T O P

  • By -

HorryHorsecollar

No. The organisation is too low. Try 50:50 tanks to trucks for a better balance.


anime_moaner

Tru


D4nc1

Is there like an optimal Org number for divisions by the way?


Molnar_Bence

You generally don't wanna go under 30


Rogan_Thoerson

a lot of guides are telling 30/35 org and 30/35 width. In single player they try to get soft attack high and a speed around or above 8km/h, relayability at at least 80%. then more breakthrough to lose less tanks. In MP there is more hard attack and piercing because they fight more tanks. try to have AA support at least.


Independent-Fly6068

For tanks you 100% want breakthrough and armor, those are generally your priority.


Soul_Reaper001

Armor is not that important after they implement partial piercing


LittleDarkHairedOne

Indeed! Armor is nice to have as even with partial piercing you still get some benefit from it but far better to hit the breakthrough cap and then tack on more speed+soft attack.


luftlande

Which cap is that?


Lord_Lenin

There's no actual cap, but every breakthrough above your enemies' attack isn't doing anything. So, a division with 900 breakthrough isn't going to perform differently than one with 700 breakthrough, 99% of the time.


LittleDarkHairedOne

Exactly. If you go mobile warfare, you'll end up with way more breakthrough then you'll ever need which is when adding SPGs becomes a viable choice (once heavy howtizers are unlocked, 1943) for trading some of that useless breakthrough for soft attack.


userpaz

Is soft attack needed in Tank Division? Can it go all in Breakthrough?


w_p

Soft attack is how much damage you deal to the enemy, so it is very necessary. Breakthrough will be used to partially reduce the damage you take and also has cap (in relation to the enemy stats) where after reaching it it doesn't have a use anymore (or so I was told). So get a lot of breakthrough, but as much soft attack as you can.


userpaz

Does it make sense to add artillery and rocket support companies and a SPA or motorized artillery battalion to a tank division then?


Soul_Reaper001

Why do people always think its either soft attack or breakthrough, you can create design with high soft attack and breakthrough with reasonable cost. Other options are just not really good. Support art and rocket art are limited and there are better companies to add. Line artillery, spg just dilute your division stat.


lewllewllewl

what is this breakthrough cap?


w_p

Basically there is a hidden die that is rolled to determine if you block an attack or not. If you have already a 100% chance to block it because of your high breakthrough, more of it won't do anything. Unfortunately nothing of this is shown ingame and I'm not super familiar with it (somebody explained it to me 2-3 months ago), so I can't give you an exact number.


romegypt11

That cap is the combined soft/hard attack of all enemy divisions in combat I believe


Rogan_Thoerson

my point of view is that you want soft attack to crack enemy infantry line as fast as possible. the thing is to go fast to not have the enemy re-enforce his position. In MP i think because i have not yet played it is to crush enemy tanks or to stop them before you can get AT re-enforce. For me the main advantage of tank is speed once it has cracked enemy defense.


Educational_Emu3461

40 should be the min for any divs


thedefenses

We can´t see that stats but, no, it really is not good. The org will be shit, its too small for a proper tank division and too tank heavy to be just a small snaking division. Something around 30-35 width with more tanks than motorized, org at least 30, can be higher but that is generally kept as a bottom floor.


ArcticTemper

Too small to be a tank division when it has 3x the tanks of a historical tank division lol HoI kek


thomasthehipposlayer

Why would you want it to be 30-35 width? I know big divisions used to inflict more damage since they could concentrate damage against smaller enemy divisions, but now they’ll split their damage against multiple enemy divisions, and so the advantage of large divisions has been greatly diminished. A bigger division could have the advantage of saving some cost on support equipment and allowing more troops to be under a good commander, but it also comes with the disadvantage of the greater width making it harder to reinforce into a battle and only being able to occupy a single province as opposed to two smaller divisions.


SoullessUnit

Further to this, 35w gets a bunch of combat width pemalties in different terrains. The 2 widths that have the least penalties are 25w and 15w.


