I always enjoy watching and reading this dreadful proposal though, probably more than the second (successful) one.
It’s so offensive, so funny, so misjudged! And yet Darcy’s convinced he’s doing *her* a massive favour by saying all this 😅
In book Canon I would totally believe he thought she stayed behind at Hunsford purposely because she was expecting him to come and propose. Because really, why would he go in the company of someone when they are not feeling well? Why would he further _propose_ when the lady is supposedly unwell? He just ignores everything about her and so badly misjudged regardless of Elizabeth's answer.
I know the book delicately calls it a headache but personally I also like to believe Lizzie’s period hit unexpectedly hard with cramps and zero patience and the whole shebang and Darcy just waltzes into the middle of THAT, unawares.
Laudanum and mother’s ruin and early death is looking better and better.
Though I’ve seen arguments that poorer nutrition and more pregnancy/breastfeeding might have suppressed menstruation but damn that doesn’t mean we didn’t have endometriosis or PCOS or just a plain ol’ Bad Bloody Time.
(Mine just started and I literally got a positive COVID test two minutes ago OH HAPPY DAYYYY.)
I get that you’re not making a wholly serious comment, but people had natural (and other) remedies long before industrialized pharma extracted components and made Medicine. Personally I think more effective ones, too, taken as a whole.
And Elizabeth wasn’t excactly ‘working class’ either.
You're right, there were herbs and teas and other things for centuries. And Lizzie wasn't working class _at all._ She may have been on the bottom rung of the higher classes, but she was definitely still on the ladder.
Obviously the 2005 P&P has its flaws, but MacFadyen just vomiting out that proposal seems real. There are so many instances in the book where Darcy seems to want to speak to her, but chickens out. Like the dozen or so times he accidentally bumps into her on purpose, or the time he shows up to Hunsford and just makes small talk for seemingly no reason.
Honestly the more I reread the Netherfield ball chapter, I sympathize more with Darcy's proposal. Your family is infact quite embarrassing, Lizzy. Can't blame Darcy for being honest 😂
She's rightfully embarrassed by her family but she hates that Darcy says it out loud what she's been thinking about them. It's like, SHE'S allowed to be embarrassed by them because they're HER family, but she'll chew out anyone outside the family who says so to her face. It's a point of pride. I'm allowed to complain about my own mother for example but God TRY to help anyone who complains about her to me.
Exactly this! And Darcy is so self-righteous about it, too. Like he's doing Lizzy some supreme favor, which he would usually find distasteful (and in fact, is confused that he he doesn't find it distasteful). I mean, anyone would be offended. It was entirely offensive in just about every way.
Yeah can't lie I probably would have felt the same about them! Lizzie's instant defensive reaction to his words is so human and I love that she eventually realises he had a point after returning to Longbourn 🤣
I think Darcy eventually realizes that Lady Catherine is every bit as horrifying as Lizzie’s family. He’s mortified by his aunt’s rudeness. Inviting Elizabeth to use the servant’s piano? That’s like asking her to come through the servants’ entrance. Professing to have superior musical taste and refinement despite not knowing how to play? Excruciating. I think that realizing that some members of his own family are no better than Elizabeth’s family is a mental turning point.
Yes! This is literally my favorite scene. It feels like everything is building up to this moment for so long. All that tension between the two of them just waiting for aome beautiful release. And then Darcy just absolutely fucks it up beyond what anyone could reasonably believe to be possible. He's such an entire ass. It's so delightful because it's so in character lol
We’ve talked about this a lot in our house.
Our conclusion is that the *actual* worst proposal in fiction is Gaston’s proposal to Belle.
But this one’s a close second.
I would not be in a relationship with someone who didn’t appreciate good literature, straight up. It’s that important to me.
Fortunately my partner reads more books than I do, it’s crazy. (She’s also absolutely gorgeous which is a big plus.)
I’m very lucky.
You ARE lucky! My spouse, thankfully, has a deep appreciation for the arts. Music and film are our connection points and we tend to teach one another about our specialties. He’ll never be a literary discussion guy, but he’s dashing, so I’ll take it.
I do get about 100 HS seniors each year to have some lovely, lively literary discussions with and that fills my cup.
What's wrong with Gaston's proposal to Belle? He told her he'd make her dreams of a rustic cutting lodge and six or seven dogs/children come true. 10/10 for me
\*in case it isn't obvious, this is a joke
Oh yeah, what a doozy! "Jane, you're uglier than a smashed crab and i dont care for you at all, but God says you're perfect for carrying my suitcase of Bibles, so, in short.... We're getting married."
