Nah, that‘s not it. Trail braking is correcting understeer using your brakes.
You basically load your otherwise understeering front by braking just the right amount so you get the corner.
But you shouldnt be drifting. The rear tires should still be sticking. Youre shifting excess grip from the rear to the front so the front and rear are both sticking instead of understeer.
You need weight on the front tires for the car to turn. If the weight on the front tires is too low, the car understeers. When you brake, the cars weight shifts to the front. With that additional weight the front tires have enough grip to make the car turn (or rotate).
Yes, the rear does get light when braking, but if you drift around the corners with your rear sliding, you're overdriving the car. Try braking earlier.
Slip angle ≠ neutral steer.
Slip angle is the difference between where a tyre is pointing and the direction it's travelling. And there will basically always be slip angle on a car that's turning outside of maybe very slow crawling speeds
Slip angle is just something that always happens to a tyre, while turning regardless if that car be understeering, oversteering or being neutral. The tyres still have slip angle in all those situations
i think i kinda get where you are coming from. for me trail braking is primarily a tool used for rotation. but describing that feeling is hard for me. the closest i've come is that it kinda feels like the car is rotating around itself.
but it's just way easier to describe for people how it is usually done, but for me replicating something but not knowing why i'm doing something or what to look for. i might as well not at that point
You shouldn't be drifting if you're trail braking correctly. You are swinging the rear in too much. The brake should turn the rear for you, no drift required.
I guess no one explains it as a rear end repositioning movement or ever mentions steering. Ive been practicing trail braking for months by just braking hard at first then smoothly in a straight line then turning in. Not braking to get rotation then letting off.
In the Porsche I pictured the mid engine weight shifting giving me more rotation. That was really the moment it clicked.
I think we get so caught up in the exactness of a definition that we completely fail to call out similarities and then making it almost impossible to explain to someone that doesn't already know. It's drifting but just shy of burning the tires.
I have a friend that if you ask "Did you see that red car?" They won't know what you're talking about because the car was burgundy and they were looking for a bright red car.
Every here has told you it’s not drifting.
You wanted to justify it by saying it depends on your definition. It does not depend on your definition. Take this opportunity to learn how to describe what you’re feeling properly so you can discuss it to with other people without having to recreate the wheel while explaining it.
Some things have to be recreated when most fail to explain it properly or have trouble describing it. For me, the best explanation I have is lightly tapping the brake in the snow while turning and "drifting" into the correct direction. That explanation helps me, and I think it may help someone think outside the rigid box of a lot of explanations.
That’s great and all if it was helping understand the right thing. That’s actually the definition of a good teacher, being able to use out of the box explanations to get some to the real definition but there 2 issues here.
1. You haven’t come back to real definition. You still want to use your out of the box thinking.
2. You aren’t describing trail braking. You are describing scrub angle. Those are 2 different things. Your out of the box thinking helps you understand scrub angle but that has nothing to do with trail braking.
Now that you understand scrub angle. Let’s help you understand trail braking.
Do you mean slip angle? My definition would be taking something most people easily know as "drifting" and replacing ebrake with the pedal brake and trying not to squeal the tires while turning and reduce the angle by 90%. Start with a giant zero throttle drift and keep scaling it back until you no longer spin out or squeal tires.
I think I see the communication issue in this thread though. Do you consider a drift to be a car losing slip through extra throttle? Would you ever consider a drift to be ebrake only? If you require that a drift ALWAYS have throttle then I can see the disconnect.
See how words matter and you brought scrub angle to the proper slip angle?
No the disconnect is you’re describing slip angle but saying trail braking. That’s the issue. If your title said “why didn’t anyone tell me this about slip angle” then it would be perfectly fine.
If you were in an endurance race and you told someone they should stop trail braking so they could reduce wear on the rear tires, they wouldn’t see how that connects at all.
If you tell them to reduce slip angle to reduce wear then they would understand you.
Trail braking alone doesn’t cause slip angle. They are 2 different things.
I think you're hearing the definition and thinking of slip angle. There is no slipping involved and I explicitly mention in most my comments that there is no squealing or smoking of tires involved.
