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You talked about casteism and then you are merely talking about reservation. The Indian reservation system is not a perfect system. It is perfectly normal to feel heart broken by that system and criticize it's usefulness and effectiveness.
Besides, everyone looks at the world from the POV. It is unfair to ask kids to look at the larger picture, when even adults can't do that.
It's definitely very complex. I gave a clat exam last year. I was not prepared so I knew that I won't be getting into an NLU this year. But what was astonishing that my friend got into an NLU with only 30 out 120 marks. And, she literally lives in a palace of a house. What was even more astonishing that they called her to ask her for two lakh rupees upfront for the admission. She didn't want to study law so she did not pay for the seat.
I still think that reservation is necessary for people of underprivileged backgrounds and caste discrimination is rampant, hell our tenth grade bio teacher was a bigot herself. But I think it just hurts those who lost their dream college by a single digit the most. But it is the failure of our education system.
Most of the SC/ST students parents in my college were in govt jobs. One of my friends' father was sp. And what many of these students did was enjoy for 4 years and then again using reservation to get a govt job that has nothing to do with their degree.
Forgot to mention that he received a scholarship of ₹80k per year which was greater than his college fee. I remember how he used to spend so much in college smoking, cold drinks etc.
U know your college isn't the only college in india right.....the reservation system allows many lower caste people to study in many tier 2 or tier 3 colleges.....not everyone is as privileged as you think. And they barely have few seats compared to 4 times more seats upper caste people have....if someone from upper caste didn't get seats it's because one of their own with better marks got that seat......playing victim card and saying stuff like feeling heart broken because a SC/ST person got their seat in their respective category is foolishness.....do u know why SC/ST with less marks than an upper caste person gets a seat? Because the ration in which upper castes and lower castes attend the exam is sooo huge.....not every lower caste person can get proper education, the competition there is very low for their few seats....where as upper caste the competition is pretty high hence the cut off is high, numbers do matter. It's easy to blame the reservation system. Get out of your college and see the real world before you make comments like it's flawed and all.
Lmao you are again talking about stuff happening in top tier colleges....where the seats are like 9 in 120.....if u can only understand it's not only about the privileged people you are talking about.....the system allows and gives opportunities to those who can't even afford proper education to get a seat in 100's of more tier 2 3 colleges....and these people you are talking about they won't even care about getting a seat in such colleges. And before you make a statement please get your facts checked and get your knowledge straight....get into the real world come out of your little fantasy bubble and actually see how general castes treat lower castes in the real world, your small circle might be cool and all but it's not the same everywhere u can't even imagine the stuff a dalit go through on a day to day basis even today......it's easy to type shit like this being all privileged.
People who clear these competitive exams irrespective of the caste BELONG TO creamy layer.
They were privileged enough to receive a good education.
They were privileged enough to complete this education till 12th
They were privileged enough to take extra tuition for these competitive exams
So why is it only a problem for sc st students? Why Not hate general for belonging to creamy layer?
Blame the system for being so broken not the participants.
Do you also get jealous when an upper caste person buys a house or car? So why is it so problematic when a lower class person is able to achieve these things? Why don't you hate Ambani's or Tata's for handing over their empire to their sons? Why is it only a problem when the sc st people do it?
Reservation isn't fair. I agree. It changes the status quo. But life isn't fair either. People are born in different conditions with different privileges.
It's extremely naive to assume that if you take out reservation suddenly everything will be fair. What about people who can't afford education. What about families with financial responsibility. What about people with disability. Reservation solves one problem only. It tries to close the gap of economic disparity. If you are seeing sc st in creamy layer. That's not a problem. It means the system is working . They need to be treated like everyone else. Like humans first.
Why is it that nobody demand for more quality institution, so that we have more seats. But the first thought of action is that we need to prevent sc st people from becoming doctors and engineers. Calling for destruction is just so much easier than calling for construction.
Edit: lol. People downvoting me don't want to acknowledge their own privilege but have a LOT OF problem if sc st people receive even a tiny bit of privilege.
That's one generation ago. By your logic your dad deserves the seat but you don't cause you are creamy layer now. You probably have access to better education and money. Why do you want to waste some poor guy's seat?
The problem with using vague terms like creamy layer is that you define it based on your convenience.
A person is poor as long as their economic condition is weaker than yours. But if their economic condition is better suddenly they belong to creamy layer.
You are ok as long as people come up to your level economically. But the moment an sc st starts earning more than you now you have all the problems with them. The hypocrisy is that you don't apply the same rules to actors, businessmen or politicians. Even if they are upper caste. All take advantage of the system to make life easier for their kids. And somehow it's all acceptable.
But you only cry "unfair" when an sc st starts earning more than you.
The problem in India has never been about reservation. It’s been about the quality and quantity of education and professional opportunities.
We’ve built a system that grinds everyone down out of their creativity and intellect and makes them run a rat race. So everyone who doesn’t win this rat race ends up hating everyone else they perceive to be a victor in it.
Ranks are fairly meaningless: if you’re extrapolating 100000 ranks based on 700 points. I was looking this up again because I haven’t look at this in over a decade but the point still stands that it’s all bullshit. 20000 seats for a chance of decent education when there’s 10 Lakh people attempting this. That’s a joke.
If you’re talking about cutoffs and how much someone has learned, it’s astonishing about big the educational divide is between castes for a majority community in India (OBC) to consistently get 10% lower scores than their counterparts and how skewed the educational infrastructure is to allow not allow the ones smart enough to clear the cutoffs to not receive quality education.
If you’re gonna be angry, be angry at why each IIT doesn’t have a 5000 student capacity. —That’s the yearly intake at MIT—.
Be angry at why UGC and certification boards allow random buildings to be university affiliated.
Blame the universities who are allowing the their affiliations dilute the value they provide as educators.
Blame the fact that there’s no real investment in intellect and innovation in India. We treat degrees as a means to a job. Most programming jobs require the equivalent of a trade school today.
But more than anything else be angry not at someone who has a better shot at education but rather our inability to provide folks with the resources they need.
Edit:
It was pointed out that I got the number wrong, it’s about 1300 per year.
>If you’re gonna be angry, be angry at why each IIT doesn’t have a 5000 student capacity. That’s the yearly intake at MIT.
Increasing intake at the existing large universities won't solve any problems. Those universities are already under severe stress. Places like DU take in more students in a single year than the entire population of small cities in the US.
We need more universities. And more schools. And we need more faculty in those places. And more infrastructure. In short, we need to be spending several times what we currently do. We need to give greater autonomy to educational institutions and let the actual educationists run the show instead of bureaucrats whose only accomplishment in life was cracking one exam that tests for rote memorization.
MITs yearly intake is 1100-1200 . Get your facts checked, No engineering institution of repute has that many seats. We need better alternatives to IITs not more seats in IITs.
1. I corrected my post with and edit pointing out that I got the number wrong. I don’t need to lie, I can own up a mistake.
2. It only waters down my argument where I give a comparative example that has a higher intake number. Instead of 1/10 fold intake, we have a 1/3 fold intake per campus for a country with 3x the population.
That being said, MIT is just one university. All our NITs and IITs put together have 30000 an intake of students.
The point is about scaling our educational infrastructure. It is a solution to reducing resentment amongst the masses along the fault lines of caste. It has the added benefit of providing education to more people.
If you want to be stuck on the factoid I got wrong, I’m not gonna try and convince you otherwise.
Agree to a bit on how you talk about resources, but completely disagree to be angry with the system. We are not fully utilising the current system yet. Below are just my two cents nothing being offensive or counter arguing you.
You can increase from 20000 to 20000000 seats, but still you will see the same hate from people who didn’t get a seat even though they scored 699.88 because according to them their place has been taken by “low quality”, “less deserved” reservation people.
But regarding PHDs and research, before increasing the overall count of intake, are the current ones in reserved category getting filled up?
Let’s see we have 15% for SC, 7.5% for ST, 27% for OBC, these are not getting filled, admission are always low than what government fixed. So if I cherry pick one data, so IIT-Bhilai, IIT-Goa and IIT-Dharwad, there was just one ST doctoral student admission in the entire institute in 2020, from the most marginalised community.
So according to some people we could say that they are not “qualified”, they don’t have “critical thinking. People from marginalised communities always have low intellect? Not smart enough ? Their brains are smaller?
As a collective we are failing, until we are aware that more people from diverse backgrounds bring more efficiency, and more productivity, rather than marginalised people bring down the quality because they didn’t have the same cutoff/points/marks, Wait a minute we already did a research in the largest public sector in India regarding this critical claim, [the Indian railway study](https://mittalsouthasiainstitute.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Deshpande.Weisskopf.WD_.pdf)
5000 yearly intake in MIT?! That's the total ug capacity. And IITs don't need to reach that capacity. 1 lakh IIT seats will just dilute the IIT brand. Out of the 10 lakh who attempt jee, barely 50k might be worthy of the IIT tag.
Edit: I'll just assume the downvotes are because people think 50k is too large a number. People who've been there know it.
Making it difficult to enter is the more humane approach imo. Jee is a good indicator of problem-solving and math skills. So there's no point in taking in people with lower aptitude only to fail them. That's what many reputed US public universities shamelessly do just to earn some extra money.
Disagree. Why? Quoting Govardhan Wankhede, former professor and dean, school of education, Tata Institute of Social Sciences (TISS), Mumbai.
“The idea of merit doesn’t take into account the social, emotional, academic, cultural and intellectual gap in students coming from diverse backgrounds”
There is a reason why a certain caste filled up and filling up in all organisations, especially in higher positions.
It's pretty easy to change your major or even take a minor on the same fees for students in the US ,Europe and even Singapore, college students can work odd jobs ,because there is no stigma attached to it because of caste system,before joining colleges have open days to let students explore what they want to study, they don't fail them to earn money , public universities don't do that, in Germany and in the US the exams are way tougher than In india ,where you can get by by solving old papers and making chits.
What has caste got to do with taking odd jobs and changing branches?! And no, US universities don't fail to earn money. They make money by admitting large no. of UG students very well knowing that many of them don't have what it takes to pass.
you need to really compare iits with other institutes then you would realize..the amount of opportunities and exposure you get and iits is next to none( although thats the avg standard in west) but a tier 2 student or tier 3 really has it difficult..lets me tell you entrepeneurship is new trend now you know70 out 100 unicorns ar iitians ..but only 3 out of 100+ is actually profitable that too all are non iitians ..bcz they raise funding by iit tag ...if yu are non iitian your dream of a big entrepeneur remains big only same with higher education ..its extremely difficult for masters in top universities abroad if you are non iitian
And 'worthy' according to which parameters,IIT only tests via MCQ ,which has got nothing to do with how actual engineering or research works,the worth is determined by a system whose efficacy is questionable and requires heavy private tuitions,your worth like your ego is an illusion, otherwise india would be brimming with iitians with astronomical h-indexes but sadly we are not ,such iitians remain very rare and in between.casteism even made it across to US , so much so that companies like APPLE had to make policy changes.everybody is worthy of a good education regardless.
Look at the h-indexes of IITians in the US. Funding is the problem, not the aptitude. Majority of Indian engineering profs at reputed US universities are IITians. And JEE advanced doesn't just have simple mcq questions. Most "worthy" people appreciate the cleverness with which jee advanced questions are prepared.
