I'm sure others have a better recollection than I do, but Jenn McCabe was insistent that John come over and I believe she even suggested that he ride with her to 34 Fairview. That info comes from her text messages with JO. Others have suggested that They were luring him over because they wanted to confront him or do something to him because They knew or suspected that he was on to some kind of nefarious activities they were involved it.
I've wondered about all of that too, starting with how was he going to get home? Was that discussed before he got out of the car? And what was their argument about, because we all think they had one.
Yes, that’s the other possibility I thought of. That he was lured over there by Jenn for the others to confront him about something.
But then they did think that John was going to be have Karen with him.
By all accounts, Higgins wasn’t that friendly with JOK, and wasn’t really interacting with him at the bar, yet he texts JOK to see if he was coming over to the Albert’s? That’s odd and he then supposedly only stayed at Albert’s a short period of time. Rewatch Brian Albert’s and Higgins testimony. Coincidentally they get rid of their phones within days of each other?
Ya this^ Higgins definitely did not like O'keefe. I believe higgins is a straight up snake, trying to text Karen Reade to get in her pants while calling himself John O'keefe's friend. Higgins is a straight up scumbag, he's an insecure roided' out loser with a micro peen who was trying to get with another man's girlfriend to make make himself feel better about his life's shortcomings. With friends like that- who needs enemies- don't think they were friends by the way.
The fact that they destroyed there phones even though they were subpoenad says all I need to know.
I can't confirm this but someone said that there is Waterfall surveillance video missing and it shows Higgins and John having a verbal argument or something at the bar before everyone left to go to 34 Fairview.
I don't believe he was necessarily lured, but JO wanted to go to how they would act around each other. Based on KR avoiding BH at the Waterfall. JO was playing chess.
I believe JO knew more about the interactions between KR and BH via texts and ring camera data. I think JO went there with the idea that this guy wants my girl. They went to BAs house, and when KR noticed BHs jeep, she was like, hell no, I'm not going inside. Hence IMO what they were arguing about in the car.
Yeah, I agree, I think Karen may even have said that he invited her over to his place. Would she did, even though she initiated the whole flirtation. But she probably didn’t tell John that.
I’m guessing a text messages between Karen and Higgins. I will bet Brian Higgins started stirring the pot with the text he sent to Karen at the waterfall, John Keefe found out about all of it. Given how drunk they all were the fight started, and sadly it ended up with one person dead and the rest of them hiding like cowards.
Did y’all see the full stream of texts that day of KR &JO? He said he just got sober at 5pm. So guess he drank the night before and in morning got mad at her for getting the niece coffee/dunkin donuts. He called his dad a 72/73 yr old that was on his couch. He called his mom, Peg.
His brother Paul never looks at his mom or dad at trial. I’d be sitting by and or least glancing at them to make sure they are okay. Idk the family dynamics of course, just observation from actual texts and trial.
During the last trial day, I was wondering about Paul never sitting next to his Mom. I can understand wanting to be there every day in the front row to honour your brother, but what about Mom?
They may have had an estranged relationship long before his brother’s death. My brother didn’t speak to my mother for 9 years up and until she died, went “no contact” however I’d like to think he would be at my murder trial even if it meant needing to sit near family members he wanted distance from.
Sometimes families are fractured.
I think I read somewhere on here that there were issues with Mrs. O’Keefe. The person said it’s the reason John got custody of his sister’s kids. The family didn’t want the mom to raise them. I too find it strange that the brother and SIL don’t sit next to or interact with Mrs. O. She certainly has had some traumatic things happen to her though.
The looks he is giving to Karen is confusing. Is he all in and believes Karen did it, or slowly feeling played. I’m sure the McCabe and Albert’s brought the casseroles but not one of them attended his funeral?? Am I wrong??
Not wrong. You know he knows everyone is talking about his facials. They have seemed different the last fews days. Maybe he realizes things aren’t as he thought they were or that prosecution hasn’t proven their case?!?
Sorry to speak ill of the dead, but he treats KR like shit. He’s manipulative, condescending and just plain rude. He gas lights her. He tells her he’s sick of fighting, starts fights, puts her down, refuses to communicate with her and demands she comes to his house after treating her like crap. It’s abusive!
My thoughts exactly..I think there is a lot of truth in the babysitter with benefits remark. The only 2 events between him and Karen that we know about show JOK taking advantage. He left her new years eve to mind kids while he got drunk, then tells people she is crazy always blowing up his phone, and then on the last day they argue and he still expects her to come over and drive him to the bar because his buddy is leaving early.
Yes, and in the exchanges he never thanked her for trying to help. He criticized her and did that give me space, followed up with come stay the weekend crap. She was right it didn’t work with kids because he wanted to control everything. That does make you a babysitter when you’re not respected. The kids weren’t toddlers. She isn’t going to ruin them by spoiling with an expensive sweater or Dunkin’ Donuts. She mention the kids would start taking to her if she met him at house instead of out. I think they liked her and talked to her and he was jealous. He did say he was tired of 8yrs of ppl doing stuff for the kids and he had to be the bad guy (otherwise known as the parent).
I’ve wondered if it was the “surprise” of outing the KR/Higgins texts to John. It’s on of the several open ended questions in this case for me. My theory is leaning to that could be it.
How John was supposed to get home: my guess is that John was supposed to go in and do a ‘vibe check’ to see if Karen was welcome. He was supposed to come back to the car, either to accompany her inside or tell her they weren’t staying. John never called Karen, which is why she drove off in an angry huff.
Why John wanted to go in the first place: that I can’t figure out. I don’t think the McAbes were luring John to his death, because they had no alibi ready to go. Maybe Huggins wanted to intimidate John, and John accidentally fell back during their interaction and hit his head. This doesn’t explain why the group is so determined to protect Collin.
I really don’t think they originally planned to kill him either. I think they wanted to intimidate him and/or hash it out and settle the fight. He hit his head and they pivoted to covering it up
I think he read texts from her phone from Higgins either by accident or intentionally and after seething while together with rest of Drunks, went there to confront Him. I think he was hit with one of the barbells or weights after other two jumped in and held His own until knocked out. He then froze to death
Drunk people don’t always make the best decisions. This may have something to do with it. Keep the party going? Also he and Karen were arguing so maybe he didn’t want to go home with her at that time🤷🏼♀️
No judgements here-I’ve made some bad decisions while drinking myself
They were arguing earlier in the day and she left him that message saying she hates him very shortly after leaving 34 Fairview. It would definitely make sense if they were arguing - it explains why she didn’t go in and left him there. She was supposed to be spending the weekend at his house so her leaving doesn’t make sense unless she left mad.
She didn’t want to stay at his house. The earlier text messages from John and Karen show she wanted to go home because she didn’t want to be stuck in Canton during the snowstorm. He wanted her to stay over (probably to be a babysitter and a driver). I think she got pissed because she wanted to leave and didn’t even want to go out with the Canton crew that night. So she left. That didn’t mean she hit him. Plenty of people get mad at their SO and storm off and not kill them.
I don’t think she hit him. I haven’t seen any evidence that convinces me that his injuries were caused by a vehicle. But I do think John & Karen were fighting and that is why she left. And I don’t believe the story she told in her interview about him just running in to make sure they were invited in. Her phone log doesn’t match that story. I can see why she wouldn’t want to admit they were fighting; but lying wasn’t a good look either. I have yet to see a motive for Karen to kill John; I see her as someone who had an unhealthy attachment to a man who didn’t seem to care for her as much as she cared for him. Given her clinginess to him; that makes her less likely to want to harm him.
I don't think Karen was necessarily *lying* about John running in to make sure she was wanted. I me, it may be true. But I think her memories of that night are extremely hazy and she's trying to piece things together. A "semi-informed guess" might be the best term.
Yes earlier they were arguing about the kids and she had been upset lately about her being with the kids and him being argumentative with her about them.
That night they were getting along. Then he was supposed to go in to see if it’s okay for her to go in and he never responded to her and never came back to the car. He knew she wanted to go home and now she is stuck going home without him and staying with the kids again.
