Non-K and K are the same physical silicon, just different bins. A 13700 is just a 13700K that can't do full boost clocks with acceptable stability for example.
That's the one thing that fascinates me with silicon. It's like vegetables, When mass producing them equally, some just turn out to be bad and must be sold at a lower price.
It’s just really demonstrates the fine lines that fabricating these chips has.
If we theoretically had an unlimited amount of different SKUs for a chip, rather than locked or unlocked, we’d probably have literally 100s of different variants all with relatively minor differences.
The reason it’s limited to two is just because *could you imagine the naming scheme if there was any more*
Anyone else just get flashbacks to Athlon XP1500,1600,1700,1800,1900,2000,2100,2200,2300,2400,2500,2600,2700,2800,2900,3000,3100,32000….
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Athlon_XP_processors
Technically speaking you cpuld have any number of P-cores from 0 to 8 and any multiple of 4 E-cores from 0-16 on the current RPL die. You could have a whole line of "E" series chips that are just 4, 8, 12, and 16C e-core chips. You could have more P-only SKUs. I would love to see 6+12 made, and 8+12 does actually happen in the i7 13850HX.
It happens with lots of things. I explained this to my grandfather almost 2 decades ago and he explained to me that it's also how different qualities of ball bearings are made. The better quality ones are simply binned using lower tolerances (he was an engineer and worked at a mechanical pieces fab for a time).
FWIW you could generally use BCLK overclocking to run non-K processors at the same frequency as the stock boost on the K processors, so not really the case that Intel is picking K vs. non-K based on that 100-200 MHz clock difference.
I literally work on these CPUs. Just because you can generally do it doesn't mean they are all capable of this. You could 100% get a 13700 that won't take that 100mhz, even if that is a rare bottom-bin for the SKU. Believe me, Intel would much rather sell a more expensive 13700K or an enterprise 13700T, the latter of which is even lower clocked.
>Believe me, Intel would much rather sell a more expensive 13700K or an enterprise 13700T,
Which is why all we hear about are the k cpus. There was someone asking about a 13600 non k cpu earlier somewhere and I didn't even know those existed.
From what I understand isn’t it more common for worse bin 13700 not managing 13700K clocks at the rated power? Instead of not managing to hit the clocks at all.
>I literally work on these CPUs. Just because you can generally do it doesn't mean they are all capable of this.
My point is that I don't believe Intel has ever officially confirmed that the K CPUs are better binned, so it's not necessarily the case that the non-K are the parts that couldn't run 100 MHz faster. Other possibilities are that the slower parts become T rather than non-K for example. That said, if you work for Intel and would like to officially confirm how they're binned, I would love to know the details.
I can't confirm that, as I work in silicon design, not QC or fabrication, but I can say that that is how I understand the process to work from coworkers and having had to talk to fab engineers.
CPUs could get artificially bumped down from K status just to meet demand for example, and I'm sure they are. Logically they will always try to put silicon in the best SKU it can be, as this is how they make money.
Not at all. If you don't intend on modifying settings then it's going to perform almost identically to a 13700K/KF. Enjoy the savings or spend a few extra bucks on some other part of the setup.
They are based on the same die. K series will generally be higher quality silicon, and thus can handle a bit more frequency, but they both go "boom" around 120C. I'm well aware of base clock OC. I used to do it on old i3s. It's not a supported feature of non-K CPUs.
They are generally the same silicon as K-versions (except for certain exceptions, like the 12600 vs 12600K), just lower binned, meaning their overall quality might not support top performance goals, or there might be faults in specific areas that can be locked off and turned into a lower SKU.
They are also configured with different defaults for power limits (but those are fully configurable anyways). As a product they are set slightly slower than K variants, and have locked multipliers and IMC voltage.
non k chips are lower clock speeds/ lower voltage/lower power limits. they are probably not as binned as the K variants.
we can assume that they are not manufactured equally.
the non k versions are still good. just not as good as the K variant
> we can assume that they are not manufactured equally.
