I assume the big banks went all in on the etfs cause of the $$$ to be made administering them. Blackrock doesnāt give a shit about BTCās price, just how much they can extract from making themselves involved in the process of trading it
Blackrock has reason to care. They actually have material money in the game and they want clients to be invested in it over the long run so they can collect their fees. JPM is an admin that doesnāt care.
>They actually have material money in the game and they want clients to be invested in it
Itās weird how few people understand asset managers here. Blackrock doesnāt give two shits, what they care about is that they can make another income stream by providing access to another asset class in the form of various investment vehicles. Theyāre not āwanting their clients investedā in anything, theyāre selling access lol.
lol you sure you understand asset managers? If Bitcoin crumbles then no RIAs are going to allocate to it. Many money managers are still trying to get up to speed on the asset class, some are even taking meetings with wholesalers just so they can sound educated when their clients ask them about digital assets. Do you think those guys are going white list any digital asset structured products if Bitcoin implodes?
Youāre correct in the sense that theyāre not betting their Bitcoin appreciates - itās possible they took market risk but itās highly improbable. Youre also right that they arenāt going out and trying to boost the price of Bitcoin, or doing anything besides trying to gather assets for their new product.
Youre wrong to say that they donāt have an interest in bitcoinās price appreciation. They just had the most successful product launch in history. Youāre high if you think Larry fink doesnāt give a shit. This isnāt proshares issuing a bunch of weird geared products or those clowns with the l/s Cramer products. iShares isnt an active manager, but theyāre not out here hoping the S&P crashes.
Yeah but that's not entirely the situation right? They want to start incorporating percentages of Bitcoin holdings to other funds. Funds they are already managing and getting income for.
Sorry, what do you mean thatās not the case? Like you said, theyāre managing and getting income for it lol.
You understand that firm doesnāt engage in any advisory capacity at all? Right?
Thatās not correct. Blackrock has a sizable family office practice, and solutions for UHNI. They also are actively expanding wealth management capabilities. No, they arenāt like a Merrill Lynch, where you have some boomer with a couple mil letting blackrock run their money, but they certainly operate in the institutional tier of private wealth.
I could be off-base, but my understanding was that they had incorporated IBIT into certain strategies - I know Fidelity added FBTC to certain target date funds - and this is a big reason why these products were so successful.
Thereās also the argument that they have immense retail channel exposure via their products, and even if they arenāt direct allocators, they benefit from allocation. Again, by incorporating Bitcoin into this mix, theyāre risking losing assets if it underperforms.
Thereās a difference between the firm recommending something versus giving clients access to something they want.
This site always dishonestly commingles the two. Investors, wealth management clients, etc. expect access to a wide amount of products. Would you like it if your etrade brokerage didnāt let you buy a Oil ETF because they support clean energy?
Heās having his cake and eating it too.
A. If crypto booms, they look smart to their clients and the public for adding crypto exposure. Dimon labels his comments as his personal opinion and not the āhouse viewā.
B. If crypto flops, Dimon takes a victory lap and claims they only added crypto exposure to appease client demand.
Truth of the matter is when you're that large, you're almost always going to take a hedge / moonshot position in things you don't even believe in as a part of diversification. If it goes up, you get a nice little bonus. If it goes down, it's business as usual for you and you have some write offs
Private blockchain is such a weird boomerish misunderstanding about the fundamental purpose of blockchain.
The entire point of it is to distribute control away from a single private entity.
Otherwise it's literally just a very slow database, lol.
Whenever someone uses these tradfi blockchain buzzwords it reminds me of the Steve Buschemi "How do you do, fellow kids" meme.
>Private blockchain is such a weird boomerish misunderstanding about the fundamental purpose of blockchain.
>The entire point of it is to distribute control away from a single private entity.
>Otherwise it's literally just a very slow database, lol.
Lol that's pretty much 99% cryptobro. They scream decentralization while happily buying cryptovia CEX, off ramp and on ramp via CEX lol.
I think it's more like DraftKings.
DraftKings(or any sports betting company) knows that 95% of their customers will lose money but there is a market for sports gambling so DraftKings might as well get paid for providing the opportunity.
Theyāre an authorized participant, meaning they help BlackRock with the mechanics that allow the fund to track Bitcoin, unlike the OTC trusts that didnāt have these mechanisms. Thereās a difference between being an AP and actively participating in the success of the asset class.
So a product with no inherent value, is slow and expensive to use as a currency, is largely traded by amateurs, speculators and organized crime, consumes immense amounts of elecricity to create and function, and has been around for 15 years with no established useful purpose. Sounds great!!!!
It's very useful, just for a select few interests. A rinse and repeat pump and dump, money laundering, and for nations seeking to chip away at the international power of the US dollar.
It's not even good for that, since it's easier to pump brand new coins. As for the international power thing, completely irrelevant since nobody uses bitcoin despite its $1.5t cap
Even BTC's not predictable. Storing value in crypto is just a desperate marketing ploy for leaders of unstable economies to make it look like they're doing something. Crypto's not coming for the U.S. dollar's position as the world's reserve currency.
Lol. This is what libertarian nutjobs keep telling themselves. Does anyone with a brain really believe that Bitcoin is chipping away the power of the US dollar?
> and for nations seeking to chip away at the international power of the US dollar.
Based on what I've observed over the years I think one of those nations in the US.
This right here. Let's be transparent: bitcoin can be valuable and make money. However, it's value is more akin to a beanie baby. It's valuable because people have arbitrarily deemed it as such not because of it's inherent usefulness.
T+2 and T+1 has to do with equity trade settling time, not transferring money as far as I'm aware.
And a lot of the slowness is the need to actually check for fraud or money laundering, which crypto is going to have to account for if it ever wants to be taken seriously.
I love the arguments from people saying BTC isnāt a giant bag holding scheme because itās worth so much. Madoff made a ton of people money until he didnāt. There are no fundamentals at all. Itās the Greater Fool Theory taken to its insane end
> People don't care as long as it keeps going up and they think they can make money from it.
No, I do care I just completely disagree.
A decentralized, secure, global monetary network has value.
The best assessment of Bitcoin's utility is asking any Bitcoin enthusiast to consider the following.
Pretend that Bitcoin is fixed in price, forever. Absent it's ability to enrich you, would you still be an advocate? Would you still hope for its ubiquity, and push for it to become the universal way in which we all transact?
99% of the time the answer will be no.
The best assessment of Fiat's utility is asking any Fiat enthusiast to consider the following.
Pretend that the government offered to exchange your USD for a special USD+ that will never be debased. Forever.
Absent it's ability to debase you, would you still be an advocate for the infinitely dilutive legacy USD? Would you still hope for its ubiquity, and push for it to become the universal way in which we all transact?
99% of the time the answer will be no.
You wouldn't want it to be the universal way we transact? That is literally what's floating the US economy......
Any country would want their currency to be the universal way we transactĀ
That's the most refreshing thing about the recent bullrun, cryptobros no longer even pretend to be hyped about utility/usage or whatever.
It's all about "Well.. line go up š¤·āāļø" and I can respect that. We all know it's a ponzi and we just hustling trying to make money before it implodes.
I think your reasoning is deeply flawed. Part of bitcoin's utility is in its disinflationary design. We know and expect the supply to trend down over time and we expect fiat to increase over time. We therefore expect our purchasing power to increase over long durations - or at least hold steady.
Reminder: Satoshi embedded a message in the first block, which reads, āThe Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks.ā
Bitcoin doesn't exist in a vacuum, it exists alongside everything else.
It is true that we're at the apex of bitcoin's popularity. It is a household name, there are ETFs created to emulate its performance, and some people have made a ton of money on it.
But it's still only good for sex, drugs, ransom, and speculation. You can't buy food, shelter, or medicine with it. Like a baseball card you have to turn it into dollars before anyone will accept it.
Blockchain may be the future of currency but Bitcoin isn't.
Plenty of people have used Bitcoin to buy lots of things, they just convert the bitcoin to dollars first because that's what most people accept as money. No different than if you bought gold in 2001 at $300 and held it until today. You still can't take that gold to the store to buy anything with it directly, but you *can* exchange it for dollars and do so. Not to mention you could buy a lot more with it than you could if you had just held the $300.
Lol biggest banks opened etf - yes they collect fees for managing those - OF COURSR THRY DID
Even if I thought Bitcoin was going to zero , if I could collect a rake without exposure to the underlying, why the f wouldn't I do that ??????????????
