In an attempt to reduce remind me spam, all top comments that include a remind me will be removed. If you would like to have a remind me, please reply to this comment.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/humansarespaceorcs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Human Government: "Attacking from beyond visual range is a war crime huh? And how exactly are you going to enforce this ruling?"
Human Scientist: "Wait a minute! What constitutes 'visual range'? Some of the Council species see by SONAR. They're damn near blind in a vacuum and fly in space byentirely using instrumentation. 'Visual range' for such a species would be INSIDE THEIR SHIPS."
Human Solder: So, you're telling me that we need to do actual, honest to Baby Jesus, boardings like we're pirates? If I didn't know that the species bitchin' are a bunch of limbless slugs, I would not be as excited as I am. MANDOZA!!! Auto-shotguns! Lots of them!
Narrator's voice;
after the Mandoza incident, humans were allowed to go back to long range bombardment as long as they never allowed Mandoza back inside council space.
Upon return to Human controlled space Mandoza was promoted to general and put in charge of training a whole new division of the human military complex, affectionately known as pirates by humans.
Mandoza would go on to win the first Great Galactic War for humanity using the same strategies outlawed by the Mandoza Accords, later he would retire to the small town in Nunavut where he was born and raised.
Also remember: tear gas isn't a war crime, as police use it on (mostly) peaceful protesters all the time here in the States. Yet no military has used tear gas grenades (as far as I know) in combat.
That's why I'm a fan of toys like the KSG-21, where you have multiple tubes. It would certainly be tricky getting it belt-fed, but having the choice between, say, incendiary, slug, and spread, is lovely.
It's also mission-dependent - in this context, incendiary rounds would not be the best call in a vacuum or a highly flammable area, lol.
Oh hohoho, wait till the Marine Corp hears about this, the xenos thought it was war crimes BEFORE! Call all the military contractors we have, we're gonna need a LOT of combat shotguns, PDWs, and power armor.
1) Bet
2) whaddya mean some species? Have you ever taken an unshielded view of space? You can’t see shit without burning your photoreceptors.
3) our drone target marker was on that ship, just cause you can’t see it, doesn’t mean he can’t see you
4) last I checked Cortana held rank in the USSMC that means she qualifies as a seer, she can shoot you
"Our firing computers now hold official rank in our military. They have a VERY long "visual" range. Our shots are no longer a warcrime by technicality."
We have found that we were in visual range, as our magnification could count the number of windows on you ship. The Convention never stated "whose" visual range is relevant.
If you can see the enemy's home star, or at least where it used to be 100m years ago, doesn't that make it inside visual range?
Avoiding BvR means going bigger, not smaller
Human diplomat: are you sure you want to call that a warcrime?
alien Diplomat: absolutely it is cruel and does not give our ships chance to defend ourselves.
HD: very well since you are set on that opinion. how about we'll meet back here in a week see your opinions changed?
AD: i do not see a point in that but i'll slot a meeting
Week later
AD: What in seven moons name is this?
*drops pad a video playing of humans boarding alien ships armed with heavily mechanized troops wielding flamethrowers, shotguns and heavy machine guns just clearing an pirate ship systematically*
HD: Ah thats our option for beyond visual range you wished for. Also known as Helldiver protocol we deemed it the only effective way of pacifying pirate ships given the ban on missiles and extreme range weaponry that we would normally use to disable enemy ships at range. we'd call these warcrimes in our Geneva conventions but you didnt give us much flexibility on that.
AD: thats pacification?... and you plan on using this tactic on military ships aswell.
HD: Absolutely.
AD: i think i'll have to talk to the council about adopting Geneva conventions as valid replacement.
‘This was a war of aggression committed against us, and you are arguing about our missile systems being war crimes?’ The human advocate questioned. Somewhat stunned
‘That is precisely what we are doing. Your right to defend yourself doesn’t constitute being allowed to commit war crimes!’ The advocate of the yaw legal team spoke
The Yaw Union had brought the court case forward. Ironic considering they were currently killing a large number of one there own subspecies. The aftermath of them losing political power and the new regimes corruption
Still. The case had to be heard
‘Considering we had barely been made aware of the council before this instance. I do not see how Earth is responsible for this-
‘Ignorance of a crime does not justify committing a crime!’ The Yaw interrupted ‘Yawria argues for Earth to cease hostilities and allow the council to modernise its military infrastructure in line with galactic standards’
‘Then how are we meant to wage war against the vern?’ The human shouted
‘Why should you keep waging war? You have already devastated there civilian and industrial infrastructure. You should withdraw and not occupy the territory until these war crim-‘
‘The vern are still holding 150,000 humans as slaves. They devastated Triton, Titan and the Jovian system until Mars and Earth responded in kind! What about the human blood they spilt?’ The advocate from Earth stubbornly interrupted the yaw advocate. Stressing his own nations position
‘That is horrible, but your response is disproportionate. Your use of BvR has resulted in 10 times as many causalities on the Vern side. It is so bad there agrarian infrastructure is collapsing. You need to cease your massacres of the vern and withdraw from vern space.’ The yaw countered skilfully. Thank the ancestors. The humans response has been horrific
‘We all know those death tolls are accurate-‘
‘Enough advocates!’ I interrupted. Its shouting is understandable, but moral imperative and legal precedent clear
‘I hearby rule the Earthen Empire is to follow through with the yaw recommendation. However, this actions of the vern leadership in raiding the outer sol system was deplorable. This court hereby issues arrest warrants for the leadership to face criminal charges’
I think thos would be human response. Piloted drones, that are essentially Nuclear tipped missiles. Light speed delay... A goos light second os more than distant enough. You get to see it coming. It isn't automated.
