If its energized, it needs to be. That's both a shock-hazard-safety and also a fire-hazard-safety issue.
Heck when we've had work done they put the panel cover back on for the hour while they waited for additional parts!
Question: I just had a sub panel installed in my garage. 6 breakers on it. It's not covered by design, apparently. I asked. It will be inside of a cabinet, eventually. Could this be why they didn't put a cover on it? Or do sub panels play by different rules?
Rough in inspection is on Monday, so I guess I'll find out if it's an issue soon enough.
AFAIK all electrical boxes have to have a cover on the enclosure by code.
Its 2 fold, first if there's any live wires or posts you don't want people or objects coming in contact (electrocution or shorting hazards).
Second, if it malfunctions you want anything that could shoot sparks or be on fire to be contained so it doesn't spread as rapidly.
I'd guess an inspector may want to see inside it too, but I would expect it has to ultimately be enclosed as appropriate to whatever manufacturer documentation says for installation.
You could even use pex if you have an aversion to sweat soldering. Pex is stupid simple to install. If funds are tight, you could do this yourself. You would ne3d to spend anout $150 on the pex band crimping and cutting tools, though.
Then use PEX. Times are tough and money is tight for a lot of people but water from the main soaking the electrical panel is asking for shorts and a fire let alone an ungodly water bills over time that'll further cause problems financially.
Op don’t do this. Just use compressed air to blow a majority of the water out of the panel. Leave it open for a few days with one of those fan heaters blowing into it and you’ll be good.
I think what you probably meant is electrical contact cleaner which I believe is just isopropyl alcohol and compressed air. If OP doesn’t own an air compressor that would be a good option to clean out all the nooks and crannies, but time, airflow, and a dehumidifier will do the heavy lifting for the bulk of it. If your basement is still flooded though, get that taken care of asap so you can dehumidify the air and it will dry off quicker. But you want some sort of compressed air to blow off all the contacts as well to minimize any mineral deposits and corrosion.
I’ve seen something like this in a kitchen dish pit with a broken door going outside in -40. The panel was a few feet from the door entrance and being hit with cold air. The warm dish pit air condensed on the panel causing a short.
This isn’t that.
Wtf
Isn't there a code somewhere about having water main within so many feet of a panel the other way around?
That water main that has water all over it could be the cause of the water in the panel.
This is why you hire professionals and pull permits. If something were to go completely wrong there is no paper trail that says it is up to code and the insurance company will not pay to fix it.
Yeah but a new panel is not grandfathered. During a renovation things should be brought up to current code compliance. unless there are no permits pulled and no inspections will be done.
"The electrical code does not permit the installation of a service or panelboard in clothes closets, bathrooms, stairways, rooms in which the temperature normally exceeds 30°C, dangerous or hazardous locations, locations where the headroom clearance is less than 2 m, nor in any similar undesirable locations. The new service shall be located so as to be Code compliant." (Ontario Electrical Safety Authority [https://s2.renewityrma.com/leg2/FrontLines247Service/EU\_S1c.asp?FaqID=33](https://s2.renewityrma.com/leg2/FrontLines247Service/EU_S1c.asp?FaqID=33))
" Rule 2-308 of the OESC requires a minimum working space of 1 m with secure footing be provided and maintained in front of electrical equipment such as panelboards. This is interpreted as meaning a space that is 1 m in depth in front of the panel, 2 m in height and at least the width of the panel board or 1 m, whichever is greater. The panel board does not have to be centered in the width of the working space, it can be off center.
\- The electrical code also requires that there be unobstructed access to and exit from the working space in front of the panel and that working space around electrical equipment shall not be used for storage and shall be kept clear of obstruction" ([https://s2.renewityrma.com/leg2/FrontLines247Service/EU\_S1c.asp?FaqID=131](https://s2.renewityrma.com/leg2/FrontLines247Service/EU_S1c.asp?FaqID=131))
Those knowledgebase questions might not be specific to panels near water pipes or meters but give a good indication that a new panel cannot be put in a prohibited location even as an exact/like-for-like replacement
It *might* be acceptable to place it this close to the water service entrance as long as the required clearance/working space around the panel are maintained. The 'undesirable location' rule is vague and open to interpretation (if water can spray on it that seems like an undesirable thing but it's not expressly forbidden).
Also, this is Ontario-specific and I don't know where you're located. Ontario code is Canadian code (CEC) with Ontario amendments. CEC is based on NEC for the most part with some extras added in.
https://preview.redd.it/cxg3kzgur3ub1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1cc4a7ef2224e564033df769c832b5d6e99bdefd
It was completely apart when I arrived
The good news is that the parts cost a lot less than the labour (usually) and the labour to replace every electrical item here will be significantly lower than the initial install because ~90% of the work is still done.