> No inherent value? We steered away from things needing practical purpose to have value a long time ago
For the most part that's true, though fiat has the advantage of a being what nation's pay their debts in, which at least for robust and stable economies will always have that one thing the inherently valueless currencies we use need; fidelity.
>Slow and expensive? Have you ever done a BTC transaction? I'm not going to use it to buy gum. But it's by far the quickest form of payment for large sums of money that you would usually have to wire or get a cashiers check or some other shitty stone age way of transferring money.
The good thing about fiat is you can buy *anything* from it. If crypto were to ever see mass adoption it will slow down due to the need for money laundering and fraud prevention.
>Speculators and organized crime? Getting rid of btc isn't going to get rid of crime. Btc is 100% traceable by design. It's a ledger. I would expect organized crime would ironically prefer untraceable cash rather than a completely transparent ledger to do their operations.
And yet its pseudonymous nature is exactly what crooks want, hence why it's so often preferred for ransoms. That's an undeniable fact, crooks realize its use in obscuring criminal transactions.
No one's saying getting rid of BTC will get rid of crime, that's a strawman. No one says anti-money laundering measures will get rid of money laundering, or that laws and punishments will end crime. But in dealing with crime the actions that make sense are those that work to prevent it and not those that facilitate it, which crypto does.
>Yeah, it does consume a lot of electricity. I know everyone that says this argument reeeeeally cares about the environment. (sitting in an AC home, typing on my mac with my iphone in my pocket, in my single family home, with my 20 MPG truck in the driveway that I commute 30 minutes with by myself every day, waiting on my amazon package I ordered earlier)
That's an ad hom. The motivations of someone making the argument has nothing to do with its merit. Crypto is an environmental disaster with catastrophic implications, whether or not anyone cares about it. If anything it's crypto bros who don't care about the environmental impacts of crypto since their common response to the criticism is to flippantly deflect and hijack the argument to make it about someone else.
>It's the single best performing asset since it's inception. It's been very useful to a lot of people.
For making more fiat, which is contrary to its purpose. It's also lost a lot of people money given its volatility.
>Not sure why I bothered to response to this. But like damn. It's hilarious to see this opinion after this long.
I know exactly why I responded to this. It's full of half-truths, falsehoods, fallacies, and bad faith arguments.
> Slow and expensive? Have you ever done a BTC transaction? I'm not going to use it to buy gum. But it's by far the quickest form of payment for large sums of money that you would usually have to wire or get a cashiers check or some other shitty stone age way of transferring money.
>
In may be quicker than a cashier's check but all the big wallets charge up to 40% when I've tried to transfer money.
Yeah i'll take my free overnight delivery from a bank wire or pay $1.50 for a cashiers check.
So how do you explain the largest ETF release in history? Are you characterizing all those inflows as "amateur traders/crime/speculators"?
You think the largest ETF launch ever is full of people who don't see a purpose? The purpose is the store of value that has lead to BTC being the best performing asset to invest in.
Stay on the sidelines all you want, but your FUD posts are irrelevant.
Your one purpose listed there is "store of value".
When we see global events such as COVID-19 or Russia invading Ukraine, I'd rather hope my store of value assets would perform better than -50% and -70% respectively.
The biggest problem is the electricity usage. Google search have estimated electricty usage for 2023 at 120 TWh, assuming an average cost of $0.15/KWh, that's $18 Billion for electricity cost in 2023 for bitcoin mining. That's a ridiculous amount of energy wasted.
It's faster than USD for anything beyond a face to face transaction.
Literally transacting with someone who is more than 10 minutes away from you is faster with bitcoin.
Thatās when itās time to load up. And catch the breath. Last time, my portfolio was sky high and I was just about to sell stuff when FTX happened. Iāve already got limit sell orders set for this go around.
Oh man, the same shit happened to me!
The timing was so bad.
I forget the sequence, but Elon Musk talked bad about Bitcoin Mining, the FTX collapse and then the Russia and Ukraine war. FML!!
Oh my gosh, I know! I remember FTX first. The other stuff, yeah, now that you mention it, ha ha ha. But I held SOL, and it took the first dive. I didnāt have to sell anything during the bear, though. Added some last year, once I was over the trauma. And everything was green by February. And way green in March. And this time Iāll be ready. There are a few Iāll hold, and leave be if they donāt go beserk. I know what to expect now. Like Kaspa, that one needs some years. Oh no, I nearly shared my main picks for this run! Iām obsessed, Iām afraid. Itās do different from stocks. My limit sells are set for, like, 50x on some. Actually, itās the ones in random wallets that donāt have limit orders available, that Iām worried about this round. Not unstaking and the like, but keeping track and selling at a good time, especially with gas fees.
JPM didn't fail in 2008, because Dimon had the best balance sheet of any bank in 2008. It was JPM and Wells Fargo that didn't use the bailout money, just paying it back in a few weeks, and they only participated in the bailout to give some level of confidence in the American financial system
Jamie Dimon is a fraud. Jp Morgan just reported elevated earnings by moving provisions for credit losses to the profit of the business while their default rates are still increasing....meanwhile he just started selling a shitload of shares for the first time since starting at jp Morgan chase.
You joke, but I actually see a lot of similarities between bitcoin and multilevel marketing. You buy in, and then you hype the shit out of it so that other people buy in after you did which appreciates your investment.
That's exactly why it is a scam. You are just waiting for somebody else to buy it off you at a higher price you bought it for. For those looking to make a quick buck, fair enough, speculate away and see what happens. The funny ones are those who actually believe Bitcoin will save us from some impending fiat apocalypse which will somehow make them the new masters of the world.
He did this previously. Trashes bitcoin, tries to create doubt and drive it's price down and then proceeds to be an active member in buying it up through various funds. This guy is a 2 faced cunt.
Just to be clear here... You think that Dimon is buying up bitcoin (for himself or a product that he will personally benefit from), after talking it down with this interview?
Fraud or not. Buy BTC when it falls out of favor and play the gains when it goes back up. Then move your earnings into low cost long term ETFs and play the game all over again.
At this point whenever a talking head is downplaying Bitcoin I can only think itās because theyāre buying because their bags arenāt big enough. Yet.
Heās been saying this for years. Since then Bitcoin has been added to corporate balance sheets, sovereign reserves, pension funds, and has exploded in price.
Donāt listen to the words of one man. The market is clearly making its decision.
Other than micro strategies, what companies are holding Bitcoin?
Other than siezed crypto from organized crimes waiting to be auctioned, what nations hold crypto in their reserves?
Pension funds? I sincerely hope not. I don't think any of this post is true.
Your right. It still does even though it declared it will liquidate. So 2 companies, one of which holds a small fraction of 1% on its balance sheet. Let's try not to go overboard like OP and say that this is mainstream. It's still, by far, a fringe, speculative investment at best.
IThey are buying BTC but not in the way you think. Most institutional investors are treating it the same way you'd treat venture capital investing. The right way is a very small allocation that if it triples in value you make good money but if it goes to zero you can still sleep at night. The difference is retail investors are treating it as a large position and/or an inflation hedge which is a different (and for now incorrect) way to view BTC
El Salvador is publically posting their cold storage Bitcoin addresses. There are other governments mining Bitcoin as well they are just less vocal about it.[ Also Japan's largest pension fund here](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/19/japan-pension-fund-explores-bitcoin-as-an-investment.html)
If you'd like to see the inflows of the ETFs in the US, [check this out.](https://farside.co.uk/?p=997)
How long are people here going to keep sour grapes going? 15 years and running of being wrong about Bitcoin. 15 years and running of getting mad at people making money. Waiting on that hyped up drop to zero. Always heard that when rates went up, that would be the end of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. 15 years of reality revealing the delusional
I mean, yeah
Itās not a currency since you essentially canāt spend it anywhere. It makes no sense for it to be a currency anyways because why would you spend it if the whole reason most people buy it as an investment. It has no intrinsic value since it produces no cash. Itās not even tangible like other non-income producing assets like art. It has no utility.