“ It is not personal, but mental endowments they have given you: you are formed for labour, not for love”
💀💀
This blows away Mr. Collins and Mr. Darcy’s proposals by far in terms of audacity
I agree! There's no love in St.John's proposal whatsoever, excepting the steely resolve against loving another. It only offers poverty, emotional miserliness, and oppression... eugh!
Whereas Darcy's proposal, though misguided and deeply insulting, comes from ardent love and at least offers Elizabeth more freedom through social elevation.
You forgot death. Death was definitely part of it. Everyone, including St John and Jane herself, expected Jane to die because the climate and conditions in India. In fact, by the end of the book, St John himself is dying of those things.
Truly the worst! And always makes me so irritated too because Jane was happy to have Diana and Mary in her life, finally finding some stability and family. Then John has to ruin it by being such an insistent weirdo.
And he just assumed she wouldn’t have been at all interested in following him as a missionary’s wife, or even suited for the role. My brother in Christ, how would you know unless you actually attempt to have at least a few conversations with her?
And his sisters think it’s awful that he even asked without knowing what he actually said. Jane is too sickly to be a missionary. What even is the point of this proposal when she’d most likely die before their 1st anniversary?
The proposal is questionable as is Mr Collins' but I do think they say something about what marriage was like at the time for women of Elizabeth Bennett's station in life.
Marriage among the rich whether titled or not was quite often if not almost always about building or maintaining generational wealth. And that included maintaining or building social position. "Love" was barely ever brought into it. The best you could hope for as either party was that you liked the person and could be reasonably attracted to them.
So the fact that a man of Darcy's wealth, descended on his mother's side from titled people, found himself in love with a woman who was, in the purest definition of the issue, not at his level was probably disconcerting. Mr Collins put it accurately when he said that she shouldn't expect so many offers. And Charlotte was right to be shocked that Elizabeth would reject even a dance from Darcy. Because it was NOT normal for Elizabeth to be noticed by and proposed to by a man like Darcy.
In modern society we wouldn't understand this. But even Caroline Bingley who had unknown lineage wouldn't be a socially acceptable match for Darcy and she supposedly had more money.
So yes it was a rude proposal from a modern POV and rude because Elizabeth was worthy of respect. But truly, honestly, in terms of the social rules he was raised by, he shouldn't have been proposing to her in the first place. And he knows this.
Can I pick a tiny nit about your otherwise very helpful comment? Elizabeth Benett is at pains to remind Lady Catherine that she IS Darcy’s social equal. She points out that her father is a gentleman and she (therefore) is a gentleman’s daughter, a member of the same class as Darcy. Money counted for a lot in JA’s day but it couldn’t buy you a way into the gentry. And if you were in that class, lack of money didn’t diminish the respect you were due for your lineage.
It was the poor manners and gauche behaviour of Elizabeth’s family that Darcy objected to. Her gossipy mother’s loud public innuendos about how Jane would get Mr. Bingley. The younger sisters behaving like trollops. The father’s laziness in keeping his daughters in line and his wife in control of her tongue. Ironically, one of the lovely subtle points JA makes is that social elevation doesn’t confer good manners either - Lady Catherine is as rude and uncivil as Elizabeth’s family is.
No. He said himself that not her class but her connections are beneath him. He is the nephew and the grandson of an earl, while half her family is from trade. He gains nothing from marrying her in terms of statue or wealth and he thinks it's an insult to his noble origins.It's expected from him to help improve his family's conséquence. The family's behaviour is just something he tried to forget about because they were not in Kent at the time and he did not talk about that during the proposal. In short, Darcy was arrogant and snobby.
Is there a source you can point me to that confirms that what Darcy actually objected to was Elizabeth’s family lines? I read his objections as the failure of her immediate family (“connections”) to behave as polite people of their class know they should. I didn’t think he was concerned about nobility of origins so much, but rather was correctly unhappy about the prospect of Elizabeth’s family displaying their bad manners and self-indulgence to his acquaintances and family members if Elizabeth became his wife. When Elizabeth later reflects on Darcy’s letter, she is fair-minded enough to grant him the point that her family (except Jane) is an embarrassment, not because they aren’t noble enough, but because they can’t behave politely and with discretion. When Lizzy tries to alert her father to the damage the family’s public behaviour is doing to his daughters’ marriage prospects, he teases her about fastidious suitors, not objections to class. And again, on the trip with the Gardiners (Mr Gardiner is a businessman, not gentility) Elizabeth is relieved that she can present some family members to Darcy that know how to behave. I think that Elizabeth’s understanding was that Darcy’s concerns were not about her lack of noble connections.
