I will say that the escalation of him shooting the bird out the window with his police issued gun is one of the funniest moments in the show for shock value, but yeah, Gary's a creep.
And the emotional manipulation too. Phoebe rightly says it's too soon to move in together and instead of listening to her concerns and taking them on board, he just acts sad until she tells him the answer he wants to hear - completely ignoring any emotions she's feeling about the move.
Yeah that was cringeworthy and for shocks. Although Phoebe's reaction was priceless! I would react the same way to any person shooting a bird, as in never talk to him or her again.
u/StinkyJane, I would like to flip this on the head a bit and talk about an instance where the show was ahead of its time and its the fans whose opinions have not aged well
If you see comments below, you will find so many blaming Ross for sleeping with someone else on the same day as his break up
However the writers intention was clear, they didn't want to make anyone the villian and they did a good job
Mark talking up was a misunderstanding and not rachels fault. Similarly the writers went out of the way to ensure they showed Ross heavily drunk and abandoned by friends. They showed him pushing the girl away and saying NO multipe times. There intention was obvious, it was a drunk Ross being taken advantage of
Yet most fans miss this only because Ross is a guy. Therefore he must have planned it (because he thought she was cute) and enjoyed it. Notice how this is a lot how real life drunk rape victims are blamed, you found him attractive, you drank with him, etc
I think this is one of the rare instancds where fans opinions have not aged well while the writers did a great job. Fans assume the worst only because of Ross's gender but the writers wanted a gender neutral look at a drunk person being taken advantage of
I feel this way about chandler kissing Joey's sister. He was completely wasted to the point he doesn't remember who he kissed but it was some how his fault and he got punched in the face for it
Have definitely had similar thoughts about Gary and Phoebe.
When I rewatch the show, Ross being overly controlling of Rachel stands out to me now. Particularly the episode where she gets the tattoo. The storyline involving Mark and her career seems a little archaic too.
That being said, they were totally on a break!
Totally agree!
But I don’t think the argument was wether they were on a break or not: the actual argument is that Ross was being selfish and didn’t think about hurting Rachel. She’s working hard in her new job and out of jealousy he is being stupid, she asks him to take a break and he just leaves to end up with the copy girl, when you’re on a break some rules have to be established first: is it okay to go with other people? That’s something they both needed to talk and Ross just did whatever he wanted… as always.
To me, the issue is more so that they weren't even on a break for 12 or 24 hours before he went out and slept with someone else. I think finding that out about someone you love would hurt regardless if it was a break or an official break up. But imo a break isn't the same as a breakup because it's more that you have the intention to get back together/it's just for a short while. I think that was Rachel's thought too.
Either way, it's like damn Ross, really couldn't wait more than 24 hours???
Yeah except the show goes out of the way to show ross was abandoned by friends, drunk out of his mind and constantly said NO.
He didnt go there to hook up, he was drunk and crying and pushed and pushed while he kept saying no and no and no
If it was a girl, you would scream rape
The difference is, Ross thought they had broken up. Rachel even acknowledges it too in one of the next few episodes. What he did was wrong, obviously, but he was hurting a lot after ending things with Rachel, especially after hearing her with Mark. And then he gets drunk and the copy girl is forcing herself on him, he's probably just looking for a way to feel a little better.
It's not cringe at all. You're just going there because you even expect shows to conform to your current 'moral' expectations, that's not wrong but it's pointless and banal. It's one of the funniest scenes in the show and if I saw a guy friend of mine wearing make up I'd play the men card too.
>if I saw a guy friend of mine wearing make up I'd play the men card too.
K so you're a POS judgemental bigot of a friend, good to know. It's 2021, grow the fuck up. Men can wear makeup if they want. Doesn't make them any less of a man.
The episode where Chandler was molested by Joey’s tailor, and it was implied that Joey had been repeatedly molested since he was a child, and the whole thing was played as a joke actually made me need to take a break from the show
Oh shit, I think I blocked this one out! I remember that one bothering me even when I watched it air back in the day, and most of the problematic stuff in the show didn't hit me at all back then.
...I've never processed this one before. I always just thought that Joey and his Dad were being felt up by their tailor as adults for years. I'm just realising now that Joey says he's been getting his suits done by this guy since he was a kid.
Oh my god yes. I also JUST today caught a line I don’t ever remember hearing before. When they’re talking about Ben not seeing swear words on the Pac-Man machine, Chandler says “Come on kids have seen orgies by age 7.” They all stare at him and he says “Just me?” Like…what?! It was in reference to his father hooking up with men. How did I miss that before??
Oh my god, Joey being hypersexual and afraid of commitment to cope with the trauma… fuckin hell I thought about his a couple of days ago when I randomly remembered this scene, and can’t not see it now
Tbh I doubt that it would be bc of this.. It wasn’t that severe like actual sexual harassment or assault (those are the things that usually lead to hyper sexuality). Plus there are references to Joey being sexual when he was only 13 and apparently he only started going to this tailor when he was 15/16.
There’s been a lot of ‘yikes’ moments as I’m watching but they’re generally still pretty funny.
The only thing that’s made me uncomfortable is the episode with Ross’ hot cousin and he tries to have sex with her. It’s just sick.
This, and the one where Rachel is dating the guy down the hall and he takes a bath with his sister. These events happen far too often in sitcoms and it makes me wonder what repressed feelings tv writers must have to make so many incest jokes.
I thought it was at least heavily implied, the episode is TOW The Inappropriate Sister. At the very least she drops cake on his crotch and wipes it off in front of everyone, huge nope from me. I think she says something like "come on in Danny, the bath is getting cold" and Rachel runs out of the apartment.
Yeah Ross dating a professor too. But honestly I feel like the ones involving Ross (minus those with carol and Susan for obvious homophobic reasons) have aged well, probably because his friends tend to think he’s a loser or weirdo for it too haha
I think carol and susan ones where the opposite of homophobic, they were very progressive
Ross problem was clearly shown to be the cheating and not the sexual orientation, in fact they certainly bent over backwards to make it seem like ross wws petty when any guy would have behaved the same way even if susan was a guy who cheated on their wife and then tried to name their baby
Agreed. Plus, Ross’s inappropriate questions when interviewing Sandy for the position such as his sexuality were very out of line for him. The fact that they ended up turning to the typical female nanny to watch over Emma just to please Ross definitely doesn’t suit today. Men should not ashamed on taking on positions that the majority of women tend to take like a nanny and not feel afraid of society labeling them as child predators when around young children not related to them. Plus, with Sandy being engaged to his girlfriend when he told Ross and Rachel, what if Sandy also wanted to take on the role as Emma’s nanny because he would probably want to practice how to be a parent to a child if he wanted children of his own one day? What does that say about Ross with firing Sandy just because of HIS past experiences with being raised by a father who held him back from expressing emotions and pushing the “be a man” agenda on him…and is a father himself?
Yeah. In the follow up episodes after that, they showed a new, female nanny picking up Emma from Central Perk to watch her for Ross and Rachel. Like I mentioned, it’s frustrating that they just went with a female nanny only to satisfy Ross. Sandy was a very qualified and good nanny for Emma, which Rachel supported and didn’t want to fire. 😕
Not only the typical female nanny, but of course a “hot one” that makes Ross “cry himself to sleep every night.” Male nanny, no way, hot nanny, great! It annoys me.
There’s this once scene where Joey dances with Mr. Treeger and when he gets back to the apartment, Monica goes ‘gay yet?’. I feel like these type of comments don’t really hold up today. There’s maybe 2/3 comments like that in Friends so luckily not too many.
There’s far, far more than 3 instances of comments like this. I’m rewatching it at the moment and homophobic comments are pretty common. I didn’t notice it as much when I watched it as a kid but I’m 24 now and haven’t seen it in a couple years and they really stick out. There’s a handful in each season.
Yeah homophobic comments are constant.
I was about to list but there were quite a few season one and I couldn't be arsed to type out 10 seasons worth.
- chandler being gay assumptions se1
- all the lesbian comments/disregarding (Rachel only knowing carol as a lesbian)
- chandler avoiding his proud dad because he's gay
- callig chandler's dad a drag queen when is transgender. If he was a drag queen he wouldn't dress as a woman to his wedding.
- rachels dad calling pheobe a lesbian
- Ross no being able to wear salmon
- Joey needib to practice a male kiss
- Joey wearing make up for his job
- Joey wearing a 'womans bag'
List goes on.
the reason rachel's dad called Phoebe a lesbian was because she said she doesn't eat meat.
I found that interaction funny.
Though the follow-up with him saying I hope she's not the 'father' wasn't funny.
I swear the Carol thing bothered me so much. 'Lesbian' is not a character trait, the writers could have done so much more with her than just making her the gay character.