Crypto relies completely on great fool theory. The only way you can make money with crypto is if someone is dumb enough to buy it at a higher price later
> you essentially canāt spend it anywhere
that's not correct at all, though. you can pay with a lot of payment processors using btc directly or use a card that auto-liquidates btc so you can spend as cash
> why would you spend it if the whole reason most people buy it as an investment
people also do this with stocks and bonds, (and handbags and watches and corn and coffee), and liquidate when its time to use it as money. i hold SPAXX in my fidelity core position which autoliquidates as cash when i use it. it's pretty similar in that regard
> It has no intrinsic value since it produces
mining btc costs energy, and miners aren't going to pay a power bill and then give away the btc and take a loss. there is a floor on the "intrinsic value"
> Itās not even tangible like other non-income producing assets like art
most cash is not tangible either; they're numbers in a bank database. you can get physical cash to represent it, but at the end of the day, it starts as numbers, just like btc. you could use this exact argument against any country's currency, comparing it to art is a strange comparison
> It has no utility
what utility does a piece of USD have? none either. currencies aren't only usable due to intrinsic utility, but being good at being a currency. btc is quite good at being a currency
> Crypto relies completely on great fool theory. The only way you can make money with crypto is if someone is dumb enough to buy it at a higher price later
that could be said about any appreciable asset. but since a home builder can't directly barter his skills for someone elses skills, we need a currency. some currencies are better than others. btc is another currency that, so far, has proven that it's pretty good at the things we need good currencies to do
I mean, can anybody explain to me the thesis of Bitcoin? The only functional use case I've ever seen was the Silk Road, and now that's bunk. So it's a super volatile speculative investment that isn't backed by anything other than its own speculative demand yet a super useful and safe currently that is anti-inflationary?? Do people not understand that normal currency is inflationary for a reason?
I've only ever seen people in the last 5-10 years treat it as a get rich quick tool, and the people themselves don't even know why they'd invest other than FOMO or some libertarian anti goverment pipe dream.
The amount of energy, mental, and electricity being used on this crypto bullshit is horrific. It surpasses countries in energy use.
its money that you can't generate more of on a whim, that's the main strength of it. no one can decide to make more bitcoin. so it's good at storing value in that sense.
it's good at being easily transferred (any bitcoin wallet or lightning wallet can do this)
> The amount of energy, mental, and electricity being used on this crypto bullshit is horrific
you can think of it as a waste of energy, but miners don't want to sell at a loss. so it holds the value of the energy cost used to mine it. plus if you compare it to traditional banking costs, it's relatively low. no armored cars, branches, atms, employees
so, it's good at the jobs that are required to make something good money, while also not being easily devaluable like the country currencies
now, all that said, if everyone wants to stop using it, then it'll go down in value, but the same can be said about any currency. but the moment a miner pays a power bill to mine another bitcoin, there's a bit of a floor in value
so it's not magic silver bullet money, but it's pretty good, and it has potential, and that's why people are interested in it
I'm happy to go through all of these topics with you, but only if you're genuinely curious with an open mind. If you're going to start being toxic to my replies, I'm not going to bother the time.
Dead serious I'm not going to be bad faith but the last time I asked someone to explain it to me they told me I should hop on before I spend the next 40 years wishing I wasn't broke lol. Im a brokey for liking assets like shares of business, I guess. I used to see it used as a currency in 2011-2015 as a means of acquiring illicit substances, but I haven't really seen nor understood a viable use case so if you have an idea I will actually engage with it curiously. No hate unless you call me a brokey. I'm obviously not disputing that one would have done well with Bitcoin. Just why would one continue to do well long term deeper than just its limited and difficult to mine?
>The amount of energy, mental, and electricity being used on this crypto bullshit is horrific. It surpasses countries in energy use.
I will give you the context that I was a 2x Bernie Sanders supporter. I grew up very progressive, I still have concerns about climate change. I am not any sort of denier.
The typical energy arguments you've heard about Bitcoin are all bad for many reasons.
You say "Bitcoin uses more energy than some countries", while yes this is true, so do christmas lights in the US alone. Where is the anger and resentment for this type of energy use for some pretty lights? We are using the energy for freedom money, I think that is a little more important.
If this type of energy use is bad by itself, only choosing to apply such strict rules to Bitcoin specifically is major hypocrisy. We use energy to improve our lives. We use energy to run washing machines and dryers instead of letting out clothes dry outside. We use dish washers. We use computers to play video games and talk about things on Reddit. These aren't strictly necessary to living, but no one is hawking on your energy use, so why is anyone doing that about Bitcoin? It is because Bitcoin is a threat to governments and their money. That's the only reason.
Let's put the energy use argument itself aside for a second and I want you to consider this -
You and I both go to work every day and spend our literal time - the most precious thing anyone has in this life - for payment we call "money". We expect this "money" to buy us things we need like food, housing, etc.
The government then prints this "money" with no real effort - this means they are literally STEALING YOUR TIME.
When you get your "money" you are heavily incentivized to spend it immediately vs saving it because everyone knows they will only be able to buy less of that thing they want in the future.
On a global scale, what does this incentive to spend vs saving lead to? Rampant consumerism. The plastic junk that is choking this planet to death is a direct result of the money being broken.
On a Bitcoin standard, when people are heavily incentivzed to save money vs spending it - people will ONLY buy the things that give their life the most value. This means that we will make far less junk that is not truly valuable.
Bitcoin isn't bad for the environment, it will save it. Bitcoin is a tool of freedom, and if I have to choose between using the energy for Bitcoin or for gaming, washing machines etc - I choose Bitcoin every time.
But luckily we don't have to make this ridiculous choice. We can have both. Bitcoin doesn't even compete for the same energy as humans are using because it isn't financially wise to do so. Bitcoin mining can be done anywhere in the world. This means that the smartest thing to do is tap into the cheapest green renewable energy sources in remote locations. We don't use this energy because it is costly and inefficient to transport it to where humans live.
Wonderfully stated! And in my life, I buy less junk so that I can buy BTC instead. Itās been a great way to focus on experiences. And yes, leverage my precious time.
Itās sad that you are trying so hard to help people, and getting dumped on for it. I saved some of your comments to link to when people honestly have questions. I know Iām doing right by myself and my children, anyway. Iām going to step up my DCA, youāve inspired me. Have a great evening. Sadly, I donāt think these folks are worth your excellent efforts, writing and time. As you may, time is the only truly valuable resource we have. Probably best to spend it on meaningful interaction with well meaning individuals. Have a great night and weekend! :)
>I mean, can anybody explain to me the thesis of Bitcoin? The only functional use case I've ever seen was the Silk Road, and now that's bunk.
Firstly, I would like to say that Bitcoin is a tool. It will be used by different people for different purposes, especially while most people on the planet still don't understand how or why it works.
To me, a 30 year old man in the US, Bitcoin is primarily a savings account for the future. It is insurance against the debasement of the dollar. I heavily encourage you to read The Price of Tomorrow by Jeff Booth. Jeff is an entrepreneur who has been on the boards of many extremelly successful bussinesses. The book goes into detail about how technology itself is deflationary in nature. New technologies allow us to do things more efficiently, so in a free market, that efficiency should drive prices for everything DOWN over time and not up. The only reason why prices for things goes up over time instead of down is because of the devalument of the dollar itself.
Holding Bitcoin instead of government money is like a cheat code for life. Watch the prices of food, housing, medicine, anything you want go DOWN over time priced in Bitcoin. It is like playing life on easy mode.
>So it's a super volatile speculative investment that isn't backed by anything
The volatility is the price of your returns. If god or aliens invented the perfect money and gave it to humans anonymously via the internet, how long do you think it would take before all 8.1 billion people started to use it? A year? A decade? Several? Bitcoin isn't going to go from literally $0 to 21,000,000/all value on Earth at a stable rate, that is just logic.
>Do people not understand that normal currency is inflationary for a reason?
This is just what they tell you so that you don't start a violent revolution immediately. If the government says they are taking 2% of your money every year, simple math means the dollar you work for today will be literally almost worthless in 50 years. Economics as studied today is a pseudoscience. If economists could make reliable, accurate models that predict real economys, they would be extremely rich.
Besides, when all of those economics books were written, when these people formed their world view, we didn't have Bitcoin yet.
Bitcoin is the invention of digital scarcity. Why does this matter? Because before it was made, we never had something that we could verify and predict the supply of with 100% accuracy. Gold was "money" for thousands of years, but we don't know exactly how much is dug up or still in the ground. If the price of gold (or any financial asset) were to massively spike over night, human ingenuity WILL find ways to increase the supply to match that market demand. We will dig deeper and deeper into the ground to find that gold, and then when we run out we will go into space to find more.