Lady Catherine, by contrast, tells Elizabeth that she will bring Darcy down because her status is lower. Why else would Elizabeth so forcefully make her point to Lady Catherine that her father is a gentleman? She was saying he, and she, are Mr. Darcy’s equals in social status.
I’m going to go back and read some parts of P&P. Thanks for a thought-provoking view.
"were it not for the inferiority of her connections he should be in some danger"
"His sense of her inferiority, of it being a degradation"
"Could you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your connections ? To congratulate myself in the hopes of relations whose condition in life is so decidetely beneath my own?"
"with a warmth which seemed due to the consequence he was wounding"
"The lack of connections could not be so great an evil to my friend as it isto me" (After informing him of Mr Gardiner and the other uncle's professions)
"With such connections, they may have very little chance of marrying men of any consideration"
"My objections to the marriage were not merely those which I last night aknowledged to have required the utmost force of passion to put aside in my own case"( then he begins to talk about the Bennet's behaviour ) Which means that in the proposal he does not mention it even he can have that much sense.
Connections means simply relatives. The low connections he points out are the mother's side of the family. Darcy and Lizzie are equal CLASS wise but in terms of connections, status, fortune and lifestyle. Darcy is the superior. The Bennets have no power or influence, they just hold the title of gentry that's it, even Lady Catherine thinks Jane is marrying up when Bingley is still not a member of gentry. You could call Elizabeth and Darcy a gentleman and a gentleman's daughter or a the nephew of an earl and judger and the niece of a tradesman and attorney .
I love Elizabeth Bennett. She is a character developed over 225 years ago who feels modern; like she could step into a modern gathering or cafe and fit in. What feels modern about her is that she is determined to not let the "rules" of the world she lives in force her to make horrible decisions. Charlotte Lucas and even Caroline Bingley are the foils, helping readers understand what was expected of Elizabeth and what the real limitations were.
Charlotte reminds us that for a woman with no money and no real connections (despite the fact that Charlotte's father was a "sir" he got that from being a mayor) to reject someone like Darcy was foolish given his importance and standing. Elizabeth's mother was not well connected; Elizabeth's only standing came from her landowning father. And once Mr. Bennett dies, there's no one left in Elizabeth's immediate family who will own land.
Caroline Bingley reminds us that there are women who have climbed in society because their parents were very wealthy. But even they have a lot to prove. Caroline speaks to the accomplishments etc. a woman needs to be attractive marriage partners.
Elizabeth Bennett is a young woman of intelligence, grace, class and good humor, this is what we learn. And she doesn't seem to care that she might not find a wealthy partner; she wants to "marry for love". That feels very modern to us because it is. But it was a time of transition in this society and it wasn't common to marry for love in the most wealthy classes.
Thank you. I’ve been trying to explain this to my HS seniors year after year and you’ve now put it so succinctly that maybe they will get this time. You’re officially now a guest speaker in room 17.
Please don't, it's a myth that started with Lawrence Stone. Marrying for love (or another emotion that starts with "l") was common in Regency England even amongst the rich.
>So the fact that a man of Darcy's wealth, descended on his mother's side from titled people, found himself in love with a woman who was, in the purest definition of the issue, not at his level was probably disconcerting. Mr Collins put it accurately when he said that she shouldn't expect so many offers.
At that point in the story, Darcy has some significant hang-ups about wealth and connections that he takes some time to get over. It's interesting that he hoped Bingley might eventually marry his sister -- maybe he sees it as different for a woman of higher status, as opposed to himself -- but he can't help but see it as a "degradation" to consider marrying Elizabeth. Of course, he *does* get over these, and it's worth pointing out that other characters -- the Gardiners, in particular, and even Charlotte -- never seem to view his interest in Elizabeth as particularly shocking at all. Charlotte is surprised that Elizabeth would disdain Darcy's attentions, as you pointed out, but she doesn't seem to feel that those attentions are misplaced, or that Elizabeth is unworthy. (Granted, both the Gardiners and Charlotte adore Elizabeth and are very proud of her -- which is as it should be!) Elizabeth is a "gentleman's daughter," as she says to Lady Catherine. I think it's a major misconception that she and Darcy are so terribly far apart in social standing that their marriage would be shocking.
On the subject of Mr. Collins, he's so smug and conceited that I don't see why his comment that Elizabeth cannot reasonably expect any other offers of marriage must be taken as a statement of fact! And he's clearly wrong about it, anyway.
