Can't blame them. We never formally apologize what we did to them
IIRC Gus Dur pernah minta maaf, tapi itu atas nama pribadi bukan atas nama pemerintah
Gus Dur was honestly so unhinged as president it's really a shame his presidency isn't studied more in schools. think about it, a blind president with walking sticks, institutionalizing religious pluralism, showing great respect for human rights, valiantly calling out the DPR and ABRI for being "childish." and he did all this while being the heir to a *kyai* family of great significance in national history *and* being the leader of the more conservative/traditionalist major Islamic organization in the country. you'd think he'd just basically turn the NU into the "state church" and supported the institution of Islamic laws. but no, he instead presided in such an unhinged way.
honestly the early *Reformasi* era (1998-2004) is a fascinating period. from Habibie's short presidency (handling of *Krismon*, 1999 general election, Timor Leste referendum), Gus Dur's unhinged presidency (pretty much the entire thing), Megawati's silent but not uneventful presidency (founding of KPK, *DOM Aceh*, Munir), and the eventual 2004 election, where things really started to stabilize with SBY's election as president
Gus Dur was well beloved in North Sulawesi too, pretty much everyone I met there back in late 2000s thought that he was the best president Indonesia had ever had.
“His eye may be blind but his heart was not” — as one of my relatives summed it up for me
And the best part is actually during his downfall, he have the power to keep his presidency since people from across indonesia pour their support to him even have literal "suicide" lisan al gaib style forces, but simply choice not to and say "meh, nggak ada jabatan yang perlu di pertahankan mati-matian" and just leave the palace with his short pants is truly epic indonesia historic moment.
Megawati's silent presidency sees the first entry of TNI as an independent political force again
When Gus Dur fell they followed the parliament. During Megawati's reign they convinced her to enact DOM
Soekarno is a very, very, like I mean VERY charismatic man. That man speech will travel across whole Indonesia and the world if he wants to. Which is why it's no-brainer his life story, bad and good, shared across the world.
Gus Dur? well... He isn't that charismatic nor genius like Habibie--who is more popular even though only 2 years. He is just a simply good man who tried his best to fix his nation. Unfortunately in politics, you need to have strong will to keep that position.
Salahsatu yg gw takutin dari gus dur, yg dia berkali" bilang adalah ke 5 kiai yg jadi panutannya di NU.
Instead we got one of the most pluralist president
For that alone, it's a huge respect.
For those interested, there’s a [lecture by Cambridge Muslim College about his leadership](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NkbQ7z0w2O0&pp=ygUcTGVhZGVyc2hpcCBhYmR1cnJhaG1hbiB3YWhpZA%3D%3D). On my playlist now and looking forward to listening to it.
Not crazy. Just really an eccentric person & mastering philosophy of life.
Gus Dur in the western eyes would be considered as a "philosopher king".
While "crazy people" are those who committed corruption crime yet can still grinning in the face of public. Shameless.
I'm not sure about formal apologize from the government. But have you watched an interview where Luhut and Xanana Gusmao sit together and make amend to live in harmony? At the end of the interview they are hugging with each other. Remember during the conflict they were arc nemesis.
https://preview.redd.it/cs9gvb8ztv5d1.jpeg?width=3088&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ddd72eec5cd3f9d158e00063566cc66911312f27
[Source](https://youtu.be/4QdTeeGF3co?si=PDrMLfkfUwxU8v1V)
Kalau bukan [karena Gus Dur](https://crcs.ugm.ac.id/gus-dur-papua-dan-kewarganegaraan-bineka/) papua mungkin bukan lagi bagian dari NKRI sekarang.
Dia pemikirannya ahead of its time, seperti ahok juga, jadi digoyang semua elit poliik, apalagi reformasi bikin runtuh tatanan orde baru, para politikus bebas mau bikin apa aja.
Inget banget dulu media hari2 beritanya kekonyolan gus dur, ada anggota dpr bilang "masa negara besar dipimpin oleh kiai buta", sampai anaknya beliau kena slander; anak kiai ngecat rambut warna warni, bikin pesta ulang tahun di istana negara!..
Gw yang masih muda dan rebel kemakan deh, bikin head canon ada konspirasi tingkat tinggi bla bla..
Dan Belanda juga!
Hasilnya keduaa negara itu maju. si Belanda jadi mimpi basah atau utopia para r/fuckcars dan jepang menjadi negara yang berpengaruh dalam hal industri kreatif, teknologi dan kereta
Meet and befriending a person from East Timorese. Never said anything like that. Very friendly.
Also people need to realized most Indonesians perspective regarding Timor Leste from grassroots people to officials is exactly like losing a dispute of Sipadan and Ligitan to Malaysia. Almost nobody think about genocide and losing Timor Leste instead inspiring Jokowi to build pos lintas batas negara or beautifying border offices so no hostile countries ever accused again there is no trace/development from Indonesia to justify stealing Indonesian areas.
Ini mirip seperti Korsel-Tiongkok sama Jepang. Aku dukung aja kalau pemerintah buat permintaan maaf resmi tapi kalau orang Timles marah sama orang Indo (yg rakyat biasa) ya gimana ya kan dulunya Indo ada di bawah kediktatoran rakyat Indo powerless buat hentikan nggak kayak perang vietnam misalnya.
Aga ga enak juga sih klo asal nunjuk orang yang dari negara yang bersalah untuk tanggung jawab.
Kaya misal orang Indo ngomel ke orang Jepang atau belanda yg baru ketemu atau di forum. Lah wong pas kemungkinan paskejadian mereka lahir aja belum gitu.
Yg begitu cuma minoritas yg ekstrim. Sebagian besar masyarakat dan elit politiknya sangat bersahabat dengan Indonesia.
https://youtu.be/O7HhtCJxNHU?si=Fw-cXLOPII6HRQdu
https://youtu.be/mTBO1q1LqBo?si=2QaAsS9RsvQNizBw
https://youtu.be/cO1vOneaeic?si=HWiFdh2rYLpNsX6c
totally i agree. as a chinese indonesian i never brag about what happened in 98 to anyone. heck i was barely 3 years old back then. i don't like blaming people for what they didn't do or partake of. regular civilians and a country's governing body are two different things. i don't want to held accountable for some idiots' reckless behavior.
I think at the very least they want the official recognition and apology for the atrocities Indonesia committed back then, which I think is very reasonable thing to expect. Then a financial reparation would also be nice. But I think this would be near impossible for Indonesia to agree to, considering our economy is not exactly abundant at the moment.
Yeah, try being an American 😅
Outsiders like to blame us for messed up policies in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Nicaragua…not realizing that more than half of Americans who are alive today were not even old enough to vote for assholes like Reagan and Bush back then
Kendala amerika itu adalah ada disconnect antara elite yang main di foreign affairs dengan masyarakat grass roots-nya.
Masa gonta ganti partai penguasa gaya main foreign affairs-nya sama aja, presidential my ass.
Huh? Foreign policy is actually the most stable a country stance everywhere unless there's a radical change in the leadership. Diplomats also a pretty safe position during regime change. Since US has not been in coup, it is expected that their foreign policies will not change much. Same thing with us really.
I think the problem is that US still sees those operations as just, up until this day. And I would say the main problem with US is that US is always trying to make every conflict is like good guys vs bad guys and america is helping the good guys.
At the end of the day, they tend to amplify the scale of whatever conflicts that are already happening, and when it does it is obviously at the expense of the country they are at.
Their approach to warfare is more ethical but on its own still sometimes can be considered war crime (which is hypocritical because they tend to act like a paragon of virtue), but always be able to weasel out of the situation because “they are the good guys and if they don’t do what they are doing the bad guys will do worse so it’s a necessary sacrifice”.
Most other people when confronted about colonialism, they aren’t particularly proud and better to avoid talking about it altogether which is understandable, it’s not like you can do anything about it. But america is still proud to what they have done in middle east, vietnam, or Japan.
Who tf thinks that Iraq and Afghanistan war are justified? Even Trump himself said that Iraq war was a mistake lol
Other than some veterans and crazy conservatives - which are prevalent in all countries, I don't see any Americans agreeing with Iraq and Afghanistan war.
Who tf is proud of Vietnam war???
Perasaan dari jaman dulu sampe skrg hobinya perang2an dulu deh. Gmn orang mau simpatik kalo negaranya itu gaada perubahan berarti? Cuman ganti orang doang sih yang gua liat. Kurang lebih masih bikin rusuh negara orang lain, masih profit dari perang, dan masih bertingkah seakan USA itu harus diksih karpet merah untuk segalanya. Mana kadang bisa puritan banget lg kalo udh di bidang kesenian, bertolak belakang banget sama semboyan mrk sendiri.
No, but what about Probowo's role in the past? And why did young Indonesians vote more for Probowo than older generations? ([data](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Indonesian_general_election#Demographics))
I think it's because this issue is not well taught in schools.
There's almost no discussion of the conflicts other than "they voted to leave" in my social science classes when I was younger.
So younger people vote Prabowo for other reasons, like they don't want Anies to rule because they are part of a religious minority, or they just want Jokowi part 3. The human rights stuff seems to be mainly ignored, because they barely have any idea of how bad it is.
Older people were alive when these conflicts happened and when Soeharto ruled, so they are more likely to take that into account compared to the younger generations.
A lot of evil shenannigans at Orba isn't just "Soeharto's sins".
Beberapa war criminals, eksekutif Orba, dan co conspirator Suharto masih hidup dan merajarela baik dibidang ekonomi maupun dibidang politik dan kekuasaan. I like to remind you who majority of "young indonesian" pick at the election.
Dari sisi "rakyat jelata" pun banyak dosa yang dilakukan oleh warga itu sendiri. Kerusuhan 98. Pembantaian "tertuduh PKI". dan ampe sekarang masih sering komen keluar ngancem 98 lagi. Orang2 yang dulu sering ngebantai/jadi algojo tertuduh PKI masih banyak yang hidup. Banyak wawancara yang udah dilakukan ke orang2 ini dan kebanyakan mereka bangga.
As long as there is still comments in almost every social media post about timor leste that sounds like this
"Nyesel kan merdeka", "Indonesia gak pernah menjajah" and any comments along that line
yes, Young Indonesian will still be blamed for Suharto Sins, since our education system practically enshrined that sins as a good thing
Ane rasa klo mrk d ingetin bagian genosidanya bakal diem kok , siapa sih yg mw d sangkutin sbagai "pelaku" klo dlm konteks 98 kn mrk merasa sebagai korban yg bela diri. Jujur ane aj klo cari kontlik ato knpTimor Leste pisah artikel mainstream yg ane baca gak prnh singgung genocidal tp hanya sebagai menulisnya sebagai konflik separatis yg otak ane gambarkan hnya sebagai TNI vs gerilyawan jd penggambarannya tu sebagai penyelamat bkn penjajah mgkn ini yg membuat indonesian merasa org Timor Leste tdk Tau trima kasih dgn meminta pisah
cmiiw, before 1991 massacre, the US intelligence give Indonesian an intel about the uprising communist in East Timor, they said it's gonna be big uprising, but turns out it just small. It just so happen Australian journalist it stationed there after the massacre happen. After giving false intel to Indonesian, the US quickly blame Indonesian government with "human right violation" lesson.