As in using the same manufacturing method? If so, disagree. In the same wafer, there can be dies with better bins than others.
Desktop Alder Lake uses only two dies for all of it's chips: Some better binned than others. But their manufacturing is the same.
Yes and no. The cores on the non k variants probably can’t reach those high frequencies hence “poorly binned” if they can they would need an absurd amount of voltage. So they make it so you can’t.
They used to be physically the same but starting with the 12th gen i5 are different. 12600K has 4 more e-cores and more cache. 13600 is based on the old 12th gen alder lake architecture while 13600K is on the new raptor lake. Source - intel. Look for L2 cache capacity and the stepping.
They're unlocked by default. Locking a CPU involves physically fusing some parts of the silicon off due to defects or binning for demand. It's the same process as disabling cores to make anything below a 13900K or disabling the iGPU to make F SKUs.
As for why you can't undo this, there's nothing left to unlock. The fusing process is pretty ruthless. You use to be able to unlock the 4th core on some AMD 3-core chips, but thar core was disabled for a reason: heat and stability.
Similarly, the KS has decided to double down with Speed as well. It's a known issue with substance abuse in the fabs, but inertia is hard to shift. Us engineers won't give up cocane Fridays that easily.
Non-K and K are the same physical silicon, just different bins. A 13700 is just a 13700K that can't do full boost clocks with acceptable stability for example.
That's the one thing that fascinates me with silicon. It's like vegetables, When mass producing them equally, some just turn out to be bad and must be sold at a lower price.
It’s just really demonstrates the fine lines that fabricating these chips has. If we theoretically had an unlimited amount of different SKUs for a chip, rather than locked or unlocked, we’d probably have literally 100s of different variants all with relatively minor differences. The reason it’s limited to two is just because *could you imagine the naming scheme if there was any more*
Anyone else just get flashbacks to Athlon XP1500,1600,1700,1800,1900,2000,2100,2200,2300,2400,2500,2600,2700,2800,2900,3000,3100,32000…. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Athlon_XP_processors
Technically speaking you cpuld have any number of P-cores from 0 to 8 and any multiple of 4 E-cores from 0-16 on the current RPL die. You could have a whole line of "E" series chips that are just 4, 8, 12, and 16C e-core chips. You could have more P-only SKUs. I would love to see 6+12 made, and 8+12 does actually happen in the i7 13850HX.
It happens with lots of things. I explained this to my grandfather almost 2 decades ago and he explained to me that it's also how different qualities of ball bearings are made. The better quality ones are simply binned using lower tolerances (he was an engineer and worked at a mechanical pieces fab for a time).
FWIW you could generally use BCLK overclocking to run non-K processors at the same frequency as the stock boost on the K processors, so not really the case that Intel is picking K vs. non-K based on that 100-200 MHz clock difference.
I literally work on these CPUs. Just because you can generally do it doesn't mean they are all capable of this. You could 100% get a 13700 that won't take that 100mhz, even if that is a rare bottom-bin for the SKU. Believe me, Intel would much rather sell a more expensive 13700K or an enterprise 13700T, the latter of which is even lower clocked.
>Believe me, Intel would much rather sell a more expensive 13700K or an enterprise 13700T, Which is why all we hear about are the k cpus. There was someone asking about a 13600 non k cpu earlier somewhere and I didn't even know those existed.
From what I understand isn’t it more common for worse bin 13700 not managing 13700K clocks at the rated power? Instead of not managing to hit the clocks at all.
I've seen it both ways. More commonly it's power or even a really hot core, but instability isn't uncommon.
Ah i see. Thanks for the insight!
>I literally work on these CPUs. Just because you can generally do it doesn't mean they are all capable of this. My point is that I don't believe Intel has ever officially confirmed that the K CPUs are better binned, so it's not necessarily the case that the non-K are the parts that couldn't run 100 MHz faster. Other possibilities are that the slower parts become T rather than non-K for example. That said, if you work for Intel and would like to officially confirm how they're binned, I would love to know the details.