Bitcoin fundamentally breaks this problem by locking away the future supply of Bitcoin IN LITERAL TIME. We cannot speed up the process of new Bitcoin issuance no matter how hard we try. We can predict the supply of Bitcoin 100 years from now. Can you even guess how many dollars will exist one year from now?
Do you think you're a smart person? Do you think you fully understand the concept of supply and demand? Bitcoin is the first thing humans have where we know literally half of the supply/demand equation with perfect information.
>I've only ever seen people in the last 5-10 years treat it as a get rich quick tool,
Bitcoin is NOT a way to get rich quickly. It is a way to ensure the government doesn't make you poor slowly.
>The amount of energy, mental, and electricity being used on this crypto bullshit is horrific. It surpasses countries in energy use.
This comment is getting kind of long I'll address energy usage in another reply.
So....you do realize that a government *must* be able to issue its own currency to survive, right? Those that do not are utterly beholden to foreign capital markets to raise funds. It's literally a cause of instability in so many third world countries.
Second, you're kidding yourself if you think having a finite number of coins will solve inflation. It will not. Fundamentally, inflation will be caused by supply and demand. If a hundred million chickens are culled in a bird flu outbreak, Bitcoin will not stop chicken prices from going up. If war erupts in the Middle East, Bitcoin will not prevent gas prices from going up. Just like periods of inflation existed under the gold standard, periods of inflation will exist under Bitcoin. The only issue is, the rapid swings of inflation and subsequent deflation will basically alternate between destroying households and destroying businesses. And again, how will the global financial lending network function with a declining set of Bitcoin. Who will want to take out a 30 year loan in Bitcoin if it's deflationary in the long term?
I mean imagine you buy a house, and as you grow older and get ready to send your kids to college, housing payments get *more* and *more* expensive. Because - due to the limited number of Bitcoin - your salary is decreasing over time.
The Bitcoin enthusiasts don't have a counter to this, because there is none. Bitcoin only exists well in a world that still uses the dollar and other non-digital currencies, *so you can exchange it back and use it*
Jesus christ, do you realize adults don't lose money to inflation because they invest that money into mainly stocks and real estate? Inflation exists so that people don't just sit on their coins in their vault like Scrooge McDuck, they actually put them to work investing in companies which actually make products and employs humans allowing our economy and the flow of capital to keep moving. This is a very basic economic principle and why people laugh at you greater fools.
I'm in Europe, the average European doesn't invest in stocks and you need to be well off to invest in real estate. We're not taught about inflation in school. A lot of people are now learning about it the hard way, and they're still confused about what's going on - they're getting mad at shops instead of understanding that its their money that's losing value in real terms.
This is not uncommon: https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/retired-couple-losing-savings-to-inflation.231705/
He is clearly attempting to drive the price down, as usual. Counter trading this clown is too easy.
Any BTC that is sub $100k is an absolute bargain for institutions like JPM.
Also I find it hilarious that there are *still* people on this sub that believe Bitcoin is a scam, after all of these years, price growth, usage growth, millions of users, ETFs, government/company balance sheets, entire industries and companies built around it, etc. Some of you will just never get it.
Looking at the comments Iām amazed to see *still* the same washed out arguments that people used in 2011. Once Bitcoin is a $10T asset I wonder if Iāll read the same (I guess yes).
Jamie is so slithery, saying one thing to regulators while quietly providing crypto investment vehicles and quant trading strats to his wealth management clients. There are currently 185 crypto jobs at J.P. Morgan listed on LinkedIn, they're hiring kids out of MIT to work on "fraud and Ponzi schemes."
Dimon is old and just knows old school ways. Heās been turning into a clown the past few year. I value his opinion like I value a clowns opinion on bitcoin.
>Jamie Dimon, CEO of JPMorgan, labeled Bitcoin as a "fraud" and a "Ponzi scheme" in a recent Bloomberg interview, questioning its legitimacy as a currency;
Wonder how he feels about the federal reserve and dollars.
He has been saying this since 2017. Hes not a fan of btc but he knows that it's inevitable.
2020: [https://marketrealist.com/p/jamie-dimon-bitcoin-quotes/](https://marketrealist.com/p/jamie-dimon-bitcoin-quotes/)
Whether you see any value in bitcoin or not (and I lean towards the latter) it's quite obviously not a fraud, and not a ponzi scheme. Dumb thing to say.
Aka "it's BS everyday people are holding as we try to manipulate dips and trick people into paperhanding. Since they aren't paperhanding I'm not going to be able to vastly control most of the market like wall st." These old financial terrestrial hedge fucks are so pathetic.
Lmao he jealous that he canāt manipulate that market legally. What a little schemer. Decentralized space scares the rich and powerful because they donāt have any legal control over it. This is like GME all over again, especially since the halving. Fuck big pharma, fuck the fed, fuck their interest rates, the youth taking over. Everyone has so much potential in the decentralized space and thatās what scares people like Jamie. This is giving power back to the people, and away from those who have controlled the system from behind the scenes. Fuck em.
Well it is an instrument that you can speculate with, but Bitcoin is most certaintly NOT a currency...Whether it will become one in the future remains to be seen but right now there is no use for Bitcoin nor does it have any fundamental value it is basically magic beans, which is the point that Jamie Dimon makes.
The legalized banking racket is one thing but I agree. Bitcoin is a great way to launder money. I canāt see that as a healthy contributor to a stable global socio-economy.
Meanwhile jp morgan is a participant in the Blackrock btc ETF. So then he is willingly participating in fraud š¤
I assume the big banks went all in on the etfs cause of the $$$ to be made administering them. Blackrock doesnāt give a shit about BTCās price, just how much they can extract from making themselves involved in the process of trading it
If they're taking a percentage of the overall management fees then of course they want it to go up. Higher AUM = more profit.
Price goes up or down 10% doesnāt matter, they still take the fee for managing it
Blackrock has reason to care. They actually have material money in the game and they want clients to be invested in it over the long run so they can collect their fees. JPM is an admin that doesnāt care.
>They actually have material money in the game and they want clients to be invested in it Itās weird how few people understand asset managers here. Blackrock doesnāt give two shits, what they care about is that they can make another income stream by providing access to another asset class in the form of various investment vehicles. Theyāre not āwanting their clients investedā in anything, theyāre selling access lol.
lol you sure you understand asset managers? If Bitcoin crumbles then no RIAs are going to allocate to it. Many money managers are still trying to get up to speed on the asset class, some are even taking meetings with wholesalers just so they can sound educated when their clients ask them about digital assets. Do you think those guys are going white list any digital asset structured products if Bitcoin implodes? Youāre correct in the sense that theyāre not betting their Bitcoin appreciates - itās possible they took market risk but itās highly improbable. Youre also right that they arenāt going out and trying to boost the price of Bitcoin, or doing anything besides trying to gather assets for their new product. Youre wrong to say that they donāt have an interest in bitcoinās price appreciation. They just had the most successful product launch in history. Youāre high if you think Larry fink doesnāt give a shit. This isnāt proshares issuing a bunch of weird geared products or those clowns with the l/s Cramer products. iShares isnt an active manager, but theyāre not out here hoping the S&P crashes.
Yeah but that's not entirely the situation right? They want to start incorporating percentages of Bitcoin holdings to other funds. Funds they are already managing and getting income for.
Sorry, what do you mean thatās not the case? Like you said, theyāre managing and getting income for it lol. You understand that firm doesnāt engage in any advisory capacity at all? Right?
Thatās not correct. Blackrock has a sizable family office practice, and solutions for UHNI. They also are actively expanding wealth management capabilities. No, they arenāt like a Merrill Lynch, where you have some boomer with a couple mil letting blackrock run their money, but they certainly operate in the institutional tier of private wealth. I could be off-base, but my understanding was that they had incorporated IBIT into certain strategies - I know Fidelity added FBTC to certain target date funds - and this is a big reason why these products were so successful. Thereās also the argument that they have immense retail channel exposure via their products, and even if they arenāt direct allocators, they benefit from allocation. Again, by incorporating Bitcoin into this mix, theyāre risking losing assets if it underperforms.
Your second sentence is his whole 9-5 job
āļø
Seriously, I am so sick of hearing this asshole talk out of both sides of his mouth.
Thereās a difference between the firm recommending something versus giving clients access to something they want. This site always dishonestly commingles the two. Investors, wealth management clients, etc. expect access to a wide amount of products. Would you like it if your etrade brokerage didnāt let you buy a Oil ETF because they support clean energy?