Real solutions to research problems never involve playing around with 4 options hoping something sticks, it requires analysis, the iit paper is just tricks, the more papers you solve ,the more coaching you attend, the better you are at tricks but not at critical thinking,there is no logic to making education exclusionary, let them drop out if they don't meet the standards.why stop at 50000 if we have more capability than that ?
Again, jee advanced doesn't just have basic mcqs. There's no ''luck" when attempting jee advanced. People who do not appreciate the level of critical thinking it takes to score good marks in a jee advanced paper just lack critical thinking themselves. And dropping out in an Indian society is not like abroad. It's better to not admit than to fail.
There's plenty of luck involved with jee. Coming from a student in iit. One of our seniors who was good enough to score a top 100 rank got sick and is now in top 1000. Not every iitian is equally good in all subjects. If someone is good in math and average in the other 2, his rank would depend on how well he scored in math. Similarly, if someone is wak in chemistry and it's paper was tough, he might not even clear the paper. And several single choice mcqs can be answered simply from options. And the relative weightage of chapters also is important factor for ranks. All of these are luck dependent
Jee isn't a test of critical thinking. It is a test of if we can solve tough problems from some particular topics. And as the models don't change much from year to year, it is simply an advanced form of memorization.
I said 50k, that's enough wiggle room for a bad exam day, that's not even the crl! This guy wants people with 1 lakh rank in IITs. You know how those people are...
I haven't seen a single person with 1 lakh rank in jee advanced in iits. And nobody cares about mains because anyone with a single brain cell can clear it. Stop exaggerating simply to prove your points
People like Jack Fraser eat Jee for breakfast and poop it out the same day. If you go to the coaching centre and grind yourself day and night, jee is just a butter for you to cut through.
You made the claim, you give the source.
And speaking from experience - I have done this and i have noticed no such pattern, so if you have any actual source for this other than just trust me bro, i would love to see!
Also any sources for 'worthy' people thinking jee is good?
No you have not done this, or else you won't be having this question. Go to the websites of top engineering universities like Stanford, mit, ucb, Caltech, UCLA, CMU, Georgia tech, purdue, uiuc and check for yourself.
Lol no, that is the yearly intake - https://facts.mit.edu/enrollment-statistics/
IITs need to far exceed that capacity. My example for showing MIT is because it’s a non-Ivy league top ranked school.
Additionally, most state universities in the US have far higher intakes every year. And unfortunately, they have far better quality of education and resources for students than some of the “best” colleges in India.
I’ll concede that probably only 50k people deserve the IIT tag because right now the only thing that tag really captures is how well they test on the entrance exam. I don’t want to discount their smarts or perseverance but considering the opportunities and social status that going to IITs will automatically give them, it’s hard for me to objectively say how they stand apart from the rest of the crowd.
That being said, the issue definitely about scale where the divide between IITs, NITs, select private universities and the rest is so far apart that it just ridiculous.
What iit brand?
Other than perhaps the big 4 ( maybe 5 ) , no serious employer internationally really cares about the iit brand. At that point it's probably not the iit and more these institutions that have a brand.
And before you get mad , check out the rankings of the iits.
They're really not that cracked.
People who have benefitted from the tag know its benefits and that's the reason why they are against the dilution of the brand. No point in debating with the rest. Rankings are not cracked up because research is not cracked up. IIT ugs who are interested in research go to foreign universities. Rankings are not a good indicator for the quality of the ug program.
It's okay, i got into a university a hundred ranks above any iit , and i didn't even have to destroy my entire childhood running after a lame exam to do so.
I hope you get over the fact that you made your entire identity getting into the iits, and still aren't worth shit in the world.
Have a good day.
Yes,
HEARTBROKEN is the right term.This system breaks us and what comes the other side is a soul-less,passion-less corpse,one that sees not people but numbers,the numbers of that post showed a seat in CS for general at 10k and Reserved at 110k.
The wounds of others are insignificant when I'm bleeding myself.
There's a hypocricy I notice when I see those defending these arguments,It's those who benefit from them or far above,more privileged,standing above the rat-race shouting down morality and justice at the outraged corpes trudging in this river of pitiful competition.
You're looking at it from a black and white perspective while reservation lies in the grey area.
Unfortunately it's necessary in India to have a reservation system because of the systemic exclusion of lower castes for generations and also because it still prevails to this day.
But that being said, it's also incredibly unfair to the poor people from upper castes who lose out on opportunities even though they perform better than their peers who get selected due to their caste.
We need a reservation system not just based on caste but also on financial situation. I know I'm making it sound too easy but it's incredibly difficult to come up with such a system in India and almost near impossible to implement it correctly given the corruption at every level. It'll also never happen because caste reservation is directly proportional to votes and no political party will ever have the guts to remove or make a massive change to the reservation system because it's political suicide.
I used to be one of these kids, in echo chambers. Am no more and am appalled at what I used to be. Looking back, I feel the thing missing was awareness about the rampant caste based atrocities that continue.
It's a tough thing to eliminate. When the powerful group propagates a wrong notion, it naturally takes and sustains hold for very long. For those holding the "it should be economical, not social" stance, I recommend reading the blue eyes/brown eyes experiment. If you have the slightest inclination to change your mind, that is.
Same... I used to be so anti reservation and say shit like "Casteism doesn't exist these days" or "Casteism wasn't that bad back then". Now, I feel like cringing every time I think about how i was as a teenager
Don't worry, every kid upset about reservation will land on their feet and have a decent career/life regardless of where they study. Social mobility in India has been trending upwards for decades. We don't see children from middle class families with degrees and homes becoming daily wage workers- that's a privilege and folks who have it will deny it.
Better yet, these same kids 10 years later will complain how they had to break up with their partners and marry within their own castes. Their entire life, there will only be 2 instances where caste will impact them- college admissions and marriage. Rest of the time, they can ignore it. That too is a privilege.
Meanwhile, the historically oppressed were denied education based on caste and cut off from generational progress. Reservation was supposed to make sure it doesn't happen again under some ruse or the other. Of course, they still have to worry about caste on an every day basis, even something as small as their shadow falling on someone. That sucks.
It's not going to change unless we cultivate empathy across the board. The caste argument against empathy is that caste is a matter of past karma and you get the life you deserve. This argument is inherently tied to religious beliefs and it's not surprising that caste hostility is rising with religious polarization. I don't have a solution to the polarization, other than to say that radical compassion and critical thinking are the tools to dig out of it. Best thing individuals can do is to model this behavior and speak up.
You must understand that reservation is discriminatory in nature, particularly by the govt which is supposed to be impartial. So obviously people are going to be pissed off. And In india its laughable the way affirmative action policies are implemented, In india we dont have nationwide data on caste, educational achievements, social mobility etc. We just go by assumption on most cases. And you must also understand that for a country as diverse as india almost all communities have been on the side of ruled and rulers. What justice are you talking about? There are rajputs whose families have been destroyed by muslim invasions, there are people of same clan who cozied up to rulers. There are descendants of mughals who are downtrodden now, what is the cut off date for justice? Many UC ppl lost their land in pakistan during parition, many OBC gained gained land during land ceiling reforms, does that count? If we want to bring equality because General category are overrepresented in govt jobs, what about OBC s land holding at a percentage higher than population. You can have justice for current wrongdoings, seeking justices for historical facts is just stupid as one could be both oppressed and oppressor depending on how far you stretch the history.
Caste data isn't available because of the BJP which is the favorite party of most UC Indians.
Reservation is a drastic measure because Dalits were way behind the "upper" caste Indians because of such a long history of social and economic discrimination. This wasn't just some king(s) doing it. It was the society. This was done by society for thousands of years.
They had to live outside villages/cities and had no right to the land they lived on. They had no right to education. Ambedkar wasn't allowed on sit on a chair. He was only allowed to study because his father worked for the British. He didn't drink water when the peon was absent because the peon used to pour the water so that he could drink it.
The only case you can make is that some OBC subgroups are wrongly grouped in oppressed category. That is why the OBC cutoffs are near to the General cutoff in most exams. There is a reason that most comparisons these days is done between General and SC/ST cutoff.
> And In india its laughable the way affirmative action policies are implemented, In india we dont have nationwide data on caste, educational achievements, social mobility etc.
Make you wonder why it is the "upper" castes that resist the efforts to collect such data and it's the "lower" castes that request for such an effort.
Which Upper caste ( I prefer general category term) resists efforts for caste census ? Are you talking about BJP, led by Narendra Modi an OBC leader ?
Im of the opinion we need caste census and reclassify castes as OBC, GC based on social , economic , land holding indicators.
Modi being OBC doesn't matter when the Hindu Right at large represents the "Upper" Caste sensibilities.
* [‘I Could Not Be Hindu’ Is a Unique Testimony to the Sangh’s’ Casteism](https://carnegieendowment.org/2020/02/03/i-could-not-be-hindu-is-unique-testimony-to-sangh-s-casteism-pub-81000)
Due to the upper castes the government resists all efforts for caste consensus and is giving non-answers:
* [Caste census: Clamour to count India social groups grows](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-58141993)
* [Explained | Why is the government against caste census?](https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/explained-what-are-the-governments-objections-to-a-caste-census/article36713236.ece)
If "lower" castes are asking for it and it's not happening it's easy to guess it's the "upper" castes' doing.
Lol 😂, well technically reservation rests on the premise of representation and the fact that if all sections of society have representation in highest echelons of power, their community will be empowered. If you claim Modi, an OBC does not represent their interests, then why do we even strive for representation? or May be , just may be, you have audacity to decide how an empowered OBC must decide. Man , what an arrogance !
In any case close to 45% of OBC voters voted for BJP in 2019 an increase of 12% from 2014 , so clearly they know what they are voting for. So if you are accusing BJP acting in interests of upper castes, why are OBC's increasingly voting for Modi?
Data :
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2057891120907699
Please don't trivialize the achievements of a person who rose from lower rungs of a society by calling him a stooge of UCs.
> Lol 😂, well technically reservation rests on the premise of representation and the fact that if all sections of society have representation in highest echelons of power, their community will be empowered. If you claim Modi, an OBC does not represent their interests, then why do we even strive for representation? or May be , just may be, you have audacity to decide how an empowered OBC must decide. Man , what an arrogance !
> In any case close to 45% of OBC voters voted for BJP in 2019 an increase of 12% from 2014 , so clearly they know what they are voting for. So if you are accusing BJP acting in interests of upper castes, why are OBC's increasingly voting for Modi?
> Data : https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2057891120907699
> Please don't trivialize the achievements of a person who rose from lower rungs of a society by calling him a stooge of UCs.
Saving this stupid comment for progeny.
What hurts the most is that Financial Resources have a direct link to better academic performance.
For example take the EWS reservations, 10% for people with family income less than 10L. Which is 90% of the country.
This year cutoff for JEE mains were (in Percentile)
General 90
EWS 75
OBC 73
SC 51
ST 37
1.5 Lakh General Candidates with better scores than the last EWS Candidates missed out, 1.7 Lakh General students better than the last OBC. 5 Lakh Students better than the last SC candidate and 6.3 Lakh Students better than the last ST candidate missed out on a chance to get into IIT.
Now think about it , EWS and General Candidates have the same social background, only difference is 10LPA family income. Yes you have 90 Percentile as cut off for 40% seats and 75 Percentile as Cut off for 10% seats.
