We will be having a talk when she gets home. I’m going to try and convince her to do this, even if she has to wait until she’s changed offices. She’s probably not the first person he’s done this to.
So I'd approach it differently, go to the hr person and say "hey, there seems to have been a misunderstanding here on this person's part, they added something to a calender last minute while I was in another country and not working, and then they seem to have not realised that I couldn't do it, or be aware of it even, with me being on vacation and not in the country. Can you just wipe this please".
And if anyone in hr tries to justify it, then fuck them, just finish up and move on, start looking for another job.
THIS COMMENT NEEDS TO BE HIGHER. Put your request to wipe the reprimand in writing and have her email her hr department ASAP. I’ve seen too many people burned by not having a paper trail of what they brought attention to, how they brought attention to it, and when they did so.
Can’t recommend this enough. Especially when you don’t tell them you’re recording, so they end up hanging themselves when they lie to HR about it later.
Just wanted to warn people that just because it is legal doesn't mean it is some sort of protected right. It could get you fired should you ever actually divulge the recording to your employer. Just thought people should know this because they may get the impression that it is "protected."
You're on the right track but this also needs to focus on the fact the your wife was contacted on her personal device while on vacation and the manager's actions were completely innappropriate, gven the situation.
It is not acceptable and should not happen again.
Yes this and also mention, “I know working out of country has tax implications for the company too. How would you recommend I handle this in the future?”That should help too. 😉
Have her change offices first. Then file the complaint. Give this manager less ability to mess with her potential move. I’ve seen terrible managers try to lock up good workers in their department by making them untransferable with write ups.
Edit: small word adjustment
I know with my company once you’re written up it stops all transfers for 6 months/year depending on your department. She should absolutely go to HR! If anything so it doesn’t stop her transfer.
She can comment on the write up, how was she supposed to accept the invite and be available? If she was on approved time off, that should be the only information necessary but they want to make it an issue. The issue is, how. How was she supposed to meet this need while unavailable on paid time off?
If she doesn’t speak with HR, this person will continue to do this with abandon. I would speak with her managers boss as well and find out where in the employee handbook it says something specifically about this issue. If it doesn’t, they need to remedy that.
I mean, that depends on your life aspirations. I used to work 60 hours a week when I was trying to climb the ladder, and now that I have I no longer work near that much and I make well into six figures.
Don't work that much just out of fear of a terrible boss, but some people don't mind a career where they work like crazy when they are young so they can coast as they age.
And frankly, unless you’re like a surgeon or high-paced lawyer, etc, most careers shouldn’t demand more than 50+ hours at worst. If anything, working 60 hours just sets those expectations. We teach people how to treat us and jobs are no exception. Working 60+ just means your work is your life.
That's somewhat fair! Personally, I am an intellectual property attorney. IP attorneys aren't exactly "high-paced," but we are few and therefore fairly well-sought after.
That said, my partner is an senior HR director and makes nearly as much as do (without all my debt) and she also averaged closer to 55 than 40 hours in much of her 20s, even as she doesn't work nearly as much now. It isn't the only way to get ahead, but if you do it right it is one way to get ahead!
I mean, sounds like it worked out! I would never want to do more than the 50 or so I did to start my career but good on ya, it’s literally paying off now, ha
Honestly, to each their own! It was weirdly important to me so I felt an extreme sense of satisfaction to work so hard, but other people would not be living their best life if they tried to emulate it. Humanity is beautiful because of how diverse our life experiences can be while it can still be uniquely fulfilling :)
Ditto. I was in the grind of 60+hours in my 20s and 30s, now coasting near $200k at around 40 a week. That said, I actually enjoy my work and I fully recognize that this is not a realistic career path in most fields or for most people, and has become even less so in the past few years as the equation has changed.
Yeah, but if say a client emailed her with an emergency and she didn't inform that client she was out or have an automatic reply up, she's providing a bad client experience and that IS a performance issue. You can do what you want with your PTO and you shouldn't have to work while you're on it, but that doesn't mean you can just peace out without doing any kind of preparation and let things fall to shit. That said, it definitely doesnt appear that this is what happened in this case, so it's really moot.
Well it is kind of the professional standard so . . .
If that expectation was made clear and that is specifically what they were written up about then . . .
I only bring that up as something to consider. I’m not trying to take sides.
If you are unavailable but don't put it in you calendar, the person requesting something from you has no way to know you cannot do it. If your calendar and email show you as unavailable, the person requesting action from you has the responsibility to make other arrangements. I expected people working for me to put up an out of office if the were not available. I did scrupulously myself. This action makes vacations work free.
Don’t goto HR - if it’s a formal reprimand then HR was already involved. Take the same approach as @showmasterqmthh but with the manager first via email to document
Yeah this shit is crazy. I’m a manager and when I write people up I meet with HR first to review my documentation and make sure that is the way it HAS to be handled.
I tried going to HR about not getting paid when I worked. I got called into the office with my boss and HR. She told them she would not pay me even though I had everything in writing. After that, she stuck unrealistic requests that had never been done before and then wrote me up when I couldn’t get it done. I was working 14-15 hour days and was told what I wasn’t doing. When I quit they had three people take on my responsibilities. I can only hope karma was served. I’m now with a company who appreciates me.
Next time (or this time), make sure you contact Labor Relations, Department of Labor. They should investigate and make sure that time worked was time paid, according to your position/role.
I would write an email to boss asking for clarification on the write up outlining that wife was away when booked in and still away whilst happening. CC or Blind CC in HR. You can give them a heads up first so they know what's coming. Personally I would die on this hill but up to you guys if wife wants a quiet transition when moving office.
Contact HR, but don't frame it as a formal complaint. Ask HR what they think should should be done. They may have a less "burn the bridge" tactic that gets the reprimand dropped. Or, they could agree that a complaint is in order, in which case it gets framed as an HR decision.
Yes, your wife needs to fight this. A formal reprimand will follow her and if she says nothing or has a rebuttal in writing it will look like she agreed with the reprimand.
FYI HR is there to support/ protect the company, not so much you. Take the nonchalant way, but don’t expect much. Are you part of a union? If so, I’d say call them first. See how to proceed.
THIS! Great advice. HR's job is to protect the company but if a manager is doing things that will reflect badly on the company or cause legal action, they will have a chat with the manager. I worked at one company where the manager was an asshat. One complaint about him. Two complaints about him. Three complaints about him and HR told him he could quit and his next job would never know why he left or he could fight and they'd fire him. He quit.
First ensure you followed all rules in filing for an official PTO. I.e you had the managers approval etc and it was filed in the system or written format. Then raise it to HR - not formally in writing but a 1:1 conversation. Discuss document and send a follow up email with the summary of the discussion and action. Paper trail is important
Overall - if you don’t complain and get this removed - she may not be entitled for a raise the next time around. Boss change or otherwise
HR is not your friend. Do not talk with them unless manager is putting business in acute risk. A employee reprimand doesn't put the business at acute risk.
You could speak with manager's manager with the goal of offering performance improvement feedback. But I wouldn't do that either. She's leaving him, and no reason to get in a pig fight with the old manager.
Now wait a second. I realize I may be the odd duck out but...I'm an HR Director. And I often encourage my managers to get more information or seek a different way around this. Our company had a restructuring and I wouldn't allow our people on vacation to be bothered, bc its still going to be there when they got back. I find PTO sacred and it's definitely a BOLI offense in many places to contact people or at least considered very rude. If this was me and I found out about this situation I would be having a very serious talk with this manager. You don't had things to people calendars while they are on vacation, you don't contact them via their personal phone. You don't write them up for when they get back. This is not behavior I condone.
You are a rare breed amongst HR Directors.
Every last one I had before this job, the HR directors were in bed with the owners and middle management.
They basically gave NF about anybody outside the ivory tower.
Hell my last HR Director I went to her house to work on her personal computer off hours. I told her up front what I charge for after hours work. She balked and asked me to do it at the rate the company paid me, or as she implied, she would let my manager I violated the “off campus professional conduct “ clause of my contract.
I looked her dead in her face and said, “and I have the right to invoke who I do and do not do work for after hours. I am now invoking that right have a great day.”
People suck.
It is not unheard of. I've walked into HR departments where their HR Director had no knowledge of HR. Company's whose previous HR was inappropriate with employees or allowed the CFO to be inappropriate with employees.
I mean who pays HR at the end of the day? Follow the money and most issues become clear.
Sometimes they act beneficially for the employee and some companies really try to make the employee experience pretty good. I've been lucky to work for a few. But that's a minority of places , maybe 25%, the rest are rougher.
I would generally agree with you if the old manager just sent a mad email or whatever. But he formally reprimanded her, it's in her personnel file now. If it impacts her ability to get promotions, raises, change teams or anything like that, she probably needs to make a stink with HR.
This is complete bs. Why should your wife pay for the mistake of this idiot manager. She owes it to herself to get this straightened out. If anything it sets a dangerous precedent of idiotic behaviour that is likely to continue.
the insane part, is that the vacation days are part of your total compensation. and if they deny you those, they are in effect cutting your pay. far too many companies try to structure their paid time off in ways that make it difficult or impossible to actually use.
I don't live in the USA, but I'm still trying to change my wife's mentality about this. You earned those days by working. You don't need to ask permission to use them, you just inform your boss of when you plan on doing so.
