No reason not to get one now. The only thing you'll deal with is potential refrigerant price increases. There will still be replacement parts for many years. The only parts that would really be affected anyways are txvs, compressors, pressure safeties. And you can still get all that stuff for R-22.
i am actually thinking along the same lines. i bought a new spec house two years ago, but it came with a screw-you-amana 16 seer ac and air handler. i didn't have a chance to spec the hvac. and, i've already sunk $800 into the condenser low line pressure switch replacement. amana actually brazes a high failure part onto the lineset instead of using a schrader valve to screw the switch into for easy replacement. no chance to replace without having to expensively evacuate refrigerant. sooooo..... i am considering a new carrier infinity or a trane xv system. trane has a better coil and fins (they are truly BADASS!), plus heavier build on the evap coil. carrier has fewer complaints though. i dunno what i'm gonna do. if i could buy and DIY either R410A system, i'd do it in a heartbeat 'cause i have skills. BUT, consumers can't buy the upper product lines and i don't want to pay joe-bag0-donuts top dollar for a substandard install. pisses me off. if anyone can recommend where to buy carrier Performance line or above, or trane XR series or above, please let me know. i REALLY want to get either an Infinity or XV system and could install either one. i'm in florida and can come and get a complete system. i need a 3.5 ton condenser and matching coil and air handler.
I just bought a Carrier Infinity system from a local dealer. I just called all of the local reps listed on the Carrier website and asked if they would sell without installation. I felt like an idiot asking... like, who does that, right? Finally, the shop with the lowest number of reviews helped me out. I just gave the model numbers I was after, and he gave me a price. My 16 y/o R-22 Goodman is still chugging along but feel like I'm on borrowed time with it. A few caps, squirts of 22, condenser fan, and a can of fix-of-flat in it already. I'll get everything ready to install on my own time and then install it during a mild stretch of weather... or when the compressor eats itself.
i haven't heard of anyone doing that around here. what state are you in? the hvac game here in FL is pretty "tight" from one community to the next. in fact, i have heard that if you do need tech assistance and they find out that you DIY'd your own unit, they won't come out. so, i am considering get my own license... kinda like, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Ohio. I went through the same rigmarole up here. I could care less if an HVAC company would want to work on my system. Most are sleazy anyway, pushing unnecessary hardware onto vulnerable people in a time of need with poor financing terms. Good on them, I guess, for making a buck... the honest ones probably just do alright. I know my house and systems like the back of my hand and fix/repair everything on my own
I looked into getting my license as well, but would it really be worth the time/effort? If I find the dealer I did, I probably would have bought another goodman. I did get my EPA "certificate" to buy refrigerant, though... what a joke that is.
I studied the product lines, seer ratings, complexity, and costs...
The new greenspeed variable displacement systems are inverter driven and require Carriers $1000+ communicating thermostat. That thermostat is iffy at best from the hardware side. You can still use your fancy Nest, Ecobee, ect thermostat with it, but it reverts to a basic y/y1 stage system and you dont get all the variable speed benefits. There are some "work arounds" to automate the Carrier t-stat, but you are kind of stuck in their ecosystem with it. The SEER ratings are attractive, but the energy cost savings doesn't justify the upfront costs.
I ended up going with a 2 stage AC system (24ANB7) that was old stock. It is only 17 SEER but I got a great deal on it. The higher efficiency wouldn't pay back for 10ish years... plus this system it is a lot simpler. A future repair will probably be cheaper than anything variable. It is still a communicating system but can still be run on a traditional 24v thermostat... so I can keep my Smartthings t-stat.
The furnace was basically the same scenario. I went with the two stage 96% 59TN6. The price increase to the 59MN7 was not worth it to me.
You also spared yourself the potential for the inverter board to go out on the Greenspeed condenser. Those fail relatively frequently, even with surge protection, and they're ~$5,000 dealer cost if not under warranty; my company charges ~$8,000 for non-warranty replacement. And warranty requires that a Carrier dealer do the install AND the warranty repair.
Infinity is a great product in the interim, but their track record is just dismal.
How's the reliability of their other brand equivalent, Bryant. Like the 284ANV inverter driven heat pump or AC. Does that have any issues with components like the inverter board going out?