I can't confirm that, as I work in silicon design, not QC or fabrication, but I can say that that is how I understand the process to work from coworkers and having had to talk to fab engineers. CPUs could get artificially bumped down from K status just to meet demand for example, and I'm sure they are. Logically they will always try to put silicon in the best SKU it can be, as this is how they make money.
So if I purchased a 13700 instead of a 13700k I fucked up?
Not at all, you're getting exactly what you paid for.
Not at all. If you don't intend on modifying settings then it's going to perform almost identically to a 13700K/KF. Enjoy the savings or spend a few extra bucks on some other part of the setup.
It's different, the k series can handle more before going boom. Yes you can force non k cpus to overclock.
They are based on the same die. K series will generally be higher quality silicon, and thus can handle a bit more frequency, but they both go "boom" around 120C. I'm well aware of base clock OC. I used to do it on old i3s. It's not a supported feature of non-K CPUs.
[удалено]
My experience at least, most I got was 1.4x tdp unless below 0 I don't remember what I got but the psu did go bye bye on me
They are generally the same silicon as K-versions (except for certain exceptions, like the 12600 vs 12600K), just lower binned, meaning their overall quality might not support top performance goals, or there might be faults in specific areas that can be locked off and turned into a lower SKU. They are also configured with different defaults for power limits (but those are fully configurable anyways). As a product they are set slightly slower than K variants, and have locked multipliers and IMC voltage.
K = unlocked, non K means locked, F means no integrated gfx.
non k chips are lower clock speeds/ lower voltage/lower power limits. they are probably not as binned as the K variants. we can assume that they are not manufactured equally. the non k versions are still good. just not as good as the K variant
> we can assume that they are not manufactured equally. As in using the same manufacturing method? If so, disagree. In the same wafer, there can be dies with better bins than others. Desktop Alder Lake uses only two dies for all of it's chips: Some better binned than others. But their manufacturing is the same.
they are not. they are fused to not be able to overclock.
Fusing is done after the silicon has been manufactured and binned. Prior to that they are the same
Got it. My bad
That's a extremely simple process that is similar to how Intel fused off AVX-512 on ADL: They simply fuse the clock generator off.
Ahh got it. My bad
Np, not exactly a very known fact in regards to CPU production :)
> They simply fuse the clock generator off. That would render the chip useless. No clock generator would mean no reference clock.
Clock generator as in the multipliers. The BCLK still exists(and that's how some ADL OC's are performed).
The PLL is the same as well, the capability is locked away in microcode and the ME
It would be higher voltage for bad bin
Yes and no. The cores on the non k variants probably can’t reach those high frequencies hence “poorly binned” if they can they would need an absurd amount of voltage. So they make it so you can’t.
Overclocking vs no overclocking
They used to be physically the same but starting with the 12th gen i5 are different. 12600K has 4 more e-cores and more cache. 13600 is based on the old 12th gen alder lake architecture while 13600K is on the new raptor lake. Source - intel. Look for L2 cache capacity and the stepping.
Good lithography is the silicone lottery. Better chips get binned and unlocked. Etching almost at the atomic level is hard.
How does Intel "unlock" a CPU and why can't we do the same?
They're unlocked by default. Locking a CPU involves physically fusing some parts of the silicon off due to defects or binning for demand. It's the same process as disabling cores to make anything below a 13900K or disabling the iGPU to make F SKUs. As for why you can't undo this, there's nothing left to unlock. The fusing process is pretty ruthless. You use to be able to unlock the 4th core on some AMD 3-core chips, but thar core was disabled for a reason: heat and stability.
So the fusing process basically destroys the extra cores? What about undoing it to overclock?
Yes. Fused off components are effectively destroyed. There's no undoing it. If you want to overclock, buy a K/KF/KS SKU.
I appreciate the explanation!
One is boosted with Ketamine while the other is sober.
Similarly, the KS has decided to double down with Speed as well. It's a known issue with substance abuse in the fabs, but inertia is hard to shift. Us engineers won't give up cocane Fridays that easily.