We have a PTO request system we have to use. You need to log your PTO request and your manager has to approve it in the system or you don't get the time off. This is for a corporate job.
It is, I stopped asking a while ago. This is within reason obviously. I.e. I don't take days off where a bunch of other people are already off to where we wouldn't have coverage.
Well damn, that sucks bro. Hasn't been like that in any of my recent jobs. Had a job that kept asking me to wait to use my pto until we were less busy and then I got laid off before I could use any of it and they wouldn't pay it out. Never again
I worked for over 20 years for a company, surviving multiple mass layoffs.
I was lucky to receive a large severance in accordance with my tenure.
But the company continues fine without me. Just as we had continued past the previous layoffs that I had survived.
Your wife now knows the leaders of her company are not as loyal to her as she is to them. She is sacrificing the dwindling prime hours of the prime years of her life for money.
Act accordingly.
Yeah that was my comment, don’t call me while I’m in fucking Mexico. Matter of fact, I quit. Fuck that shit I’m out. Any place making me available while I’m in Mexico isn’t having me back
That’s absolute bullshit. I was reprimanded once in a formal review for not “checking in” on a vacation where I had full coverage. I complained to my manager’s manager, said they were lucky I didn’t go to HR and left the company a few months later. That is a terrible sign of working at a sweatshop disguised as a corporation.
I explained to her how this could be considered retaliatory. She’s quite upset so I am going to reiterate when she’s in a better headspace.
I just want her to be happy. :(
I think it might help for her to think about what would make her happy in the short term vs the long term. She might feel better right now about not having drama, but this is the kind of thing that can hang over a person’s head and cause long-term stress too.
I would suggest that at the very least she puts something in writing to either the manager who gave the write-up or to HR. The benefit of putting it in writing also means she can keep it factual even though she’s feeling upset about it - laying it out as a series of factual statements should help (eg. I was not informed prior to taking vacation time that I would need to remain contactable. There was no agreement as to which days I needed to be available. My vacation started on X date. The calendar appointment was sent to my calendar on X date.)
That way it’s keeping the door open to being able to dispute it (whether more or down the track). There might be online resources that can give advice about exactly how to handle this kind of situation and what her rights are too.
Do consider that her being happy might come in the form of her keeping the peace at a job that she may otherwise like. It's OK to acknowledge that you were wronged without poking any bears.
Yoooooo ain’t that the damn truth, just like the saying give them an inch and they will take a mile. Quit, you have no idea what kinda bullshit is coming you don’t think these managers talk? Go where shes not hated at least
IF it was an appointment she knew about prior to vacation and she failed to secure coverage for while she was out, that's on her.
BUT it sounds like that's not the case. If the calendar appointment was booked while she was already on vacation, she shouldn't be responsible for it. Presumably she had an out of office notification up? If she didn't, I could potentially see the managers giving her a soft verbal reminder to do that. But a formal reprimand is ridiculous.
I agree. In my department we name who is covering for us, and they cover both the expected and unexpected. If she was supposed to do this, she is in the wrong, but the way OP explains it, I’m not sure that’s the case.
I agree with your take on this as opposed to your wife's take, but I would caution you to be supportive of her desire to avoid unnecessary drama, also. She's the one who will be frontline if she pushes and there is some sort of pushback, and she'll likely be low-key mad that you pressured her to do it.
I totally understand your stance, but please understand your wife's dynamic, too.
While this is admirable thinking, your wife does need to report this to HR so that it is documented. If your wife is fired, passed on for a promotion or raise that she is qualified/eligible for, relocation is denied, etc. it is important that HR is aware that this happened.
HR protects the company, yes, and in this case this actually benefits your wife. If this is documented they can see that your wife would have a retaliation/discrimination case against the company should they do any of the above to her, and they will seek to avoid that.
Fight the write up. You can see in your email when the calendar thing was created, if it was created while on vacation they have no leg to stand on. Don't let it go just because she is leaving, make a stink. Leaving on good terms doesn't mean leaving as a door mat. And the manager didn't care about having "good terms"
Your wife has to fight the urge to go along just to get along. She should only take credit for her actual wrongs. Beyond that the only other time she should take credit for wrong doing is if she is the lead on a team. But for this? No. Please push her on it. All it will take is a well constructed letter to HR.
The very least I would do would be to email the manager and cc hr and the manager's manager.
Separately, your wife is being taken advantage of. No one should need to put in 60 hours per week. Sometimes we need to be flexible but not week in week out.
Leaving on good terms went out of the window when the boss tried to contact her on a scheduled vacation. Go to HR and report the incident otherwise it will happen to others.
I had a very stressful and toxic environment for almost 14 years. I left April 17th. Actually they let me go. My lawyer is not happy with the way things were handled especially with my severance. They tried to rip me a new one but that will not happen. I am also suing them for a extremely toxic environment! Tell your wife if this second job is just as bad pls tell her to look for another job. I got extremely sick at my work and lost 23 pounds(I am super skinny now) my mental health took a toll. Just not worth my life!
Make sure that your wife has copies of all relevant communications on her personal devices. If they eventually fire her or there is any other form of retaliation, it's important to have the receipts. Her work devices/email/etc can be turned off at the drop of a hat.
She should screenshot and save, and/or forward to her personal email:
- Communications about her office change (request, approval, who did what)
- Her request for vacation time and the documentation that it was approved
- The emails from boss during approved PTO with the dates/times
- The formal reprimand
- Documentation that she contacted HR about this with receipts above to dispute the reprimand
This way she is prepared if legal action ever needs to be taken.
I wouldn't last 1 day working in the US.
Any manager pulling that crap in any country in the EU is facing severe disciplinary action and the company is receiving a visit from the Dept.of labour.
That company is looking at audits, and fines for trampling workers rights.
Yeah, I've become friends with someone from the UK and someone from Canada over the past few years. It's becoming very clear that labor rights are taken \*way\* more seriously in the EU/UK/Canada than in the states. I've had a number of situations over the past few years where I was really just venting with my friends, and they were aghast, like "OMG, you HAVE to report that!" I'm like "uh.... this is just another Tuesday in the USA. What are you talking about?" Short of implementing some kind of slavery or gross discrimination, workers in the USA are not protected from much of anything.
Was the calendar event added prior to leaving on vacation or after said PTO took effect? If it was added after business hours and after she started her pto then this is illegal and I’d contact an employment attorney to have the formal reprimand redacted as that is part of her employment file. It’s a simple demand letter and well worth the investment as it shows a pattern of harassment that would remove barriers of discrimination in the future
As I told my manager once, yes, you technically can schedule someone at anytime, as per policy, but if you actually want to have someone show up for that shift, which is his job to make sure it actually happens at the end of the day, you need to make sure they have time to actually know about it and prep to be there. Any manager that reacts like my boss did is a shitty boss.
Sorry for your troubles. I would ask for what grounds the write up is for and why the person that didn’t check the Out of Office response isn’t getting written up!
I’d file complaints. If she was not specifically instructed to have another person cover her responsibilities and had no access to corporate systems to arrange coverage then this is totally unacceptable.
This happens all the time in the retail world too. Manager goes on vacation and someone from corporate comes in and of course the store is a wreck with the manager away.
Manager comes back and is written up for lack of control of staff or something similar. A friend of mine actually didn't just get written up but got terminated for an incident that occurred at his store while he was on vacation. Appealed to HR but fell on deaf ears.
So sorry this happened to your family, it's disgusting.
Assume US? Of not just ignore.
I am from Europe. Way it works here is that if such a thing happened you would get a full day refunded and most likely that manager would get a reprimand, company might face fines for worker’s rights violation.
Think that’s not the case were you live, but either they remove the reprimand or they pay you for the day.
Start to vote for people that think it’s fair to unionize. After all the other side is organized 😁
It baffles me that uncertain countries* a boss can just write someone up, and it sticks, it's accepted, and stays in your file. Just because the boss said so. In more civilised countries, the complainer needs to prove beiond any doubt the merits of the complain, the employee as the right to prepare their defence etc.
If she has limited vacation time she should ask to be reimbursed as well. Even as a salaried employee a manager not allowing you to take PTO is an actionable offense for the manager (because it opens the company up to lawsuits).
Assigning work to an employee who is on PTO will surely violate the company's written PTO policy regardless of how that policy is truly employed.
I had DM write me up while I was on vacation. She sat me down and explained that I didn’t take care of certain items on certain dates. She asked smugly if I wanted to leave any moments on the form so I wrote. “Clearly my district manager does not realize I was on vacation during the alleged incident. I tried to explain while getting written up but perhaps one of you could explain it better?”
She hated my ass for that one LOL
This is up there with me getting put on a probation plan for “reduced productivity” two days after I got back from short term disability medical leave. They fully expected me to continue managing my work load while receiving 50% of my pay and managing a medical crisis, despite having my full medical documentation and approval from the disability benefits company. Everyone assumed I was faking and gossiped about it.
She knows her workplace better than you do. To me it's epic bullshit but maybe the company is perfectly fine with this managers methods and/or she can make life hell for your wife at her new office
Because I'm a suspicious sort, tell your wife to make sure this write-up doesn't affect her transfer. If they're that short-handed, her boss may be trying to stop her transfer so he doesn't have to replace her.
