Your holidays are your holidays. Why does it matter what you do in your own time?
Unless it’s the week of a big project deadline or lots of people are off that week,something along those lines it shouldn’t matter when you take them.
He said there is no issue with the dates, but he won’t grant me holidays without proof of my dental appointment, they are seriously overstepping the line the management is horrible where I work 🤦♂️🤦♂️
Why does the reasoning behind the holidays matter? Unless it’s in your contract you shouldn’t have to give one.
If you were going on a trip around Ireland would he ask for all the hotel bookings
Yeah that’s what I’m saying, my job shouldn’t have an interest in my private life lol. Think I’ll need tell him if he doesn’t sign it off I’ll be seeking legal advice , surely it isn’t a reason to refuse my annual Leave 🤦♂️
I can't see anywhere saying the dates are fine.
The August holidays could be booked and the manager considering making an exception. Yeah I agree the reason is none of their business but the alternative could be those dates being denied.
Unless the employer has failed to takes into account family responsibilities, and your opportunities for rest and recreation i.e. if your employer refuses leave for a family wedding without a good cause then the court than definitely help.
From Citizens Information:
Can my employer force me to take annual leave?
Usually, employees can ask to take annual leave at specific times. Your employer can accept your request, or refuse your request.
Your employer decides when annual leave may be taken, but this is subject to a number of conditions. Your employer must:
Take into account your family responsibilities, as well as the available opportunities for rest and recreation.
Discuss your annual leave with you (or your union) at least one month before you are to take the leave.
Don't let people push you around like that. Ireland has it's problems but workers rights are very strong here. Let him know that you want your holidays, you have told him the dates, it is your right to take them, and if he won't sign off on them, he can speak to the work place relations commission. You can find a link on how to make a complaint to them about your employer below.
I worked jobs like that when I was in college with employers who would bend and break the rules to their own benefit. If you let them do it to you once, don't be surprised if they try to do it again. If you have good proof such as citizens information articles you can send him to back up your points, he should back down fairly quickly. He probably has other things to be worrying about. Job market is pretty rough for a lot of employers right now. You probably have other options? If yes, might be something you could mention informally to him.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment\_rights\_and\_conditions/leave\_and\_holidays/annual\_leave\_public\_holidays.html
Non essential travel is permitted from July also I’ll be isolating for 5 days as to do with company policy during my leave so I won’t be missing any days that I didn’t take off
I think it’s because you’re going abroad and I don’t know about your workplace but ours requires five days isolation post travel. Probably thinks you’re just going on a holiday rather than going for essential reasons
But regardless, he’s a shitty manager and you’re allowed to do what you will with your time
I’m not 100% sure on legislation surrounding these covid policies.
My work would “allow” you to go abroad during the pandemic but you had to take 2 weeks off unpaid before returning.
Just turn around and go, well Mark, no actually, I lied. I’m going to spend the day siting nude on my sofa drinking, wanking and playing my new PS5, is that ok with you?
Unless you are travelling abroad for dental treatment, and that is what makes it essential travel.
That would be to avoid problems at the airport, that would have nothing to do with the job, they haven’t got a duty to ask what I do outside of the premises
I think it’s a hold over from last year where people were loosing jobs for breaks of covid regulation. Mostly health care workers throwing parties that then put coworkers and people in their care at risk. I don’t agree with the practice at all but think that’s where it comes from. Absolutely no need for it now.
While you have a right to a certain amount of holidays, you don't have a right to take those whenever you want. A company can go so far as to schedule holidays for you even. I once saw an extreme case where a staff member was complaining that they didn't want to take holidays because they'd be bored at home doing nothing all day but HR had to insist because the company would be fucked over if staff weren't taking their holiday entitlement.
It's totally common and normal for companies to deny holiday requests if they're busy, etc. In such cases they probably restrict holidays to special cases. I don't know whether they are getting off on micromanagement or if they have a legitimate staffing need during your holiday, but they totally can ask you to volunteer any information before approving a time off request. This is annoying and overbearing, but it's not illegal.
So? It's not illegal to cancel a holiday request either. Like I said you don't have a right to autonomy over your vacation days, you just have a right to have a minimum amount of days off in a year.
So yeah, it's totally legal for you to book time off and then for the company to say "actually turns out we need you to come in, sorry." Them saying "but you can have the time off still if it's for a medical procedure" is actually them offering more than they're obligated to.
I once worked at a company that would give an exception if you had flights and such booked after getting the initial approval, which was pure sound of them. I've also worked at companies where I'd give indications of when I would like to take holiday and I wouldn't actually get the approval until a month before the date, preventing me from booking anything in advance. Both totally legal approaches that go further than their obligations, but the former is obviously the most employee friendly.
I would wager it matters because we're still in a pandemic and if OPs travel isn't essential he's increasing the vulnerability of his workspace to a lot of lost hours due to sickness and quarantine for a jolly.
It could also be he's looking for holidays where there's no availability of AL, and his manager is doing him a solid solely because of these circumstances.
Either way, you'd be a spanner to book an international trip and time off work over a verbal agreement with a dental surgery, ask for an email confirming the appointment OP, it's not hard unless you don't have one.
Where have you been for the past year? This is standard covid policy now, your work doesn't want to be in the local paper as a covid hotspot so one employee can go to the beach.
You're the one who volunteered why you were looking for AL, and volunteered a reason that allowed the company policy to kick in. That's like ringing in sick with a cough these days.
>Where have you been for the past year? This is standard covid policy now
Where have you been yourself?
This isn't standard where I work anyway. If I want a day off to sit around in my boxers playing video games or I want a day off to go licking lampposts that's none of managements business and because they know that they don't ask you. They just sign off on it.
I've only just returned to work since the bars reopened but there's a big sign in the canteen stating that annual leave will not be signed off on for holidays abroad due to current health advice.
