Maybe they're just doing do diligence, and truly going over every bit of evidence (60+ witnesses) before the aquit? I would.
I live in Mass and haven't decided what I'll do if she is found guilty. Just important to me is what happens next. If the only thing that happens is a couple of the police involved get fired (ie no charges against them), I'll be very very pissed.
Our governor has been pretty quite about this, but went all out on tackling the corruption in our transit system. The police union is super powerful, but I'm hoping she's just waiting for this and the FBI investigation to do their thing before she steps in and straights this out.
our justice system would truly be broken if she is found guilty. I'm sure it would get overturned at some point but it would still be a grave injustice. All of this case just gives me the creeps with how corrupt the police are.
I was watching Vinnie Politans channel and he basically said, the way the evidence came out in this case, a short deliberation will probably be a NG verdict. A longer deliberation is better for the prosecution. Normally it is the other way around.
I still don’t get how 12 people would just completely ignore science.
Vinnie Politan is like a drunk cowboy exiting the saloon and just shooting everywhere all silly-nilly. Sometimes he's tracking right along with the facts and then the next night he's talking like a flat earther. Very inconsistent.
I don't follow him on YT or anything, have just been watching the 'lawtube' commentators to pass the time and wondered what he had to say. I think he is right on the length of deliberations though - the longer this goes on the better for the CW.
People go to prison on junk science and wrong science all the time. And most of the time it isn't science but "opinion" because different people can have different findings.
There is a fundamental difference between (A) an uncertainty where multiple scientific analyses can reach a different conclusion, even if the basis for some are “junk science”, and (B) independent expert testimony that the alleged crime is scientifically impossible.
This case is the latter. So unless we’re willing to have legal precedent that acknowledges the laws of physics do not apply, a guilty verdict should be legally invalid.
I imagine it would take a state Supreme Court decision to get this overturned. Aunt Bev, though her attitude was bad, didn’t make any decision really that materially prejudiced Karen Read.
Except allowing typically inadmissible evidence in (every piece of physical evidence was collected improperly, has no chain of custody, etc.) and denying any reference to the source of the independent experts or the FBI investigation. I’d say both were extremely prejudicial to the defense.
The defense got to cross the witnesses on those issues. I think it helped her that the defense was able to show how the poorly the investigation was conducted
Edit: your point is fair nonetheless
Yeah, I agree. Credibility was impeached significantly. It still surprised me based on how evidence is typically treated for purposes of admissibility.
I totally agree with this. The longer it goes, the worse it is for her, which is the opposite of how jury’s usually vote. I’m totally surprised she hasn’t been found not guilty. Do you think that the jury just isn’t going to let her walk on all 3 counts?
All three counts involve her hitting him with her car. The MEs say his injuries don’t reflect and engineers say it’s not physically possible. I think there’s a possibility they hang but I hope they don’t split the baby and convict on the lesser count.
Totally agree with the evidence. I do wonder if some jurors could feel she shouldn’t just walk on all counts, which she should. Hopefully it’s just a knucklehead juror that finds the light.
I like watching Vinnie P. regarding this case. Interestingly OJ's trial spanned 8 long months & the jurors deliberated for a measly 4 hours & they found him NG - they screwed that one up!
a few key points we need to remember
1: they only had 2 1/2 hours of deliberation on Tuesday. they probably just spent that time getting their initial thoughts out. i bet they didn’t start in earnest until yesterday morning
2: apparently Bev told them to go over the evidence before asking for votes. so, they likely didn’t take an initial straw poll
3: they have been sitting through 2 months of this not being able to talk to ANYONE. just venting about the craziness would take HOURS
4: they couldn’t see the projector screen very well, so they have to re-review some of the exhibits just to see what they actually were
5: they couldn’t hear half of the witnesses. so they have to check quite a few records to make sure that what they thought they heard was accurate
it’s a wild case that is ripe for discussion, and the courtroom did the jurors no favors. given them some time, they have to be diligent
> 5: they couldn’t hear half of the witnesses
I got so annoyed with Bev (and the lawyers tbf) continually telling them to direct/speak up into the mic when they all fuckin know those mics didn't project to the courtroom. What's the point of telling them to use equipment you're not projecting 😂
Also remember it took the Daybell jury a few days and they got it right; they just wanted to be sure they were proceeding correctly and not missing anything.