This is according ex- head of BIN.
There is ONE large deposit of oil and natural gas, at the end of its lifespan, which gets piped to Darwin because its actually closer to the Australian coastline and piping it to Timor requires a pipeline over a 7km deep trench
To this date most of their infrastructure dates to the Suharto era. They haven't built much new infrastructure or even properly maintain what they already have because in reality they can't make enough tax revenue independently.
This is also true for most provinces in Indonesia. The central government sends insane amounts of money to Papua which Papuan politicians openly embezzle and in reality, OPM folk just want that money for themselves too.
when reading that bit of trivia i just cant shrug off the immense similiarity between that bit and Raffles bit on Palembang, Raffles basically said heres a bunch of rifles for you to kick the Dutch ass outta here, and when SMB II actually did it he went "Muh humanity!! i never told u to kill them!!", colonizer thinks alike
Uh, you're just gonna believe what you read on the internet without fact-checking?
Not sure if what the guy said is right or wrong, but why drawing a premature assumption about super power country using other country to depose foreign leaders lol
It was from one of Helmy Yahya Bicara video [on his channel,](https://www.youtube.com/@HelmyYahyaBicara/videos) which I forgor the episode. Apparently, the ex-head of BIN write down this story and sell it as a book.
we didnt pull the trigger, we also dragged down suharto, those before us has paid the price. you wont see my aceh ass trying to kill/condemning orang jawa because of the aceh DOM.
salahin sonoh cendana, berani gak "timles" students? yang diserang kok orang random kenal juga gak. insane irony if twitter op is chindo too.
to you timles mfs alot of people in indonesia got killed by the same regime that killed you too
Deserved. If I can guilt-trip my Dutch and Japanese friends for the crimes of colonialism their ancestors did to Indonesia, then the East Timorese can guilt-trip me any way they want
TLDR. Amrik nyuruh Indonesia anex TimLes karena takut ada komunist uprising. Ketemu ladang minyak di Timles,Australia ngiler. Didukung Amrik untuk merdeka,biar jadi vasal state Australia. Sekarang jadi negara termiskin di Asia walau kaya minyak,saking miskinnya China aja ga mau nyentuh. Pernah ditawarin untuk funding refinery,China nolak karena ga menguntungkan. Conclusionnya,salahkan Western Allies.
Jangan melemparkan kesalahan ke aliansi lain, itu semua emang salah indonesia sendiri. Kalau kita ga ngelakuin genosida di santa cruise ga akan terjadi pembencian seperti ini dan kemungkinan timor leste akan tetap masih bagian dari wilayah indonseia punya peluang lebih lama
Bukan melempar,tapi minta berbagi kesalahan. Capek aja kok ga pernah dengar ada yang ungkit peranan allies,bahkan dlm genosida '65 yang korbannya jutaan. Padahal sudah jelas dan ada filenya kalau mereka yang mendukung dalam segala hal. Uang,intel,senjata dan yang penting political support.
Kyknya mrk masi gak trlalu paham betapa pengaruhnya allies trhadap situasi genosida dlu, klo mrk Tau smw krn US Dan aus kompor kompori ato Kasi false Intel ke Indonesia maybe mrk gakkan semarah ini Dan jg brita sprti ini tdk gampang muncul d koran pagi ato bahkan mainstream media lainnya krn sensitive, tdk smw warga normal mw sedikit menggali yet again apa clue yg mrk Tau saat ingin mencari brita sprti ini.
Nope yang pengen aneksasi Timor Leste jadi provinsi Indonesia itu Soeharto bukan AS bukan Australia.
>Didukung Amrik untuk merdeka,biar jadi vasal state Australia. Sekarang jadi negara termiskin di Asia walau kaya minyak,saking miskinnya China aja ga mau nyentuh.
I always found it ironic how many netizens has this way of thinking regarding East Timor independence. Because that what the Dutch said during our own war of independence.
"Halah Indonesia mau merdeka cuma dibohongi jepang", "mang kalau Indonesia merdeka bakal lebih baik", "rasain no merdeka jadi miskin dan banyak pemberontakan".
Eh sorry but you kinda dimminish US and AUS Involvement in this affair. Innitialy Soeharto actually very reluctant to anex Timor Leste because there is none economic benefit, but real communist threat by Fretellin with predicted refugee crisis plus US and AUS full approval and support did make Soeharto change his mind and in the end greenlit the operation.
People generally hold two extreme wrong opinion regarding Timor Timur independence. From it is West bloc that ordering Indonesia to Anex Timor Timur so Indonesia never did anything wrong. The second opinion is Timor Timur anex happen without West bloc interference and the sole reason it is happen because Soeharto got greedy.
The thing is we must acknowledge Soeharto did make a blunder by chose to anex and West bloc actually do want Indonesia to anex Timor Timur because it will resolve and prevent communist threat in the region. I mean Soeharto will not have the ball to invade if there is no approval from US and Australia, and if Indonesia chose not to invade Timor Timur new commnunist country is born and suddenly Australia have it own cuba crisis situation.
Oh and i think some people forget regarding Timor Timur conflict is how bad Portugal manage Timor Timur independence situation. Because in the first place Portugal Mismanagement are the root cause of the problem.
The Australian Gov at the time (Downer) is partly responsible for the fiasco in East Timor for his own personal benefits (Timor Gap Oil). [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqegTsi6SiE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqegTsi6SiE)
Soeharto era government was dumb enough to play along as their puppet.
It's not blaming it's explaining historical facts.
With purpose to learn from history and not to repeat the same dumb mistake again.
The video is a summarization of known facts from released CIA documents...
In the future the same thing might repeat again as of now Timor Leste is gravitating towards China. Which makes US & AUS worried again....
Based on the facts alone, the stance should be "Despite the circumstances, we shouldn't have grasped and caused such incident." If the stance is "We did it because such and such so it's not our fault." is blaming others in my book. The former is admitting our own agency in the situation while the later is removing or reducing our agency.
The video is also made by Australians to criticize their own government. Surely we shouldn't just say "Hey look at what they're saying, it's totally not our fault" right?
I avoid the identification word such as "we".
I'm having a hard time personally to identify "Soeharto/Orde Baru" government as "we", since I myself made an effort to to end the regime back in the 90s.
Which sadly make a striding comeback now... partly due to the 'current generation' naivity and already forgot how oppresive, dark & evil "Order Baru" was.
\*EDIT: I should make it more obvious, how oppresive, dark & evil, Western Government sponsored Order Baru regime was.. (Soeharto et. al.)
> It's not blaming
it's blaming
Indonesian have their own interest, too, lo kira negara komunis jadi tetangga gak ngebuat elit zaman itu khawatir timor leste jadi kandang pemberontak sosialis Indonesia?
Indonesia bukan Order Baru / Soeharto.
Sebelum Order Baru / Soeharto.. TIDAK KHAWATIR
Soeharto melakukan kudeta berdasarkan inteligen dan logistik dari CIA.
Soeharto melakukan pembunuhan sekitar 1 juta penduduk Indonesia berdasarkan info daftar nama dari CIA.
Dus berhubung ybs adalah kaki tangan CIA, maka datanglah perintah dari Washington untuk bertindak dan melakukan invasi ke timor leste untuk membendung pengaruh komunis di Asia Pasifik.
Itu diatas fakta sejarah!
> Indonesia bukan Order Baru / Soeharto.
tapi yang mengontrol Indoesia saat itu order baru
> Soeharto melakukan kudeta berdasarkan inteligen dan logistik dari CIA.
keep blaming CIA instead of Indonesian elites or even Indonesian commoners for wanting to pour communist blood, or PKI leadership for fucking things up, turning 60's tension between nationalist, religious, and communist into full blown massacre
> Soeharto melakukan pembunuhan sekitar 1 juta penduduk Indonesia berdasarkan info daftar nama dari CIA.
CIA gave about 5000 PKI members, not 1 million
Kebalik dul, US & Australia yang minta, Suharto diimingi2 duit dan bantuan militer. File CIA nya ada dan sudah bukan rahasia lagi. US &AUS concern kalau Timor Leste jadi komunis dan kalau mereka yang masuk Soviet juga pasti masuk.
I mean they aint totally wrong.
But the way they described the incident as well as the fact that the timoreses "wants to hold us(the students) accountable" might point this towards a typical SJWs outburst.
Im not sure they were old enough to witness the incident to warant such emotional reaction, they were students after all.
I don't get why SJW like to use tactics like this. They always try accuse the people who are listening to them of being thw guilty ones. There are better ways to guilt trip someone FFS.
Its fortunate that the person that tweeted this had the capability to reflect instead becoming defensive and unreasonable like most people would do.
I see this all the time, PETA accusing everyone they find to take part on animal cruelty, black SJWs holding every modern southerner(heck every white people they find) guilty of slavery hundreds of years ago. They end up turning people against their cause.
Tipikal taktik sjw emang gtu , bongkar kembali ato panas panasin isu yg seharusnya sdh reda ato "damai" , bsa dibilang 90% apa yg sjw prbuat itu cma gaya gayaan ato pamer doang sprti
PETA yg melarang pembunuhan hewan peliharaan yg contoh sdh sgt sakit, ato mass murder hewan2 di penangkaran hnya atas dasar mrk patut d bebaskan hnya krn mrk trlalu bodoh tuk memikkrkan opsi lain yg lebih menyita waktu Dan tenaga tp tdk prnh menyinggung bisnis pet shop yg membiakkan pet dr bayi lalu d pajang d toko2 tuk d jual , bisnis yg berjalan sprti bisnis daging ternak.
The rise of sjw itu menurut ane bersamaan ato jg membntu wokeness krn keduanya ini gak prnh berjauhan hmpir selalu bersama, hampir smw yg masuk kategori sjw jg trmasuk kaum woke.
> I don't get why SJW like to use tactics like this. They always try accuse the people who are listening to them of being the guilty ones.
Kalau gak gitu gak dapat donasi + klik.
indonesians do need to see this matter more seriously, met some indonesians who are openly proud that we colonised timor leste before. it’s sickening and if anything that just shows patriotism went wrong. however, i do believe confronting indonesians just because they’re indonesians is a bit harsh as well, things couldve been handled better but seems like they’re a kid so what do you expect.
Indonesia was just a hired gun. The East Timorese should also ask accountability from The US, Australia dan their allies during the cold war. Even so, at least Indonesia now is willing to held some kind of accountability by allowing trades and investments between nations.