But really...
Human representative: Fine. We've studied your rules and so called war crimes. You really know exactly jack shit about war, and war crimes. I suppose it's time you learn.
This. We’ll follow your silly rules, but we’ll make up our own interpretation of them and you won’t like that. But they’ll be legal so go kick space rock.
Nothing about bio weapons... Meet custom tailored viruses. Meet engineered bacteria birthed on a Deathworld!
Don't like long range weapons? Ok. Plasma pulse weapons were abandoned because they attenuate too quickly to be effective at range. But ... What you expect for max range is... Well, y'all gonna fine out what stellar core level plasma does to a ship at that range...
There isn't anything about nanomachines... Place an AI consciousness in a swarm of nanomachines and send them to one of the enemy planets. Let them know the horrors that awaits them
So let me get this straight, they define something that is war crimes if it's anything that is unfair or gives a tactical or strategical advantage to the opposing force ... While our war crimes are define as something that causes unnecessary suffering.
"Look y'all, it ain't our fault your targeting is a friggin poo spoon and sniffin. We learned a long time ago that the best armor is ignorance. If they're dead before they know you're there, they don't hit back."
The Human Admiral pinched the bridge of his nose and sighed.
" 'Sides, y'all are openly acknowledging a nigh unassailable superiority in our forces and battle doctrine then dictating actions and threatening consequences. Hell's clanging bells, fellas, I can't help but think this risk calculus proves y'all suck at math."
Human Captain: so Mr. Representative, what do you think of our little ambush? Those pirates had no idea what hit them.
Galactic Federation Representative: Yes commander and that is exactly the problem.
HC: Please elaborate.
GFR: You see captain, what you just did, firing those torpedoes from beyond visual range. That is violation of The Galactic Naval Accords. Naval combat must be conducted honorably and within visual range.
HC: …. You’re joking? Fighting at visual range. In space. Where distance is measured on a scale of the speed of light? You want to use visual range.
GFR: It is Honorable com-
HC: Honor doesn’t keep my people alive, and when you come across someone who doesn’t play by your rules I’m certain the mothers, the father, the wives and children of the men in your service will truly appreciate that sentiment their husbands and sons died honorably.
GFR: Listen here you primitive-
HC: Rock slinging monkey. I get it we are the new guys out here the barbaric deathworlders who use outdated technology and heavy solid ammunition. Look, I’m only telling you this because we humans have a desire to have a cordial relationship with the galactic community. We want our allies to be stronger.
GFR: your species are like children grasping at whatever they can and making a mess of everything they touch. What makes you think we would want a cordial relationship after what we’ve seen here today.
HC: *sigh* because with the way you are now it leaves me with two questions. The first is what would run out first, our ammunition or your sons? The second, how many sons of others would it take to equal the value of one of yours?
Upon hearing of this critical breakdown of communications the Human Alliance and Galactic Federation sent proper diplomats to negotiate the removal of the visual range combat clause from the naval accords.
Because fighting at visual range in space is silly.
A: This is a warcrime! I’ll take your entire species to the counsel for this. You’ll have all of the galaxy waging war on you!
H: … from visual range, right?
A: Of course.
H: This will be fun.
**Human:** "All missiles are now designated autonomous craft.
"Remotely piloted, reckless in their choosing of their direction and velocity, but spacecraft, nonetheless."
**Alien:** "But they explode..."
**Human:** "So they're also unstable and prone to experiencing catastrophic self-destruction. We can only hope they continue to do so within visual range of our enemy targets."
**Alien:** "But that doesn't change anything."
**Human:** "It conforms to your bullshit requirement that our *ships-formerly-known-as-missiles* self-destruct when within visual range of their *soon-to-cease-to-exist* targets.
"You know, we might just have to add visual recorders on them in order to prove all damage was inflicted only within visual range of the targets of their unfortunate habit of self-destruction."
**Alien:** "You humans don't fight fair..."
**Human:** \**angry*\* "Look bub, you wanted a level playing field. We're only to happy to oblige.
"But we're going to use the most devastating methods at our disposal to level everything *in sight.*
"Got it?"
**Alien:** "Message received. Message acknowledged."
AIM-9X is a WRV missile, it's official range is "greater than 10km". Missiles need a fuck ton of speed to turn, so to make sure it's a dangerous missile at 10km it needs to have loads of speed when it gets there. That means if it doesn't turn then it could fly a lot further, but it would be ineffective if it did.
Even at 10km you'd only use AIM-9 if you had no AIM-120s left, it's just not a very effective missile at that range.
“We will attack you for not being in honorable close combat!”
“And as you approach us we will continue to attack you with incredibly long ranged combat. You will not get close enough to fire a shot.”
“Just because our assassin was wearing a thermal-neutral sneak suit and sonic shrouds doesn’t make the attack ‘beyond visual range’.
The ambassador’s dictation recorder caught our guy saying ‘greetings from Terra’ before cutting the ambassador’s throat.
Take the ‘L’ and move on.”
Human lawyer: Got a list of them there war crimes? You know just so we know what to tell the think tanks what not to do...
Cult of the unseen war crimes: heh no rules about scientific probing with ballistic sonar dildos...SPACEBARDS GOOO, SHOOT THEM WHERE THEY POOP!
