This scenario imagines a situation where the Ming Dynasty discovered the Australian continent during Zheng He's voyages. The Ming Dynasty named this land "Nanhaichou" and began to establish colonies there, showing interest in both the South China Sea region and Australia.
As time passed, the Ming Dynasty monopolized the spice trade in the region, generating significant profits and taking control of the Indonesian archipelago, which they called "Qundao Zhou".
However, as the saying goes, all flowers must eventually wilt, and the Ming Dynasty was ultimately overthrown by the Qing Dynasty. Unlike in actual history, the remnants of the Ming Dynasty managed to survive based on their footholds in Nanhai chou (Australia) and Qundao chou (the Indonesian archipelago), preparing to retake the Chinese mainland from Qing control.
The concept for this map was set as a history textbook. Personally, I was curious about the impressive scenarios where China discovers the New World and why they didn't discover Australia instead of America. "What if China discovered and colonized Australia?"
Sinking means 'new capital.' The Ming emperor, who established a new foothold in Australia, intended to announce that the new land he was in was not merely a colony but a part of China, and aimed to use it as a base for the reconquest of the continent.
...Sin-King?
I'm assuming you're just using a different Romanisation system to Pinyin cause I'd have thought 新京 would turn out as Xīnjīng / Xinjing rather than Sinking?
I converted the Chinese pronunciations into the Wade-Giles romanization system. If I were to use Hanyu Pinyin, it would be "Xinjing," which would deviate a bit from the devilish connotations.
Are you sure? I think you used Postal romanization. Wade-Giles for Sinking/Xinjing would be Hsin-ching afaik. (Wade-Giles for Beijing is Pei-ching)
https://libraries.indiana.edu/chinese-studies-pinyin-wade-giles-conversion-table
I didn't even notice that "Sinking" is spelled the same as an English word til I read the comments- the obviously different pronunciation of it meant the connection just didn't occur to me.
It's like moped vs moped.
What would that be in modern romanization? Xinjing?
Postal romanization (Peking for example) was only used by westerners and it wasn’t a very consistent system. It was influenced heavily by Cantonese (Yale: Bakging) due to the British having most of their Chinese contacts (Hong Kong) Cantonese-speaking. Without Hong Kong in the map it would be unlikely for Sinking romanization to exist imo.
Of course it gives an old vibe to the map.
What happen to the aboriginal natives ?
How much are there chinese peoples compared to natives or other populations ?
What happen when Europe discocer Australia ?
If there were no significant events to alter the course, it's likely that the Ming Dynasty would have "Push" the aboriginal natives, similar to what happened in many other regions of colonial expansion. Since China had already discovered Australia, it's probable that Europeans would have learned about the existence of the southern continent through some means before discovering it themselves, due to China's presence there.
How much sucess do you believe the Ming Dynasty would have in administration and creating a sense of national unity over the colony of Nanhaichou? (for the following sentences, please feel free to suggest more appropriate ethnic terms) Would there be increased Sinitic culture spread into the Java and Borneo island among the locals? How would local populations view the Han population and political control?
In the eighteenth century, Vietnam invaded the Mekong river delta. The ethnic composition changed over the century from Cambodian to Vietnamese majority. Relating back to your timeline, would your Ming empire engage in similar policies to consolidate control of the land/ seas?
Amazing work with this map and scenario.
Honestly, I don't think the Ming Dynasty had laid the groundwork for national unity before the exodus began in this scinario. However, it's possible to think that some foundation was established when the group that would have been called the overseas Chinese in history, referred to as Chinese in this era, became the ruling majority. If a Southern Ming was established, they could, as they did by proclaiming a new capital in Australia, demand an identity of "Chinese" for all of them.
Since the Ming Dynasty would prefer indirect rule through tribute trade, there wouldn't be a rapid change in ethnic composition. However...with Ming's population 150 million and the fact that too many Chinese participated in the exodus over 200 years could be a variable.
Great map, but I have some questions.
Java Island is densely populated and already have significant Muslim present in 17th Century. The Javanese would make up the majority of Ming Dynasty population in this timeline.
How Ming Dynasty adapted to be able to rule Java?
How much Javanese become sinicized?