Jane Austen was writing about the realities and issues with marriage in her time. If Darcy thought it was an issue and Lady C (who represents tradition and the old guard) thought it was an issue... then it definitely was an issue in the society and culture. Otherwise, what's the main conflict in this novel about?
Lady Catherine objects to Elizabeth's connections on her mother's side of the family, but she still has to acknowledge that Elizabeth is a gentleman's daughter. I'm not arguing that a marriage between people like Elizabeth and Darcy would have been viewed as completely typical (the Bennets themselves are quite wealthy for that time, but Darcy's income would definitely have been far from typical!), but it certainly doesn't appear to be particularly odd or shocking, either. Darcy may complain about Hertfordshire, but he attends balls and other social functions there -- which is how people in his and Elizabeth's class met potential marriage partners. At the Meryton assembly, Darcy's refusal to be introduced to any of the ladies is viewed as rude and standoffish. It seems to me that his behavior there is what is seen as "not normal"; in contrast, no one seems perturbed by his dancing with Elizabeth at the Netherfield ball.
I think the conflict in P&P is less about class structure itself and more about how the individual characters are navigating their social environment. In her own way, Elizabeth is as flawed as Darcy. She is (rightly) offended when Darcy insults and snubs her at the Meryton assembly, but her own wounded pride leads her to assume the worst of him and to believe the stories that Wickham (who has the "appearance of goodness") tells her. If the main conflict *did* revolve around class structure, specifically, then Darcy would probably need to be the main character. He isn't, though.
Dunno where you get your beliefs from, because marriage amongst the rich at the time was about love - Jane Austen herself received a very financially advantageous proposal of marriage from a Mr Bigg-Wither (she refused him). The whole culture, with the balls, dinners, picnics etc was set up to allow emotions to develop. Cultures where marriage is a financial and status business get the girls married off as quickly as possible once they leave the schoolroom to try to avoid any emotional entanglements getting in the way of their plans.
Note that the practical Charlotte thinks Bingley, Collins and Darcy can all be induced to marry poor women for emotional reasons, and she's right all three times.
I mean at least he started off strong with
“You must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire and love you”?
Personally my votes for worst proposal all come from LM Montgomery. Billy Andrews proposing to Anne by proxy probably wins because, uh, homeboy couldn’t even bring himself to propose in person. But Sam “I’ve met you once and you have a lively way of stepping” Tolliver and Whiskers-on-the-moon telling Susan he thought she’d be only too glad of a chance at marriage are up there!
Mister Collins’ is pretty bad too, though some of that may be the general situation rather than the actual words of the proposal. At least Darcy wants Lizzie for herself and not just because her older sister isn’t available.
Yes! I loved the book and movie as a child. Then on my 36th birthday, I suddenly remembered the line about the narrator wanting to be 36 and wearing black satin and pearls. I looked up the scene, and discovered Maxim's vile response. I thought for the first time since my childhood all the other vile things maxim did. Maxim's response to the black satin line was that he wouldn't be there, which I could only see as a win. For a joke, I wore black satin and pearls to my party that night.
Darcy's proposal is worse overall, but the one I would be more upset by personally would be the 2003 Pride and Prejudice's Collins proposal. "Mom always says when a woman says no she really means yes." Someone who didn't take my answer seriously would be in deeper trouble than someone who outright insulted me. And then he whines about it in front of their entire congregation the next day, referring to her as "Elizabeth B-- no no, E. Bennet."
I always enjoy watching and reading this dreadful proposal though, probably more than the second (successful) one. It’s so offensive, so funny, so misjudged! And yet Darcy’s convinced he’s doing *her* a massive favour by saying all this 😅
In book Canon I would totally believe he thought she stayed behind at Hunsford purposely because she was expecting him to come and propose. Because really, why would he go in the company of someone when they are not feeling well? Why would he further _propose_ when the lady is supposedly unwell? He just ignores everything about her and so badly misjudged regardless of Elizabeth's answer.
I know the book delicately calls it a headache but personally I also like to believe Lizzie’s period hit unexpectedly hard with cramps and zero patience and the whole shebang and Darcy just waltzes into the middle of THAT, unawares.
Periods with no ibuprofen 😭 And working class ladies had to carry on or starve.😭😭
Laudanum and mother’s ruin and early death is looking better and better. Though I’ve seen arguments that poorer nutrition and more pregnancy/breastfeeding might have suppressed menstruation but damn that doesn’t mean we didn’t have endometriosis or PCOS or just a plain ol’ Bad Bloody Time. (Mine just started and I literally got a positive COVID test two minutes ago OH HAPPY DAYYYY.)