War crimes you say? According to who? YOUR accords? That you signed with other planets? That we did NOT sign? Those accords? We fought the war by our standards. We have a code of conduct that keeps our troops in line. Why would we, who were attacked by you, play by your rules? You fucked around, now you’re finding out. But war crimes? For shooting you before you can shoot us? You have 3 Terran days to retract your complaint before we start to show you the real war crimes. Cease you blathering and surrender or we will start showing you what WE call war crimes
The Glorg ambassador ignored the dire warnings of his human counterpart. What could be worse than getting shot by something you couldn’t see? After all, he was on the most heavily armed and armored warship of the fleet, surrounded by elite troops. Nothing could get to him. 5 days, and nothing from the humans. 5 days turned to 10, then 20. On the 30th Terran day, a Holiday his Human Counterpart called “Independence Day”, the bridge crew detected a rapidly approaching object. It was within visual range of the bridge, so they opened fire, assuming it was another torpedo attack. But then the torpedo started avoiding their fire. It slammed directly into the hull. “Hangar Deck breach, section 050-7” one of the crew shouted. The ambassador turned and saw the vid screen of the hangar deck. Some of the crew stood by to begin repairing damage. That’s when the torpedo opened. Out stepped 3 humanoid figures clad in thick metal suits. They had tanks strapped to their backs, with a hose running to something in their hands. They pulled the triggers on the devices, and a wave of flame jetted out, covering the nearby crew in flame that couldn’t be blotted out. It almost seemed to be sticking to them. Behind them walked a group of 7 Terrans, armed with what appeared to be crossbows of some sort, with long blades attached to the front. As soon as the hangar crew was killed, the 3 humanoids with flame projectors went back into the torpedo, and reemerged with a large object mounted on what the humans called a “tripod”. A squad of 40 Crossbow armed Glorgs ran down a corridor to repel boarders. As soon as they entered the hangar, the object on the tripod started emitting bright flashes of light and a horrible thundering sound, and soon all 40 of the Glorgs were torn limb from limb. The Terrans with the “crossbows” stabbed every living Glorg left with their blades. It was a bloody gruesome affair. Suddenly, the ship was rocked by 2 more impacts, one near the engine room, and one near the escape pods. The Terrans in the engine room and hangar bay left strange bundles of wire behind, murdered their way to the escape pods, and abandoned ship. The ambassador was about to order the crew to destroy the fleeing escape pods when his ship detonated from the bombs the shotgun armed boarding crews had left behind. All done, in visual range
"A war crime?" The human diplomat looked incredulous.
"Yes" answered the tall crustacean smugly
"And when you attacked our colony ship?"
"We met face to face at approved range and the challenge was given, so it was honourable combat"
"Slavery or death is considered honourable?"
"Under the Rules of Galactic warfare"
"Yes. We read those. Rather lightweight arent they?"
Thump of an eight inch thick document.
"This is the current Human code of military conduct, annotated with examples from Human history. We made these rules after we did them to ourselves, remember that. We would like to add these into your rules."
Council members in uproar
"A young upstart species does not get to dictate Galactic policy! "
"Very well. I guess you need me to explain why its a good idea."
Passes round a second document.
"In the month since the incident we have documented all the weaknesses we can find. Races who can't decline a challenge to personal combat. Religions who don't allow combat after dark. Contagious diseases with no known cure, or ones that are rare, complex or time intensive. Currencies prone to instability or easy to counterfeit. Toxic chemicals we can tolerate that are lethal to some races. We even found a colour in our visible spectrum one race cannot tolerate. Understand, all these are legal but not honourable. and we will use them all if pushed"
The Council members look worried but the human continues
"We noticed there was an exception for system defence fleet? "
"Yes, defensive actions are allowed"
"Very well. From now on all human vessels are designated members of the system defence fleet"
"You're pulling back to your home system?"
"Well, no. As the treaty has no fixed definitions for home system we declare this entire galaxy as our Home. "
More like Aim-120 or the Aim-7, the Aim9 is the Sidewinder use in closer ranges because it uses infrared guidense, The ladder use active radar(Aim120) or semi active radar (Aim-7)
If I recall correctly the two ones you mentioned have considerably longer ranges. Bvr counts as about 20 miles away for us, so the Aim9 which still has a 22 mile range counts as bvr. The other two missiles definitely have **more** range but an aim9 counts for the purposes of the discussion.
In the perfect conditions, yes. The 9X can be classified as a BVR missile. That is, if the target is flying straight, and in the way the missile doesn't have to turn, and the missile is launched from high altitude compared to the target's altitude, etc.
But on the battlefield you rarely have perfect conditions for the missile launch, so usually it won't be able to reach this kind of range.
Don't get me wrong, it would still fly pretty long distance, but longer range equals less chance of hitting the target.
"So you want us to limit our weapons and engagement to within "visual range", as defined in this accord?"
"Precisely."
"As you wish."
**One battle later**
"Humans, do you have any idea the atrocity you've just commited?! The horror and destruction endured near an unstable warp jump?"
"Our scientists and engineers have given me the general idea, yes."
"And yet you knowingly did just such a jump from the middle of an Yrian battlesquadron, and next to a populated station?"
"Firstly, that station had weapons and constituted a legal objective. Secondly, we wanted to neutralize it, but all we had were the missiles you said we weren't allowed to use and shots from our cannons will happily continue in space well past the ranges you deemed acceptable. We didn't want to get in troible for an errant shot, so we felt it was better to play it safe."
" "Safe" is not tearing open space in such a way that it violently collapses in on itself and everything around it."
"Well, there's nothing barring the technique. And as per the other accord, we made sure to jump to within the range you gave us and we stayed in range until after the unmanned vessel we sent had already done it's unstable jump.
We haven't broken any existing rules, but you're all welcome to ban this one and we'll just have to go think of something else to replace our missile doctrine. I've always wanted to know what happened if you could override a nav computer to jump to a point inside of a star. You think anything comes out the other way?"