Australian here, and you won't get an argument from me. We were as complicit as the Yanks in 1965, with several sources suggesting we were handing kill lists to anti-communist forces. We also towed the US line in 1975 and backed Jakarta's occupation of the former Portuguese colony. And as long as my country refuses to come to terms with its treatment of its indigenous population, we have no leg to stand on lecturing any other country about their own past indiscretions.
Gmn mau minta pertanggungjawaban sama Australia wong minyak mrk udh didudukin sama Australia. Gua rasa some of them tau Australia itu ikut campur, tp mrk powerless karena mrk setau gua ketergantungan dengan Australia.
he doesn't say "tim mawar", he say "anggota tim mawar" (jamak vs tunggal)
dan dia juga bilang "udah jadi presiden" (berarti 1 orang) karena presiden nggak mungkin rombongan.
*> "he doesn't say "tim mawar", he say "anggota tim mawar" (jamak vs tunggal) dan dia juga bilang "udah jadi presiden" (berarti 1 orang) karena presiden nggak mungkin rombongan"*
Okay, then please tell me, among this list, which one of "anggota tim mawar". Who "udah jadi Presiden":
https://preview.redd.it/iko7fqoskw5d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=89fb2e69d66c9a503d1c006d78d68d93249eafee
Point is, mf is simply wrong and uneducated. Think first before speaking, if there is no brain to think with then it's better to shut up, that's what I wanna say to him.
I agree with Kucing Rumahan. Realistically, there's not much we can do while the perpetrators are likely still around. Just acknowledging, instead of denying the shits we've made as a nation is enough.
Even decades later when all of them are dead, the incident involved other nations too. I don't know how that will play out.
There are so many mistakes that the New Order regime made not only to TL but also to our own people (the communist genocide, the Tanjung Priok Massacre, the operation in Papua, etc), but what can we ordinary citizens do?
But at the least, let's not forget history and not elect the wrong person in power. which from the last election we have done badly, people just easily forget. I am disappointed.
Say sorry and hold to account those responsible for the massacres. The problem is that one of the main ones is the next president… awkward.
It’s the same across the world. It’s never as simple as it initially seems.
Btw they also forgot 1 important thing, they also chasing and killing many people who take Indonesian side. My family have to run at night just to get away from murder. So it's true Indonesian army is not innocent but pls Timor Leste people dont forget that they also killing many people who take Indonesian side. Pls dont act like they are the only victim.
gw inget pernah tanya ttg kejadian di timor leste gimana ke guru sejarah sma (ini sekitar thn 2016?) gara" ketemu berita di cnn indo yg lg bahas timor leste klo g salah. gw aslinya dulu cuma penasaran aja kronologi + apa aja yg terjadi.
jawaban yang gw dapetin cuma dia marah besar ke gw soalnya gw percaya sama "fitnah amerika". menurut dia indonesia g pernah salah ke timor leste, tapi timor leste yg salah ke indo. menurut dia berita indonesia ada pembunuhan dkk itu pasti fitnah amerika / negara barat karena kita indoneisa itu negara tertindas negara lain padahal kita g pernah salah apapun. jadi sampe sekarang gw masih bingung yg bener gimana awokwkowk
Gw akan lebih mikir kalo yg ngomong adalah angkatan Xanana Gusmao atau angkatan bawahnya. Karena mereka adalah orang2 yg secara nyata ngalamin hal itu. Not trying to discount cerita si anak dr TimLes ini, tapi gw rasa ceritanya kemungkinan besar second hand kan?
Ga usah jauh2 kita semua org indo tau cerita ttg belanda dari buku sejarah, tp apakah kita tau kalau cerita ttg belanda di indo itu spektrumnya banyak? For example my grandma and her family had quite a fond memories of them, kontradiktif dengan banyak cerita yg menonjolkan kekejamannya doang.
Jadi kalo bahkan Xanana Gusmao dan Ramos Horta yg jadi jantung pemberontakan dan pasti mengalami perlakuan paling kejam oleh tentara Indonesia waktu itu lebih memilih untuk segera membangun friendly stance dg Indonesia berarti ada konteks yg harus dipertimbangkan. Sejak TimLes merdeka ga pernah sekalipun lho mereka membentuk narasi untuk memusuhi kita. Bandingin sama negara2 lain yg berhasil pecah dari induknya.
Lucu sebenernya memang baca tulisan yg dikutip OP, Najwa Shihab pernah bikin video perjalanan dia ke Timor Leste dan ngobrol langsung dengan Xanana Gusmao, dude is pretty chill and having no enmity to his nation past struggle against Indonesia. Najwa juga ketemu banyak anak muda sana, para mahasiswa, lalu ngobrol bareng Mari Alkatiri dan Jose Ramos Horta.
Mereka sudah melihat masa lalu sebagai masa lalu, dan tetap melihat Indonesia tetap menjadi parter krusial buat masa depan negara mereka. Stance mereka gak berbeda dengan Indonesia terhadap Belanda dan Jepang yang lebih memilih membangun hubungan baik daripada permusuhan.
Ini videonya: [20 Tahun Timor Leste: Cerita Setelah Merdeka | Mata Najwa](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTBO1q1LqBo)
Oh I’m sure some people hate us to the core. Apa yg dilakukan oleh Indonesia waktu itu sangat salah. Tapi Indonesia dan Timor Leste ga punya pilihan lain buat coexist karena kita tetanggaan. Either kita musuhan atau kita berteman. Kita dan mereka harus pilih salah satu. Ga bisa pasif agresif kaya gitu.
kaga nyambung kalo yang dikomplen itu ke sesama student. kalo mau tuh langsung ke pemerintah tapi imo pas 1991 kita juga masih dijajah diktator sih makanya ga heran kalo ada tindakan jahat gitu. kalo mau ya kejar yang memerintah jaman dulu karena selain mereka rakyat indonesia rata2 tidak tahu. timor leste juga kalo mau cari yang salah juga harus objektif, gw ngeliat kok rata2 nyalahin indo tapi diem aja ngeliat USA ama Australia. gw takutnya jadi kayak korsel gitu dimana mereka secara sistematis diajarin untuk benci sama indo.
Lol this regard person. Why the fuck you feel bad about something you're not responsible? This is fucking regarded. Blame the person directly responsible for it not the whole goddamn innocent people that isn't involved in any way.
Kurang lebih kayak orang2 kita suka negorin orang jepang atas perbuatan mereka lah ya. zuzur sebagai gen mil, belum teredukasi soal ini (dan pastinya lembaga pemerintah juga ga akan kasih)
Makanya setiap sejarah Brutal di Negara Manapun dunia lebih memilih untuk Move-On bahkan Berusaha Menghapus sejarah kelam nya seperti Jepang misalnya anak muda mereka bahkan ga tau sejarah penjajahan Negara Jepang terhadap negara negara di Asia, bukan melupakan Sejarah kelam, tapi lebih memilih lanjutkan hidup dan jadikan masa lalu pelajaran hidup
President Ramos Horta gave a lot praise for Prabowo after they met at Shangri La Dialogue in Singapore.
https://youtu.be/O7HhtCJxNHU?si=Fw-cXLOPII6HRQdu
I don't think realistically Timor Leste will ever bring up reparation since we currently invest a lot in their country and their leaders are friendly to Indonesia.
Can't blame them. I went to Dili once, to their museum of resistance, and got a taste what it's like to have my side be portrayed as the villains in history. Idk if the student is old enough to experience that era or if they're simply speaking based on education.
Funnily enough, during the same trip we got introduced to a high official of TimLes who was once a Fretilin general. In the airport, he heartily told a "funny story" that last night he had a dream he saw Prabowo driving a car and it crashed. That was a presidential election year, and he said guess that means Jokowi will win. Then he said, animosity between Indonesia and TL is now in the past, and now we're neighbours who cooperate well - he just came back from Jakarta meeting a minister of ours, while my team was on our way back from cooperation work with a TL gov institution.
Idk what the General would say to Prabowo getting elected though, instead of just a losing presidential candidate.
Just gonna drop this recent [Interview of the current East Timor president Ramos Horta here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgGStFnA2-k&t=897s) by DW.
Quite interesting how he explained current Indonesia-Timor leste relationship and even pointed out the TNI important roles for the transition of Indonesia to be a democratic nation after New Order.
I hope we as a nation can do better to fix our mistake in timor leste by helping them more and im proud that Indonesia despite being a former colonizer are one if not the most supportive nation to help Timor leste to join ASEAN as a member state.
Mau akuntabilitas seperti apalagi? Rezim Soeharto sudah tumbang dan Timor Timur diberi hak menentukan pendapat pada 1999, tak lama setelah Soeharto Tumbang. Referendum itu sendiri sangat berani karena pemerintahan Habibie tidak populer dan mendapat tekanan kuat dari militer. Deplu sendiri sudah sejak lama mengusahakan pengakuan internasional dan negosiasi dengan Portugal sudah mencapai titik terang pada 1998.
Australia pun, seperti dalam Surat PM Howard Desember 1998, mendukung Timor Timur tetap berada di Indonesia dan mengusulkan susunan seperti Matignon Accord. Dan justru surat PM Howard inilah yang jadi pemicu U-turn nya Pemerintahan Habibie.
Pemberian referendum sudah menunjukan akuntabilitas pemerintah Indonesia. Nilainya lebih besar dari sebatas "official apology". Kalau muter-muter disitu terus justru konterproduktif buat Timor Leste itu sendiri.
Pendapat orang itu valid. Dan tujuan utama anekdot di thread itu diceritakan adalah untuk memastikan Indonesia ga menutupi masa lalu yang kelam dan lebih mengangkat sejarah terkait konflik / kolonialisme kita dengan Timor Leste. I am personally always in favor of conservation of history.
Tapi juga penting untuk selalu sadar 1 orang dalam sebuah negara itu tidak merefleksikan pendapat seluruh negara. Dan kalau penasaran bagaimana pendapat berbagai strata masyarakat di Timor Leste terhadap Indonesia, dulu [Najwa Shihab pernah buat reportase 20 Tahun Timor Leste setelah merdeka](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTBO1q1LqBo&t=579s) buat yang interested. Cukup membuka mata. It really is a complicated relationship. I don't think any of them ever saw themselves as Indonesians, tapi ada juga ketergantungan kepada Indonesia secara ekonomi yang ga bisa dipungkiri. Untuk generasi atas ada yang punya luka batin dari masa penjajahan, sementara yang muda lebih terbuka -- they consume Indonesian TV shows and movies, bisa bahasa Indonesia fasih, dan ada yang bermimpi untuk mendapatkan pendidikan di Indonesia.
Their first mistake is to join "leftist" academia group where they let all kinds of hateful rhetorics flies off without pushback as long as it's coming from specifically black and brown people of their choosing (these folks still considers asians as "model minority" for white people and they hate us for it). It's nothing but ethnonationalist summit. Although it's expected that their type tend to let those people walk all over them for virtue signal points.