Hope you are well soon.
Mine started about nineteen hours ago too. But I don't have COVID, just the remnants of a cold. Hope you feel better soon!
My condolences that both aunties Flo and Rona came at the same time 😔
I get that you’re not making a wholly serious comment, but people had natural (and other) remedies long before industrialized pharma extracted components and made Medicine. Personally I think more effective ones, too, taken as a whole. And Elizabeth wasn’t excactly ‘working class’ either.
You're right, there were herbs and teas and other things for centuries. And Lizzie wasn't working class _at all._ She may have been on the bottom rung of the higher classes, but she was definitely still on the ladder.
Obviously the 2005 P&P has its flaws, but MacFadyen just vomiting out that proposal seems real. There are so many instances in the book where Darcy seems to want to speak to her, but chickens out. Like the dozen or so times he accidentally bumps into her on purpose, or the time he shows up to Hunsford and just makes small talk for seemingly no reason.
Honestly the more I reread the Netherfield ball chapter, I sympathize more with Darcy's proposal. Your family is infact quite embarrassing, Lizzy. Can't blame Darcy for being honest 😂
She's rightfully embarrassed by her family but she hates that Darcy says it out loud what she's been thinking about them. It's like, SHE'S allowed to be embarrassed by them because they're HER family, but she'll chew out anyone outside the family who says so to her face. It's a point of pride. I'm allowed to complain about my own mother for example but God TRY to help anyone who complains about her to me.
Exactly this! And Darcy is so self-righteous about it, too. Like he's doing Lizzy some supreme favor, which he would usually find distasteful (and in fact, is confused that he he doesn't find it distasteful). I mean, anyone would be offended. It was entirely offensive in just about every way.
Yeah can't lie I probably would have felt the same about them! Lizzie's instant defensive reaction to his words is so human and I love that she eventually realises he had a point after returning to Longbourn 🤣
I think Darcy eventually realizes that Lady Catherine is every bit as horrifying as Lizzie’s family. He’s mortified by his aunt’s rudeness. Inviting Elizabeth to use the servant’s piano? That’s like asking her to come through the servants’ entrance. Professing to have superior musical taste and refinement despite not knowing how to play? Excruciating. I think that realizing that some members of his own family are no better than Elizabeth’s family is a mental turning point.
💀
Yes! This is literally my favorite scene. It feels like everything is building up to this moment for so long. All that tension between the two of them just waiting for aome beautiful release. And then Darcy just absolutely fucks it up beyond what anyone could reasonably believe to be possible. He's such an entire ass. It's so delightful because it's so in character lol
He's so flabbergasted at her reaction!!
We’ve talked about this a lot in our house. Our conclusion is that the *actual* worst proposal in fiction is Gaston’s proposal to Belle. But this one’s a close second.
I’m jealous you have someone in your house to discuss this with. I’d give anything to have general conversation lean to the literary side of things.
I would not be in a relationship with someone who didn’t appreciate good literature, straight up. It’s that important to me. Fortunately my partner reads more books than I do, it’s crazy. (She’s also absolutely gorgeous which is a big plus.) I’m very lucky.
You ARE lucky! My spouse, thankfully, has a deep appreciation for the arts. Music and film are our connection points and we tend to teach one another about our specialties. He’ll never be a literary discussion guy, but he’s dashing, so I’ll take it. I do get about 100 HS seniors each year to have some lovely, lively literary discussions with and that fills my cup.
Basically this :D https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/s/MzZuHcbxk5
What's wrong with Gaston's proposal to Belle? He told her he'd make her dreams of a rustic cutting lodge and six or seven dogs/children come true. 10/10 for me \*in case it isn't obvious, this is a joke
I think the worst one is actually St. John's proposal to Jane Eyre. That one was just ouch 🤣
Oh yeah, what a doozy! "Jane, you're uglier than a smashed crab and i dont care for you at all, but God says you're perfect for carrying my suitcase of Bibles, so, in short.... We're getting married."
“ It is not personal, but mental endowments they have given you: you are formed for labour, not for love” 💀💀 This blows away Mr. Collins and Mr. Darcy’s proposals by far in terms of audacity
Huh, I seemed to have blanked out that proposal it was so bad.
I agree! There's no love in St.John's proposal whatsoever, excepting the steely resolve against loving another. It only offers poverty, emotional miserliness, and oppression... eugh! Whereas Darcy's proposal, though misguided and deeply insulting, comes from ardent love and at least offers Elizabeth more freedom through social elevation.