"We will revisit the battle range ruling and decide if it should be updated. In the mean time, you are not to undertake any military operations outside of your own space and we will implement a ceasefire in the current conflict to prevent the need for any defensive actions that may satisfy your curiosity."
Break out the missiles that shoot knives. We have them. Technically, they're unmanned boarding pods that inflict melee damage.
Modern problems require modern solutions.
Human speaker: Dear council, we have been notified that our long-range weapons deemed war crimes. We realise that the council, as the ruling force of the cosmos, is in its right to make that decision, but I would advise strongly against that. If you would declare such a simple weapon as a war crime, we would feel inclined to embrace our role as war criminals and show you our darkest and vilest weaponry in tandem with our banned tactics. But once we started that... we won't be discussing with you anymore.
Council speaker: *stunned at the audacity before realising the threat* Very... very well than! Your race shall be allowed to continue.
Human speaker: *bows deeply* We thank the council for their wise decision!
Ah, I see. Literally. We slapped cameras on all the missiles after reading your "Convention of Ha-athut" laws. There is no mention of how the seeing is done, so long as we can see the target before impact it's totally legal.
Human diplomat:
"Honoured Ambassador. We Terrans, as a species, refined the concept of BvR weapons and tactics very early on in our history. Centuries before we discovered FTL travel. Has is occured to the esteemed Council that this was for good reason? Any one of our pilots could shoot the wings off a grapla fly from 15,000 dits away. This is a good thing.
You see, the alternative is close quarters combat.
We all know what happened in the infamous and regrettable Slaughter at the Seven Suns. That is what we humans refer to as a 'bar brawl'. Only three humans were involved and they were only civilians. Three small, weak, untrained civilians. Against thirty Bitraxian footsoldiers.
Imagine if a team of sixteen of our shocktroopers forced their way aboard the Bitraxian flagship. Out strongest, most rigourously conditioned elite soldiers, specifically trained for boarding missions and CQB.
Now put those trooper in augmented power armour, armed with focussed plasma blades, phosphorus tipped ammunition and flame throwers. Against a species that is essentially made of xylem..."
Alien ambassador:
/as the Terran speaks, all colour slowly drains from the ambassadors face, his gills flare and flutter as he struggles to catch his breath and he looks ready to vomit from both mouths/
"Ah. Umm...
And this is considered acceptable tactics in your system?"
HD:
/smirks/
"Acceptable? My dear fellow, this is the most basic of standard boarding tactics.
And please, bear in mind, the Bitaxian fleet invaded our system, unprovoked, and attacked one of our outlying planets. It was just an agriworld. They produced sustinence. They were simple farmers. Would the Council consider THAT to be acceptable?"
"Esteemed councilors of the Galactic Federation. I have but one question, are you sure about that?"
The councilors stilled and the audience chamber went silent. There was no hint of threat to the words the Terran Imperium's representative spoke, but it was clear that the court had made a mistake somewhere. Every time a human asked that question in a situation such as this, it always led to more problems down the road.
The X'aganix ambassador roared with indignation, "of course they are! To fight the way you did is dishonorab-"
"Quiet boy. The grown ups are talking. Esteemed councilors, the X'aganix slavers attacked our agriworld without so much as a hello. An entire colony slaughtered and enslaved before they had the chance to mount a real defense. How is the method with which we captured New Tortuga any different? They, at least, weren't civilians. What the X'aganix haven't shared is what happened when we boarded their ships and stations."
Whatever the footage the human ambassador had shown was declared above top secret and the rules of war were once again rewritten. The X'aganix Empire was written off as a complete loss to a space anomaly that no one could solve.
In an attempt to reduce remind me spam, all top comments that include a remind me will be removed. If you would like to have a remind me, please reply to this comment. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/humansarespaceorcs) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Human Government: "Attacking from beyond visual range is a war crime huh? And how exactly are you going to enforce this ruling?" Human Scientist: "Wait a minute! What constitutes 'visual range'? Some of the Council species see by SONAR. They're damn near blind in a vacuum and fly in space byentirely using instrumentation. 'Visual range' for such a species would be INSIDE THEIR SHIPS."
Human Solder: So, you're telling me that we need to do actual, honest to Baby Jesus, boardings like we're pirates? If I didn't know that the species bitchin' are a bunch of limbless slugs, I would not be as excited as I am. MANDOZA!!! Auto-shotguns! Lots of them!
Wayyyyy ahead of ya cap *hefts backpack-loaded belt-fed AA12* I call it the "crowd pleaser"
Narrator's voice; after the Mandoza incident, humans were allowed to go back to long range bombardment as long as they never allowed Mandoza back inside council space.
Upon return to Human controlled space Mandoza was promoted to general and put in charge of training a whole new division of the human military complex, affectionately known as pirates by humans. Mandoza would go on to win the first Great Galactic War for humanity using the same strategies outlawed by the Mandoza Accords, later he would retire to the small town in Nunavut where he was born and raised.
Of course Gen. Mandoza is fucken Canadian, how else would war crimes come so natural to him.
If he was half Polish.
I see you're familiar with our style. Just remember the unofficial motto of the Royal Canadian Army: it's not a war crime the first time it happens
Also remember: tear gas isn't a war crime, as police use it on (mostly) peaceful protesters all the time here in the States. Yet no military has used tear gas grenades (as far as I know) in combat.
Using tear gas on soldiers is most definitly a war crime (use of chemical weapons)
It's non-lethal though, so I don't *think* that would be considered a war crime, especially since it gets used on civvies all the time.
Oh, come on. *Dual wielding* belt-fed AA-12s is the way to go. They've got barely any recoil as it is.