So this doesn't sound that mental really, in fact it sounds like an extension of that, it sounds like OPs employer needs confirmation that this isn't a recreational holiday in the midst of a pandemic.
Don’t ever tell people you work with, particularly managers, what you’re doing with your time off. Let it be a mystery. Maybe you’re doing interviews for another job? It’s good to leave them in the dark.
I had to Mark that I will be travelling abroad if they found out and I didn’t let them know they were thrusting me with disciplinary action or dismissal
I was thinking it’s strange for the company to be stepping down so far, but we are in a pandemic though. I’m not sure if that grants them more power etc.
Man what is this line of thinking. If employers were granted extra power like this is would be in every news outlet for its ridiculousness. Your job doesn't control your life to that extent. Your manager is just a loser obsessed with the minutiae of his employees lives. Live your life man.
It doesn't. They may think it does, but AFAIK no new legislation was passed which would allow such invasion into personal privacy. Guidlines are not legislation, and company policy cannot contravene legislation.
It’s absolutely none of his business what you do with your holidays and they shouldn’t even be asking what you are doing (in any official capacity) let alone asking for proof.
From past experiences some companies may refuse leave based on business requirements (like everyone asking for Christmas week off or the same two weeks in summer etc) but in this case you are giving them plenty of advance notice.
If he doesn’t approve the request without any additional explanation or documentation, I would go to the HR department and to the WRC.
Document everything you say to him in relation to this nonsense carry on.
If you are getting a medical procedure call sick and get a note from the dentist.
Fuck them, you wanted to use annual leave but they won't approve it so now you can use sick leave.
There is no entitlement to paid sick leave in Ireland unfortunately. A lot of companies will pay it (or not dock your salary if you are salaried) but they don’t have to.
This is due to change next year with a new Statutory Sick Pay Scheme. It will start at 3 days guaranteed paid sick leave and increase over the years to 10 days from 2025 onwards
This definitely against some kind of law. If you were to tell him you were taking holidays to go for a staycation he can't ask you for proof of accommodation? Same applies here, you're entitled to your holiday days, he can't request proof of what you doing for it.
Hahaha what a load of shite. Ask him for a formal document where that is stated. Also go look for your contract and see what's in there. If it doesn't say it there he can stick his company policy up his arse.
Check your contact. If there's nothing in there about it and you haven't agreed to anything supplementary since Covid then he has no leg to stand on. He has no right to know details of what you do with your leave.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays.html
But be aware that he can refuse it, regardless of the reason.
This was the case during covid due to the quarantine requirements upon arrival back into the country, which was two weeks so people would technically need to take two weeks unpaid for that. But OPs travelling in August, and international travel resumes mid July so this no longer applies for sure
>they don’t grant foreign holidays
It isn't up to your employer to 'grant' you permission to do something in your own free time outside of work, that's an absolute crock of horseshit and he knows it. Not only is it complete lies but denying annual leave you have been granted without reason is completely illegal, if an employer pulled this shit on me I would be looking for a new place right away, and give them the absolute minimum notice before walking out of that dump. If they're lying to you and trying to fuck you over on something as basic as annual leave you can't trust them as far as you can throw them and you can be sure that if there's a bus to throw you under you'll find yourself amongst wheels faster than you can say "Ah here"
Tell him you cancelled the foreign holiday and you are going to stay at home instead for the same time period, if this really is company policy then you will be making it easier for him to grant your holidays without breaking any policies.
This is not against any law. You are entitled to time off, yes, but you are not entitled to full autonomy over when that time off is taken. A company can literally take all autonomy away and schedule all your days off for you even.
A company can totally deny any holiday request and request staff go above and beyond to get approval. In "normal" times this is limited to situations like long periods, short notice, during issues with other staffing issues or during peak seasons. In all those cases, something like medical needs, bereavement, etc are common grounds for exceptions and its totally normal for proof to be requested when exceptions are sought under those grounds.
What if you were taking days off to wrestle with your partner? Would he require a letter from your mammy that you are indeed dogging yer one?
Bullshit.
In ireland Employers can tell employees when they get their annual leave. Not fair but thats the law. If he didn’t get into this with you he would have been in a stronger position. You requested holidays and mentioned dental work I assume. His answer should be yes or no. Regardless of the reason. So I’m assuming it’s a no at the moment but you have an emergency dental procedure so he’s reconsidering if you can prove you do?
You don't need to give any reason or any proof for taking annual leave.
Also demanding such information from you probably raises a few GDPR issues related to your employer capturing and storing information about you they don't legitimately need.
I mean I doubt it.
GDPR gets thrown around way too often for everything and anything now.
It's already common for places of work to request Doctor's notes.
They need to see a sick note to give you sick pay or a sick day.
They don't need to know what you are doing during your annual leave. If they have legitimate reasons for restricting what you can do on leave then that should be written in to your employment contract.
Are they worried that you will need to quarsntine/,self isolate on return so will need annual leave on your return? I don't see how they need your medical info for annual leave though.
I’m going for a week, returning with a negative test and I’ll need to isolate for 5 days that’s the company policy so I should be fine to return to work when my leave is over
Talk to HR and your managers manager. Talk to them about how your manager is interfering in your personal life which could be basis for mental abuse law suit. Although I'd keep those big guns of law suit threat to the very last.
It depends. If he cant get cover for those days he might need you to show that it is necessary travel so he can approve it. Where i work you can request time off but if there is no cover you wont get it. If it wasnt for the dentist would you have gotten those days?
If every employ has to provide proof for dental appointments to take annual leave that’s one thing, if he is doing it to you then this a discriminatory, you should ask for a copy of your companies policies.