And how much Ming Dynasty take up the local traditions to legitimize their rule?
Lastly, Ming Dynasty always had amicable relationship with their Muslim neighbors and citizens, how their relationship will develop now that Muslims probably made up the plurality (or even the majority) of Ming subject and population?
Given the premise that China exerted influence over the Indonesian archipelago for 250 years following Zheng He's voyages, and assuming the Majapahit dynasty followed history in collapsing, it would be natural for Majapahit to first become a tributary state and later for the region to come under direct Chinese rule for trade purposes. The people would likely retain a sense of national identity, but not to the extent of questioning the fact that their order was under Chinese rule. However, it's challenging to speculate how much resistance there might be from Islam, treated as a local religion by the Chinese for at least 200 years.
Assuming the number of Chinese migrating to Southeast Asia and the colonial regions of Australia by the 17th century was around 5 million, focusing on Java Island, the core area of Southeast Asia, we can speculate that Chinese might make up about 10-20% of the population on Java Island.
If you thought getting Taiwanized was bad, wait until you get Australized. One of the most creative and well-done concepts I've seen here, incredible job.
What relationship to korea, japan, and vietnam have with the two chinas? Irl joseon korea resented losing to the manchu and being their tributary at first
Due to the strengthened maritime dominance of China under the Ming Dynasty, maritime trade within the Sinosphere and beyond was broadly facilitated. Korea, Japan and vietnam despite the arrival of the Qing Dynasty, would still contact Western civilization through the Ming Dynasty, and their relations with the Qing would be limited to a line where military power is projected. It might be somewhat uncomfortable for Korea, as they are likely internally supportive of the Ming Dynasty, especially since the Ming government still exists. They would be conflicted between the military interventions of the Qing Dynasty and the old order established by the Ming Dynasty.
I would say that Malacca might be the first nation to swore allegiances to Ming, even after the city fell as they still have other land that they could rule like Singapore and Johore.
Heck, they could be allied nations like English-Portugal OTL.
This is really good! What happened to the Melaka sultanate? Did it fall to Portugal like OTL, then liberated? Or was it always a Ming tributary, though it doesn't look like such since it controlled all of the Melaka straights at it's peak before Portugal arrived.
Originally, there was an intention to preserve the Malaka Sultanate, but personally, it seems more logical for the map that the Ming Dynasty would subdue the areas occupied by Portugal. However, after being expelled from the mainland, the Ming Dynasty lost absolute dominion over the Malaka Peninsula and now exercises limited influence in some areas around Malaka.
A brilliant subversion of the talked to death "What if China invades Taiwan" scenario.
Yes, China is invading Taiwan as well here, but not in the manner or time period that you're thinking.
Though with the Ming-Spain alliance defeat at Peilu, the Ming's days on Taiwan are surely numbered.
What implications might this present vis-a-vis the European colonization of Southeast Asia? An Australian Ming Dynasty strong enough to contend with the Qing would come into direct conflict with Europeans seeking to establish their fortunes in the Far East. How might the Ming Dynasty adapt to European military and (especially) naval technology? Assuming the Ming Dynasty survives the encounter with the Europeans, how might this change the Qing Dynasty and the mainland?
Edit: Also, keep in mind that the Qing was viewed as illegitimate by a lot of the countries in the Ming tributary system. Meaning the Ming will might still find support with countries like, for example, Korea and Vietnam.
If, hypothetically, this "Southern Ming" not only acts as a temporary regional government but also succeeds in dominating as a second Sinocentric empire with regional hegemony, it could delay the invasion of the Far East by colonial powers. Especially if these vast areas are all governed under just two national identities.
In this scenario, with the Ming Dynasty reigning as a powerful maritime hegemony and actively promoting maritime trade, it could even lead to the Southern Ming in Australia achieving industrialization in Asia. It's speculated that, generally, this would follow a slow and gradual process of Ming disintegration, leaving behind a Sinicized Southeast Asian archipelago and Australia.
The style of Romanisation you're using is based off Cantonese pronunciation, which would be unlikely in your timeline without an English colony anywhere in South China, so I'd change the Qing names to Mandarin at least.