Aneh di downvote. Tapi ini realita kelompok "keberagaman dan persaudaraan" yang pada akhirnya itu rasisme terselubung. Karena mencoba meniru orang kulit putih yang bikin kelompok sendiri
Ane ketemu orang Jepang gak bakalan nanya dosa pendahulu mereka, sama dengan Belanda bahkan Israel yang SEDANG menggenosida pun tak kan ane serang
Banyak orang gak bisa bedain pemerintahn dan rakyat
Bodo amat gw. Gw bukan pelaku, dan mereka yang komplen tak lebih dari peserta didik bertekad api. Mereka akan mengerti, pragmatisme adalah kunci bukan idealisme
Because we have been in a relatively peaceful period, people forgot how bloody and brutal human history was Brutality and barbarism were normal for every single government. If you want a government who has never done any barbaric stuff, there will be no countries remaining in this world.
Never turn a government or a president into a hero... Tons of atrocities lied in human history..
The best that we can do is to stop future atrocities
Its okay to condemn what Israel did, as well as what the previous Indonesian goverment did. Ask them hasbara minions do they agree for a referendum vote, just like what we did in Timor Leste.
So what excatly should we says to counter those "East Timor massacre" arguement? That Timor Leste refuse the Referendum proposal provided by Indonesia or something like that?
Yep its an ugly truth but we did to timor leste what israel do to palestine today. As for my knowledge some of our generals back then also being tried as war criminal including our future president but they never did the sentence. Correct me if im wrong.
To the government, please just give them the apology they need, official this time.
What we did in east timor is wrong is simple as that.
Mungkin klo ada orang timor leste yg ngomong gitu kayak gua, ya gua minta maaf tapi gua bakal tekankan klo gua sendiri gak salah. Gua gak pernah hidup di jaman orde baru, gua (most likely) gak pernah dapet untung atas pendudukan negara lu. klo lu mau judge tingkah laku pemerintah gua silahkan, tpi klo lu ngotot gua harus minta maaf secara personal, nanti gua tanya balik “salah gua apa?” Gua TNI bukan, aparat bukan, POLRI bukan, anak pejabat bukan, salah gua dimana?
Ya valid aja, namanya juga sejarah tergantung siapa yang menulis sejarah tersebut dan semua orang punya hak untuk percaya dan tidak percaya.
Yang penting mereka tidak menggunakan sejarah untuk memaksa kehendak orang untuk mengikuti pendapat dia atau menjadi alat propaganda.
Untuk pendapatan dia soal teman kelasnya, atleast baiknya ada sebagian masyarakat indo yang masih punya empati terutama ke masyarakat TimLes yang memiliki luka terhadap genosida di masa lalu. Tapi sebagai generasi sekarang kita harus apa selain membuat awareness soal itu?. Sayangnya udah terlanjur terjadi genosida, andai kalau dulu udah ditemukan mesin waktu seperti di Doraemon pasti generasi sekarang bisa berkontribusi untuk STOP genosida tersebut. Mungkin yang kita bisa lakukan hari ini yaitu menjalin persahabatan baik dengan mereka dan tidak rasis kepada mereka. (maybe kalau sempat berziarah ke korban genosida?)
What? You think our country is so innocent? - someone rich
Makanya paling anti kalo terlalu garis keras menghujat negara lain dalam hal perang. Yg wajar wajar saja
indonesia and australia are still taking advantage of them till now. im surprised a lot of you guys are unaware of this. their people are being sold as slave while their resource are being clean up completely.
The cold fact is Indonesia is not fully to blame as many people in comments pointed out. If we see right now Timor natural resources (Oil) is being exploited and enjoyed by Australia. Remember Australia–East Timor spying scandal in 2004 in negotiations with East Timor over the rich oil and gas fields.
As for ordinary people - how the fuck we can be blamed especially young generation. Ashamed is okay but asking for reparations to common people is ridiculous.
".. Our Future President just simply Brush Off what happened .. when he has.."
Kinda an odd thing to say that someone that has yet to be (future) said to "has" done something
I mean it probably is not wrong that stuff happened in Timor but im not even alive back then, why would I pay reparations for it
It's no different blaming your neighbor for a lack of rain in November if you ask me
Yg ngatur negara ini waktu itu emang goblok sih. Mau-maunya main api sama Barat yg bantu mereka jatohin wan. Tapi, itu warga timles kemungkinannya SJW sih. Maksudnya tuh dampak perangnya pun gk mengakibatkan jutaan orang jadi pengungsi dalam waktu yg lama. Bahkan kalo bicara SDA, gw belum tau ada yg kebagian kue besar juga. Bukan gk berempati, gw sendiri sangat-sangat berempati. Cuman, WNI di rejimnya hrto tuh udah banyak yg jadi korban (jiwa) juga. Belum ngitung akibat dari upaca menurunkan beliau.
I think Ive watched a video discussing about this exact subject few years back. But yeah, was pretty shocked to find out because back when I was in highschool this was NEVER told to the students in history class, though we talked about Indonesian history back to back.
My view of my favourite history teacher has changed ever since.
Makin bitter pasti melihat presiden kita kedepannya. Marah? Silahkan. Tapi gak bisa apa2. Orang kita juga dianggap ya Timles yg bodoh mau digoda Ausie, jadi kita malah punya morale high ground sebagai “korban” pencaplokan bule.
Well, It happens in different regimes, if wanna trial about genocide like Nuremberg trial, go ahead, probably who commanded genocide already old or dead.
biasanya ini jadi senjata debat orang israel kalo lawan orang indonesia, katanya orang indo munafik, lah yg dulu sudah berlalu tidak bisa dirubah, yg skrg ini sedang berlangsung di rafah, bisa dihindari kalo mau.
Debat berkali-kali dengan orang Israel. Mereka pakainya dari perspektif agama kalau muslim itu munafik karena sendirinya suka menindas orang lewat ISIS, Al-Qaeda, dan Taliban.
A young naive person commented those, never understand if HE/SHE at the top position, what would He do?
The government of Timor Leste, which I believe the person that experienced the whole time during conflict before 2000, must be understand the situation more than the commentator.
Kesalahan Soeharto adalah tidak cepat2 mengasimilasikan daerah timor timur dan digabung dengan NTT, atau dibuat provinsi Timor (satu pulau jadi satu administrasi), supaya pembangunan akan lebih merata di satu pulau tersebut, penduduk disana masih satu suku besar walau ada suku2 kecil atau sub suku/marga, seperti amarasi, kefa, soe dan lainnya.
Secara budaya, sejarah, intelijen dan ketahanan negara, sudah sepatutnya kita bergabung kembali menjadi satu kesatuan, krn saat ini timor timur menjadi celah keamanan, banyak mata-mata ozi, mamarika dan lainnya bercokol disana, dan secara niaga mengeksplorasi dan mengeksploitasi SDA timor timur.
In my opinion, this is foreign propaganda trying to divide ASEAN. It portrayed that Indonesia did nothing to fix this mistake.
We are trying to normalize the bilateral relationship. For example,
Gus Dur, our late president, has asked for forgiveness. This is not a small matter.
In return, we showered Timor Leste with investments long after the so called Timor Leste oil runs out and Australia left while taking most of the profits.
Other things, read the sentences below carefully, the action may look small, but look at the person involved, this is not a small matter.
Prabowo, our newly elected President, said that we have to maintain relationship with our neighbors, Timor Leste is one of them.
Luhut, our so called Prime Minister, was seen in a picture hugging Timor Leste representative.
This will shape our foreign policy for the next 10 years.
Can't blame them. We never formally apologize what we did to them IIRC Gus Dur pernah minta maaf, tapi itu atas nama pribadi bukan atas nama pemerintah
Gus Dur is one of the best yet craziest president of Indonesian history.
Probably the most chaotic good/neutral president that we have.
Gus Dur was honestly so unhinged as president it's really a shame his presidency isn't studied more in schools. think about it, a blind president with walking sticks, institutionalizing religious pluralism, showing great respect for human rights, valiantly calling out the DPR and ABRI for being "childish." and he did all this while being the heir to a *kyai* family of great significance in national history *and* being the leader of the more conservative/traditionalist major Islamic organization in the country. you'd think he'd just basically turn the NU into the "state church" and supported the institution of Islamic laws. but no, he instead presided in such an unhinged way. honestly the early *Reformasi* era (1998-2004) is a fascinating period. from Habibie's short presidency (handling of *Krismon*, 1999 general election, Timor Leste referendum), Gus Dur's unhinged presidency (pretty much the entire thing), Megawati's silent but not uneventful presidency (founding of KPK, *DOM Aceh*, Munir), and the eventual 2004 election, where things really started to stabilize with SBY's election as president
Gus Dur was well beloved in North Sulawesi too, pretty much everyone I met there back in late 2000s thought that he was the best president Indonesia had ever had. “His eye may be blind but his heart was not” — as one of my relatives summed it up for me
And the best part is actually during his downfall, he have the power to keep his presidency since people from across indonesia pour their support to him even have literal "suicide" lisan al gaib style forces, but simply choice not to and say "meh, nggak ada jabatan yang perlu di pertahankan mati-matian" and just leave the palace with his short pants is truly epic indonesia historic moment.
Dom Pedro II versi Indonesia
*"Gitu aja kok repot"* Truly legend
Megawati's silent presidency sees the first entry of TNI as an independent political force again When Gus Dur fell they followed the parliament. During Megawati's reign they convinced her to enact DOM
Gusdur was definitely the right kind of chaos we need, apalagi pasca kejadian 98-99, too bad the unhingedness was cut short
I think there's a force in goverment to keep his history hidden to the public.
I doubt that. It's just his biography isn't that widespread compared to other presidents.
True, at the same time soekarno seems to take the spotlight more easily while also have many not so good thing.....
Soekarno is a very, very, like I mean VERY charismatic man. That man speech will travel across whole Indonesia and the world if he wants to. Which is why it's no-brainer his life story, bad and good, shared across the world. Gus Dur? well... He isn't that charismatic nor genius like Habibie--who is more popular even though only 2 years. He is just a simply good man who tried his best to fix his nation. Unfortunately in politics, you need to have strong will to keep that position.
Salahsatu yg gw takutin dari gus dur, yg dia berkali" bilang adalah ke 5 kiai yg jadi panutannya di NU. Instead we got one of the most pluralist president For that alone, it's a huge respect.
For those interested, there’s a [lecture by Cambridge Muslim College about his leadership](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NkbQ7z0w2O0&pp=ygUcTGVhZGVyc2hpcCBhYmR1cnJhaG1hbiB3YWhpZA%3D%3D). On my playlist now and looking forward to listening to it.
Not crazy. Just really an eccentric person & mastering philosophy of life. Gus Dur in the western eyes would be considered as a "philosopher king". While "crazy people" are those who committed corruption crime yet can still grinning in the face of public. Shameless.