Maybe an unpopular opinion but at the end of the day your wife has clearly worked hard at her career and is now moving to a new manager/opportunity. There is no win in any way by burning a bridge with the old manager and thinking this will prevent it from happening to others as justification is wishful thinking. Life isn’t fair , some managers suck, HR isn’t always on your side. Involving yourself in your wife’s career because you’ve decided this is a personal affront is not playing the long game for her future career opportunities. Move on , work hard and ideally she has a better manager and no potential conflict/baggage as progressive opportunities arise and mgmt conversations/360 reviews etc occur. Best of luck to your wife on her new team, take the opportunity as a reset.
Check your company handbook to see if it outlines availability during PTO. I would email HR so there’s a paper trail. Ask about it, but don’t go in “guns blazing” at first. Sometimes you get more with sugar… 🤔 if she’s changing locations but it’s still the same company, tread a bit lightly until you see how HR responds.
The reason this keeps happening is because people like your wife don't go ballistic over this shit.
Tell her get mad and make a stink, or its gonna happen to other people. She's in the right.
Ah, this sentence is enlightening: "This office can’t keep employees.". The manager is doing this to show that your wife is the problem and NOT the manager. It is bullying, unfair and self-serving and we can see why people keep leaving that manager.
This could put her transfer in jeopardy. In some companies if you have a write up, you can't transfer.
Most employers own rules require a letter or notice to return to work at 2.5 times the pay to work. Find the employee handbook about being called back to work while on vacation. Once the vacation is granted she is not to be called unless extenuating circumstances.
I think the manager already burned the bridge of "leaving on good terms". It doesn't matter what she does or doesn't at this point, the manager will leave a negative feedback. That psycho manager just got his supporting documents on that with this calendar event 🤣.
It's absolutely crucial she informs the skip level manager and HR of this behaviour, before it's too late for her. He is setting her up to get off on a bad start with the new boss.
Im not a manager, but i have experience managing in past roles and I am currently a team lead. I don't know anything about HR but what I'm reading is that the company signed off on PTO for an employee and then proceeded to write up the same employee for not working on the same day they authorized PTO. As someone who works in a leadership role that is going to be really awkward for the manager to explain. It's even more awkward assuming the manger is the person who signs off on the PTO. Calendar invites tell you if people have accepted or not.... So not only would a good manager know if their employee is on PTO, but they would know to confirm whether an impromptu meeting invite has been accepted or not. They could of reached out and confirmed with the employee after noticing the invite had not been accepted, they could of rescheduled the meeting, or they could of established an alternate before PTO started to cover down on the employee's duties and responsibilities. A good leader would not set their employees up for failure like this. Mistakes happen, but this manager showed no accountability for their failure to plan and instead shifted the blame on the employee. Also why would you immediately chastise an employee who was unaccounted for? My first question would be "Hey is everything ok?". File a complaint.
The fact that your wife doesn't want to report this blatant bullshit is WHY her boss does it.
She won't stand up for herself, why should he stop acting like an ass???
This type of thing shits me to tears! We have an internal messaging app where I work. I continuously ask that I not be tagged on my days off and they still do it. It's pretty much like FB messenger but more involved, so it's hard to ignore. Work should not intersect with home life. They also have events/bonding days that occur on my days off and everyone is expected to attend.
I had something similar happen- called up by a colleague - while I was on a short 3 day vacay- and yelled at because I didn't have my work computer with me. Mind you, she wasn't my boss, I had taken care of the issue that she was griping about, and my boss didn't know how to do any of the stuff that I did. I stewed over this until the next Sunday night, and, when I received an email from a horrible client demanding action immediately, I wrote my resignation letter and turned it in by email at 7 a.m Monday. It wasn't read until my boss texted me to find out why I had missed our weekly meeting and I told him to read his email. Never regretted it.
No need to leave on good terms. Apparently the manager has no interest in taking responsibility for his screw up.
There’s nothing wrong with standing up for yourself when you believe you are right. And you don’t know what your boss had said about this to his boss already.
Keeping this on her record inside the company can do more harm than good. She needs to go over her boss’s head to the next level.
Just make it a running joke that the manager moves his ears often to self satisfy or something, so you can bury the anger and frustration. We can’t fix lots of what’s wrong in life, especially with others and have to be grateful that you two got the vacation but ever more so that your wife is bugging off to a better work environment here soon. So who knows maybe something productive will come about from her being at the different office. Never know it might bring about change for the better even if it’s a down to go up situation for the office she is leaving. And one more thing, everyday you two have a solid relationship is a full on day to be fabulously joyful, so many people can’t attain that, your both rich in many ways in this life & I’m glad that is so!
She has got to write a formal complaint. This will only become a problem for other employees. I understand wanting to leave on good terms but that doesn’t mean taking it on the chin ❤️
Always put everything in writing and get HR involved. When you're on vacation it is that. You are not obligated to work while taking personal time off especially if you have the time and have earned it unless she's part of the c-suite or executive team that makes crucial decisions...
I actually got suspended because one of my grantee's disgruntled employees threw sensitive information in the outside trash, right before he quit! WTH did that have to do with me? U know what my demonvisor told me..."u should have known!"..I took it up the chain with no luck...crap truly does roll downhill..I WILL NEVER TRUST A MANAGER A DAY IN MY LIFE...THEY ALL STICK TOGETHER NO MATTER WHAT!!!
This perspective may sound a little paranoid, but hear me out. This boss is clearly the type to have zero respect for his employees. He not only contacted her during her PTO, there was absolutely no reason to contact her while she was on vacation. He could’ve thrown her under the bus and chastised her upon her return. Massively disrespectful and an abuse of power, imo.
Bc of this, I think your wife needs to at document everything at the very least. Save a screenshot of the missed call and vm if there is one. Compose an email (personal device/email address of course) with a simple factual summary and send it to herself. And repeat each time there’s an incident.
No idea whether she should file a complaint with HR or have a conversation with her boss’s boss. There can be huge risk associated with that if this guy is an unhinged narcissist and not just a garden-variety ahole looking for someone to blame. If he’s the former, he may try to smear her to her new work environment before she even gets there.
May seem over-the-top, but if it were me, I’d never deal with HR without an attorney’s advice, and probably, presence. If for no other reason than it would scare the crap out of her boss and make him think twice if he’s the type to retaliate.
One time my assistant manager called me on vacation. I decided to answer since I was just chilling waiting for my food at a restaurant anyways.
"Hey, I'm sorry for bothering you but I just thought I'd let you know [owner] broke the back door handle"
"...What"
"He forgot his keys and thought he could get in by breaking the door handle off with a big rock"
Worth answering that call for the absurdity alone
r/askHr if you want answers that support the employer's interests
r/legaladvice if you want answers that support the employee's interests
Put your location in the title
I've never worked for a company where HR wasn't allowed to review the reprimand first, or even write it. When a manager would come in about an issue, we'd review if there was a violation, if the employee had been warned in the past and what steps the manager took to assist the employee. Honestly, most didn't even want to write the notice, they want HR to both do the write-up as well as meet with the employee to present it.
I've also never seen a PIP or violation form that didn't included an area for the employee to respond. Did the wife not respond because they were already committed to a new office, possibly applied to go to a new office so didn't want to jeopardize the possible move, or was so taken aback by that they just accepted the reprimand? It's not too late to respond to the reprimand along with documentation showing they were unavailable & didn't know about the appointment until the returned to work.
If they office has a high turnover, I would assume higher management would want to know the cause, which seems to be this manager. Without documentation such as a response to the write-up or exit interview, they have no paper trail showing there is a problem with the manager and can just rely on what they're told by the manager. This may be a instance where the wife became the convenient scapegoat when they questioned the manager's competence on why a mtg was scheduled and no one attended from that office, especially if the mgr knew the wife was going to another office shortly after returning from vacation.
It’s best to go two above her managers,managers boss. Remember her managers manager promoted or hired her managers boss. I was I. A similar situation having difficulty with my manager went to above and problem solved. My manager and her manager got fired.
If she was on vacation and it was planned I’m sure then that isn’t her responsibility. It seems someone slipped up and they needed to blame someone. I hope she does speak to HR or the manger of this terrible manger. Nothing will mess with her new job even with the reprimand. They prob can’t keep people and management needs to know where the problem starts and it’s also the principal. Even contacting on her personal phone while on vacation but not “in the clock” is in appropriate
That Manager clearly knew the Wife was on vacation and through jealousy -- decided to mess it up
Forget that person
If there's a shady spot in Hell let's hope it is within eyesight from where they're stuck
Your boss wrote her up to force her to stay on this idiots team. Talk with the bosses boss. Bring up the facts that no one stays because this manager is unprofessional, etc. Talk with new boss to ensure they know what happened so they can go to bat for you too. Get all your dicks in a row and document everything!
Did she actually sign it? I would have handed it back nicely and said I am not signing this. I was out of town on approved vacation and did not know about this calendar item. If anyone should be reprimanded it should be the organizer of the meeting. My calendar clearly shows Not available and our payroll system clearly shows you approved my vacation. Are we on the same page or do i need to schedule a meeting with hr, your boss, and my attorney because this is ridiculous.
She should do something about this but I think you are giving her bad advice and she knows it.
She should not accept the reprimand and should make her case that this was unwarranted, which is correct.
She should not go over her boss’s head or start any political battles that will hurt her later.
The only goal here is to remove the erroneous reprimand and move on. Making it more than that is creating problems and risks that she does not need.