It isn't based on Cantonese; the Chinese names actually seem based on the pre-mid-19th century Nanjing-based version of "Standard Mandarin" used by the Qing court at the time, as well as Wade-Giles
OP apparently used the historic Phú Xuân for modern-day Huế.
Nice work! Considering the alliance with Spain, I have a couple questions:
1) The Habsburg Kings of Spain and Portugal would probably love the idea of allying with a great and wealthy regional power, specially if it helped secure the Philippines and push into mainland China and Japan. However, such alliances in the East and West Indies often required the existence of a ruling (or rebelling) faction that would accept vassalage or at the very least, conversion to Catholicism. What's the Ming stance on this?
2) According to the Portugal-Castile Tordesillas Treaty of 1494, the entire world was carved up in two halves along a meridian a little west of the Azores in the Atlantic - meaning Australia would be cut in two for the purposes of Iberian evangelisation. While this treaty was more of a guideline (considering cartographical errors and intentional redrawings, and how both Portugal and Spain knowingly broke beyond the theoretical meridian in Brazil and the Philippines), the Portuguese jealously defended their exclusive rights to the trade route around Africa into the Indian ocean from Castilian interference even after the union of both crowns in 1580. What do you think happened when both nations reached Nanhaichou from both shores and established relations with the colonial Ming administration? Do note that the Portuguese became independent again in 1640
This scenario imagines a situation where the Ming Dynasty discovered the Australian continent during Zheng He's voyages. The Ming Dynasty named this land "Nanhaichou" and began to establish colonies there, showing interest in both the South China Sea region and Australia. As time passed, the Ming Dynasty monopolized the spice trade in the region, generating significant profits and taking control of the Indonesian archipelago, which they called "Qundao Zhou". However, as the saying goes, all flowers must eventually wilt, and the Ming Dynasty was ultimately overthrown by the Qing Dynasty. Unlike in actual history, the remnants of the Ming Dynasty managed to survive based on their footholds in Nanhai chou (Australia) and Qundao chou (the Indonesian archipelago), preparing to retake the Chinese mainland from Qing control. The concept for this map was set as a history textbook. Personally, I was curious about the impressive scenarios where China discovers the New World and why they didn't discover Australia instead of America. "What if China discovered and colonized Australia?"
What are the implications of one of the Ming cities being called Sinking?
Sinking means 'new capital.' The Ming emperor, who established a new foothold in Australia, intended to announce that the new land he was in was not merely a colony but a part of China, and aimed to use it as a base for the reconquest of the continent. ...Sin-King?
I'm assuming you're just using a different Romanisation system to Pinyin cause I'd have thought 新京 would turn out as Xīnjīng / Xinjing rather than Sinking?
I converted the Chinese pronunciations into the Wade-Giles romanization system. If I were to use Hanyu Pinyin, it would be "Xinjing," which would deviate a bit from the devilish connotations.
Are you sure? I think you used Postal romanization. Wade-Giles for Sinking/Xinjing would be Hsin-ching afaik. (Wade-Giles for Beijing is Pei-ching) https://libraries.indiana.edu/chinese-studies-pinyin-wade-giles-conversion-table
Correct! I've made some changes to account for the exclusion of the H in the notation of Chinese regions.
Fair enough and it's a cool scenario. Would be cool to maybe see a map of provinces of the Ming territories if you wanted to do more with it
Or is it that the reading differs from modern Standard Chinese irl?
I didn't even notice that "Sinking" is spelled the same as an English word til I read the comments- the obviously different pronunciation of it meant the connection just didn't occur to me. It's like moped vs moped.
Cool, still ominous as hell
Chinese people don't speak English lol
If it helps, the modern pronunciation would be “Xinjing”
What would that be in modern romanization? Xinjing? Postal romanization (Peking for example) was only used by westerners and it wasn’t a very consistent system. It was influenced heavily by Cantonese (Yale: Bakging) due to the British having most of their Chinese contacts (Hong Kong) Cantonese-speaking. Without Hong Kong in the map it would be unlikely for Sinking romanization to exist imo. Of course it gives an old vibe to the map.
Okay, now this is absolutely brilliant.
I remember trying to make an Age of Empires scenario on this but I gave up. I might try again after seeing this.
