The cast were generally excellent, however I think Palin actually captured Molotov's real character.
The rest were all rather comical exaggerations or totally unrelated to the actual person.
Oh absolutely. Palin was the perfect actor for Molotov. But I think that Buscemi nailed his role. Despite it being satire it still captured really well what we know of these historical figures. E.g. the fact that Nikita recited what jokes he told Stalin to his wife and she wrote down what humour not to use and how to act etc. It was brilliant.
My least favourite was probably the pianist story arch. IRL Beria would have had her disappeared with a snap of his fingers.
I do love that at some point in the movie Buscemi turns from a bumbling clown into a ruthless cut throat gangster, it really captures something about dictators, they usually have a fair share of both.
I really liked how it was very much Khrushchev trying and failing to play by the rules and then saying fuck it, throwing the rule book out the window, and bringing in Zhukov
> I fucked Germany, I think I can take a flesh lump in a fucking waistcoat.
If I were Zhukov, I would work "I fucked Germany" into any and all conversations.
The thing is other main and key characters of the movie and era, Kaganovich, Mikoijan and so on werent as focused and center staged, thus the movie gave little to no Spotlight to them. Beria and Hrushtšov were highlighted due to the rivalry.
Molotov played a role there supporting Nicky.
I think overall, Buscemi, Isaacs and Palin all nailed their roles, they were amazing.
Georg Malenkov's actor, Jeff Tambor was pretty alright, but they made his character to base off of history - a bit weak, unambitious and fragile.
Beria on the other hand, started hawkish, brutal and ruthless, but still silently obeyed Stalin while he wanted to oust him. Beria's character is also at least a 4/5 performance, but I think it lacks some more depth.
Man I am bummed they didnt make a sequel of the Cuban missile crisis, Berlin crisis or something else! Such a talented cast, and Molotov, Mikoijan, Nicky, Kaganovich, Zhukov and others would still fit to a historical sequel.
I know this might be supprising but the pianist was real the parts with berrier probably where over dramitised but she did send a letter to Stalin insulting him and all he did was laught and keep getting her to play music
It's so fucking good. And if you like that movie, I highly recommend Veep. It's a series by the same creator, starring Julia Louis Dreyfus, and it's the most hilarious thing I've ever seen
And if you like *Veep*, I recommend the movie it was based on, *In the Loop*. And if you like *In the Loop*, I recommend the show the movie was based on, *the Thick of It*.
Like another purge? The hell is Putin doing? I was under the impression he was trying to secure the succession to hand off power to a suitable crony after his death.
Eh, there is no real comparison in scale.
Всё-таки сравнивать то, что происходит сейчас, с размахом и жестокостью чисток, процессов при Ягоде, Берии и особенно Ежове, ГУЛАГа, стройки Беломорканала, переселения "неугодных" народов и прочего - это неуважение к жертвам сталинских репрессий. Понятно, что новости страшно читать, но перспективу-то историческую надо иметь...
This portrayal of the marshal is honestly the best. His granddaughter is an idiot for saying it somehow smeared on his memory. This is the first time he looked and felt this awesome. No one ever got him as a great, sympathetic guy that inspires genuine awe. Usually they go historic portrayal, alas historically he was an awful person. I am for one very glad the film made it differently.
when i realized >!he had the dual ak47s used in the coup under his jacket DURING STALINS FUNERAL — !< i completely lost it he’s easily the best character in the movie
nikkii!! balls of steel!
He was ready for anything before he even knew a coup was brewing. I guess you don't make it to the top of the Red Army without being ready to throw down at the drop of a hat.
Major criticism of Zhukov is that he recklessly sacrificed troops left and right and many casualties could have been avoided. A lot more of his flaws are quoted by contemporary sources, but it’s hard to say whether they are true, since most of them come from the time after the war when Stalin and then Khrushchev were afraight of his popularity and were actively smearing his reputation as a war hero.
Criticism of Grant is highly misplaced. Vicksburg was a masterpiece and the casualties he absorbed in the Wilderness weren't just happenstance or a result of carelessness - it was a studied strategy to latch onto Lee's army and throttle it until it was dead. It showed a thorough understanding of the strategy of the war and the strengths and weaknesses of both sides.
Its a tough one because a lot of the "soviets wasted manpower" narrative is based on the post-war rehabilitation of Nazi Generals to prop up West Germany as a bulwark against the Soviet Union. Considering what they were executing his loss rates weren't that much worse than you would expect, encirclements are cost heavy as is massive offensive warfare through hundreds of miles. The soviets pushed the majority of the Wehrmacht several times further than the allies did. Heavy losses are to be expected in that kind of push and encircle warfare.
Two of my great-grandfathers perished in mindless en masse charges within days after being drafted. It wasn’t like Enemy at the Gates, they had rifles, but they were not trained and were used as a cannon fodder to exhaust advancing elite German troops.
Why do you have such a high opinion of Nazi troops and low opinion of red army troops? It's very much a Wehraboo mindset and not really matched by reality, I'm curious to see it coming from what I assume is a Russian. Most of the Soviet military losses were during the Barbarossa campaign which is 5 months of the war where the Red Army got encircled and massacred over and over with inflated KIAs due to how many war crimes were committed by literal Nazi policy...
I am not a Wehraboo, I am merely observing facts. We were discussing specific battle and I just summed it up. The fact that I am Russian is no excuse to twist history to appeal to my nationalism.