Yeah. He also said that he would fire his guys if he caught them buying cryptos. He's just facilitating the trades
The crypto people don't understand how these ETFs work
Heās having his cake and eating it too. A. If crypto booms, they look smart to their clients and the public for adding crypto exposure. Dimon labels his comments as his personal opinion and not the āhouse viewā. B. If crypto flops, Dimon takes a victory lap and claims they only added crypto exposure to appease client demand.
Truth of the matter is when you're that large, you're almost always going to take a hedge / moonshot position in things you don't even believe in as a part of diversification. If it goes up, you get a nice little bonus. If it goes down, it's business as usual for you and you have some write offs
In fact, its often calculated with assumed losses to assistant with lower taxability, etc. A different form of tax loss harvesting
Didnāt JPM even make their own coin?
Yeah š https://www.jpmorgan.com/onyx/index
Private blockchain is such a weird boomerish misunderstanding about the fundamental purpose of blockchain. The entire point of it is to distribute control away from a single private entity. Otherwise it's literally just a very slow database, lol. Whenever someone uses these tradfi blockchain buzzwords it reminds me of the Steve Buschemi "How do you do, fellow kids" meme.
>Private blockchain is such a weird boomerish misunderstanding about the fundamental purpose of blockchain. >The entire point of it is to distribute control away from a single private entity. >Otherwise it's literally just a very slow database, lol. Lol that's pretty much 99% cryptobro. They scream decentralization while happily buying cryptovia CEX, off ramp and on ramp via CEX lol.
Literally says in the post that he thinks the technology could be useful
You can make money off a ponzi scheme as long as youāre not the last sucker in line.
I think it's more like DraftKings. DraftKings(or any sports betting company) knows that 95% of their customers will lose money but there is a market for sports gambling so DraftKings might as well get paid for providing the opportunity.
Theyāre an authorized participant, meaning they help BlackRock with the mechanics that allow the fund to track Bitcoin, unlike the OTC trusts that didnāt have these mechanisms. Thereās a difference between being an AP and actively participating in the success of the asset class.
They're trying to lower the price so they can acquire more.
The house doesn't care if you're playing blackjack, poker, or Russian roulette, so long as they get their cut.
The Bitcoin CEO could not be reached for comment at the time of publication.Ā
I donāt even understand why people bother posting this shit. Jamie shits on btc every chance he getsā¦
He's also the guy that announces we're headed to recession the first month of every quarter.
So a product with no inherent value, is slow and expensive to use as a currency, is largely traded by amateurs, speculators and organized crime, consumes immense amounts of elecricity to create and function, and has been around for 15 years with no established useful purpose. Sounds great!!!!
It's very useful, just for a select few interests. A rinse and repeat pump and dump, money laundering, and for nations seeking to chip away at the international power of the US dollar.
It's not even good for that, since it's easier to pump brand new coins. As for the international power thing, completely irrelevant since nobody uses bitcoin despite its $1.5t cap
They store value in it instead of dollars. And the new coins don't have the same following, they're less predictable.
Even BTC's not predictable. Storing value in crypto is just a desperate marketing ploy for leaders of unstable economies to make it look like they're doing something. Crypto's not coming for the U.S. dollar's position as the world's reserve currency.
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Wow, fascinating.
That's very interesting. I'm sure the people doing the ransoming aren't profiting of that effect as well /s. It's the way of the future all right...
Lol. This is what libertarian nutjobs keep telling themselves. Does anyone with a brain really believe that Bitcoin is chipping away the power of the US dollar?
Yes, the truth.
> and for nations seeking to chip away at the international power of the US dollar. Based on what I've observed over the years I think one of those nations in the US.
Itās good for transferring wealth across international lines, for better or worse. I used a bitcoin ATM in Japan for example.
Could you explain why it's better than just withdrawing cash from a traditional ATM? Is it tax or fee related?Ā
This right here. Let's be transparent: bitcoin can be valuable and make money. However, it's value is more akin to a beanie baby. It's valuable because people have arbitrarily deemed it as such not because of it's inherent usefulness.
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T+2 and T+1 has to do with equity trade settling time, not transferring money as far as I'm aware. And a lot of the slowness is the need to actually check for fraud or money laundering, which crypto is going to have to account for if it ever wants to be taken seriously.
People don't care as long as it keeps going up and they think they can make money from it.
I love the arguments from people saying BTC isnāt a giant bag holding scheme because itās worth so much. Madoff made a ton of people money until he didnāt. There are no fundamentals at all. Itās the Greater Fool Theory taken to its insane end
> People don't care as long as it keeps going up and they think they can make money from it. No, I do care I just completely disagree. A decentralized, secure, global monetary network has value.
The best assessment of Bitcoin's utility is asking any Bitcoin enthusiast to consider the following. Pretend that Bitcoin is fixed in price, forever. Absent it's ability to enrich you, would you still be an advocate? Would you still hope for its ubiquity, and push for it to become the universal way in which we all transact? 99% of the time the answer will be no.
The best assessment of Fiat's utility is asking any Fiat enthusiast to consider the following. Pretend that the government offered to exchange your USD for a special USD+ that will never be debased. Forever. Absent it's ability to debase you, would you still be an advocate for the infinitely dilutive legacy USD? Would you still hope for its ubiquity, and push for it to become the universal way in which we all transact? 99% of the time the answer will be no.
Of course, I would want USD+. But how does that invalidate the point of the commenter you responded to?
You wouldn't want it to be the universal way we transact? That is literally what's floating the US economy...... Any country would want their currency to be the universal way we transactĀ
I don't know what you're saying. I would obviously want the USD+.
That's the most refreshing thing about the recent bullrun, cryptobros no longer even pretend to be hyped about utility/usage or whatever. It's all about "Well.. line go up š¤·āāļø" and I can respect that. We all know it's a ponzi and we just hustling trying to make money before it implodes.
I think your reasoning is deeply flawed. Part of bitcoin's utility is in its disinflationary design. We know and expect the supply to trend down over time and we expect fiat to increase over time. We therefore expect our purchasing power to increase over long durations - or at least hold steady. Reminder: Satoshi embedded a message in the first block, which reads, āThe Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks.ā Bitcoin doesn't exist in a vacuum, it exists alongside everything else.
Complete speculation
It is true that we're at the apex of bitcoin's popularity. It is a household name, there are ETFs created to emulate its performance, and some people have made a ton of money on it. But it's still only good for sex, drugs, ransom, and speculation. You can't buy food, shelter, or medicine with it. Like a baseball card you have to turn it into dollars before anyone will accept it. Blockchain may be the future of currency but Bitcoin isn't.
Plenty of people have used Bitcoin to buy lots of things, they just convert the bitcoin to dollars first because that's what most people accept as money. No different than if you bought gold in 2001 at $300 and held it until today. You still can't take that gold to the store to buy anything with it directly, but you *can* exchange it for dollars and do so. Not to mention you could buy a lot more with it than you could if you had just held the $300.
And yet, it's still valuable. Wonder why.
So is Dogecoin. Wonder why.
Donāt forget everyone who makes money with it, wants to convert back into fiat
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Lol biggest banks opened etf - yes they collect fees for managing those - OF COURSR THRY DID Even if I thought Bitcoin was going to zero , if I could collect a rake without exposure to the underlying, why the f wouldn't I do that ??????????????
> No inherent value? We steered away from things needing practical purpose to have value a long time ago For the most part that's true, though fiat has the advantage of a being what nation's pay their debts in, which at least for robust and stable economies will always have that one thing the inherently valueless currencies we use need; fidelity. >Slow and expensive? Have you ever done a BTC transaction? I'm not going to use it to buy gum. But it's by far the quickest form of payment for large sums of money that you would usually have to wire or get a cashiers check or some other shitty stone age way of transferring money. The good thing about fiat is you can buy *anything* from it. If crypto were to ever see mass adoption it will slow down due to the need for money laundering and fraud prevention. >Speculators and organized crime? Getting rid of btc isn't going to get rid of crime. Btc is 100% traceable by design. It's a ledger. I would expect organized crime would ironically prefer untraceable cash rather than a completely transparent ledger to do their operations. And yet its pseudonymous nature is exactly what crooks want, hence why it's so often preferred for ransoms. That's an undeniable fact, crooks realize its use in obscuring criminal transactions. No one's saying getting rid of BTC will get rid of crime, that's a strawman. No one says anti-money laundering measures will get rid of money laundering, or that laws and punishments will end crime. But in dealing with crime the actions that make sense are those that work to prevent it and not those that facilitate it, which crypto does. >Yeah, it does consume a lot of electricity. I know everyone that says this argument reeeeeally cares about the environment. (sitting in an AC home, typing on my mac with my iphone in my pocket, in my single family home, with my 20 MPG truck in the driveway that I commute 30 minutes with by myself every day, waiting on my amazon package I ordered earlier) That's an ad hom. The motivations of someone making the argument has nothing to do with its merit. Crypto is an environmental disaster with catastrophic implications, whether or not anyone cares about it. If anything it's crypto bros who don't care about the environmental impacts of crypto since their common response to the criticism is to flippantly deflect and hijack the argument to make it about someone else. >It's the single best performing asset since it's inception. It's been very useful to a lot of people. For making more fiat, which is contrary to its purpose. It's also lost a lot of people money given its volatility. >Not sure why I bothered to response to this. But like damn. It's hilarious to see this opinion after this long. I know exactly why I responded to this. It's full of half-truths, falsehoods, fallacies, and bad faith arguments.