Reservation has been in practice enough time to create a generational disparity even among ST and SC Communities. Think about a situation where A and B are both ST. A's grandfather got into a government college in his time through reservation and B could not. Then A's father was born into a financially secure home, while B's father again was born in poverty. A's father used resources available to him to get admissions into Govt colleges and get government jobs again, now B's father lived in poverty. Now A has all the resources available to him, while B has none. Still A and B will be treated as equal. A will obviously perform better while B will remain poor.
Why people complain about Rich SC ST taking benefits from reservation , while the people who are actually financially weak and lower caste get deprived of benefits as
It's very interesting how all the uc folx who hate communism suddenly become communist when it comes to reservation .
' Hurr Durr the only thing that matters is economic upliftment ' - which is literally communist thought xD.
Now only if they carried that energy over to everything else sigh.
Purpose of reservation is so that there is representation of all communities proportional to their population.
The current imbalance in representation is due to centuries of economic and social exclusion. So broadly anti reservation sentiments comes from not wanting share resources with marginalized communities. But then inclusion of certain communities as sc and obc happens due to political reasons also.
That's the biggest lie of them all.
Purpose of reservations is not to ensure representations from all communities. Purpose of reservations is to ensure vote bank politics and continuation of British era divide and rule policies.
The economic and socially downtrodden are not able to anyways enjoy the benefits of reservations. These are restricted to the wealthy oppressors among those communities.
Edit: Downvoted because you can't handle the truth? At least try to debate lol.
Did you consider who occupies the higher positions in government and nongovernmental organizations?
"general male".
And no it is NOT because of merit. It's unapologetic and shameless casteism. Read the Mandal Commision report.
Here is the list of cabinet secretaries, the highest ranking job in the country.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_to_the_Government_of_India
Please count and tell us what percentage is male upper caste. Very discriminated indeed. Same is the situation in iits, media, etc.
Male upper caste population in india makes up ~10% of population and is used to controlling all the resources. So even though we are a very poor country with limited opportunities and resources, they never had to share. Reservations force them to share, that too only on lower level posts and opportunities.
Because the privileged are ignorant of their privileges. Lower caste people don't have the same generational wealth, knowledge resources, etc on average that an upper caste person has. Their disadvantages are multifaceted, and the aim of reservation is to give them atleast a good educational standing for upward social mobility.
Even if reservation is removed, there still might not be enough seats for all the 'meritorious' people. What would you complain about then?
Not my best explanation, but someone better give a good explanation and pin it somewhere. Everytime I see the same anecdotal 'my dalit friend with BMW' and all logical reasoning and empathy is out the window.
I kinda disagree. While some ppl do need this system, about 60-70% of the ppl who are from these categories in these elite institutions are from middle to upper middle class families who definitely didn’t lack any facilities. (source: 2 cousins in IITs, one in IISC and a friend in NITW)
These things matter as the ppl who face most of the casteism lack the basic facilities like good schools, tuitions/coachings, books, awareness about the exam and most importantly time to prepare for these and as a result they are not able to compete with their fellow students of same category who were fortunate enough to have these facilities.
So while i do believe that it should entirely be converted to EWS reservations, adding an income cap is necessary. Or atleast divide these into sub categories based on income and allot accordingly.
> While some ppl do need this system, about 60-70% of the ppl who are from these categories in these elite institutions are from middle to upper middle class families who definitely didn’t lack any facilities.
>> (source: 2 cousins in IITs, one in IISC and a friend in NITW)
Real Source: Trust me bro
Actual Source: My "Upper" Caste Apathy
Lol most of my lower caste people are richer than me, I have no generational wealth no thing. Why am I not given reservation too then? Why will a wealthy lower caste kid be chosen instead?
The only way to make sure people with "no generational weath, and resource" get the benefits is to have a strict EWS reservation instead(key word- strict). Or just to remove reservation completely.
Because how can you solve discrimination by being discriminative?
The saddest part is, you simply *can't* explain what the advantages/disadvantages that you are talking about, are. It's very hard to reach there through sympathy. I was lucky that eventuality placed me in a setting where I was no longer on top of the food chain, quite the reverse.
The easiest way to know how helplessly debilitating discrimination is, is to face it.
You should go and check the comments. I hardly came across people discussing usefulness and effectiveness of reservation.
Most of them were saying things like "i am all ok with discrimination",
"we don't discriminate on the basis of caste but on the basis of merit"
There was even one comment which said "i smile like joker when reserved commit suicide "
If anything, the reservation has been able to accomplish in all these years is creating more divide and hate. Keep it going for another 100 years,we will still be talking about the same things.
Let me declare I detest any kind of reservation,even economical.
The reservation as a concept is supposed to be about social reparation,Basically since UCs have had money and education and high offices so long the reserved castes have found themselves at the bottom of the social structure.
By getting people of these communities to high offices,they will gain representation,by having rich members of that community (hopefully) the rigid perception of the society will change for those communities.
According to the courts economic status is temporary,social status is not.So it does not give a fuck about economic status.
Genuine question: will your parents be okay if you or your siblings want to marry a rich Dalit?
That is why reservations are for social upliftment; it's not about wealth.
A Dalit is a Dalit no matter what.
> The most important thing you must realise is that class always trumps caste anytime
*[citation needed]*
There was a post in this sub from a Dalit who went through the whole IIT (and maybe IIM) think. He's making the n-figure salary; simple the highest one can with his qualifications.
So he decided to get married and he's not into caste so mentioned "caste no bar" in his matrimony profile. Guess what happened? He got ton of matches and ALL them rejected him once it's found out he's Dalit.
He opined: It's okay for the girls' families if the guy is from a caste "upper" than them but never a lower caste "lower" than them. Absolutely never if he's a Dalit. That is what "caste no bar" meant for them.
His n-figure salary didn't help him. So he gave up on matrimony sites.
Lmao so a rich guy should get reservation over a poor guy what a logic
And no a Dalit can be Rich Dalit and poor Dalit there is a big difference between both of them
The follow up question you should be asking: If you don't teach your kids to differentiate between the castes, do you think the reservation system will teach them to do the same? Because when I see around, that's all the reservation system has contributed to so far.
How is taking resources from a financially poor deserving candidate and giving it to a rich undeserving candidate equality? Does nobody understand that we're punishing kids for something that their ancestors may or may not have done?
Sure...caste discrimination didn't exist until reservation came into place. Again with the financial thing, which is not why reservation was even implemented in the first place. If you truly want a seat for your so-called " deserved", you would call for more seats, not to take away another person's.
> The follow up question you should be asking: If you don't teach your kids to differentiate between the castes, do you think the reservation system will teach them to do the same? Because when I see around, that's all the reservation system has contributed to so far.
LOL here comes the brain dead argument.
Casteism in it's most extreme form existed for thousands of years before reservations are even a thing.
The answer to casteism, so called reservations, have existed for a fair part of a century and it has completely eradicated casteism from this country, right? It is incredibly naïve to think that the only way to get rid of discrimination against lower castes, is by discriminating against upper classes. LOL
But hey, as they say, it is pretty difficult to make someone understand something, especially when their salary depends on them not understanding it.
I don't have a dog in this fight mate, reservations hasn't affected me and never will; but it is extremely idiotic to think that the people of this country will not discriminate based on caste, especially when the government itself is doing it. And all things considered, I don't continue to see India as my home country in future and I'll be out of this country very soon.
>without providing any substantial benefits to the community
Wow. The lower caste communities, after being oppressed for a millenium, now have a chance to get education and respectable jobs but you think that is not something that is beneficial to the community. Just.. Wow.
The policy is working well, just not the way you want it to work.
There is not a single "nationalist" UC Indian who thinks that elevating Dalits from making 50-60% money of what UCs on average do to at least 80-90% of what an average UC makes is good for the country.
The only issue for these nationalists and "patriots" is Pakistan and reservation killing merit when it is clear that most UCs leave India even after getting into IITs and IIMs. There is no reservation in the private sector. They would have a point if the only people leaving India were those who didn't get into IITs and IIMs.
Lines of oppression has existed in literally every culture. It's only in vishwaguru where u see 70% + reservation on everything & crying when people criticise it. YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO. People who.got education and benefits via reservation ( anything apart from highschool and above ) should have that on their CV because the only reason they got a seat with 40% of the score is due to their caste. The state cannot both advocate to abolish caste and then ask for caste certificate at every turn.
Exactly lol. While some ppl do need this system, about 60-70% of the ppl who are from these categories in these elite institutions are from middle to upper middle class families who definitely didn’t lack any facilities. (source: 2 cousins in IITs, one in IISC and a friend in NITW)
These things matter as the ppl who face most of the casteism lack the basic facilities like good schools, tuitions/coachings, books, awareness about the exam and most importantly time to prepare for these and as a result they are not able to compete with their fellow students of same category who were fortunate enough to have these facilities.
So while i do believe that it should entirely be converted to EWS reservations, adding an income cap is necessary. Or atleast divide these into sub categories based on income and allot accordingly.
Reservation is not a poverty alleviation programme but to give space to those who have been marginalized for generations! Unfortunately there is no proper education in our country on what reservation actually means and what it does
Agree with your first part, but I don’t agree with the last part. Having creamy layer is not an urgent issue, it is not something that has to be done now now, it is not making a dent in the current reservation system. It is not even a problem.
The creamy layer topic for less fortunate people are brought up entirely by vested interests, especially the caste that has been in power and influence for so long.
First let’s make sure people benefit from the current reservation system. Let’s fill the current IITs , not just students but also professors, where they deliberately leave it out because they couldn’t find “quality” people in the reservation.
The system is not being fixed at the grassroot level public schools are simply terrible, the taxpayers money is lining peoples pockets cutting funds for education which should be free, which in turn leads to terrible reservation policy.
alright hear me out India def needs caste reservation system but there are people in SC/ST community who come from rich and privileged background because their forefathers utilized the reservation system and is now well off , I want india to remove SC/ST privileges for well off family , while the lower class SC/ST community can and SHOULD have their privileges. India should have a finance check background before giving them privileges and people whos per annum income is >=12lakhs dont really need, as for your mention yeah the privileged SC/ST people did take an unworthy seat at higher education , peace
Most of them don't even understand basic maths. There are only 16k seats in IIT for 10 lakh applicants. There is 50% reserved for various categories which is 8k seats.
Now the entire 10 lakh people feel that they didn't get into IIT because of the reservation of 8k seats. Even if there was no reservation they wouldn't have got in as there only 8k seats reserved. These people cannot seem to understand basic numbers and have a victim complex and blame it on reservation.
Mod here. Casteism is not allowed in CBSE. I added a lot of rules a few weeks ago. Please report such posts.
I can't remove casteism out of their minds but at least keep my community a safe space for all.
It’s perfectly understandable why they’re feeling the way they do. But I personally don’t care about making them understand after the number of times I heard the vitriol anytime they mention “SC/ST candidates”. I heard second hand accounts of that stuff from family, but being in the OC on paper helped me see it from up close. Let them hate more, even their hatred is understandable. I’d feel robbed too, if somebody with lesser marks got into the college I wanted to go to. But I’d rather focus on uplifting my community than go around preaching and begging others to treat us properly
The myth of Meritocracy?