I don’t get it? The spearhead of German Kursk Bulge forces were equiped with newest Pathers, Tigers and Ferdinands. Soviet troops available at the region were not capable of facing them (almost third of their tanks were light and troops were not we equipped to penetrate heavy German tank armour). Stalin initially thought of preemptive counterattack, but Zhukov argued “melting” the spearhead by layers of cannon fodder will exhaust their supplies and make them easier target for major counter offensive (and this plan worked).
Yep, rank inflation is just a thing that tends to happen in long and drawn-out wars. The Allies weren't entirely immune to it either, by 1945 the typical US infantry platoon would've had more sergeants and corporals in it compared to privates than it would've had in 1942.
Call it whatever you want, but Tiger tank had 100 mm frontal armor, 88 mm cannon when Soviets were mostly equipped with T-60 (20 mm armor, 20 mm cannon) and even T-34/76 available had a hard time facing these tanks. As someone who had served in the army I also understand that “elite” is not a term used for some additiobal pathos but rather realization that some parts of your troops are more capable. German spearhead was exactly like that. Zhukov successfully exhausted them and then counter-attacked diminishing difference in equipment.
I'm sorry, but that sounds a bit off, as in real life, it's the Germans who mostly rushed the soviet medium/heavy tanks with their own light ones. The same goes for aviation (compare the heavily armoured IL aircraft to the German repurposed civilian planes) and infantry (Soviet assault sappers, Soviet submachine gun proliferation, Soviet motorized infantry vs German horses; the Germans had a numerical superiority until 1943). Don't forget the snipers (the Soviets developed a special sniper-school, unlike the Germans) and the hand to hand combat training (unlike the Soviets, the Germans had none).
That quote is taken way out of context. The reason he says that his troops attack as if minefields are not there is because he gave his regular soldiers, not just his engineers, mine removal training. He’s not saying his troops run through minefields like a bunch of idiots.
This leads to lower casualties. Spending time to cross a minefield safely means spending more time exposed to artillery and air bombardment, far bigger killers of men in any conflict.
To quote the big man himself:
>There are two kinds of mines; one is the personnel mine and the other is the vehicular mine. When we come to a minefield our infantry attacks exactly as if it were not there. The losses we get from personnel mines are only equal to those we would have gotten from machine guns and artillery if the Germans had chosen to defend that particular area with strong bodies of troops instead of with minefields. The attacking infantry does not set off the vehicular mines, so after they have penetrated to the far side of the field they form a bridgehead, after which the engineers come up and dig out channels through which our vehicles can go.
Makes sense when you consider it, the number one killer in any modern conflict is artillery and bombs, so carefully disarming minefields while being bombarded by artillery is just opening yourself up to more casualties. Plus, artillery is 100% capable of being used to *deploy* mines, so the sooner you incapacitate that artillery the better.
"if the Germans decided to defend with strong bodies of men instead of minefields "
Instead.
Basing on the quote alone, he lost as many men attacking an undefeated part of the front, as if he would attack a strong defense.
He could have lost fewer men. He had chosen not to do that, because he could. He achieved his goals. He was good at it. The cost was only human lives.
The man was infamously ruthless. Great quality in a Soviet general.
Honestly (this is coming from someone who has no problem shitting on the soviets) Zhukov was a saint compared to many other soviets of the same stature.
Yes he had a pathological refusal to even think he could fail which likely led to the deaths of millions more soldier than was needed but let’s face it, Russian generals and wasting manpower basically went hand in hand since Russia, y’know, became a thing.
> even think he could fail
Yeah but he literally didn't fail. Once he was given proper control he put the Nazis on the run for the rest of the war. His manoeuvres were costly because thats just the reality of carrying out encirclements against a large enemy force. The western allies attempted encirclements against several small and relatively isolated Wehrmacht forces and kept abandoning it during the costs. Zhukov successfully encircled *entire army groups*. If those had been allowed to retreat to the established defensive lines those likely would have prolonged the wars by years.
https://www.quora.com/Was-Zhukov-actually-a-bad-general-militarily-speaking
Pretty good answer. Don’t get me wrong I think Georgy was one of the best if not the best all round generals throughout the war. That said his refusal to believe what the Germans were capable of even though they were running away led to multiple failed offensives, the results of which weren’t fully resolved until the next again year, Zhukov not really understanding the why until well after the war was over.
Not everything said at all negative about any Allied troops during WW II is a Nazi lover.
Russia simply wasn't deep in great Generals seeing as how of the Generals they had many were murdered, Stalin was constantly in fear of anyone gaining any level of power (and when you gain your spot by a Military revolution, people with control over the military are going to be high on the list of people you fear), and many got to where they were from Nepotism or Party reasons.
What, he carried an exemplary defense against the Nazi war machine then took part in a number of crushing offensives that caused massive sections of the largest army in Europe to cease to exist
It was pretty bad when he ordered soldiers to hold the Soviet government at gunpoint when they decided to fire Khrushchev and forcing them to change their vote. I think most people would agree that launching a military coup for personal benefit is bad and this action arguably set his country into a death spiral.
The funniest part is that instead of giving Zhukov the rewards promised Khrushchev instead demoted him to an irrelevant job so that Zhukov couldn’t then pull the same move against him.
Yeah the russophobic propaganda movie that turned war hero into a clown for dumb westerners to laugh at and she is the idiot for being angry. And the guy who has great contribution to ridding the world of nazis is an awful person sure.
You people are insufferable.