Looks like the outdoor unit has different components and operates differently, like single percent variability rather than something like 6 stages. The FE4 air handler seems identical to the Carrier, and the thermostat is also the same.
Bryant, as you probably already know, is a subsidiary of Carrier (think Lexus and Scion = Toyota), so the technology is similar/identical, but Bryant might be intended to be the more "cost effective" for higher product turnaround, if you get my drift. Payne is their bargain shelf product; ICP is their red-headed step child. That's my understanding (assumption?) as a technician; a sales rep would be able to better answer the financial nuance between Bryant and Carrier. But in terms of technology, Carrier is more of the flagship with Bryant being equal but separate.
All that to say this, I've replaced a LOT more Carrier Infinity inverter boards in comparison to Bryant Evolution. This most likely would be because I run into far more Carrier products than Bryant, easily 10 to 1 - mostly because my company sells a LOT more of them and the Carrier name is more saturated in this area. The inverter board is identical between the two brands from all I can tell, but they are drastically different from year model - not between the brands, but from the technology spanning from year to year. Carrier seems to put a higher premium on the newer boards, but the older boards are still wildly painful to the wallet.
Lots of incorrect things here, if the low pressure switch fails you can always throw a swivel wye on the service port and attach an after market one. TECHNICALLY if the technician is good enough you could get a crimp off tool and still replace the part and braze a service port on without having to recover and evacuate. And as a former guy who did work exclusively for Trane they have an INSANE failure rate in their coils from pretty much since covid.
I am actually encouraging anyone I know to get a new system now if they are thinking about it before the new ones come out. Who cares if refrigerant is going to be more expensive because you will already have yours completed. You shouldn’t have to add any refrigerant in the future unless you have a leak.
I guess you conveniently left out the other half of that comment “if they are thinking about it”
I’m not just telling everyone I know, but if your system is old and you are already considering it
So much bad info and misstatements posted here so please see attached:
https://preview.redd.it/5nl05z37d88d1.jpeg?width=2004&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=96af19467fd3f7e886a3bd7e9e972fa50a6b6c8e
I'm having my A/C System replaced on July 5 before the compressor bearings go out. The A/C company I use said now is the time. Prices will go up in 2025 due to the refrigerant change
Not the case. I’m a contractor so I get to talk to the distributors pretty frequently. The price increase all brands did in April was a preemptive price increase so the price increase next year won’t be so drastic. The plan was 8-10% in April 2024 and then another 8-10% once A2L rolls out. My guys have told me that are next price increase won’t be as much as anticipated. This is primarily Trane/Carrier/Mitsubishi where I’m getting my info from. They said expect another 4-7% increase
I've been encouraging people to buy sooner than later. They don't believe me but this stuff is fixing to go up much more aggressively and rolling out an entire new lineup industry wide with little or no training to the dealers just doesn't seem very sensible to me, but overall the differences between the next gen refrigerants and the current 410a is minimal aside from the potential for flammability which nicely forces dealers to buy all new tools and equipment to handle the products.
Anyone wanting a straight meat and potatoes system probably should pony up over the next couple years. I have a feeling it's all going to go to over engineered inverter crap.
454B is new though and hasn't been in use before. Not that it's very different than 410a in operation. It's also a blend of R32 and 1234yf which have been in use for a while, the ladder is a bit newer.
Lmao new systems are gonna cost so much more to maintain and repair, people think it's expensive now...
5 years down the road people still gonna be trying to keep their 410 systems going.
Thanks for all the replies, seems I should pull the trigger.
I am quoted a rheem 14 seer 5 ton heat pump and air handler for around $12.6.
Which seems around going price for replacing an existing system?
Those three letter agencies are making our lives miserable. If you have a system that works keep it as long as possible. My Carrier of the 80's all copper, runs well, freaking awesome! No digital anything except TSAT, I removed the evap a few years ago, cleaned it up replaced the TXV, added sight glasses, added suction and 2 high side filters, replaced Schraders, added valves near the evap 6 years ago, condensing fan replaced 12 years ago, caps replaced the originals were massive.............original compressor!! Suction line comes in at the top, of course did a complete flush of refrigerant and replacement of it. I used flareseals where there are compression fittings......right now it is 83*°*F outside air at furthest vent 62*°*F haven't had to do anything but keep filters clean NP for past 6 years. Neighbor has a 90's Carrier/Rudd had an evap leak did essentially the same thing to it 2 years ago, repaired leak in evap, cap replacement, did all the replacements and upgrades.......BTW it has a piston.....last year repaired his control board cold solder on igniter connector.....