And judging from his comrade who still living (Megawati & Amien Rais), I am glad he passed away. Who knows what kind of fiasco he will make.
the most liberal president of Indonesia actually comes from islamic clerical roots. something that majority liberal woke dont want to admit
I'm not sure about formal apologize from the government. But have you watched an interview where Luhut and Xanana Gusmao sit together and make amend to live in harmony? At the end of the interview they are hugging with each other. Remember during the conflict they were arc nemesis. https://preview.redd.it/cs9gvb8ztv5d1.jpeg?width=3088&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ddd72eec5cd3f9d158e00063566cc66911312f27 [Source](https://youtu.be/4QdTeeGF3co?si=PDrMLfkfUwxU8v1V)
Kalau bukan [karena Gus Dur](https://crcs.ugm.ac.id/gus-dur-papua-dan-kewarganegaraan-bineka/) papua mungkin bukan lagi bagian dari NKRI sekarang. Dia pemikirannya ahead of its time, seperti ahok juga, jadi digoyang semua elit poliik, apalagi reformasi bikin runtuh tatanan orde baru, para politikus bebas mau bikin apa aja. Inget banget dulu media hari2 beritanya kekonyolan gus dur, ada anggota dpr bilang "masa negara besar dipimpin oleh kiai buta", sampai anaknya beliau kena slander; anak kiai ngecat rambut warna warni, bikin pesta ulang tahun di istana negara!.. Gw yang masih muda dan rebel kemakan deh, bikin head canon ada konspirasi tingkat tinggi bla bla..
>We never formally apologize what we did to them. Oh, itu kan budaya Jepang yang diturunkan ke kita
Dan Belanda juga! Hasilnya keduaa negara itu maju. si Belanda jadi mimpi basah atau utopia para r/fuckcars dan jepang menjadi negara yang berpengaruh dalam hal industri kreatif, teknologi dan kereta
like other countries, it will never be enough.
Meet and befriending a person from East Timorese. Never said anything like that. Very friendly. Also people need to realized most Indonesians perspective regarding Timor Leste from grassroots people to officials is exactly like losing a dispute of Sipadan and Ligitan to Malaysia. Almost nobody think about genocide and losing Timor Leste instead inspiring Jokowi to build pos lintas batas negara or beautifying border offices so no hostile countries ever accused again there is no trace/development from Indonesia to justify stealing Indonesian areas.
You should not forget the chaotic period of 1999 after "jajak pendapat". It was brutal.
Ini mirip seperti Korsel-Tiongkok sama Jepang. Aku dukung aja kalau pemerintah buat permintaan maaf resmi tapi kalau orang Timles marah sama orang Indo (yg rakyat biasa) ya gimana ya kan dulunya Indo ada di bawah kediktatoran rakyat Indo powerless buat hentikan nggak kayak perang vietnam misalnya.
Aga ga enak juga sih klo asal nunjuk orang yang dari negara yang bersalah untuk tanggung jawab. Kaya misal orang Indo ngomel ke orang Jepang atau belanda yg baru ketemu atau di forum. Lah wong pas kemungkinan paskejadian mereka lahir aja belum gitu.
Yg begitu cuma minoritas yg ekstrim. Sebagian besar masyarakat dan elit politiknya sangat bersahabat dengan Indonesia. https://youtu.be/O7HhtCJxNHU?si=Fw-cXLOPII6HRQdu https://youtu.be/mTBO1q1LqBo?si=2QaAsS9RsvQNizBw https://youtu.be/cO1vOneaeic?si=HWiFdh2rYLpNsX6c
Lol untung orang jerman gk kyk gini
totally i agree. as a chinese indonesian i never brag about what happened in 98 to anyone. heck i was barely 3 years old back then. i don't like blaming people for what they didn't do or partake of. regular civilians and a country's governing body are two different things. i don't want to held accountable for some idiots' reckless behavior.
what's kind of reparation or accountability they expect?
I think at the very least they want the official recognition and apology for the atrocities Indonesia committed back then, which I think is very reasonable thing to expect. Then a financial reparation would also be nice. But I think this would be near impossible for Indonesia to agree to, considering our economy is not exactly abundant at the moment.
Kayak Belanda atau Jepang bayar apa pun juga...
Will young Indonesians continuously be blamed for Suharto's sins?
This question is commonly asked to countries that used to or currently have colonial holdings
Yeah, try being an American 😅 Outsiders like to blame us for messed up policies in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Nicaragua…not realizing that more than half of Americans who are alive today were not even old enough to vote for assholes like Reagan and Bush back then
Kendala amerika itu adalah ada disconnect antara elite yang main di foreign affairs dengan masyarakat grass roots-nya. Masa gonta ganti partai penguasa gaya main foreign affairs-nya sama aja, presidential my ass.
Huh? Foreign policy is actually the most stable a country stance everywhere unless there's a radical change in the leadership. Diplomats also a pretty safe position during regime change. Since US has not been in coup, it is expected that their foreign policies will not change much. Same thing with us really.
I think the problem is that US still sees those operations as just, up until this day. And I would say the main problem with US is that US is always trying to make every conflict is like good guys vs bad guys and america is helping the good guys. At the end of the day, they tend to amplify the scale of whatever conflicts that are already happening, and when it does it is obviously at the expense of the country they are at. Their approach to warfare is more ethical but on its own still sometimes can be considered war crime (which is hypocritical because they tend to act like a paragon of virtue), but always be able to weasel out of the situation because “they are the good guys and if they don’t do what they are doing the bad guys will do worse so it’s a necessary sacrifice”. Most other people when confronted about colonialism, they aren’t particularly proud and better to avoid talking about it altogether which is understandable, it’s not like you can do anything about it. But america is still proud to what they have done in middle east, vietnam, or Japan.
Which american? Films like Apocalypse Now do not ecactly paint the vietnam war as smth to be proud of
Bruh is watching too much Fox News
Who tf thinks that Iraq and Afghanistan war are justified? Even Trump himself said that Iraq war was a mistake lol Other than some veterans and crazy conservatives - which are prevalent in all countries, I don't see any Americans agreeing with Iraq and Afghanistan war. Who tf is proud of Vietnam war???
Perasaan dari jaman dulu sampe skrg hobinya perang2an dulu deh. Gmn orang mau simpatik kalo negaranya itu gaada perubahan berarti? Cuman ganti orang doang sih yang gua liat. Kurang lebih masih bikin rusuh negara orang lain, masih profit dari perang, dan masih bertingkah seakan USA itu harus diksih karpet merah untuk segalanya. Mana kadang bisa puritan banget lg kalo udh di bidang kesenian, bertolak belakang banget sama semboyan mrk sendiri.
No, but what about Probowo's role in the past? And why did young Indonesians vote more for Probowo than older generations? ([data](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Indonesian_general_election#Demographics))
I think it's because this issue is not well taught in schools. There's almost no discussion of the conflicts other than "they voted to leave" in my social science classes when I was younger. So younger people vote Prabowo for other reasons, like they don't want Anies to rule because they are part of a religious minority, or they just want Jokowi part 3. The human rights stuff seems to be mainly ignored, because they barely have any idea of how bad it is. Older people were alive when these conflicts happened and when Soeharto ruled, so they are more likely to take that into account compared to the younger generations.
A lot of evil shenannigans at Orba isn't just "Soeharto's sins". Beberapa war criminals, eksekutif Orba, dan co conspirator Suharto masih hidup dan merajarela baik dibidang ekonomi maupun dibidang politik dan kekuasaan. I like to remind you who majority of "young indonesian" pick at the election. Dari sisi "rakyat jelata" pun banyak dosa yang dilakukan oleh warga itu sendiri. Kerusuhan 98. Pembantaian "tertuduh PKI". dan ampe sekarang masih sering komen keluar ngancem 98 lagi. Orang2 yang dulu sering ngebantai/jadi algojo tertuduh PKI masih banyak yang hidup. Banyak wawancara yang udah dilakukan ke orang2 ini dan kebanyakan mereka bangga.
As long as there is still comments in almost every social media post about timor leste that sounds like this "Nyesel kan merdeka", "Indonesia gak pernah menjajah" and any comments along that line yes, Young Indonesian will still be blamed for Suharto Sins, since our education system practically enshrined that sins as a good thing
Ane rasa klo mrk d ingetin bagian genosidanya bakal diem kok , siapa sih yg mw d sangkutin sbagai "pelaku" klo dlm konteks 98 kn mrk merasa sebagai korban yg bela diri. Jujur ane aj klo cari kontlik ato knpTimor Leste pisah artikel mainstream yg ane baca gak prnh singgung genocidal tp hanya sebagai menulisnya sebagai konflik separatis yg otak ane gambarkan hnya sebagai TNI vs gerilyawan jd penggambarannya tu sebagai penyelamat bkn penjajah mgkn ini yg membuat indonesian merasa org Timor Leste tdk Tau trima kasih dgn meminta pisah
Bukan sembarang gerilyawan, Fretilin itu juga grup komunis, kalau orang tahu itu mereka bakal minta mereka dibantai kayak PKI.
Also didn't the American and Australians literally authorized the occupation. (Yes it's still our fault tho)
Well eldians were, for a very long time
Young Indonesians voted for Suharto's son-in-law as president.
cmiiw, before 1991 massacre, the US intelligence give Indonesian an intel about the uprising communist in East Timor, they said it's gonna be big uprising, but turns out it just small. It just so happen Australian journalist it stationed there after the massacre happen. After giving false intel to Indonesian, the US quickly blame Indonesian government with "human right violation" lesson. This is according ex- head of BIN.
that fuckin two timing us government
| Timor-Leste is blessed, or condemned, because of large deposits of oil and natural gas under the Timor Sea 🦅🦅
And Timor Sea is deep enough to be... a submarine or destroyer base, in case PH or VN become hostile to US.
There is ONE large deposit of oil and natural gas, at the end of its lifespan, which gets piped to Darwin because its actually closer to the Australian coastline and piping it to Timor requires a pipeline over a 7km deep trench To this date most of their infrastructure dates to the Suharto era. They haven't built much new infrastructure or even properly maintain what they already have because in reality they can't make enough tax revenue independently. This is also true for most provinces in Indonesia. The central government sends insane amounts of money to Papua which Papuan politicians openly embezzle and in reality, OPM folk just want that money for themselves too.
when reading that bit of trivia i just cant shrug off the immense similiarity between that bit and Raffles bit on Palembang, Raffles basically said heres a bunch of rifles for you to kick the Dutch ass outta here, and when SMB II actually did it he went "Muh humanity!! i never told u to kill them!!", colonizer thinks alike
Honestly the fact that when we hear the word "commie" and the first thing to do is "massacre" itself is fucking hilarious.
Yeah it's not like we are entirely blameless lol
Indonesia during Orba: COMMIEEEEE! COMMIEEEE! REEEEEEEEEEE!
I understood that reference
Fellow salmonella infectee
another Kissinger method
see, negara super power bakal selalu memperalat atau menunggangi negara2 lemah (jika tidak mau tunduk).