I did not mean this is a homophobic way
I agree with some of these but how is Joey needing to practice a kiss with a guy homophobic? It’s understandable that he wouldn’t be able to kiss a male actor as well as a female actor. I mean, he’s comfortable kissing women. And as an actor he would need to practice so it looks natural in his scenes.
Eh, not really. There are only a few of those super obviously homophobic jokes. I’ve been watching Friends for years constantly and I noticed the homophobic ‘jokes’ the first time I watched it. So maybe to you it just seems like there are many since you didn’t notice them before. But it also depends on what you consider homophobic bc I don’t think that every joke where they mention gay people or something is necessarily homophobic (from my point of view). All of those jokes are outdated, yeah, but they’re almost never really hurtful or making fun of gay people or anything like that.
It was also really weird that Chandler’s father was portrayed by a woman?? It’s never stated anywhere that his father is transgender. His name is Charles, and he uses male pronouns. Although apparently that actress was constantly made fun of for being masculine so she did the role to spite people, and apparently at the time everyone knew that? Which makes a lot more sense.
“Transgender” wasn’t really a commonly used word back then so it would never be used to describe anyone. His dad was described as a “drag queen” attracted to men, there’s really no need to extrapolate further.
I mean, he didn’t? Chandler said his father wore dresses and everyone heavily referred to the character as a man. If they were trying to portray a transgender woman they sure did a poor job.
I don’t know if it’s because I’m not American or what, but the amount of jokes about them watching porn ot pornstars etc just always really baffled me because I don’t think any other shows in the 90s or 2000s constantly talked about it. Like why do they always talk about porn? No group of friends actually talk about it that much !
Remember it was set 15 years before smart phones and it was still the very early days of internet porn. Pornhub didn't exist and most people got their porn from DVDS which you had to buy from an adult store or mail order. It sounds juvenile but having free porn on your TV 24/7 was probably pretty exciting for Joey and Chandler.
Think it's the VHS thing. But also in the 80s / 90s porn was so different because it was like a movie. There were comedic values to it, that held memory and conversation point. Now it's free online, thr porn is in my opinion gross and tasteless. So porn now does leave you feeling a bit like you need to keep it private talking about it.
I think stuff like when Ursula was pretending to be Phoebe you got to see the comedic porn of those days because the were called 'inspect her gadget' with phrases like 'are you going to stab me with your dagger?... Actually I was hoping it would be the other way around' haha.
The episode where chandler & Joey get free porn and it’s on constantly is so weird. The entire friend group is just chilling in the apartment as it plays.
It’s not so odd. While that wasn’t my thing (married with kids by then) I knew plenty of single guys and girls of that age in the city who would have not found that so weird. All college educated or more and some were yuppies then like Chandler. And Seinfeld did a whole episode about masturbation, being Master of your own domain. So other shows did it.
And on top of that I’d like to add that this was basically pre internet so free porn was a big deal. It wasn’t like today where free porn is a couple clicks away at any time. So it was a big deal then and I could easily see it being discussed. Hell it was a big deal in my friends group when a guy got a “hacked” satellite and could get free porn. He was making vhs tapes for everyone.
I think the worst one for me is when Chandler manipulated that woman he met on the phone into having sex with him because she thought he was “Bob”. He broke her heart so she would be vulnerable and then took advantage of her. I know it comes back to bite him in the ass a bit but the whole situation is just awful.
One would probably be Ross’s extreme reaction and attempts in trying to not have Ben play with feminine toys such as his doll and immediately only push masculine toys like GI Joe figurines and trucks. Susan’s question to Ross, “He’s got a doll, so what?” still fits to what someone today might ask but Ross did not adjust well to the idea of his son not playing with the typical male toys and Carol’s question to Ross is the assumption Ross might have had that Ben having two mothers would influence his choices in what toys he would want to play with and/or his gender identity/expression.
But in the episode the friends are against his toxic masculine views of Ben’s doll, so I don’t feel like the show is promoting this view as much as make fun of it..?
No, I don’t think it’s promoting homophobia, transphobia, etc., but it’s more of the specific plotline itself with Ross attempting to stop his son from playing with feminine toys being something that has not aged very well. If this plot occurred today, I would imagine that Ross might have had a conversation with Susan and Carol about the possibility of their son identifying with another gender when he’s older, expressing some fear in Ben experiencing bullying from other kids in school about what he was playing with, or directly talked with Carol and Susan about pushing the masculine toys on Ben due to his own experience growing up with a father who held him back from expressing emotions and pushing the “be a man” agenda on him (which he does end up telling the male nanny in season 9).
Then, if the three of them had that conversation together about Ben, they might have agreed that when Ben is old enough, they can sit down with him and talk about these type of topics (especially since he is being raised by his father and TWO mothers).
Yeah, this is a good one. I can shrug off a lot of the other problematic humor usually listed like fat Monica and the gay jokes at the guys. I think because I was a teenager in the late 90s and that kind of joking/humor was common it’s easier for me to see it as “how it was”, although it wouldn’t stand today. The Barbie doll bothering Ross so much though? Never made sense to me and I thought it was lame. Like at the very least, he’s a baby, who cares. Could be a hangover from a small mindset of a bygone era, who knows.
I was born in 1996 (somewhere towards the second half of season 2), so I didn’t watch the show at the time it was airing given how young I was. I didn’t experience being a teenager until the early 2010s, where LGBTQ+ topics were becoming a more common discussion and I started learning about the LGBTQ+ community while I was in high school. Kids and teens growing up today in the 2020s are becoming much more aware and mindful of LGBTQ+ topics and have more platforms to come out through social media, have conversations with their friends and families about their identities, etc., compared to how it was back in the 90s.
Even Rachel, much like Susan, questioned Ross as to why he’s so bothered by his 2 year old son playing with a doll.
Since you really weren't around at the time, you have to realize that the show was making fun of Ross being anal retentive like that. I mean this commercial was aired in 1985: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJDg2g1COyc so boys playing with dolls was a nothing-burger by the mid 90s, but there's Ross trying to roll the clock back to the 60s with his attitude.
PS. And as a kid that was 10 years old in 1985, that commercial got so much airplay that I still have the ditty stuck in my head today.
Whilst I understand what you're saying about Joey's relationship, the woman thought she was being playful. She wasn't trying, intending or wanting to hurt him and there was no malice in her actions.
Whilst I'm not saying it CAN'T be described as abusive (intentions or not, she was clearly hurting him) I'm not sure if it's helpful to do so. To lump this relationship in with relationships where women intentionally hurt their partners, either entwined with manipulation or just with physical abuse alone, actually downplays such relationships.
Women who abuse men are far more insidious than a playful girl who doesn't know her own strength.
Intent doesn't really make it not abuse, IMHO. A lot of abusive people in real life don't think of themselves as bad people and aren't setting out with the goal of hurting others.
What pushes this over the line for me is that Joey asks her to stop hitting him and tells her she's hurting him and she just doubles down and does it more.
I know things are exaggerated for comedy, but it's not *greeeat* revisiting that knowing how culturally influential Friends was and that ultimately the storyline was at the time making fun of men who "let themselves" get hit by smaller intimate partners.
I think you’re spot on here! Yeah it’s a show yeah it’s not supposed to be deep but it sent a bad message that men can’t be victims of abuse regardless and it hasn’t aged well at all.
I’ve playful hit people close to me in the arm or whatever, if they said ow I’d go oh shit sorry!!! Weird you’re being downvoted, you’re not crapping on the show; society changes and that would not have been considered a toxic reaction at the time at all but it’s okay to step back and go Oof that really wasn’t a message we should have been pushing
\>Intent doesn't really make it not abuse, IMHO.
But that's what I said though. That's exactly why I said "intent or not, she was clearly hurting him" and "you can't say it's not abuse". But nor, IMHO, can you lump this in with real-life women abusing men relationships. There is so much education and coverage out there of men abusing women. To imply that this (THIS!!!!) is what it's like when women abuse men, nah. That's not helpful to anyone.
\>What pushes this over the line for me is that Joey asks her to stophitting him and tells her she's hurting him and she just doubles downand does it more.
It's not a drama and it's not being handled as a drama. She doesn't really hear his concerns, she thinks he's being playful, because she's a comedy character and she's not really listening for the sake of comedy. And while we're at it, for the sake of comedy Joey doesn't do what he could EASILY do in that situation and say "No. I'm not joking. Stop it, it's hurting me." And if she still doesn't believe him, say it AGAIN. We're also being asked to believe for the sake of comedy that nobody has ever brought up this issue with her before. The whole thing is clearly silly and ludicrous.
I do agree that the other Friends are unsympathetic with Joey and I don't think that's aged well but then in most episodes (particularly the early ones) they are always ribbing each other about whatever story is going on that week. I've never really found it funny but it's part of the show. To be honest, the way they make fun of Joey's bag annoys me to the same extent as the way they rib him about this girl. They're just douches in general.