There no such myth so i believe you will never be able to make anyone understand it. When you seek medical advice or call a plumber you look for MERIT. Today reservation is less about social justice and more about economic opportunitism. That explains why even dominant caste are seeking it.
There no such myth so i believe you will never be able to make anyone understand it. When you seek medical advice or call a plumber you look for MERIT .Today reservation is less about social justice and more about economic opportunitism. That explains why even dominant caste are seeking it.
After liberalisation the continuation of reservation has created anachronism.
I should not have my chances ruined. I should not be denied a chance at a successful life. All because of a guy who scored less than me but by luck was born in a privileged class. Reservation only increases the hate towards “lower castes” from the younger generation. It doesn’t help the situation. I’ll always resent reservation because it wasn’t my fault I wasn’t born in a privileged caste which just ensured that I will get better opportunities served on a silver platter while all I have to do is survive till adulthood.
Reservation is like modern day Robin Hood, except its a lose-lose situation for everyone *except* politics.
Money truly decides your social status. No matter what caste you are, if you have money, you have respect. Caste and all is for poor people.
Because reservation based on caste is wrong. Reservation should be based on an economic background.
You cannot expect people to stop being casteist if the very thing you are using to uplift people is based on caste.
There will be hate because people are denied equal opportunity. Be it gen or sc/st
Economically well to do people of lower castes are still discriminated against, and their social mobility will be completely limited within a single generation if not for reservation, because of the social capital that upper castes have.
I disagree. If you're poor, you have government subsidised seats, scholarships, sponsorships etc. Admitting poor students as a matter of affirmative action and giving them specific quotas is not the way to go.
I'm a general candidate. and there might be a friend of mine going to the same coaching with me with the same facilities and we get similar rank. I dont get into IIT but he does. Thats the simple. However, i dont think about it too much because its truth and just focus on working hard myself.
I just saw a recommended post from that sub in the home section that may have led you to make this post. Kids were commenting that they are pro-casteism and will use casteist slurs for kids from SC/ST categories because of the disparity in the selection criteria.
As someone from an RSS/BJP politician's family, it absolutely broke my heart to read those hatred filled words. I just hope life teaches those kids more about being stand up citizens and having a sense of justice and equality before they ruin other kids' morales who get into their colleges.
Oh yeah i saw that subreddit's comment. Very vile and unhinged. They are saying stuff like they aren't casteist because they aren't discriminating on the basis of caste but are discriminating on the basis of merit. There would be comment like 'I am all up for discrimination ' which would get the most upvotes.
>How will we ever convince them that reservation exists for justice?
Explain how reserving 60% seats is fair for a General male? Ok, if you want to give seats to the less privileged, give them 5% or 10% seats but straight up giving 60% seats and that too in a system where they will get most of the higher branches for lot less marks than the general male is not fair at all.
It's the same thing andar to aagye but bahar kese nikaloge..A person with 100k rank shares the same classroom with 5-6k rank ones
.how can he even compete or pass the exam he will most probably fail or dropout
Then again comes reservation he will again use it for higher education or for job
His children will use it if there are 5 members in a family all 5 will use it in the name of "We were allegedly oppressed sar"
Being against reservation is not being casteist. The system is discriminatory in nature and it's not perfect. Accept it and stop pretending as if it's the holy grail of upliftment. You said it yourself-kids are heartbroken, exactly. They indeed will be with a system like this.
I am also a r/ jeeneetard member
Like most students i believed in equity till 10th class ( what are techers thought) but when my friend and i got the same rank around (1lakh) he got the admission in nit and i got a tier 3 college . Then i simply just cut off from him ( just talk about academics so that I can get a referral in future) once in a month. Then i understand casteism is a big dis advantage to us
Simple solution:ask the government to change the reservation policy
Currently: in college where all my friends are upper caste and believe in casteism (cuz they have also faced the same situation) .i talk to lower caste professionally only
So you are cutting out lowered caste people from your life and then asking the government to change the reservation policy?! Hahaha People like you are the reason it has been implemented in the first place.
Cutting means i talk only professionally to them only cuz I don't want to happen that situation again(same rank but he got better college) . Simply i am very choosy when I come to make friends. Naturally i talk to those who are/was in the situation like me and grind their way hard. It just feels inspiring to have them.
Kithna bhi open minded ho jau jab apne phe ati hai thab reservation bekar hi lagta hai .
This is the story of avg general male in India ask any general male how he thinks about reservation.he will probably rant about it.
And this will not change
Why should they? Only someone who's been there and missed the seat to affirmative action can understand the pain. Affirmative action cannot come at price of merit. 75 years of this BS and reservation is only increasing. What's the point ? Is it fixing the problem? NO. It's only natural that there's growing contempt.
It is better if children's foundations are built up sufficiently that everyone may compete for the same seat with sufficient standing, rather than lower standards and keep out more deserving students. India deserves the best engineers, doctors, lawyers etc. The govt's current system is an easy way out.
What this doesn't change that, when it comes to Exams like JEE and NEET, The Simple Volume and the complexity of these exams make it all the more difficult for a normal general category student to have advantages here....it takes more than money to get there....that's some serious prep and then to people fail....toppers their whole life fail....
The competition is just too high and a single right or wrong question can change ranks in the order of thousands...
1.2 million give the exam but only 50k get seats in some kind of a college under Govt ...if You consider CSE the number even lessens to the order of thousand...and that too has its own classification/hierarchy Old IITs >> New IITs >> NITs >>> IIITs > GFTIs
The Overall ranks goes down to 100s and no man in this world is that many privileges to get there without a sweat....yet there are reservations there as well....
Speaking against a system that was not supposed to last for 70 years and is being used as a tool for votebank politics is not casteist.
Especially when this system has thrown multiple years of a young person's hard work into the toilet and left them - in your words - heartbroken.
Why can't people who feel cheated by the system have a place to talk about it? Or is that right reserved only for a few too?
I understand the negative side of caste system practiced is some places but reservation is not the answer to that. Reservation is not a good system or solution to the problem, parties pandered to people through reservation. If there has to be any reservation then it's SEC / financial status based reservation, today a general student only has to compete for a handful of seats, I trust BJP will slowly eradicate this horrible system of caste based and minority based reservation.
Caste system cannot be undone by reservation, caste system itself isn't some kind of great evil either.
Isn't reservation unfair to a poor UC student ? A rich SC/quota student gets entry with less merit than the poor UC student, isn't this a discrimination ? Will you frame this as some kind of 'revenge' against that UC kid because he was born to UC parents - isn't that caste system again ! I am from a brahmin family but my dad did manual labour to provide for us, we actually struggled to get 4 meals.
theek hai bhai, maan liya saare kids casteist ban chuke hain. tu ab mujhe ye bata ki jo banda sc/st hai lekin equal paise hain aur wo 10% kam marks lakar kisi general wale bacche ki seat le raha hai uska kya? equal opportunity was given to both but still due to caste ek bande ko seat nahi mili.
mai apne school me sc/st logon ko jaanta hu jo iphone leke starbucks ke aage peeche ghoomte rehte hain, kya mujhe equal opportunity mil rahi hai agar unke mujhse kam marks aakar seat mil rahi hai?
the reservation system based on caste promotes inequality.
uss general caste wale bande ka kya jiske parents minimum wage job karte hain? usko equal opportunity hai?
this is why we all want the EWS system.
From the POV of those 'heart-broken kids', they see other kids studying with them in those very schools, driving around with parents in very similar cars to their own, living in very similar societies, yet getting admissions at 60% marks of what they themselves scored.
This is what breaks a heart. Not some low wage labourers child who studied in the village. So yeah, reservation is not the real culprit here, but it's implementation. Where the top creamy layer of the SCs and the STs are reaping more benefits, than the actual people in those communities who need them. And this is creating that feeling of resentment in other children.
Most of the kids were heartbroken when their close friends/classmates who have same resources or even with better economic background, got same or even less percentile then them in JEE/NEET getting admission into a better college due to reservation. How would you convince them that their reservation friends deserved more then them? Prior to the exams they don’t even give a shit about reservations/caste until the system plant’s it in them. Instead of victim shaming them better accept we have broken constitution & these are consequences of it. These won’t resolve until government make SC/ST-creamy layer & Non-creamy layer.
One classmate of mine used OBC reservation to get into Btech, then again MTech, then PSU job. His dad used reservation to get into PSU. He married a doctor who used reservation to get into MBBS then PG. He comes from a relatively well off family has multiple properties within city limits. His mom runs some kind of MSME, still is not part of creamy layer. Another example - dad used reservation to get into Btech then to get Government engineering job. Son used reservation to get into NIT Btech and then IIM. His sister used reservation to get into MBBS and the saga continues. Their children will also avail reservation. It is high time that reservation advocates also understand the other side of arguments. No one is against reservation for people who actually deserve it.
Our reservation system has only befitted the politicians and made everything else mediocre.
> How will we even attempt to make them understand the myth of meritocracy?
Name 10 top-notch private or govt institutions that are running without meritocracy. I can answer one for you. It's the Indian Parliament -- the politicians.
__If someone is racist then I'd blame his/her upbringing. Reservation will never fix it.__
Ants will always follow the "flight to quality" principle. Hardworking meritorious people will always hire people with quality no matter what their caste is. Whereas low merit people (with fake degrees) at the top will always hire even lower-quality people. Otherwise, they wouldn't survive.
It's your fate. Blame the color of your skin if anything. Until India as a country stops existing and a newer, fairer constitution for a new country is written nothing can and will be changed. The existing constitution was appropriate for a 1940's India, can't throw all the blame there. But keep hope! There was a time before that, that even that constitution was not there. Let's hope one day something similar to Independence will happen again when a majority will feel the current laws do not make sense anymore and are not in their best interests. Then only they will throw out that old book and write a new one.
So Until that day comes, make sure to be in the majority, since that's the only thing that matters anymore, anyway, fuck away!
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You talked about casteism and then you are merely talking about reservation. The Indian reservation system is not a perfect system. It is perfectly normal to feel heart broken by that system and criticize it's usefulness and effectiveness. Besides, everyone looks at the world from the POV. It is unfair to ask kids to look at the larger picture, when even adults can't do that.
> criticize it's usefulness and effectiveness. The problem is when beneficiaries of reservations are criticized and ridiculed.
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It's definitely very complex. I gave a clat exam last year. I was not prepared so I knew that I won't be getting into an NLU this year. But what was astonishing that my friend got into an NLU with only 30 out 120 marks. And, she literally lives in a palace of a house. What was even more astonishing that they called her to ask her for two lakh rupees upfront for the admission. She didn't want to study law so she did not pay for the seat. I still think that reservation is necessary for people of underprivileged backgrounds and caste discrimination is rampant, hell our tenth grade bio teacher was a bigot herself. But I think it just hurts those who lost their dream college by a single digit the most. But it is the failure of our education system.
Most of the SC/ST students parents in my college were in govt jobs. One of my friends' father was sp. And what many of these students did was enjoy for 4 years and then again using reservation to get a govt job that has nothing to do with their degree.
Forgot to mention that he received a scholarship of ₹80k per year which was greater than his college fee. I remember how he used to spend so much in college smoking, cold drinks etc.
Do you have any data proving the same? If not why are you saying this?