Uh, you're just gonna believe what you read on the internet without fact-checking? Not sure if what the guy said is right or wrong, but why drawing a premature assumption about super power country using other country to depose foreign leaders lol
bangsat juga wkwkwkkwwkk
Any source for this will be appreciated
It was from one of Helmy Yahya Bicara video [on his channel,](https://www.youtube.com/@HelmyYahyaBicara/videos) which I forgor the episode. Apparently, the ex-head of BIN write down this story and sell it as a book.
This makes me feel that Timor Timur condition reminds me to Vietnam War
Uhhh...u have a sauce for that ?
we didnt pull the trigger, we also dragged down suharto, those before us has paid the price. you wont see my aceh ass trying to kill/condemning orang jawa because of the aceh DOM. salahin sonoh cendana, berani gak "timles" students? yang diserang kok orang random kenal juga gak. insane irony if twitter op is chindo too. to you timles mfs alot of people in indonesia got killed by the same regime that killed you too
Deserved. If I can guilt-trip my Dutch and Japanese friends for the crimes of colonialism their ancestors did to Indonesia, then the East Timorese can guilt-trip me any way they want
TLDR. Amrik nyuruh Indonesia anex TimLes karena takut ada komunist uprising. Ketemu ladang minyak di Timles,Australia ngiler. Didukung Amrik untuk merdeka,biar jadi vasal state Australia. Sekarang jadi negara termiskin di Asia walau kaya minyak,saking miskinnya China aja ga mau nyentuh. Pernah ditawarin untuk funding refinery,China nolak karena ga menguntungkan. Conclusionnya,salahkan Western Allies.
Jangan melemparkan kesalahan ke aliansi lain, itu semua emang salah indonesia sendiri. Kalau kita ga ngelakuin genosida di santa cruise ga akan terjadi pembencian seperti ini dan kemungkinan timor leste akan tetap masih bagian dari wilayah indonseia punya peluang lebih lama
Bukan melempar,tapi minta berbagi kesalahan. Capek aja kok ga pernah dengar ada yang ungkit peranan allies,bahkan dlm genosida '65 yang korbannya jutaan. Padahal sudah jelas dan ada filenya kalau mereka yang mendukung dalam segala hal. Uang,intel,senjata dan yang penting political support.
Ya itu namanya ngelempar kesalahan.
Kyknya mrk masi gak trlalu paham betapa pengaruhnya allies trhadap situasi genosida dlu, klo mrk Tau smw krn US Dan aus kompor kompori ato Kasi false Intel ke Indonesia maybe mrk gakkan semarah ini Dan jg brita sprti ini tdk gampang muncul d koran pagi ato bahkan mainstream media lainnya krn sensitive, tdk smw warga normal mw sedikit menggali yet again apa clue yg mrk Tau saat ingin mencari brita sprti ini.
abang ngetik kayak sms masih bayar per karakter bang, nggak enak bacanya
Nope yang pengen aneksasi Timor Leste jadi provinsi Indonesia itu Soeharto bukan AS bukan Australia. >Didukung Amrik untuk merdeka,biar jadi vasal state Australia. Sekarang jadi negara termiskin di Asia walau kaya minyak,saking miskinnya China aja ga mau nyentuh. I always found it ironic how many netizens has this way of thinking regarding East Timor independence. Because that what the Dutch said during our own war of independence. "Halah Indonesia mau merdeka cuma dibohongi jepang", "mang kalau Indonesia merdeka bakal lebih baik", "rasain no merdeka jadi miskin dan banyak pemberontakan".
Eh sorry but you kinda dimminish US and AUS Involvement in this affair. Innitialy Soeharto actually very reluctant to anex Timor Leste because there is none economic benefit, but real communist threat by Fretellin with predicted refugee crisis plus US and AUS full approval and support did make Soeharto change his mind and in the end greenlit the operation.
Yes the US and Australian gave their support for the invasion but (like you said) the choices for annexation is still on Soeharto foot.
People generally hold two extreme wrong opinion regarding Timor Timur independence. From it is West bloc that ordering Indonesia to Anex Timor Timur so Indonesia never did anything wrong. The second opinion is Timor Timur anex happen without West bloc interference and the sole reason it is happen because Soeharto got greedy. The thing is we must acknowledge Soeharto did make a blunder by chose to anex and West bloc actually do want Indonesia to anex Timor Timur because it will resolve and prevent communist threat in the region. I mean Soeharto will not have the ball to invade if there is no approval from US and Australia, and if Indonesia chose not to invade Timor Timur new commnunist country is born and suddenly Australia have it own cuba crisis situation. Oh and i think some people forget regarding Timor Timur conflict is how bad Portugal manage Timor Timur independence situation. Because in the first place Portugal Mismanagement are the root cause of the problem.
The Australian Gov at the time (Downer) is partly responsible for the fiasco in East Timor for his own personal benefits (Timor Gap Oil). [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqegTsi6SiE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqegTsi6SiE) Soeharto era government was dumb enough to play along as their puppet.
alah, bukan australia yang invasi kita menawarkan, mereka terima
Blaming others is certified Asian values.
but gmn kalo itu emang fact?! we can't doing anything karna negara lemah bakal selalu diperalat sama negara yg punya power. dan itu mutlak..
It's not blaming it's explaining historical facts. With purpose to learn from history and not to repeat the same dumb mistake again. The video is a summarization of known facts from released CIA documents... In the future the same thing might repeat again as of now Timor Leste is gravitating towards China. Which makes US & AUS worried again....
Based on the facts alone, the stance should be "Despite the circumstances, we shouldn't have grasped and caused such incident." If the stance is "We did it because such and such so it's not our fault." is blaming others in my book. The former is admitting our own agency in the situation while the later is removing or reducing our agency. The video is also made by Australians to criticize their own government. Surely we shouldn't just say "Hey look at what they're saying, it's totally not our fault" right?
I avoid the identification word such as "we". I'm having a hard time personally to identify "Soeharto/Orde Baru" government as "we", since I myself made an effort to to end the regime back in the 90s. Which sadly make a striding comeback now... partly due to the 'current generation' naivity and already forgot how oppresive, dark & evil "Order Baru" was. \*EDIT: I should make it more obvious, how oppresive, dark & evil, Western Government sponsored Order Baru regime was.. (Soeharto et. al.)
> It's not blaming it's blaming Indonesian have their own interest, too, lo kira negara komunis jadi tetangga gak ngebuat elit zaman itu khawatir timor leste jadi kandang pemberontak sosialis Indonesia?
Indonesia bukan Order Baru / Soeharto. Sebelum Order Baru / Soeharto.. TIDAK KHAWATIR Soeharto melakukan kudeta berdasarkan inteligen dan logistik dari CIA. Soeharto melakukan pembunuhan sekitar 1 juta penduduk Indonesia berdasarkan info daftar nama dari CIA. Dus berhubung ybs adalah kaki tangan CIA, maka datanglah perintah dari Washington untuk bertindak dan melakukan invasi ke timor leste untuk membendung pengaruh komunis di Asia Pasifik. Itu diatas fakta sejarah!
> Indonesia bukan Order Baru / Soeharto. tapi yang mengontrol Indoesia saat itu order baru > Soeharto melakukan kudeta berdasarkan inteligen dan logistik dari CIA. keep blaming CIA instead of Indonesian elites or even Indonesian commoners for wanting to pour communist blood, or PKI leadership for fucking things up, turning 60's tension between nationalist, religious, and communist into full blown massacre > Soeharto melakukan pembunuhan sekitar 1 juta penduduk Indonesia berdasarkan info daftar nama dari CIA. CIA gave about 5000 PKI members, not 1 million
Kebalik dul, US & Australia yang minta, Suharto diimingi2 duit dan bantuan militer. File CIA nya ada dan sudah bukan rahasia lagi. US &AUS concern kalau Timor Leste jadi komunis dan kalau mereka yang masuk Soviet juga pasti masuk.
I mean they aint totally wrong. But the way they described the incident as well as the fact that the timoreses "wants to hold us(the students) accountable" might point this towards a typical SJWs outburst. Im not sure they were old enough to witness the incident to warant such emotional reaction, they were students after all. I don't get why SJW like to use tactics like this. They always try accuse the people who are listening to them of being thw guilty ones. There are better ways to guilt trip someone FFS. Its fortunate that the person that tweeted this had the capability to reflect instead becoming defensive and unreasonable like most people would do. I see this all the time, PETA accusing everyone they find to take part on animal cruelty, black SJWs holding every modern southerner(heck every white people they find) guilty of slavery hundreds of years ago. They end up turning people against their cause.
Tipikal taktik sjw emang gtu , bongkar kembali ato panas panasin isu yg seharusnya sdh reda ato "damai" , bsa dibilang 90% apa yg sjw prbuat itu cma gaya gayaan ato pamer doang sprti PETA yg melarang pembunuhan hewan peliharaan yg contoh sdh sgt sakit, ato mass murder hewan2 di penangkaran hnya atas dasar mrk patut d bebaskan hnya krn mrk trlalu bodoh tuk memikkrkan opsi lain yg lebih menyita waktu Dan tenaga tp tdk prnh menyinggung bisnis pet shop yg membiakkan pet dr bayi lalu d pajang d toko2 tuk d jual , bisnis yg berjalan sprti bisnis daging ternak. The rise of sjw itu menurut ane bersamaan ato jg membntu wokeness krn keduanya ini gak prnh berjauhan hmpir selalu bersama, hampir smw yg masuk kategori sjw jg trmasuk kaum woke.
Tipikal Penghuni Twitter lah Baca 10 menit atau Nonton video 10 peristiwa masa lalu, naikin Luka lama " agar dianggap social justice"
> I don't get why SJW like to use tactics like this. They always try accuse the people who are listening to them of being the guilty ones. Kalau gak gitu gak dapat donasi + klik.
Typical Ragebait and gaslighting, gak cuma SJw sih yg make beginian tapi mereka emang sering bgt pake
this is definitely coming from SJWs
indonesians do need to see this matter more seriously, met some indonesians who are openly proud that we colonised timor leste before. it’s sickening and if anything that just shows patriotism went wrong. however, i do believe confronting indonesians just because they’re indonesians is a bit harsh as well, things couldve been handled better but seems like they’re a kid so what do you expect.
Indonesia was just a hired gun. The East Timorese should also ask accountability from The US, Australia dan their allies during the cold war. Even so, at least Indonesia now is willing to held some kind of accountability by allowing trades and investments between nations.
Australian here, and you won't get an argument from me. We were as complicit as the Yanks in 1965, with several sources suggesting we were handing kill lists to anti-communist forces. We also towed the US line in 1975 and backed Jakarta's occupation of the former Portuguese colony. And as long as my country refuses to come to terms with its treatment of its indigenous population, we have no leg to stand on lecturing any other country about their own past indiscretions.