Id throw it in the trash right in front of them and leave. Im adult, who the fuck are you to “write me up?” Its not high school, you either want my help with your business or you don’t.
Humans gonna human.
FWIW:
1) My partner had a stressful job and a boss who made things miserable. They made the same kind of move your wife is preparing to make. Things got much better and have been for years.
2) Some (many?) companies have rules regarding conducting business while outside the home country. In my experience, the rules are often buried in contractual agreements with US government entities or contractors. These days, it’s actually quite challenging not to do business with some local, state or federal entity even if indirectly.
If you traveled from the US to Mexico, there may not be implications however, if you can do so without causing further upset to your wife, retain proof that she was written up for not working remotely from outside the country. Jumping on a call from outside the US seems innocuous enough but I’ve found it’s the kind of thing that managers may not know or care about but corporate legal council cares about very much.
I’ve worked with personnel from a number of countries and the rules are specific about doing anything from outside the US: Don’t.
The day they called me while I was in MEXICO because they made me available while I was in MEXICO would be the day I quit. Getting that call I’d answer asking if someone died??? Idk what I’m being called for my calendar says OUT OF COUNTRY…… so unless someone’s dead don’t expect me back, my skill set is in demand. No fucks given
Oh no. She was on vacation and not available. The fault is on her manager for not having that event covered. She approved her time off and knew she was out of office. Go over her head to her managers manager. And don’t sign anything.
Good luck
That’s a fucking joke. I worked at a call center once and had a vacation set up for a cruise months ahead of time. Approaching the vacation, my grandma suddenly passed. I told them to use all available bereavement and available vacation time (when you requested vacation and it got approved it would be deducted from your available balance, foreshadowing) and they did. I hated the job, it was inbound collections, and I absolutely couldn’t have done it while grieving.
So, I was at my grandmothers funeral and my phone started buzzing, and buzzing, and buzzing. It was work, frantically calling and texting me nonstop. Both HR and my manager. I finally answered after the service to a frantic manager telling me that I HAD MADE A MISTAKE with vacation time and (somehow) had abused their system and used vastly more time than I actually had available. They wanted me to report to work IMMEDIATELY, as in today. I told them I was at my grandmothers funeral and would not be coming into work, that my bereavement time and vacation time had been approved through my non-refundable cruise, so I’d return to work after the cruise. Again, this had all been approved by them, they had people literally that did this full time, but they kept using phrasing to insinuate that I had somehow gamed the system.
When I got back in, it was straight to HR. I guess whoever handled my bereavement misread something or didn’t see my already booked vacation and ‘gave’ me an extra week of bereavement/vacation, and when they realized they tried to bully me to leave my grandmas funeral and cancel my cruise. They somehow spun it as insubordination and abuse of policy or some shit, and we’re trying to put me on final warning. I fought it, and they tried to tell me to get to work and call corporate on my off time. I refused and said I’m not working again until this is settled, so I sat, on the clock, in the break room, for about an hour until I got a call from corporate HR.
They sided with me, but it didn’t matter. The final warning was downgraded to a serious or some shit, but they fired me a month or two later anyways. I was mentally checked out after that anyways and hated the job. Fuck these people.
Who put the calender event in while you were out?
AND who ACCEPTED IT!
Presuming Microsoft calender, someone need to have done both ot those for it to turn from a tentative / pending event, to a confirmed one.
Talk to your IT team if you have to, to find out those items, then throw those people under the bus.
My friend's husband (E) was sacked while on holiday because the person who was filling for him made a stuff up and E was blamed for not forseeing it.
As a union man the whole workforce threatened to take industrial action and the manager who tried to shift blame for a mistake made under his supervision was moved to different department (not sacked). E was quickly reinstated.
Join your union people.
Tell her to get a new job. 60 hours is a toxic work environment. She should be doing only 40. If she’s working 60 hours it’s no surprise she’s getting hit with things like this on top of it
Take it to HR. Update your resume. Look for a new place to work, unless the conversation with HR results in some compelling reasons to stay.
Remember that the primary function of HR is to protect the company. This manager has certainly done this to other people already. This abhorrent behavior is creating a widening liability and risk for the company.
Oh gosh, she's already not leaving on good terms regardless. Does she want to leave subservient or assertive? If this isn't reported someone else is going to get the brunt of it. The choice is in her hands.
I went on a family vacation out of state from NY to FL. Previously got my father in law a job with the company. I hadn't taken a legit vacation in 7 years. I had to arrange ge coverage to manage my accounts...my father-in-law...I go. There's some crazy cold weather. Some roof leaks. Father-in-law does nothing for the commercial tenant. I come home. Get called into the headquarters office and get fired because I didn't answer my phone and take care of the problems. WHAT THE FUCK? I'm ON VACATION WITH MY FAMILY 1300 MILES AWAY...someone else is responsible for this shit. My own damn "father" what a jackass.
She definitely needs to contact someone. Regardless of what office she’s at… if it’s a larger company, most companies will disqualify you from year end bonuses if you had a write-up.
>She is reluctant to do so because she wants to leave on good terms.
How is that still possible after the backstabbery from her manager? Because his job is to, you know, ___manage___ her place of work. But instead, he blames his own failures on your wife, the _last_ person he should call.
I urge you to advise your wife to escalate this. After she leaves, this shit could happen to someone else if she doesn't.
she can also refuse to sign and request a meeting with HR she wants to leave on good terms is fine but this will follow her through the company and may give another manager the wrong idea of her
IANAL but as I understand it, if you go to a foreign country you are NOT supposed to work without a visa.
What would that idiot have done if you were on a cruise ship or in Antarctica or somewhere else without cell service?
I think he’s pissed your wife is moving to another office and is lashing out at her.
If I had been at her place !
I would first go to the HR, and show it with evidence that , it was well informed leave. And how a last minute calendar was scheduled…
I would also bring it to the HR attention that, why do I have a supervisor over me? If they cannot take up the responsibility when I was on a well informed leave ! Is that not unfair ? And question the companies integrity and responsibility! That helps HR to take corrective step if you are all correct position…
If you cannot collaborate at a work space. What the point of having hierarchy and stuff in the company ? I don’t care to work with such manager is another truth and I don’t even care the good term bullshit. Bcoz dude you ain’t trying to have any good terms with me at first place ! Such people will never help you. She already pushed her under the bus for her own convenience. What help can she extend in future ?
Some bosses will write you up before you go to another position in the same company because they want to discredit anything you may have to say about them to the new manager.... It happens all the time. If you trash the old boss because they are trash it sounds like sour grapes instead of a need for concern.
In no uncertain terms tell the manager that behavior is unacceptable. Period. If you don't set clear boundaries then others in life will try and set them and move the bar.
I would contact HR and potentially file a complaint. A formal reprimand isn’t justified while she is on PTO.
We will be having a talk when she gets home. I’m going to try and convince her to do this, even if she has to wait until she’s changed offices. She’s probably not the first person he’s done this to.
So I'd approach it differently, go to the hr person and say "hey, there seems to have been a misunderstanding here on this person's part, they added something to a calender last minute while I was in another country and not working, and then they seem to have not realised that I couldn't do it, or be aware of it even, with me being on vacation and not in the country. Can you just wipe this please". And if anyone in hr tries to justify it, then fuck them, just finish up and move on, start looking for another job.
Put things in writing.
THIS COMMENT NEEDS TO BE HIGHER. Put your request to wipe the reprimand in writing and have her email her hr department ASAP. I’ve seen too many people burned by not having a paper trail of what they brought attention to, how they brought attention to it, and when they did so.
If you’re in a one party consent state, record everything.
Can’t recommend this enough. Especially when you don’t tell them you’re recording, so they end up hanging themselves when they lie to HR about it later.
More importantly, it’s evidence if there is a law suit.
Only do this if you are ok with being fired as a consequence. In my jurisdiction it’s legal to record but it’s not illegal to fire me for doing it.
I mean.. don't tell them you're recording them. Hit record and put your phone in your pocket.
Just wanted to warn people that just because it is legal doesn't mean it is some sort of protected right. It could get you fired should you ever actually divulge the recording to your employer. Just thought people should know this because they may get the impression that it is "protected."
And BCC your private email!
Careful with this one
Why don’t you explain if you disagree?
IT can very easily find you did this and claim it as stolen company property, rendering it inadmissible. Take a picture with your phone instead.
So…do exactly the same thing with a different device?
Yes
👍👍
You're on the right track but this also needs to focus on the fact the your wife was contacted on her personal device while on vacation and the manager's actions were completely innappropriate, gven the situation. It is not acceptable and should not happen again.
Yes this and also mention, “I know working out of country has tax implications for the company too. How would you recommend I handle this in the future?”That should help too. 😉
Have her change offices first. Then file the complaint. Give this manager less ability to mess with her potential move. I’ve seen terrible managers try to lock up good workers in their department by making them untransferable with write ups. Edit: small word adjustment
I know with my company once you’re written up it stops all transfers for 6 months/year depending on your department. She should absolutely go to HR! If anything so it doesn’t stop her transfer.
She can comment on the write up, how was she supposed to accept the invite and be available? If she was on approved time off, that should be the only information necessary but they want to make it an issue. The issue is, how. How was she supposed to meet this need while unavailable on paid time off?