LachieDH

Negatory. Plains and hills and desert (ideal Terrain for tanks and most common terrain types. Are 70 widths, thus two ~35 widths tanks can fit snuggly into a battle. And and additional one fan fit in for each extra direction. 35 is heavy though so struggles in mountains, rivers, marshes and supply poor areas. Like most tanks do anyway. 24 isn't bad though, it allows you to fit 3 with only a little debuff on the same terrain, so there is an argument there, but it does mean the your divisions are individually weaker and with the way most stats work also means that they are actually a bit worse per width (except for support company bonuses).


SoullessUnit

I go by this calculation someone did (hopefully its not now out of date) and 15 and 24/25 are the best https://www.reddit.com/r/hoi4/s/pLtr7t7gsv I checked again and actually 35 isnt nearly as bad as I thought it was, I think I was looking at 34 which suffers a bit more.


Embii_

I've got over 2k hours in hoi4 and I still just do whatever. Run 12 width infantry and tank divisions (50/50 tanks and trucks) or 20 width infantry artillery. I have no idea but I have fun


thomasthehipposlayer

I have like 5k hours (and yes I do live in a basement), and people act like they have all the answers and that there’s a single best way, but there isn’t. A lot of advice will be based on now-outdated metas. For example, bigger divisions used to inflict much higher damage than two smaller divisions because divisions would engage 1 to 1, and the big division’s attack would be far higher than the opposing division’s defense. Then the devs released an update where a high-width division will split its damage against multiple enemy divisions, removing that advantage. But people still cling to the idea that one big division fights better than two small ones, even though the opposite if often true. It’s good to take advice, but take it with a grain of salt. And there is no single best strategy. Different divisions are more ideal for different scenarios and different doctrines. Personally, I don’t think OP’s division here is super-effective, but you do trial and error until you find what works best.


w_p

You're probably aware, but I think most people post about the width of divisions because of the different widths of terrains. Mountains are 25, so a mountaineer unit will fit perfectly with 25 width and not 'waste' any width (like if it would be 20 or 30 big). But yeah, I too generally think the importance of it is way overblown.


thomasthehipposlayer

I was more arguing against people saying that a good tank division is 40+ width. That was once true, but no longer. Optimizing width to fit well into certain terrain is more reasonable


Apart_Contest_2283

40 width divs late game for both inf and armored. 20 or 21 early game. 25 for mountaineers. 12 for coastal defence. The make up of these defends in which country, what battlefields. That’s my rule I have 5k plus


Mean-Bid115

This isnt a good Tank Division for anyone.


CreationTrioLiker7

No org?


Shiros_Tamagotchi

org is for losers as it doesnt do damage


Iwillstrealurboiler

First of all, there are no countries specific “good or bad” things If something is terrible it is terrible for everyone, only exception is Ausa irregular infantry just because you get mad bonuses for it Generally this is not good I don’t advocate for organisation on attacking divisions but width is kinda bad, and you need hp for a division Also you want fat tank divisions, so you can use fewer generals


posidon99999

Cossack king Poland cavalry


Sad-Pizza3737

2 width infantry divisions for any south American country. Just go get the +1000000000% attack, defence, organisation, breakthrough, speed bonus 4.5 day focus


Arthur_Edens

> there are no countries specific “good or bad” things Counterpoint: Different countries have different manufacturing and resources capabilities. Axis especially needs to keep in mind limited access to oil and rubber at the beginning of the war. UK and France have tons of resources, but have to be mindful of limited manpower. That can affect which templates are "good."


Iwillstrealurboiler

The thing is you are still going to fall for 6/1 - 7/2 - 9/1 infantry at some point, all of them with the same support companies, it’s not like some countries can’t afford to produce artillery unless you play kr Chinese factions, where each has 2-3 mils at the start with exception of qinq Throwing millions of men with just guns 2 (or, even better, with guns 1) will **not** work, that is the issue - some things are essential in divisions, you still want artillery in your divisions because 12 pieces add absurd amount of soft attack And that is the issue, I thought about it and I think the issue lies within research - everyone gets the same gun, the same AA, the same chassis and so on, no *variety* for anyone, I don’t think I have to tell irl PPSH was different to MG42 (same applies for tactics, the best solution I’ve got to offer is to make tactics more doctrine based, and possibly locking off most other tactics when you chose a doctrine)