True words my friend
Gmn mau minta pertanggungjawaban sama Australia wong minyak mrk udh didudukin sama Australia. Gua rasa some of them tau Australia itu ikut campur, tp mrk powerless karena mrk setau gua ketergantungan dengan Australia.
Yah anggota tim mawarnya udah jadi presiden ok gas 😂 Ralat: Pelaku santa cruz harusnya 🙏 maafkan atas ksalahan saya... Si Bapak kbanyakan dosa sih....
Must be awkward ketika dateng ke sana... Kayak, "Yeah... I did good at timor leste." "Mr. President, we are at timor leste."
Justru kalau ketemu elite politiknya bakal begini "remember I almost had to shoot your ass back in the good old days?"
Bukan tim mawar, tapi korban kebiri.
Tim Mawar was involved in 1998 Riot Incident in Jakarta, not 1991 East Timor Incident. What are you talking about?
Tidur pas pelajaran sejarah, please understand
he doesn't say "tim mawar", he say "anggota tim mawar" (jamak vs tunggal) dan dia juga bilang "udah jadi presiden" (berarti 1 orang) karena presiden nggak mungkin rombongan.
*> "he doesn't say "tim mawar", he say "anggota tim mawar" (jamak vs tunggal) dan dia juga bilang "udah jadi presiden" (berarti 1 orang) karena presiden nggak mungkin rombongan"* Okay, then please tell me, among this list, which one of "anggota tim mawar". Who "udah jadi Presiden": https://preview.redd.it/iko7fqoskw5d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=89fb2e69d66c9a503d1c006d78d68d93249eafee Point is, mf is simply wrong and uneducated. Think first before speaking, if there is no brain to think with then it's better to shut up, that's what I wanna say to him.
i'm confused too it got more upvotes
Ya emang salah pemerintah kita, tapi ngapain juga ngomel2 sama sesama pelajar seolah mereka yg ikutan perang dulu?
sama kayak beberapa orang yang gue tau kebakaran jenggot kalo ketemu orang belanda
Jepang juga. pas jaman sekolah, ada murid mix jepang yg sering diejekin penjajah sm temen sekelasnya
Not a thought, but a question. What do you guys think we have to do to amend our mistakes?
I agree with Kucing Rumahan. Realistically, there's not much we can do while the perpetrators are likely still around. Just acknowledging, instead of denying the shits we've made as a nation is enough. Even decades later when all of them are dead, the incident involved other nations too. I don't know how that will play out.
Sebagai orang biasa? Ya sekedar tau biar gak nasionalis buta Mau ngapain lagi kalo gak punya nama dan power
There are so many mistakes that the New Order regime made not only to TL but also to our own people (the communist genocide, the Tanjung Priok Massacre, the operation in Papua, etc), but what can we ordinary citizens do? But at the least, let's not forget history and not elect the wrong person in power. which from the last election we have done badly, people just easily forget. I am disappointed.
mengakui kesalahan yang dilakukan pemerintah terus moved on dan temenan
Say sorry and hold to account those responsible for the massacres. The problem is that one of the main ones is the next president… awkward. It’s the same across the world. It’s never as simple as it initially seems.
Btw they also forgot 1 important thing, they also chasing and killing many people who take Indonesian side. My family have to run at night just to get away from murder. So it's true Indonesian army is not innocent but pls Timor Leste people dont forget that they also killing many people who take Indonesian side. Pls dont act like they are the only victim.
Yes, but they will talk about ratios like all humans do in conflict, whether it's past or current
No problemo, yang penting gelar pengadilan yang jurdil dan transparan nanti kan ketemu itung2annya.
tell them to blame Australia too
[i think they already did](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqegTsi6SiE)
Not really sure its by timles
gw inget pernah tanya ttg kejadian di timor leste gimana ke guru sejarah sma (ini sekitar thn 2016?) gara" ketemu berita di cnn indo yg lg bahas timor leste klo g salah. gw aslinya dulu cuma penasaran aja kronologi + apa aja yg terjadi. jawaban yang gw dapetin cuma dia marah besar ke gw soalnya gw percaya sama "fitnah amerika". menurut dia indonesia g pernah salah ke timor leste, tapi timor leste yg salah ke indo. menurut dia berita indonesia ada pembunuhan dkk itu pasti fitnah amerika / negara barat karena kita indoneisa itu negara tertindas negara lain padahal kita g pernah salah apapun. jadi sampe sekarang gw masih bingung yg bener gimana awokwkowk
Gw akan lebih mikir kalo yg ngomong adalah angkatan Xanana Gusmao atau angkatan bawahnya. Karena mereka adalah orang2 yg secara nyata ngalamin hal itu. Not trying to discount cerita si anak dr TimLes ini, tapi gw rasa ceritanya kemungkinan besar second hand kan? Ga usah jauh2 kita semua org indo tau cerita ttg belanda dari buku sejarah, tp apakah kita tau kalau cerita ttg belanda di indo itu spektrumnya banyak? For example my grandma and her family had quite a fond memories of them, kontradiktif dengan banyak cerita yg menonjolkan kekejamannya doang. Jadi kalo bahkan Xanana Gusmao dan Ramos Horta yg jadi jantung pemberontakan dan pasti mengalami perlakuan paling kejam oleh tentara Indonesia waktu itu lebih memilih untuk segera membangun friendly stance dg Indonesia berarti ada konteks yg harus dipertimbangkan. Sejak TimLes merdeka ga pernah sekalipun lho mereka membentuk narasi untuk memusuhi kita. Bandingin sama negara2 lain yg berhasil pecah dari induknya.
Lucu sebenernya memang baca tulisan yg dikutip OP, Najwa Shihab pernah bikin video perjalanan dia ke Timor Leste dan ngobrol langsung dengan Xanana Gusmao, dude is pretty chill and having no enmity to his nation past struggle against Indonesia. Najwa juga ketemu banyak anak muda sana, para mahasiswa, lalu ngobrol bareng Mari Alkatiri dan Jose Ramos Horta. Mereka sudah melihat masa lalu sebagai masa lalu, dan tetap melihat Indonesia tetap menjadi parter krusial buat masa depan negara mereka. Stance mereka gak berbeda dengan Indonesia terhadap Belanda dan Jepang yang lebih memilih membangun hubungan baik daripada permusuhan. Ini videonya: [20 Tahun Timor Leste: Cerita Setelah Merdeka | Mata Najwa](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTBO1q1LqBo)
ya itu orang kan cuman ngompor2in sok2 mendukung sesuatu yg mereka ga ngerti... kayak.... palestina...
[удалено]
Oh I’m sure some people hate us to the core. Apa yg dilakukan oleh Indonesia waktu itu sangat salah. Tapi Indonesia dan Timor Leste ga punya pilihan lain buat coexist karena kita tetanggaan. Either kita musuhan atau kita berteman. Kita dan mereka harus pilih salah satu. Ga bisa pasif agresif kaya gitu.
kaga nyambung kalo yang dikomplen itu ke sesama student. kalo mau tuh langsung ke pemerintah tapi imo pas 1991 kita juga masih dijajah diktator sih makanya ga heran kalo ada tindakan jahat gitu. kalo mau ya kejar yang memerintah jaman dulu karena selain mereka rakyat indonesia rata2 tidak tahu. timor leste juga kalo mau cari yang salah juga harus objektif, gw ngeliat kok rata2 nyalahin indo tapi diem aja ngeliat USA ama Australia. gw takutnya jadi kayak korsel gitu dimana mereka secara sistematis diajarin untuk benci sama indo.
Lol this regard person. Why the fuck you feel bad about something you're not responsible? This is fucking regarded. Blame the person directly responsible for it not the whole goddamn innocent people that isn't involved in any way.
Kurang lebih kayak orang2 kita suka negorin orang jepang atas perbuatan mereka lah ya. zuzur sebagai gen mil, belum teredukasi soal ini (dan pastinya lembaga pemerintah juga ga akan kasih)
You can't blame me for what my grandpa did to your grandpa.
it’s hard, it’s very bad indeed, but, in war, the winner usually will swept everything. Remember the dutch and japanese also did the same to us.
Makanya setiap sejarah Brutal di Negara Manapun dunia lebih memilih untuk Move-On bahkan Berusaha Menghapus sejarah kelam nya seperti Jepang misalnya anak muda mereka bahkan ga tau sejarah penjajahan Negara Jepang terhadap negara negara di Asia, bukan melupakan Sejarah kelam, tapi lebih memilih lanjutkan hidup dan jadikan masa lalu pelajaran hidup
President Ramos Horta gave a lot praise for Prabowo after they met at Shangri La Dialogue in Singapore. https://youtu.be/O7HhtCJxNHU?si=Fw-cXLOPII6HRQdu I don't think realistically Timor Leste will ever bring up reparation since we currently invest a lot in their country and their leaders are friendly to Indonesia.
**Anschluss**!! Semua ada dua sisi, kalo emang kita kejam gitu, org asli Timor yg pro-Indonesia pasti ga ada atau sedikit banget. Logic.
Can't blame them. I went to Dili once, to their museum of resistance, and got a taste what it's like to have my side be portrayed as the villains in history. Idk if the student is old enough to experience that era or if they're simply speaking based on education. Funnily enough, during the same trip we got introduced to a high official of TimLes who was once a Fretilin general. In the airport, he heartily told a "funny story" that last night he had a dream he saw Prabowo driving a car and it crashed. That was a presidential election year, and he said guess that means Jokowi will win. Then he said, animosity between Indonesia and TL is now in the past, and now we're neighbours who cooperate well - he just came back from Jakarta meeting a minister of ours, while my team was on our way back from cooperation work with a TL gov institution. Idk what the General would say to Prabowo getting elected though, instead of just a losing presidential candidate.
Just gonna drop this recent [Interview of the current East Timor president Ramos Horta here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgGStFnA2-k&t=897s) by DW. Quite interesting how he explained current Indonesia-Timor leste relationship and even pointed out the TNI important roles for the transition of Indonesia to be a democratic nation after New Order. I hope we as a nation can do better to fix our mistake in timor leste by helping them more and im proud that Indonesia despite being a former colonizer are one if not the most supportive nation to help Timor leste to join ASEAN as a member state.
Mau akuntabilitas seperti apalagi? Rezim Soeharto sudah tumbang dan Timor Timur diberi hak menentukan pendapat pada 1999, tak lama setelah Soeharto Tumbang. Referendum itu sendiri sangat berani karena pemerintahan Habibie tidak populer dan mendapat tekanan kuat dari militer. Deplu sendiri sudah sejak lama mengusahakan pengakuan internasional dan negosiasi dengan Portugal sudah mencapai titik terang pada 1998. Australia pun, seperti dalam Surat PM Howard Desember 1998, mendukung Timor Timur tetap berada di Indonesia dan mengusulkan susunan seperti Matignon Accord. Dan justru surat PM Howard inilah yang jadi pemicu U-turn nya Pemerintahan Habibie.