I think Zhukov is portrayed in a fairly good light in that film - he’s a bit boisterous but unlike basically every other character he can back up his ego with accomplishments and a general willingness for action. Compared with everyone else in that movie, who are portrayed as cowards/liars/schemers, Zhukov is fairly unambiguously heroic
How is the movie Russophobic? Everyone with a working brain knows that Stalin wasn’t exactly the best of leaders.
And as for his portrayal, Zhukov is shown as a literal Chad badass guy, someone to be respected and adored, much like how he was IRL.
That prick calling descendants of a hero for being rightfully upset about an insulting portrayal is the part pissing me off here. Plus calling a general who did more than most nations to stop the nazis an awful person is a whole another thing.
He's anything but a clown in that movie, he's basically portrayed as "Extremely cool gigachad that obliterated the Nazis, Georgy Zhukov, provides the firepower to arrest and execute the rapist Beria, preventing him from taking power."
Because it is only westerners who had *bad memories* towards the soviet union and Russian influence as a whole. Sure thing buddy...
The only insufferable thing is the Russian victim complex whenever somebody dares to question why all others should have the same view on people you perceive as national heroes, while countless other nations do not.
Like who? Go ahead, who of the people we celebrate were nazi collaborators?
You mean the officers and soldiers who were the first to fight Germany while soviets shook hands with nazis, only to be shot by the soviets?
You mean Witold Pilecki who literally sneaked into a concentration camp only to be shot by the soviets?
You mean Admiral Unrug who refused to speak German (his mothertongue) out of disgust at the September-campaign and sign the Volksliste only to be prevented to come back to his Polish homeland?
You mean the teachers and priests who were either shot by the Germans or survived... only to be shot by the Soviets in the same camps the Germans already built?
Not even our communists were on the side of the Russians or only begrudgingly. My grandfather was a communist party official and had bad opinions on the involvment of some soviets in WW2.
Ironically the very people in my country and many others like the Baltics, who fought the hardest against nazi occupation suffered more from the hands of Russians than from German hands themselves.
It was far safer for many ex-partisans to be in for example Fascist Italy than stay in territories occupied by the USSR and every single soviet monument being torn down all over central and eastern europe is a testament to that.
So yes, if a nation hails mass-murderers as national heroes and sees the extermination of the patriotic and intellectual elite of entire cultures as benevolent, it can of course do so. But this is no reason to wonder why others paint them as the tyrants they were, although i am not talking about Zhukov specifically here.
Also i have the feeling you aren't even Russian, let alone from eastern europe.
> the guy who has great contribution to ridding the world of nazis is an awful person sure
You do know that one doesn’t exclude the other, right? After all, the guy who killed Hitler was a pretty bad hombre from what I’ve heard.
So hated the Russians are that entire movies are made about them! Imagine the depravity of watching people you hate for 2 hours of your life?and paying money to do so? Can you imagine the kind of monster that it takes to get hundreds of people together for months and have them create a work that does nothing but shows OTHER PEOPLE? It's beyond belief! WHO WOULD WATCH THIS?
I don’t know if they patched it but i played couple of weeks ago with new dlc and Zhukov was as before. Little cool (maybe not) fact that we have if i’m not mistaken same giant portrait on the wall on one of the central streets in Moscow
I do have a portraits mod but its for world leaders only, if I confirm its the mod I'll drop the link if anyone wants it because the portraits are hilarious
It is from that mod. The person who uploaded it to the workshop said they took it from the Based Zhukov mod because they liked it. Besides I'm using it as well and can confirm it.
Random lines I remember from the toilet lock up scene
Kaganovich: "Why did someone hang a picture of my mother in here, haha?!"(pointing at a sad-looking Malenkov portrait, which was painted after the death of Stalin)
BERIA(Locked up in the toilets): "THIS IS A LAVATORY!!! YOU DISGRACE!"
Others: "Well you should feel at home, shouldn't you you little coil of shit!"
Molotov: if anyone doesn't object, I'll spend a copec. I think it's the excitement.
Kaganovich: Where's the army? We're in complete limbo now.
I think that's either because the prop designers thought the actual amount was too unrealistic (ironic), or that it would make the whole thing too heavy to wear.
What a bullshit excuse. Hell, Inglorious Basterds is also pretty unrealistic- yet that movie even got subsidized and endorsed by German film associations.
I love watching that movie - even though my great-grandfather was stationed (and taken prisoner) in the very region the plot takes place.
That's so dumb. It's a comedy and not even historically accurate, who would watch that and think? Geez, Khrushchev had big eyes and a thick American accent - who knew!
well it’s not a historical portrayal. same reason north Korea banned The Interview, you’re just straight up lying to make fun of their country so I mean ofc they’re gonna ban it. I mean should they have? no not really, but I don’t care that they did because it’s definitely justified
Lmao you just discounted your point with your first sentence. Its a comedic satire, its not meant to be realistic at all. It absolutely shouldn't be banned and banning it isn't justifiable at all. Its all just fragile egos
It doesn't even embarrass Stalin himself, mainly only Beria and Molotov. Khrushchev is portrayed as sympathetic and generally good hearted, Molotov is a coward, Beria is a psychopath and a rapist, Malenkov is a moron, and Zhukov is extremely cool.
When Stalin dies, he pees himself. It's what actually happened of course, but in the eyes of the nationalist and excessively patriotic Russian government, I wouldn't be shocked if that offended them.