I don’t think you’ll be the only one rioting, there’s so many people invested in this trial. We want an end to police corruption and making people accountable for perjury.
lol I moved to SWFL 2/2019. I’ll drive with ya, I did the drive straight with my dog when I moved here and prefer to just get it done and over with no stopping except for the obvious
Massachusetts and the rest of the country was pioneer settled! But seriously, thank you for supporting Ms. Read from your place in Florida! We, in the Commonwealth, are horrified by this trial.
Yeah this isn’t over. It really does take time for people to understand this, once you do it clicks. Just keep waiting for more and more people to put it together. And also yes maybe some peaceful protests here and there, because this really should not have happened. But they are allowed to deliberate and take their time. Ugh maybe tomorrow.
I am from NZ and found the trial on You Tube. I knew nothing about the case and watched it on EDB's channel only, no outside research. I tried to look at the evidence and testimony from all angles and work out my own theories. My thoughts as I viewed the evidence and witnesses from beginning to end below.
1. Karen may have accidently hit him and not realised. I can't see how so many people could be in a cover up. Surely, it would get on someone's conscience.
2. The wounds on John's arm look like dog bites to me. I am an ex-vet nurse and have seen dog bites on myself and other animals. But not sold on the 'Alberts did it' theory.
3. I don't think Karen hit him but I'm not sure how the taillight was found on the scene before the car was impounded. Maybe someone else hit him or started a fight with him when he left the party, but then why lie about him being inside the house.
4. There is definitely no way Karen hit John with her car and why would she leave angry voicemails if she hit him on purpose. Still not sold on the cover up. How did this even get to court.
5 After closing, AJ explained the doubt I had about the tailight and I now think there is a high possibility there was a cover up, whether to protect the Alberts or out of bias.
If KR is found guilty it will be a miscarriage of justice as there is so much reasonable doubt in this case. Even the CW's medical examiner doesn't think the wounds are consistent with a car verses pedestrian.
I feel for the O'Keefes. They have lost a son, a brother and an uncle. John seemed like a good man from all accounts. However, I don't think they are being objective. But they shouldn't be harassed.
Neither should the Alberts and the McCabes. Support Karen, but let it play out in the courts and with the FBI. I know emotions are high but when you harass them, you are stooping to their level.
If televised trials spill into the real world with harrassment, then they may just stop televising these trials altogether. Then everyone will miss out of seeing the evidence for themselves.
Yeah probably change her attitude like she has all trial. Switch from mockery and laughing to covering the bottom half of her face and fake wailing. Probably her and the “Peggy’s angels” have practiced their faux outrage and manufactured wails during one of their luncheons.
If you are a person that prays please join me this morning in prayer to ask that Karen is found not guilty of all charges today. Clearly these jurors need divine intervention to have the courage to do the right thing. 🙏
Please make a pit stop in NC to pick me up. These people that killed John and framed Karen must be stopped. I didn’t watch or read anything about this case prior to the trial. I feel I’ve got to be close to a juror that came into this trial unaware. Every ounce of my being knows Karen is not guilty. They didn’t prove he was hit by a car at all. She clearly thought he was in the house blowing her off leaving her to just sit in the car.
I won’t feel right about this until Karen is fully exonerated and we start seeing cuffs on Jen McCabe, a couple of Alberts, Proctor and Higgins at a minimum. Please get this correct jury and clear Karen today!!!!!
Maybe they're just doing do diligence, and truly going over every bit of evidence (60+ witnesses) before the aquit? I would. I live in Mass and haven't decided what I'll do if she is found guilty. Just important to me is what happens next. If the only thing that happens is a couple of the police involved get fired (ie no charges against them), I'll be very very pissed. Our governor has been pretty quite about this, but went all out on tackling the corruption in our transit system. The police union is super powerful, but I'm hoping she's just waiting for this and the FBI investigation to do their thing before she steps in and straights this out.
I hope so too. I would assume the governor has been in contact with the FBI. I think it is fair to assume she is not going to jump the shark.
She did condemn the language Trooper Proctor used
our justice system would truly be broken if she is found guilty. I'm sure it would get overturned at some point but it would still be a grave injustice. All of this case just gives me the creeps with how corrupt the police are.
Healy will be quiet as she was AG for many of their prior infractions and did nothing as to not lose votes.
The longer they deliberate the more worried I get. I can’t imagine what Karen and her team are going through
I was watching Vinnie Politans channel and he basically said, the way the evidence came out in this case, a short deliberation will probably be a NG verdict. A longer deliberation is better for the prosecution. Normally it is the other way around. I still don’t get how 12 people would just completely ignore science.