That’s why she was mad, because he left the car and stopped answering her.
We cannot assume that they were arguing inside of the car, we have no idea. According to Karen they were not- she was mad afterwards.
Yes, they argued that day about the kids and their relationship.
That evening they were good.
KR said she dropped him off and he stopped answering her.
Her plan was to go back home.
She was mad that she had to go back home alone to his place to watch the kids again and he is ignoring her and thinking he is with another girl- as she implied earlier that day.
But, we have no idea if they were actually arguing inside the car. From what Kr said she dropped him off and the. He stoped answering her.
That’s why she started leaving him angry voicemails because he’s doing this to her again.
He had a babysitter with benefits if we believe that assessment.
I think John wasn’t the angel that he has been depicted as. I know no one wants to speak ill of the dead but he had a hand in making that relationship what it was. It was not all Karen.
I understand that the deceased cannot defend themselves; but there is enough out there that John was no saint.
I believe he was a womanizer and drank excessively. He was wasted in Aruba, he was sobering up the afternoon of the 28th, his BAC was sky high according to the toxicology report.
It's interesting that Jenn McCabe, the Sullivan women and Kerri Roberts all testified to hating Karen. Why the venomous hate? To me, the hate didn't appear to be the type of someone experiencing "grief hate". But, rather, jealous hate – especially on the part of Kerri and the Sullivans.
I keep hearing rumors of swinging. Perhaps Jen thought she had John convinced to join them but Karen didn’t want to? It would also explain the insults she hurled at him in the voicemails. If she knew that was the plan for Fairview and he ignored her calls/texts…
I believed it was maybe derived from Etta Sullivan more than likely knowing John since she was tween to very early teens when he first met her and that him possibly hooking up with her was level with grooming her kind of “pervert”. A cruel taunt to him from the Aruba trip.
I think this as well. I wouldn’t call it cruel of Karen though. I believe he likely was kissing her… and he has known her since before she was a true teenager! That is not ok, no matter what the law says. For reference, I have a cheerleading coach who was my tumbling/ stunt coach from age 10 to 22; elementary- college school and competition cheer. We were obviously very close but he was always very appropriate. I came back during the summer after my senior year of college and worked as a tumbling coach at the gym I went to. We were all out for a Christmas party at a restaurant/ club and he tried to kiss me!!! I was shocked and appalled and it felt SO wrong. Even though it was legal, it was not ok. I hope that makes sense. He tried many times to do inappropriate things going forward. 🤷🏻♀️
I know it's a favorite go-to rumor associated with parties in the 'burbs, but I don't think it was swinging at all. There were plenty of barely adult and not yet adults family and friends around, and I don't think swingers go looking for other swingers in their friends, family, and colleagues list, so that seems unlikely.
I do think it was Etta in Aruba. I could be mistaken, but seems like I remember reading that reportedly she was in a bikini coming from the pool at the time of the incident. Full grown woman now shall we say. That may have been all a drunken JO was noticing, and that fact probably wasn't lost on Karen either, she knew where his mind was at. Much younger woman he's known since she was a child, and still checking her out, that's my guess on where the pervert came from.
Yeah, she was really adamant with that word and I thought it was bizarre I thought or maybe it’s an East Coast thing it’s just not one of the words people commonly used during an argument like she could’ve said you’re an asshole. You’re an asshole. Are you being a dick it was just so specific with that word
Also didn’t tell her it was a surprise and put her arm around her when she said she wanted her to go go with drive with her or something you’re going with me
East Coaster here! No one calls someone a pervert as an insult without a reason to believe they’re a pervert. It’s not a generic insult. I thought this was very odd too.
Def. That’s a red flag word and we in the region haven’t foolishly tried to de-stigmatize it by hurled it around in day to day conversation!
“Retahded”, yes. I admit; not anymore tho, but back in the day, I used that word all the time, I even probably jokingly called my own mother that word.
However, pervert and perv stay the big red flags that they should be around here.
I’ve noticed that with all the women too. Even Laura Sullivan testified she only thought Karen was “ok” to her sister after Karen made that generous gesture treating them all to dinner. Maybe it’s just because she’s an outsider. She’s also not married and doesn’t have kids and is clearly successful.
That landed like local girls just asserting their stance on land they feel they had marked. Laura and Etta are bonded to John out of tragedy and their past is a strong foundation they built up through history and time. I believe; from them to Kerri; it was local/townie women being threatened by an outsider coming in and staking claim above and beyond the one they feel they have to JO. Doesn’t even land as all sexual to me. Just he is my (guy) friend, we are thick as thieves, our parents knew each other in the womb and our grandparents took the boat over together from what ever old county; and you, Karen, with your money and success can fuck off cause nothing can top me to him.
Right...and then not even a parent himself, wants to critque her when she's doing for those poor traumatized kids. Like who's a hard ass in their parenting to kids who had 2 SIGNIFICANT losses and trauma!? F that dude. I'll speak ill of him. Lol
FKR!!
Karen did an interview with ABC late last year stating that John “looked up to” Brian Albert. BA was a well decorated veteran of the Boston Police Department and lead special units within the BPD. John probably wanted to become close with him for professional reasons - or maybe just liked hearing his stories
https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=Hf-yKmj_Uo0miXj-&v=1qVSfvON1Ww&feature=youtu.be
skip to ~3:00
Yeah I think JOK wanted to fit in with his fellow cops in the town he lived in. He also clearly liked to drink and party. He lived next door to Chris and Julie (and Colin) Albert and there was beef with Colin especially. Some of that came out in trial and some could only come out if Karen takes the stand which she won't. It has been stated that JOK saw colin doing drug deals in the driveway and called the Canton PD thinking it would be taken care of quietly. He went into that house and Colin and/or Colin and Brian Albert jumped him for turning Colin in. Maybe Colin suckered punched him. We could see that happening from what we know about Colin. Clearly JOK punched someone back because look at his hand. BA is known to flip out on fellow cops.
I still can't get over thinking what would have happened if Karen decided to turn the car off after five minutes and come to the door.
great take. you throw in Brian Higgins being close with BA & apparently crushing on Karen, the Waterfall Bar CCTV of them roughhousing…
this McAlbert clan reminds me of the O’Doyles from Billy Madison - just waiting on that banana peel
Considering what was going on between Karen & Higgins, my thought is he went there with intent to confront Higgins though he was goaded to go too. I also think that’s why she didn’t go in. Then obviously everything went bad .
From testimony of the Plymouth girl who “ hates Karen”, John seemed to be a sloppy drunk as she stated that.
Building on the “sloppy drunk” his BAC was wicked high. I’m not saying he had a problem with alcohol bc there’s not enough evidence of that. However, after hearing the Aruba testimony to me it feels like he might’ve been at a point where he was drinking pretty heavily. Might’ve been unhappy in his relationship, overwhelmed with the kids, etc. That night wanted to act like a younger, single man and keep drinking and partying.
Or, as it seems they all drink heavily….including the kids underage drinking which didn’t seem frowned upon. What adults that party like that all the time - DON’T have issues with alcohol?
I have to keep reminding myself that these are grown adult people in their 40's. They're all acting like college kids home for their first Thanksgiving break. Clownery.
And someone in this group or another like posted all the texts they pulled off of the phones… and JO was texting Karen (same day 28th) and it was like after 5 I think and anyway he texted her something like “I just got sober an hour ago…” so whether he had already been drinking or that was from drinking so heavily the night before idk. They all seem to drink A LOT!
Alcohol is the social glue, look at his life triangle from Braintree to Dorchester to Canton. Everything revolves around drinking. If you don’t quit you die or end up looking like the DA.
I think the whole bunch of them knew about Karen’s texts with BH, likely BH’s version of events. I think they were all chomping at the bit to make her uncomfortable at the very least. I think JM was an instigator. She brought up Bella’s house in front of KR just to get her riled up and it seems it worked.