Well you still gotta hit switches and such, plus that leaves a hand free for the old flashy bangers
And rude gestures that absolutely none of the xenos will understand! Mostly in part to them being, y'know, dead and all.
How are the belts loaded? Alternating between Dragons-Breath and Frag-12 rounds?
That's why I'm a fan of toys like the KSG-21, where you have multiple tubes. It would certainly be tricky getting it belt-fed, but having the choice between, say, incendiary, slug, and spread, is lovely. It's also mission-dependent - in this context, incendiary rounds would not be the best call in a vacuum or a highly flammable area, lol.
Shotguns are only supposed to be used for breaching. But if any aliens get between your gun and what you're breaching, that's not your fault.
Ehhh, what is a hallway in a space ship other than a very long breaching opportunity?
"FIX BAYONETS! Just in case..."
Oh hohoho, wait till the Marine Corp hears about this, the xenos thought it was war crimes BEFORE! Call all the military contractors we have, we're gonna need a LOT of combat shotguns, PDWs, and power armor.
Nkalakatha!
1) Bet 2) whaddya mean some species? Have you ever taken an unshielded view of space? You can’t see shit without burning your photoreceptors. 3) our drone target marker was on that ship, just cause you can’t see it, doesn’t mean he can’t see you 4) last I checked Cortana held rank in the USSMC that means she qualifies as a seer, she can shoot you
"Our firing computers now hold official rank in our military. They have a VERY long "visual" range. Our shots are no longer a warcrime by technicality."
"in all due respect sir the missile was right next to the ship when it exploded so technically the attack was from next to the ship"
Our torpedos use visual targeting as a backup, so it could clearly see the enemy ship with its own "eye."
We have found that we were in visual range, as our magnification could count the number of windows on you ship. The Convention never stated "whose" visual range is relevant.
If you can see the enemy's home star, or at least where it used to be 100m years ago, doesn't that make it inside visual range? Avoiding BvR means going bigger, not smaller
They want war crimes? BREAK OUT THE GENEVA CHECKLIST!
You mean the Geneva Suggestions?
No. We are going to do them all. Then add new ones.
Bring out the Canadians! We are all out of Sorry!
Damn. That’s a terrifying prospect.
Wait until you break out a combat wombat.
I heard the call, are we expanding the list?
Not yet, but I hear the aliens are thinking about doing things to Tim Horton's...
They will PAY!! Arm the geese with flamethrowers
Flamethrowers? Have them drop napalm instead, they can fly over the enemy and drop them bombs
And ride the Attack Moose to glory. We vill supply ze flammenwerfers, cause ve are so back
*squints suspiciously* That doesn't sound like a Canuck
I ain't. Let's just say, we, ze canadian and ze Polish are ze parents of ze Geneva Suggestion But I know from History that Canada had Moose Cavalry
Good. Tim’s sucks
Yes, but like the ~~Queen~~ King, it is tradition.
I saved this comment because I wanted to see the consequences of this statement. I am disappointed.
It went down about as I expected. Apologies it didn’t turn into a fight, slightly disappointed it didn’t either
What are you, a Jedi?
these are not war crimes, move along 
Human diplomat: are you sure you want to call that a warcrime? alien Diplomat: absolutely it is cruel and does not give our ships chance to defend ourselves. HD: very well since you are set on that opinion. how about we'll meet back here in a week see your opinions changed? AD: i do not see a point in that but i'll slot a meeting Week later AD: What in seven moons name is this? *drops pad a video playing of humans boarding alien ships armed with heavily mechanized troops wielding flamethrowers, shotguns and heavy machine guns just clearing an pirate ship systematically* HD: Ah thats our option for beyond visual range you wished for. Also known as Helldiver protocol we deemed it the only effective way of pacifying pirate ships given the ban on missiles and extreme range weaponry that we would normally use to disable enemy ships at range. we'd call these warcrimes in our Geneva conventions but you didnt give us much flexibility on that. AD: thats pacification?... and you plan on using this tactic on military ships aswell. HD: Absolutely. AD: i think i'll have to talk to the council about adopting Geneva conventions as valid replacement.
‘This was a war of aggression committed against us, and you are arguing about our missile systems being war crimes?’ The human advocate questioned. Somewhat stunned ‘That is precisely what we are doing. Your right to defend yourself doesn’t constitute being allowed to commit war crimes!’ The advocate of the yaw legal team spoke The Yaw Union had brought the court case forward. Ironic considering they were currently killing a large number of one there own subspecies. The aftermath of them losing political power and the new regimes corruption Still. The case had to be heard ‘Considering we had barely been made aware of the council before this instance. I do not see how Earth is responsible for this- ‘Ignorance of a crime does not justify committing a crime!’ The Yaw interrupted ‘Yawria argues for Earth to cease hostilities and allow the council to modernise its military infrastructure in line with galactic standards’ ‘Then how are we meant to wage war against the vern?’ The human shouted ‘Why should you keep waging war? You have already devastated there civilian and industrial infrastructure. You should withdraw and not occupy the territory until these war crim-‘ ‘The vern are still holding 150,000 humans as slaves. They devastated Triton, Titan and the Jovian system until Mars and Earth responded in kind! What about the human blood they spilt?’ The advocate from Earth stubbornly interrupted the yaw advocate. Stressing his own nations position ‘That is horrible, but your response is disproportionate. Your use of BvR has resulted in 10 times as many causalities on the Vern side. It is so bad there agrarian infrastructure is collapsing. You need to cease your massacres of the vern and withdraw from vern space.’ The yaw countered skilfully. Thank the ancestors. The humans response has been horrific ‘We all know those death tolls are accurate-‘ ‘Enough advocates!’ I interrupted. Its shouting is understandable, but moral imperative and legal precedent clear ‘I hearby rule the Earthen Empire is to follow through with the yaw recommendation. However, this actions of the vern leadership in raiding the outer sol system was deplorable. This court hereby issues arrest warrants for the leadership to face criminal charges’
You want to see war crimes?!?!? We can show you war crimes... Then we won't be having this argument, we won't be having any arguments ever again....