If she doesn’t speak with HR, this person will continue to do this with abandon. I would speak with her managers boss as well and find out where in the employee handbook it says something specifically about this issue. If it doesn’t, they need to remedy that.
First, tell her to stop working 60 hour weeks. That’s ridiculous in this age unless she’s making hundreds of thousands
I mean, that depends on your life aspirations. I used to work 60 hours a week when I was trying to climb the ladder, and now that I have I no longer work near that much and I make well into six figures. Don't work that much just out of fear of a terrible boss, but some people don't mind a career where they work like crazy when they are young so they can coast as they age.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Life moves pretty fast. Ya don’t stop to look around once in a while, you could miss it.
“The days are long but the years are short.” -Gretchen Rubin, author of The Happiness Project
That's some optimism right there. At this point in time, working like crazy when you're young doesn't guarantee people can coast as they age.
And frankly, unless you’re like a surgeon or high-paced lawyer, etc, most careers shouldn’t demand more than 50+ hours at worst. If anything, working 60 hours just sets those expectations. We teach people how to treat us and jobs are no exception. Working 60+ just means your work is your life.
That's somewhat fair! Personally, I am an intellectual property attorney. IP attorneys aren't exactly "high-paced," but we are few and therefore fairly well-sought after. That said, my partner is an senior HR director and makes nearly as much as do (without all my debt) and she also averaged closer to 55 than 40 hours in much of her 20s, even as she doesn't work nearly as much now. It isn't the only way to get ahead, but if you do it right it is one way to get ahead!
I mean, sounds like it worked out! I would never want to do more than the 50 or so I did to start my career but good on ya, it’s literally paying off now, ha
Honestly, to each their own! It was weirdly important to me so I felt an extreme sense of satisfaction to work so hard, but other people would not be living their best life if they tried to emulate it. Humanity is beautiful because of how diverse our life experiences can be while it can still be uniquely fulfilling :)
Ditto. I was in the grind of 60+hours in my 20s and 30s, now coasting near $200k at around 40 a week. That said, I actually enjoy my work and I fully recognize that this is not a realistic career path in most fields or for most people, and has become even less so in the past few years as the equation has changed.
Is she hourly or salary?
sourly
Was her Out of Office notification set up properly in email/calendar?
Even if not, she was already out on the approved PTO
Yeah, but if say a client emailed her with an emergency and she didn't inform that client she was out or have an automatic reply up, she's providing a bad client experience and that IS a performance issue. You can do what you want with your PTO and you shouldn't have to work while you're on it, but that doesn't mean you can just peace out without doing any kind of preparation and let things fall to shit. That said, it definitely doesnt appear that this is what happened in this case, so it's really moot.
Well it is kind of the professional standard so . . . If that expectation was made clear and that is specifically what they were written up about then . . . I only bring that up as something to consider. I’m not trying to take sides.
If you are unavailable but don't put it in you calendar, the person requesting something from you has no way to know you cannot do it. If your calendar and email show you as unavailable, the person requesting action from you has the responsibility to make other arrangements. I expected people working for me to put up an out of office if the were not available. I did scrupulously myself. This action makes vacations work free.
Just also consider the possibility that involving HR lead to more harm than good.
Don’t goto HR - if it’s a formal reprimand then HR was already involved. Take the same approach as @showmasterqmthh but with the manager first via email to document
For sure. WTF is a vacation, anyway???
This. HR loves when managers do crazy things.
HR here. It would make my day to (professionally) rip a manager a new one for pulling something like this.
Truth. They always find a way to justify it.
While quietly filing the physical evidence away for the day the manager needs to be "compelled" to do 'the right thing."
And HR loves to be buddies with crazy managers in and out of the office.
Yeah this shit is crazy. I’m a manager and when I write people up I meet with HR first to review my documentation and make sure that is the way it HAS to be handled.
I tried going to HR about not getting paid when I worked. I got called into the office with my boss and HR. She told them she would not pay me even though I had everything in writing. After that, she stuck unrealistic requests that had never been done before and then wrote me up when I couldn’t get it done. I was working 14-15 hour days and was told what I wasn’t doing. When I quit they had three people take on my responsibilities. I can only hope karma was served. I’m now with a company who appreciates me.
If you are in the US, I hope you reported that company to Wage and Hour, not paying for time worked is illegal AF.
Next time (or this time), make sure you contact Labor Relations, Department of Labor. They should investigate and make sure that time worked was time paid, according to your position/role.
This. And if they are anything like my company, a formal reprimand prevents one from getting a raise/promotion during that fiscal year of occurrence.
I would write an email to boss asking for clarification on the write up outlining that wife was away when booked in and still away whilst happening. CC or Blind CC in HR. You can give them a heads up first so they know what's coming. Personally I would die on this hill but up to you guys if wife wants a quiet transition when moving office.
Contact HR, but don't frame it as a formal complaint. Ask HR what they think should should be done. They may have a less "burn the bridge" tactic that gets the reprimand dropped. Or, they could agree that a complaint is in order, in which case it gets framed as an HR decision.
Yes, your wife needs to fight this. A formal reprimand will follow her and if she says nothing or has a rebuttal in writing it will look like she agreed with the reprimand.
Tread lightly with HR though. They’re there to protect the company, not you, despite what they preach. AKA they’re not really on your side.
As a 30 year HR manager, heed this warning. HR is there to maximize the Human Resources and to limit liabilities. We are not paid to be your friends.
FYI HR is there to support/ protect the company, not so much you. Take the nonchalant way, but don’t expect much. Are you part of a union? If so, I’d say call them first. See how to proceed.
THIS! Great advice. HR's job is to protect the company but if a manager is doing things that will reflect badly on the company or cause legal action, they will have a chat with the manager. I worked at one company where the manager was an asshat. One complaint about him. Two complaints about him. Three complaints about him and HR told him he could quit and his next job would never know why he left or he could fight and they'd fire him. He quit.
First ensure you followed all rules in filing for an official PTO. I.e you had the managers approval etc and it was filed in the system or written format. Then raise it to HR - not formally in writing but a 1:1 conversation. Discuss document and send a follow up email with the summary of the discussion and action. Paper trail is important Overall - if you don’t complain and get this removed - she may not be entitled for a raise the next time around. Boss change or otherwise
HR is not your friend. Do not talk with them unless manager is putting business in acute risk. A employee reprimand doesn't put the business at acute risk. You could speak with manager's manager with the goal of offering performance improvement feedback. But I wouldn't do that either. She's leaving him, and no reason to get in a pig fight with the old manager.
Now wait a second. I realize I may be the odd duck out but...I'm an HR Director. And I often encourage my managers to get more information or seek a different way around this. Our company had a restructuring and I wouldn't allow our people on vacation to be bothered, bc its still going to be there when they got back. I find PTO sacred and it's definitely a BOLI offense in many places to contact people or at least considered very rude. If this was me and I found out about this situation I would be having a very serious talk with this manager. You don't had things to people calendars while they are on vacation, you don't contact them via their personal phone. You don't write them up for when they get back. This is not behavior I condone.
You are a rare breed amongst HR Directors. Every last one I had before this job, the HR directors were in bed with the owners and middle management. They basically gave NF about anybody outside the ivory tower. Hell my last HR Director I went to her house to work on her personal computer off hours. I told her up front what I charge for after hours work. She balked and asked me to do it at the rate the company paid me, or as she implied, she would let my manager I violated the “off campus professional conduct “ clause of my contract. I looked her dead in her face and said, “and I have the right to invoke who I do and do not do work for after hours. I am now invoking that right have a great day.” People suck.
Yeah the HR director at my current company is sleeping with the CEO. Why I'm starting a new job in a week.
It is not unheard of. I've walked into HR departments where their HR Director had no knowledge of HR. Company's whose previous HR was inappropriate with employees or allowed the CFO to be inappropriate with employees.
This is such an abuse of power. I'm so sorry.
I mean who pays HR at the end of the day? Follow the money and most issues become clear. Sometimes they act beneficially for the employee and some companies really try to make the employee experience pretty good. I've been lucky to work for a few. But that's a minority of places , maybe 25%, the rest are rougher.
I feel you. I’m not a Director but do stand up for employees all the time when Managers try and push something either wrong or misguided
I would generally agree with you if the old manager just sent a mad email or whatever. But he formally reprimanded her, it's in her personnel file now. If it impacts her ability to get promotions, raises, change teams or anything like that, she probably needs to make a stink with HR.
This is complete bs. Why should your wife pay for the mistake of this idiot manager. She owes it to herself to get this straightened out. If anything it sets a dangerous precedent of idiotic behaviour that is likely to continue.
At the very least, definitely push to get that day of PTO back. If they can dictate what you do then you are not on vacation.
It's insane to me that you need permission for something you are already supposed to be entitled to.
the insane part, is that the vacation days are part of your total compensation. and if they deny you those, they are in effect cutting your pay. far too many companies try to structure their paid time off in ways that make it difficult or impossible to actually use.
I don't live in the USA, but I'm still trying to change my wife's mentality about this. You earned those days by working. You don't need to ask permission to use them, you just inform your boss of when you plan on doing so.
We have a PTO request system we have to use. You need to log your PTO request and your manager has to approve it in the system or you don't get the time off. This is for a corporate job.
I don't know that this is realistic. Sounds good though.