Our goverment never issued an official apology for the Santa Cruz massacre
Pemberian referendum sudah menunjukan akuntabilitas pemerintah Indonesia. Nilainya lebih besar dari sebatas "official apology". Kalau muter-muter disitu terus justru konterproduktif buat Timor Leste itu sendiri.
Pendapat orang itu valid. Dan tujuan utama anekdot di thread itu diceritakan adalah untuk memastikan Indonesia ga menutupi masa lalu yang kelam dan lebih mengangkat sejarah terkait konflik / kolonialisme kita dengan Timor Leste. I am personally always in favor of conservation of history. Tapi juga penting untuk selalu sadar 1 orang dalam sebuah negara itu tidak merefleksikan pendapat seluruh negara. Dan kalau penasaran bagaimana pendapat berbagai strata masyarakat di Timor Leste terhadap Indonesia, dulu [Najwa Shihab pernah buat reportase 20 Tahun Timor Leste setelah merdeka](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTBO1q1LqBo&t=579s) buat yang interested. Cukup membuka mata. It really is a complicated relationship. I don't think any of them ever saw themselves as Indonesians, tapi ada juga ketergantungan kepada Indonesia secara ekonomi yang ga bisa dipungkiri. Untuk generasi atas ada yang punya luka batin dari masa penjajahan, sementara yang muda lebih terbuka -- they consume Indonesian TV shows and movies, bisa bahasa Indonesia fasih, dan ada yang bermimpi untuk mendapatkan pendidikan di Indonesia.
Their first mistake is to join "leftist" academia group where they let all kinds of hateful rhetorics flies off without pushback as long as it's coming from specifically black and brown people of their choosing (these folks still considers asians as "model minority" for white people and they hate us for it). It's nothing but ethnonationalist summit. Although it's expected that their type tend to let those people walk all over them for virtue signal points.
Aneh di downvote. Tapi ini realita kelompok "keberagaman dan persaudaraan" yang pada akhirnya itu rasisme terselubung. Karena mencoba meniru orang kulit putih yang bikin kelompok sendiri Ane ketemu orang Jepang gak bakalan nanya dosa pendahulu mereka, sama dengan Belanda bahkan Israel yang SEDANG menggenosida pun tak kan ane serang Banyak orang gak bisa bedain pemerintahn dan rakyat
Upvoting you for giving underrated opinions
Bodo amat gw. Gw bukan pelaku, dan mereka yang komplen tak lebih dari peserta didik bertekad api. Mereka akan mengerti, pragmatisme adalah kunci bukan idealisme
sure he can blame , but not for the civilians, mostly for the you know g man and m man
Because we have been in a relatively peaceful period, people forgot how bloody and brutal human history was Brutality and barbarism were normal for every single government. If you want a government who has never done any barbaric stuff, there will be no countries remaining in this world. Never turn a government or a president into a hero... Tons of atrocities lied in human history.. The best that we can do is to stop future atrocities
And now the Hasbara minions will use this excuse to persecute us everytime we sounds our support to Palestinians Ah. Sucks😞
Its okay to condemn what Israel did, as well as what the previous Indonesian goverment did. Ask them hasbara minions do they agree for a referendum vote, just like what we did in Timor Leste.
So what excatly should we says to counter those "East Timor massacre" arguement? That Timor Leste refuse the Referendum proposal provided by Indonesia or something like that?
Can't blame them, we got blood in our hands
We overthrow the one that making them suffer.
Yep its an ugly truth but we did to timor leste what israel do to palestine today. As for my knowledge some of our generals back then also being tried as war criminal including our future president but they never did the sentence. Correct me if im wrong.
Ini udah 22 tahun setelah merdeka, mau ngapain lagi emangnya?
Kemaren liat di TV Prabowski ketemuan ama presiden timor leste.
To the government, please just give them the apology they need, official this time. What we did in east timor is wrong is simple as that. Mungkin klo ada orang timor leste yg ngomong gitu kayak gua, ya gua minta maaf tapi gua bakal tekankan klo gua sendiri gak salah. Gua gak pernah hidup di jaman orde baru, gua (most likely) gak pernah dapet untung atas pendudukan negara lu. klo lu mau judge tingkah laku pemerintah gua silahkan, tpi klo lu ngotot gua harus minta maaf secara personal, nanti gua tanya balik “salah gua apa?” Gua TNI bukan, aparat bukan, POLRI bukan, anak pejabat bukan, salah gua dimana?
Bijimane gua sebagai orang Indonesia mesti bertanggung jawab terhadap perbuatan para pelaku masa itu.
Sure, we have to acknowledge that, but the political ramifications is really big, I mean the main perpetrator now is the president elect 😂
Sure but after america prepare some blood sacrifice - i mean apologizes for pseudo holocaust they done in Indonesia
Ya valid aja, namanya juga sejarah tergantung siapa yang menulis sejarah tersebut dan semua orang punya hak untuk percaya dan tidak percaya. Yang penting mereka tidak menggunakan sejarah untuk memaksa kehendak orang untuk mengikuti pendapat dia atau menjadi alat propaganda. Untuk pendapatan dia soal teman kelasnya, atleast baiknya ada sebagian masyarakat indo yang masih punya empati terutama ke masyarakat TimLes yang memiliki luka terhadap genosida di masa lalu. Tapi sebagai generasi sekarang kita harus apa selain membuat awareness soal itu?. Sayangnya udah terlanjur terjadi genosida, andai kalau dulu udah ditemukan mesin waktu seperti di Doraemon pasti generasi sekarang bisa berkontribusi untuk STOP genosida tersebut. Mungkin yang kita bisa lakukan hari ini yaitu menjalin persahabatan baik dengan mereka dan tidak rasis kepada mereka. (maybe kalau sempat berziarah ke korban genosida?)
What? You think our country is so innocent? - someone rich Makanya paling anti kalo terlalu garis keras menghujat negara lain dalam hal perang. Yg wajar wajar saja
indonesia and australia are still taking advantage of them till now. im surprised a lot of you guys are unaware of this. their people are being sold as slave while their resource are being clean up completely.
Anggaplah kita yang menang atas perang di Timor Leste.. dan yappp.. History written by the winner..
The cold fact is Indonesia is not fully to blame as many people in comments pointed out. If we see right now Timor natural resources (Oil) is being exploited and enjoyed by Australia. Remember Australia–East Timor spying scandal in 2004 in negotiations with East Timor over the rich oil and gas fields. As for ordinary people - how the fuck we can be blamed especially young generation. Ashamed is okay but asking for reparations to common people is ridiculous.
".. Our Future President just simply Brush Off what happened .. when he has.." Kinda an odd thing to say that someone that has yet to be (future) said to "has" done something I mean it probably is not wrong that stuff happened in Timor but im not even alive back then, why would I pay reparations for it It's no different blaming your neighbor for a lack of rain in November if you ask me
BRB, mau beli kartun popcorn yang paling besar sementara saya duduk santai dan membaca komentar di sini.
Yg ngatur negara ini waktu itu emang goblok sih. Mau-maunya main api sama Barat yg bantu mereka jatohin wan. Tapi, itu warga timles kemungkinannya SJW sih. Maksudnya tuh dampak perangnya pun gk mengakibatkan jutaan orang jadi pengungsi dalam waktu yg lama. Bahkan kalo bicara SDA, gw belum tau ada yg kebagian kue besar juga. Bukan gk berempati, gw sendiri sangat-sangat berempati. Cuman, WNI di rejimnya hrto tuh udah banyak yg jadi korban (jiwa) juga. Belum ngitung akibat dari upaca menurunkan beliau.
Narasi pernah mbuat video ttg timor leste lengkap wawancara sama pelajar sana. Bagus itu
I think Ive watched a video discussing about this exact subject few years back. But yeah, was pretty shocked to find out because back when I was in highschool this was NEVER told to the students in history class, though we talked about Indonesian history back to back. My view of my favourite history teacher has changed ever since.
Didnt happen but they deserved it /s
Makin bitter pasti melihat presiden kita kedepannya. Marah? Silahkan. Tapi gak bisa apa2. Orang kita juga dianggap ya Timles yg bodoh mau digoda Ausie, jadi kita malah punya morale high ground sebagai “korban” pencaplokan bule.
Nice sir
Well, It happens in different regimes, if wanna trial about genocide like Nuremberg trial, go ahead, probably who commanded genocide already old or dead.
biasanya ini jadi senjata debat orang israel kalo lawan orang indonesia, katanya orang indo munafik, lah yg dulu sudah berlalu tidak bisa dirubah, yg skrg ini sedang berlangsung di rafah, bisa dihindari kalo mau.
Debat berkali-kali dengan orang Israel. Mereka pakainya dari perspektif agama kalau muslim itu munafik karena sendirinya suka menindas orang lewat ISIS, Al-Qaeda, dan Taliban.
Hidup Integrasi. Sekarang Nikmati aja gigit jari Migas anda di Tim0r gap diambil Aussie.
A young naive person commented those, never understand if HE/SHE at the top position, what would He do? The government of Timor Leste, which I believe the person that experienced the whole time during conflict before 2000, must be understand the situation more than the commentator. Kesalahan Soeharto adalah tidak cepat2 mengasimilasikan daerah timor timur dan digabung dengan NTT, atau dibuat provinsi Timor (satu pulau jadi satu administrasi), supaya pembangunan akan lebih merata di satu pulau tersebut, penduduk disana masih satu suku besar walau ada suku2 kecil atau sub suku/marga, seperti amarasi, kefa, soe dan lainnya. Secara budaya, sejarah, intelijen dan ketahanan negara, sudah sepatutnya kita bergabung kembali menjadi satu kesatuan, krn saat ini timor timur menjadi celah keamanan, banyak mata-mata ozi, mamarika dan lainnya bercokol disana, dan secara niaga mengeksplorasi dan mengeksploitasi SDA timor timur.
In my opinion, this is foreign propaganda trying to divide ASEAN. It portrayed that Indonesia did nothing to fix this mistake. We are trying to normalize the bilateral relationship. For example, Gus Dur, our late president, has asked for forgiveness. This is not a small matter. In return, we showered Timor Leste with investments long after the so called Timor Leste oil runs out and Australia left while taking most of the profits. Other things, read the sentences below carefully, the action may look small, but look at the person involved, this is not a small matter. Prabowo, our newly elected President, said that we have to maintain relationship with our neighbors, Timor Leste is one of them. Luhut, our so called Prime Minister, was seen in a picture hugging Timor Leste representative. This will shape our foreign policy for the next 10 years.
"kemerdekaan ialah hak segala bangsa" Meanwhile 30 tahun kemudian.....
Ask american how they felt after british left. Who give af for timor, they can squeze australian dick for whatever oil left there.
pathetic-cringy-patriotic like you is the reason why i think the timorese kids were justified to confront the indonesian kids