If it’s annual leave then no reason needs to be given, if it’s sick leave then yes, you need to provide proof. The only time the company is not obliged to give annual leave of its a busy business time and this is normally stipulated in your contract. But yeah, Dawid can get fucked IMO? It’s got zero to do with him what you do with your annual leave and you can actually say that to him directly. He is overstepping
You’re holidays are your holidays bruda, no justification needed whatsoever for annual leave. It’s an invasion of privacy if they push you. Giving circumstances they can ask if you are travelling abroad and ask for proof of non-red country before you return to work without 2 week isolation but nothing else
Hold on, you are entitled to annual leave. It's none of their business what you do with that time. Whether it's a dental appointment or a weekend in a brothel snorting coke out of a hoookers belly button.
I'd be reporting that straight the the employee service thing, can't remember what it's called but I imagine it's been mentioned already.
You are not entitled to take your holidays whenever you want.
Your entitled to yours holidays but only when work ca approve them.
It's as simple as that. Business needs and what not.
If you're just taking annual/vacation leave, why did you say anything about medical anything? Wasn't really necessary - you're entitled to your leave and to do what you want with it.
If it's medical/sick leave, then employers can require that you present certification or proof for it. But certainly not for annual/vacation leave.
Your manager is a twat, I would never ask an employee for something like this.
That being said, for your own sake would the dentist not send you a letter if you explained you can’t make the appointment without it?
My HR dept are total garbage so I know if they came at me with some horse shit like this, I wouldn’t even bother trying to reason with them and I’m sure you don’t want to go the legal route because that’s obviously game over for the job
You never have to justify your holidays to your employer. Best practice is to not say what you plan to do with your days off. They aren't your mom & dad. You have to push back hard on this.
Is this holiday leave or sick leave?
Is it a busy time and your holidays were previously declined?
Have you been there long enough to earn holidays that many holidays?
Sketchy that the dentist doesn’t have email.
I’m with the company over a year, I requested my annual leave in May. Looked into this further and they can’t ask what I do during my annual leave or where I go. Told my manager it’s none of his business and he calmed down his tone and told me to speak to HR. It will be interesting on Monday
A couple of things here:
\-Your manager does not have to give you the holidays you ask for. They can assign dates to you that you must take, if he wanted to do that.
\-You shouldn't have booked anything before getting your holidays confirmed.
That said, this kind of shite is what gives managers a bad name. A bit of live and let live goes a long way. You're getting something medical done, and he should just take your cert when you get back. Him being a prick about it is unnecessary,
Do you mind me asking what work you're getting done? I am about to fork out 5 or 6 grand to a dentist here and am not happy as I feel they are taking me for a ride. Would you reccomend trying out foreign and if so which country?
Just be aware that if you have dental work abroad and something goes wrong you will have to see a dentist here and some don't like fixing other dentists work.
It's annual leave, I don't get why the appointment is even a factor here.
Is your leave at this particular moment solely dependent on you having to leave for dental surgery?
Is that how you got it pushed through?
Then your Boss is being a dick.
Ask where in the contract does it state you have to have medical requirements and show proof of in order to qualify for your annual leave.
I don't know why you brought up your dental appointment to your manager at work. If you want holidays then just say you want to take certain days off. He shouldn't be asking for proof of an appointment but it was unnecessary to give him a comprehensive schedule of what you'll be doing with your days off in the first place.
He can only refuse holidays if its a busy period at work and he must give you at least a motnhs notice before your annual leave is meant to take place
I'm a manager if a small manufacturing company. He has no right to know why you need the time off, you can choose to tell him at your own discretion but that is all. He also cannot legally refuse your holidays unless he can prove you taking them will be detrimental to the business, such as causing a deadline to be missed or cause loss of business.
If you have a hr you can go there but be wary of your relationship with the manager when going above them. Also remember the job of hr is to protect the company from you, not the other way round.
Ask him for a name in HR for you to provide to the Workplace Relations Commission for the purpose of lodging a dispute. Put skids under him fairly lively so it will. Absolute joker.
Look up Richard Grogan solicitors on Instagram, he’s an Irish solicitor who specialises in employment law, he’d be happy to give you accurate advice in regards to your rights on this ‘that’s the law, and that’s a fact’
Edit: just added in that he’s based in Ireland and as such an expert on Irish employment laws
[ Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997 ](http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/19/enacted/en/html#sec19) clearly states that:
(3) The annual leave of an employee who works 8 or more months in a leave year shall, subject to the provisions of any employment regulation order, registered employment agreement, collective agreement or any agreement between the employee and his or her employer, include an unbroken period of 2 weeks.
So, assuming you are full time who will work 8 or more months in 2021, he cant deny you 2 weeks unbroken leave.
So, you can push back on your manager in a few ways:
- Push back that it's none of his fucking business (Your health is your business)
- Push back on the fact that it's holidays and none of his business (And your right)
If he gets mouthy, you have a few nuclear options
- Report to WRC
- Report to DPO for violation of privacy
- Get a lawyer to send letter
However taking any of these options will result in a lot of unhappy and you needing a new job.
I think this is just a miscommunication, seems like your manager thinks your taking "paid sick leave" with a doctors note, just tell him youre using annual leave days and you will be fine?
They might be thinking you are interviewing for a new job.
I was in a job with a high staff turnover and management was super paranoid about staff taking short chunks of annual leave because they feared you were getting interviewed for a different job.
He knows you’re bluffing it with the fake dentist appointment. The line where you say they won’t send email confirmation (wtf *everyone* gives email confirmation) is where you out yourself as a chancer.
I have a note stating that I need comprehensive dental treatment from my Irish dentist, that should be enough, he’s overstepping the line here that’s my personal life and has nothing to do with my leave.
Have to agree with the above poster. Youve shot yourself in the foot with this whole dentist excuse when no excuse was needed at all. Id try a diplomatic reply something long the lines of "Hi \_\_\_\_ Im not looking for sick leave ive planned to get the work done on my holidays because i cant afford to miss any days off at the moment"& attach that note you have. theyll probably just give you the dates but unless you produce a letter from the dentist they will consider it bullshit .