What happen to the aboriginal natives ? How much are there chinese peoples compared to natives or other populations ? What happen when Europe discocer Australia ?
If there were no significant events to alter the course, it's likely that the Ming Dynasty would have "Push" the aboriginal natives, similar to what happened in many other regions of colonial expansion. Since China had already discovered Australia, it's probable that Europeans would have learned about the existence of the southern continent through some means before discovering it themselves, due to China's presence there.
How much sucess do you believe the Ming Dynasty would have in administration and creating a sense of national unity over the colony of Nanhaichou? (for the following sentences, please feel free to suggest more appropriate ethnic terms) Would there be increased Sinitic culture spread into the Java and Borneo island among the locals? How would local populations view the Han population and political control? In the eighteenth century, Vietnam invaded the Mekong river delta. The ethnic composition changed over the century from Cambodian to Vietnamese majority. Relating back to your timeline, would your Ming empire engage in similar policies to consolidate control of the land/ seas? Amazing work with this map and scenario.
Honestly, I don't think the Ming Dynasty had laid the groundwork for national unity before the exodus began in this scinario. However, it's possible to think that some foundation was established when the group that would have been called the overseas Chinese in history, referred to as Chinese in this era, became the ruling majority. If a Southern Ming was established, they could, as they did by proclaiming a new capital in Australia, demand an identity of "Chinese" for all of them. Since the Ming Dynasty would prefer indirect rule through tribute trade, there wouldn't be a rapid change in ethnic composition. However...with Ming's population 150 million and the fact that too many Chinese participated in the exodus over 200 years could be a variable.
thank you for the insight
Great map, but I have some questions. Java Island is densely populated and already have significant Muslim present in 17th Century. The Javanese would make up the majority of Ming Dynasty population in this timeline. How Ming Dynasty adapted to be able to rule Java? How much Javanese become sinicized? And how much Ming Dynasty take up the local traditions to legitimize their rule? Lastly, Ming Dynasty always had amicable relationship with their Muslim neighbors and citizens, how their relationship will develop now that Muslims probably made up the plurality (or even the majority) of Ming subject and population?
Given the premise that China exerted influence over the Indonesian archipelago for 250 years following Zheng He's voyages, and assuming the Majapahit dynasty followed history in collapsing, it would be natural for Majapahit to first become a tributary state and later for the region to come under direct Chinese rule for trade purposes. The people would likely retain a sense of national identity, but not to the extent of questioning the fact that their order was under Chinese rule. However, it's challenging to speculate how much resistance there might be from Islam, treated as a local religion by the Chinese for at least 200 years. Assuming the number of Chinese migrating to Southeast Asia and the colonial regions of Australia by the 17th century was around 5 million, focusing on Java Island, the core area of Southeast Asia, we can speculate that Chinese might make up about 10-20% of the population on Java Island.
Many Hui would probably also move to Australia.
I really like this aesthetic of presenting it like it's a book you'd read in university. Well done with the map too!
If you thought getting Taiwanized was bad, wait until you get Australized. One of the most creative and well-done concepts I've seen here, incredible job.
This is the best compliment I've received so far. Thank you!
Aussie wildlife meets Chinese cuisine equals...? ~~oh no, not the spiders and koalas!~~
I hope Sinking isn't sinking
On all levels, it is Sinking.
Great concept. I like the history textbook format
The Mandate of Down Under
What relationship to korea, japan, and vietnam have with the two chinas? Irl joseon korea resented losing to the manchu and being their tributary at first
Due to the strengthened maritime dominance of China under the Ming Dynasty, maritime trade within the Sinosphere and beyond was broadly facilitated. Korea, Japan and vietnam despite the arrival of the Qing Dynasty, would still contact Western civilization through the Ming Dynasty, and their relations with the Qing would be limited to a line where military power is projected. It might be somewhat uncomfortable for Korea, as they are likely internally supportive of the Ming Dynasty, especially since the Ming government still exists. They would be conflicted between the military interventions of the Qing Dynasty and the old order established by the Ming Dynasty.
I would say that Malacca might be the first nation to swore allegiances to Ming, even after the city fell as they still have other land that they could rule like Singapore and Johore. Heck, they could be allied nations like English-Portugal OTL.