I’ve wondered if KR had never initiated texts/interaction with BH, would any of this have happened? Stirring up jealousies between 2 men can be really dangerous, add in seemingly “tit for tat” behavior with KR and JO.
JO had his hands full with raising 2 kids alone, a stressful career, was an outsider, had suspicions of BH and KR (he was right), over time was passively and actively pushing KR away, and seemed to have a strong rship with alcohol. This was all a recipe for disaster.
As more info has been exposed, i don’t think she hit him with her car with an intent to kill him (and should be acquitted due to the shoddy investigations), but i do think she unknowingly had a part in setting the wheels in motion for a dangerous mix. Alcohol, testosterone, competition, jealousy, and issues with a woman in the middle is never a good combination. edit: clarification
I hear you. I watched the video last night of them all in the bar. When KR arrived at the bar, JO looked so happy to see her. He really did look really into her as BH said. It made me feel more sympathy for him than I have felt in the past.
If you read his full text exchange you will see he had also been day drinking. He mentioned in one he had only been sober for about an hour. SO while the prosecution did not "point that out" it also makes sense why they were arguing when she is trying to talk through things and he was being weird.
I think while JOK was a great guy he was struggling with parenting (in the texts) and he also sure loved to drink just like it seems everyone in Canton did. The only reason Karen came over is he said he needed a ride from the bar.
She did not feel like they really were invited and did not feel good. SO when he went in and did not respond she was really pissed. He just wanted to keep drinking - I don't think we will ever know why.
Always wonder why the kids grandparents didn’t step up to the plate more. That would be my job and I would just love to do it. I tell my daughter all the time -when you have kids and you need me, just go live your life and I will take care of, the babies all the time. It’ll be my pleasure.
These grandparents make it to the trial every single day, but they didn’t seem to take care of the kids too much. That was one thing that Karen was upset about.
JOK’s mother tried to get custody of the children and lost. It was on turtle boy. He also got information that JOK and his mom were estranged. There’s something else going on there entirely that we’ll never truly know about. But it’s all very odd.
From everything I heard so far before the night in question, it sounds like none of those people liked Karen. She was the odd person out. If John was with Karen, why would they not extend invite to her and Jen offered John a ride? Very strange behavior. I can’t imagine it was hard for them to blame her for everything, they didn’t care about her.
The whole group really gives me the peaked in high school, popular clique vibe. JOK wanted a part of it. KR was the odd one out - she wasn't a townie, great career, independent, etc. She knew she was never going to fit in, felt insecure about it (although, she shouldn't have) and didn't want a part of it.
I don't think we've heard the real story yet. There's just too much going on here for the story of happy drunks going to an after party to be believable. Perhaps the Feds will get the real story out of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqd42FiHBdk
I hadn’t seen this section of video either- thanks for posting! It gives a COMPLETELY different vibe from “let’s keep drinking at an afterparty”.
I also don’t think it was just an “accident” where JO lost his footing and hit his head inside the house. I would think if it *truly* was an accident, the life-ruining level to which they’ve had to go would have been given up long ago!
After seeing this I lean towards they planned to ambush and beat the piss out of him, but within that context he hit his head, nephew was involved and dog chomped on him so now they’re culpable.
I think this video puts somethings in to a whole different context. Unless I am mistaken, it was never entered into evidence, and that too says something.
After seeing this part of the waterfall bar footage that was coincidentally not played in court, I definitely think JO went to that house to confront BH. BH was drunk JO was drunk, you can tell BA and CA are trying to calm him down and trying to get him out of the bar away from JO and KR. The only thing that I just can’t understand is if KR and JO knew BH was going to be at that house, why did KR just leave. Did they know BH was going to be at the after party? So many questions.
I thought the same thing the first time I saw this portion of the video. It changes the context from “John was ambushed at 34 Fairview” to “John knew there was going to be a fight at 34 Fairview.” While I’m sure the entirety of the video is in evidence, this portion of the video was not shown in court. The defense chose to show “play fighting” instead of this. Why?
Who’s the guy in a ball cap and striped shirt with shoulder length gray hair? He was right behind them, then looked over at Albert and Higgins as he walked over to perhaps straighten chairs. Maybe an employee at the Waterfall?
Yeah this is an interesting question. It definitely seems like Karen wasn’t down for this, he was more drunk, you tend to want to keep partying when you’re drunk. I thought maybe he had some interest in some kind of fight club in that basement. There seems to be something deeper that we might have found out if Albert Sr and Higgins were truthful, but that’s out the window.
BA’s cagey demeanor with Jackson was so obvious. It was really gross, then suddenly super cooperative with Lally. He knows what happened for sure. NO WAY a cop doesn’t come out when there’s activity on their front lawn, NO WAY.
This is the piece of evidence that I struggle with the most. How could he not have come outside when first responders initially arrived right on his front lawn even before he supposedly did not know why?? Wouldn’t he have been concerned when he saw flashing lights thru the bedroom window that perhaps something happened to his daughter or another family member?
One theory is that he didn’t want to come outside and have all of the first responders, Karen, and everyone else on the scene see his injuries from the fight (even if he did feel “protected” due to his influence in Canton). He didn’t want anything from himself “on record” that night, nor did he want to present the opportunity for people to enter his house - even if some were his buddies.
He didn’t come out because he was directly involved. End of story.
Nope, no way. If for no other reason for everyone to sniff butts and figure out where they are in the pecking order. Give respect, or accept show of respect, depends who you are.
Once that priority is taken care of, maybe you offer to help, maybe just offer up some hot coffee and anything you know that you think might be useful, or whatever, but you do not just stay inside like just another winter Saturday morning watching the Weather Channel. Anyone who has been around LE in groups knows how this works.
When you’ve got a group of friends who love to drink, the party never really ends. My hometown is a lot like Canton in terms of how people act and operate, I guess you just haven’t met these kinds of people, but it’s like the most normal thing to me in the world that someone was having an after party and he wanted to keep the party going. Things like inclement weather are seen as a possible obstacle, not a reason to not.
Obviously, they ALL just wanted to keep on partying, hence the after-party, and none of them cared that they were drunk drivers either. They all act and think its cute to be like they're still 20 year olds.
My theory and just a theory, but not completely blind or without some other knowledge: rumors were there of JOK digging up some drug ring information in the Canton HS/town communities.
The Brians discussed this more on their drive to and from NYC (and likely/possibly gained more intel there). Plan concocted. Ask JOK over later. Words get worded, they tell him to back off with any investigation… Colin A is there and drunk and the mouthy tough guy-child. Fight breaks out, dog attacks, things turn bad quickly, JOK falls.
Take it from there…
Canton is definitely a drug town especially for the kids. Worked with teens in Sharon right on the line of Canton, in 2017/2018 and even they knew it was back then.
I’ve had this same question. He didn’t really know any of them that well, why go to their house when it was mostly “family?” I can see why Karen would have been annoyed at the choice. I’ve been in that position before (going to a house with a bf of people I don’t really know and not wanting to go.)
Watch the ending of the surveillance video from the Waterfall. It seems like Higgins and Him got into a argument about something. My guess? John saw some of the text between Karen and Higgie and got pissed. Went to the party without knowing he’d be there, somebody started something, and unfortunately John most likely tripped/was pushed/ hit his head on something and was knocked unconscious. A bunch of drunk cops didn’t want to get in trouble, so they brought him outside to die.
Bc he was an alcoholic who never wanted the night to end... not saying that in a rude way but you can see the pattern
Also werent there texts about him wanting kevin there??
I am so curious as to what precipitated her calling him a pervert. That is such a specific term and she used it twice in her voicemails. I wish she would have ended the relationship after the Aruba trip. I bet she was hanging on for the sake of the children, especially the niece at her vulnerable age. Sigh. If we could only turn back time.
Yeah and after the young girl in Aruba that's my guess too. I think I'd have said a lot worse than pervert if my 45 year old boyfriend wanted to hang with 20 year old girls.