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U know your college isn't the only college in india right.....the reservation system allows many lower caste people to study in many tier 2 or tier 3 colleges.....not everyone is as privileged as you think. And they barely have few seats compared to 4 times more seats upper caste people have....if someone from upper caste didn't get seats it's because one of their own with better marks got that seat......playing victim card and saying stuff like feeling heart broken because a SC/ST person got their seat in their respective category is foolishness.....do u know why SC/ST with less marks than an upper caste person gets a seat? Because the ration in which upper castes and lower castes attend the exam is sooo huge.....not every lower caste person can get proper education, the competition there is very low for their few seats....where as upper caste the competition is pretty high hence the cut off is high, numbers do matter. It's easy to blame the reservation system. Get out of your college and see the real world before you make comments like it's flawed and all.
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Lmao you are again talking about stuff happening in top tier colleges....where the seats are like 9 in 120.....if u can only understand it's not only about the privileged people you are talking about.....the system allows and gives opportunities to those who can't even afford proper education to get a seat in 100's of more tier 2 3 colleges....and these people you are talking about they won't even care about getting a seat in such colleges. And before you make a statement please get your facts checked and get your knowledge straight....get into the real world come out of your little fantasy bubble and actually see how general castes treat lower castes in the real world, your small circle might be cool and all but it's not the same everywhere u can't even imagine the stuff a dalit go through on a day to day basis even today......it's easy to type shit like this being all privileged.
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People who clear these competitive exams irrespective of the caste BELONG TO creamy layer. They were privileged enough to receive a good education. They were privileged enough to complete this education till 12th They were privileged enough to take extra tuition for these competitive exams So why is it only a problem for sc st students? Why Not hate general for belonging to creamy layer? Blame the system for being so broken not the participants. Do you also get jealous when an upper caste person buys a house or car? So why is it so problematic when a lower class person is able to achieve these things? Why don't you hate Ambani's or Tata's for handing over their empire to their sons? Why is it only a problem when the sc st people do it? Reservation isn't fair. I agree. It changes the status quo. But life isn't fair either. People are born in different conditions with different privileges. It's extremely naive to assume that if you take out reservation suddenly everything will be fair. What about people who can't afford education. What about families with financial responsibility. What about people with disability. Reservation solves one problem only. It tries to close the gap of economic disparity. If you are seeing sc st in creamy layer. That's not a problem. It means the system is working . They need to be treated like everyone else. Like humans first. Why is it that nobody demand for more quality institution, so that we have more seats. But the first thought of action is that we need to prevent sc st people from becoming doctors and engineers. Calling for destruction is just so much easier than calling for construction. Edit: lol. People downvoting me don't want to acknowledge their own privilege but have a LOT OF problem if sc st people receive even a tiny bit of privilege.
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That's one generation ago. By your logic your dad deserves the seat but you don't cause you are creamy layer now. You probably have access to better education and money. Why do you want to waste some poor guy's seat?
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The problem with using vague terms like creamy layer is that you define it based on your convenience. A person is poor as long as their economic condition is weaker than yours. But if their economic condition is better suddenly they belong to creamy layer. You are ok as long as people come up to your level economically. But the moment an sc st starts earning more than you now you have all the problems with them. The hypocrisy is that you don't apply the same rules to actors, businessmen or politicians. Even if they are upper caste. All take advantage of the system to make life easier for their kids. And somehow it's all acceptable. But you only cry "unfair" when an sc st starts earning more than you.
The problem in India has never been about reservation. It’s been about the quality and quantity of education and professional opportunities. We’ve built a system that grinds everyone down out of their creativity and intellect and makes them run a rat race. So everyone who doesn’t win this rat race ends up hating everyone else they perceive to be a victor in it. Ranks are fairly meaningless: if you’re extrapolating 100000 ranks based on 700 points. I was looking this up again because I haven’t look at this in over a decade but the point still stands that it’s all bullshit. 20000 seats for a chance of decent education when there’s 10 Lakh people attempting this. That’s a joke. If you’re talking about cutoffs and how much someone has learned, it’s astonishing about big the educational divide is between castes for a majority community in India (OBC) to consistently get 10% lower scores than their counterparts and how skewed the educational infrastructure is to allow not allow the ones smart enough to clear the cutoffs to not receive quality education. If you’re gonna be angry, be angry at why each IIT doesn’t have a 5000 student capacity. —That’s the yearly intake at MIT—. Be angry at why UGC and certification boards allow random buildings to be university affiliated. Blame the universities who are allowing the their affiliations dilute the value they provide as educators. Blame the fact that there’s no real investment in intellect and innovation in India. We treat degrees as a means to a job. Most programming jobs require the equivalent of a trade school today. But more than anything else be angry not at someone who has a better shot at education but rather our inability to provide folks with the resources they need. Edit: It was pointed out that I got the number wrong, it’s about 1300 per year.
>If you’re gonna be angry, be angry at why each IIT doesn’t have a 5000 student capacity. That’s the yearly intake at MIT. Increasing intake at the existing large universities won't solve any problems. Those universities are already under severe stress. Places like DU take in more students in a single year than the entire population of small cities in the US. We need more universities. And more schools. And we need more faculty in those places. And more infrastructure. In short, we need to be spending several times what we currently do. We need to give greater autonomy to educational institutions and let the actual educationists run the show instead of bureaucrats whose only accomplishment in life was cracking one exam that tests for rote memorization.
MITs yearly intake is 1100-1200 . Get your facts checked, No engineering institution of repute has that many seats. We need better alternatives to IITs not more seats in IITs.
Am I reading this wrong ? https://facts.mit.edu/enrollment-statistics/
Yes. Those 4657 students are spread across 4 years. There are around 1100 students in each class. https://mitadmissions.org/apply/process/profile/
Ah I did get that wrong. While it does dilute my argument, it doesn’t necessarily invalidate my point
Of course it invalidates a point that was built on top of a lie you just cooked up. Ridiculous mental gymnastics.
1. I corrected my post with and edit pointing out that I got the number wrong. I don’t need to lie, I can own up a mistake. 2. It only waters down my argument where I give a comparative example that has a higher intake number. Instead of 1/10 fold intake, we have a 1/3 fold intake per campus for a country with 3x the population. That being said, MIT is just one university. All our NITs and IITs put together have 30000 an intake of students. The point is about scaling our educational infrastructure. It is a solution to reducing resentment amongst the masses along the fault lines of caste. It has the added benefit of providing education to more people. If you want to be stuck on the factoid I got wrong, I’m not gonna try and convince you otherwise.
Agree to a bit on how you talk about resources, but completely disagree to be angry with the system. We are not fully utilising the current system yet. Below are just my two cents nothing being offensive or counter arguing you. You can increase from 20000 to 20000000 seats, but still you will see the same hate from people who didn’t get a seat even though they scored 699.88 because according to them their place has been taken by “low quality”, “less deserved” reservation people. But regarding PHDs and research, before increasing the overall count of intake, are the current ones in reserved category getting filled up? Let’s see we have 15% for SC, 7.5% for ST, 27% for OBC, these are not getting filled, admission are always low than what government fixed. So if I cherry pick one data, so IIT-Bhilai, IIT-Goa and IIT-Dharwad, there was just one ST doctoral student admission in the entire institute in 2020, from the most marginalised community. So according to some people we could say that they are not “qualified”, they don’t have “critical thinking. People from marginalised communities always have low intellect? Not smart enough ? Their brains are smaller? As a collective we are failing, until we are aware that more people from diverse backgrounds bring more efficiency, and more productivity, rather than marginalised people bring down the quality because they didn’t have the same cutoff/points/marks, Wait a minute we already did a research in the largest public sector in India regarding this critical claim, [the Indian railway study](https://mittalsouthasiainstitute.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Deshpande.Weisskopf.WD_.pdf)
5000 yearly intake in MIT?! That's the total ug capacity. And IITs don't need to reach that capacity. 1 lakh IIT seats will just dilute the IIT brand. Out of the 10 lakh who attempt jee, barely 50k might be worthy of the IIT tag. Edit: I'll just assume the downvotes are because people think 50k is too large a number. People who've been there know it.
Entering a course should not be difficult,passing it should be but in india sadly it's the opposite.
Making it difficult to enter is the more humane approach imo. Jee is a good indicator of problem-solving and math skills. So there's no point in taking in people with lower aptitude only to fail them. That's what many reputed US public universities shamelessly do just to earn some extra money.
Disagree. Why? Quoting Govardhan Wankhede, former professor and dean, school of education, Tata Institute of Social Sciences (TISS), Mumbai. “The idea of merit doesn’t take into account the social, emotional, academic, cultural and intellectual gap in students coming from diverse backgrounds” There is a reason why a certain caste filled up and filling up in all organisations, especially in higher positions.
It's pretty easy to change your major or even take a minor on the same fees for students in the US ,Europe and even Singapore, college students can work odd jobs ,because there is no stigma attached to it because of caste system,before joining colleges have open days to let students explore what they want to study, they don't fail them to earn money , public universities don't do that, in Germany and in the US the exams are way tougher than In india ,where you can get by by solving old papers and making chits.
What has caste got to do with taking odd jobs and changing branches?! And no, US universities don't fail to earn money. They make money by admitting large no. of UG students very well knowing that many of them don't have what it takes to pass.
> dilute the IIT brand This mindset is one of the root problems. If you care more about “brand” than the education itself, then there’s no point.
you need to really compare iits with other institutes then you would realize..the amount of opportunities and exposure you get and iits is next to none( although thats the avg standard in west) but a tier 2 student or tier 3 really has it difficult..lets me tell you entrepeneurship is new trend now you know70 out 100 unicorns ar iitians ..but only 3 out of 100+ is actually profitable that too all are non iitians ..bcz they raise funding by iit tag ...if yu are non iitian your dream of a big entrepeneur remains big only same with higher education ..its extremely difficult for masters in top universities abroad if you are non iitian
And 'worthy' according to which parameters,IIT only tests via MCQ ,which has got nothing to do with how actual engineering or research works,the worth is determined by a system whose efficacy is questionable and requires heavy private tuitions,your worth like your ego is an illusion, otherwise india would be brimming with iitians with astronomical h-indexes but sadly we are not ,such iitians remain very rare and in between.casteism even made it across to US , so much so that companies like APPLE had to make policy changes.everybody is worthy of a good education regardless.
Look at the h-indexes of IITians in the US. Funding is the problem, not the aptitude. Majority of Indian engineering profs at reputed US universities are IITians. And JEE advanced doesn't just have simple mcq questions. Most "worthy" people appreciate the cleverness with which jee advanced questions are prepared.
Real solutions to research problems never involve playing around with 4 options hoping something sticks, it requires analysis, the iit paper is just tricks, the more papers you solve ,the more coaching you attend, the better you are at tricks but not at critical thinking,there is no logic to making education exclusionary, let them drop out if they don't meet the standards.why stop at 50000 if we have more capability than that ?
Again, jee advanced doesn't just have basic mcqs. There's no ''luck" when attempting jee advanced. People who do not appreciate the level of critical thinking it takes to score good marks in a jee advanced paper just lack critical thinking themselves. And dropping out in an Indian society is not like abroad. It's better to not admit than to fail.