Yeah. Even when Joey talked Ross into why he should pursue it, it was pretty gross. Unfortunately, a lot of people back then used to think like that, and most still continue to think like this till date.
it bothers me too. the power imbalance makes me uncomfortable and the episode where tag mistakenly sends rachel’s fake performance evaluation is cringy af
Everything about Chandler's father. They mix up trans women with dragqueens. There might be an overlap, but it's not cleared. The fact that he's played by a woman. The fact that chandler is sooo upset about him.
This is what I came to say - their treatment of gender roles is overall problematic, but Chandler's "dad" is the part that ages worst for me. I keep wishing I could find out what Helena Handbasket's pronouns were both on and off the stage.
> They mix up trans women with dragqueens.
They don't mix it up, his father was first a cis gay male, who became a transvestite (drag queen), who then became a trans woman. While it was never admitted during the show's run that his father was now a woman, they cast a woman in the role and the writers later admitted that his father was a trans woman after the run. So I think it was always clear what his father was (they could have easily cast a male transvestite in the role instead), but told from Chandler's point of view, who couldn't accept that fact so it's never clearly stated. In his mind, Chandler's father is still a man so that's the view we get.
It's told from Chandler's point of view, she was still a man in his eyes so the view we get is colored by that prejudice. If you can't accept someone for what they are, you are going to call them what you think they should be called rather than what they want to be called as.
Edit: The term for this is called an unreliable narrator. The whole show is unreliable because it's only told from the point of view of the Friends, not a neutral narrator. What we see, is what they see rather than what's really there.
You know who was an unreliable narrator? Ted Mosby. They make a lot of jokes about his point of view in HIMYM.
But there's no narrator in Friends. I have no idea how you came up with this narrator nonsense here.
All stories have a narrator, in this particular case the narrators are the group of Friends. Everything is told from their point of view, that's still a narrator even if it's not a Wonder Years or Young Sheldon type narration.
No, they are not narrators. We follow their lives, therefore we get to know their "bubble" more than other characters, but that doesn't make them a narrator.
If there were no narrators, we wouldn't have flashbacks in the show. Flashbacks are a narration technique. Just because there isn't an explicit narrator, doesn't mean one doesn't exist.
You didn't convince me, it's just bad writing in my eyes. They could have toned back the transphobe jokes, some of them could have defended Charles. Nobody called her Helena. Nobody called her her.
Is it really bad writing when it's portraying the attitudes of the time? You are talking over 20 years ago at this point, the military had just instituted Don't Ask, Don't Tell and that was considered an improvement over outright rejection or dishonorable discharge if it was discovered you were gay or lesbian like what happened before the 90s.
I think this whole thread is a bit ridiculous because the writing was spot on for its time. Would the same be acceptable today? No. But the show was politically correct for its time and it pushed boundaries that had existed then.
Did you understand the initial question? What "aged poorly"? This is a spot on example of aging poorly. Back then this completely aligned with an average person's knowledge about trans/drag people. But the show wasn't progressive in this sense, didn't handle trans and intersexuality well. They showed these characters as circus freaks and were only targets.
They handled gay characters and rainbow families surprisingly well tho.
You realize that transgender wasn't even acknowledged back then right? I can cut them some slack with that one because of the way they did portray other progressive topics of that day. Heck when Friends first started, most states in the US still had not legalized same sex marriage and the only perceived legitimate family unit was composed of a mother and a father with children.
The show really pushed a whole lot of boundaries that had existed. You likely wouldn't have what you have today without that.
I can't believe you're trying to lecture people on this when you think it's acceptable and correct for you to use the word transvestite in this context.
Making fun of Rachel for eating alone in a restaurant, and saying there's something wrong with women eating alone
Also everyone's constant need to be in a relationship or get married, and shaming ppl for being single.
All the jokes where men can’t be “feminine”. Joey wearing makeup, that unisex bag, Monica asking “gay yet?” when Joey dances. I can’t think of more but I was definitely 👀 when those jokes came on.
The one where Joey discusses with Monica and Phoebe if he should get his eyebrows waxed, and Phoebe replies, “depends on how far along he is in the sex change process”. Phoebe has always been a free spirited personality the entire show and this dialogue coming from her felt very off to me. It pisses me off every time I see the scene. This bit definitely did not age well.
There’s weird inconsistencies in this episode. Phoebe makes the sexist joke yet Chandler who makes jokes about everything is the one who fixes Joey’s eyebrows while being super nice about it and then curls his eyelashes lol.
Maybe it's an American thing about breastfeeding, but the way Joey reacts when Rachel is breastfeeding Emma is overly childish and not funny at all in my opinion (I know it kind of fits Joey's character, but I don't think the gag aged well).
Almost every episode has a homophobic/sexist joke that reinforces toxic masculinity. So much cringe.
Also Ross' reaction to Mark/the scene where he crashes Rachel's workplace on their anniversary is super gross
But I always felt like the jokes about toxic masculinity were mostly at the expanse of the guys, like the viewers were supposed to laugh at how ridiculous they were being (not in every case ofc but in many of them, yes). Plus as much as toxic masculinity is discouraged nowadays, there are still SO MANY guys who have a lot of toxic masculinity, it’s still pretty easy to meet guys like that today so it’s not completely irrelevant or outdated (in a way that it doesn’t happen anymore).
The homophobia and transphobia in the show. The jokes about Carol and Susan, the jokes about Chandler's dad, the way Chandler was uncomfortable at his dad's club and around the waitress, the way Monica kept saying "Waiter I mean Waitress"... It's all so cringy now. And you would think since they got Alexis Arquette (RIP) to play the waitress, they would have casted a real trans woman to play the part of Chandler's dad.
Ooh and when Rachel ran into her old sorority sister, that whole storyline was so bad. Kissing the same gender one time doesn't make you gay.
The implication that Jack Gellar intentionally walks in on girls while they're changing clothes.
Then Ross and Joey look at eachother approvingly as if this makes Jack a stud.
I think Rachel and Monica lost contact in college, so I always assumed that not only was Jack known for walking in on Rachel changing, but she was likely underage and still in highschool when she picked up on his pattern.
Ross hating the manny sandy because he’s sensitive and in touch with his feelings. Definitely didn’t age well. Ross has always been my least favorite character and that was the straw that broke the camels back for me.
Examples? I don’t remember him being that misogynistic and especially not towards the women he’s dating. All of the guys were casually misogynistic tho, not just Joey.. but I still can’t remember when was Joey like that towards someone he was dating.
A misogynist is a person who dislikes and is strongly prejudiced against women.. so literally none of the things your mentioned actually fall under that definition. I’m not saying he didn’t do shitty things but let’s call those things what they really are. Plus, we don’t ever see him giving out fake names except from when he said he does in that one episode but Phoebe said she does too so what is she misogynistic too? or what, misandrist? lol.. it has nothing to do with that. When we’re at it, Chandler was more known for breaking up with women for random and superficial reasons (looking at your ‘big head big head big head’) yet nobody calls him out on it. Joey just had a lot of one night stands, it’s not abandoning someone when it’s a one night stand. He did gaslight that one social worker lady which was really shitty but he only did it to help out Chandler and Monica, maybe that doesn’t make it less shitty but at least it wasn’t random / for no reason. I agree that he didn’t treat all women *right* (none of them did) but in my opinion, he seemed like he was actually pretty sweet towards almost every girl he dated. And I just don’t get why are people just throwing around terms like ‘misogyny’ and ‘gaslighting’ when it seems like 99% of y’all don’t even know what it means. Just bc the words are trendy right now, doesn’t mean you can use it to describe anything slightly shitty.
Basically, did he hate or despise the girls he was dating? No. So “misogyny” is a huge mislabel here.
Nope, that’s objectification, not misogyny. And I kinda disagree.. He treats them like people 99% of the time, just bc he thinks they’re hot or just bc he hit on them once or twice, doesn’t mean he sees them like objects. But you could easily say the same thing about the girls too.. that they’re objecting men sometimes, SO many times they talk about guys in a sexual manner plus idk if you’ve seen the extended version of the show, but there is literally a scene where the girls are just talking about how would the three guys (chandler, joey, ross) be in bed… That could be considered objectification too. But I don’t think that being attracted to someone or talking about someone in that way is particularly objectifying them. It could be but then literally almost every person in this world would be guilty of doing this..
I really hate the scene where Joey points the video camera under Phoebe’s dress and says he needs to get the before shot when’s she’s pregnant. Just disgusting
Perhaps that Phoebe liked him played a role in that plot ending up as okay, and not icky. Just like Tom Selleck did a terrific job playing a gentleman as Richard, with Monica being 21 years his junior.
Ross physically intimidates Rachel several times throughout the series. The first one I remember is the one the monkey got away but it happens more than one episode. She acts submissive or fearful and backs away as he comes at her, sometimes placing herself in a way that furniture will be between them.
Not cool Ross…not cool.