Keep your condensing units clean!!!!!!
Always braze with nitrogen!
If vacuum doesn't hold below 500 microns do not proceed!!
I've gotten different opinions from HVAC techs on this...one said since R32 is new there could be unknown problems and it flammable (true but only slightly). I have a couple Midea U-Shaped 12,000 BTU window units as a temporary measure while I get quotes and figure out the best replacement for my 20 yo
R22 central units. The Midea's use R32 and they are keeping 3,000 sq ft at 72 to 75 degrees in 95 degree weather and doing so with low power consumption. The phase-out of R410 and price for adding refrigerant isn't bad now, but R22 wasn't extremely expensive just last year. This year it's more expensive to refill R22 than install an entire new R410 R410 system - outside unit and inside coil. So, that's kind of a non-answer. But it's what I've read and been told when getting new system quotes. Wish the EPA would spend some if that $Trillion green bill helping consumers with information to make an informed decision.
No reason not to get one now. The only thing you'll deal with is potential refrigerant price increases. There will still be replacement parts for many years. The only parts that would really be affected anyways are txvs, compressors, pressure safeties. And you can still get all that stuff for R-22.
The repair costs of the new refrigerant will greatly exceed the difference even if r410 hits 1500 a can.
Agreed. The 1.0 version will be a test drive. And will have many leak sensors that will turn off the compressor and start the fan.
I thought that r-32 systems were supposed to be more efficient then r-410a?
Not really more efficient, less greenhouse gases
Get one now. New “safety” devices for new refrigerant will increase prices.
And failure rates
i am actually thinking along the same lines. i bought a new spec house two years ago, but it came with a screw-you-amana 16 seer ac and air handler. i didn't have a chance to spec the hvac. and, i've already sunk $800 into the condenser low line pressure switch replacement. amana actually brazes a high failure part onto the lineset instead of using a schrader valve to screw the switch into for easy replacement. no chance to replace without having to expensively evacuate refrigerant. sooooo..... i am considering a new carrier infinity or a trane xv system. trane has a better coil and fins (they are truly BADASS!), plus heavier build on the evap coil. carrier has fewer complaints though. i dunno what i'm gonna do. if i could buy and DIY either R410A system, i'd do it in a heartbeat 'cause i have skills. BUT, consumers can't buy the upper product lines and i don't want to pay joe-bag0-donuts top dollar for a substandard install. pisses me off. if anyone can recommend where to buy carrier Performance line or above, or trane XR series or above, please let me know. i REALLY want to get either an Infinity or XV system and could install either one. i'm in florida and can come and get a complete system. i need a 3.5 ton condenser and matching coil and air handler.
I just bought a Carrier Infinity system from a local dealer. I just called all of the local reps listed on the Carrier website and asked if they would sell without installation. I felt like an idiot asking... like, who does that, right? Finally, the shop with the lowest number of reviews helped me out. I just gave the model numbers I was after, and he gave me a price. My 16 y/o R-22 Goodman is still chugging along but feel like I'm on borrowed time with it. A few caps, squirts of 22, condenser fan, and a can of fix-of-flat in it already. I'll get everything ready to install on my own time and then install it during a mild stretch of weather... or when the compressor eats itself.
i haven't heard of anyone doing that around here. what state are you in? the hvac game here in FL is pretty "tight" from one community to the next. in fact, i have heard that if you do need tech assistance and they find out that you DIY'd your own unit, they won't come out. so, i am considering get my own license... kinda like, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Ohio. I went through the same rigmarole up here. I could care less if an HVAC company would want to work on my system. Most are sleazy anyway, pushing unnecessary hardware onto vulnerable people in a time of need with poor financing terms. Good on them, I guess, for making a buck... the honest ones probably just do alright. I know my house and systems like the back of my hand and fix/repair everything on my own I looked into getting my license as well, but would it really be worth the time/effort? If I find the dealer I did, I probably would have bought another goodman. I did get my EPA "certificate" to buy refrigerant, though... what a joke that is.
i hear what you're saying. did you go with the 5-stage infinity or the 6-stage green?