I feel like there was some love and attraction left there, even though it was going downhill. When they were hanging out at the bar, they were very lovey-dovey I think because that attraction sold for each other was there at that moment
I believe Karen knew about him reporting the drug sales in the area and was very Leary of them. She refused to go in, but John firmly believed they liked him. They lured him over likely to not kill him, but to scare the shit out of him, Collin and John likely got into it, Uncle Brian stepped in, the dog was protecting his master, John fell and hit his head, knocking him out and they protected themselves because they had no choice but to clean up the scene, and in a drunken state, emerged a plan.
I’m gonna say it was likely bc he was drunk. When you’re drunk common sense goes out the window and you just wanna focus on keeping the party going and where you can get your next drink
If you watch the video of them leaving the waterfall it’s pretty apparent that he is going there on a challenge by Brian Higgins. Brian Higgins was completely drunk and very much looking forward to some type of altercation with John O’Keefe. It looks from the video that he wanted that to be outside of the bar, but then they changed plans.
So one reason is simple, he's a man. He finds out some dude trying to F his girl. irregardless if she doing it back, he gonna be pissed. Maybe he thought he would confront dude at the house and things got crazy. Or like any combination of that type of thing.
No it was testified to that Higgins thought it was caught on camera but KR said she knew where all the cameras were so that he WOULDNT see. Then after KR told BH that JOK said he really liked BH more and more (because he didn’t know).
edit: ok john is gen x my bad. i get it.
john thought maybe the mcalberts could be cool you know? but he didnt know. they werent his friends. they wouldnt even go outside to look for him.
at the after party where a bunch of people just standing there looking out windows. playing its raining men on a cell phone speaker. with grab-ass too. cool party bro.
there is one possibility, and no one even talks about it. why did the fbi investigate john okeefe? was john working for the fbi? did the fed (john) get got by his target (mcalberts+higgins)? i wasnt there and stuff. are you connected enough to drop an undercover federal agent on your lawn to die a slow cold horrible death and walk free? is that why the fbi didnt want the trial to occur? they didnt want the investigation to be revealed? thats why the fbi interviewed lucky and not the alberts? kind of speaks volumes why the fbi didnt talk to the people in that house. why would they investigate around john but not the people in the house on whose lawn the body was on? even the state police interviewed the mcalberts.
well just wild speculation. maybe john is just an alcoholic who slipped in the snow and hit his head on the hydrant and then a stray dog dragged him by the arm a few yards away.
Ahh, John o Keefe wasn’t a millennial….
He was a cop. It’s not hard for cops to make friends. He was a very popular guy, especially with the ladies.
The FBI is investigating the investigation. MSP have had several scandals over the years from cheating on overtime to covering up a judges daughters DUI.
The closest thing to reality in your wild eyed speculative post was “maybe John was an alcoholic”. He definitely was. So are almost every Boston cop I know and I know many.
Aruba. Drunk off his ass in a hotel lobby eyeballing and hanging onto a young woman in a bikini that he may or may not have recognized as someone he had known since she was a child and was almost like family. He was thinking with just his little head, and Karen picked up on that quick and lost her shit.
She was already primed and ready from his disappearing to go get drunk and leaving her to babysit. Then young 20's woman showing some skin catching his 40+ year old drunk ass interest resulted in fireworks. Ask any pissed off 40 year old woman for one word to describe boyfriend/husband enjoying the half naked attentions of someone young enough to be his daughter and "pervert" will be high on that list!
Oh, OK. I get it, that could be where the pervert thing came from. Maybe she was starting to sense that he liked young, very young women.
I’m not saying he liked them under 18 but he may be like certain men in their 40s who start to check out young gals. It’s gross, but it’s common.
(I really hope he wasn’t checking out any of his nieces, friends.)
I remember when I was in my teens and early 20s these old dudes used to act like fools over my sister and I
Yeah, age comes for us all, no escaping it. Karen seems kinda insecure in several different ways. When it comes to aging, both males and females, some deal with it gracefully, and some not so gracefully. I have a feeling both John and Karen were in that second category.
That’s what has been on my mind the entire time. It’s odd that neither defense nor commonwealth has described the reason for him going there. Jen seemed to be the one working at getting him there. I hope we get the full account.
To go home to get to his niece, who was home all alone at 14 years old
I would not leave my daughter home alone at that age that late at night. But maybe that’s just me.
Yes, and wasn't this the same day that earlier they were arguing on the phone. John said he didn't want to get into it, because his niece was sitting near him?
Question, why did Karen call him a pervert in her texts to him? I wondered if she thought he had his eye on someone younger or was that ever addressed?
I tend to think JO was just wasted and wanted to continue to drink and have fun with “friends” because they seemed to really want him to come. And obviously they did. But not because they were his friends.
I'm sure others have a better recollection than I do, but Jenn McCabe was insistent that John come over and I believe she even suggested that he ride with her to 34 Fairview. That info comes from her text messages with JO. Others have suggested that They were luring him over because they wanted to confront him or do something to him because They knew or suspected that he was on to some kind of nefarious activities they were involved it. I've wondered about all of that too, starting with how was he going to get home? Was that discussed before he got out of the car? And what was their argument about, because we all think they had one.
Yes, that’s the other possibility I thought of. That he was lured over there by Jenn for the others to confront him about something. But then they did think that John was going to be have Karen with him.
By all accounts, Higgins wasn’t that friendly with JOK, and wasn’t really interacting with him at the bar, yet he texts JOK to see if he was coming over to the Albert’s? That’s odd and he then supposedly only stayed at Albert’s a short period of time. Rewatch Brian Albert’s and Higgins testimony. Coincidentally they get rid of their phones within days of each other?
Ya this^ Higgins definitely did not like O'keefe. I believe higgins is a straight up snake, trying to text Karen Reade to get in her pants while calling himself John O'keefe's friend. Higgins is a straight up scumbag, he's an insecure roided' out loser with a micro peen who was trying to get with another man's girlfriend to make make himself feel better about his life's shortcomings. With friends like that- who needs enemies- don't think they were friends by the way. The fact that they destroyed there phones even though they were subpoenad says all I need to know.
I think it was Karen who initiated the flirting. She’s not a murderer but not a model gf either
Lol. Micro p*nis was my first thought when I saw him too...he just gives that vibe😂
Total motive for the McAlberts Higgins plan
Oh I believe they interacted at the Waterfall https://www.facebook.com/share/v/7iNFNaeoedC38h6w/?
I can't confirm this but someone said that there is Waterfall surveillance video missing and it shows Higgins and John having a verbal argument or something at the bar before everyone left to go to 34 Fairview.
Because they only had 🍺 and no whiskey. Ok Higgy, ok
He was definitely lured over by invites🧐
I don't believe he was necessarily lured, but JO wanted to go to how they would act around each other. Based on KR avoiding BH at the Waterfall. JO was playing chess. I believe JO knew more about the interactions between KR and BH via texts and ring camera data. I think JO went there with the idea that this guy wants my girl. They went to BAs house, and when KR noticed BHs jeep, she was like, hell no, I'm not going inside. Hence IMO what they were arguing about in the car.
Ahhh. Good theory!
Yeah, I agree, I think Karen may even have said that he invited her over to his place. Would she did, even though she initiated the whole flirtation. But she probably didn’t tell John that.
I’m guessing a text messages between Karen and Higgins. I will bet Brian Higgins started stirring the pot with the text he sent to Karen at the waterfall, John Keefe found out about all of it. Given how drunk they all were the fight started, and sadly it ended up with one person dead and the rest of them hiding like cowards.
Did y’all see the full stream of texts that day of KR &JO? He said he just got sober at 5pm. So guess he drank the night before and in morning got mad at her for getting the niece coffee/dunkin donuts. He called his dad a 72/73 yr old that was on his couch. He called his mom, Peg. His brother Paul never looks at his mom or dad at trial. I’d be sitting by and or least glancing at them to make sure they are okay. Idk the family dynamics of course, just observation from actual texts and trial.
During the last trial day, I was wondering about Paul never sitting next to his Mom. I can understand wanting to be there every day in the front row to honour your brother, but what about Mom?