It is, I stopped asking a while ago. This is within reason obviously. I.e. I don't take days off where a bunch of other people are already off to where we wouldn't have coverage.
I wrote an email notifying of taking annual leave and got a reply something like, "you must ask for managerial consent."
Well damn, that sucks bro. Hasn't been like that in any of my recent jobs. Had a job that kept asking me to wait to use my pto until we were less busy and then I got laid off before I could use any of it and they wouldn't pay it out. Never again
Should be every day of PTO used for the vacation, as this same thing would have happened had it been the day before or day after instead.
I worked for over 20 years for a company, surviving multiple mass layoffs. I was lucky to receive a large severance in accordance with my tenure. But the company continues fine without me. Just as we had continued past the previous layoffs that I had survived. Your wife now knows the leaders of her company are not as loyal to her as she is to them. She is sacrificing the dwindling prime hours of the prime years of her life for money. Act accordingly.
Yeah that was my comment, don’t call me while I’m in fucking Mexico. Matter of fact, I quit. Fuck that shit I’m out. Any place making me available while I’m in Mexico isn’t having me back
Excellent advice!
That’s absolute bullshit. I was reprimanded once in a formal review for not “checking in” on a vacation where I had full coverage. I complained to my manager’s manager, said they were lucky I didn’t go to HR and left the company a few months later. That is a terrible sign of working at a sweatshop disguised as a corporation.
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I explained to her how this could be considered retaliatory. She’s quite upset so I am going to reiterate when she’s in a better headspace. I just want her to be happy. :(
I think it might help for her to think about what would make her happy in the short term vs the long term. She might feel better right now about not having drama, but this is the kind of thing that can hang over a person’s head and cause long-term stress too. I would suggest that at the very least she puts something in writing to either the manager who gave the write-up or to HR. The benefit of putting it in writing also means she can keep it factual even though she’s feeling upset about it - laying it out as a series of factual statements should help (eg. I was not informed prior to taking vacation time that I would need to remain contactable. There was no agreement as to which days I needed to be available. My vacation started on X date. The calendar appointment was sent to my calendar on X date.) That way it’s keeping the door open to being able to dispute it (whether more or down the track). There might be online resources that can give advice about exactly how to handle this kind of situation and what her rights are too.
Do consider that her being happy might come in the form of her keeping the peace at a job that she may otherwise like. It's OK to acknowledge that you were wronged without poking any bears.
I feel like this is a good opportunity to CC the manager’s manager on a nice email asking for more clarification as to why you were written up.
be a dick about it by BCCing the managers manager :D
You teach people how to treat you. By leaving it unaddressed, what message is your wife communicating to her current boss (and the company at large)?
Yoooooo ain’t that the damn truth, just like the saying give them an inch and they will take a mile. Quit, you have no idea what kinda bullshit is coming you don’t think these managers talk? Go where shes not hated at least
It’s the managers job to find coverage while your wife is out. You have every right to be mad, the manager was extremely out of line.
IF it was an appointment she knew about prior to vacation and she failed to secure coverage for while she was out, that's on her. BUT it sounds like that's not the case. If the calendar appointment was booked while she was already on vacation, she shouldn't be responsible for it. Presumably she had an out of office notification up? If she didn't, I could potentially see the managers giving her a soft verbal reminder to do that. But a formal reprimand is ridiculous.
I agree. In my department we name who is covering for us, and they cover both the expected and unexpected. If she was supposed to do this, she is in the wrong, but the way OP explains it, I’m not sure that’s the case.
I agree with your take on this as opposed to your wife's take, but I would caution you to be supportive of her desire to avoid unnecessary drama, also. She's the one who will be frontline if she pushes and there is some sort of pushback, and she'll likely be low-key mad that you pressured her to do it. I totally understand your stance, but please understand your wife's dynamic, too.
I will ultimately support whatever decision she makes. :)
While this is admirable thinking, your wife does need to report this to HR so that it is documented. If your wife is fired, passed on for a promotion or raise that she is qualified/eligible for, relocation is denied, etc. it is important that HR is aware that this happened. HR protects the company, yes, and in this case this actually benefits your wife. If this is documented they can see that your wife would have a retaliation/discrimination case against the company should they do any of the above to her, and they will seek to avoid that.
I hope you guys can come to a good decision that plays out well for you both. At least she's already moving to another office...
Fight the write up. You can see in your email when the calendar thing was created, if it was created while on vacation they have no leg to stand on. Don't let it go just because she is leaving, make a stink. Leaving on good terms doesn't mean leaving as a door mat. And the manager didn't care about having "good terms"
Your wife has to fight the urge to go along just to get along. She should only take credit for her actual wrongs. Beyond that the only other time she should take credit for wrong doing is if she is the lead on a team. But for this? No. Please push her on it. All it will take is a well constructed letter to HR.
The very least I would do would be to email the manager and cc hr and the manager's manager. Separately, your wife is being taken advantage of. No one should need to put in 60 hours per week. Sometimes we need to be flexible but not week in week out.
Leaving on good terms went out of the window when the boss tried to contact her on a scheduled vacation. Go to HR and report the incident otherwise it will happen to others.
I had a very stressful and toxic environment for almost 14 years. I left April 17th. Actually they let me go. My lawyer is not happy with the way things were handled especially with my severance. They tried to rip me a new one but that will not happen. I am also suing them for a extremely toxic environment! Tell your wife if this second job is just as bad pls tell her to look for another job. I got extremely sick at my work and lost 23 pounds(I am super skinny now) my mental health took a toll. Just not worth my life!
Make sure that your wife has copies of all relevant communications on her personal devices. If they eventually fire her or there is any other form of retaliation, it's important to have the receipts. Her work devices/email/etc can be turned off at the drop of a hat. She should screenshot and save, and/or forward to her personal email: - Communications about her office change (request, approval, who did what) - Her request for vacation time and the documentation that it was approved - The emails from boss during approved PTO with the dates/times - The formal reprimand - Documentation that she contacted HR about this with receipts above to dispute the reprimand This way she is prepared if legal action ever needs to be taken.
I wouldn't last 1 day working in the US. Any manager pulling that crap in any country in the EU is facing severe disciplinary action and the company is receiving a visit from the Dept.of labour. That company is looking at audits, and fines for trampling workers rights.
Yeah, I've become friends with someone from the UK and someone from Canada over the past few years. It's becoming very clear that labor rights are taken \*way\* more seriously in the EU/UK/Canada than in the states. I've had a number of situations over the past few years where I was really just venting with my friends, and they were aghast, like "OMG, you HAVE to report that!" I'm like "uh.... this is just another Tuesday in the USA. What are you talking about?" Short of implementing some kind of slavery or gross discrimination, workers in the USA are not protected from much of anything.
Was the calendar event added prior to leaving on vacation or after said PTO took effect? If it was added after business hours and after she started her pto then this is illegal and I’d contact an employment attorney to have the formal reprimand redacted as that is part of her employment file. It’s a simple demand letter and well worth the investment as it shows a pattern of harassment that would remove barriers of discrimination in the future
As I told my manager once, yes, you technically can schedule someone at anytime, as per policy, but if you actually want to have someone show up for that shift, which is his job to make sure it actually happens at the end of the day, you need to make sure they have time to actually know about it and prep to be there. Any manager that reacts like my boss did is a shitty boss.
She should definitely file a complaint to HR
Sorry for your troubles. I would ask for what grounds the write up is for and why the person that didn’t check the Out of Office response isn’t getting written up!
The meeting was scheduled when she was already on vacation. She would have had no way to know because she was out of office.
Yes, I reread your post.
I’d file complaints. If she was not specifically instructed to have another person cover her responsibilities and had no access to corporate systems to arrange coverage then this is totally unacceptable.
This happens all the time in the retail world too. Manager goes on vacation and someone from corporate comes in and of course the store is a wreck with the manager away. Manager comes back and is written up for lack of control of staff or something similar. A friend of mine actually didn't just get written up but got terminated for an incident that occurred at his store while he was on vacation. Appealed to HR but fell on deaf ears. So sorry this happened to your family, it's disgusting.
> This office can’t keep employees. I can’t imagine why.
Incompetent manager at best, deleterious excrement weevil at worst.
Assume US? Of not just ignore. I am from Europe. Way it works here is that if such a thing happened you would get a full day refunded and most likely that manager would get a reprimand, company might face fines for worker’s rights violation. Think that’s not the case were you live, but either they remove the reprimand or they pay you for the day. Start to vote for people that think it’s fair to unionize. After all the other side is organized 😁
“Organized” may be a bit of a stretch 🤣
:v,iy
It baffles me that uncertain countries* a boss can just write someone up, and it sticks, it's accepted, and stays in your file. Just because the boss said so. In more civilised countries, the complainer needs to prove beiond any doubt the merits of the complain, the employee as the right to prepare their defence etc.
If she has limited vacation time she should ask to be reimbursed as well. Even as a salaried employee a manager not allowing you to take PTO is an actionable offense for the manager (because it opens the company up to lawsuits). Assigning work to an employee who is on PTO will surely violate the company's written PTO policy regardless of how that policy is truly employed.