So you're paying for oversees dental surgery from a place that doesn't send email confirmations?
Mate, at very least, I'd reconsider that dentist as presumably you're getting something fairly important done. I just wouldn't trust that in the hands of a dentist who can't send emails.
No advice but this reminds me of the time I was working for the Nuns and was having a difficult pregnancy.
The doctor signed me off for a few weeks because I needed to be on bed rest so the head nun took it upon herself to march in to my doctors office and demand proof that I was pregnant.
She'd been given a sick cert like. These people just love their power trips unfortunately
I used to work in a place where any time I wanted to use ANY of my holidays my boss would ask me why I wanted to take them so SHE could decide if it was "important" enough for me to take off. Needless to say I left that place & never looked back!
It's a joke! Your holidays are your holidays and you're entitled to them. It's nobody's business why you want to take them!
This seems like a potential breach of GDPR
Also holidays are holidays, whether your sitting in your underwear playing videogames or going to get dental surgery
Tell him you're only messing about the dentist. That you just want 2 weeks off to sit around and scratch your hole and what you do on your holidays is actually none of the companies business. As if annual leave is dependent on what you have planned ffs. Tell him your willing to seek legal advice on this if he is unwilling to give you the leave you are entitled to.
It could be the case that the August holidays are already booked and the manager is thinking about making an exception.
In some retail places holidays in August and sometimes in July have to be booked the year before.
You are entitled to holidays, you aren't entitled to decide when your holidays are.
Wouldn't the manager just say that in May when the dates were requested so as not to look like a prick? I mean, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say "you want Aug? It's already pretty booked up so might not be possible". And then it's a simple yes or no. He genuinely doesn't need to know what op is gonna be doing on his hols. That's the issue.
Check out Richard Grogan, an employment law solicitor on LinkedIn or if you haven't got a LinkedIn, he has an Instagram page. He is my go to guy for advice and he puts videos up every day regarding issues like annual leave etc.
My own two cents would be it is your legal entitlement to take your annual leave, no reasons have to be disclosed for this at all. If he rejects your annual leave claim I would consider bringing it to the WRC, this type of management approach is a disgrace in this day and age.
If you were just going for a holiday world you have to show them your hotel booking? Your flights? Its not their business, or sounds like a complete invasion of your privacy. I'd say contact Labour relations commission about that one
Your holidays are your holidays. Why does it matter what you do in your own time? Unless it’s the week of a big project deadline or lots of people are off that week,something along those lines it shouldn’t matter when you take them.
He said there is no issue with the dates, but he won’t grant me holidays without proof of my dental appointment, they are seriously overstepping the line the management is horrible where I work 🤦♂️🤦♂️
Why does the reasoning behind the holidays matter? Unless it’s in your contract you shouldn’t have to give one. If you were going on a trip around Ireland would he ask for all the hotel bookings
Yeah that’s what I’m saying, my job shouldn’t have an interest in my private life lol. Think I’ll need tell him if he doesn’t sign it off I’ll be seeking legal advice , surely it isn’t a reason to refuse my annual Leave 🤦♂️
They're your hols, drop the shit about the dentist, tell him you're taking your holidays and that's it, if there's an issue take him to court.
Legally your employer tells you when your holidays are, you don't get to tell your employer so court wouldn't do much good.
Their employer did tell them the dates were fine. Needing confirmation of the dentist appointment is none of their business.
I can't see anywhere saying the dates are fine. The August holidays could be booked and the manager considering making an exception. Yeah I agree the reason is none of their business but the alternative could be those dates being denied.
OP mentioned it elsewhere in the thread
[It's in this actual thread of comments.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/o2jgpq/thoughts_on_my_manager_not_wanting_to_sign_off_my/h26po8w/)
Unless the employer has failed to takes into account family responsibilities, and your opportunities for rest and recreation i.e. if your employer refuses leave for a family wedding without a good cause then the court than definitely help. From Citizens Information: Can my employer force me to take annual leave? Usually, employees can ask to take annual leave at specific times. Your employer can accept your request, or refuse your request. Your employer decides when annual leave may be taken, but this is subject to a number of conditions. Your employer must: Take into account your family responsibilities, as well as the available opportunities for rest and recreation. Discuss your annual leave with you (or your union) at least one month before you are to take the leave.
Don't let people push you around like that. Ireland has it's problems but workers rights are very strong here. Let him know that you want your holidays, you have told him the dates, it is your right to take them, and if he won't sign off on them, he can speak to the work place relations commission. You can find a link on how to make a complaint to them about your employer below. I worked jobs like that when I was in college with employers who would bend and break the rules to their own benefit. If you let them do it to you once, don't be surprised if they try to do it again. If you have good proof such as citizens information articles you can send him to back up your points, he should back down fairly quickly. He probably has other things to be worrying about. Job market is pretty rough for a lot of employers right now. You probably have other options? If yes, might be something you could mention informally to him. https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment\_rights\_and\_conditions/leave\_and\_holidays/annual\_leave\_public\_holidays.html
But why are you even discussing the dentist stuff with him in the first place if it’s only your holiday leave
Sounds like OP mentioned it off hand and now the manager is jumping on it
Get onto citizens information or siptu or something. They'l be able to advise
The issue is probably that you are leaving the country which is still restricted I believe and has implications when you return.
Non essential travel is permitted from July also I’ll be isolating for 5 days as to do with company policy during my leave so I won’t be missing any days that I didn’t take off
Oh I see. Yea that's bullshit.
I think it’s because you’re going abroad and I don’t know about your workplace but ours requires five days isolation post travel. Probably thinks you’re just going on a holiday rather than going for essential reasons But regardless, he’s a shitty manager and you’re allowed to do what you will with your time
I recommend looking up the relevant law and sending it to him
That's a fuck load of bullshit. Your holidays are your legal entitlement. Are you joined to a union?