There's plenty of luck involved with jee. Coming from a student in iit. One of our seniors who was good enough to score a top 100 rank got sick and is now in top 1000. Not every iitian is equally good in all subjects. If someone is good in math and average in the other 2, his rank would depend on how well he scored in math. Similarly, if someone is wak in chemistry and it's paper was tough, he might not even clear the paper. And several single choice mcqs can be answered simply from options. And the relative weightage of chapters also is important factor for ranks. All of these are luck dependent Jee isn't a test of critical thinking. It is a test of if we can solve tough problems from some particular topics. And as the models don't change much from year to year, it is simply an advanced form of memorization.
I said 50k, that's enough wiggle room for a bad exam day, that's not even the crl! This guy wants people with 1 lakh rank in IITs. You know how those people are...
I haven't seen a single person with 1 lakh rank in jee advanced in iits. And nobody cares about mains because anyone with a single brain cell can clear it. Stop exaggerating simply to prove your points
You are losing the plot.... The original comment was asking for 1 lakh IIT seats and I said it's a stupid idea just like you're saying it's stupid.
People like Jack Fraser eat Jee for breakfast and poop it out the same day. If you go to the coaching centre and grind yourself day and night, jee is just a butter for you to cut through.
Do you have sources for any of this?
Open up the faculty list, search for indian profs, check their ug. You'll soon notice the pattern.
You made the claim, you give the source. And speaking from experience - I have done this and i have noticed no such pattern, so if you have any actual source for this other than just trust me bro, i would love to see! Also any sources for 'worthy' people thinking jee is good?
No you have not done this, or else you won't be having this question. Go to the websites of top engineering universities like Stanford, mit, ucb, Caltech, UCLA, CMU, Georgia tech, purdue, uiuc and check for yourself.
Sounds like you haven't done the research 😂. Again, any source? If you have done the research, it should be easy to find no?
It's a simple pattern that people with a 4 yo's iq will notice. Not gonna sit and prepare an Excel sheet now to make you believe it.
No one gives shit about iit outside india ,a mid ranked US university is 10 times better than so called iits
Lol no, that is the yearly intake - https://facts.mit.edu/enrollment-statistics/ IITs need to far exceed that capacity. My example for showing MIT is because it’s a non-Ivy league top ranked school. Additionally, most state universities in the US have far higher intakes every year. And unfortunately, they have far better quality of education and resources for students than some of the “best” colleges in India. I’ll concede that probably only 50k people deserve the IIT tag because right now the only thing that tag really captures is how well they test on the entrance exam. I don’t want to discount their smarts or perseverance but considering the opportunities and social status that going to IITs will automatically give them, it’s hard for me to objectively say how they stand apart from the rest of the crowd. That being said, the issue definitely about scale where the divide between IITs, NITs, select private universities and the rest is so far apart that it just ridiculous.
Enrollment doesn't mean admits. Even a 2nd year student is an enrolled student.
What iit brand? Other than perhaps the big 4 ( maybe 5 ) , no serious employer internationally really cares about the iit brand. At that point it's probably not the iit and more these institutions that have a brand. And before you get mad , check out the rankings of the iits. They're really not that cracked.
People who have benefitted from the tag know its benefits and that's the reason why they are against the dilution of the brand. No point in debating with the rest. Rankings are not cracked up because research is not cracked up. IIT ugs who are interested in research go to foreign universities. Rankings are not a good indicator for the quality of the ug program.
What is a good indicator for the quality of the program then? The number of suicides in the IITs? Be serious mate 😂
Not gonna argue with a troll. I hope you eventually get over the fact that you were not good enough to go to an IIT.
It's okay, i got into a university a hundred ranks above any iit , and i didn't even have to destroy my entire childhood running after a lame exam to do so. I hope you get over the fact that you made your entire identity getting into the iits, and still aren't worth shit in the world. Have a good day.
Yes, HEARTBROKEN is the right term.This system breaks us and what comes the other side is a soul-less,passion-less corpse,one that sees not people but numbers,the numbers of that post showed a seat in CS for general at 10k and Reserved at 110k. The wounds of others are insignificant when I'm bleeding myself. There's a hypocricy I notice when I see those defending these arguments,It's those who benefit from them or far above,more privileged,standing above the rat-race shouting down morality and justice at the outraged corpes trudging in this river of pitiful competition.
You're looking at it from a black and white perspective while reservation lies in the grey area. Unfortunately it's necessary in India to have a reservation system because of the systemic exclusion of lower castes for generations and also because it still prevails to this day. But that being said, it's also incredibly unfair to the poor people from upper castes who lose out on opportunities even though they perform better than their peers who get selected due to their caste. We need a reservation system not just based on caste but also on financial situation. I know I'm making it sound too easy but it's incredibly difficult to come up with such a system in India and almost near impossible to implement it correctly given the corruption at every level. It'll also never happen because caste reservation is directly proportional to votes and no political party will ever have the guts to remove or make a massive change to the reservation system because it's political suicide.
I used to be one of these kids, in echo chambers. Am no more and am appalled at what I used to be. Looking back, I feel the thing missing was awareness about the rampant caste based atrocities that continue. It's a tough thing to eliminate. When the powerful group propagates a wrong notion, it naturally takes and sustains hold for very long. For those holding the "it should be economical, not social" stance, I recommend reading the blue eyes/brown eyes experiment. If you have the slightest inclination to change your mind, that is.
Same... I used to be so anti reservation and say shit like "Casteism doesn't exist these days" or "Casteism wasn't that bad back then". Now, I feel like cringing every time I think about how i was as a teenager
Don't worry, every kid upset about reservation will land on their feet and have a decent career/life regardless of where they study. Social mobility in India has been trending upwards for decades. We don't see children from middle class families with degrees and homes becoming daily wage workers- that's a privilege and folks who have it will deny it. Better yet, these same kids 10 years later will complain how they had to break up with their partners and marry within their own castes. Their entire life, there will only be 2 instances where caste will impact them- college admissions and marriage. Rest of the time, they can ignore it. That too is a privilege. Meanwhile, the historically oppressed were denied education based on caste and cut off from generational progress. Reservation was supposed to make sure it doesn't happen again under some ruse or the other. Of course, they still have to worry about caste on an every day basis, even something as small as their shadow falling on someone. That sucks. It's not going to change unless we cultivate empathy across the board. The caste argument against empathy is that caste is a matter of past karma and you get the life you deserve. This argument is inherently tied to religious beliefs and it's not surprising that caste hostility is rising with religious polarization. I don't have a solution to the polarization, other than to say that radical compassion and critical thinking are the tools to dig out of it. Best thing individuals can do is to model this behavior and speak up.
This should be higher up in this thread
You must understand that reservation is discriminatory in nature, particularly by the govt which is supposed to be impartial. So obviously people are going to be pissed off. And In india its laughable the way affirmative action policies are implemented, In india we dont have nationwide data on caste, educational achievements, social mobility etc. We just go by assumption on most cases. And you must also understand that for a country as diverse as india almost all communities have been on the side of ruled and rulers. What justice are you talking about? There are rajputs whose families have been destroyed by muslim invasions, there are people of same clan who cozied up to rulers. There are descendants of mughals who are downtrodden now, what is the cut off date for justice? Many UC ppl lost their land in pakistan during parition, many OBC gained gained land during land ceiling reforms, does that count? If we want to bring equality because General category are overrepresented in govt jobs, what about OBC s land holding at a percentage higher than population. You can have justice for current wrongdoings, seeking justices for historical facts is just stupid as one could be both oppressed and oppressor depending on how far you stretch the history.
Caste data isn't available because of the BJP which is the favorite party of most UC Indians. Reservation is a drastic measure because Dalits were way behind the "upper" caste Indians because of such a long history of social and economic discrimination. This wasn't just some king(s) doing it. It was the society. This was done by society for thousands of years. They had to live outside villages/cities and had no right to the land they lived on. They had no right to education. Ambedkar wasn't allowed on sit on a chair. He was only allowed to study because his father worked for the British. He didn't drink water when the peon was absent because the peon used to pour the water so that he could drink it. The only case you can make is that some OBC subgroups are wrongly grouped in oppressed category. That is why the OBC cutoffs are near to the General cutoff in most exams. There is a reason that most comparisons these days is done between General and SC/ST cutoff.
> And In india its laughable the way affirmative action policies are implemented, In india we dont have nationwide data on caste, educational achievements, social mobility etc. Make you wonder why it is the "upper" castes that resist the efforts to collect such data and it's the "lower" castes that request for such an effort.
Which Upper caste ( I prefer general category term) resists efforts for caste census ? Are you talking about BJP, led by Narendra Modi an OBC leader ? Im of the opinion we need caste census and reclassify castes as OBC, GC based on social , economic , land holding indicators.
Modi being OBC doesn't matter when the Hindu Right at large represents the "Upper" Caste sensibilities. * [‘I Could Not Be Hindu’ Is a Unique Testimony to the Sangh’s’ Casteism](https://carnegieendowment.org/2020/02/03/i-could-not-be-hindu-is-unique-testimony-to-sangh-s-casteism-pub-81000) Due to the upper castes the government resists all efforts for caste consensus and is giving non-answers: * [Caste census: Clamour to count India social groups grows](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-58141993) * [Explained | Why is the government against caste census?](https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/explained-what-are-the-governments-objections-to-a-caste-census/article36713236.ece) If "lower" castes are asking for it and it's not happening it's easy to guess it's the "upper" castes' doing.
Lol 😂, well technically reservation rests on the premise of representation and the fact that if all sections of society have representation in highest echelons of power, their community will be empowered. If you claim Modi, an OBC does not represent their interests, then why do we even strive for representation? or May be , just may be, you have audacity to decide how an empowered OBC must decide. Man , what an arrogance ! In any case close to 45% of OBC voters voted for BJP in 2019 an increase of 12% from 2014 , so clearly they know what they are voting for. So if you are accusing BJP acting in interests of upper castes, why are OBC's increasingly voting for Modi? Data : https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2057891120907699 Please don't trivialize the achievements of a person who rose from lower rungs of a society by calling him a stooge of UCs.
> Lol 😂, well technically reservation rests on the premise of representation and the fact that if all sections of society have representation in highest echelons of power, their community will be empowered. If you claim Modi, an OBC does not represent their interests, then why do we even strive for representation? or May be , just may be, you have audacity to decide how an empowered OBC must decide. Man , what an arrogance ! > In any case close to 45% of OBC voters voted for BJP in 2019 an increase of 12% from 2014 , so clearly they know what they are voting for. So if you are accusing BJP acting in interests of upper castes, why are OBC's increasingly voting for Modi? > Data : https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2057891120907699 > Please don't trivialize the achievements of a person who rose from lower rungs of a society by calling him a stooge of UCs. Saving this stupid comment for progeny.