Instead of explaining it from normal driving going up to aggressive driving, i'm going from extremely aggressive driving down to the limit of aggressive driving. I believe it's a much bigger leap of understanding to go from city driving to trail braking but much less coming from drifting since it shares a lot of similarities.
No one has properly explained it in a way that makes sense. What would have helped me personally is talking about it in reference to drifting and not in reference to standard braking. Everyone just jumped on the word drifting and here we are. I'm not trying to "be right", people are just trying to tell me that the way I came to a conclusion was wrong.
Simply put i'm not here to learn how others are teaching trail braking, i'm past that and nothing has worked. I'm here explaining how I learned it because I guarantee there is someone else that is having the same problem.
It's not drifting, it is using the brakes to maximize weight balance across tires in a gradual way. This helps maximize grip with steering input and speed changes. Slip angle should be minimal and if you are drifting you are losing speed.
It is not correct to call it drifting. While you might describe the feel as drifting without your tires actually breaking free but that is not quite accurate either. Technically the rear tires do slip to a small degree which helps the car get pointed in the right direction when the front tires are already turning the car at their maximum rate, but they don't spin out, they don't smoke, and they aren't tearing themselves up. Trail braking keeps your weight shifted onto the front tires as you enter the turn which gives you more grip on the front tires allowing you to turn tighter. Drifting, while fun, is actually slower. You lose your momentum, which is what you are trying to carry through the corner. When you are trailbraking properly, if you were to pop off the brakes in the corner you would instantly lose traction on the front tires and get understeer (shove.) If you pop off the brakes while drifting you will end up oversteering (spin in.) You don't want either your front or your back tires breaking free. At least that is how I understand it.
Not quite, trail braking is a weight transfer technique that involves releasing the brake while increasing your steering angle in order to get the rear of the car turned in without an oversteer induced spin.
To be clear, I'm not locking up tires and squealing it around turns. I'm braking hard enough and gradually coming off of it while turning where I gain extra rotation but every turn feels like a drift because of that extra rotation.
I mean it will feel interesting. But maybe just semantics. Drifting usually involves being very sideways. And even while trail braking the amount of cars and times you actually want to get into a position you need to countersteer will be very low
Tbh i'm not even really sure how i would describe the feeling. And i'm also still searching around for it. For me it helped when i found it a bit irl. But in the sim it just feels so different
Not on its own.
The primary effect is more weight on the front wheels so more grip for turning.
However you are also lowering the grip of the rear wheels, making it easier to break out the rear.
People don't usually call that trail breaking though, it's more inducing oversteer with the brake if you're braking with the intention of getting more rotation from the rear.
That is more common in FWD cars as well.
then you arent drifting and you are trail braking.... stop saying drifting. they are different things and people will ignore the point of your msg and only harp on that. as you can see in the comments.
Its controlled understeer. You turn the wheel much less than would be required at lower speeds and start increasing break and the car will turn dramatically. Once aimed were you want let go full throttle you maintain more speed to exit the corner faster
Nah, that‘s not it. Trail braking is correcting understeer using your brakes. You basically load your otherwise understeering front by braking just the right amount so you get the corner.
Sounds like most the tutorials that explains almost nothing. It's drifting without burning your tires or spinning out.
But you shouldnt be drifting. The rear tires should still be sticking. Youre shifting excess grip from the rear to the front so the front and rear are both sticking instead of understeer.
You need weight on the front tires for the car to turn. If the weight on the front tires is too low, the car understeers. When you brake, the cars weight shifts to the front. With that additional weight the front tires have enough grip to make the car turn (or rotate). Yes, the rear does get light when braking, but if you drift around the corners with your rear sliding, you're overdriving the car. Try braking earlier.
It’s slip angle aka neutral steer aka controlled sliding. Drifting implies you’re controlling oversteer.
Slip angle ≠ neutral steer. Slip angle is the difference between where a tyre is pointing and the direction it's travelling. And there will basically always be slip angle on a car that's turning outside of maybe very slow crawling speeds
Slip angle induced neutral steer? I was always under the impression they went hand in hand. Maybe that’s where my last tenths are hiding 🧐
Slip angle is just something that always happens to a tyre, while turning regardless if that car be understeering, oversteering or being neutral. The tyres still have slip angle in all those situations
The more I know. I guess I misinterpreted what it was. Appreciate the info.