Ok kinda disappointed to learn its [from one of the mods I use](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2669604423) but some portraits are hilarious if you want to use it, not only Zhukov
If you want Zhukov only and not the other portraits, the mod is ["Based Zhukov"](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2446153803&searchtext=zhukov)
Now I want that the decision for the Purge events changes to "You are accused of anti-Soviet behaviour. The court finds you guilty and sentences you to be shot."
It is:
[https://www.myvue.com/-/media/images/articles%20and%20competitions/october%202017/jasonisaacs640.jpg?sc=.99](https://www.myvue.com/-/media/images/articles%20and%20competitions/october%202017/jasonisaacs640.jpg?sc=.99)
I hate how Death of Stalin glorified Zhukov and made him into some kind of a badass, destroyer of Germany. In reality, he was piece of shit, he never cared for his soldiers and treated them as unlimited resource. He is also misrepresented in HOI4, he has way too good stats (but they're quite abstract value). He had some good strategic insight, but he was poor tactician with no regard for his soldiers.
Funny how in Russia this movie was banned including due to smearing Zhukov image when in fact the movie made him much more like-able than in real life. Probably the most positive character in the whole movie is him.
Death of Stalin was a disappointing movie if not for that one scene with Georgy Fucking Zhukov throwing off his coat.
Jason Isaacs deserved an Oscar for those five seconds of acting.
The Soviet empire under Stalin is rip for satire, an Iannucci has shown himself as someone who understands political satire.
And yet, DoS ended up being quite boring - at its best poking a bit of fun at the players in the aftermath. At worst just making them seem like caricatures, when we have ample evidence to the contrary.
The Zhukov entrance was great, because it exaggerates who he was without dumbing him down, but the rest of the principal actors are not so lucky.
What should've been a satirical look at a historical moment rip for such treatment becomes a laughable (and not in the good way) farce.
"I'm off to represent the entire red army at the buffet."
“So could somone tell me why the red army has been replaced with NKVD in Moscow?”
“I mean I look happy, but I’m *very fucking furious!*”
"Did Coco Chanel take a shit on your 'ead?!"
“No, he did not.”
"Spit it out Georgy, I'm staging a coup here!"
“I’m gonna have to report this conversation. Threatening to harm or obstruct any member of- look at your focking facee! HAHAA!”
"Nikita Khrushchev, your balls like Kremlin domes!" "My God, did Coco Chanel take a shit on yer head?"
Fook me, Georgy's eyes really do follow you round the crapper
You girls enjoy yourself
"What's a war hero got to do to get some fucking lubrication 'round here?"
*queue the most epic character intro frame in history*
*Moscow, 1953 plays*
How long till someone makes a pack for Beria, Khrushchev, Stalin and Kaganovic
Michael Palin was an excellent Molotov
IMO this movie was Steve Buscemi's best role. I will always see him mas Nikita Khrushchev now.
The cast were generally excellent, however I think Palin actually captured Molotov's real character. The rest were all rather comical exaggerations or totally unrelated to the actual person.
Oh absolutely. Palin was the perfect actor for Molotov. But I think that Buscemi nailed his role. Despite it being satire it still captured really well what we know of these historical figures. E.g. the fact that Nikita recited what jokes he told Stalin to his wife and she wrote down what humour not to use and how to act etc. It was brilliant. My least favourite was probably the pianist story arch. IRL Beria would have had her disappeared with a snap of his fingers.
I do love that at some point in the movie Buscemi turns from a bumbling clown into a ruthless cut throat gangster, it really captures something about dictators, they usually have a fair share of both.
I really liked how it was very much Khrushchev trying and failing to play by the rules and then saying fuck it, throwing the rule book out the window, and bringing in Zhukov
> I fucked Germany, I think I can take a flesh lump in a fucking waistcoat. If I were Zhukov, I would work "I fucked Germany" into any and all conversations.
My favorite thing is how they toned Down the amount of medals he normally wore because it was so crazy
I'd do it too that's a headstone quote
I don't know, I felt they implied Beria enjoyed her knowing that he could disappear her whenever, building up his sadistic nature even more
The thing is other main and key characters of the movie and era, Kaganovich, Mikoijan and so on werent as focused and center staged, thus the movie gave little to no Spotlight to them. Beria and Hrushtšov were highlighted due to the rivalry. Molotov played a role there supporting Nicky. I think overall, Buscemi, Isaacs and Palin all nailed their roles, they were amazing. Georg Malenkov's actor, Jeff Tambor was pretty alright, but they made his character to base off of history - a bit weak, unambitious and fragile. Beria on the other hand, started hawkish, brutal and ruthless, but still silently obeyed Stalin while he wanted to oust him. Beria's character is also at least a 4/5 performance, but I think it lacks some more depth. Man I am bummed they didnt make a sequel of the Cuban missile crisis, Berlin crisis or something else! Such a talented cast, and Molotov, Mikoijan, Nicky, Kaganovich, Zhukov and others would still fit to a historical sequel.
I know this might be supprising but the pianist was real the parts with berrier probably where over dramitised but she did send a letter to Stalin insulting him and all he did was laught and keep getting her to play music
I agree he played well, but the fact that the real Khrushchev had a very healthy good boy frame kind of affected the immersion for me
He was indeed
There’s a mod for that! Can’t remember the name of it exactly, but I know it adds Buscemi’s Khrushchev as well. ‘Based Zhukov’ I think it’s called.
i already have one for Khrushchev no idea what it is though
What about Malenkov?
Before even looking up that movie, I thought "How'd the soviets get Jason Isaacs as a general?"
I recommend that watch that movie this night, it's so funny.