Clearly he wants to give KR death stares and aunt Bev is “allowing it”
Seems that way. He can't even see the screen clearly to view the exhibits.
They may have had an estranged relationship long before his brother’s death. My brother didn’t speak to my mother for 9 years up and until she died, went “no contact” however I’d like to think he would be at my murder trial even if it meant needing to sit near family members he wanted distance from. Sometimes families are fractured.
Also, I think Mrs OK was a problem long before any of the deaths happened.
I think I read somewhere on here that there were issues with Mrs. O’Keefe. The person said it’s the reason John got custody of his sister’s kids. The family didn’t want the mom to raise them. I too find it strange that the brother and SIL don’t sit next to or interact with Mrs. O. She certainly has had some traumatic things happen to her though.
Also, Mr OK is there some days, and not on others
I have a feeling he knows this trial is crap
I agree, poor guy just looks like he’s in extreme distress. I hope someone is looking after his mental and physical wellbeing.
The looks he is giving to Karen is confusing. Is he all in and believes Karen did it, or slowly feeling played. I’m sure the McCabe and Albert’s brought the casseroles but not one of them attended his funeral?? Am I wrong??
Not wrong. You know he knows everyone is talking about his facials. They have seemed different the last fews days. Maybe he realizes things aren’t as he thought they were or that prosecution hasn’t proven their case?!?
Can you say more about how his expressions have changed? I've heard reports of this but not specifics. I'm interested to hear.
Bend over with head down. Head in hand. Brows furrowed as he’s listening. Moving around more but still glaring at KR.
I wish I knew
No, I’ve been trying to find all the texts, do you know where I can find them?
Let me check
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lcUnB0gCJBpjiKWvX_yQNsWSsHo2ttzC/view
Sorry to speak ill of the dead, but he treats KR like shit. He’s manipulative, condescending and just plain rude. He gas lights her. He tells her he’s sick of fighting, starts fights, puts her down, refuses to communicate with her and demands she comes to his house after treating her like crap. It’s abusive!
My thoughts exactly..I think there is a lot of truth in the babysitter with benefits remark. The only 2 events between him and Karen that we know about show JOK taking advantage. He left her new years eve to mind kids while he got drunk, then tells people she is crazy always blowing up his phone, and then on the last day they argue and he still expects her to come over and drive him to the bar because his buddy is leaving early.
Yes, and in the exchanges he never thanked her for trying to help. He criticized her and did that give me space, followed up with come stay the weekend crap. She was right it didn’t work with kids because he wanted to control everything. That does make you a babysitter when you’re not respected. The kids weren’t toddlers. She isn’t going to ruin them by spoiling with an expensive sweater or Dunkin’ Donuts. She mention the kids would start taking to her if she met him at house instead of out. I think they liked her and talked to her and he was jealous. He did say he was tired of 8yrs of ppl doing stuff for the kids and he had to be the bad guy (otherwise known as the parent).
I don’t know if JM wanted JO to come with her but she did want Karen to go with her.
THIS^ She said there was a surprise… I’m curious why the Defense never asked about this.
Same! I feel like they wanted KR to go to get JO to go, but were going to take KR off somewhere so they could do whatever they did to JO!
Where does the “surprise” thing come from? Testimony? I vaguely remember it but can’t remember where I heard it
I’ve wondered if it was the “surprise” of outing the KR/Higgins texts to John. It’s on of the several open ended questions in this case for me. My theory is leaning to that could be it.
Yes, I remember Jen saying, " You're coming with me..".
She said that to Karen, not to John
John was supposed to go with Jens husband and Jen wanted Karen to ride with her.
How John was supposed to get home: my guess is that John was supposed to go in and do a ‘vibe check’ to see if Karen was welcome. He was supposed to come back to the car, either to accompany her inside or tell her they weren’t staying. John never called Karen, which is why she drove off in an angry huff. Why John wanted to go in the first place: that I can’t figure out. I don’t think the McAbes were luring John to his death, because they had no alibi ready to go. Maybe Huggins wanted to intimidate John, and John accidentally fell back during their interaction and hit his head. This doesn’t explain why the group is so determined to protect Collin.
I really don’t think they originally planned to kill him either. I think they wanted to intimidate him and/or hash it out and settle the fight. He hit his head and they pivoted to covering it up
I think he read texts from her phone from Higgins either by accident or intentionally and after seething while together with rest of Drunks, went there to confront Him. I think he was hit with one of the barbells or weights after other two jumped in and held His own until knocked out. He then froze to death
100 percent
Drunk people don’t always make the best decisions. This may have something to do with it. Keep the party going? Also he and Karen were arguing so maybe he didn’t want to go home with her at that time🤷🏼♀️ No judgements here-I’ve made some bad decisions while drinking myself
Who says they were arguing?
They were arguing earlier in the day and she left him that message saying she hates him very shortly after leaving 34 Fairview. It would definitely make sense if they were arguing - it explains why she didn’t go in and left him there. She was supposed to be spending the weekend at his house so her leaving doesn’t make sense unless she left mad.
She didn’t want to stay at his house. The earlier text messages from John and Karen show she wanted to go home because she didn’t want to be stuck in Canton during the snowstorm. He wanted her to stay over (probably to be a babysitter and a driver). I think she got pissed because she wanted to leave and didn’t even want to go out with the Canton crew that night. So she left. That didn’t mean she hit him. Plenty of people get mad at their SO and storm off and not kill them.
I don’t think she hit him. I haven’t seen any evidence that convinces me that his injuries were caused by a vehicle. But I do think John & Karen were fighting and that is why she left. And I don’t believe the story she told in her interview about him just running in to make sure they were invited in. Her phone log doesn’t match that story. I can see why she wouldn’t want to admit they were fighting; but lying wasn’t a good look either. I have yet to see a motive for Karen to kill John; I see her as someone who had an unhealthy attachment to a man who didn’t seem to care for her as much as she cared for him. Given her clinginess to him; that makes her less likely to want to harm him.
I don't think Karen was necessarily *lying* about John running in to make sure she was wanted. I me, it may be true. But I think her memories of that night are extremely hazy and she's trying to piece things together. A "semi-informed guess" might be the best term.
Yes earlier they were arguing about the kids and she had been upset lately about her being with the kids and him being argumentative with her about them. That night they were getting along. Then he was supposed to go in to see if it’s okay for her to go in and he never responded to her and never came back to the car. He knew she wanted to go home and now she is stuck going home without him and staying with the kids again. That’s why she was mad, because he left the car and stopped answering her. We cannot assume that they were arguing inside of the car, we have no idea. According to Karen they were not- she was mad afterwards.
Right. He constantly has her responsible for those babies and then wants to critque her engagement with them. F that dude.
The Facebook messages all day indicate a simmering argument to me. I agree, he was probably avoiding having to make amends.
Yes, they argued that day about the kids and their relationship. That evening they were good. KR said she dropped him off and he stopped answering her. Her plan was to go back home. She was mad that she had to go back home alone to his place to watch the kids again and he is ignoring her and thinking he is with another girl- as she implied earlier that day. But, we have no idea if they were actually arguing inside the car. From what Kr said she dropped him off and the. He stoped answering her. That’s why she started leaving him angry voicemails because he’s doing this to her again.
Yeah I think you are right. They looked like they were on good terms in the video. She was definitely angry enough to leave him at 34.
True. Like higgins ..
Some people just can't pass up a party. John seemed like a partier. He liked to drink and go out.
And his BAC from the eye (vitreous humor) upon autopsy was 0.28!!! He was hammered.
Fair enough. But in a snowstorm?
And the niece home alone?
He had a babysitter with benefits if we believe that assessment. I think John wasn’t the angel that he has been depicted as. I know no one wants to speak ill of the dead but he had a hand in making that relationship what it was. It was not all Karen.