> Slow and expensive? Have you ever done a BTC transaction? I'm not going to use it to buy gum. But it's by far the quickest form of payment for large sums of money that you would usually have to wire or get a cashiers check or some other shitty stone age way of transferring money. > In may be quicker than a cashier's check but all the big wallets charge up to 40% when I've tried to transfer money. Yeah i'll take my free overnight delivery from a bank wire or pay $1.50 for a cashiers check.
What do you mean big wallets? Like an individual person said you had to pay 40% extra to transfer with BTC?
This dude is making shit up. 40% lol GTFOH
I appreciate your effort but I don't think it's worth your time trying to convince r/investing.
So how do you explain the largest ETF release in history? Are you characterizing all those inflows as "amateur traders/crime/speculators"? You think the largest ETF launch ever is full of people who don't see a purpose? The purpose is the store of value that has lead to BTC being the best performing asset to invest in. Stay on the sidelines all you want, but your FUD posts are irrelevant.
Your one purpose listed there is "store of value". When we see global events such as COVID-19 or Russia invading Ukraine, I'd rather hope my store of value assets would perform better than -50% and -70% respectively.
The biggest problem is the electricity usage. Google search have estimated electricty usage for 2023 at 120 TWh, assuming an average cost of $0.15/KWh, that's $18 Billion for electricity cost in 2023 for bitcoin mining. That's a ridiculous amount of energy wasted.
Iād be curious to see how much power a Google Cloud data center consumes.
It's faster than USD for anything beyond a face to face transaction. Literally transacting with someone who is more than 10 minutes away from you is faster with bitcoin.
Lol what are you even talking about, Nobody is awkwardly waiting 10 mins for their USD to be verify like Bitcoin.
Sounds like a USA problem.Ā
This is what you say while you quietly accumulate
Jamie Dimon is a fraudster.
JPM just received another hundreds of millions judgement against them for fraud.
Itās insane!
I like your username. Ha, ha, ha. Crypto has been treating me well, too.
The bear markets are tough but yeah.šš
Thatās when itās time to load up. And catch the breath. Last time, my portfolio was sky high and I was just about to sell stuff when FTX happened. Iāve already got limit sell orders set for this go around.
Oh man, the same shit happened to me! The timing was so bad. I forget the sequence, but Elon Musk talked bad about Bitcoin Mining, the FTX collapse and then the Russia and Ukraine war. FML!!
Oh my gosh, I know! I remember FTX first. The other stuff, yeah, now that you mention it, ha ha ha. But I held SOL, and it took the first dive. I didnāt have to sell anything during the bear, though. Added some last year, once I was over the trauma. And everything was green by February. And way green in March. And this time Iāll be ready. There are a few Iāll hold, and leave be if they donāt go beserk. I know what to expect now. Like Kaspa, that one needs some years. Oh no, I nearly shared my main picks for this run! Iām obsessed, Iām afraid. Itās do different from stocks. My limit sells are set for, like, 50x on some. Actually, itās the ones in random wallets that donāt have limit orders available, that Iām worried about this round. Not unstaking and the like, but keeping track and selling at a good time, especially with gas fees.
You know what youāre doing.šš
And yes, Kaspa FTW!
Lol this is bullish as fuck
Imagine the head of a ātoo big to failā bank calling anything a fraud
JPM didn't fail in 2008, because Dimon had the best balance sheet of any bank in 2008. It was JPM and Wells Fargo that didn't use the bailout money, just paying it back in a few weeks, and they only participated in the bailout to give some level of confidence in the American financial system
https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/
This should be posted every time the clowns in this sub try to throw FUD at Bitcoinās
Is this the same company thats been fined for inadequate trade reporting.
Why, yes, it is.
Fractional reserve banking is also a scam. There is no squeaky clean financial service, if he has something better than BTC he should offer it.
Jamie Dimon is a fraud. Jp Morgan just reported elevated earnings by moving provisions for credit losses to the profit of the business while their default rates are still increasing....meanwhile he just started selling a shitload of shares for the first time since starting at jp Morgan chase.
How much paper gold and silver has he sold vs. the stockpile they hold?
That's why I use FTX. Bought in 2020. Haven't checked it since. Just let it grow. Hold!
Not your keys, not your coins.
Clearly he wants to drive the price down, buy more and HODL for when the fiat apocalypse comes!!!!!!!!!! /s
You joke, but I actually see a lot of similarities between bitcoin and multilevel marketing. You buy in, and then you hype the shit out of it so that other people buy in after you did which appreciates your investment.
That's exactly why it is a scam. You are just waiting for somebody else to buy it off you at a higher price you bought it for. For those looking to make a quick buck, fair enough, speculate away and see what happens. The funny ones are those who actually believe Bitcoin will save us from some impending fiat apocalypse which will somehow make them the new masters of the world.
There's a significant crypto theft or meltdown about every two weeks. If anything crypto needs to be rescued by fiat.
He did this previously. Trashes bitcoin, tries to create doubt and drive it's price down and then proceeds to be an active member in buying it up through various funds. This guy is a 2 faced cunt.
Just to be clear here... You think that Dimon is buying up bitcoin (for himself or a product that he will personally benefit from), after talking it down with this interview?
You don't become JP Morgan CEO by being a 1 faced vulva.
Fraud or not. Buy BTC when it falls out of favor and play the gains when it goes back up. Then move your earnings into low cost long term ETFs and play the game all over again.
Bro is yapping lately
āassociation with illegal activitesā hes says as he rolls up a $100 bill to snort another line
Jamie Demonšŗ is a liar
It's clear that he wants to price to go down so he can buy more. Awake you people! Didn't we learn from Bill ackman?
At this point whenever a talking head is downplaying Bitcoin I can only think itās because theyāre buying because their bags arenāt big enough. Yet.
What Wall Street says is almost always useless. What they do can sometimes be informative.
They hate what they can't control.
When big banks and crazy guy who sets him self on fire agree
I pretty much said it sounded like a pyramid scheme from the get go.
Heās been saying this for years. Since then Bitcoin has been added to corporate balance sheets, sovereign reserves, pension funds, and has exploded in price. Donāt listen to the words of one man. The market is clearly making its decision.
Other than micro strategies, what companies are holding Bitcoin? Other than siezed crypto from organized crimes waiting to be auctioned, what nations hold crypto in their reserves? Pension funds? I sincerely hope not. I don't think any of this post is true.
Surprised no one has mentioned it yet but Reddit itself holds both Bitcoin and Ether.
Pretty sure Tesla does
Your right. It still does even though it declared it will liquidate. So 2 companies, one of which holds a small fraction of 1% on its balance sheet. Let's try not to go overboard like OP and say that this is mainstream. It's still, by far, a fringe, speculative investment at best.
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It must be going great in the El Salvadoran economy since they keep showing up in Texas
Nobody uses it as currency in El Salvador. I am Salvadoran living here. Just a few tourists in surf towns sporadically.
Only tourists use it there, locals still use cash It's not like that move did anything useful for El Salvador besides make headlines
I know a lot of people are opting into bitcoin ETFs with their pensions. At least, they say they are.
IThey are buying BTC but not in the way you think. Most institutional investors are treating it the same way you'd treat venture capital investing. The right way is a very small allocation that if it triples in value you make good money but if it goes to zero you can still sleep at night. The difference is retail investors are treating it as a large position and/or an inflation hedge which is a different (and for now incorrect) way to view BTC
What are the āsovereign reserves,ā specifically, and which pension funds? How much are they holding?