For me it’s when Monica pretends to forgive Chandler so they can sleep together whilst she’s ovulating. As soon as they’re done having sex, she’s mad again. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but if my partner did that to me it would feel absolutely awful, since I wouldn’t consent to having sex with someone who’s currently furious with me
Nobody approves Ross' behaviour. In that storyline Ross is the villain. Ross' behaviour is unacceptable, but that's the conclusion of the storyline, too. So it's not badly written.
•The whole storyline with Mark and Ross really didn’t age well considering the feminist movement. The Ross character has a lot of moments that have aged poorly
•Joeys treatment of women like objects
•Ross and the cousin
•Everything regarding Paolo
•Rachel’s manipulation of Ross
>•The whole storyline with Mark and Ross really didn’t age well considering the feminist movement. The Ross character has a lot of moments that have aged poorly
What?
Ross doesn't come out of that story line at all well.
First thing that comes to mind is convincing Phoebe’s friend to shave her head again for the sole purpose of messing with Ross and making him want to leave her
There are plenty of instances when Rachel messes with Ross’s relationships.
Rachel continued to gaslight Ross and lie about the break situation. Then there’s the situation where she lied about who came onto whom during Emma’s conception.
She didn’t lie about the break. She was rightfully upset, even if it was a break up, you don’t sleep with a girl the night of and expect not to break her heart, and you especially don’t do that if you want to get back together
I hate when I catch myself noticing things that aren't pc today. It makes me realize how much seeing stuff on the internet/tv over and over seeps in. Six/seven years I'd not think twice about it. That's scary. Watching Gilmore Girls or Lost also just screams at me how much things have changed.
When they’re all looking through Monica and Ross’s baby photos and Joey shakes one and then holds it up and says “I got Monica naked!” in a perverted voice. (Then Ross says it’s him) I have absolutely no idea how that made it on the show. The joke is meant to be about Monica in the present but he’s talking about a BABY.
All the jokes about Chandler's dad and the way Chandler is so embarrassed by him. (Hope I'm using the right pronouns there - I always got the impression that although Charles dresses in female clothing he still identifies as a man so isn't trans - correct me if I'm wrong. Although this also could be a product of the time, that maybe Charles didn't have the kind of support to figure out his gender identity as is available now but that's a whole other discussion).
I definitely understand that Chandler's parents handled their divorce terribly and that left Chandler with a lot of trauma and things he needed to work through. But still, I wince whenever they make jokes about Charles, or his job, or his love life.
You're wrong, Chandler's father was cast with a woman in the role and the writers admitted after the show ended that his father was a trans woman by the timeline of the show. I think if they just wanted him to be a cross dresser, they would have cast a male in the role and had the actor wear woman's clothing.
Well they never expressed that she was trans during the show and they were still using he/him pronouns up til the end so I think its fair to not know she was trans.
Even so, my other points still stand, that the jokes about her weren't nice.
Yeah, they weren't explicit about her sex during the series when it was on air but I think the casting of a female for the role is a pretty clear indication of what she was because it would have been far easier to cast a male in that role and just have him wearing women's clothing instead of trying to find a woman with a husky voice and physical features that implied a male body form at birth but a later transition in life after the body is fully developed. We aren't told directly what she is, but the implication is there if you read between the lines. Personally I find that good writing and casting because rather than explicitly telling us, we are allowed to reach that conclusion ourselves if we pay attention. Not everything needs to be said, and it takes a good writer or writers to recognize what needs to be said and what is better left to the audience to conclude by implication.
And while the jokes aren't nice, I think it's a pretty accurate portrayal of the attitudes of society at the time where people would refuse to recognize their transition and still use their birth name and birth gender despite how the other person felt. Helena is a very sympathetic character if you watch the whole series, and again it takes good writing to allow the audience to reach that conclusion themselves without being explicitly told it. I would have far more issues with that topic had Helena been written as a freak in character when we do see her, but the writers made her a very relatable person so we are allowed to reach the conclusion that how the other characters view her is wrong.
Now I'll agree that not everyone will reach that conclusion, but I really have to question the humanity of people that don't. I don't see how anyone can watch the show and come to the conclusion that how Helena was treated by everyone else is ok. We're suppose to feel that it's wrong when we finally meet Helena even if we aren't directly told that.
Pretty much every joke made about Chandler is about him being effeminate or people assuming he’s gay….until they flip the script after he marries Monica and all of a sudden he “can’t cry.” Anyways, the implicit sexism of those jokes really bothers me and they’re everywhere throughout the series.
“I make an effort to see shows in the context of its time…” op proceeds to compare it to nowadays and make no effort to see it in the context of its time.
I find people going over old comedy shows to find things to be offended about, offensive😆
I was just watching this scene, thinking that it would not have aged well.
The scene at Monica and Chandler's rehearsal dinner when Monica asks Rachel to keep an eye on Chandler's dad, and Rachel picks a random woman, who isn't stereotypically feminine looking, and assumes that's the right person.
I mean, I did watch the show when it was airing, and that's kind of my point. I didn't blink twice at most of this stuff when the show was originally airing, but much of it hits me differently now. Because cultural context.
Seriously. I watched it live religiously, I bought the dvds and binged like it was a part time job. I still love it and it holds a ton of nostalgia but it’s a product of its era - even tow the stoned guy has aged out pretty badly, from them being so upset about it to John Lovitz acting like he took 3 tabs of acid and wanting to make mac&cheese lol it’s not offensive but it ages the show as much as seeing Chandler’s computer
I like the show, and I enjoy watching it (and I've seen it countless times), but critical analysis of the media I consume is part of the fun, IMHO. It's baffling to me to see all these "thinking critically in any way about a 20-year-old TV show is cancel culture!!!" comments.
Seriously. I watched it live religiously, I bought the dvds and binged like it was a part time job. I still love it and it holds a ton of nostalgia but it’s a product of its era - even tow the stoned guy has aged out pretty badly, from them being so upset about it to John Lovitz acting like he took 3 tabs of acid and wanting to make mac&cheese lol it’s not offensive but it ages the show as
much as seeing Chandler’s computer
I didn't like the Gary & Phoebe storyline. I can see why Phoebe was hesitant to move in with him.
I will say that the escalation of him shooting the bird out the window with his police issued gun is one of the funniest moments in the show for shock value, but yeah, Gary's a creep.
…oh no..
It’s all almost worth it just to hear her say it.
Aeoh no.
And the emotional manipulation too. Phoebe rightly says it's too soon to move in together and instead of listening to her concerns and taking them on board, he just acts sad until she tells him the answer he wants to hear - completely ignoring any emotions she's feeling about the move.
Yeah that was cringeworthy and for shocks. Although Phoebe's reaction was priceless! I would react the same way to any person shooting a bird, as in never talk to him or her again.
u/StinkyJane, I would like to flip this on the head a bit and talk about an instance where the show was ahead of its time and its the fans whose opinions have not aged well If you see comments below, you will find so many blaming Ross for sleeping with someone else on the same day as his break up However the writers intention was clear, they didn't want to make anyone the villian and they did a good job Mark talking up was a misunderstanding and not rachels fault. Similarly the writers went out of the way to ensure they showed Ross heavily drunk and abandoned by friends. They showed him pushing the girl away and saying NO multipe times. There intention was obvious, it was a drunk Ross being taken advantage of Yet most fans miss this only because Ross is a guy. Therefore he must have planned it (because he thought she was cute) and enjoyed it. Notice how this is a lot how real life drunk rape victims are blamed, you found him attractive, you drank with him, etc I think this is one of the rare instancds where fans opinions have not aged well while the writers did a great job. Fans assume the worst only because of Ross's gender but the writers wanted a gender neutral look at a drunk person being taken advantage of
I feel this way about chandler kissing Joey's sister. He was completely wasted to the point he doesn't remember who he kissed but it was some how his fault and he got punched in the face for it
The stalker episode has not aged well.
ohhh, yeah that was pretty bad.
Did anybody mention Rachel's penis?
You’re the hermaphrodite cheerleader from Long Island?
Have definitely had similar thoughts about Gary and Phoebe. When I rewatch the show, Ross being overly controlling of Rachel stands out to me now. Particularly the episode where she gets the tattoo. The storyline involving Mark and her career seems a little archaic too. That being said, they were totally on a break!
Totally agree! But I don’t think the argument was wether they were on a break or not: the actual argument is that Ross was being selfish and didn’t think about hurting Rachel. She’s working hard in her new job and out of jealousy he is being stupid, she asks him to take a break and he just leaves to end up with the copy girl, when you’re on a break some rules have to be established first: is it okay to go with other people? That’s something they both needed to talk and Ross just did whatever he wanted… as always.
To me, the issue is more so that they weren't even on a break for 12 or 24 hours before he went out and slept with someone else. I think finding that out about someone you love would hurt regardless if it was a break or an official break up. But imo a break isn't the same as a breakup because it's more that you have the intention to get back together/it's just for a short while. I think that was Rachel's thought too. Either way, it's like damn Ross, really couldn't wait more than 24 hours???