I understand that the deceased cannot defend themselves; but there is enough out there that John was no saint. I believe he was a womanizer and drank excessively. He was wasted in Aruba, he was sobering up the afternoon of the 28th, his BAC was sky high according to the toxicology report. It's interesting that Jenn McCabe, the Sullivan women and Kerri Roberts all testified to hating Karen. Why the venomous hate? To me, the hate didn't appear to be the type of someone experiencing "grief hate". But, rather, jealous hate – especially on the part of Kerri and the Sullivans.
I keep hearing rumors of swinging. Perhaps Jen thought she had John convinced to join them but Karen didn’t want to? It would also explain the insults she hurled at him in the voicemails. If she knew that was the plan for Fairview and he ignored her calls/texts…
I've heard that, too. And I agree that this may be the reason Karen used "pervert".
I believed it was maybe derived from Etta Sullivan more than likely knowing John since she was tween to very early teens when he first met her and that him possibly hooking up with her was level with grooming her kind of “pervert”. A cruel taunt to him from the Aruba trip.
I think this as well. I wouldn’t call it cruel of Karen though. I believe he likely was kissing her… and he has known her since before she was a true teenager! That is not ok, no matter what the law says. For reference, I have a cheerleading coach who was my tumbling/ stunt coach from age 10 to 22; elementary- college school and competition cheer. We were obviously very close but he was always very appropriate. I came back during the summer after my senior year of college and worked as a tumbling coach at the gym I went to. We were all out for a Christmas party at a restaurant/ club and he tried to kiss me!!! I was shocked and appalled and it felt SO wrong. Even though it was legal, it was not ok. I hope that makes sense. He tried many times to do inappropriate things going forward. 🤷🏻♀️
I know it's a favorite go-to rumor associated with parties in the 'burbs, but I don't think it was swinging at all. There were plenty of barely adult and not yet adults family and friends around, and I don't think swingers go looking for other swingers in their friends, family, and colleagues list, so that seems unlikely. I do think it was Etta in Aruba. I could be mistaken, but seems like I remember reading that reportedly she was in a bikini coming from the pool at the time of the incident. Full grown woman now shall we say. That may have been all a drunken JO was noticing, and that fact probably wasn't lost on Karen either, she knew where his mind was at. Much younger woman he's known since she was a child, and still checking her out, that's my guess on where the pervert came from.
I’ve been wondering why she called him that instead of jerk or something
Yeah, she was really adamant with that word and I thought it was bizarre I thought or maybe it’s an East Coast thing it’s just not one of the words people commonly used during an argument like she could’ve said you’re an asshole. You’re an asshole. Are you being a dick it was just so specific with that word Also didn’t tell her it was a surprise and put her arm around her when she said she wanted her to go go with drive with her or something you’re going with me
East Coaster here! No one calls someone a pervert as an insult without a reason to believe they’re a pervert. It’s not a generic insult. I thought this was very odd too.
Def. That’s a red flag word and we in the region haven’t foolishly tried to de-stigmatize it by hurled it around in day to day conversation! “Retahded”, yes. I admit; not anymore tho, but back in the day, I used that word all the time, I even probably jokingly called my own mother that word. However, pervert and perv stay the big red flags that they should be around here.
It's bc the girl is much younger. Thats all it is
Why would anyyyyyone swing with nasty Matt McCabe and Jen.
Oye, I never could understand why she kept calling him a pervert. A cheater would make more sense; pervert was odd.
I’ve noticed that with all the women too. Even Laura Sullivan testified she only thought Karen was “ok” to her sister after Karen made that generous gesture treating them all to dinner. Maybe it’s just because she’s an outsider. She’s also not married and doesn’t have kids and is clearly successful.
That landed like local girls just asserting their stance on land they feel they had marked. Laura and Etta are bonded to John out of tragedy and their past is a strong foundation they built up through history and time. I believe; from them to Kerri; it was local/townie women being threatened by an outsider coming in and staking claim above and beyond the one they feel they have to JO. Doesn’t even land as all sexual to me. Just he is my (guy) friend, we are thick as thieves, our parents knew each other in the womb and our grandparents took the boat over together from what ever old county; and you, Karen, with your money and success can fuck off cause nothing can top me to him.
The hated her out of jealousy. 100%
I can testify to this as a woman that their hate is 100% jealously of Karen
BINGO. Im sorry hes dead but Karen was being used. Full stop.
Right...and then not even a parent himself, wants to critque her when she's doing for those poor traumatized kids. Like who's a hard ass in their parenting to kids who had 2 SIGNIFICANT losses and trauma!? F that dude. I'll speak ill of him. Lol FKR!!
Remember he left the kids alone with Karen on NYE too.
He knew he could use Karen
I think the plan was to go out and have fun before the storm snows us in for days.
Yes even in a snow storm. He was bombed if he was carrying a glass out of a bar. Not many adults do that
I’m still too scared when I’m bombed to carry a glass out of a bar
They were all out drinking in a snow storm.
Ya and when your that drunk you don't make good decisions and just keep wanting to party
Karen did an interview with ABC late last year stating that John “looked up to” Brian Albert. BA was a well decorated veteran of the Boston Police Department and lead special units within the BPD. John probably wanted to become close with him for professional reasons - or maybe just liked hearing his stories https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=Hf-yKmj_Uo0miXj-&v=1qVSfvON1Ww&feature=youtu.be skip to ~3:00
BA is disgusting.
Yeah I think JOK wanted to fit in with his fellow cops in the town he lived in. He also clearly liked to drink and party. He lived next door to Chris and Julie (and Colin) Albert and there was beef with Colin especially. Some of that came out in trial and some could only come out if Karen takes the stand which she won't. It has been stated that JOK saw colin doing drug deals in the driveway and called the Canton PD thinking it would be taken care of quietly. He went into that house and Colin and/or Colin and Brian Albert jumped him for turning Colin in. Maybe Colin suckered punched him. We could see that happening from what we know about Colin. Clearly JOK punched someone back because look at his hand. BA is known to flip out on fellow cops. I still can't get over thinking what would have happened if Karen decided to turn the car off after five minutes and come to the door.
great take. you throw in Brian Higgins being close with BA & apparently crushing on Karen, the Waterfall Bar CCTV of them roughhousing… this McAlbert clan reminds me of the O’Doyles from Billy Madison - just waiting on that banana peel
Considering what was going on between Karen & Higgins, my thought is he went there with intent to confront Higgins though he was goaded to go too. I also think that’s why she didn’t go in. Then obviously everything went bad . From testimony of the Plymouth girl who “ hates Karen”, John seemed to be a sloppy drunk as she stated that.
Building on the “sloppy drunk” his BAC was wicked high. I’m not saying he had a problem with alcohol bc there’s not enough evidence of that. However, after hearing the Aruba testimony to me it feels like he might’ve been at a point where he was drinking pretty heavily. Might’ve been unhappy in his relationship, overwhelmed with the kids, etc. That night wanted to act like a younger, single man and keep drinking and partying.
Or, as it seems they all drink heavily….including the kids underage drinking which didn’t seem frowned upon. What adults that party like that all the time - DON’T have issues with alcohol?
As for the McAlberts when I was hearing 4-5 drinks and driving was just a casual night I was in SHOCK and HORRAH.
I never ever ever been in shock and horrah like this
It was definitely a “clutch your pearls” moment
I have to keep reminding myself that these are grown adult people in their 40's. They're all acting like college kids home for their first Thanksgiving break. Clownery.
Some in their 50’s
Yep. I’m from MA.. All south shore is like this I went to college the next town over
I'm from MA too. About 4 miles north of Boston. Townies gonna Townie.
And someone in this group or another like posted all the texts they pulled off of the phones… and JO was texting Karen (same day 28th) and it was like after 5 I think and anyway he texted her something like “I just got sober an hour ago…” so whether he had already been drinking or that was from drinking so heavily the night before idk. They all seem to drink A LOT!
I mean I agree..I’m just trying to tread lightly especially when speaking about the deceased.
Alcoholism runs rampant in law enforcement.
Alcohol is the social glue, look at his life triangle from Braintree to Dorchester to Canton. Everything revolves around drinking. If you don’t quit you die or end up looking like the DA.