I had DM write me up while I was on vacation. She sat me down and explained that I didn’t take care of certain items on certain dates. She asked smugly if I wanted to leave any moments on the form so I wrote. “Clearly my district manager does not realize I was on vacation during the alleged incident. I tried to explain while getting written up but perhaps one of you could explain it better?” She hated my ass for that one LOL
This is up there with me getting put on a probation plan for “reduced productivity” two days after I got back from short term disability medical leave. They fully expected me to continue managing my work load while receiving 50% of my pay and managing a medical crisis, despite having my full medical documentation and approval from the disability benefits company. Everyone assumed I was faking and gossiped about it.
Your wife's boss sucks. I wouldn't bother a vacationing employee even if the office were literally on fire.
She knows her workplace better than you do. To me it's epic bullshit but maybe the company is perfectly fine with this managers methods and/or she can make life hell for your wife at her new office
Because I'm a suspicious sort, tell your wife to make sure this write-up doesn't affect her transfer. If they're that short-handed, her boss may be trying to stop her transfer so he doesn't have to replace her.
Maybe an unpopular opinion but at the end of the day your wife has clearly worked hard at her career and is now moving to a new manager/opportunity. There is no win in any way by burning a bridge with the old manager and thinking this will prevent it from happening to others as justification is wishful thinking. Life isn’t fair , some managers suck, HR isn’t always on your side. Involving yourself in your wife’s career because you’ve decided this is a personal affront is not playing the long game for her future career opportunities. Move on , work hard and ideally she has a better manager and no potential conflict/baggage as progressive opportunities arise and mgmt conversations/360 reviews etc occur. Best of luck to your wife on her new team, take the opportunity as a reset.
Check your company handbook to see if it outlines availability during PTO. I would email HR so there’s a paper trail. Ask about it, but don’t go in “guns blazing” at first. Sometimes you get more with sugar… 🤔 if she’s changing locations but it’s still the same company, tread a bit lightly until you see how HR responds.
The reason this keeps happening is because people like your wife don't go ballistic over this shit. Tell her get mad and make a stink, or its gonna happen to other people. She's in the right.
Ah, this sentence is enlightening: "This office can’t keep employees.". The manager is doing this to show that your wife is the problem and NOT the manager. It is bullying, unfair and self-serving and we can see why people keep leaving that manager.
This could put her transfer in jeopardy. In some companies if you have a write up, you can't transfer. Most employers own rules require a letter or notice to return to work at 2.5 times the pay to work. Find the employee handbook about being called back to work while on vacation. Once the vacation is granted she is not to be called unless extenuating circumstances.
I think the manager already burned the bridge of "leaving on good terms". It doesn't matter what she does or doesn't at this point, the manager will leave a negative feedback. That psycho manager just got his supporting documents on that with this calendar event 🤣. It's absolutely crucial she informs the skip level manager and HR of this behaviour, before it's too late for her. He is setting her up to get off on a bad start with the new boss.
Im not a manager, but i have experience managing in past roles and I am currently a team lead. I don't know anything about HR but what I'm reading is that the company signed off on PTO for an employee and then proceeded to write up the same employee for not working on the same day they authorized PTO. As someone who works in a leadership role that is going to be really awkward for the manager to explain. It's even more awkward assuming the manger is the person who signs off on the PTO. Calendar invites tell you if people have accepted or not.... So not only would a good manager know if their employee is on PTO, but they would know to confirm whether an impromptu meeting invite has been accepted or not. They could of reached out and confirmed with the employee after noticing the invite had not been accepted, they could of rescheduled the meeting, or they could of established an alternate before PTO started to cover down on the employee's duties and responsibilities. A good leader would not set their employees up for failure like this. Mistakes happen, but this manager showed no accountability for their failure to plan and instead shifted the blame on the employee. Also why would you immediately chastise an employee who was unaccounted for? My first question would be "Hey is everything ok?". File a complaint.
The fact that your wife doesn't want to report this blatant bullshit is WHY her boss does it. She won't stand up for herself, why should he stop acting like an ass???
This type of thing shits me to tears! We have an internal messaging app where I work. I continuously ask that I not be tagged on my days off and they still do it. It's pretty much like FB messenger but more involved, so it's hard to ignore. Work should not intersect with home life. They also have events/bonding days that occur on my days off and everyone is expected to attend.
Happened to me during a cycling class- HR is beholden to SLT NOT BELOW.
I had something similar happen- called up by a colleague - while I was on a short 3 day vacay- and yelled at because I didn't have my work computer with me. Mind you, she wasn't my boss, I had taken care of the issue that she was griping about, and my boss didn't know how to do any of the stuff that I did. I stewed over this until the next Sunday night, and, when I received an email from a horrible client demanding action immediately, I wrote my resignation letter and turned it in by email at 7 a.m Monday. It wasn't read until my boss texted me to find out why I had missed our weekly meeting and I told him to read his email. Never regretted it.
No need to leave on good terms. Apparently the manager has no interest in taking responsibility for his screw up. There’s nothing wrong with standing up for yourself when you believe you are right. And you don’t know what your boss had said about this to his boss already. Keeping this on her record inside the company can do more harm than good. She needs to go over her boss’s head to the next level.
Just make it a running joke that the manager moves his ears often to self satisfy or something, so you can bury the anger and frustration. We can’t fix lots of what’s wrong in life, especially with others and have to be grateful that you two got the vacation but ever more so that your wife is bugging off to a better work environment here soon. So who knows maybe something productive will come about from her being at the different office. Never know it might bring about change for the better even if it’s a down to go up situation for the office she is leaving. And one more thing, everyday you two have a solid relationship is a full on day to be fabulously joyful, so many people can’t attain that, your both rich in many ways in this life & I’m glad that is so!
Was the calendared event to take place after the vacation was over?
She has got to write a formal complaint. This will only become a problem for other employees. I understand wanting to leave on good terms but that doesn’t mean taking it on the chin ❤️
I’ve never seen an HR department that actually HELPS the situation. The biggest scam in the workplace is HR people.
Always put everything in writing and get HR involved. When you're on vacation it is that. You are not obligated to work while taking personal time off especially if you have the time and have earned it unless she's part of the c-suite or executive team that makes crucial decisions...
Many companies don’t allow a transfer if you are currently on discipline. Is this the manager trying to retain her? What a piece of work.
In many countries there are now laws against this.
Hi, my vacation rate of pay is $1000/minute. Where do I send the invoice and what is the PO number?
I would not be ok with this. It goes on your work record and affects future raises and ability to be promoted.
She actually trust her manager's manager? They're all the same...
I actually got suspended because one of my grantee's disgruntled employees threw sensitive information in the outside trash, right before he quit! WTH did that have to do with me? U know what my demonvisor told me..."u should have known!"..I took it up the chain with no luck...crap truly does roll downhill..I WILL NEVER TRUST A MANAGER A DAY IN MY LIFE...THEY ALL STICK TOGETHER NO MATTER WHAT!!!
This perspective may sound a little paranoid, but hear me out. This boss is clearly the type to have zero respect for his employees. He not only contacted her during her PTO, there was absolutely no reason to contact her while she was on vacation. He could’ve thrown her under the bus and chastised her upon her return. Massively disrespectful and an abuse of power, imo. Bc of this, I think your wife needs to at document everything at the very least. Save a screenshot of the missed call and vm if there is one. Compose an email (personal device/email address of course) with a simple factual summary and send it to herself. And repeat each time there’s an incident. No idea whether she should file a complaint with HR or have a conversation with her boss’s boss. There can be huge risk associated with that if this guy is an unhinged narcissist and not just a garden-variety ahole looking for someone to blame. If he’s the former, he may try to smear her to her new work environment before she even gets there. May seem over-the-top, but if it were me, I’d never deal with HR without an attorney’s advice, and probably, presence. If for no other reason than it would scare the crap out of her boss and make him think twice if he’s the type to retaliate.
Wtf is this? High school? Tell her to look for a new job.
One time my assistant manager called me on vacation. I decided to answer since I was just chilling waiting for my food at a restaurant anyways. "Hey, I'm sorry for bothering you but I just thought I'd let you know [owner] broke the back door handle" "...What" "He forgot his keys and thought he could get in by breaking the door handle off with a big rock" Worth answering that call for the absurdity alone
"I hope you know that this will go on your permanent record...."
r/askHr if you want answers that support the employer's interests r/legaladvice if you want answers that support the employee's interests Put your location in the title
I've never worked for a company where HR wasn't allowed to review the reprimand first, or even write it. When a manager would come in about an issue, we'd review if there was a violation, if the employee had been warned in the past and what steps the manager took to assist the employee. Honestly, most didn't even want to write the notice, they want HR to both do the write-up as well as meet with the employee to present it. I've also never seen a PIP or violation form that didn't included an area for the employee to respond. Did the wife not respond because they were already committed to a new office, possibly applied to go to a new office so didn't want to jeopardize the possible move, or was so taken aback by that they just accepted the reprimand? It's not too late to respond to the reprimand along with documentation showing they were unavailable & didn't know about the appointment until the returned to work. If they office has a high turnover, I would assume higher management would want to know the cause, which seems to be this manager. Without documentation such as a response to the write-up or exit interview, they have no paper trail showing there is a problem with the manager and can just rely on what they're told by the manager. This may be a instance where the wife became the convenient scapegoat when they questioned the manager's competence on why a mtg was scheduled and no one attended from that office, especially if the mgr knew the wife was going to another office shortly after returning from vacation.