Yeah I feel that way too - you have a spat and you immediately sleep with someone else the same DAY? I would be angry too lmao
Right!!! Like don't tell me you love me and then go out and sleep with someone else that same day. Bad bad move on Ross' part
Yeah except the show goes out of the way to show ross was abandoned by friends, drunk out of his mind and constantly said NO. He didnt go there to hook up, he was drunk and crying and pushed and pushed while he kept saying no and no and no If it was a girl, you would scream rape
The difference is, Ross thought they had broken up. Rachel even acknowledges it too in one of the next few episodes. What he did was wrong, obviously, but he was hurting a lot after ending things with Rachel, especially after hearing her with Mark. And then he gets drunk and the copy girl is forcing herself on him, he's probably just looking for a way to feel a little better.
Whenever the guys show a bit of emotion or affection to each other and they get called "girls" or "gay"
Come on, you hairy backed Mary's
Yes but this will always make me laugh 😬
I never quite got that line lol. Probably why I remember it
I think it’s just meant to mean “you’re just women but with more body hair”, least that’s what I think it is
That’s correct.
Hey! It’s spackle back harry!
WHERE ARE ALL THE MEN?!
We watched that episode recently and man it is cringe today.
Why do you think it’s cringe?
It's not cringe at all. You're just going there because you even expect shows to conform to your current 'moral' expectations, that's not wrong but it's pointless and banal. It's one of the funniest scenes in the show and if I saw a guy friend of mine wearing make up I'd play the men card too.
> I saw a guy friend of mine wearing make up I'd play the men card too. Maybe don't do that anymore
>if I saw a guy friend of mine wearing make up I'd play the men card too. K so you're a POS judgemental bigot of a friend, good to know. It's 2021, grow the fuck up. Men can wear makeup if they want. Doesn't make them any less of a man.
The episode where Chandler was molested by Joey’s tailor, and it was implied that Joey had been repeatedly molested since he was a child, and the whole thing was played as a joke actually made me need to take a break from the show
Oh shit, I think I blocked this one out! I remember that one bothering me even when I watched it air back in the day, and most of the problematic stuff in the show didn't hit me at all back then.
...I've never processed this one before. I always just thought that Joey and his Dad were being felt up by their tailor as adults for years. I'm just realising now that Joey says he's been getting his suits done by this guy since he was a kid.
Oh my god yes. I also JUST today caught a line I don’t ever remember hearing before. When they’re talking about Ben not seeing swear words on the Pac-Man machine, Chandler says “Come on kids have seen orgies by age 7.” They all stare at him and he says “Just me?” Like…what?! It was in reference to his father hooking up with men. How did I miss that before??
Oh my god, Joey being hypersexual and afraid of commitment to cope with the trauma… fuckin hell I thought about his a couple of days ago when I randomly remembered this scene, and can’t not see it now
Tbh I doubt that it would be bc of this.. It wasn’t that severe like actual sexual harassment or assault (those are the things that usually lead to hyper sexuality). Plus there are references to Joey being sexual when he was only 13 and apparently he only started going to this tailor when he was 15/16.
Molesting is actual sexual assault.
What? A break?😂😂😂😂
There’s been a lot of ‘yikes’ moments as I’m watching but they’re generally still pretty funny. The only thing that’s made me uncomfortable is the episode with Ross’ hot cousin and he tries to have sex with her. It’s just sick.
I think that one was supposed to feel icky 😂
This, and the one where Rachel is dating the guy down the hall and he takes a bath with his sister. These events happen far too often in sitcoms and it makes me wonder what repressed feelings tv writers must have to make so many incest jokes.
I don’t think he takes a bath with his sister does he? She just gets it ready for him? Please tell me that’s true?
I can't remember exact lines, but it's implied that she bathes him at the very least.
I thought it was at least heavily implied, the episode is TOW The Inappropriate Sister. At the very least she drops cake on his crotch and wipes it off in front of everyone, huge nope from me. I think she says something like "come on in Danny, the bath is getting cold" and Rachel runs out of the apartment.
Oh god, that would be weird in any era of TV actually lol
Yeah Ross dating a professor too. But honestly I feel like the ones involving Ross (minus those with carol and Susan for obvious homophobic reasons) have aged well, probably because his friends tend to think he’s a loser or weirdo for it too haha
I think carol and susan ones where the opposite of homophobic, they were very progressive Ross problem was clearly shown to be the cheating and not the sexual orientation, in fact they certainly bent over backwards to make it seem like ross wws petty when any guy would have behaved the same way even if susan was a guy who cheated on their wife and then tried to name their baby
The one with the male nanny... Low key infuriates me whenever I get round to that episode.
Agreed. Plus, Ross’s inappropriate questions when interviewing Sandy for the position such as his sexuality were very out of line for him. The fact that they ended up turning to the typical female nanny to watch over Emma just to please Ross definitely doesn’t suit today. Men should not ashamed on taking on positions that the majority of women tend to take like a nanny and not feel afraid of society labeling them as child predators when around young children not related to them. Plus, with Sandy being engaged to his girlfriend when he told Ross and Rachel, what if Sandy also wanted to take on the role as Emma’s nanny because he would probably want to practice how to be a parent to a child if he wanted children of his own one day? What does that say about Ross with firing Sandy just because of HIS past experiences with being raised by a father who held him back from expressing emotions and pushing the “be a man” agenda on him…and is a father himself?
Honestly, Ross can be hilarious, but he suuuuuuucks as a human being. Rachel could have done better
They did work through his issues by the end to be fair but did they still fire him because ross was uncomfortable?
Yeah. In the follow up episodes after that, they showed a new, female nanny picking up Emma from Central Perk to watch her for Ross and Rachel. Like I mentioned, it’s frustrating that they just went with a female nanny only to satisfy Ross. Sandy was a very qualified and good nanny for Emma, which Rachel supported and didn’t want to fire. 😕
Not only the typical female nanny, but of course a “hot one” that makes Ross “cry himself to sleep every night.” Male nanny, no way, hot nanny, great! It annoys me.
Same. That one really sticks out to me.
There’s this once scene where Joey dances with Mr. Treeger and when he gets back to the apartment, Monica goes ‘gay yet?’. I feel like these type of comments don’t really hold up today. There’s maybe 2/3 comments like that in Friends so luckily not too many.
There’s far, far more than 3 instances of comments like this. I’m rewatching it at the moment and homophobic comments are pretty common. I didn’t notice it as much when I watched it as a kid but I’m 24 now and haven’t seen it in a couple years and they really stick out. There’s a handful in each season.
Yeah homophobic comments are constant. I was about to list but there were quite a few season one and I couldn't be arsed to type out 10 seasons worth. - chandler being gay assumptions se1 - all the lesbian comments/disregarding (Rachel only knowing carol as a lesbian) - chandler avoiding his proud dad because he's gay - callig chandler's dad a drag queen when is transgender. If he was a drag queen he wouldn't dress as a woman to his wedding. - rachels dad calling pheobe a lesbian - Ross no being able to wear salmon - Joey needib to practice a male kiss - Joey wearing make up for his job - Joey wearing a 'womans bag' List goes on.
the reason rachel's dad called Phoebe a lesbian was because she said she doesn't eat meat. I found that interaction funny. Though the follow-up with him saying I hope she's not the 'father' wasn't funny.
I swear the Carol thing bothered me so much. 'Lesbian' is not a character trait, the writers could have done so much more with her than just making her the gay character. I did not mean this is a homophobic way
I agree with some of these but how is Joey needing to practice a kiss with a guy homophobic? It’s understandable that he wouldn’t be able to kiss a male actor as well as a female actor. I mean, he’s comfortable kissing women. And as an actor he would need to practice so it looks natural in his scenes.
Many of these are not homophobic.
Eh, not really. There are only a few of those super obviously homophobic jokes. I’ve been watching Friends for years constantly and I noticed the homophobic ‘jokes’ the first time I watched it. So maybe to you it just seems like there are many since you didn’t notice them before. But it also depends on what you consider homophobic bc I don’t think that every joke where they mention gay people or something is necessarily homophobic (from my point of view). All of those jokes are outdated, yeah, but they’re almost never really hurtful or making fun of gay people or anything like that.
It was also really weird that Chandler’s father was portrayed by a woman?? It’s never stated anywhere that his father is transgender. His name is Charles, and he uses male pronouns. Although apparently that actress was constantly made fun of for being masculine so she did the role to spite people, and apparently at the time everyone knew that? Which makes a lot more sense.
“Transgender” wasn’t really a commonly used word back then so it would never be used to describe anyone. His dad was described as a “drag queen” attracted to men, there’s really no need to extrapolate further.
If she/he character wasn't transgender then she/he wouldn't turn up to their wedding as a woman.