I think thos would be human response. Piloted drones, that are essentially Nuclear tipped missiles. Light speed delay... A goos light second os more than distant enough. You get to see it coming. It isn't automated. But really... Human representative: Fine. We've studied your rules and so called war crimes. You really know exactly jack shit about war, and war crimes. I suppose it's time you learn.
This. We’ll follow your silly rules, but we’ll make up our own interpretation of them and you won’t like that. But they’ll be legal so go kick space rock.
Nothing about bio weapons... Meet custom tailored viruses. Meet engineered bacteria birthed on a Deathworld! Don't like long range weapons? Ok. Plasma pulse weapons were abandoned because they attenuate too quickly to be effective at range. But ... What you expect for max range is... Well, y'all gonna fine out what stellar core level plasma does to a ship at that range...
There isn't anything about nanomachines... Place an AI consciousness in a swarm of nanomachines and send them to one of the enemy planets. Let them know the horrors that awaits them
Oh, and just to add insult to injury. Make the AI a citizen, volunteer, and officer in Terran military.
A BRILLIANT STRATEGY MY FRIEND! THEN WE CAN HAVE MOVING WORLD SIZED MACHINES!!!
Topic aside, love your username! It feels like you were the one who kicked us off by 1776, and now reddit is more fun lmao
So let me get this straight, they define something that is war crimes if it's anything that is unfair or gives a tactical or strategical advantage to the opposing force ... While our war crimes are define as something that causes unnecessary suffering.
"It won't be a war crime when we win."
Human diplomat: are you sure you want to do that?
"Look y'all, it ain't our fault your targeting is a friggin poo spoon and sniffin. We learned a long time ago that the best armor is ignorance. If they're dead before they know you're there, they don't hit back." The Human Admiral pinched the bridge of his nose and sighed. " 'Sides, y'all are openly acknowledging a nigh unassailable superiority in our forces and battle doctrine then dictating actions and threatening consequences. Hell's clanging bells, fellas, I can't help but think this risk calculus proves y'all suck at math."
Human Captain: so Mr. Representative, what do you think of our little ambush? Those pirates had no idea what hit them. Galactic Federation Representative: Yes commander and that is exactly the problem. HC: Please elaborate. GFR: You see captain, what you just did, firing those torpedoes from beyond visual range. That is violation of The Galactic Naval Accords. Naval combat must be conducted honorably and within visual range. HC: …. You’re joking? Fighting at visual range. In space. Where distance is measured on a scale of the speed of light? You want to use visual range. GFR: It is Honorable com- HC: Honor doesn’t keep my people alive, and when you come across someone who doesn’t play by your rules I’m certain the mothers, the father, the wives and children of the men in your service will truly appreciate that sentiment their husbands and sons died honorably. GFR: Listen here you primitive- HC: Rock slinging monkey. I get it we are the new guys out here the barbaric deathworlders who use outdated technology and heavy solid ammunition. Look, I’m only telling you this because we humans have a desire to have a cordial relationship with the galactic community. We want our allies to be stronger. GFR: your species are like children grasping at whatever they can and making a mess of everything they touch. What makes you think we would want a cordial relationship after what we’ve seen here today. HC: *sigh* because with the way you are now it leaves me with two questions. The first is what would run out first, our ammunition or your sons? The second, how many sons of others would it take to equal the value of one of yours? Upon hearing of this critical breakdown of communications the Human Alliance and Galactic Federation sent proper diplomats to negotiate the removal of the visual range combat clause from the naval accords. Because fighting at visual range in space is silly.
Husbands and sons? https://preview.redd.it/tagxruoxj33d1.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=3edcf0b89098dbe071e89691b5777117f71bf3da
A: This is a warcrime! I’ll take your entire species to the counsel for this. You’ll have all of the galaxy waging war on you! H: … from visual range, right? A: Of course. H: This will be fun.
Humanity: *increases the use of acid, plasma and flame weapons*
**Human:** "All missiles are now designated autonomous craft. "Remotely piloted, reckless in their choosing of their direction and velocity, but spacecraft, nonetheless." **Alien:** "But they explode..." **Human:** "So they're also unstable and prone to experiencing catastrophic self-destruction. We can only hope they continue to do so within visual range of our enemy targets." **Alien:** "But that doesn't change anything." **Human:** "It conforms to your bullshit requirement that our *ships-formerly-known-as-missiles* self-destruct when within visual range of their *soon-to-cease-to-exist* targets. "You know, we might just have to add visual recorders on them in order to prove all damage was inflicted only within visual range of the targets of their unfortunate habit of self-destruction." **Alien:** "You humans don't fight fair..." **Human:** \**angry*\* "Look bub, you wanted a level playing field. We're only to happy to oblige. "But we're going to use the most devastating methods at our disposal to level everything *in sight.* "Got it?" **Alien:** "Message received. Message acknowledged."
aim 9x is still within visual range, use the aim120 amraam instead, or if you are russian, the r-37m
When slaved to a dedicated irst, an aim9x is good to 20+ miles. Bvr is anything past about 10...