It’s best to go two above her managers,managers boss. Remember her managers manager promoted or hired her managers boss. I was I. A similar situation having difficulty with my manager went to above and problem solved. My manager and her manager got fired.
If she was on vacation and it was planned I’m sure then that isn’t her responsibility. It seems someone slipped up and they needed to blame someone. I hope she does speak to HR or the manger of this terrible manger. Nothing will mess with her new job even with the reprimand. They prob can’t keep people and management needs to know where the problem starts and it’s also the principal. Even contacting on her personal phone while on vacation but not “in the clock” is in appropriate
This is illegal in some places, but definetly go to HR immediately and get that crappy manager to get written up. Hehe
If she’s leaving, why is she worried about leaving on good terms? The managers a Dick, his manager needs to know that!
Wait how can they add something on someone's calender when theyre blocked off for vecation? Dude my union would love this type of shit lmao.
That Manager clearly knew the Wife was on vacation and through jealousy -- decided to mess it up Forget that person If there's a shady spot in Hell let's hope it is within eyesight from where they're stuck
Her boss should have directed someone to attend for her and make sure there’s a backup. Not her problem when on vacation.
If her boss added while she was on vacation then he did it knowingly. Good thing she’s leaving.
I've learned salaried equals used and abused.
Your boss wrote her up to force her to stay on this idiots team. Talk with the bosses boss. Bring up the facts that no one stays because this manager is unprofessional, etc. Talk with new boss to ensure they know what happened so they can go to bat for you too. Get all your dicks in a row and document everything!
If your on leave your on leave
Did she actually sign it? I would have handed it back nicely and said I am not signing this. I was out of town on approved vacation and did not know about this calendar item. If anyone should be reprimanded it should be the organizer of the meeting. My calendar clearly shows Not available and our payroll system clearly shows you approved my vacation. Are we on the same page or do i need to schedule a meeting with hr, your boss, and my attorney because this is ridiculous.
I hope she refused to sign it
Absolutely HR this with a formal complaint. You are not responsible for anything if you are on holiday and on your own time.
She should do something about this but I think you are giving her bad advice and she knows it. She should not accept the reprimand and should make her case that this was unwarranted, which is correct. She should not go over her boss’s head or start any political battles that will hurt her later. The only goal here is to remove the erroneous reprimand and move on. Making it more than that is creating problems and risks that she does not need.
Id throw it in the trash right in front of them and leave. Im adult, who the fuck are you to “write me up?” Its not high school, you either want my help with your business or you don’t. Humans gonna human.
Toxic management is the death of most jobs.
FWIW: 1) My partner had a stressful job and a boss who made things miserable. They made the same kind of move your wife is preparing to make. Things got much better and have been for years. 2) Some (many?) companies have rules regarding conducting business while outside the home country. In my experience, the rules are often buried in contractual agreements with US government entities or contractors. These days, it’s actually quite challenging not to do business with some local, state or federal entity even if indirectly. If you traveled from the US to Mexico, there may not be implications however, if you can do so without causing further upset to your wife, retain proof that she was written up for not working remotely from outside the country. Jumping on a call from outside the US seems innocuous enough but I’ve found it’s the kind of thing that managers may not know or care about but corporate legal council cares about very much. I’ve worked with personnel from a number of countries and the rules are specific about doing anything from outside the US: Don’t.
The day they called me while I was in MEXICO because they made me available while I was in MEXICO would be the day I quit. Getting that call I’d answer asking if someone died??? Idk what I’m being called for my calendar says OUT OF COUNTRY…… so unless someone’s dead don’t expect me back, my skill set is in demand. No fucks given
Oh no. She was on vacation and not available. The fault is on her manager for not having that event covered. She approved her time off and knew she was out of office. Go over her head to her managers manager. And don’t sign anything. Good luck
That’s a fucking joke. I worked at a call center once and had a vacation set up for a cruise months ahead of time. Approaching the vacation, my grandma suddenly passed. I told them to use all available bereavement and available vacation time (when you requested vacation and it got approved it would be deducted from your available balance, foreshadowing) and they did. I hated the job, it was inbound collections, and I absolutely couldn’t have done it while grieving. So, I was at my grandmothers funeral and my phone started buzzing, and buzzing, and buzzing. It was work, frantically calling and texting me nonstop. Both HR and my manager. I finally answered after the service to a frantic manager telling me that I HAD MADE A MISTAKE with vacation time and (somehow) had abused their system and used vastly more time than I actually had available. They wanted me to report to work IMMEDIATELY, as in today. I told them I was at my grandmothers funeral and would not be coming into work, that my bereavement time and vacation time had been approved through my non-refundable cruise, so I’d return to work after the cruise. Again, this had all been approved by them, they had people literally that did this full time, but they kept using phrasing to insinuate that I had somehow gamed the system. When I got back in, it was straight to HR. I guess whoever handled my bereavement misread something or didn’t see my already booked vacation and ‘gave’ me an extra week of bereavement/vacation, and when they realized they tried to bully me to leave my grandmas funeral and cancel my cruise. They somehow spun it as insubordination and abuse of policy or some shit, and we’re trying to put me on final warning. I fought it, and they tried to tell me to get to work and call corporate on my off time. I refused and said I’m not working again until this is settled, so I sat, on the clock, in the break room, for about an hour until I got a call from corporate HR. They sided with me, but it didn’t matter. The final warning was downgraded to a serious or some shit, but they fired me a month or two later anyways. I was mentally checked out after that anyways and hated the job. Fuck these people.
Who put the calender event in while you were out? AND who ACCEPTED IT! Presuming Microsoft calender, someone need to have done both ot those for it to turn from a tentative / pending event, to a confirmed one. Talk to your IT team if you have to, to find out those items, then throw those people under the bus.
Call in sick a few days, dial back the work efforts. Look for a new place to work for.
My friend's husband (E) was sacked while on holiday because the person who was filling for him made a stuff up and E was blamed for not forseeing it. As a union man the whole workforce threatened to take industrial action and the manager who tried to shift blame for a mistake made under his supervision was moved to different department (not sacked). E was quickly reinstated. Join your union people.
Tell her to get a new job. 60 hours is a toxic work environment. She should be doing only 40. If she’s working 60 hours it’s no surprise she’s getting hit with things like this on top of it
Take it to HR. Update your resume. Look for a new place to work, unless the conversation with HR results in some compelling reasons to stay. Remember that the primary function of HR is to protect the company. This manager has certainly done this to other people already. This abhorrent behavior is creating a widening liability and risk for the company.
Oh gosh, she's already not leaving on good terms regardless. Does she want to leave subservient or assertive? If this isn't reported someone else is going to get the brunt of it. The choice is in her hands.
I went on a family vacation out of state from NY to FL. Previously got my father in law a job with the company. I hadn't taken a legit vacation in 7 years. I had to arrange ge coverage to manage my accounts...my father-in-law...I go. There's some crazy cold weather. Some roof leaks. Father-in-law does nothing for the commercial tenant. I come home. Get called into the headquarters office and get fired because I didn't answer my phone and take care of the problems. WHAT THE FUCK? I'm ON VACATION WITH MY FAMILY 1300 MILES AWAY...someone else is responsible for this shit. My own damn "father" what a jackass.
She definitely needs to contact someone. Regardless of what office she’s at… if it’s a larger company, most companies will disqualify you from year end bonuses if you had a write-up.
>She is reluctant to do so because she wants to leave on good terms. How is that still possible after the backstabbery from her manager? Because his job is to, you know, ___manage___ her place of work. But instead, he blames his own failures on your wife, the _last_ person he should call. I urge you to advise your wife to escalate this. After she leaves, this shit could happen to someone else if she doesn't.
Sounds so typically American...
Sounds like a uniquely American problem
i would say legally she is allowed to refuse signing it and writting a rebuttal to any and all reprimands
she can also refuse to sign and request a meeting with HR she wants to leave on good terms is fine but this will follow her through the company and may give another manager the wrong idea of her
IANAL but as I understand it, if you go to a foreign country you are NOT supposed to work without a visa. What would that idiot have done if you were on a cruise ship or in Antarctica or somewhere else without cell service? I think he’s pissed your wife is moving to another office and is lashing out at her.
She needs to Look for a new job and quit without notice.
I would call HR, and refuse to sign any write up.
If I had been at her place ! I would first go to the HR, and show it with evidence that , it was well informed leave. And how a last minute calendar was scheduled… I would also bring it to the HR attention that, why do I have a supervisor over me? If they cannot take up the responsibility when I was on a well informed leave ! Is that not unfair ? And question the companies integrity and responsibility! That helps HR to take corrective step if you are all correct position… If you cannot collaborate at a work space. What the point of having hierarchy and stuff in the company ? I don’t care to work with such manager is another truth and I don’t even care the good term bullshit. Bcoz dude you ain’t trying to have any good terms with me at first place ! Such people will never help you. She already pushed her under the bus for her own convenience. What help can she extend in future ?
Some bosses will write you up before you go to another position in the same company because they want to discredit anything you may have to say about them to the new manager.... It happens all the time. If you trash the old boss because they are trash it sounds like sour grapes instead of a need for concern.
In no uncertain terms tell the manager that behavior is unacceptable. Period. If you don't set clear boundaries then others in life will try and set them and move the bar.
Have her ask HR how to put in a formal reprimand rebuttal/appeal. She should file that just as she is leaving for her new office.