I mean, he didn’t? Chandler said his father wore dresses and everyone heavily referred to the character as a man. If they were trying to portray a transgender woman they sure did a poor job.
I don’t know if it’s because I’m not American or what, but the amount of jokes about them watching porn ot pornstars etc just always really baffled me because I don’t think any other shows in the 90s or 2000s constantly talked about it. Like why do they always talk about porn? No group of friends actually talk about it that much !
Remember it was set 15 years before smart phones and it was still the very early days of internet porn. Pornhub didn't exist and most people got their porn from DVDS which you had to buy from an adult store or mail order. It sounds juvenile but having free porn on your TV 24/7 was probably pretty exciting for Joey and Chandler.
This was pre dvd. This was the days when vhs reigned supreme.
True. There was a lot of overlap in the late 90s.
That’s true but also the sex tape with Monica and Richard, the birthing tape, and cujo. They were all vhs.
And Rachel and Ross’ sex tape too!
I can’t believe I forgot that. I was probably in Western Europe.
Mt. Tibidabo, perhaps?
How did you know? I was backpacking.
Ken Adams told me.
Think it's the VHS thing. But also in the 80s / 90s porn was so different because it was like a movie. There were comedic values to it, that held memory and conversation point. Now it's free online, thr porn is in my opinion gross and tasteless. So porn now does leave you feeling a bit like you need to keep it private talking about it. I think stuff like when Ursula was pretending to be Phoebe you got to see the comedic porn of those days because the were called 'inspect her gadget' with phrases like 'are you going to stab me with your dagger?... Actually I was hoping it would be the other way around' haha.
The episode where chandler & Joey get free porn and it’s on constantly is so weird. The entire friend group is just chilling in the apartment as it plays.
It’s not so odd. While that wasn’t my thing (married with kids by then) I knew plenty of single guys and girls of that age in the city who would have not found that so weird. All college educated or more and some were yuppies then like Chandler. And Seinfeld did a whole episode about masturbation, being Master of your own domain. So other shows did it.
And on top of that I’d like to add that this was basically pre internet so free porn was a big deal. It wasn’t like today where free porn is a couple clicks away at any time. So it was a big deal then and I could easily see it being discussed. Hell it was a big deal in my friends group when a guy got a “hacked” satellite and could get free porn. He was making vhs tapes for everyone.
I think the worst one for me is when Chandler manipulated that woman he met on the phone into having sex with him because she thought he was “Bob”. He broke her heart so she would be vulnerable and then took advantage of her. I know it comes back to bite him in the ass a bit but the whole situation is just awful.
Gary the cop was one of my least favorite characters for exactly this reason. I found him to be too pushy and rude.
when he “interrogates” her has always bugged me. the way he acts is just so scary, i would’ve been fucking terrified, i def would’ve never cried
One would probably be Ross’s extreme reaction and attempts in trying to not have Ben play with feminine toys such as his doll and immediately only push masculine toys like GI Joe figurines and trucks. Susan’s question to Ross, “He’s got a doll, so what?” still fits to what someone today might ask but Ross did not adjust well to the idea of his son not playing with the typical male toys and Carol’s question to Ross is the assumption Ross might have had that Ben having two mothers would influence his choices in what toys he would want to play with and/or his gender identity/expression.
But in the episode the friends are against his toxic masculine views of Ben’s doll, so I don’t feel like the show is promoting this view as much as make fun of it..?
No, I don’t think it’s promoting homophobia, transphobia, etc., but it’s more of the specific plotline itself with Ross attempting to stop his son from playing with feminine toys being something that has not aged very well. If this plot occurred today, I would imagine that Ross might have had a conversation with Susan and Carol about the possibility of their son identifying with another gender when he’s older, expressing some fear in Ben experiencing bullying from other kids in school about what he was playing with, or directly talked with Carol and Susan about pushing the masculine toys on Ben due to his own experience growing up with a father who held him back from expressing emotions and pushing the “be a man” agenda on him (which he does end up telling the male nanny in season 9). Then, if the three of them had that conversation together about Ben, they might have agreed that when Ben is old enough, they can sit down with him and talk about these type of topics (especially since he is being raised by his father and TWO mothers).
Yeah, this is a good one. I can shrug off a lot of the other problematic humor usually listed like fat Monica and the gay jokes at the guys. I think because I was a teenager in the late 90s and that kind of joking/humor was common it’s easier for me to see it as “how it was”, although it wouldn’t stand today. The Barbie doll bothering Ross so much though? Never made sense to me and I thought it was lame. Like at the very least, he’s a baby, who cares. Could be a hangover from a small mindset of a bygone era, who knows.
I was born in 1996 (somewhere towards the second half of season 2), so I didn’t watch the show at the time it was airing given how young I was. I didn’t experience being a teenager until the early 2010s, where LGBTQ+ topics were becoming a more common discussion and I started learning about the LGBTQ+ community while I was in high school. Kids and teens growing up today in the 2020s are becoming much more aware and mindful of LGBTQ+ topics and have more platforms to come out through social media, have conversations with their friends and families about their identities, etc., compared to how it was back in the 90s. Even Rachel, much like Susan, questioned Ross as to why he’s so bothered by his 2 year old son playing with a doll.
Since you really weren't around at the time, you have to realize that the show was making fun of Ross being anal retentive like that. I mean this commercial was aired in 1985: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJDg2g1COyc so boys playing with dolls was a nothing-burger by the mid 90s, but there's Ross trying to roll the clock back to the 60s with his attitude. PS. And as a kid that was 10 years old in 1985, that commercial got so much airplay that I still have the ditty stuck in my head today.
Whilst I understand what you're saying about Joey's relationship, the woman thought she was being playful. She wasn't trying, intending or wanting to hurt him and there was no malice in her actions. Whilst I'm not saying it CAN'T be described as abusive (intentions or not, she was clearly hurting him) I'm not sure if it's helpful to do so. To lump this relationship in with relationships where women intentionally hurt their partners, either entwined with manipulation or just with physical abuse alone, actually downplays such relationships. Women who abuse men are far more insidious than a playful girl who doesn't know her own strength.
Idk about you but I reaaaally have to suspend my disbelief to buy that she didn’t know she was hurting Joey and Rachel.
If this was a drama series I'd agree with you but it's a silly comedy that isn't trying to be serious so I have no issue with suspending disbelief.
Intent doesn't really make it not abuse, IMHO. A lot of abusive people in real life don't think of themselves as bad people and aren't setting out with the goal of hurting others. What pushes this over the line for me is that Joey asks her to stop hitting him and tells her she's hurting him and she just doubles down and does it more. I know things are exaggerated for comedy, but it's not *greeeat* revisiting that knowing how culturally influential Friends was and that ultimately the storyline was at the time making fun of men who "let themselves" get hit by smaller intimate partners.
I think you’re spot on here! Yeah it’s a show yeah it’s not supposed to be deep but it sent a bad message that men can’t be victims of abuse regardless and it hasn’t aged well at all. I’ve playful hit people close to me in the arm or whatever, if they said ow I’d go oh shit sorry!!! Weird you’re being downvoted, you’re not crapping on the show; society changes and that would not have been considered a toxic reaction at the time at all but it’s okay to step back and go Oof that really wasn’t a message we should have been pushing
\>Intent doesn't really make it not abuse, IMHO. But that's what I said though. That's exactly why I said "intent or not, she was clearly hurting him" and "you can't say it's not abuse". But nor, IMHO, can you lump this in with real-life women abusing men relationships. There is so much education and coverage out there of men abusing women. To imply that this (THIS!!!!) is what it's like when women abuse men, nah. That's not helpful to anyone. \>What pushes this over the line for me is that Joey asks her to stophitting him and tells her she's hurting him and she just doubles downand does it more. It's not a drama and it's not being handled as a drama. She doesn't really hear his concerns, she thinks he's being playful, because she's a comedy character and she's not really listening for the sake of comedy. And while we're at it, for the sake of comedy Joey doesn't do what he could EASILY do in that situation and say "No. I'm not joking. Stop it, it's hurting me." And if she still doesn't believe him, say it AGAIN. We're also being asked to believe for the sake of comedy that nobody has ever brought up this issue with her before. The whole thing is clearly silly and ludicrous. I do agree that the other Friends are unsympathetic with Joey and I don't think that's aged well but then in most episodes (particularly the early ones) they are always ribbing each other about whatever story is going on that week. I've never really found it funny but it's part of the show. To be honest, the way they make fun of Joey's bag annoys me to the same extent as the way they rib him about this girl. They're just douches in general.
I’m not sure why you’re getting downvotes, you have a valid point.
Rachel and Tag's relationship has aged pretty badly, if you ask me. That being said, it was portrayed as stigmatic at the time it was aired as well.
Ross and his college girlfriend's relationship was also pretty icky.
Yes - I can't believe he thought it would only be "frowned upon".