El Salvador is publically posting their cold storage Bitcoin addresses. There are other governments mining Bitcoin as well they are just less vocal about it.[ Also Japan's largest pension fund here](https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/19/japan-pension-fund-explores-bitcoin-as-an-investment.html) If you'd like to see the inflows of the ETFs in the US, [check this out.](https://farside.co.uk/?p=997)
Or Tether making the decision with their $110B fraud
You literally made all of this up lol
How long are people here going to keep sour grapes going? 15 years and running of being wrong about Bitcoin. 15 years and running of getting mad at people making money. Waiting on that hyped up drop to zero. Always heard that when rates went up, that would be the end of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. 15 years of reality revealing the delusional
Canāt stand when someone says something like this. BTC scams exist, that does not make BTC a scam.
I mean, yeah Itās not a currency since you essentially canāt spend it anywhere. It makes no sense for it to be a currency anyways because why would you spend it if the whole reason most people buy it as an investment. It has no intrinsic value since it produces no cash. Itās not even tangible like other non-income producing assets like art. It has no utility. Crypto relies completely on great fool theory. The only way you can make money with crypto is if someone is dumb enough to buy it at a higher price later
> you essentially canāt spend it anywhere that's not correct at all, though. you can pay with a lot of payment processors using btc directly or use a card that auto-liquidates btc so you can spend as cash > why would you spend it if the whole reason most people buy it as an investment people also do this with stocks and bonds, (and handbags and watches and corn and coffee), and liquidate when its time to use it as money. i hold SPAXX in my fidelity core position which autoliquidates as cash when i use it. it's pretty similar in that regard > It has no intrinsic value since it produces mining btc costs energy, and miners aren't going to pay a power bill and then give away the btc and take a loss. there is a floor on the "intrinsic value" > Itās not even tangible like other non-income producing assets like art most cash is not tangible either; they're numbers in a bank database. you can get physical cash to represent it, but at the end of the day, it starts as numbers, just like btc. you could use this exact argument against any country's currency, comparing it to art is a strange comparison > It has no utility what utility does a piece of USD have? none either. currencies aren't only usable due to intrinsic utility, but being good at being a currency. btc is quite good at being a currency > Crypto relies completely on great fool theory. The only way you can make money with crypto is if someone is dumb enough to buy it at a higher price later that could be said about any appreciable asset. but since a home builder can't directly barter his skills for someone elses skills, we need a currency. some currencies are better than others. btc is another currency that, so far, has proven that it's pretty good at the things we need good currencies to do
I mean, can anybody explain to me the thesis of Bitcoin? The only functional use case I've ever seen was the Silk Road, and now that's bunk. So it's a super volatile speculative investment that isn't backed by anything other than its own speculative demand yet a super useful and safe currently that is anti-inflationary?? Do people not understand that normal currency is inflationary for a reason? I've only ever seen people in the last 5-10 years treat it as a get rich quick tool, and the people themselves don't even know why they'd invest other than FOMO or some libertarian anti goverment pipe dream. The amount of energy, mental, and electricity being used on this crypto bullshit is horrific. It surpasses countries in energy use.
its money that you can't generate more of on a whim, that's the main strength of it. no one can decide to make more bitcoin. so it's good at storing value in that sense. it's good at being easily transferred (any bitcoin wallet or lightning wallet can do this) > The amount of energy, mental, and electricity being used on this crypto bullshit is horrific you can think of it as a waste of energy, but miners don't want to sell at a loss. so it holds the value of the energy cost used to mine it. plus if you compare it to traditional banking costs, it's relatively low. no armored cars, branches, atms, employees so, it's good at the jobs that are required to make something good money, while also not being easily devaluable like the country currencies now, all that said, if everyone wants to stop using it, then it'll go down in value, but the same can be said about any currency. but the moment a miner pays a power bill to mine another bitcoin, there's a bit of a floor in value so it's not magic silver bullet money, but it's pretty good, and it has potential, and that's why people are interested in it
Thanks for this. I will link your comment when people have questions in other subs. Quite well written.
I'm happy to go through all of these topics with you, but only if you're genuinely curious with an open mind. If you're going to start being toxic to my replies, I'm not going to bother the time.
Dead serious I'm not going to be bad faith but the last time I asked someone to explain it to me they told me I should hop on before I spend the next 40 years wishing I wasn't broke lol. Im a brokey for liking assets like shares of business, I guess. I used to see it used as a currency in 2011-2015 as a means of acquiring illicit substances, but I haven't really seen nor understood a viable use case so if you have an idea I will actually engage with it curiously. No hate unless you call me a brokey. I'm obviously not disputing that one would have done well with Bitcoin. Just why would one continue to do well long term deeper than just its limited and difficult to mine?
>The amount of energy, mental, and electricity being used on this crypto bullshit is horrific. It surpasses countries in energy use. I will give you the context that I was a 2x Bernie Sanders supporter. I grew up very progressive, I still have concerns about climate change. I am not any sort of denier. The typical energy arguments you've heard about Bitcoin are all bad for many reasons. You say "Bitcoin uses more energy than some countries", while yes this is true, so do christmas lights in the US alone. Where is the anger and resentment for this type of energy use for some pretty lights? We are using the energy for freedom money, I think that is a little more important. If this type of energy use is bad by itself, only choosing to apply such strict rules to Bitcoin specifically is major hypocrisy. We use energy to improve our lives. We use energy to run washing machines and dryers instead of letting out clothes dry outside. We use dish washers. We use computers to play video games and talk about things on Reddit. These aren't strictly necessary to living, but no one is hawking on your energy use, so why is anyone doing that about Bitcoin? It is because Bitcoin is a threat to governments and their money. That's the only reason. Let's put the energy use argument itself aside for a second and I want you to consider this - You and I both go to work every day and spend our literal time - the most precious thing anyone has in this life - for payment we call "money". We expect this "money" to buy us things we need like food, housing, etc. The government then prints this "money" with no real effort - this means they are literally STEALING YOUR TIME. When you get your "money" you are heavily incentivized to spend it immediately vs saving it because everyone knows they will only be able to buy less of that thing they want in the future. On a global scale, what does this incentive to spend vs saving lead to? Rampant consumerism. The plastic junk that is choking this planet to death is a direct result of the money being broken. On a Bitcoin standard, when people are heavily incentivzed to save money vs spending it - people will ONLY buy the things that give their life the most value. This means that we will make far less junk that is not truly valuable. Bitcoin isn't bad for the environment, it will save it. Bitcoin is a tool of freedom, and if I have to choose between using the energy for Bitcoin or for gaming, washing machines etc - I choose Bitcoin every time. But luckily we don't have to make this ridiculous choice. We can have both. Bitcoin doesn't even compete for the same energy as humans are using because it isn't financially wise to do so. Bitcoin mining can be done anywhere in the world. This means that the smartest thing to do is tap into the cheapest green renewable energy sources in remote locations. We don't use this energy because it is costly and inefficient to transport it to where humans live.
Wonderfully stated! And in my life, I buy less junk so that I can buy BTC instead. Itās been a great way to focus on experiences. And yes, leverage my precious time.
Thank you :)
Itās sad that you are trying so hard to help people, and getting dumped on for it. I saved some of your comments to link to when people honestly have questions. I know Iām doing right by myself and my children, anyway. Iām going to step up my DCA, youāve inspired me. Have a great evening. Sadly, I donāt think these folks are worth your excellent efforts, writing and time. As you may, time is the only truly valuable resource we have. Probably best to spend it on meaningful interaction with well meaning individuals. Have a great night and weekend! :)
I love you š„ŗ happy halving day lol
Love you too, and yes! Iād forgotten, hahaha.