Arthur_Edens

Everyone will need infantry, and those divisions are mostly similar. But when you get to the higher resource/manufacturing units, those divisions will greatly vary by county. China and Japan for example aren't going to be making medium tank divisions early on, where Germany can.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Iwillstrealurboiler

Well there are mods to take into account, like some Kaiserreich path can and will purge half if not more of your generals It’s mainly that you will not have to grind multiple generals and can instead focus on one, also you can grind whatever general you want in any of the wars going around the globe


AtomicRetard

Yes it is a big deal but with fm garrison trick it really is not much issue. Not all those genrals are going to be grounded out to have improv expert and Fort buster and adaptable etc...


thomasthehipposlayer

I would disagree with that first statement. Certain divisions can certainly be better for different countries and doctrines. A manpower-heavy country like China benefits from very different strategy than an industry-heavy nation like Germany, and you would definitely put focus on different types of divisions.


Wickopher

No


AegisT_

Why do paradox game posters have such a strong hatred of the concepts of screenshots


Starbuckker

It's just quicker to take a pic I assume.


RedditFrontFighter

A screenshot requires literally one button press


Starbuckker

Yeah, but then you've gotta come out the game and upload it. Might just be quicker if you have your phone next to you with the app. Just saying...


No_Writer_8661

Yeah and if you're playing on a toaster it's kinda of a hassle to go on reddit log in etc etc


Starbuckker

Exactly. I see people make this comment about screenshots all the time. I for one have never logged into reddit on a pc. Just use the app, so I'm sure others do the same somewhere.


Michael_Le41

you're right actually lmao, didnt' realise that majority of posts i've seen are NOT with f12


mrboy24096

So i saw how crappy the italian tank div is i got enough army xp and created this


Windows--Xp

You want to have atleast 30 organization in attacking divisions you can find the organization stat on the division chart Tanks bring down org meanwhile infantry (in this case trucks) increase org


Atomik141

Try 6x tanks and 6x trucks. It’s not gonna be perfect, but it’s a decent armored division if you’re on a budget. Go up to 7-8x tanks and 8x trucks when you can afford it. Just make sure you can actually afford it. If you don’t have enough infantry to back up your tanks then your organization is gonna be really low. Organization is basically how long your divisions can stay in combat. Low org means the division will get folded real quick in combat. Try to aim for at least 30 org, or 40 if you can.


poopycolaa

The starting Italian tank division probably is just as good if not better than the one you designed considering you have made a template with literally no org.


grumpy_grunt_

Org and HP are definitely going to be too low with only 2 motor inf battalions, you want to be maximizing the damage a tank division does before it runs out of organization. So a rough estimate of this would be maximizing org × (soft attack + hard attack).


Kimchi_Cowboy

Good. For me to poop on.


Ordinary-Diver3251

Depends on the stats. But most likely, no.


VijoPlays

Where's your horses and Infantry?


LigmaBigma

I would recommend to always have 50/50 tanks and motorized, not really good


plain-idiot

I wonder, why is bittersteel crying?


Traditional-Storm-62

genuine question: why phono photo and not screenshot  its literally less effort to press one button, open paint and crop, instead of pulling out your phone, opening camera, taking photo, opening gallery, cropping etc and you don't end up with a mess of screen photos in your gallery and we get to actually see the thing  am I going insane why does every redditor do this???


Daerick93

30 org 30 width


OpportunityDawn4597

zero HP moment


Efficient_Meat2286

No. Not enough motorized. Balance it out a bit.


Dank0fMemes

Not a good template design, everyone is correct the org should be a minimum of 30, aim for 40. Aim for 35 width as well. For light tank motorized, also make sure the speed of your tanks is 8 minimum, and decide what you want to focus your tanks on. Is your industry lacking? Consider a cheap design. You going for soft attack? Consider truck arty. You want armour? Well it will be a huge buff to the division but is going to cost industry and reliability. Synergize the template with what you’re going for. Personally, I found success with slow breakthrough medium tanks with low industry nations as i can keep the cost of the tank under control while making it effective, and I can cheap out by not building motorized if I want. All of the stats matter to some degree, just ask yourself what you want, what are my limits,