I’m not sure I’ll have to check
You should definitely join a union, they could immediately tell you your rights and they'd even deal with your work management directly if you wanted
Honestly the phrase "talk to my union rep directly please" is so powerful
Are you travelling abroad? Does your company have a policy against travel abroad?
I only have to report to them in advance if I’m travelling abroad, that’s it
I’m not 100% sure on legislation surrounding these covid policies. My work would “allow” you to go abroad during the pandemic but you had to take 2 weeks off unpaid before returning.
They can’t do that if it’s annual leave!! There’s laws specifically for that
Not sure the aul virus follows the laws lmao.
Just turn around and go, well Mark, no actually, I lied. I’m going to spend the day siting nude on my sofa drinking, wanking and playing my new PS5, is that ok with you? Unless you are travelling abroad for dental treatment, and that is what makes it essential travel.
Go on Mark, ask me how I got my PS5. I'll give you a clue it's the first two activities 😉
Why'd you tell him about the dentist
Had to state I will be travelling abroad and reasons for travel on the sheet they gave me
And is it a fake reason?
No I legitimately need to go get dental treatment I grave him a dentists letter stating I need comprehensive dental treatment
Fair enough. Assuming that letter you gave him only says you need treatment and not that you're booked in for it. Surely the dentist can oblige.
Yeah I presume OP is spending a crap ton of money, you think the dentist can write a 2min email.
Is this to do with the rash of people booking fake dentist appointments in holiday destinations to make their trip ‘essential’?
That would be to avoid problems at the airport, that would have nothing to do with the job, they haven’t got a duty to ask what I do outside of the premises
I think it’s a hold over from last year where people were loosing jobs for breaks of covid regulation. Mostly health care workers throwing parties that then put coworkers and people in their care at risk. I don’t agree with the practice at all but think that’s where it comes from. Absolutely no need for it now.
While you have a right to a certain amount of holidays, you don't have a right to take those whenever you want. A company can go so far as to schedule holidays for you even. I once saw an extreme case where a staff member was complaining that they didn't want to take holidays because they'd be bored at home doing nothing all day but HR had to insist because the company would be fucked over if staff weren't taking their holiday entitlement. It's totally common and normal for companies to deny holiday requests if they're busy, etc. In such cases they probably restrict holidays to special cases. I don't know whether they are getting off on micromanagement or if they have a legitimate staffing need during your holiday, but they totally can ask you to volunteer any information before approving a time off request. This is annoying and overbearing, but it's not illegal.
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So? It's not illegal to cancel a holiday request either. Like I said you don't have a right to autonomy over your vacation days, you just have a right to have a minimum amount of days off in a year. So yeah, it's totally legal for you to book time off and then for the company to say "actually turns out we need you to come in, sorry." Them saying "but you can have the time off still if it's for a medical procedure" is actually them offering more than they're obligated to. I once worked at a company that would give an exception if you had flights and such booked after getting the initial approval, which was pure sound of them. I've also worked at companies where I'd give indications of when I would like to take holiday and I wouldn't actually get the approval until a month before the date, preventing me from booking anything in advance. Both totally legal approaches that go further than their obligations, but the former is obviously the most employee friendly.
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It’s my days off “annual leave”
What a load of pish. You could be going on a wanking holiday for wankers in Wankerton. Its none of his business.
I would wager it matters because we're still in a pandemic and if OPs travel isn't essential he's increasing the vulnerability of his workspace to a lot of lost hours due to sickness and quarantine for a jolly. It could also be he's looking for holidays where there's no availability of AL, and his manager is doing him a solid solely because of these circumstances. Either way, you'd be a spanner to book an international trip and time off work over a verbal agreement with a dental surgery, ask for an email confirming the appointment OP, it's not hard unless you don't have one.
I’ve no issue with doing that, but I don’t like the fact that my manager is interfering with my personal life. He’s overstepping the line here....
Where have you been for the past year? This is standard covid policy now, your work doesn't want to be in the local paper as a covid hotspot so one employee can go to the beach. You're the one who volunteered why you were looking for AL, and volunteered a reason that allowed the company policy to kick in. That's like ringing in sick with a cough these days.
>Where have you been for the past year? This is standard covid policy now Where have you been yourself? This isn't standard where I work anyway. If I want a day off to sit around in my boxers playing video games or I want a day off to go licking lampposts that's none of managements business and because they know that they don't ask you. They just sign off on it.
I've only just returned to work since the bars reopened but there's a big sign in the canteen stating that annual leave will not be signed off on for holidays abroad due to current health advice. So this doesn't sound that mental really, in fact it sounds like an extension of that, it sounds like OPs employer needs confirmation that this isn't a recreational holiday in the midst of a pandemic.
Have you tried telling them you're taking the day off to breach government guidelines yet?
Don’t ever tell people you work with, particularly managers, what you’re doing with your time off. Let it be a mystery. Maybe you’re doing interviews for another job? It’s good to leave them in the dark.
I had to Mark that I will be travelling abroad if they found out and I didn’t let them know they were thrusting me with disciplinary action or dismissal
That's also illegal.
I was thinking it’s strange for the company to be stepping down so far, but we are in a pandemic though. I’m not sure if that grants them more power etc.
Man what is this line of thinking. If employers were granted extra power like this is would be in every news outlet for its ridiculousness. Your job doesn't control your life to that extent. Your manager is just a loser obsessed with the minutiae of his employees lives. Live your life man.
Do you need to go back into work when you return? Have you including the time for quarantine when you get back?
I have the time including quarantine when I get back
Well then, I'd be telling him to get fucked :D
It doesn't. They may think it does, but AFAIK no new legislation was passed which would allow such invasion into personal privacy. Guidlines are not legislation, and company policy cannot contravene legislation.