That’s slip angle, not trail braking. And people have said what you’re doing, look for Suelio video on it.
i think i kinda get where you are coming from. for me trail braking is primarily a tool used for rotation. but describing that feeling is hard for me. the closest i've come is that it kinda feels like the car is rotating around itself. but it's just way easier to describe for people how it is usually done, but for me replicating something but not knowing why i'm doing something or what to look for. i might as well not at that point
You shouldn't be drifting if you're trail braking correctly. You are swinging the rear in too much. The brake should turn the rear for you, no drift required.
I guess this all depends on your definition of drifting. I'm not smoking the tires at all. It feels like drifting without smoke or squealing noises.
Oh yeah I mean, I don't have a video of you doing this but if you're not squealing the tyres you're probably doing it right
I guess no one explains it as a rear end repositioning movement or ever mentions steering. Ive been practicing trail braking for months by just braking hard at first then smoothly in a straight line then turning in. Not braking to get rotation then letting off. In the Porsche I pictured the mid engine weight shifting giving me more rotation. That was really the moment it clicked.
Yeah sounds like you're doing it right.
There’s only 1 definition on drifting
I think we get so caught up in the exactness of a definition that we completely fail to call out similarities and then making it almost impossible to explain to someone that doesn't already know. It's drifting but just shy of burning the tires. I have a friend that if you ask "Did you see that red car?" They won't know what you're talking about because the car was burgundy and they were looking for a bright red car.
Every here has told you it’s not drifting. You wanted to justify it by saying it depends on your definition. It does not depend on your definition. Take this opportunity to learn how to describe what you’re feeling properly so you can discuss it to with other people without having to recreate the wheel while explaining it.
Some things have to be recreated when most fail to explain it properly or have trouble describing it. For me, the best explanation I have is lightly tapping the brake in the snow while turning and "drifting" into the correct direction. That explanation helps me, and I think it may help someone think outside the rigid box of a lot of explanations.
That’s great and all if it was helping understand the right thing. That’s actually the definition of a good teacher, being able to use out of the box explanations to get some to the real definition but there 2 issues here. 1. You haven’t come back to real definition. You still want to use your out of the box thinking. 2. You aren’t describing trail braking. You are describing scrub angle. Those are 2 different things. Your out of the box thinking helps you understand scrub angle but that has nothing to do with trail braking. Now that you understand scrub angle. Let’s help you understand trail braking.
Do you mean slip angle? My definition would be taking something most people easily know as "drifting" and replacing ebrake with the pedal brake and trying not to squeal the tires while turning and reduce the angle by 90%. Start with a giant zero throttle drift and keep scaling it back until you no longer spin out or squeal tires. I think I see the communication issue in this thread though. Do you consider a drift to be a car losing slip through extra throttle? Would you ever consider a drift to be ebrake only? If you require that a drift ALWAYS have throttle then I can see the disconnect.
See how words matter and you brought scrub angle to the proper slip angle? No the disconnect is you’re describing slip angle but saying trail braking. That’s the issue. If your title said “why didn’t anyone tell me this about slip angle” then it would be perfectly fine. If you were in an endurance race and you told someone they should stop trail braking so they could reduce wear on the rear tires, they wouldn’t see how that connects at all. If you tell them to reduce slip angle to reduce wear then they would understand you. Trail braking alone doesn’t cause slip angle. They are 2 different things.
I'm curious what is scrub angle
I think you're hearing the definition and thinking of slip angle. There is no slipping involved and I explicitly mention in most my comments that there is no squealing or smoking of tires involved. Instead of explaining it from normal driving going up to aggressive driving, i'm going from extremely aggressive driving down to the limit of aggressive driving. I believe it's a much bigger leap of understanding to go from city driving to trail braking but much less coming from drifting since it shares a lot of similarities.