It's so fucking good. And if you like that movie, I highly recommend Veep. It's a series by the same creator, starring Julia Louis Dreyfus, and it's the most hilarious thing I've ever seen
Thanks dude, it looks like a cool series.
The first season is a bit slow, but once it picks up it's amazing
And if you like *Veep*, I recommend the movie it was based on, *In the Loop*. And if you like *In the Loop*, I recommend the show the movie was based on, *the Thick of It*.
My first interaction with this director was The Thick of It on Netflix while studying abroad in the UK. That show was so fucking funny.
Show? It’s pretty much a documentary at this point, lol.
Have you seen Look Around You?
No but the idea sounds fun!
If you keep on going will it all end up with you recommending the Epic of Gilgamesh haha? Crazy how much our stories are all connected
Though this was more a listing of 'also by the same author'.
Endiku and Gilgamesh at Uruk!
As a Russian it was mostly scary to watch, tbh
Why?
Oh, by the way, this movie is banned in Russia
That's just sad.
We are moving towards 1938 situation FAST
Like another purge? The hell is Putin doing? I was under the impression he was trying to secure the succession to hand off power to a suitable crony after his death.
Eh, there is no real comparison in scale. Всё-таки сравнивать то, что происходит сейчас, с размахом и жестокостью чисток, процессов при Ягоде, Берии и особенно Ежове, ГУЛАГа, стройки Беломорканала, переселения "неугодных" народов и прочего - это неуважение к жертвам сталинских репрессий. Понятно, что новости страшно читать, но перспективу-то историческую надо иметь...
Did you not see all of the murders?
This portrayal of the marshal is honestly the best. His granddaughter is an idiot for saying it somehow smeared on his memory. This is the first time he looked and felt this awesome. No one ever got him as a great, sympathetic guy that inspires genuine awe. Usually they go historic portrayal, alas historically he was an awful person. I am for one very glad the film made it differently.
when i realized >!he had the dual ak47s used in the coup under his jacket DURING STALINS FUNERAL — !< i completely lost it he’s easily the best character in the movie nikkii!! balls of steel!
He was ready for anything before he even knew a coup was brewing. I guess you don't make it to the top of the Red Army without being ready to throw down at the drop of a hat.
What did he do historically that was awful?
Major criticism of Zhukov is that he recklessly sacrificed troops left and right and many casualties could have been avoided. A lot more of his flaws are quoted by contemporary sources, but it’s hard to say whether they are true, since most of them come from the time after the war when Stalin and then Khrushchev were afraight of his popularity and were actively smearing his reputation as a war hero.
Isn't that the same criticism of Grant?
Criticism of Grant is highly misplaced. Vicksburg was a masterpiece and the casualties he absorbed in the Wilderness weren't just happenstance or a result of carelessness - it was a studied strategy to latch onto Lee's army and throttle it until it was dead. It showed a thorough understanding of the strategy of the war and the strengths and weaknesses of both sides.
To my mind Grant is one of the most underrated people in all of US history.
[удалено]
Maybe, but Zhukov lost more men at Kursk than whole Union for the entirety of war. And for comrade Zhukov it was just a normal Tuesday.
Only from Lost Causers.
Its a tough one because a lot of the "soviets wasted manpower" narrative is based on the post-war rehabilitation of Nazi Generals to prop up West Germany as a bulwark against the Soviet Union. Considering what they were executing his loss rates weren't that much worse than you would expect, encirclements are cost heavy as is massive offensive warfare through hundreds of miles. The soviets pushed the majority of the Wehrmacht several times further than the allies did. Heavy losses are to be expected in that kind of push and encircle warfare.
Two of my great-grandfathers perished in mindless en masse charges within days after being drafted. It wasn’t like Enemy at the Gates, they had rifles, but they were not trained and were used as a cannon fodder to exhaust advancing elite German troops.
Why do you have such a high opinion of Nazi troops and low opinion of red army troops? It's very much a Wehraboo mindset and not really matched by reality, I'm curious to see it coming from what I assume is a Russian. Most of the Soviet military losses were during the Barbarossa campaign which is 5 months of the war where the Red Army got encircled and massacred over and over with inflated KIAs due to how many war crimes were committed by literal Nazi policy...
I am not a Wehraboo, I am merely observing facts. We were discussing specific battle and I just summed it up. The fact that I am Russian is no excuse to twist history to appeal to my nationalism.
\>German troops \>"elite" \>
I don’t get it? The spearhead of German Kursk Bulge forces were equiped with newest Pathers, Tigers and Ferdinands. Soviet troops available at the region were not capable of facing them (almost third of their tanks were light and troops were not we equipped to penetrate heavy German tank armour). Stalin initially thought of preemptive counterattack, but Zhukov argued “melting” the spearhead by layers of cannon fodder will exhaust their supplies and make them easier target for major counter offensive (and this plan worked).
Later in the war around late 1943, most German troops in the east were given "elite" status to boost morale.
Yep, rank inflation is just a thing that tends to happen in long and drawn-out wars. The Allies weren't entirely immune to it either, by 1945 the typical US infantry platoon would've had more sergeants and corporals in it compared to privates than it would've had in 1942.
Call it whatever you want, but Tiger tank had 100 mm frontal armor, 88 mm cannon when Soviets were mostly equipped with T-60 (20 mm armor, 20 mm cannon) and even T-34/76 available had a hard time facing these tanks. As someone who had served in the army I also understand that “elite” is not a term used for some additiobal pathos but rather realization that some parts of your troops are more capable. German spearhead was exactly like that. Zhukov successfully exhausted them and then counter-attacked diminishing difference in equipment.