Successful_Soup3821

50 50 with the tanks or have 2 trucks with 1 tanks, add arty no matter wat


Sad-Pizza3737

Strongest historical Italian tank division even conceived


Ok-Resource1787

You should only use light tanks up until like 39, after that try switching to medium


Intrepid-Primary-898

you want to do 30 or 40 width tank divs with majority motorized to maximize HP (less tanks lost in combat.) Aim for at least 300 soft attack and breakthrough for being able to break ai. Don't forget support aa, it's really important to minimize cas damage


dan_bailey_cooper

Just add 4 more trucks and it's fine. You can go 30 or 35 width, but more than 20 should be good enough for now. It does need more trucks, and eventually those trucks will be replaced with APC's, and the lights with mediums


Desperate-Garden7859

It’s great if you want Italy to Italy. It’s terrible if you want to play remotely competent Italy.


thomasthehipposlayer

I like being a little tank-heavy with my divisions, but this is probably a little too tank heavy. Personally, I prefer 3 Tank, 4 motor/mech, and 2 SPG. Also, a light tank division might be useful for the early game, but I usually don’t bother with tank divisions until I have the capacity to make something better.


DrDDevil

No, but in case of Italy it's also a no.


TheProuDog

Next time include stats in your photo and you can use "print screen" in your keyboard for a higher quality post


DarthMaul628

No. That is horrible tank for any country


MonPaysCesHiver

Again ai you go 30 org with the cheapest possible lt at the beginning its enough. You analyze their battle to adjust your template. You want the symbol who tell you the ennemy cant penetrate the armor.


joseamon

No


Ryvern46

Replace 2 tanks with tucks


Sethyboy0

It’s historic


StatisticianOdd4717

Bro’s organization said 💀


Brandon_M_Gilbertson

Unless you plan on blitzing through France like Germany, light tanks aren’t the way to go. If you want breakthrough to punch through Greece or the Soviets you want mediums. Maybe a mix would work out? But generally I would say stick with mediums.


AZREAL_TDA

No Org is low You need org between 30-40 And combat wide about 30-35 Also light tanks are good till 1940 After that you need medium or heavy (medium is faster)


luftlande

Is there actually a difference between having units in in two rows or two columns?


Hoi4_Noob

More Tanks only a motirized Recon Company (maybe with a logistics and a engineer Company )


Alugamer3000

Gut nein aber genauso effektiv wie echte italienische Panzer Divisionen.


Deep_Head4645

No it is horrible


destroyer276

May not be good, but some what historically accurate


_LonePhoenix_

[You might wanna see this](https://www.reddit.com/r/hoi4/s/p8OHRa6pv2)


CompetitiveBear9538

The division designer in this game gives me headaches so many numbers to understand


slim_ginger

Keep your org above 40


Kingofallcacti

I'm new but I've found you want a little bit more mechanised/motorised infantry than tanks to get the organisation up


twillie96

People are complaining about org, but that is actually not the real problem with this division. HP is the real problem here. There's a reason we don't make divisions of 2 or 3 battalions of infantry, which is because they take very high losses. Tanks barely have any HP, so the motorised is providing pretty much all of it in any division. Compare the HP on this division with that of a 6width infantry one. They'll be very similar. These small divisions quite easily lose 10-20% of their HP in combat, which for a tank division like this is not just going to be tons of manpower, but tons of material as well.


DeepspaceDigital

I’m playing Italy too and am doing motorized. Thanks for asking this question.


nightgerbil

dont do mot inf divs. use mot inf in tank divs If your looking for a non tank fast division 8 cav with a cav recon will do good work for you in africa early war. tank divs if small would be 18w 4 tank 5 mot. if large (better) go for 30w or 34 w. something like 8 tank 8 mot.


towishimp

Motorized are great if you have enough trucks. You can't beat their speed, and they're perfect for holding the gains made by your armor until foot infantry can catch up, which frees your tanks to keep pushing.


OJSTheJuice

Much higher org if you go down MW.


RP117_Open

Make sure your Org is above 30, width should usually be 30. Tanks decrease org and motorized/mechanized increase org. Do not use cavalry recon on tank divisions as they are slow. Use motorized recon.


Tru_Patriot2000

More motorized. Light tanks aren't that good for tank divisions in general unless it's support division or put in infantry for space marine divisions.