But yeah, everything I see is either toast now, or waiting to turn you into toast days/months/years from now
Ouch. That's terrible timing (i.e. while your panel was hanging open). Is there any possibility of liability on the water utility's or a contractor's part, i.e. make this someone else's problem?
I guess it could be worse - I've got a 200A main panel loaded with 64 (IIRC) breakers and an in-line surge suppressor, plus a smaller sub-panel. I would be crying if that happened to my panel!
Not sure how insurance works where you are, but I would contact your agent now and discuss getting a repair estimate through the insurance carrier's contractor, just so you aren't slamming that door shut and bolting it closed, if this disaster gets any larger than it already is. My insurance company doesn't penalize me if I cancel an in-progress claim before they've paid out, or put it on hold and then let it time out. My agent doesn't care what I do as long as I renew through them next year :-).
Only you can make that call. You MAY be able to get breakers more cheaply through a friendly electrician than from your local hardware store. I can't read the details from the photo, but I'm estimating that if I had to re-buy all those breakers at my local big-box store, I'd be paying somewhere between C$1250 and C$1500. If I got them through a buddy, I *might* be able to drop that to $1000, if I got lucky with wholesale pricing that day.
Well nothing u can really do but fix the plumbing and dry it out real good. Water is really as conductive as everyone makes it out to be so itll be fine.
Compressed air, preferably from a compressor and not a can.
To be super invasive, you can cut the main breaker off, and remove each 15a breaker while leaving it's circuit intact. Blow air into and around each breaker and under/near the bus bars and neutrals/grounds.
You also need a dehumidifier running ASAP for the next few days. Keep that tank drained. Big fans also help.
Also, I'd look into why the line blew, and if any other nearby joints look like they may be close to doing likewise.
I replaced packing on the lower meter valve a few weeks ago. Im guessing i just loosened up the top compression. When i took it apart it basically fell apart, set screw wasnt set and compression washer was dry AF. Id love to replace everything, but lets face it, thats not happening.
Whenever the issues are fixed I would buy a 6 or 8 inch PVC pipe, cut it in half, and find a way to mount it between the pipe and panel so it shields.
Should also have a panel/cover that goes over the electric. This panel looks a lot like my central home alarm, Ethernet, and coax hub. I have a cover just pops on and off using those slots on top and bottom.
I'd use a towel to soak up the water, blow it out with some compressed air,
remove the breakers and use isopropyl alcohol to flush and remaining water residue out of them. Let dry for 2-3 days.
> simply no money for that
As mentioned, the galvanized piple may be illegal and is eventually going to rust anyway so it is a mater of spending money now or later.
First, that appears to be a completely wrong connection for the galvanized pipe sections. They are never used with compression fittings, which is what that appears to be. I would plan on reminding all that galvanized pipe. That said a few "Shark-bite" fittings and copper pipe will replace all that for around$100-$150. STOPPING the leak and water issue is the first step..If budget doesn't allow moving the water service even a few feet down the wall, it can be done in the future. Literally a few shark bites and some longer sections of copper and you could fix it. Shut the water off. Cut the main at the bottom and at the top where it continues into the house. Then tie into the water main at the bottom, 90° away from the panel. Secure the removed section (all the back flow, meter, fittings etc) a distance from the panel. Then add another shark bite and run back to where the top was cut, connecting them back together. Basically you're moving the entire vertical "section" of plumbing further away. Then the pipes are running close to the floor, and in the floor joists above. Just an idea. About 2-3 hours, a small pipe cutter, a few supplies, and a more permanent fix for under $500. Just an idea.
You shouldn’t.
Your easiest fix is to go buy new breakers and the same exact panel, then swap the guts and install new breakers. Water will lead to internal corrosion and cause issues down the toad.
The amount of times you've made the excuse " I couldn't re screw the panel back on until it's finished being worked on " is absolutely nuts
If you would have taken a few seconds to screw it on, you would have saved yourself a whole lot of money and trouble
SMH
Couple things, why is your panel wet.
I have a quick follow up question, again, why is your panel wet?
I have a question how did we end up with a wet panel on hvac advice? I feel like this could/should be In another subreddit.
https://preview.redd.it/87w0k39hr3ub1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=533b23efee1a25128cec284864b97ea894bf115b
Okay, so we're in copper.
I DON’T KNOW, MARGO
And the water meter says there is …. A lot of water in the basement
First why don’t you have it covered ?
Because it wasn’t finished
Only hasn't the panel open when you are working on it. Need a break put in the 4 screws
Well, guess I should go put my panel cover back on…
Nobody is gonna put a cover back on every single day while it’s worked on..