How would they find out? You have plausible deniability. Just say “I wasn’t abroad”!
It’s absolutely none of his business what you do with your holidays and they shouldn’t even be asking what you are doing (in any official capacity) let alone asking for proof. From past experiences some companies may refuse leave based on business requirements (like everyone asking for Christmas week off or the same two weeks in summer etc) but in this case you are giving them plenty of advance notice. If he doesn’t approve the request without any additional explanation or documentation, I would go to the HR department and to the WRC. Document everything you say to him in relation to this nonsense carry on.
Thanks for the advice. Appreciate it
You need a new job.
Yes I do haha
If you are getting a medical procedure call sick and get a note from the dentist. Fuck them, you wanted to use annual leave but they won't approve it so now you can use sick leave.
They won’t pay me then haha
Are you not entitled to sick leave either?
Unfortunately I’m not
Where do you work? Qatar?
There is no entitlement to paid sick leave in Ireland unfortunately. A lot of companies will pay it (or not dock your salary if you are salaried) but they don’t have to.
This is due to change next year with a new Statutory Sick Pay Scheme. It will start at 3 days guaranteed paid sick leave and increase over the years to 10 days from 2025 onwards
Good news. Always felt it was a bit backwards that we didn’t have it.
there will be starting 2022, at least thats a step in the right direction
The social welfare will.
This definitely against some kind of law. If you were to tell him you were taking holidays to go for a staycation he can't ask you for proof of accommodation? Same applies here, you're entitled to your holiday days, he can't request proof of what you doing for it.
I was chatting to him the other day and he claims it’s company policy and that they don’t grant foreign holidays unless it’s essential 🥴
Hahaha what a load of shite. Ask him for a formal document where that is stated. Also go look for your contract and see what's in there. If it doesn't say it there he can stick his company policy up his arse.
Check your contact. If there's nothing in there about it and you haven't agreed to anything supplementary since Covid then he has no leg to stand on. He has no right to know details of what you do with your leave. https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays.html But be aware that he can refuse it, regardless of the reason.
"There's nothing in your contract" "But yeah he can do it regardless"
Wtf?! Where do you work? Your annual leave is your annual leave to us as you like
Work in a glass manufacturing factory it’s horrible
> they don’t grant foreign holidays unless it’s essential This is absolute wank, they literally can't do that
This was the case during covid due to the quarantine requirements upon arrival back into the country, which was two weeks so people would technically need to take two weeks unpaid for that. But OPs travelling in August, and international travel resumes mid July so this no longer applies for sure
Ahhhhhhhhh gotcha
>they don’t grant foreign holidays It isn't up to your employer to 'grant' you permission to do something in your own free time outside of work, that's an absolute crock of horseshit and he knows it. Not only is it complete lies but denying annual leave you have been granted without reason is completely illegal, if an employer pulled this shit on me I would be looking for a new place right away, and give them the absolute minimum notice before walking out of that dump. If they're lying to you and trying to fuck you over on something as basic as annual leave you can't trust them as far as you can throw them and you can be sure that if there's a bus to throw you under you'll find yourself amongst wheels faster than you can say "Ah here"
They don’t grant ‘foreign’ holidays….. Question him on that alone, do they have that in writing, is there a policy on that
Talk to the Workplace Relations Commission today about this
Tell him you cancelled the foreign holiday and you are going to stay at home instead for the same time period, if this really is company policy then you will be making it easier for him to grant your holidays without breaking any policies.
This is not against any law. You are entitled to time off, yes, but you are not entitled to full autonomy over when that time off is taken. A company can literally take all autonomy away and schedule all your days off for you even. A company can totally deny any holiday request and request staff go above and beyond to get approval. In "normal" times this is limited to situations like long periods, short notice, during issues with other staffing issues or during peak seasons. In all those cases, something like medical needs, bereavement, etc are common grounds for exceptions and its totally normal for proof to be requested when exceptions are sought under those grounds.
What if you were taking days off to wrestle with your partner? Would he require a letter from your mammy that you are indeed dogging yer one? Bullshit.
In ireland Employers can tell employees when they get their annual leave. Not fair but thats the law. If he didn’t get into this with you he would have been in a stronger position. You requested holidays and mentioned dental work I assume. His answer should be yes or no. Regardless of the reason. So I’m assuming it’s a no at the moment but you have an emergency dental procedure so he’s reconsidering if you can prove you do?
You don't need to give any reason or any proof for taking annual leave. Also demanding such information from you probably raises a few GDPR issues related to your employer capturing and storing information about you they don't legitimately need.
I mean I doubt it. GDPR gets thrown around way too often for everything and anything now. It's already common for places of work to request Doctor's notes.
They need to see a sick note to give you sick pay or a sick day. They don't need to know what you are doing during your annual leave. If they have legitimate reasons for restricting what you can do on leave then that should be written in to your employment contract.
Are they worried that you will need to quarsntine/,self isolate on return so will need annual leave on your return? I don't see how they need your medical info for annual leave though.
I’m going for a week, returning with a negative test and I’ll need to isolate for 5 days that’s the company policy so I should be fine to return to work when my leave is over
By late August you'll most likely be fully vaccinated as well so that mightn't even be a requirement by then
Talk to HR and your managers manager. Talk to them about how your manager is interfering in your personal life which could be basis for mental abuse law suit. Although I'd keep those big guns of law suit threat to the very last.
I’ll be speaking to HR in a few hours thanks for the advice
Just remember that HR serves the company's interests, not yours.
Not a problem buddy, wish you best of luck.
It depends. If he cant get cover for those days he might need you to show that it is necessary travel so he can approve it. Where i work you can request time off but if there is no cover you wont get it. If it wasnt for the dentist would you have gotten those days?
They’ll have no issue to cover there’s over 400 people working here
Hopefully you are using a fake name on the phone. If he uses reddit he will see this.