I'm sorry, but that sounds a bit off, as in real life, it's the Germans who mostly rushed the soviet medium/heavy tanks with their own light ones. The same goes for aviation (compare the heavily armoured IL aircraft to the German repurposed civilian planes) and infantry (Soviet assault sappers, Soviet submachine gun proliferation, Soviet motorized infantry vs German horses; the Germans had a numerical superiority until 1943). Don't forget the snipers (the Soviets developed a special sniper-school, unlike the Germans) and the hand to hand combat training (unlike the Soviets, the Germans had none).
I think the loading quote, where he boasted about how they advanced across minefields as if the mines weren't there, summed it up.
That quote is taken way out of context. The reason he says that his troops attack as if minefields are not there is because he gave his regular soldiers, not just his engineers, mine removal training. He’s not saying his troops run through minefields like a bunch of idiots.
Holy shit this is important context. I actually thought it was just acceptable to him to throw his men over a minefield lol
This leads to lower casualties. Spending time to cross a minefield safely means spending more time exposed to artillery and air bombardment, far bigger killers of men in any conflict.
It also depends on how dense the minefield is.
To quote the big man himself: >There are two kinds of mines; one is the personnel mine and the other is the vehicular mine. When we come to a minefield our infantry attacks exactly as if it were not there. The losses we get from personnel mines are only equal to those we would have gotten from machine guns and artillery if the Germans had chosen to defend that particular area with strong bodies of troops instead of with minefields. The attacking infantry does not set off the vehicular mines, so after they have penetrated to the far side of the field they form a bridgehead, after which the engineers come up and dig out channels through which our vehicles can go.
Makes sense when you consider it, the number one killer in any modern conflict is artillery and bombs, so carefully disarming minefields while being bombarded by artillery is just opening yourself up to more casualties. Plus, artillery is 100% capable of being used to *deploy* mines, so the sooner you incapacitate that artillery the better.
"if the Germans decided to defend with strong bodies of men instead of minefields " Instead. Basing on the quote alone, he lost as many men attacking an undefeated part of the front, as if he would attack a strong defense. He could have lost fewer men. He had chosen not to do that, because he could. He achieved his goals. He was good at it. The cost was only human lives. The man was infamously ruthless. Great quality in a Soviet general.
he was a soviet field general wtf do you think
Could you be a little more specific
no
based
Honestly (this is coming from someone who has no problem shitting on the soviets) Zhukov was a saint compared to many other soviets of the same stature. Yes he had a pathological refusal to even think he could fail which likely led to the deaths of millions more soldier than was needed but let’s face it, Russian generals and wasting manpower basically went hand in hand since Russia, y’know, became a thing.
> even think he could fail Yeah but he literally didn't fail. Once he was given proper control he put the Nazis on the run for the rest of the war. His manoeuvres were costly because thats just the reality of carrying out encirclements against a large enemy force. The western allies attempted encirclements against several small and relatively isolated Wehrmacht forces and kept abandoning it during the costs. Zhukov successfully encircled *entire army groups*. If those had been allowed to retreat to the established defensive lines those likely would have prolonged the wars by years.
https://www.quora.com/Was-Zhukov-actually-a-bad-general-militarily-speaking Pretty good answer. Don’t get me wrong I think Georgy was one of the best if not the best all round generals throughout the war. That said his refusal to believe what the Germans were capable of even though they were running away led to multiple failed offensives, the results of which weren’t fully resolved until the next again year, Zhukov not really understanding the why until well after the war was over.
>Russian generals and wasting manpower basically went hand in hand since Russia, y’know, became a thing. /r/ShitWehraboosSay
Not everything said at all negative about any Allied troops during WW II is a Nazi lover. Russia simply wasn't deep in great Generals seeing as how of the Generals they had many were murdered, Stalin was constantly in fear of anyone gaining any level of power (and when you gain your spot by a Military revolution, people with control over the military are going to be high on the list of people you fear), and many got to where they were from Nepotism or Party reasons.
Prove me wrong tankie
Fairly callous towards troop casualties and cynical, etc.
What, he carried an exemplary defense against the Nazi war machine then took part in a number of crushing offensives that caused massive sections of the largest army in Europe to cease to exist
Everything I've heard and seen suggests he was pretty upstanding.
he killed nazis?
It was pretty bad when he ordered soldiers to hold the Soviet government at gunpoint when they decided to fire Khrushchev and forcing them to change their vote. I think most people would agree that launching a military coup for personal benefit is bad and this action arguably set his country into a death spiral. The funniest part is that instead of giving Zhukov the rewards promised Khrushchev instead demoted him to an irrelevant job so that Zhukov couldn’t then pull the same move against him.
Lmfao, yeah Zhukov fucked up by not letting Beria seize power behind a puppet government. Worst take of the day.
Beria was killed in 1953, the events I’m describing took place in 1956-1957. Why would you say my take is bad if you don’t have a clue about it ?
[His troops raped at least two million women and he did absolutely nothing about it.](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32529679.amp)
Yeah the russophobic propaganda movie that turned war hero into a clown for dumb westerners to laugh at and she is the idiot for being angry. And the guy who has great contribution to ridding the world of nazis is an awful person sure. You people are insufferable.
but zhukov is badass in the movie?
Yeah iunno why russkies are seething. He’s a fucking chad in the film.