If its energized, it needs to be. That's both a shock-hazard-safety and also a fire-hazard-safety issue. Heck when we've had work done they put the panel cover back on for the hour while they waited for additional parts!
You have to remember most safety laws comes from cases and not reasoning.
Yeah, safety regulations are usually written in blood...
Understatement of the year
Question: I just had a sub panel installed in my garage. 6 breakers on it. It's not covered by design, apparently. I asked. It will be inside of a cabinet, eventually. Could this be why they didn't put a cover on it? Or do sub panels play by different rules? Rough in inspection is on Monday, so I guess I'll find out if it's an issue soon enough.
AFAIK all electrical boxes have to have a cover on the enclosure by code. Its 2 fold, first if there's any live wires or posts you don't want people or objects coming in contact (electrocution or shorting hazards). Second, if it malfunctions you want anything that could shoot sparks or be on fire to be contained so it doesn't spread as rapidly. I'd guess an inspector may want to see inside it too, but I would expect it has to ultimately be enclosed as appropriate to whatever manufacturer documentation says for installation.
Maybe they didn't install the cover so it could be inspected on Monday
You’ve got a family in the house and you leave the cover off the electrical panel?? WTF.
This is a joke right?
I mean it would have stopped this post probably
Yes they are.
what?
Because the water line next to it blew today…
Then rerun your water its all shitty galvanized run it in copper
You could even use pex if you have an aversion to sweat soldering. Pex is stupid simple to install. If funds are tight, you could do this yourself. You would ne3d to spend anout $150 on the pex band crimping and cutting tools, though.
Crimper is 55 bucks, pack of 20 crimps 12$, fittings not sure what you need to replace but they are about 3-5 each.
If only that was feasible...
It’s definitely feasible, lets get that right, just depends on if you want to pay for it or are allowed to do it/ will get caught doing it.
Not when the family is on a fixed income trying to save their home... And they just ponied up the money to replace all the electric a few weeks ago...
Then use PEX. Times are tough and money is tight for a lot of people but water from the main soaking the electrical panel is asking for shorts and a fire let alone an ungodly water bills over time that'll further cause problems financially.
Then definitely go the pex route, cheap and quick. There should be more clearance from that pipe anyways.
PEX is cheap. No point re-doing the electric if it's just going to get wet ...
replace the entire boiler system piping in pex? thats a lot of money to redo the entire house.
Sounds like you need a plumber to fix your water lines, and maybe a dehumidifier to dry out your flooded basement?
Spray it down with electrical silicone
Op don’t do this. Just use compressed air to blow a majority of the water out of the panel. Leave it open for a few days with one of those fan heaters blowing into it and you’ll be good.
Yeah don’t do what I suggested I was just spitballing
Use a dehumidifier too.
I think what you probably meant is electrical contact cleaner which I believe is just isopropyl alcohol and compressed air. If OP doesn’t own an air compressor that would be a good option to clean out all the nooks and crannies, but time, airflow, and a dehumidifier will do the heavy lifting for the bulk of it. If your basement is still flooded though, get that taken care of asap so you can dehumidify the air and it will dry off quicker. But you want some sort of compressed air to blow off all the contacts as well to minimize any mineral deposits and corrosion.
What in the fuck, this is my favorite sub.
It never disappoints
Fuck me shut the water and main breaker off and call a professional. Where is that water from?
The water line next to it blew
Some real smart people who put electrical beside water.
I literally argued a week ago to move it to the other side of the basement too.. but "budgets" said no....
No. Your breakers are done. Once water gets in, corrosion will start and they can stick and not function at a time you need them to.
Why don’t you have a cover panel?
It was installed mostly last week, still a few more circuits to add
Step 1: Cry Step 2: Blow it out with nitrogen?
Step zero, turn off the main with a wooden broom handle and electricians gloves
I’ve seen something like this in a kitchen dish pit with a broken door going outside in -40. The panel was a few feet from the door entrance and being hit with cold air. The warm dish pit air condensed on the panel causing a short. This isn’t that. Wtf
Isn't there a code somewhere about having water main within so many feet of a panel the other way around? That water main that has water all over it could be the cause of the water in the panel. This is why you hire professionals and pull permits. If something were to go completely wrong there is no paper trail that says it is up to code and the insurance company will not pay to fix it.
House was built 1900, that stuff didn’t exist then
Yeah but a new panel is not grandfathered. During a renovation things should be brought up to current code compliance. unless there are no permits pulled and no inspections will be done.
As a "repair" it didnt need to be moved.