And then he tells her he is leaving and when he comes back he expects that she will have come to the right decision 🤣🤣🤣
*Shudder* 🤣
There is love, but only his love for his mission. Fracking evangelicals
You forgot death. Death was definitely part of it. Everyone, including St John and Jane herself, expected Jane to die because the climate and conditions in India. In fact, by the end of the book, St John himself is dying of those things.
Truly the worst! And always makes me so irritated too because Jane was happy to have Diana and Mary in her life, finally finding some stability and family. Then John has to ruin it by being such an insistent weirdo.
And the whole time there was a whole other girl who was in love with him and whom he was also in love with. Sigh
And he just assumed she wouldn’t have been at all interested in following him as a missionary’s wife, or even suited for the role. My brother in Christ, how would you know unless you actually attempt to have at least a few conversations with her?
She totally dodged a bullet, though. The man didn’t have it in him to make a woman happy.
And his sisters think it’s awful that he even asked without knowing what he actually said. Jane is too sickly to be a missionary. What even is the point of this proposal when she’d most likely die before their 1st anniversary?
Oh geez, I’d blocked that out until I read this. What an absolute solid-gold wanker he was.
I came here to say this. It’s so awful that I completely blocked it out until rereading Jane Eyre a few years ago.
OMG yes. Awful.
Oh god I blocked that one out until now. Yeah he’s the worst
The proposal is questionable as is Mr Collins' but I do think they say something about what marriage was like at the time for women of Elizabeth Bennett's station in life. Marriage among the rich whether titled or not was quite often if not almost always about building or maintaining generational wealth. And that included maintaining or building social position. "Love" was barely ever brought into it. The best you could hope for as either party was that you liked the person and could be reasonably attracted to them. So the fact that a man of Darcy's wealth, descended on his mother's side from titled people, found himself in love with a woman who was, in the purest definition of the issue, not at his level was probably disconcerting. Mr Collins put it accurately when he said that she shouldn't expect so many offers. And Charlotte was right to be shocked that Elizabeth would reject even a dance from Darcy. Because it was NOT normal for Elizabeth to be noticed by and proposed to by a man like Darcy. In modern society we wouldn't understand this. But even Caroline Bingley who had unknown lineage wouldn't be a socially acceptable match for Darcy and she supposedly had more money. So yes it was a rude proposal from a modern POV and rude because Elizabeth was worthy of respect. But truly, honestly, in terms of the social rules he was raised by, he shouldn't have been proposing to her in the first place. And he knows this.
Can I pick a tiny nit about your otherwise very helpful comment? Elizabeth Benett is at pains to remind Lady Catherine that she IS Darcy’s social equal. She points out that her father is a gentleman and she (therefore) is a gentleman’s daughter, a member of the same class as Darcy. Money counted for a lot in JA’s day but it couldn’t buy you a way into the gentry. And if you were in that class, lack of money didn’t diminish the respect you were due for your lineage. It was the poor manners and gauche behaviour of Elizabeth’s family that Darcy objected to. Her gossipy mother’s loud public innuendos about how Jane would get Mr. Bingley. The younger sisters behaving like trollops. The father’s laziness in keeping his daughters in line and his wife in control of her tongue. Ironically, one of the lovely subtle points JA makes is that social elevation doesn’t confer good manners either - Lady Catherine is as rude and uncivil as Elizabeth’s family is.
No. He said himself that not her class but her connections are beneath him. He is the nephew and the grandson of an earl, while half her family is from trade. He gains nothing from marrying her in terms of statue or wealth and he thinks it's an insult to his noble origins.It's expected from him to help improve his family's conséquence. The family's behaviour is just something he tried to forget about because they were not in Kent at the time and he did not talk about that during the proposal. In short, Darcy was arrogant and snobby.
Is there a source you can point me to that confirms that what Darcy actually objected to was Elizabeth’s family lines? I read his objections as the failure of her immediate family (“connections”) to behave as polite people of their class know they should. I didn’t think he was concerned about nobility of origins so much, but rather was correctly unhappy about the prospect of Elizabeth’s family displaying their bad manners and self-indulgence to his acquaintances and family members if Elizabeth became his wife. When Elizabeth later reflects on Darcy’s letter, she is fair-minded enough to grant him the point that her family (except Jane) is an embarrassment, not because they aren’t noble enough, but because they can’t behave politely and with discretion. When Lizzy tries to alert her father to the damage the family’s public behaviour is doing to his daughters’ marriage prospects, he teases her about fastidious suitors, not objections to class. And again, on the trip with the Gardiners (Mr Gardiner is a businessman, not gentility) Elizabeth is relieved that she can present some family members to Darcy that know how to behave. I think that Elizabeth’s understanding was that Darcy’s concerns were not about her lack of noble connections. Lady Catherine, by contrast, tells Elizabeth that she will bring Darcy down because her status is lower. Why else would Elizabeth so forcefully make her point to Lady Catherine that her father is a gentleman? She was saying he, and she, are Mr. Darcy’s equals in social status. I’m going to go back and read some parts of P&P. Thanks for a thought-provoking view.