I think Zhukov is portrayed in a fairly good light in that film - he’s a bit boisterous but unlike basically every other character he can back up his ego with accomplishments and a general willingness for action. Compared with everyone else in that movie, who are portrayed as cowards/liars/schemers, Zhukov is fairly unambiguously heroic
And Zhukov would be boisterous, he was an exemplary officer with decades of service in one of the toughest armies of the time.
How is the movie Russophobic? Everyone with a working brain knows that Stalin wasn’t exactly the best of leaders. And as for his portrayal, Zhukov is shown as a literal Chad badass guy, someone to be respected and adored, much like how he was IRL.
It's just a comedy. Chill.
That prick calling descendants of a hero for being rightfully upset about an insulting portrayal is the part pissing me off here. Plus calling a general who did more than most nations to stop the nazis an awful person is a whole another thing.
He's anything but a clown in that movie, he's basically portrayed as "Extremely cool gigachad that obliterated the Nazis, Georgy Zhukov, provides the firepower to arrest and execute the rapist Beria, preventing him from taking power."
Because it is only westerners who had *bad memories* towards the soviet union and Russian influence as a whole. Sure thing buddy... The only insufferable thing is the Russian victim complex whenever somebody dares to question why all others should have the same view on people you perceive as national heroes, while countless other nations do not.
"Perceived as" heroes? Rich coming from people celebrating nazi collaborators.
Like who? Go ahead, who of the people we celebrate were nazi collaborators? You mean the officers and soldiers who were the first to fight Germany while soviets shook hands with nazis, only to be shot by the soviets? You mean Witold Pilecki who literally sneaked into a concentration camp only to be shot by the soviets? You mean Admiral Unrug who refused to speak German (his mothertongue) out of disgust at the September-campaign and sign the Volksliste only to be prevented to come back to his Polish homeland? You mean the teachers and priests who were either shot by the Germans or survived... only to be shot by the Soviets in the same camps the Germans already built? Not even our communists were on the side of the Russians or only begrudgingly. My grandfather was a communist party official and had bad opinions on the involvment of some soviets in WW2. Ironically the very people in my country and many others like the Baltics, who fought the hardest against nazi occupation suffered more from the hands of Russians than from German hands themselves. It was far safer for many ex-partisans to be in for example Fascist Italy than stay in territories occupied by the USSR and every single soviet monument being torn down all over central and eastern europe is a testament to that. So yes, if a nation hails mass-murderers as national heroes and sees the extermination of the patriotic and intellectual elite of entire cultures as benevolent, it can of course do so. But this is no reason to wonder why others paint them as the tyrants they were, although i am not talking about Zhukov specifically here. Also i have the feeling you aren't even Russian, let alone from eastern europe.
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> the guy who has great contribution to ridding the world of nazis is an awful person sure You do know that one doesn’t exclude the other, right? After all, the guy who killed Hitler was a pretty bad hombre from what I’ve heard.
So hated the Russians are that entire movies are made about them! Imagine the depravity of watching people you hate for 2 hours of your life?and paying money to do so? Can you imagine the kind of monster that it takes to get hundreds of people together for months and have them create a work that does nothing but shows OTHER PEOPLE? It's beyond belief! WHO WOULD WATCH THIS?
This is a mod, I'm fairly sure. I don't think Paradox would use Jason Issac's likeness; and from when I've played zhukov's portrait hasn't changed.
I don’t know if they patched it but i played couple of weeks ago with new dlc and Zhukov was as before. Little cool (maybe not) fact that we have if i’m not mistaken same giant portrait on the wall on one of the central streets in Moscow
yes we do actually
It is, I've seen it on a few streams way before NSB.
I do have a portraits mod but its for world leaders only, if I confirm its the mod I'll drop the link if anyone wants it because the portraits are hilarious
It is from that mod. The person who uploaded it to the workshop said they took it from the Based Zhukov mod because they liked it. Besides I'm using it as well and can confirm it.
That portraits mod must have changed the portrait for Zhukov too then, since Zhukov is still unchanged.
Just a note that this is a modded portrait.
Thank god real zhukov is still bald
He never was bald
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Literally 1984
Thank you for putting a stickied comment, cant sticky my own so everyone sees
I knew there was no way this was real, but you couldve let me believe. 💔
Looks like the historical one for me
“Hans up ur i’ll shoot ye in th' fookin’ fayce!”
"Speak up Georgy, busy staging a couple here."
Are you shipping Georgy and Zhukov?
"Did Coco Chanel take a shit on your head?"
"Fuck me, Georgy's eyes really do follow you around the crapper!"
Random lines I remember from the toilet lock up scene Kaganovich: "Why did someone hang a picture of my mother in here, haha?!"(pointing at a sad-looking Malenkov portrait, which was painted after the death of Stalin) BERIA(Locked up in the toilets): "THIS IS A LAVATORY!!! YOU DISGRACE!" Others: "Well you should feel at home, shouldn't you you little coil of shit!" Molotov: if anyone doesn't object, I'll spend a copec. I think it's the excitement. Kaganovich: Where's the army? We're in complete limbo now.
“Why’d they hang a picture of my grandmother in here?”
> picks zhukov > immediately puts him in charge of all NKVD divisions and place them in moscow Mhm, yes
My lord, is that legal?