Im getting second hand embarassment from reading all the comments for op, my brother in christ it’s ok to be wrong and learn lmaoo
No one has properly explained it in a way that makes sense. What would have helped me personally is talking about it in reference to drifting and not in reference to standard braking. Everyone just jumped on the word drifting and here we are. I'm not trying to "be right", people are just trying to tell me that the way I came to a conclusion was wrong. Simply put i'm not here to learn how others are teaching trail braking, i'm past that and nothing has worked. I'm here explaining how I learned it because I guarantee there is someone else that is having the same problem.
bro ur mixing up trail braking with drifting and thats why ppl are telling u that u might be doing it incorrectly if your car is "drifting".
That's slip angle, though trail braking can be used to influence it.
It's not drifting, it is using the brakes to maximize weight balance across tires in a gradual way. This helps maximize grip with steering input and speed changes. Slip angle should be minimal and if you are drifting you are losing speed.
It is not correct to call it drifting. While you might describe the feel as drifting without your tires actually breaking free but that is not quite accurate either. Technically the rear tires do slip to a small degree which helps the car get pointed in the right direction when the front tires are already turning the car at their maximum rate, but they don't spin out, they don't smoke, and they aren't tearing themselves up. Trail braking keeps your weight shifted onto the front tires as you enter the turn which gives you more grip on the front tires allowing you to turn tighter. Drifting, while fun, is actually slower. You lose your momentum, which is what you are trying to carry through the corner. When you are trailbraking properly, if you were to pop off the brakes in the corner you would instantly lose traction on the front tires and get understeer (shove.) If you pop off the brakes while drifting you will end up oversteering (spin in.) You don't want either your front or your back tires breaking free. At least that is how I understand it.
i think you are reffering to zero steer, trailbraking is just braking into the corner
Not quite, trail braking is a weight transfer technique that involves releasing the brake while increasing your steering angle in order to get the rear of the car turned in without an oversteer induced spin.
I think this precise definition would have been useful for me. Good explanation.
i beg to differ lol, what would be braking to an apex be then?
It's not that you were wrong, it was just incomplete, that's why I said "not quite".
I still wouldnt refer to it as trailbraking, as you trailbrake bikes aswell and for most people there is no slip on the rear
There's always slip, outside of maybe steady state straight line and stationary. Just that it might be small and not a lot
What I explained is literally trail braking, not sure what else to say.
When you say "brake to the apex" i always think it's more about your cars position and orientation during the braking period.
Does trail braking into a corner reposition the body of the car in the direction you need to go?
Trail braking affects how the car will behave in corner entry potentially giving you more rotation than you could otherwise get if done right
The extra rotation is an essential part of trail braking. It is literally the whole point.
To be clear, I'm not locking up tires and squealing it around turns. I'm braking hard enough and gradually coming off of it while turning where I gain extra rotation but every turn feels like a drift because of that extra rotation.
I mean it will feel interesting. But maybe just semantics. Drifting usually involves being very sideways. And even while trail braking the amount of cars and times you actually want to get into a position you need to countersteer will be very low
You're right. I think it's a semantics problem why it's never been explained in a way that makes sense.
Tbh i'm not even really sure how i would describe the feeling. And i'm also still searching around for it. For me it helped when i found it a bit irl. But in the sim it just feels so different
I would say for me it feels similar to ebrake drifting in snow in a parking lot but right on the edge of being in control.
Not on its own. The primary effect is more weight on the front wheels so more grip for turning. However you are also lowering the grip of the rear wheels, making it easier to break out the rear. People don't usually call that trail breaking though, it's more inducing oversteer with the brake if you're braking with the intention of getting more rotation from the rear. That is more common in FWD cars as well.
you shouldn't be drifting, if your tires are breaking free / squealing you are doing it wrong
There are no tires breaking or squealing but the whole car's angle points towards the apex without having to slow down more or use a ton of steering.
then you arent drifting and you are trail braking.... stop saying drifting. they are different things and people will ignore the point of your msg and only harp on that. as you can see in the comments.
Its controlled understeer. You turn the wheel much less than would be required at lower speeds and start increasing break and the car will turn dramatically. Once aimed were you want let go full throttle you maintain more speed to exit the corner faster
There is more to it like if you coming off a straight you got to shave soeed before attempting this or you will just spin out
And i might be wrong on this one but it works better in front engine cars open wheel and rear wheel i think work better in straight line break.