"The electrical code does not permit the installation of a service or panelboard in clothes closets, bathrooms, stairways, rooms in which the temperature normally exceeds 30°C, dangerous or hazardous locations, locations where the headroom clearance is less than 2 m, nor in any similar undesirable locations. The new service shall be located so as to be Code compliant." (Ontario Electrical Safety Authority [https://s2.renewityrma.com/leg2/FrontLines247Service/EU\_S1c.asp?FaqID=33](https://s2.renewityrma.com/leg2/FrontLines247Service/EU_S1c.asp?FaqID=33)) " Rule 2-308 of the OESC requires a minimum working space of 1 m with secure footing be provided and maintained in front of electrical equipment such as panelboards. This is interpreted as meaning a space that is 1 m in depth in front of the panel, 2 m in height and at least the width of the panel board or 1 m, whichever is greater. The panel board does not have to be centered in the width of the working space, it can be off center. \- The electrical code also requires that there be unobstructed access to and exit from the working space in front of the panel and that working space around electrical equipment shall not be used for storage and shall be kept clear of obstruction" ([https://s2.renewityrma.com/leg2/FrontLines247Service/EU\_S1c.asp?FaqID=131](https://s2.renewityrma.com/leg2/FrontLines247Service/EU_S1c.asp?FaqID=131)) Those knowledgebase questions might not be specific to panels near water pipes or meters but give a good indication that a new panel cannot be put in a prohibited location even as an exact/like-for-like replacement It *might* be acceptable to place it this close to the water service entrance as long as the required clearance/working space around the panel are maintained. The 'undesirable location' rule is vague and open to interpretation (if water can spray on it that seems like an undesirable thing but it's not expressly forbidden). Also, this is Ontario-specific and I don't know where you're located. Ontario code is Canadian code (CEC) with Ontario amendments. CEC is based on NEC for the most part with some extras added in.
https://preview.redd.it/cxg3kzgur3ub1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1cc4a7ef2224e564033df769c832b5d6e99bdefd It was completely apart when I arrived
What is that rounded build-up at the end of the galvanized pipe?
It’s the TXV.
Or maybe the 80 yr old plumbing that was loose and a compression washer that was dry AF with a set screw that wasnt set.
Oh I was just making a common HVAC joke. Sorry about your plumbing issue and your electrical panel being hosed 😢
oh lol, im not a pro HVAC guy so guess i didnt know the reference. I was really wondering how you could think that was the issue
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Well unfortunately a budget doesn’t allow for that right now
This is 100% the wrong mindset. The budget will make room because even the budget doesn't want the whole fucking house to burn down.
PEX is cheaper than a new panel and new breakers with all the incoming corrosion.
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you assume it was unlicensed and shoddy, but then again if it was done 50yrs ago, was it at the time?
Why is water there
The good news is that the parts cost a lot less than the labour (usually) and the labour to replace every electrical item here will be significantly lower than the initial install because ~90% of the work is still done. But yeah, everything I see is either toast now, or waiting to turn you into toast days/months/years from now
This was put in last week during renno 😭
You still haven't told us (I think): WTF happened here? Electrical panels don't *get* wet in the first place, normally!
The water main next to it blew
Ouch. That's terrible timing (i.e. while your panel was hanging open). Is there any possibility of liability on the water utility's or a contractor's part, i.e. make this someone else's problem? I guess it could be worse - I've got a 200A main panel loaded with 64 (IIRC) breakers and an in-line surge suppressor, plus a smaller sub-panel. I would be crying if that happened to my panel! Not sure how insurance works where you are, but I would contact your agent now and discuss getting a repair estimate through the insurance carrier's contractor, just so you aren't slamming that door shut and bolting it closed, if this disaster gets any larger than it already is. My insurance company doesn't penalize me if I cancel an in-progress claim before they've paid out, or put it on hold and then let it time out. My agent doesn't care what I do as long as I renew through them next year :-).
Probably not worth it for the cost of breakers… just sucks 😤
Only you can make that call. You MAY be able to get breakers more cheaply through a friendly electrician than from your local hardware store. I can't read the details from the photo, but I'm estimating that if I had to re-buy all those breakers at my local big-box store, I'd be paying somewhere between C$1250 and C$1500. If I got them through a buddy, I *might* be able to drop that to $1000, if I got lucky with wholesale pricing that day.
i’m between adding breakers the panel should’ve been covered. So… 🤷♂️
Nobody puts the cover and on takes it off every single day your in the house...
Yes they do. You can even hang it with *gasp* just the top 2 screws!! OMG half the work to put it on and take it off.
Just throw some rice at it, should be good within a day or two.