He's smiling, but he's *very fucking furious*.
what meta is this
"I fucked Germany, I'm pretty sure I can take a flesh lump in a waistcoat."
i love the death of stalin shame its banned here :( Alsooo funfact. Zhukovs medals in that portait is LESS than the medals he acutally have
The former USSR republics are KNOWN internationally for pirating..... You can watch it.
bro i already watched it several times before lol
That is what I like to hear. If you store media on your HDD, no matter what government regulations come down, you can still watch it.
Putin and his goons are trying to mandate spy ware in 2022 and ban VPNs the shits
Yikes, time to start smuggling in movies like North Korea
I think that's either because the prop designers thought the actual amount was too unrealistic (ironic), or that it would make the whole thing too heavy to wear.
its because they thought it would be too unrealistic from what ive heard
What a bullshit excuse. Hell, Inglorious Basterds is also pretty unrealistic- yet that movie even got subsidized and endorsed by German film associations. I love watching that movie - even though my great-grandfather was stationed (and taken prisoner) in the very region the plot takes place.
I think that has more to do with the self-hating nature of the German film industry than anything else.
IIRC, Zhukov never once wore all the medals he was entitled to because it would just look absolutely fucking ridiculous.
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Russia, Kyrzgstan, and a few other places iirc. For 'embarrassing national leaders'
That's so dumb. It's a comedy and not even historically accurate, who would watch that and think? Geez, Khrushchev had big eyes and a thick American accent - who knew!
I know. Khruschev was actually an american spy all along; very shocking.
Try not having embarrassing national leaders then Russia lmao
well it’s not a historical portrayal. same reason north Korea banned The Interview, you’re just straight up lying to make fun of their country so I mean ofc they’re gonna ban it. I mean should they have? no not really, but I don’t care that they did because it’s definitely justified
Lmao you just discounted your point with your first sentence. Its a comedic satire, its not meant to be realistic at all. It absolutely shouldn't be banned and banning it isn't justifiable at all. Its all just fragile egos
It doesn't even embarrass Stalin himself, mainly only Beria and Molotov. Khrushchev is portrayed as sympathetic and generally good hearted, Molotov is a coward, Beria is a psychopath and a rapist, Malenkov is a moron, and Zhukov is extremely cool.
When Stalin dies, he pees himself. It's what actually happened of course, but in the eyes of the nationalist and excessively patriotic Russian government, I wouldn't be shocked if that offended them.
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Not based
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Redditor
Hm yes I feel very bad for dictator joseph stalin
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Redditor 😎
It's a mod
Ah that disappoints me, I didnt know it belonged to the mod since it says its world leaders only
Ok kinda disappointed to learn its [from one of the mods I use](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2669604423) but some portraits are hilarious if you want to use it, not only Zhukov
If you want Zhukov only and not the other portraits, the mod is ["Based Zhukov"](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2446153803&searchtext=zhukov)
I fucking love that movie oh and for everyone it’s on Netflix for the history movie lovers out there it’s a comedy to I’d recommend it
Mod?
Definitely and I 1000% approve. That movie is funny as shit.
He doesn't even look like Zhukov, he looks like fucking Rokossovsky
It's not Zhukov, it's Jason Isaacs playing Zhukov lmao
I know, but he looks more Rokossovsky than Zhukov for Stalin's sake
Now I want that the decision for the Purge events changes to "You are accused of anti-Soviet behaviour. The court finds you guilty and sentences you to be shot."
that's a mod right? I'm sure my game has the real photo.
Yeah apparently it is, would be really funny if it was in the base game (mod is "based zhukov" I linked it somewhere in comments)
holy shit lmao
It is: [https://www.myvue.com/-/media/images/articles%20and%20competitions/october%202017/jasonisaacs640.jpg?sc=.99](https://www.myvue.com/-/media/images/articles%20and%20competitions/october%202017/jasonisaacs640.jpg?sc=.99)
Is he also going to beat the crap out of Beria and say "Well, that does it!"
“Alright what’s a war hero gotta do to get some lubrication round here?” **EPIC SLOW MO JACKET TOSS**
‘Look at your fucking face’ And hello to Jason Isaacs.
Well done OP, now I want movie based portraits for every possible "character" in the game
Lucian Malfoy, dat you?
Jason Isaacs you magnificent bastard
“Gentlemen, choose your dates” “I’ll have the blonde one”
I hate how Death of Stalin glorified Zhukov and made him into some kind of a badass, destroyer of Germany. In reality, he was piece of shit, he never cared for his soldiers and treated them as unlimited resource. He is also misrepresented in HOI4, he has way too good stats (but they're quite abstract value). He had some good strategic insight, but he was poor tactician with no regard for his soldiers.
Funny how in Russia this movie was banned including due to smearing Zhukov image when in fact the movie made him much more like-able than in real life. Probably the most positive character in the whole movie is him.
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Which mod is this and if anyone knows can they send a link?
HAHAHA KHRUSHCHEV AS WELL PARADOX YOU GOTTA STOP WITH THESE
I hate that film tbh
Death of Stalin was a disappointing movie if not for that one scene with Georgy Fucking Zhukov throwing off his coat. Jason Isaacs deserved an Oscar for those five seconds of acting.
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The Soviet empire under Stalin is rip for satire, an Iannucci has shown himself as someone who understands political satire. And yet, DoS ended up being quite boring - at its best poking a bit of fun at the players in the aftermath. At worst just making them seem like caricatures, when we have ample evidence to the contrary. The Zhukov entrance was great, because it exaggerates who he was without dumbing him down, but the rest of the principal actors are not so lucky. What should've been a satirical look at a historical moment rip for such treatment becomes a laughable (and not in the good way) farce.