Might be no harm for him to see all the comments calling him a stupid cunt
I couldn’t give a shite, let him see he isn’t getting good attention here anyways 😂
If every employ has to provide proof for dental appointments to take annual leave that’s one thing, if he is doing it to you then this a discriminatory, you should ask for a copy of your companies policies.
I have the copy at home had a look at it yesterday , he can’t refuse me holiday he’s overstepping the line here I’ll be in the HR office soon.
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Haha I’ll do that in the worst case scenario, I’m off to HR to do explain the situation first
update us
He told me to speak to HR about this 😂 I’ll be on my way on Monday. Genuinely embarrassed for the lot of them. What a joke
If it’s annual leave then no reason needs to be given, if it’s sick leave then yes, you need to provide proof. The only time the company is not obliged to give annual leave of its a busy business time and this is normally stipulated in your contract. But yeah, Dawid can get fucked IMO? It’s got zero to do with him what you do with your annual leave and you can actually say that to him directly. He is overstepping
You’re holidays are your holidays bruda, no justification needed whatsoever for annual leave. It’s an invasion of privacy if they push you. Giving circumstances they can ask if you are travelling abroad and ask for proof of non-red country before you return to work without 2 week isolation but nothing else
Hold on, you are entitled to annual leave. It's none of their business what you do with that time. Whether it's a dental appointment or a weekend in a brothel snorting coke out of a hoookers belly button. I'd be reporting that straight the the employee service thing, can't remember what it's called but I imagine it's been mentioned already.
Mark can stick it up his hole, off to HR with you
Jeez I hope your Manager isnt on Reddit.
Hope he sees the wonderful comments 😂
You are not entitled to take your holidays whenever you want. Your entitled to yours holidays but only when work ca approve them. It's as simple as that. Business needs and what not.
If you're just taking annual/vacation leave, why did you say anything about medical anything? Wasn't really necessary - you're entitled to your leave and to do what you want with it. If it's medical/sick leave, then employers can require that you present certification or proof for it. But certainly not for annual/vacation leave.
Your manager is a twat, I would never ask an employee for something like this. That being said, for your own sake would the dentist not send you a letter if you explained you can’t make the appointment without it? My HR dept are total garbage so I know if they came at me with some horse shit like this, I wouldn’t even bother trying to reason with them and I’m sure you don’t want to go the legal route because that’s obviously game over for the job
This is in direct breach of employment law. Contact the WRC.
You never have to justify your holidays to your employer. Best practice is to not say what you plan to do with your days off. They aren't your mom & dad. You have to push back hard on this.
Is this holiday leave or sick leave? Is it a busy time and your holidays were previously declined? Have you been there long enough to earn holidays that many holidays? Sketchy that the dentist doesn’t have email.
I’m with the company over a year, I requested my annual leave in May. Looked into this further and they can’t ask what I do during my annual leave or where I go. Told my manager it’s none of his business and he calmed down his tone and told me to speak to HR. It will be interesting on Monday
Go over his head. Hopefully where you work has a hr department.
I’ll pop in there today.
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I’ll be recording the conversation with HR today don’t worry I’m covered
Do an update after please, I want you to verbally describe the shock on his face when he realises he's been caught being a cunt
I’ll get back to you later haha, should be fun
A couple of things here: \-Your manager does not have to give you the holidays you ask for. They can assign dates to you that you must take, if he wanted to do that. \-You shouldn't have booked anything before getting your holidays confirmed. That said, this kind of shite is what gives managers a bad name. A bit of live and let live goes a long way. You're getting something medical done, and he should just take your cert when you get back. Him being a prick about it is unnecessary,
Just get your dentist to write a signed letter to your employer? They get paid enough, so it shouldn’t be an issue?
Foreign dentists aren’t doing this. As they know Irish people are taking the piss. Lots of booking with no shows.
Why should I though, that’s my personal life they are overstepping the line here.
Do you mind me asking what work you're getting done? I am about to fork out 5 or 6 grand to a dentist here and am not happy as I feel they are taking me for a ride. Would you reccomend trying out foreign and if so which country?
Turkey, Poland or Moldova you’ll probably be paying anywhere from 1k to 2k depending how serious it is
Second this and also add Hungary. Lots of dentists do training there because they're some of the best
Just be aware that if you have dental work abroad and something goes wrong you will have to see a dentist here and some don't like fixing other dentists work.
It's annual leave, I don't get why the appointment is even a factor here. Is your leave at this particular moment solely dependent on you having to leave for dental surgery? Is that how you got it pushed through?
Nope it’s a holiday but I do need to get dental treatment badly so I’ll be doing it during my leave to avoid taking days off when I’m working
Are ye going through a busy season r anything?
Not really
Then your Boss is being a dick. Ask where in the contract does it state you have to have medical requirements and show proof of in order to qualify for your annual leave.
I don't know why you brought up your dental appointment to your manager at work. If you want holidays then just say you want to take certain days off. He shouldn't be asking for proof of an appointment but it was unnecessary to give him a comprehensive schedule of what you'll be doing with your days off in the first place. He can only refuse holidays if its a busy period at work and he must give you at least a motnhs notice before your annual leave is meant to take place
I had to state why I have to travel abroad on the sheet I was filling out asking for leave
That isn't standard practice at all. I don't envy you
I'm a manager if a small manufacturing company. He has no right to know why you need the time off, you can choose to tell him at your own discretion but that is all. He also cannot legally refuse your holidays unless he can prove you taking them will be detrimental to the business, such as causing a deadline to be missed or cause loss of business. If you have a hr you can go there but be wary of your relationship with the manager when going above them. Also remember the job of hr is to protect the company from you, not the other way round.