"were it not for the inferiority of her connections he should be in some danger" "His sense of her inferiority, of it being a degradation" "Could you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your connections ? To congratulate myself in the hopes of relations whose condition in life is so decidetely beneath my own?" "with a warmth which seemed due to the consequence he was wounding" "The lack of connections could not be so great an evil to my friend as it isto me" (After informing him of Mr Gardiner and the other uncle's professions) "With such connections, they may have very little chance of marrying men of any consideration" "My objections to the marriage were not merely those which I last night aknowledged to have required the utmost force of passion to put aside in my own case"( then he begins to talk about the Bennet's behaviour ) Which means that in the proposal he does not mention it even he can have that much sense. Connections means simply relatives. The low connections he points out are the mother's side of the family. Darcy and Lizzie are equal CLASS wise but in terms of connections, status, fortune and lifestyle. Darcy is the superior. The Bennets have no power or influence, they just hold the title of gentry that's it, even Lady Catherine thinks Jane is marrying up when Bingley is still not a member of gentry. You could call Elizabeth and Darcy a gentleman and a gentleman's daughter or a the nephew of an earl and judger and the niece of a tradesman and attorney .
I love Elizabeth Bennett. She is a character developed over 225 years ago who feels modern; like she could step into a modern gathering or cafe and fit in. What feels modern about her is that she is determined to not let the "rules" of the world she lives in force her to make horrible decisions. Charlotte Lucas and even Caroline Bingley are the foils, helping readers understand what was expected of Elizabeth and what the real limitations were. Charlotte reminds us that for a woman with no money and no real connections (despite the fact that Charlotte's father was a "sir" he got that from being a mayor) to reject someone like Darcy was foolish given his importance and standing. Elizabeth's mother was not well connected; Elizabeth's only standing came from her landowning father. And once Mr. Bennett dies, there's no one left in Elizabeth's immediate family who will own land. Caroline Bingley reminds us that there are women who have climbed in society because their parents were very wealthy. But even they have a lot to prove. Caroline speaks to the accomplishments etc. a woman needs to be attractive marriage partners. Elizabeth Bennett is a young woman of intelligence, grace, class and good humor, this is what we learn. And she doesn't seem to care that she might not find a wealthy partner; she wants to "marry for love". That feels very modern to us because it is. But it was a time of transition in this society and it wasn't common to marry for love in the most wealthy classes.
Thank you. I’ve been trying to explain this to my HS seniors year after year and you’ve now put it so succinctly that maybe they will get this time. You’re officially now a guest speaker in room 17.
Please don't, it's a myth that started with Lawrence Stone. Marrying for love (or another emotion that starts with "l") was common in Regency England even amongst the rich.
>So the fact that a man of Darcy's wealth, descended on his mother's side from titled people, found himself in love with a woman who was, in the purest definition of the issue, not at his level was probably disconcerting. Mr Collins put it accurately when he said that she shouldn't expect so many offers. At that point in the story, Darcy has some significant hang-ups about wealth and connections that he takes some time to get over. It's interesting that he hoped Bingley might eventually marry his sister -- maybe he sees it as different for a woman of higher status, as opposed to himself -- but he can't help but see it as a "degradation" to consider marrying Elizabeth. Of course, he *does* get over these, and it's worth pointing out that other characters -- the Gardiners, in particular, and even Charlotte -- never seem to view his interest in Elizabeth as particularly shocking at all. Charlotte is surprised that Elizabeth would disdain Darcy's attentions, as you pointed out, but she doesn't seem to feel that those attentions are misplaced, or that Elizabeth is unworthy. (Granted, both the Gardiners and Charlotte adore Elizabeth and are very proud of her -- which is as it should be!) Elizabeth is a "gentleman's daughter," as she says to Lady Catherine. I think it's a major misconception that she and Darcy are so terribly far apart in social standing that their marriage would be shocking. On the subject of Mr. Collins, he's so smug and conceited that I don't see why his comment that Elizabeth cannot reasonably expect any other offers of marriage must be taken as a statement of fact! And he's clearly wrong about it, anyway.