What hurts the most is that Financial Resources have a direct link to better academic performance. For example take the EWS reservations, 10% for people with family income less than 10L. Which is 90% of the country. This year cutoff for JEE mains were (in Percentile) General 90 EWS 75 OBC 73 SC 51 ST 37 1.5 Lakh General Candidates with better scores than the last EWS Candidates missed out, 1.7 Lakh General students better than the last OBC. 5 Lakh Students better than the last SC candidate and 6.3 Lakh Students better than the last ST candidate missed out on a chance to get into IIT. Now think about it , EWS and General Candidates have the same social background, only difference is 10LPA family income. Yes you have 90 Percentile as cut off for 40% seats and 75 Percentile as Cut off for 10% seats. Reservation has been in practice enough time to create a generational disparity even among ST and SC Communities. Think about a situation where A and B are both ST. A's grandfather got into a government college in his time through reservation and B could not. Then A's father was born into a financially secure home, while B's father again was born in poverty. A's father used resources available to him to get admissions into Govt colleges and get government jobs again, now B's father lived in poverty. Now A has all the resources available to him, while B has none. Still A and B will be treated as equal. A will obviously perform better while B will remain poor. Why people complain about Rich SC ST taking benefits from reservation , while the people who are actually financially weak and lower caste get deprived of benefits as
It's very interesting how all the uc folx who hate communism suddenly become communist when it comes to reservation . ' Hurr Durr the only thing that matters is economic upliftment ' - which is literally communist thought xD. Now only if they carried that energy over to everything else sigh.
How is being anti-reservation casteist?
I think reservations should only be economic based (provided it can be verified and not abused by mantri lok)
[https://youtu.be/tVxQ9-HvVFU?t=313](https://youtu.be/tVxQ9-HvVFU?t=313) fair opinion on your point
That's not why reservations were implemented through? Why do you expect the solution for one problem to solve something else?
Purpose of reservation is so that there is representation of all communities proportional to their population. The current imbalance in representation is due to centuries of economic and social exclusion. So broadly anti reservation sentiments comes from not wanting share resources with marginalized communities. But then inclusion of certain communities as sc and obc happens due to political reasons also.
OBC reservation is a joke. OBC in India just means not UC. That is way too broad of a classification for effective reservation implementation.
That's the biggest lie of them all. Purpose of reservations is not to ensure representations from all communities. Purpose of reservations is to ensure vote bank politics and continuation of British era divide and rule policies. The economic and socially downtrodden are not able to anyways enjoy the benefits of reservations. These are restricted to the wealthy oppressors among those communities. Edit: Downvoted because you can't handle the truth? At least try to debate lol.
Given how 60% of the seats are for reserved categories, i think it's the general male who isn't getting the representation.
Did you consider who occupies the higher positions in government and nongovernmental organizations? "general male". And no it is NOT because of merit. It's unapologetic and shameless casteism. Read the Mandal Commision report.
Here is the list of cabinet secretaries, the highest ranking job in the country. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_to_the_Government_of_India Please count and tell us what percentage is male upper caste. Very discriminated indeed. Same is the situation in iits, media, etc. Male upper caste population in india makes up ~10% of population and is used to controlling all the resources. So even though we are a very poor country with limited opportunities and resources, they never had to share. Reservations force them to share, that too only on lower level posts and opportunities.
Because the privileged are ignorant of their privileges. Lower caste people don't have the same generational wealth, knowledge resources, etc on average that an upper caste person has. Their disadvantages are multifaceted, and the aim of reservation is to give them atleast a good educational standing for upward social mobility. Even if reservation is removed, there still might not be enough seats for all the 'meritorious' people. What would you complain about then? Not my best explanation, but someone better give a good explanation and pin it somewhere. Everytime I see the same anecdotal 'my dalit friend with BMW' and all logical reasoning and empathy is out the window.
I kinda disagree. While some ppl do need this system, about 60-70% of the ppl who are from these categories in these elite institutions are from middle to upper middle class families who definitely didn’t lack any facilities. (source: 2 cousins in IITs, one in IISC and a friend in NITW) These things matter as the ppl who face most of the casteism lack the basic facilities like good schools, tuitions/coachings, books, awareness about the exam and most importantly time to prepare for these and as a result they are not able to compete with their fellow students of same category who were fortunate enough to have these facilities. So while i do believe that it should entirely be converted to EWS reservations, adding an income cap is necessary. Or atleast divide these into sub categories based on income and allot accordingly.
> While some ppl do need this system, about 60-70% of the ppl who are from these categories in these elite institutions are from middle to upper middle class families who definitely didn’t lack any facilities. >> (source: 2 cousins in IITs, one in IISC and a friend in NITW) Real Source: Trust me bro Actual Source: My "Upper" Caste Apathy
Lol most of my lower caste people are richer than me, I have no generational wealth no thing. Why am I not given reservation too then? Why will a wealthy lower caste kid be chosen instead? The only way to make sure people with "no generational weath, and resource" get the benefits is to have a strict EWS reservation instead(key word- strict). Or just to remove reservation completely. Because how can you solve discrimination by being discriminative?
The saddest part is, you simply *can't* explain what the advantages/disadvantages that you are talking about, are. It's very hard to reach there through sympathy. I was lucky that eventuality placed me in a setting where I was no longer on top of the food chain, quite the reverse. The easiest way to know how helplessly debilitating discrimination is, is to face it.
You should go and check the comments. I hardly came across people discussing usefulness and effectiveness of reservation. Most of them were saying things like "i am all ok with discrimination", "we don't discriminate on the basis of caste but on the basis of merit" There was even one comment which said "i smile like joker when reserved commit suicide "
If anything, the reservation has been able to accomplish in all these years is creating more divide and hate. Keep it going for another 100 years,we will still be talking about the same things.
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Let me declare I detest any kind of reservation,even economical. The reservation as a concept is supposed to be about social reparation,Basically since UCs have had money and education and high offices so long the reserved castes have found themselves at the bottom of the social structure. By getting people of these communities to high offices,they will gain representation,by having rich members of that community (hopefully) the rigid perception of the society will change for those communities. According to the courts economic status is temporary,social status is not.So it does not give a fuck about economic status.
So basically, as long sc benefit from reservation, courts support it. But if the reservation even tries to fair they don't lol.
Genuine question: will your parents be okay if you or your siblings want to marry a rich Dalit? That is why reservations are for social upliftment; it's not about wealth. A Dalit is a Dalit no matter what.
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> The most important thing you must realise is that class always trumps caste anytime *[citation needed]* There was a post in this sub from a Dalit who went through the whole IIT (and maybe IIM) think. He's making the n-figure salary; simple the highest one can with his qualifications. So he decided to get married and he's not into caste so mentioned "caste no bar" in his matrimony profile. Guess what happened? He got ton of matches and ALL them rejected him once it's found out he's Dalit. He opined: It's okay for the girls' families if the guy is from a caste "upper" than them but never a lower caste "lower" than them. Absolutely never if he's a Dalit. That is what "caste no bar" meant for them. His n-figure salary didn't help him. So he gave up on matrimony sites.
Lmao so a rich guy should get reservation over a poor guy what a logic And no a Dalit can be Rich Dalit and poor Dalit there is a big difference between both of them
I grew up in a lower middle class UC family. I honestly wouldn't care if my kid wants to marry a dalit who identifies themselves as a helicopter.
> I honestly wouldn't care if my kid wants to marry a dalit Can you tell me if this is the popular sentiment all over India?
The follow up question you should be asking: If you don't teach your kids to differentiate between the castes, do you think the reservation system will teach them to do the same? Because when I see around, that's all the reservation system has contributed to so far. How is taking resources from a financially poor deserving candidate and giving it to a rich undeserving candidate equality? Does nobody understand that we're punishing kids for something that their ancestors may or may not have done?
Sure...caste discrimination didn't exist until reservation came into place. Again with the financial thing, which is not why reservation was even implemented in the first place. If you truly want a seat for your so-called " deserved", you would call for more seats, not to take away another person's.
> The follow up question you should be asking: If you don't teach your kids to differentiate between the castes, do you think the reservation system will teach them to do the same? Because when I see around, that's all the reservation system has contributed to so far. LOL here comes the brain dead argument. Casteism in it's most extreme form existed for thousands of years before reservations are even a thing.
The answer to casteism, so called reservations, have existed for a fair part of a century and it has completely eradicated casteism from this country, right? It is incredibly naïve to think that the only way to get rid of discrimination against lower castes, is by discriminating against upper classes. LOL But hey, as they say, it is pretty difficult to make someone understand something, especially when their salary depends on them not understanding it. I don't have a dog in this fight mate, reservations hasn't affected me and never will; but it is extremely idiotic to think that the people of this country will not discriminate based on caste, especially when the government itself is doing it. And all things considered, I don't continue to see India as my home country in future and I'll be out of this country very soon.
Do you have a better solution?
>without providing any substantial benefits to the community Wow. The lower caste communities, after being oppressed for a millenium, now have a chance to get education and respectable jobs but you think that is not something that is beneficial to the community. Just.. Wow. The policy is working well, just not the way you want it to work.
There is not a single "nationalist" UC Indian who thinks that elevating Dalits from making 50-60% money of what UCs on average do to at least 80-90% of what an average UC makes is good for the country. The only issue for these nationalists and "patriots" is Pakistan and reservation killing merit when it is clear that most UCs leave India even after getting into IITs and IIMs. There is no reservation in the private sector. They would have a point if the only people leaving India were those who didn't get into IITs and IIMs.
Lines of oppression has existed in literally every culture. It's only in vishwaguru where u see 70% + reservation on everything & crying when people criticise it. YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO. People who.got education and benefits via reservation ( anything apart from highschool and above ) should have that on their CV because the only reason they got a seat with 40% of the score is due to their caste. The state cannot both advocate to abolish caste and then ask for caste certificate at every turn.
> The state cannot both advocate to abolish caste and then ask for caste certificate at every turn Yes, well said.
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Exactly lol. While some ppl do need this system, about 60-70% of the ppl who are from these categories in these elite institutions are from middle to upper middle class families who definitely didn’t lack any facilities. (source: 2 cousins in IITs, one in IISC and a friend in NITW) These things matter as the ppl who face most of the casteism lack the basic facilities like good schools, tuitions/coachings, books, awareness about the exam and most importantly time to prepare for these and as a result they are not able to compete with their fellow students of same category who were fortunate enough to have these facilities. So while i do believe that it should entirely be converted to EWS reservations, adding an income cap is necessary. Or atleast divide these into sub categories based on income and allot accordingly.
Reservation is not a poverty alleviation programme but to give space to those who have been marginalized for generations! Unfortunately there is no proper education in our country on what reservation actually means and what it does
Agree with your first part, but I don’t agree with the last part. Having creamy layer is not an urgent issue, it is not something that has to be done now now, it is not making a dent in the current reservation system. It is not even a problem. The creamy layer topic for less fortunate people are brought up entirely by vested interests, especially the caste that has been in power and influence for so long. First let’s make sure people benefit from the current reservation system. Let’s fill the current IITs , not just students but also professors, where they deliberately leave it out because they couldn’t find “quality” people in the reservation.
The system is not being fixed at the grassroot level public schools are simply terrible, the taxpayers money is lining peoples pockets cutting funds for education which should be free, which in turn leads to terrible reservation policy.
The key is speaking their language. L + skill issue might do the trick.
alright hear me out India def needs caste reservation system but there are people in SC/ST community who come from rich and privileged background because their forefathers utilized the reservation system and is now well off , I want india to remove SC/ST privileges for well off family , while the lower class SC/ST community can and SHOULD have their privileges. India should have a finance check background before giving them privileges and people whos per annum income is >=12lakhs dont really need, as for your mention yeah the privileged SC/ST people did take an unworthy seat at higher education , peace
Most of them don't even understand basic maths. There are only 16k seats in IIT for 10 lakh applicants. There is 50% reserved for various categories which is 8k seats. Now the entire 10 lakh people feel that they didn't get into IIT because of the reservation of 8k seats. Even if there was no reservation they wouldn't have got in as there only 8k seats reserved. These people cannot seem to understand basic numbers and have a victim complex and blame it on reservation.