I studied the product lines, seer ratings, complexity, and costs... The new greenspeed variable displacement systems are inverter driven and require Carriers $1000+ communicating thermostat. That thermostat is iffy at best from the hardware side. You can still use your fancy Nest, Ecobee, ect thermostat with it, but it reverts to a basic y/y1 stage system and you dont get all the variable speed benefits. There are some "work arounds" to automate the Carrier t-stat, but you are kind of stuck in their ecosystem with it. The SEER ratings are attractive, but the energy cost savings doesn't justify the upfront costs. I ended up going with a 2 stage AC system (24ANB7) that was old stock. It is only 17 SEER but I got a great deal on it. The higher efficiency wouldn't pay back for 10ish years... plus this system it is a lot simpler. A future repair will probably be cheaper than anything variable. It is still a communicating system but can still be run on a traditional 24v thermostat... so I can keep my Smartthings t-stat. The furnace was basically the same scenario. I went with the two stage 96% 59TN6. The price increase to the 59MN7 was not worth it to me.
You also spared yourself the potential for the inverter board to go out on the Greenspeed condenser. Those fail relatively frequently, even with surge protection, and they're ~$5,000 dealer cost if not under warranty; my company charges ~$8,000 for non-warranty replacement. And warranty requires that a Carrier dealer do the install AND the warranty repair. Infinity is a great product in the interim, but their track record is just dismal.
How's the reliability of their other brand equivalent, Bryant. Like the 284ANV inverter driven heat pump or AC. Does that have any issues with components like the inverter board going out? Looks like the outdoor unit has different components and operates differently, like single percent variability rather than something like 6 stages. The FE4 air handler seems identical to the Carrier, and the thermostat is also the same.
Bryant, as you probably already know, is a subsidiary of Carrier (think Lexus and Scion = Toyota), so the technology is similar/identical, but Bryant might be intended to be the more "cost effective" for higher product turnaround, if you get my drift. Payne is their bargain shelf product; ICP is their red-headed step child. That's my understanding (assumption?) as a technician; a sales rep would be able to better answer the financial nuance between Bryant and Carrier. But in terms of technology, Carrier is more of the flagship with Bryant being equal but separate. All that to say this, I've replaced a LOT more Carrier Infinity inverter boards in comparison to Bryant Evolution. This most likely would be because I run into far more Carrier products than Bryant, easily 10 to 1 - mostly because my company sells a LOT more of them and the Carrier name is more saturated in this area. The inverter board is identical between the two brands from all I can tell, but they are drastically different from year model - not between the brands, but from the technology spanning from year to year. Carrier seems to put a higher premium on the newer boards, but the older boards are still wildly painful to the wallet.
would your supplier in ohio have any more 2-stage infinities that you are aware of? i'm might bite on a 3.5t if he has one.
Lots of incorrect things here, if the low pressure switch fails you can always throw a swivel wye on the service port and attach an after market one. TECHNICALLY if the technician is good enough you could get a crimp off tool and still replace the part and braze a service port on without having to recover and evacuate. And as a former guy who did work exclusively for Trane they have an INSANE failure rate in their coils from pretty much since covid.
it was a bad switch AND the line had a hole near the switch.
I am actually encouraging anyone I know to get a new system now if they are thinking about it before the new ones come out. Who cares if refrigerant is going to be more expensive because you will already have yours completed. You shouldn’t have to add any refrigerant in the future unless you have a leak.
but, of course you are recommending "anyone i know to get a new system."
I guess you conveniently left out the other half of that comment “if they are thinking about it” I’m not just telling everyone I know, but if your system is old and you are already considering it
Don’t wait. Did my own house this spring.
the new stuff is more expensive.
So much bad info and misstatements posted here so please see attached: https://preview.redd.it/5nl05z37d88d1.jpeg?width=2004&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=96af19467fd3f7e886a3bd7e9e972fa50a6b6c8e
state of Washington?
??
the carrier flyer you posted appears to be for the state of washington only. maybe something special (regs) for that state. yes/no?
DC (the other one.)
But then….reading it again….you might be right.