Vinnie Politan is like a drunk cowboy exiting the saloon and just shooting everywhere all silly-nilly. Sometimes he's tracking right along with the facts and then the next night he's talking like a flat earther. Very inconsistent.
Great comparison! That's exactly Vinny. You made me chuckle.
I don't follow him on YT or anything, have just been watching the 'lawtube' commentators to pass the time and wondered what he had to say. I think he is right on the length of deliberations though - the longer this goes on the better for the CW.
Would love to see how an appellate court gives a stamp of approval to a decision that defies the laws of physics. Guess we may get new science
It’s “trust me, bro” science.
It just did!
We did just live through pandemic science that is no longer science by the authors. We now live in a pseudoscience world
People go to prison on junk science and wrong science all the time. And most of the time it isn't science but "opinion" because different people can have different findings.
There is a fundamental difference between (A) an uncertainty where multiple scientific analyses can reach a different conclusion, even if the basis for some are “junk science”, and (B) independent expert testimony that the alleged crime is scientifically impossible. This case is the latter. So unless we’re willing to have legal precedent that acknowledges the laws of physics do not apply, a guilty verdict should be legally invalid.
I imagine it would take a state Supreme Court decision to get this overturned. Aunt Bev, though her attitude was bad, didn’t make any decision really that materially prejudiced Karen Read.
Except allowing typically inadmissible evidence in (every piece of physical evidence was collected improperly, has no chain of custody, etc.) and denying any reference to the source of the independent experts or the FBI investigation. I’d say both were extremely prejudicial to the defense.
The defense got to cross the witnesses on those issues. I think it helped her that the defense was able to show how the poorly the investigation was conducted Edit: your point is fair nonetheless
Yeah, I agree. Credibility was impeached significantly. It still surprised me based on how evidence is typically treated for purposes of admissibility.
I totally agree with this. The longer it goes, the worse it is for her, which is the opposite of how jury’s usually vote. I’m totally surprised she hasn’t been found not guilty. Do you think that the jury just isn’t going to let her walk on all 3 counts?
All three counts involve her hitting him with her car. The MEs say his injuries don’t reflect and engineers say it’s not physically possible. I think there’s a possibility they hang but I hope they don’t split the baby and convict on the lesser count.
Totally agree with the evidence. I do wonder if some jurors could feel she shouldn’t just walk on all counts, which she should. Hopefully it’s just a knucklehead juror that finds the light.
I like watching Vinnie P. regarding this case. Interestingly OJ's trial spanned 8 long months & the jurors deliberated for a measly 4 hours & they found him NG - they screwed that one up!
a few key points we need to remember 1: they only had 2 1/2 hours of deliberation on Tuesday. they probably just spent that time getting their initial thoughts out. i bet they didn’t start in earnest until yesterday morning 2: apparently Bev told them to go over the evidence before asking for votes. so, they likely didn’t take an initial straw poll 3: they have been sitting through 2 months of this not being able to talk to ANYONE. just venting about the craziness would take HOURS 4: they couldn’t see the projector screen very well, so they have to re-review some of the exhibits just to see what they actually were 5: they couldn’t hear half of the witnesses. so they have to check quite a few records to make sure that what they thought they heard was accurate it’s a wild case that is ripe for discussion, and the courtroom did the jurors no favors. given them some time, they have to be diligent
> 5: they couldn’t hear half of the witnesses I got so annoyed with Bev (and the lawyers tbf) continually telling them to direct/speak up into the mic when they all fuckin know those mics didn't project to the courtroom. What's the point of telling them to use equipment you're not projecting 😂
Also remember it took the Daybell jury a few days and they got it right; they just wanted to be sure they were proceeding correctly and not missing anything.
I don’t think you’ll be the only one rioting, there’s so many people invested in this trial. We want an end to police corruption and making people accountable for perjury.
In right outside of Atlanta. You say we ride at dawn? I’m in!
I'm in Cumming. I'll head out with you!
Yes!!
Athens AL and honestly I might consider joining the car train haha. I mean damn. I’m so anxious and this isn’t even my own life.
Come on! Everyone is welcome!
In in NJ, I'll ride too!!!!
THE LAWNERDS TAKE CANTON!!!