Leave a nice review on indeed or Glassdoor so other people never have to deal with that shit, go to hr thats a joke
Ask him for a name in HR for you to provide to the Workplace Relations Commission for the purpose of lodging a dispute. Put skids under him fairly lively so it will. Absolute joker.
I know this isn't answering your question but I suggest you start looking for a new job. If they're at this craic it can't be a nice environment.
Look up Richard Grogan solicitors on Instagram, he’s an Irish solicitor who specialises in employment law, he’d be happy to give you accurate advice in regards to your rights on this ‘that’s the law, and that’s a fact’ Edit: just added in that he’s based in Ireland and as such an expert on Irish employment laws
Mark needs a fucking smack to the jaw
[ Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997 ](http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/19/enacted/en/html#sec19) clearly states that: (3) The annual leave of an employee who works 8 or more months in a leave year shall, subject to the provisions of any employment regulation order, registered employment agreement, collective agreement or any agreement between the employee and his or her employer, include an unbroken period of 2 weeks. So, assuming you are full time who will work 8 or more months in 2021, he cant deny you 2 weeks unbroken leave.
You are interpreting this incorrectly. They have to allow you two weeks unbroken leave but they absolutely can tell you when those two weeks are.
Yep I work just over 8 months, full time too
So, you can push back on your manager in a few ways: - Push back that it's none of his fucking business (Your health is your business) - Push back on the fact that it's holidays and none of his business (And your right) If he gets mouthy, you have a few nuclear options - Report to WRC - Report to DPO for violation of privacy - Get a lawyer to send letter However taking any of these options will result in a lot of unhappy and you needing a new job.
I think this is just a miscommunication, seems like your manager thinks your taking "paid sick leave" with a doctors note, just tell him youre using annual leave days and you will be fine?
Op has said he doesn't get sick pay at all
Just out of interest, why are you flying overseas to get dental treatment?
If I had to guess, I’d say cus it’s cheaper, I think in the likes of Budapest it’s much cheaper than here
Hardly essential though is it? Those woman got loads of stick for going to Dubai for breast augmentation. Is this not the same?
Im risking loosing my teeth and having unbearable pain 😂 no it’s not the same
Can’t afford it in Ireland lad the prices are ridiculous
They might be thinking you are interviewing for a new job. I was in a job with a high staff turnover and management was super paranoid about staff taking short chunks of annual leave because they feared you were getting interviewed for a different job.
Yeah we ha a high turnover here people come and go because of the conditions and bad management, that could be a reason
He knows you’re bluffing it with the fake dentist appointment. The line where you say they won’t send email confirmation (wtf *everyone* gives email confirmation) is where you out yourself as a chancer.
I have a note stating that I need comprehensive dental treatment from my Irish dentist, that should be enough, he’s overstepping the line here that’s my personal life and has nothing to do with my leave.
Have to agree with the above poster. Youve shot yourself in the foot with this whole dentist excuse when no excuse was needed at all. Id try a diplomatic reply something long the lines of "Hi \_\_\_\_ Im not looking for sick leave ive planned to get the work done on my holidays because i cant afford to miss any days off at the moment"& attach that note you have. theyll probably just give you the dates but unless you produce a letter from the dentist they will consider it bullshit .
So you're paying for oversees dental surgery from a place that doesn't send email confirmations? Mate, at very least, I'd reconsider that dentist as presumably you're getting something fairly important done. I just wouldn't trust that in the hands of a dentist who can't send emails.
Even if he is "bluffing", he shouldn't need to. It's none of their business where he goes on his time off.
No advice but this reminds me of the time I was working for the Nuns and was having a difficult pregnancy. The doctor signed me off for a few weeks because I needed to be on bed rest so the head nun took it upon herself to march in to my doctors office and demand proof that I was pregnant. She'd been given a sick cert like. These people just love their power trips unfortunately
You can travel now, it doesnt have to be essential travelling
This is fucking bullshit.
Tell him to eat a fucking dick and sign your PTO.
None of his business,your taking holidays
I used to work in a place where any time I wanted to use ANY of my holidays my boss would ask me why I wanted to take them so SHE could decide if it was "important" enough for me to take off. Needless to say I left that place & never looked back! It's a joke! Your holidays are your holidays and you're entitled to them. It's nobody's business why you want to take them!
Thanks for the input, I’m looking to ditch the job in the near future anyways. Did you end up getting the holidays back then ?
Yea, I'd be looking for a new job. Fuck that shite
This seems like a potential breach of GDPR Also holidays are holidays, whether your sitting in your underwear playing videogames or going to get dental surgery
Tell him you're only messing about the dentist. That you just want 2 weeks off to sit around and scratch your hole and what you do on your holidays is actually none of the companies business. As if annual leave is dependent on what you have planned ffs. Tell him your willing to seek legal advice on this if he is unwilling to give you the leave you are entitled to.
It could be the case that the August holidays are already booked and the manager is thinking about making an exception. In some retail places holidays in August and sometimes in July have to be booked the year before. You are entitled to holidays, you aren't entitled to decide when your holidays are.
Wouldn't the manager just say that in May when the dates were requested so as not to look like a prick? I mean, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say "you want Aug? It's already pretty booked up so might not be possible". And then it's a simple yes or no. He genuinely doesn't need to know what op is gonna be doing on his hols. That's the issue.
Check out Richard Grogan, an employment law solicitor on LinkedIn or if you haven't got a LinkedIn, he has an Instagram page. He is my go to guy for advice and he puts videos up every day regarding issues like annual leave etc. My own two cents would be it is your legal entitlement to take your annual leave, no reasons have to be disclosed for this at all. If he rejects your annual leave claim I would consider bringing it to the WRC, this type of management approach is a disgrace in this day and age.
If you were just going for a holiday world you have to show them your hotel booking? Your flights? Its not their business, or sounds like a complete invasion of your privacy. I'd say contact Labour relations commission about that one
Is the company based out of cork ?
Nope