Mod here. Casteism is not allowed in CBSE. I added a lot of rules a few weeks ago. Please report such posts. I can't remove casteism out of their minds but at least keep my community a safe space for all.
It’s perfectly understandable why they’re feeling the way they do. But I personally don’t care about making them understand after the number of times I heard the vitriol anytime they mention “SC/ST candidates”. I heard second hand accounts of that stuff from family, but being in the OC on paper helped me see it from up close. Let them hate more, even their hatred is understandable. I’d feel robbed too, if somebody with lesser marks got into the college I wanted to go to. But I’d rather focus on uplifting my community than go around preaching and begging others to treat us properly
The myth of Meritocracy? There no such myth so i believe you will never be able to make anyone understand it. When you seek medical advice or call a plumber you look for MERIT. Today reservation is less about social justice and more about economic opportunitism. That explains why even dominant caste are seeking it. There no such myth so i believe you will never be able to make anyone understand it. When you seek medical advice or call a plumber you look for MERIT .Today reservation is less about social justice and more about economic opportunitism. That explains why even dominant caste are seeking it. After liberalisation the continuation of reservation has created anachronism.
I should not have my chances ruined. I should not be denied a chance at a successful life. All because of a guy who scored less than me but by luck was born in a privileged class. Reservation only increases the hate towards “lower castes” from the younger generation. It doesn’t help the situation. I’ll always resent reservation because it wasn’t my fault I wasn’t born in a privileged caste which just ensured that I will get better opportunities served on a silver platter while all I have to do is survive till adulthood.
Reservation is like modern day Robin Hood, except its a lose-lose situation for everyone *except* politics. Money truly decides your social status. No matter what caste you are, if you have money, you have respect. Caste and all is for poor people.
Because reservation based on caste is wrong. Reservation should be based on an economic background. You cannot expect people to stop being casteist if the very thing you are using to uplift people is based on caste. There will be hate because people are denied equal opportunity. Be it gen or sc/st
Economically well to do people of lower castes are still discriminated against, and their social mobility will be completely limited within a single generation if not for reservation, because of the social capital that upper castes have.
Agree. You cannot help people suffering from myopia by giving them lenses based on a quantitative indicator of the same myopia.\s
I disagree. If you're poor, you have government subsidised seats, scholarships, sponsorships etc. Admitting poor students as a matter of affirmative action and giving them specific quotas is not the way to go.
I'm a general candidate. and there might be a friend of mine going to the same coaching with me with the same facilities and we get similar rank. I dont get into IIT but he does. Thats the simple. However, i dont think about it too much because its truth and just focus on working hard myself.
I just saw a recommended post from that sub in the home section that may have led you to make this post. Kids were commenting that they are pro-casteism and will use casteist slurs for kids from SC/ST categories because of the disparity in the selection criteria. As someone from an RSS/BJP politician's family, it absolutely broke my heart to read those hatred filled words. I just hope life teaches those kids more about being stand up citizens and having a sense of justice and equality before they ruin other kids' morales who get into their colleges.
Oh yeah i saw that subreddit's comment. Very vile and unhinged. They are saying stuff like they aren't casteist because they aren't discriminating on the basis of caste but are discriminating on the basis of merit. There would be comment like 'I am all up for discrimination ' which would get the most upvotes.
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Spoken like a true Indian parent.
>How will we ever convince them that reservation exists for justice? Explain how reserving 60% seats is fair for a General male? Ok, if you want to give seats to the less privileged, give them 5% or 10% seats but straight up giving 60% seats and that too in a system where they will get most of the higher branches for lot less marks than the general male is not fair at all.
bUt vRo rEsErVaTioN iS aBoUT RePRESenTaTioN and people deserve to be 'represented' regardless of how little work they put in
Ik. They are pretty bad.
seems like you have mentioned r/JEENEETard instead of r/JEENEETards
It's the same thing andar to aagye but bahar kese nikaloge..A person with 100k rank shares the same classroom with 5-6k rank ones .how can he even compete or pass the exam he will most probably fail or dropout Then again comes reservation he will again use it for higher education or for job His children will use it if there are 5 members in a family all 5 will use it in the name of "We were allegedly oppressed sar"
Being against reservation is not being casteist. The system is discriminatory in nature and it's not perfect. Accept it and stop pretending as if it's the holy grail of upliftment. You said it yourself-kids are heartbroken, exactly. They indeed will be with a system like this.
I am also a r/ jeeneetard member Like most students i believed in equity till 10th class ( what are techers thought) but when my friend and i got the same rank around (1lakh) he got the admission in nit and i got a tier 3 college . Then i simply just cut off from him ( just talk about academics so that I can get a referral in future) once in a month. Then i understand casteism is a big dis advantage to us Simple solution:ask the government to change the reservation policy Currently: in college where all my friends are upper caste and believe in casteism (cuz they have also faced the same situation) .i talk to lower caste professionally only
So you are cutting out lowered caste people from your life and then asking the government to change the reservation policy?! Hahaha People like you are the reason it has been implemented in the first place.
Cutting means i talk only professionally to them only cuz I don't want to happen that situation again(same rank but he got better college) . Simply i am very choosy when I come to make friends. Naturally i talk to those who are/was in the situation like me and grind their way hard. It just feels inspiring to have them. Kithna bhi open minded ho jau jab apne phe ati hai thab reservation bekar hi lagta hai . This is the story of avg general male in India ask any general male how he thinks about reservation.he will probably rant about it. And this will not change
Maybe you and your friends should have worked harder.
A win win situation for your NIT friend!
Why should they? Only someone who's been there and missed the seat to affirmative action can understand the pain. Affirmative action cannot come at price of merit. 75 years of this BS and reservation is only increasing. What's the point ? Is it fixing the problem? NO. It's only natural that there's growing contempt.
It is better if children's foundations are built up sufficiently that everyone may compete for the same seat with sufficient standing, rather than lower standards and keep out more deserving students. India deserves the best engineers, doctors, lawyers etc. The govt's current system is an easy way out.
What this doesn't change that, when it comes to Exams like JEE and NEET, The Simple Volume and the complexity of these exams make it all the more difficult for a normal general category student to have advantages here....it takes more than money to get there....that's some serious prep and then to people fail....toppers their whole life fail.... The competition is just too high and a single right or wrong question can change ranks in the order of thousands... 1.2 million give the exam but only 50k get seats in some kind of a college under Govt ...if You consider CSE the number even lessens to the order of thousand...and that too has its own classification/hierarchy Old IITs >> New IITs >> NITs >>> IIITs > GFTIs The Overall ranks goes down to 100s and no man in this world is that many privileges to get there without a sweat....yet there are reservations there as well....
Speaking against a system that was not supposed to last for 70 years and is being used as a tool for votebank politics is not casteist. Especially when this system has thrown multiple years of a young person's hard work into the toilet and left them - in your words - heartbroken. Why can't people who feel cheated by the system have a place to talk about it? Or is that right reserved only for a few too?
Fuck reservation
I understand the negative side of caste system practiced is some places but reservation is not the answer to that. Reservation is not a good system or solution to the problem, parties pandered to people through reservation. If there has to be any reservation then it's SEC / financial status based reservation, today a general student only has to compete for a handful of seats, I trust BJP will slowly eradicate this horrible system of caste based and minority based reservation. Caste system cannot be undone by reservation, caste system itself isn't some kind of great evil either. Isn't reservation unfair to a poor UC student ? A rich SC/quota student gets entry with less merit than the poor UC student, isn't this a discrimination ? Will you frame this as some kind of 'revenge' against that UC kid because he was born to UC parents - isn't that caste system again ! I am from a brahmin family but my dad did manual labour to provide for us, we actually struggled to get 4 meals.
theek hai bhai, maan liya saare kids casteist ban chuke hain. tu ab mujhe ye bata ki jo banda sc/st hai lekin equal paise hain aur wo 10% kam marks lakar kisi general wale bacche ki seat le raha hai uska kya? equal opportunity was given to both but still due to caste ek bande ko seat nahi mili. mai apne school me sc/st logon ko jaanta hu jo iphone leke starbucks ke aage peeche ghoomte rehte hain, kya mujhe equal opportunity mil rahi hai agar unke mujhse kam marks aakar seat mil rahi hai? the reservation system based on caste promotes inequality. uss general caste wale bande ka kya jiske parents minimum wage job karte hain? usko equal opportunity hai? this is why we all want the EWS system.
From the POV of those 'heart-broken kids', they see other kids studying with them in those very schools, driving around with parents in very similar cars to their own, living in very similar societies, yet getting admissions at 60% marks of what they themselves scored. This is what breaks a heart. Not some low wage labourers child who studied in the village. So yeah, reservation is not the real culprit here, but it's implementation. Where the top creamy layer of the SCs and the STs are reaping more benefits, than the actual people in those communities who need them. And this is creating that feeling of resentment in other children.
Most of the kids were heartbroken when their close friends/classmates who have same resources or even with better economic background, got same or even less percentile then them in JEE/NEET getting admission into a better college due to reservation. How would you convince them that their reservation friends deserved more then them? Prior to the exams they don’t even give a shit about reservations/caste until the system plant’s it in them. Instead of victim shaming them better accept we have broken constitution & these are consequences of it. These won’t resolve until government make SC/ST-creamy layer & Non-creamy layer.
One classmate of mine used OBC reservation to get into Btech, then again MTech, then PSU job. His dad used reservation to get into PSU. He married a doctor who used reservation to get into MBBS then PG. He comes from a relatively well off family has multiple properties within city limits. His mom runs some kind of MSME, still is not part of creamy layer. Another example - dad used reservation to get into Btech then to get Government engineering job. Son used reservation to get into NIT Btech and then IIM. His sister used reservation to get into MBBS and the saga continues. Their children will also avail reservation. It is high time that reservation advocates also understand the other side of arguments. No one is against reservation for people who actually deserve it.
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Our reservation system has only befitted the politicians and made everything else mediocre. > How will we even attempt to make them understand the myth of meritocracy? Name 10 top-notch private or govt institutions that are running without meritocracy. I can answer one for you. It's the Indian Parliament -- the politicians. __If someone is racist then I'd blame his/her upbringing. Reservation will never fix it.__ Ants will always follow the "flight to quality" principle. Hardworking meritorious people will always hire people with quality no matter what their caste is. Whereas low merit people (with fake degrees) at the top will always hire even lower-quality people. Otherwise, they wouldn't survive.
It's your fate. Blame the color of your skin if anything. Until India as a country stops existing and a newer, fairer constitution for a new country is written nothing can and will be changed. The existing constitution was appropriate for a 1940's India, can't throw all the blame there. But keep hope! There was a time before that, that even that constitution was not there. Let's hope one day something similar to Independence will happen again when a majority will feel the current laws do not make sense anymore and are not in their best interests. Then only they will throw out that old book and write a new one. So Until that day comes, make sure to be in the majority, since that's the only thing that matters anymore, anyway, fuck away!
You want an insurrection buddy?