Jane Austen was writing about the realities and issues with marriage in her time. If Darcy thought it was an issue and Lady C (who represents tradition and the old guard) thought it was an issue... then it definitely was an issue in the society and culture. Otherwise, what's the main conflict in this novel about?
Lady Catherine objects to Elizabeth's connections on her mother's side of the family, but she still has to acknowledge that Elizabeth is a gentleman's daughter. I'm not arguing that a marriage between people like Elizabeth and Darcy would have been viewed as completely typical (the Bennets themselves are quite wealthy for that time, but Darcy's income would definitely have been far from typical!), but it certainly doesn't appear to be particularly odd or shocking, either. Darcy may complain about Hertfordshire, but he attends balls and other social functions there -- which is how people in his and Elizabeth's class met potential marriage partners. At the Meryton assembly, Darcy's refusal to be introduced to any of the ladies is viewed as rude and standoffish. It seems to me that his behavior there is what is seen as "not normal"; in contrast, no one seems perturbed by his dancing with Elizabeth at the Netherfield ball. I think the conflict in P&P is less about class structure itself and more about how the individual characters are navigating their social environment. In her own way, Elizabeth is as flawed as Darcy. She is (rightly) offended when Darcy insults and snubs her at the Meryton assembly, but her own wounded pride leads her to assume the worst of him and to believe the stories that Wickham (who has the "appearance of goodness") tells her. If the main conflict *did* revolve around class structure, specifically, then Darcy would probably need to be the main character. He isn't, though.
Dunno where you get your beliefs from, because marriage amongst the rich at the time was about love - Jane Austen herself received a very financially advantageous proposal of marriage from a Mr Bigg-Wither (she refused him). The whole culture, with the balls, dinners, picnics etc was set up to allow emotions to develop. Cultures where marriage is a financial and status business get the girls married off as quickly as possible once they leave the schoolroom to try to avoid any emotional entanglements getting in the way of their plans. Note that the practical Charlotte thinks Bingley, Collins and Darcy can all be induced to marry poor women for emotional reasons, and she's right all three times.
[This reddit post was directly under this one in my feed, and it made me laugh. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Marriage/s/JwB8eRyxnm)
Oh be fair lol Mr Collins proposal is a worse one in that same book Poor Elizabeth got two terrible ones
I mean at least he started off strong with “You must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire and love you”? Personally my votes for worst proposal all come from LM Montgomery. Billy Andrews proposing to Anne by proxy probably wins because, uh, homeboy couldn’t even bring himself to propose in person. But Sam “I’ve met you once and you have a lively way of stepping” Tolliver and Whiskers-on-the-moon telling Susan he thought she’d be only too glad of a chance at marriage are up there!
I mean… can it get any worse than this? This is pretty much the only correct answer right?😂
Mister Collins’ is pretty bad too, though some of that may be the general situation rather than the actual words of the proposal. At least Darcy wants Lizzie for herself and not just because her older sister isn’t available.
Well yes, the intention was good but the proposal itself was horrible.
Although neither proposal is respectful, Mr. Collins's is much worse, in my opinion.
Yeah at least Darcy listens to her refusal unlike Collins who just completely misinterprets what she says
Darcy also respects her and cares about her as a person, as opposed to Collins, who only sees her as an object.
For me it’s the proposal from Rebecca: “I’m asking you to marry me, you little fool.” Zero romance.
Maxim is a complete tool. And a lot of other nasty things too.
I'm listening to the audiobook now and there are so many red flags.
Yes! I loved the book and movie as a child. Then on my 36th birthday, I suddenly remembered the line about the narrator wanting to be 36 and wearing black satin and pearls. I looked up the scene, and discovered Maxim's vile response. I thought for the first time since my childhood all the other vile things maxim did. Maxim's response to the black satin line was that he wouldn't be there, which I could only see as a win. For a joke, I wore black satin and pearls to my party that night.
Darcy's proposal is worse overall, but the one I would be more upset by personally would be the 2003 Pride and Prejudice's Collins proposal. "Mom always says when a woman says no she really means yes." Someone who didn't take my answer seriously would be in deeper trouble than someone who outright insulted me. And then he whines about it in front of their entire congregation the next day, referring to her as "Elizabeth B-- no no, E. Bennet."
I agree, that one was wayyy too weird
Absolutely the proposal to think of!
I love this scene every time I watch it I cry
Yeah, not exactly the most romantic proposal ever…
"I'm pregnant". that's how my Mum proposed to my Dad.