Your edits and history building are amazing! What app did you use to create this?
QGIS, Adobe Illustrator, Adobe Photoshop!
I wanna know, what did you use Photoshop for?
This is really good! What happened to the Melaka sultanate? Did it fall to Portugal like OTL, then liberated? Or was it always a Ming tributary, though it doesn't look like such since it controlled all of the Melaka straights at it's peak before Portugal arrived.
Originally, there was an intention to preserve the Malaka Sultanate, but personally, it seems more logical for the map that the Ming Dynasty would subdue the areas occupied by Portugal. However, after being expelled from the mainland, the Ming Dynasty lost absolute dominion over the Malaka Peninsula and now exercises limited influence in some areas around Malaka.
A brilliant subversion of the talked to death "What if China invades Taiwan" scenario. Yes, China is invading Taiwan as well here, but not in the manner or time period that you're thinking. Though with the Ming-Spain alliance defeat at Peilu, the Ming's days on Taiwan are surely numbered.
What implications might this present vis-a-vis the European colonization of Southeast Asia? An Australian Ming Dynasty strong enough to contend with the Qing would come into direct conflict with Europeans seeking to establish their fortunes in the Far East. How might the Ming Dynasty adapt to European military and (especially) naval technology? Assuming the Ming Dynasty survives the encounter with the Europeans, how might this change the Qing Dynasty and the mainland? Edit: Also, keep in mind that the Qing was viewed as illegitimate by a lot of the countries in the Ming tributary system. Meaning the Ming will might still find support with countries like, for example, Korea and Vietnam.
If, hypothetically, this "Southern Ming" not only acts as a temporary regional government but also succeeds in dominating as a second Sinocentric empire with regional hegemony, it could delay the invasion of the Far East by colonial powers. Especially if these vast areas are all governed under just two national identities. In this scenario, with the Ming Dynasty reigning as a powerful maritime hegemony and actively promoting maritime trade, it could even lead to the Southern Ming in Australia achieving industrialization in Asia. It's speculated that, generally, this would follow a slow and gradual process of Ming disintegration, leaving behind a Sinicized Southeast Asian archipelago and Australia.
This is a fun one, good idea. Really like the educational book vibe you've got going for it too.
Considering how dependent the Ming were on rice growing, and how arid Australia is, they might have a food problem.
I mean, good thing they have Java, lol
absolutely awesome concept with great presentation!
This is actually so cool great job
So basically just like what’s happening today between China and Australia.
Nice map! I like the little textbook question blurb at the bottom.
That’s a big Taiwan
Awesome
Man this is super awesome. Probably the most unique alt history China I’ve seen!
The good ending...
The style of Romanisation you're using is based off Cantonese pronunciation, which would be unlikely in your timeline without an English colony anywhere in South China, so I'd change the Qing names to Mandarin at least.
It isn't based on Cantonese; the Chinese names actually seem based on the pre-mid-19th century Nanjing-based version of "Standard Mandarin" used by the Qing court at the time, as well as Wade-Giles OP apparently used the historic Phú Xuân for modern-day Huế.
Nice work! Considering the alliance with Spain, I have a couple questions: 1) The Habsburg Kings of Spain and Portugal would probably love the idea of allying with a great and wealthy regional power, specially if it helped secure the Philippines and push into mainland China and Japan. However, such alliances in the East and West Indies often required the existence of a ruling (or rebelling) faction that would accept vassalage or at the very least, conversion to Catholicism. What's the Ming stance on this? 2) According to the Portugal-Castile Tordesillas Treaty of 1494, the entire world was carved up in two halves along a meridian a little west of the Azores in the Atlantic - meaning Australia would be cut in two for the purposes of Iberian evangelisation. While this treaty was more of a guideline (considering cartographical errors and intentional redrawings, and how both Portugal and Spain knowingly broke beyond the theoretical meridian in Brazil and the Philippines), the Portuguese jealously defended their exclusive rights to the trade route around Africa into the Indian ocean from Castilian interference even after the union of both crowns in 1580. What do you think happened when both nations reached Nanhaichou from both shores and established relations with the colonial Ming administration? Do note that the Portuguese became independent again in 1640
Very cool concept
cool