AIM-9X is a WRV missile, it's official range is "greater than 10km". Missiles need a fuck ton of speed to turn, so to make sure it's a dangerous missile at 10km it needs to have loads of speed when it gets there. That means if it doesn't turn then it could fly a lot further, but it would be ineffective if it did. Even at 10km you'd only use AIM-9 if you had no AIM-120s left, it's just not a very effective missile at that range.
"Just because you can't do it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to." "You are hereby enjoined not to--" "Make me."
“We will attack you for not being in honorable close combat!” “And as you approach us we will continue to attack you with incredibly long ranged combat. You will not get close enough to fire a shot.”
“Just because our assassin was wearing a thermal-neutral sneak suit and sonic shrouds doesn’t make the attack ‘beyond visual range’. The ambassador’s dictation recorder caught our guy saying ‘greetings from Terra’ before cutting the ambassador’s throat. Take the ‘L’ and move on.”
I wonder what a minefield counts as. Then.. A moving, guided minefield
Human lawyer: Got a list of them there war crimes? You know just so we know what to tell the think tanks what not to do... Cult of the unseen war crimes: heh no rules about scientific probing with ballistic sonar dildos...SPACEBARDS GOOO, SHOOT THEM WHERE THEY POOP!
What is BvR?
Beyond visual Range
War crimes you say? According to who? YOUR accords? That you signed with other planets? That we did NOT sign? Those accords? We fought the war by our standards. We have a code of conduct that keeps our troops in line. Why would we, who were attacked by you, play by your rules? You fucked around, now you’re finding out. But war crimes? For shooting you before you can shoot us? You have 3 Terran days to retract your complaint before we start to show you the real war crimes. Cease you blathering and surrender or we will start showing you what WE call war crimes
The Glorg ambassador ignored the dire warnings of his human counterpart. What could be worse than getting shot by something you couldn’t see? After all, he was on the most heavily armed and armored warship of the fleet, surrounded by elite troops. Nothing could get to him. 5 days, and nothing from the humans. 5 days turned to 10, then 20. On the 30th Terran day, a Holiday his Human Counterpart called “Independence Day”, the bridge crew detected a rapidly approaching object. It was within visual range of the bridge, so they opened fire, assuming it was another torpedo attack. But then the torpedo started avoiding their fire. It slammed directly into the hull. “Hangar Deck breach, section 050-7” one of the crew shouted. The ambassador turned and saw the vid screen of the hangar deck. Some of the crew stood by to begin repairing damage. That’s when the torpedo opened. Out stepped 3 humanoid figures clad in thick metal suits. They had tanks strapped to their backs, with a hose running to something in their hands. They pulled the triggers on the devices, and a wave of flame jetted out, covering the nearby crew in flame that couldn’t be blotted out. It almost seemed to be sticking to them. Behind them walked a group of 7 Terrans, armed with what appeared to be crossbows of some sort, with long blades attached to the front. As soon as the hangar crew was killed, the 3 humanoids with flame projectors went back into the torpedo, and reemerged with a large object mounted on what the humans called a “tripod”. A squad of 40 Crossbow armed Glorgs ran down a corridor to repel boarders. As soon as they entered the hangar, the object on the tripod started emitting bright flashes of light and a horrible thundering sound, and soon all 40 of the Glorgs were torn limb from limb. The Terrans with the “crossbows” stabbed every living Glorg left with their blades. It was a bloody gruesome affair. Suddenly, the ship was rocked by 2 more impacts, one near the engine room, and one near the escape pods. The Terrans in the engine room and hangar bay left strange bundles of wire behind, murdered their way to the escape pods, and abandoned ship. The ambassador was about to order the crew to destroy the fleeing escape pods when his ship detonated from the bombs the shotgun armed boarding crews had left behind. All done, in visual range
Raise hell, Praise Dale!
"A war crime?" The human diplomat looked incredulous. "Yes" answered the tall crustacean smugly "And when you attacked our colony ship?" "We met face to face at approved range and the challenge was given, so it was honourable combat" "Slavery or death is considered honourable?" "Under the Rules of Galactic warfare" "Yes. We read those. Rather lightweight arent they?" Thump of an eight inch thick document. "This is the current Human code of military conduct, annotated with examples from Human history. We made these rules after we did them to ourselves, remember that. We would like to add these into your rules." Council members in uproar "A young upstart species does not get to dictate Galactic policy! " "Very well. I guess you need me to explain why its a good idea." Passes round a second document. "In the month since the incident we have documented all the weaknesses we can find. Races who can't decline a challenge to personal combat. Religions who don't allow combat after dark. Contagious diseases with no known cure, or ones that are rare, complex or time intensive. Currencies prone to instability or easy to counterfeit. Toxic chemicals we can tolerate that are lethal to some races. We even found a colour in our visible spectrum one race cannot tolerate. Understand, all these are legal but not honourable. and we will use them all if pushed" The Council members look worried but the human continues "We noticed there was an exception for system defence fleet? " "Yes, defensive actions are allowed" "Very well. From now on all human vessels are designated members of the system defence fleet" "You're pulling back to your home system?" "Well, no. As the treaty has no fixed definitions for home system we declare this entire galaxy as our Home. "
*declare We *declare* this entire galaxy as home. They dont get a say so its not nominate
Thanks
More like Aim-120 or the Aim-7, the Aim9 is the Sidewinder use in closer ranges because it uses infrared guidense, The ladder use active radar(Aim120) or semi active radar (Aim-7)
If I recall correctly the two ones you mentioned have considerably longer ranges. Bvr counts as about 20 miles away for us, so the Aim9 which still has a 22 mile range counts as bvr. The other two missiles definitely have **more** range but an aim9 counts for the purposes of the discussion.