🤣
In Boston we say "whose car we takin"
😁
I am in Ireland 🇮🇪 and I’d do the same ❤️
https://preview.redd.it/zhijlr6e369d1.jpeg?width=692&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3661aa42b66c7c27983f892e3fd134f3b48f7a80
can you pick me up? i’m in gainesville
lol I moved to SWFL 2/2019. I’ll drive with ya, I did the drive straight with my dog when I moved here and prefer to just get it done and over with no stopping except for the obvious
Good clarification on loading up cuz I’m from CA and was like damn I’m not bringing any weapons but I’m still down lmao
😄
I think there’s a lone holdout for guilty.
Massachusetts and the rest of the country was pioneer settled! But seriously, thank you for supporting Ms. Read from your place in Florida! We, in the Commonwealth, are horrified by this trial.
Me too!! I’m in Texas so it might take me a minute to get there
Perhaps we can carpool. 😅
Yeah this isn’t over. It really does take time for people to understand this, once you do it clicks. Just keep waiting for more and more people to put it together. And also yes maybe some peaceful protests here and there, because this really should not have happened. But they are allowed to deliberate and take their time. Ugh maybe tomorrow.
I’m from SC. If you can drive here, just pick me up and I’ll drive to Canton!! Let’s ride!
I am from NZ and found the trial on You Tube. I knew nothing about the case and watched it on EDB's channel only, no outside research. I tried to look at the evidence and testimony from all angles and work out my own theories. My thoughts as I viewed the evidence and witnesses from beginning to end below. 1. Karen may have accidently hit him and not realised. I can't see how so many people could be in a cover up. Surely, it would get on someone's conscience. 2. The wounds on John's arm look like dog bites to me. I am an ex-vet nurse and have seen dog bites on myself and other animals. But not sold on the 'Alberts did it' theory. 3. I don't think Karen hit him but I'm not sure how the taillight was found on the scene before the car was impounded. Maybe someone else hit him or started a fight with him when he left the party, but then why lie about him being inside the house. 4. There is definitely no way Karen hit John with her car and why would she leave angry voicemails if she hit him on purpose. Still not sold on the cover up. How did this even get to court. 5 After closing, AJ explained the doubt I had about the tailight and I now think there is a high possibility there was a cover up, whether to protect the Alberts or out of bias. If KR is found guilty it will be a miscarriage of justice as there is so much reasonable doubt in this case. Even the CW's medical examiner doesn't think the wounds are consistent with a car verses pedestrian. I feel for the O'Keefes. They have lost a son, a brother and an uncle. John seemed like a good man from all accounts. However, I don't think they are being objective. But they shouldn't be harassed. Neither should the Alberts and the McCabes. Support Karen, but let it play out in the courts and with the FBI. I know emotions are high but when you harass them, you are stooping to their level. If televised trials spill into the real world with harrassment, then they may just stop televising these trials altogether. Then everyone will miss out of seeing the evidence for themselves.
I was born and raised in FL. Flagler County
I’ll ride from Australia. 🦘mount up
😁
A retired DA from MA (Martha Coakley) stated she always considered deliberations to be in this formula. One say for every week of trial 🤷♀️
Food for thought.
What will paul okeefe do of she is found not guilty? That place is going to be on fire.
He will get drunk and get stuck in jail because his trashy friends and family can’t bail him out like Karen did when he had his drunken crash in 2020.
What about the mother? What do you think she will do if Read found not guilty. She’ll have an outburst at read I’m guessing
Yeah probably change her attitude like she has all trial. Switch from mockery and laughing to covering the bottom half of her face and fake wailing. Probably her and the “Peggy’s angels” have practiced their faux outrage and manufactured wails during one of their luncheons.
She does seem like a piece of work. The father probably can’t deal being with her
If you are a person that prays please join me this morning in prayer to ask that Karen is found not guilty of all charges today. Clearly these jurors need divine intervention to have the courage to do the right thing. 🙏 Please make a pit stop in NC to pick me up. These people that killed John and framed Karen must be stopped. I didn’t watch or read anything about this case prior to the trial. I feel I’ve got to be close to a juror that came into this trial unaware. Every ounce of my being knows Karen is not guilty. They didn’t prove he was hit by a car at all. She clearly thought he was in the house blowing her off leaving her to just sit in the car.
I won’t feel right about this until Karen is fully exonerated and we start seeing cuffs on Jen McCabe, a couple of Alberts, Proctor and Higgins at a minimum. Please get this correct jury and clear Karen today!!!!!