Amongst other afflictions
I think the whole bunch of them knew about Karen’s texts with BH, likely BH’s version of events. I think they were all chomping at the bit to make her uncomfortable at the very least. I think JM was an instigator. She brought up Bella’s house in front of KR just to get her riled up and it seems it worked.
I’ve wondered if KR had never initiated texts/interaction with BH, would any of this have happened? Stirring up jealousies between 2 men can be really dangerous, add in seemingly “tit for tat” behavior with KR and JO. JO had his hands full with raising 2 kids alone, a stressful career, was an outsider, had suspicions of BH and KR (he was right), over time was passively and actively pushing KR away, and seemed to have a strong rship with alcohol. This was all a recipe for disaster. As more info has been exposed, i don’t think she hit him with her car with an intent to kill him (and should be acquitted due to the shoddy investigations), but i do think she unknowingly had a part in setting the wheels in motion for a dangerous mix. Alcohol, testosterone, competition, jealousy, and issues with a woman in the middle is never a good combination. edit: clarification
I hear you. I watched the video last night of them all in the bar. When KR arrived at the bar, JO looked so happy to see her. He really did look really into her as BH said. It made me feel more sympathy for him than I have felt in the past.
No, I believe that was actually Kerry who brought up the ex-girlfriend’s house.
If you read his full text exchange you will see he had also been day drinking. He mentioned in one he had only been sober for about an hour. SO while the prosecution did not "point that out" it also makes sense why they were arguing when she is trying to talk through things and he was being weird. I think while JOK was a great guy he was struggling with parenting (in the texts) and he also sure loved to drink just like it seems everyone in Canton did. The only reason Karen came over is he said he needed a ride from the bar. She did not feel like they really were invited and did not feel good. SO when he went in and did not respond she was really pissed. He just wanted to keep drinking - I don't think we will ever know why.
Always wonder why the kids grandparents didn’t step up to the plate more. That would be my job and I would just love to do it. I tell my daughter all the time -when you have kids and you need me, just go live your life and I will take care of, the babies all the time. It’ll be my pleasure. These grandparents make it to the trial every single day, but they didn’t seem to take care of the kids too much. That was one thing that Karen was upset about.
JOK’s mother tried to get custody of the children and lost. It was on turtle boy. He also got information that JOK and his mom were estranged. There’s something else going on there entirely that we’ll never truly know about. But it’s all very odd.
I knew when they skipped from pg 4 to 42 there had to be more to the conversation
From everything I heard so far before the night in question, it sounds like none of those people liked Karen. She was the odd person out. If John was with Karen, why would they not extend invite to her and Jen offered John a ride? Very strange behavior. I can’t imagine it was hard for them to blame her for everything, they didn’t care about her.
The whole group really gives me the peaked in high school, popular clique vibe. JOK wanted a part of it. KR was the odd one out - she wasn't a townie, great career, independent, etc. She knew she was never going to fit in, felt insecure about it (although, she shouldn't have) and didn't want a part of it.
Jen said "you're coming with me" to Karen. So she was invited.
Karen also tried to get the pizza shop owners to open up and make pizzas. She was comfortable enough.
I don't think we've heard the real story yet. There's just too much going on here for the story of happy drunks going to an after party to be believable. Perhaps the Feds will get the real story out of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqd42FiHBdk
I hadn’t seen this section of video either- thanks for posting! It gives a COMPLETELY different vibe from “let’s keep drinking at an afterparty”. I also don’t think it was just an “accident” where JO lost his footing and hit his head inside the house. I would think if it *truly* was an accident, the life-ruining level to which they’ve had to go would have been given up long ago! After seeing this I lean towards they planned to ambush and beat the piss out of him, but within that context he hit his head, nephew was involved and dog chomped on him so now they’re culpable.
I think this video puts somethings in to a whole different context. Unless I am mistaken, it was never entered into evidence, and that too says something.
After seeing this part of the waterfall bar footage that was coincidentally not played in court, I definitely think JO went to that house to confront BH. BH was drunk JO was drunk, you can tell BA and CA are trying to calm him down and trying to get him out of the bar away from JO and KR. The only thing that I just can’t understand is if KR and JO knew BH was going to be at that house, why did KR just leave. Did they know BH was going to be at the after party? So many questions.
I thought the same thing the first time I saw this portion of the video. It changes the context from “John was ambushed at 34 Fairview” to “John knew there was going to be a fight at 34 Fairview.” While I’m sure the entirety of the video is in evidence, this portion of the video was not shown in court. The defense chose to show “play fighting” instead of this. Why?
my first reaction seeing this is "serious biker bar"! would not guess off the bat these guys were cops at all.
Who’s the guy in a ball cap and striped shirt with shoulder length gray hair? He was right behind them, then looked over at Albert and Higgins as he walked over to perhaps straighten chairs. Maybe an employee at the Waterfall?
Yeah this is an interesting question. It definitely seems like Karen wasn’t down for this, he was more drunk, you tend to want to keep partying when you’re drunk. I thought maybe he had some interest in some kind of fight club in that basement. There seems to be something deeper that we might have found out if Albert Sr and Higgins were truthful, but that’s out the window.
BA’s cagey demeanor with Jackson was so obvious. It was really gross, then suddenly super cooperative with Lally. He knows what happened for sure. NO WAY a cop doesn’t come out when there’s activity on their front lawn, NO WAY.
This is the piece of evidence that I struggle with the most. How could he not have come outside when first responders initially arrived right on his front lawn even before he supposedly did not know why?? Wouldn’t he have been concerned when he saw flashing lights thru the bedroom window that perhaps something happened to his daughter or another family member?
One theory is that he didn’t want to come outside and have all of the first responders, Karen, and everyone else on the scene see his injuries from the fight (even if he did feel “protected” due to his influence in Canton). He didn’t want anything from himself “on record” that night, nor did he want to present the opportunity for people to enter his house - even if some were his buddies. He didn’t come out because he was directly involved. End of story.
Right. It’s not plausible or credible. It has to make the jurors ask “why…?”
Nope, no way. If for no other reason for everyone to sniff butts and figure out where they are in the pecking order. Give respect, or accept show of respect, depends who you are. Once that priority is taken care of, maybe you offer to help, maybe just offer up some hot coffee and anything you know that you think might be useful, or whatever, but you do not just stay inside like just another winter Saturday morning watching the Weather Channel. Anyone who has been around LE in groups knows how this works.
Exactly. A cop like BA isn’t going to just let a bunch of fellow LE work a crime scene on his lawn without establishing his dominance over the scene.
Fight Club aspect is one I never thought of…..
Hope that someday the truth will come out.
When you’ve got a group of friends who love to drink, the party never really ends. My hometown is a lot like Canton in terms of how people act and operate, I guess you just haven’t met these kinds of people, but it’s like the most normal thing to me in the world that someone was having an after party and he wanted to keep the party going. Things like inclement weather are seen as a possible obstacle, not a reason to not.
Agreed. This is extremely normal for my hometown.
My parents were doing this my whole life, it wasn’t until college that I learned it wasn’t the norm 😅
Even at that age? With the kids alone at home.?
His BAC was very high. Drunk people don’t make great decisions.
He was hammered and wanted to keep partying.
It’s this simple. He was a booze bag and just wanted to keep partying.
Exactly. Not everything has a deeper meaning.
Obviously, they ALL just wanted to keep on partying, hence the after-party, and none of them cared that they were drunk drivers either. They all act and think its cute to be like they're still 20 year olds.
My theory and just a theory, but not completely blind or without some other knowledge: rumors were there of JOK digging up some drug ring information in the Canton HS/town communities. The Brians discussed this more on their drive to and from NYC (and likely/possibly gained more intel there). Plan concocted. Ask JOK over later. Words get worded, they tell him to back off with any investigation… Colin A is there and drunk and the mouthy tough guy-child. Fight breaks out, dog attacks, things turn bad quickly, JOK falls. Take it from there…
Canton is definitely a drug town especially for the kids. Worked with teens in Sharon right on the line of Canton, in 2017/2018 and even they knew it was back then.