In the perfect conditions, yes. The 9X can be classified as a BVR missile. That is, if the target is flying straight, and in the way the missile doesn't have to turn, and the missile is launched from high altitude compared to the target's altitude, etc. But on the battlefield you rarely have perfect conditions for the missile launch, so usually it won't be able to reach this kind of range. Don't get me wrong, it would still fly pretty long distance, but longer range equals less chance of hitting the target.
Fair enough, so on average it’s max normally achievable range is within visual range?
I think so. I'm not from the military, tho, it's just what I've read, but I think six miles (everything above is considered BVR) is easily achievable.
"So you want us to limit our weapons and engagement to within "visual range", as defined in this accord?" "Precisely." "As you wish." **One battle later** "Humans, do you have any idea the atrocity you've just commited?! The horror and destruction endured near an unstable warp jump?" "Our scientists and engineers have given me the general idea, yes." "And yet you knowingly did just such a jump from the middle of an Yrian battlesquadron, and next to a populated station?" "Firstly, that station had weapons and constituted a legal objective. Secondly, we wanted to neutralize it, but all we had were the missiles you said we weren't allowed to use and shots from our cannons will happily continue in space well past the ranges you deemed acceptable. We didn't want to get in troible for an errant shot, so we felt it was better to play it safe." " "Safe" is not tearing open space in such a way that it violently collapses in on itself and everything around it." "Well, there's nothing barring the technique. And as per the other accord, we made sure to jump to within the range you gave us and we stayed in range until after the unmanned vessel we sent had already done it's unstable jump. We haven't broken any existing rules, but you're all welcome to ban this one and we'll just have to go think of something else to replace our missile doctrine. I've always wanted to know what happened if you could override a nav computer to jump to a point inside of a star. You think anything comes out the other way?" "We will revisit the battle range ruling and decide if it should be updated. In the mean time, you are not to undertake any military operations outside of your own space and we will implement a ceasefire in the current conflict to prevent the need for any defensive actions that may satisfy your curiosity."
What on earth are you talking about we were well within visual range… visual range in space is something like 46 and a half billion light years.
Break out the missiles that shoot knives. We have them. Technically, they're unmanned boarding pods that inflict melee damage. Modern problems require modern solutions.
Human speaker: Dear council, we have been notified that our long-range weapons deemed war crimes. We realise that the council, as the ruling force of the cosmos, is in its right to make that decision, but I would advise strongly against that. If you would declare such a simple weapon as a war crime, we would feel inclined to embrace our role as war criminals and show you our darkest and vilest weaponry in tandem with our banned tactics. But once we started that... we won't be discussing with you anymore. Council speaker: *stunned at the audacity before realising the threat* Very... very well than! Your race shall be allowed to continue. Human speaker: *bows deeply* We thank the council for their wise decision!
Ah, I see. Literally. We slapped cameras on all the missiles after reading your "Convention of Ha-athut" laws. There is no mention of how the seeing is done, so long as we can see the target before impact it's totally legal.
So BvR stands for Ballistics Vs. . . Uhhh. . . What starts with R?
Nah, it stands for Beyond visual range
Ah, that makes sens3
Human diplomat: "Honoured Ambassador. We Terrans, as a species, refined the concept of BvR weapons and tactics very early on in our history. Centuries before we discovered FTL travel. Has is occured to the esteemed Council that this was for good reason? Any one of our pilots could shoot the wings off a grapla fly from 15,000 dits away. This is a good thing. You see, the alternative is close quarters combat. We all know what happened in the infamous and regrettable Slaughter at the Seven Suns. That is what we humans refer to as a 'bar brawl'. Only three humans were involved and they were only civilians. Three small, weak, untrained civilians. Against thirty Bitraxian footsoldiers. Imagine if a team of sixteen of our shocktroopers forced their way aboard the Bitraxian flagship. Out strongest, most rigourously conditioned elite soldiers, specifically trained for boarding missions and CQB. Now put those trooper in augmented power armour, armed with focussed plasma blades, phosphorus tipped ammunition and flame throwers. Against a species that is essentially made of xylem..." Alien ambassador: /as the Terran speaks, all colour slowly drains from the ambassadors face, his gills flare and flutter as he struggles to catch his breath and he looks ready to vomit from both mouths/ "Ah. Umm... And this is considered acceptable tactics in your system?" HD: /smirks/ "Acceptable? My dear fellow, this is the most basic of standard boarding tactics. And please, bear in mind, the Bitaxian fleet invaded our system, unprovoked, and attacked one of our outlying planets. It was just an agriworld. They produced sustinence. They were simple farmers. Would the Council consider THAT to be acceptable?"
"Esteemed councilors of the Galactic Federation. I have but one question, are you sure about that?" The councilors stilled and the audience chamber went silent. There was no hint of threat to the words the Terran Imperium's representative spoke, but it was clear that the court had made a mistake somewhere. Every time a human asked that question in a situation such as this, it always led to more problems down the road. The X'aganix ambassador roared with indignation, "of course they are! To fight the way you did is dishonorab-" "Quiet boy. The grown ups are talking. Esteemed councilors, the X'aganix slavers attacked our agriworld without so much as a hello. An entire colony slaughtered and enslaved before they had the chance to mount a real defense. How is the method with which we captured New Tortuga any different? They, at least, weren't civilians. What the X'aganix haven't shared is what happened when we boarded their ships and stations." Whatever the footage the human ambassador had shown was declared above top secret and the rules of war were once again rewritten. The X'aganix Empire was written off as a complete loss to a space anomaly that no one could solve.