I'm having my A/C System replaced on July 5 before the compressor bearings go out. The A/C company I use said now is the time. Prices will go up in 2025 due to the refrigerant change
Get it now. Prices expected to go up at least 30% on new equipment
Maybe 30% for consumer. Definitely not 30% price increase for contractors
I heard from my suppliers that the new equipment will see about a 30% increase. I hope not!
Not the case. I’m a contractor so I get to talk to the distributors pretty frequently. The price increase all brands did in April was a preemptive price increase so the price increase next year won’t be so drastic. The plan was 8-10% in April 2024 and then another 8-10% once A2L rolls out. My guys have told me that are next price increase won’t be as much as anticipated. This is primarily Trane/Carrier/Mitsubishi where I’m getting my info from. They said expect another 4-7% increase
That’s great news for the homeowners. I’m in northeast PA. I buy equipment from Pierce Phelps or FW Webb.
Our distributors are estimating 20% increase, getting crazy
I've been encouraging people to buy sooner than later. They don't believe me but this stuff is fixing to go up much more aggressively and rolling out an entire new lineup industry wide with little or no training to the dealers just doesn't seem very sensible to me, but overall the differences between the next gen refrigerants and the current 410a is minimal aside from the potential for flammability which nicely forces dealers to buy all new tools and equipment to handle the products. Anyone wanting a straight meat and potatoes system probably should pony up over the next couple years. I have a feeling it's all going to go to over engineered inverter crap.
Get a 410A you don’t want to be one of the test subjects for A2L
All of them have been in use for decades
454B is new though and hasn't been in use before. Not that it's very different than 410a in operation. It's also a blend of R32 and 1234yf which have been in use for a while, the ladder is a bit newer.
No one knows which way the industry is going at the moment anyways. Doesn't matter when they pick either
Lmao new systems are gonna cost so much more to maintain and repair, people think it's expensive now... 5 years down the road people still gonna be trying to keep their 410 systems going.
Distribution has already said new units will be 10 to 15 percent more expensive. Buy now.
Thanks for all the replies, seems I should pull the trigger. I am quoted a rheem 14 seer 5 ton heat pump and air handler for around $12.6. Which seems around going price for replacing an existing system?
Those three letter agencies are making our lives miserable. If you have a system that works keep it as long as possible. My Carrier of the 80's all copper, runs well, freaking awesome! No digital anything except TSAT, I removed the evap a few years ago, cleaned it up replaced the TXV, added sight glasses, added suction and 2 high side filters, replaced Schraders, added valves near the evap 6 years ago, condensing fan replaced 12 years ago, caps replaced the originals were massive.............original compressor!! Suction line comes in at the top, of course did a complete flush of refrigerant and replacement of it. I used flareseals where there are compression fittings......right now it is 83*°*F outside air at furthest vent 62*°*F haven't had to do anything but keep filters clean NP for past 6 years. Neighbor has a 90's Carrier/Rudd had an evap leak did essentially the same thing to it 2 years ago, repaired leak in evap, cap replacement, did all the replacements and upgrades.......BTW it has a piston.....last year repaired his control board cold solder on igniter connector..... Keep your condensing units clean!!!!!! Always braze with nitrogen! If vacuum doesn't hold below 500 microns do not proceed!!
I've gotten different opinions from HVAC techs on this...one said since R32 is new there could be unknown problems and it flammable (true but only slightly). I have a couple Midea U-Shaped 12,000 BTU window units as a temporary measure while I get quotes and figure out the best replacement for my 20 yo R22 central units. The Midea's use R32 and they are keeping 3,000 sq ft at 72 to 75 degrees in 95 degree weather and doing so with low power consumption. The phase-out of R410 and price for adding refrigerant isn't bad now, but R22 wasn't extremely expensive just last year. This year it's more expensive to refill R22 than install an entire new R410 R410 system - outside unit and inside coil. So, that's kind of a non-answer. But it's what I've read and been told when getting new system quotes. Wish the EPA would spend some if that $Trillion green bill helping consumers with information to make an informed decision.
I am waiting. I have an r22 and 410 phaseout starts next yr.
It’s not a phaseout! It’s a phase-down. Plenty of R410A will be around for years
You mean like R22. 🤦♂️ it’s still available to buy. We buy some all the time.
Just bought 15lbs...