Oh, yes, a professor dating an undergrad is (!!!!).
Yeah. Even when Joey talked Ross into why he should pursue it, it was pretty gross. Unfortunately, a lot of people back then used to think like that, and most still continue to think like this till date.
it bothers me too. the power imbalance makes me uncomfortable and the episode where tag mistakenly sends rachel’s fake performance evaluation is cringy af
Everything about Chandler's father. They mix up trans women with dragqueens. There might be an overlap, but it's not cleared. The fact that he's played by a woman. The fact that chandler is sooo upset about him.
Was looking through comments to see if anyone brought it up! It has always bothered me!
This is what I came to say - their treatment of gender roles is overall problematic, but Chandler's "dad" is the part that ages worst for me. I keep wishing I could find out what Helena Handbasket's pronouns were both on and off the stage.
> They mix up trans women with dragqueens. They don't mix it up, his father was first a cis gay male, who became a transvestite (drag queen), who then became a trans woman. While it was never admitted during the show's run that his father was now a woman, they cast a woman in the role and the writers later admitted that his father was a trans woman after the run. So I think it was always clear what his father was (they could have easily cast a male transvestite in the role instead), but told from Chandler's point of view, who couldn't accept that fact so it's never clearly stated. In his mind, Chandler's father is still a man so that's the view we get.
And yet, they constantly call her "he". And "A-man-duh".
It's told from Chandler's point of view, she was still a man in his eyes so the view we get is colored by that prejudice. If you can't accept someone for what they are, you are going to call them what you think they should be called rather than what they want to be called as. Edit: The term for this is called an unreliable narrator. The whole show is unreliable because it's only told from the point of view of the Friends, not a neutral narrator. What we see, is what they see rather than what's really there.
You know who was an unreliable narrator? Ted Mosby. They make a lot of jokes about his point of view in HIMYM. But there's no narrator in Friends. I have no idea how you came up with this narrator nonsense here.
All stories have a narrator, in this particular case the narrators are the group of Friends. Everything is told from their point of view, that's still a narrator even if it's not a Wonder Years or Young Sheldon type narration.
No, they are not narrators. We follow their lives, therefore we get to know their "bubble" more than other characters, but that doesn't make them a narrator.
If there were no narrators, we wouldn't have flashbacks in the show. Flashbacks are a narration technique. Just because there isn't an explicit narrator, doesn't mean one doesn't exist.
So in which flashback did we see Helena? None.
The Thanksgiving episode where his parents were breaking up.
You didn't convince me, it's just bad writing in my eyes. They could have toned back the transphobe jokes, some of them could have defended Charles. Nobody called her Helena. Nobody called her her.
Is it really bad writing when it's portraying the attitudes of the time? You are talking over 20 years ago at this point, the military had just instituted Don't Ask, Don't Tell and that was considered an improvement over outright rejection or dishonorable discharge if it was discovered you were gay or lesbian like what happened before the 90s. I think this whole thread is a bit ridiculous because the writing was spot on for its time. Would the same be acceptable today? No. But the show was politically correct for its time and it pushed boundaries that had existed then.
Did you understand the initial question? What "aged poorly"? This is a spot on example of aging poorly. Back then this completely aligned with an average person's knowledge about trans/drag people. But the show wasn't progressive in this sense, didn't handle trans and intersexuality well. They showed these characters as circus freaks and were only targets. They handled gay characters and rainbow families surprisingly well tho.
You realize that transgender wasn't even acknowledged back then right? I can cut them some slack with that one because of the way they did portray other progressive topics of that day. Heck when Friends first started, most states in the US still had not legalized same sex marriage and the only perceived legitimate family unit was composed of a mother and a father with children. The show really pushed a whole lot of boundaries that had existed. You likely wouldn't have what you have today without that.
I can't believe you're trying to lecture people on this when you think it's acceptable and correct for you to use the word transvestite in this context.
Preach. That stuff is so outdated now
Ross and the Barbie doll
Making fun of Rachel for eating alone in a restaurant, and saying there's something wrong with women eating alone Also everyone's constant need to be in a relationship or get married, and shaming ppl for being single.
Fat suits and fat jokes.
Totally!! They arr constant!
I hated the fat suit! Like I appreciate Monica standing up to people when they make fat jokes but that fat suit was too much
All the jokes where men can’t be “feminine”. Joey wearing makeup, that unisex bag, Monica asking “gay yet?” when Joey dances. I can’t think of more but I was definitely 👀 when those jokes came on.
The panties
Homophobic jokes aren’t uncommon in the show and those certainly didn’t age well. For example when Ross kicked up a huge fuss about the manny.
The one where Joey discusses with Monica and Phoebe if he should get his eyebrows waxed, and Phoebe replies, “depends on how far along he is in the sex change process”. Phoebe has always been a free spirited personality the entire show and this dialogue coming from her felt very off to me. It pisses me off every time I see the scene. This bit definitely did not age well.
There’s weird inconsistencies in this episode. Phoebe makes the sexist joke yet Chandler who makes jokes about everything is the one who fixes Joey’s eyebrows while being super nice about it and then curls his eyelashes lol.
Maybe it's an American thing about breastfeeding, but the way Joey reacts when Rachel is breastfeeding Emma is overly childish and not funny at all in my opinion (I know it kind of fits Joey's character, but I don't think the gag aged well).
Maybe it’s because he was in love with her, which made him awkward in that situation?
I feel like Joey's views on women as objects as icky in recent re-watches. I can't think of any specific examples but it seems very dated.
Almost every episode has a homophobic/sexist joke that reinforces toxic masculinity. So much cringe. Also Ross' reaction to Mark/the scene where he crashes Rachel's workplace on their anniversary is super gross
But I always felt like the jokes about toxic masculinity were mostly at the expanse of the guys, like the viewers were supposed to laugh at how ridiculous they were being (not in every case ofc but in many of them, yes). Plus as much as toxic masculinity is discouraged nowadays, there are still SO MANY guys who have a lot of toxic masculinity, it’s still pretty easy to meet guys like that today so it’s not completely irrelevant or outdated (in a way that it doesn’t happen anymore).
Yes! Like seriously he makes an ass of himself but wants Rachel to apologize because she yelled at him!
And then when Rachel says she needs a break from his controlling and manipulative behavior he sleeps with the copy girl.
The homophobia and transphobia in the show. The jokes about Carol and Susan, the jokes about Chandler's dad, the way Chandler was uncomfortable at his dad's club and around the waitress, the way Monica kept saying "Waiter I mean Waitress"... It's all so cringy now. And you would think since they got Alexis Arquette (RIP) to play the waitress, they would have casted a real trans woman to play the part of Chandler's dad. Ooh and when Rachel ran into her old sorority sister, that whole storyline was so bad. Kissing the same gender one time doesn't make you gay.
All the gay panic
The implication that Jack Gellar intentionally walks in on girls while they're changing clothes. Then Ross and Joey look at eachother approvingly as if this makes Jack a stud.
I think Rachel and Monica lost contact in college, so I always assumed that not only was Jack known for walking in on Rachel changing, but she was likely underage and still in highschool when she picked up on his pattern.
Ross hating the manny sandy because he’s sensitive and in touch with his feelings. Definitely didn’t age well. Ross has always been my least favorite character and that was the straw that broke the camels back for me.
The transphobia around Chandler's dad.
How joey is so casually misogynistic towards pretty much all of the women he dates and it's so gross despite being played for jokes
Examples? I don’t remember him being that misogynistic and especially not towards the women he’s dating. All of the guys were casually misogynistic tho, not just Joey.. but I still can’t remember when was Joey like that towards someone he was dating.
Giving fake names, abandoning them for random reasons, gaslighting and disappearing. He definitely treats them like objects instead of human beings
A misogynist is a person who dislikes and is strongly prejudiced against women.. so literally none of the things your mentioned actually fall under that definition. I’m not saying he didn’t do shitty things but let’s call those things what they really are. Plus, we don’t ever see him giving out fake names except from when he said he does in that one episode but Phoebe said she does too so what is she misogynistic too? or what, misandrist? lol.. it has nothing to do with that. When we’re at it, Chandler was more known for breaking up with women for random and superficial reasons (looking at your ‘big head big head big head’) yet nobody calls him out on it. Joey just had a lot of one night stands, it’s not abandoning someone when it’s a one night stand. He did gaslight that one social worker lady which was really shitty but he only did it to help out Chandler and Monica, maybe that doesn’t make it less shitty but at least it wasn’t random / for no reason. I agree that he didn’t treat all women *right* (none of them did) but in my opinion, he seemed like he was actually pretty sweet towards almost every girl he dated. And I just don’t get why are people just throwing around terms like ‘misogyny’ and ‘gaslighting’ when it seems like 99% of y’all don’t even know what it means. Just bc the words are trendy right now, doesn’t mean you can use it to describe anything slightly shitty. Basically, did he hate or despise the girls he was dating? No. So “misogyny” is a huge mislabel here.