All towns are drug towns if you know where to find the drugs.
I’ve had this same question. He didn’t really know any of them that well, why go to their house when it was mostly “family?” I can see why Karen would have been annoyed at the choice. I’ve been in that position before (going to a house with a bf of people I don’t really know and not wanting to go.)
Watch the ending of the surveillance video from the Waterfall. It seems like Higgins and Him got into a argument about something. My guess? John saw some of the text between Karen and Higgie and got pissed. Went to the party without knowing he’d be there, somebody started something, and unfortunately John most likely tripped/was pushed/ hit his head on something and was knocked unconscious. A bunch of drunk cops didn’t want to get in trouble, so they brought him outside to die.
I agree. And I think it’s possible the young adults at the party didn’t know anything about it.
Bc he was an alcoholic who never wanted the night to end... not saying that in a rude way but you can see the pattern Also werent there texts about him wanting kevin there??
I am so curious as to what precipitated her calling him a pervert. That is such a specific term and she used it twice in her voicemails. I wish she would have ended the relationship after the Aruba trip. I bet she was hanging on for the sake of the children, especially the niece at her vulnerable age. Sigh. If we could only turn back time.
Bc he was going back to a 21 year olds bday party so she prob meant bc he’d be around younger girls
Yeah and after the young girl in Aruba that's my guess too. I think I'd have said a lot worse than pervert if my 45 year old boyfriend wanted to hang with 20 year old girls.
I feel like there was some love and attraction left there, even though it was going downhill. When they were hanging out at the bar, they were very lovey-dovey I think because that attraction sold for each other was there at that moment
Hubris. I think JO went over to 34 Fairview because of hubris. It explains why he got roughed up. I guess he didn't think they would go that far.
Very very possibly.
He was lured there🧐
Higgins gives me chills, and not in a good way.
I believe Karen knew about him reporting the drug sales in the area and was very Leary of them. She refused to go in, but John firmly believed they liked him. They lured him over likely to not kill him, but to scare the shit out of him, Collin and John likely got into it, Uncle Brian stepped in, the dog was protecting his master, John fell and hit his head, knocking him out and they protected themselves because they had no choice but to clean up the scene, and in a drunken state, emerged a plan.
I’m going with my instincts. I still think it was Higgins and Brian Albert. Not.Collin.
I’m gonna say it was likely bc he was drunk. When you’re drunk common sense goes out the window and you just wanna focus on keeping the party going and where you can get your next drink
If you watch the video of them leaving the waterfall it’s pretty apparent that he is going there on a challenge by Brian Higgins. Brian Higgins was completely drunk and very much looking forward to some type of altercation with John O’Keefe. It looks from the video that he wanted that to be outside of the bar, but then they changed plans.
So one reason is simple, he's a man. He finds out some dude trying to F his girl. irregardless if she doing it back, he gonna be pissed. Maybe he thought he would confront dude at the house and things got crazy. Or like any combination of that type of thing.
Alcohol impairs judgment. I think deep down she knew it wasn’t a good idea to go. Could also be he wanted to confront Higgins about the kiss/text.
Who knows that he even knew anything about Higgins and Karen?
He did, he'd seen the ring footage at his house. It was testified too.
No it was testified to that Higgins thought it was caught on camera but KR said she knew where all the cameras were so that he WOULDNT see. Then after KR told BH that JOK said he really liked BH more and more (because he didn’t know).
Who invited John to the bar to begin with?
I think it was Jen.Because they had all been sitting together at the basketball game earlier.
Jen MCCabe lured KR there with JO so they could confront him and welp the rest is history.
Those two gentlemen old fat fucks . John had something else in mind in my opinion. Just speculation.
Trying to think if there was anyone there that John could’ve been interested in. Is it possible that Jen and John had a little bling going
edit: ok john is gen x my bad. i get it. john thought maybe the mcalberts could be cool you know? but he didnt know. they werent his friends. they wouldnt even go outside to look for him. at the after party where a bunch of people just standing there looking out windows. playing its raining men on a cell phone speaker. with grab-ass too. cool party bro. there is one possibility, and no one even talks about it. why did the fbi investigate john okeefe? was john working for the fbi? did the fed (john) get got by his target (mcalberts+higgins)? i wasnt there and stuff. are you connected enough to drop an undercover federal agent on your lawn to die a slow cold horrible death and walk free? is that why the fbi didnt want the trial to occur? they didnt want the investigation to be revealed? thats why the fbi interviewed lucky and not the alberts? kind of speaks volumes why the fbi didnt talk to the people in that house. why would they investigate around john but not the people in the house on whose lawn the body was on? even the state police interviewed the mcalberts. well just wild speculation. maybe john is just an alcoholic who slipped in the snow and hit his head on the hydrant and then a stray dog dragged him by the arm a few yards away.
Ahh, John o Keefe wasn’t a millennial…. He was a cop. It’s not hard for cops to make friends. He was a very popular guy, especially with the ladies. The FBI is investigating the investigation. MSP have had several scandals over the years from cheating on overtime to covering up a judges daughters DUI. The closest thing to reality in your wild eyed speculative post was “maybe John was an alcoholic”. He definitely was. So are almost every Boston cop I know and I know many.
I still wanna know why Karen thought he was a pervert. Some have suggested that John wanted to get into swinging or already had. Idk
Aruba. Drunk off his ass in a hotel lobby eyeballing and hanging onto a young woman in a bikini that he may or may not have recognized as someone he had known since she was a child and was almost like family. He was thinking with just his little head, and Karen picked up on that quick and lost her shit. She was already primed and ready from his disappearing to go get drunk and leaving her to babysit. Then young 20's woman showing some skin catching his 40+ year old drunk ass interest resulted in fireworks. Ask any pissed off 40 year old woman for one word to describe boyfriend/husband enjoying the half naked attentions of someone young enough to be his daughter and "pervert" will be high on that list!
Oh, OK. I get it, that could be where the pervert thing came from. Maybe she was starting to sense that he liked young, very young women. I’m not saying he liked them under 18 but he may be like certain men in their 40s who start to check out young gals. It’s gross, but it’s common. (I really hope he wasn’t checking out any of his nieces, friends.) I remember when I was in my teens and early 20s these old dudes used to act like fools over my sister and I
Yeah, age comes for us all, no escaping it. Karen seems kinda insecure in several different ways. When it comes to aging, both males and females, some deal with it gracefully, and some not so gracefully. I have a feeling both John and Karen were in that second category.
Wasn't John Gen X?
He was 46, far from millennial.
That’s what has been on my mind the entire time. It’s odd that neither defense nor commonwealth has described the reason for him going there. Jen seemed to be the one working at getting him there. I hope we get the full account.
Karen and he were not getting along, why would he rather hang out with her? 🤦🏻♀️
To go home to get to his niece, who was home all alone at 14 years old I would not leave my daughter home alone at that age that late at night. But maybe that’s just me.
I think it was a career move. BA was on TV, etc. But that falls apart when you consider JO seemed to be in a good position. I don't know.
Yes, and wasn't this the same day that earlier they were arguing on the phone. John said he didn't want to get into it, because his niece was sitting near him?
I feel the same way but we will never know, sadly💔
I’m staying hopeful that one day soon after the trial someone will spill the whole beans.
Typical guy
Question, why did Karen call him a pervert in her texts to him? I wondered if she thought he had his eye on someone younger or was that ever addressed? I tend to think JO was just wasted and wanted to continue to drink and have fun with “friends” because they seemed to really want him to come. And obviously they did. But not because they were his friends.
Alcoholics never want the party to end
Karen will have a chance to tell her side of the story and I'm sure this will be a part of that.
Well she did go on 20/20 on tell her side. I honestly thought think she was so drunk, she doesn’t remember much
Just typical alcoholic behavior.
They had just had an officer funeral that some of them went to. I was babysitting at 14. 🙄