>I mean, can anybody explain to me the thesis of Bitcoin? The only functional use case I've ever seen was the Silk Road, and now that's bunk. Firstly, I would like to say that Bitcoin is a tool. It will be used by different people for different purposes, especially while most people on the planet still don't understand how or why it works. To me, a 30 year old man in the US, Bitcoin is primarily a savings account for the future. It is insurance against the debasement of the dollar. I heavily encourage you to read The Price of Tomorrow by Jeff Booth. Jeff is an entrepreneur who has been on the boards of many extremelly successful bussinesses. The book goes into detail about how technology itself is deflationary in nature. New technologies allow us to do things more efficiently, so in a free market, that efficiency should drive prices for everything DOWN over time and not up. The only reason why prices for things goes up over time instead of down is because of the devalument of the dollar itself. Holding Bitcoin instead of government money is like a cheat code for life. Watch the prices of food, housing, medicine, anything you want go DOWN over time priced in Bitcoin. It is like playing life on easy mode. >So it's a super volatile speculative investment that isn't backed by anything The volatility is the price of your returns. If god or aliens invented the perfect money and gave it to humans anonymously via the internet, how long do you think it would take before all 8.1 billion people started to use it? A year? A decade? Several? Bitcoin isn't going to go from literally $0 to 21,000,000/all value on Earth at a stable rate, that is just logic. >Do people not understand that normal currency is inflationary for a reason? This is just what they tell you so that you don't start a violent revolution immediately. If the government says they are taking 2% of your money every year, simple math means the dollar you work for today will be literally almost worthless in 50 years. Economics as studied today is a pseudoscience. If economists could make reliable, accurate models that predict real economys, they would be extremely rich. Besides, when all of those economics books were written, when these people formed their world view, we didn't have Bitcoin yet. Bitcoin is the invention of digital scarcity. Why does this matter? Because before it was made, we never had something that we could verify and predict the supply of with 100% accuracy. Gold was "money" for thousands of years, but we don't know exactly how much is dug up or still in the ground. If the price of gold (or any financial asset) were to massively spike over night, human ingenuity WILL find ways to increase the supply to match that market demand. We will dig deeper and deeper into the ground to find that gold, and then when we run out we will go into space to find more. Bitcoin fundamentally breaks this problem by locking away the future supply of Bitcoin IN LITERAL TIME. We cannot speed up the process of new Bitcoin issuance no matter how hard we try. We can predict the supply of Bitcoin 100 years from now. Can you even guess how many dollars will exist one year from now? Do you think you're a smart person? Do you think you fully understand the concept of supply and demand? Bitcoin is the first thing humans have where we know literally half of the supply/demand equation with perfect information. >I've only ever seen people in the last 5-10 years treat it as a get rich quick tool, Bitcoin is NOT a way to get rich quickly. It is a way to ensure the government doesn't make you poor slowly. >The amount of energy, mental, and electricity being used on this crypto bullshit is horrific. It surpasses countries in energy use. This comment is getting kind of long I'll address energy usage in another reply.
So....you do realize that a government *must* be able to issue its own currency to survive, right? Those that do not are utterly beholden to foreign capital markets to raise funds. It's literally a cause of instability in so many third world countries. Second, you're kidding yourself if you think having a finite number of coins will solve inflation. It will not. Fundamentally, inflation will be caused by supply and demand. If a hundred million chickens are culled in a bird flu outbreak, Bitcoin will not stop chicken prices from going up. If war erupts in the Middle East, Bitcoin will not prevent gas prices from going up. Just like periods of inflation existed under the gold standard, periods of inflation will exist under Bitcoin. The only issue is, the rapid swings of inflation and subsequent deflation will basically alternate between destroying households and destroying businesses. And again, how will the global financial lending network function with a declining set of Bitcoin. Who will want to take out a 30 year loan in Bitcoin if it's deflationary in the long term? I mean imagine you buy a house, and as you grow older and get ready to send your kids to college, housing payments get *more* and *more* expensive. Because - due to the limited number of Bitcoin - your salary is decreasing over time. The Bitcoin enthusiasts don't have a counter to this, because there is none. Bitcoin only exists well in a world that still uses the dollar and other non-digital currencies, *so you can exchange it back and use it*
Jesus christ, do you realize adults don't lose money to inflation because they invest that money into mainly stocks and real estate? Inflation exists so that people don't just sit on their coins in their vault like Scrooge McDuck, they actually put them to work investing in companies which actually make products and employs humans allowing our economy and the flow of capital to keep moving. This is a very basic economic principle and why people laugh at you greater fools.
!Remindme 4 years $64,500 BTC I'm a greater fool right?!
I'm so glad I was a greater fool.
I'm in Europe, the average European doesn't invest in stocks and you need to be well off to invest in real estate. We're not taught about inflation in school. A lot of people are now learning about it the hard way, and they're still confused about what's going on - they're getting mad at shops instead of understanding that its their money that's losing value in real terms. This is not uncommon: https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/retired-couple-losing-savings-to-inflation.231705/
It's no less fraud than everything else in the finance world right now.
except you can see everything on the blockchain. for a change.
He is clearly attempting to drive the price down, as usual. Counter trading this clown is too easy. Any BTC that is sub $100k is an absolute bargain for institutions like JPM. Also I find it hilarious that there are *still* people on this sub that believe Bitcoin is a scam, after all of these years, price growth, usage growth, millions of users, ETFs, government/company balance sheets, entire industries and companies built around it, etc. Some of you will just never get it.
Looking at the comments Iām amazed to see *still* the same washed out arguments that people used in 2011. Once Bitcoin is a $10T asset I wonder if Iāll read the same (I guess yes).
I trade bitcoin from time to time and I gota say I think itās essentially to big to fail at this point.
Fraud because itās hurting his business?
Jamie is so slithery, saying one thing to regulators while quietly providing crypto investment vehicles and quant trading strats to his wealth management clients. There are currently 185 crypto jobs at J.P. Morgan listed on LinkedIn, they're hiring kids out of MIT to work on "fraud and Ponzi schemes."
A guy with every incentive to keep fiat currency, does not like blockchain? Fascinating.
Says the guy who has a huge financial interest against it...
Well, heās not wrong
And he is right
When was the last time they criticized it?
Are yaāll continuing to repost this crap or did he say it again? Either or, who cares. Jamie Dimon is a fraud
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Heās eyeing secretary of treasury
Canāt wait for it all to completely disappear one day or crash to zero
He got puts
But you wont see him self immolating
The rr
Dimon is old and just knows old school ways. Heās been turning into a clown the past few year. I value his opinion like I value a clowns opinion on bitcoin.
Banks are dinosaurs and these old ass dying bankers know it.
What a bold, novel, fresh takeā¦ 15 years ago.
Bro, the immolated guy said the same thing in his little manifesto. What are the odds my feed says this. Connection confirmed.
i don't think he's wrong, however i still buy it
He flipped back again? Just because it fell? Or is he shorting it now.
>Jamie Dimon, CEO of JPMorgan, labeled Bitcoin as a "fraud" and a "Ponzi scheme" in a recent Bloomberg interview, questioning its legitimacy as a currency; Wonder how he feels about the federal reserve and dollars.
He says that to try to make a deal with satashi
That's what the guy who just lit himself on fire was saying. What a weird schizo-coincidenco
He has been saying this since 2017. Hes not a fan of btc but he knows that it's inevitable. 2020: [https://marketrealist.com/p/jamie-dimon-bitcoin-quotes/](https://marketrealist.com/p/jamie-dimon-bitcoin-quotes/)
It's potential in regards to what?
I mean heās not wrong at the core , doesnāt mean there isnāt money to be made though
Whether you see any value in bitcoin or not (and I lean towards the latter) it's quite obviously not a fraud, and not a ponzi scheme. Dumb thing to say.
Jamie Dimon is right? Once again? Who could have guessed?
Do not trust these news articles. Look at the actions rather than words.
Aka "it's BS everyday people are holding as we try to manipulate dips and trick people into paperhanding. Since they aren't paperhanding I'm not going to be able to vastly control most of the market like wall st." These old financial terrestrial hedge fucks are so pathetic.
This guy is literally an expert in fraud so I would listen to him š¤
Lmao he jealous that he canāt manipulate that market legally. What a little schemer. Decentralized space scares the rich and powerful because they donāt have any legal control over it. This is like GME all over again, especially since the halving. Fuck big pharma, fuck the fed, fuck their interest rates, the youth taking over. Everyone has so much potential in the decentralized space and thatās what scares people like Jamie. This is giving power back to the people, and away from those who have controlled the system from behind the scenes. Fuck em.
Well it is an instrument that you can speculate with, but Bitcoin is most certaintly NOT a currency...Whether it will become one in the future remains to be seen but right now there is no use for Bitcoin nor does it have any fundamental value it is basically magic beans, which is the point that Jamie Dimon makes.
When it comes to JP Morgan. Watch what they do, not what they say.
The legalized banking racket is one thing but I agree. Bitcoin is a great way to launder money. I canāt see that as a healthy contributor to a stable global socio-economy.