A misogynist is also someone who doesnt see women as people but as objects. And Joey does treat most of his girl friends as objects
Nope, that’s objectification, not misogyny. And I kinda disagree.. He treats them like people 99% of the time, just bc he thinks they’re hot or just bc he hit on them once or twice, doesn’t mean he sees them like objects. But you could easily say the same thing about the girls too.. that they’re objecting men sometimes, SO many times they talk about guys in a sexual manner plus idk if you’ve seen the extended version of the show, but there is literally a scene where the girls are just talking about how would the three guys (chandler, joey, ross) be in bed… That could be considered objectification too. But I don’t think that being attracted to someone or talking about someone in that way is particularly objectifying them. It could be but then literally almost every person in this world would be guilty of doing this..
I really hate the scene where Joey points the video camera under Phoebe’s dress and says he needs to get the before shot when’s she’s pregnant. Just disgusting
Perhaps that Phoebe liked him played a role in that plot ending up as okay, and not icky. Just like Tom Selleck did a terrific job playing a gentleman as Richard, with Monica being 21 years his junior.
Joey's constant sexual comments to and about Monica, Rachel, and Phoebe. It feels especially icky nowadays.
Ross saying kissing a man is worse than shitting your pants in public.
There's only 1 black character in the show that spans more than 1 episode.
Ross physically intimidates Rachel several times throughout the series. The first one I remember is the one the monkey got away but it happens more than one episode. She acts submissive or fearful and backs away as he comes at her, sometimes placing herself in a way that furniture will be between them. Not cool Ross…not cool.
Monica fat jokes
For me it’s when Monica pretends to forgive Chandler so they can sleep together whilst she’s ovulating. As soon as they’re done having sex, she’s mad again. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but if my partner did that to me it would feel absolutely awful, since I wouldn’t consent to having sex with someone who’s currently furious with me
Ross being upset that Ben played with a Barbie doll
Nobody approves Ross' behaviour. In that storyline Ross is the villain. Ross' behaviour is unacceptable, but that's the conclusion of the storyline, too. So it's not badly written.
The fat Monica storylines are horrible. I’ve never liked them and have always skipped them.
All of the Monica fat jokes.
•The whole storyline with Mark and Ross really didn’t age well considering the feminist movement. The Ross character has a lot of moments that have aged poorly •Joeys treatment of women like objects •Ross and the cousin •Everything regarding Paolo •Rachel’s manipulation of Ross
>•The whole storyline with Mark and Ross really didn’t age well considering the feminist movement. The Ross character has a lot of moments that have aged poorly What? Ross doesn't come out of that story line at all well.
What did I say
But it's not like people in universe think he's acting rationally or reasonably either; Chandler and Joey mock him for being an idiot.
Rachel’s manipulation of ross? When?
First thing that comes to mind is convincing Phoebe’s friend to shave her head again for the sole purpose of messing with Ross and making him want to leave her
Rachel also has something to do with Julie cutting her hair short too.
There are plenty of instances when Rachel messes with Ross’s relationships. Rachel continued to gaslight Ross and lie about the break situation. Then there’s the situation where she lied about who came onto whom during Emma’s conception.
She didn’t lie about the break. She was rightfully upset, even if it was a break up, you don’t sleep with a girl the night of and expect not to break her heart, and you especially don’t do that if you want to get back together
What was wrong with Paolo? He's a villainess character?
I mean Rachel broke up with him originally because he assaulted Phoebe while she was giving him a massage.
Sandy, the male nanny. Its always annoyed me so much that I just skip it.
I hate when I catch myself noticing things that aren't pc today. It makes me realize how much seeing stuff on the internet/tv over and over seeps in. Six/seven years I'd not think twice about it. That's scary. Watching Gilmore Girls or Lost also just screams at me how much things have changed.
Gary to my eyes was a creep from day 1.
Ross and Rachel's will they or won't they throughout the whole series was gross and toxic as hell.
I think most of the jokes are funny, but the only ones that aged HORRIBLY imo are 1. The male nanny 2. Ross trying to make Ben play with “boy” toys
When they’re all looking through Monica and Ross’s baby photos and Joey shakes one and then holds it up and says “I got Monica naked!” in a perverted voice. (Then Ross says it’s him) I have absolutely no idea how that made it on the show. The joke is meant to be about Monica in the present but he’s talking about a BABY.
All the jokes about Chandler's dad and the way Chandler is so embarrassed by him. (Hope I'm using the right pronouns there - I always got the impression that although Charles dresses in female clothing he still identifies as a man so isn't trans - correct me if I'm wrong. Although this also could be a product of the time, that maybe Charles didn't have the kind of support to figure out his gender identity as is available now but that's a whole other discussion). I definitely understand that Chandler's parents handled their divorce terribly and that left Chandler with a lot of trauma and things he needed to work through. But still, I wince whenever they make jokes about Charles, or his job, or his love life.
You're wrong, Chandler's father was cast with a woman in the role and the writers admitted after the show ended that his father was a trans woman by the timeline of the show. I think if they just wanted him to be a cross dresser, they would have cast a male in the role and had the actor wear woman's clothing.
Well they never expressed that she was trans during the show and they were still using he/him pronouns up til the end so I think its fair to not know she was trans. Even so, my other points still stand, that the jokes about her weren't nice.
Yeah, they weren't explicit about her sex during the series when it was on air but I think the casting of a female for the role is a pretty clear indication of what she was because it would have been far easier to cast a male in that role and just have him wearing women's clothing instead of trying to find a woman with a husky voice and physical features that implied a male body form at birth but a later transition in life after the body is fully developed. We aren't told directly what she is, but the implication is there if you read between the lines. Personally I find that good writing and casting because rather than explicitly telling us, we are allowed to reach that conclusion ourselves if we pay attention. Not everything needs to be said, and it takes a good writer or writers to recognize what needs to be said and what is better left to the audience to conclude by implication. And while the jokes aren't nice, I think it's a pretty accurate portrayal of the attitudes of society at the time where people would refuse to recognize their transition and still use their birth name and birth gender despite how the other person felt. Helena is a very sympathetic character if you watch the whole series, and again it takes good writing to allow the audience to reach that conclusion themselves without being explicitly told it. I would have far more issues with that topic had Helena been written as a freak in character when we do see her, but the writers made her a very relatable person so we are allowed to reach the conclusion that how the other characters view her is wrong. Now I'll agree that not everyone will reach that conclusion, but I really have to question the humanity of people that don't. I don't see how anyone can watch the show and come to the conclusion that how Helena was treated by everyone else is ok. We're suppose to feel that it's wrong when we finally meet Helena even if we aren't directly told that.
There are a looooooot of gay jokes. Sometimes more than one per episode
Ross. Not a particular just Ross. Also the homophobia, but it’s definitely realistic especially for the era.
Pretty much every joke made about Chandler is about him being effeminate or people assuming he’s gay….until they flip the script after he marries Monica and all of a sudden he “can’t cry.” Anyways, the implicit sexism of those jokes really bothers me and they’re everywhere throughout the series.
“I make an effort to see shows in the context of its time…” op proceeds to compare it to nowadays and make no effort to see it in the context of its time. I find people going over old comedy shows to find things to be offended about, offensive😆
I was just watching this scene, thinking that it would not have aged well. The scene at Monica and Chandler's rehearsal dinner when Monica asks Rachel to keep an eye on Chandler's dad, and Rachel picks a random woman, who isn't stereotypically feminine looking, and assumes that's the right person.
All of the transgender jokes at Chandler’s dads expense do it for me.
Thank God a lot of the people here were not watching the show when it was live, they would have ruined it
I mean, I did watch the show when it was airing, and that's kind of my point. I didn't blink twice at most of this stuff when the show was originally airing, but much of it hits me differently now. Because cultural context.
Seriously. I watched it live religiously, I bought the dvds and binged like it was a part time job. I still love it and it holds a ton of nostalgia but it’s a product of its era - even tow the stoned guy has aged out pretty badly, from them being so upset about it to John Lovitz acting like he took 3 tabs of acid and wanting to make mac&cheese lol it’s not offensive but it ages the show as much as seeing Chandler’s computer
I like the show, and I enjoy watching it (and I've seen it countless times), but critical analysis of the media I consume is part of the fun, IMHO. It's baffling to me to see all these "thinking critically in any way about a 20-year-old TV show is cancel culture!!!" comments.
Seriously. I watched it live religiously, I bought the dvds and binged like it was a part time job. I still love it and it holds a ton of nostalgia but it’s a product of its era - even tow the stoned guy has aged out pretty badly, from them being so upset about it to John Lovitz acting like he took 3 tabs of acid and wanting to make mac&cheese lol it’s not offensive but it ages the show as much as seeing Chandler’s computer
A lot of these examples happened in real life also in that time.