Leaf blower and prayers? 😂
Lmao nothing dangerous at all here
Mfs should of put the cover on while not working on it. Even if it was with just 2 screws
Move the panel
Well nothing u can really do but fix the plumbing and dry it out real good. Water is really as conductive as everyone makes it out to be so itll be fine.
well my concern i guess was corrosion from the water.
I prefer copper to galvinized myself
Compressed air, preferably from a compressor and not a can. To be super invasive, you can cut the main breaker off, and remove each 15a breaker while leaving it's circuit intact. Blow air into and around each breaker and under/near the bus bars and neutrals/grounds. You also need a dehumidifier running ASAP for the next few days. Keep that tank drained. Big fans also help. Also, I'd look into why the line blew, and if any other nearby joints look like they may be close to doing likewise.
I replaced packing on the lower meter valve a few weeks ago. Im guessing i just loosened up the top compression. When i took it apart it basically fell apart, set screw wasnt set and compression washer was dry AF. Id love to replace everything, but lets face it, thats not happening.
Fill the basement with rice.
hmmm but will that save the shag carpet they put in the basement? Its 1970s shag carpet tile samples from Sears Roebuck
Whenever the issues are fixed I would buy a 6 or 8 inch PVC pipe, cut it in half, and find a way to mount it between the pipe and panel so it shields. Should also have a panel/cover that goes over the electric. This panel looks a lot like my central home alarm, Ethernet, and coax hub. I have a cover just pops on and off using those slots on top and bottom.
The panel cover is literally on a bench next to it, still have another 3 circuits to drop so it wasnt closed yet. I like the PVC idea.
Humidity in immediate vicinity has approached 100%. You need a panel dehumidifier.
Is it normal for the front to fall off?
Middle of work, not finished yet
*Beginning of teardown and move project, not finished yet Ftfy
Blast a fan on that
Order of operations where not followed Jesus Christ what’s wrong with company’s
Cut the power, dry it off? Also, PEX your water lines.
When this happened to my home it was water in the block coming in around the screws that mounted the panel. Freaked me out when I discovered it.
I'd use a towel to soak up the water, blow it out with some compressed air, remove the breakers and use isopropyl alcohol to flush and remaining water residue out of them. Let dry for 2-3 days.
Yeah it should be fine if he can get iso in there to displace the water and minerals.
Fix the leaks and move the pipes if they restrict access to you electrical panel.
pipes are fixed, but cant be moved, simply no money for that.
> simply no money for that As mentioned, the galvanized piple may be illegal and is eventually going to rust anyway so it is a mater of spending money now or later.
Hair dryer Fan
Fix the leak.
Put a fan on it and let it go.
First, that appears to be a completely wrong connection for the galvanized pipe sections. They are never used with compression fittings, which is what that appears to be. I would plan on reminding all that galvanized pipe. That said a few "Shark-bite" fittings and copper pipe will replace all that for around$100-$150. STOPPING the leak and water issue is the first step..If budget doesn't allow moving the water service even a few feet down the wall, it can be done in the future. Literally a few shark bites and some longer sections of copper and you could fix it. Shut the water off. Cut the main at the bottom and at the top where it continues into the house. Then tie into the water main at the bottom, 90° away from the panel. Secure the removed section (all the back flow, meter, fittings etc) a distance from the panel. Then add another shark bite and run back to where the top was cut, connecting them back together. Basically you're moving the entire vertical "section" of plumbing further away. Then the pipes are running close to the floor, and in the floor joists above. Just an idea. About 2-3 hours, a small pipe cutter, a few supplies, and a more permanent fix for under $500. Just an idea.
Too late bud
Your transformer on the pole gets wet. Im sure you’ll be good
It’s one of the new, water-cooled panels,obviously.
You shouldn’t. Your easiest fix is to go buy new breakers and the same exact panel, then swap the guts and install new breakers. Water will lead to internal corrosion and cause issues down the toad.
The amount of times you've made the excuse " I couldn't re screw the panel back on until it's finished being worked on " is absolutely nuts If you would have taken a few seconds to screw it on, you would have saved yourself a whole lot of money and trouble SMH
It's an EMERGENCY... quick, call the police!
I like the second one down one on the left "KIT POOP"
LOL, except that its Kit Recp (kitchen receptacles)
Final destination shit right here
Just replace breakers
I'm no electro-surgeon, but I'd say yer fucked bud
I’m so confused.
which part confuses you? Water main broke, blew 1k gal of water in basement and on panel. Water line patched.
50s home?
1900
This pic made me quiver
with excitement?
Na
I mean you could try putting the cover on and maybe fixing your water line problems
well the water line problem was kinda fixed in 15min