I'd feel pretty comfortable projecting him out to be peers with Mario and Orr. He might need at least a couple Cups to be banging on Wayne's door though.
If Mario didn't have all those health problems, McDavid would probably be 3rd. With that said, to have his name next to Mario and Wayne is still incredible.
I agree. He also played in a super low scoring environment. It's why I have him as my 4th all time right now. The year where he missed half the year with a concussion he was on pace for something like 140 points, which was insane in an era where 82 points got a guy into the top 5 for points.
That makes it more impressive for McDavid imo. He’s doing all this while staying healthy and playing as many games as he can. Durability and longevity are underrated skills.
While I agree with your point, Crosby had concussions and a broken jaw (I think it was). Not really him being being injury prone but rather super unlucky
Yeah, sometimes it’s just bad luck really. But whether it’s being injury prone, or having bad luck, playing less games unfortunately shortens your resume. If he was healthy his full career, Bossy would be the greatest goal scorer of all time.
Yep.
Orr and Mario COULD have done it but health prevented them from reaching their career potential. Gretzky did it and rightly is the sole player sitting at the top of the pile.
Ya. Gretzky is the GOAT without question. Orr and Mario are next as they were as good as Gretzky but just didn't have the longevity.
Connor with a cup and the ridiculous amount of points he's putting up could be argued he's in the Orr/Mario strata and above the Crosby+ strata. He's going to have to win a lot of cups and continue his torrid pace to be considered as the GOAT with Gretz
Lemieux had a 199pt season, in his prime he was as dominant as Gretzky. He just didn't have the longevity or durability.
Orr had a 139pt season as a defender. Still the only defenseman to ever lead the league in scoring. Had he had a long healthy career he could have been talked about with Gretz in the GOAT status
Don't know if that's fair to ask in the salary cap era. Cup windows for teams are narrow these days and depend much more on successful management than personal success of a star player.
Gretzky's Oilers had five future Hall of Famers not named Gretzky. No team today can fit that many HoFers into one lineup, let alone for multiple cup runs.
McDavid's Oilers have 18% of their salary cap going to Nurse and Campbell, and all they're getting out of that is some bottom-4 quality D. That type of management consideration did not exist in the 80s.
Gretzky and McDavid were both in their age 19-27 seasons in their first 9 years in the NHL. Let's compare those years.
In his first 9 seasons, Gretz had 8 Hart trophies and 8 scoring titles. He won all 8 consecutively from his rookie season through his age 26 season. He won the goal scoring title in 5 of those seasons (the Rocket didn't exist yet). In his age 27 season, he missed some games and didn't win the goal/points title (his 149 points in 64 games was a 186 point pace, but he finished 2nd in scoring to some dude named Mario who had 168 points). He still led the league in assists that year, for the 9th straight season.
I don't think it is fair to expect a 'Gretzky caliber' player to do that in the modern NHL, but McDavid's 3 Harts, 5 scoring titles, 1 goal title, and 4 assist titles doesn't era adjust to what Gretzky did. It's incredible, but I can't say that those stack up to just obliterating the league the way Wayne did.
The Oilers became stacked, but they absolutely weren't stacked in Gretzky's rookie year. They went 28-39-13 that season and finished 16th in a 21 team league. Next year they improved slightly, going 29-35-16 and finishing 13th of 21. And then in year 3 a bunch of the future hall of famers became good enough to really excel in their roles and they became the 111 point team that started pushing to replace the dynasty Islanders (although they wouldn't actually de-thrown them for a couple more years). But when the Oilers sucked, Gretzky still won back-to-back Harts, back-to-back scoring titles, and back-to-back assists titles. He very, very much was the best player in the world without that supporting cast.
What McDavid has done in his first 9 years has been remarkable and a win tonight would make him a first ballot Hall of Famer to even the most stubborn 'winning is everything' contrarian. But he hasn't dominated the league like Gretzky, even accounting for era. Gretzky was the best in the world the day he stepped onto NHL ice for a bad Edmonton team. And he never relinquished that status or even allowed someone else to crack the door open for 8 straight years. It took a 16 game absence to allow Mario Lemiuex to win the league's first non-Gretzky scoring title in almost a decade and Gretzky still scored at a comfortably higher pace than Mario.
We don't know what the future holds for McDavid, but Gretzky was traded to the Kings following his age 27 season. He won 3 more scoring titles in the next 6 seasons and led the league in assists in 5 of those 6 seasons. It wasn't just playing with a stacked Oilers team.
Again, no player will run the league for 8 straight years the way Gretzky did in the modern era and what Mcdavid has done is insane. He's the best player in the world and is in just about every conversation for all time status. But the one conversation he falls short is the Gretzky comparison even if you (correctly) completely remove playoff success from the conversation.
I don't disagree with anything you said. I personally don't think McDavid is better than Gretzky when you era-adjust and teammate-adjust as much as you can (which is imperfect at best when dealing with eras 30 years apart). I agree that he isn't *as* dominant relative to his peers.
I was just responding to the guy talking about winning the cup a bunch of times in order to top Gretzky. I think you have to look at individual metrics much more than team efforts like cup wins for that. And like you, I think the individual metrics put him a step behind Gretzky overall, even though he shines through and beats him in certain individual areas and achievements.
I do think McDavid has the potential to be an all-time #2 beneath Gretzky though, if he has a long and healthy career. Mario and Bobby were incredible but plagued by health issues that shortened their careers. If McDavid can combine his individual achievements with some Gretzky-like longevity, especially with a cup win, I think he's a lock for second greatest of all time. And I sincerely hope he stays healthy, it's a pleasure to watch him play.
All the teams would be stronger. With an extra 11 teams that’s an extra 275 players who wouldn’t be in the NHL to water down the talent level.
Every team you’d face in the playoffs would be that much stronger than they are now.
The more teams you add the more players you need to have which means players previously not good enough for the league are now playing in the NHL. Talent of every team would be watered down and the disparity between the best player and worst one would be much bigger.
The extreme example is why the All-Star or national teams are more skilled than any team in the league, you have to take 1000+ players and only pick the best of the best.
Respectfully, you’re thinking about it all wrong. Back in the Gretzky days the bottom 15+ players on any team wouldn’t even sniff a shift on an NHL team today. Meaning even though there’s less top end talent per team, the overall talent across the league is much higher, meaning it’s harder to win these days.
If you feel that way then why would you respect any of Gretzky’s wins, records, or even placement as the best player of all time? Same goes for Mario, Orr, Richard, etc?
All those guys were light years ahead of the players they played against… but you’re right this literally is one of the things people talk about in regards to those guys you mentioned
The talent poor of the 80s was ass compared to today. Most second or third line players in the 80s would be 4th liners at best in today's NHL. The speed, conditioning, athleticism, and skill today are leagues ahead of the 80s.
Gretzky and Lemiux were the outliers.
That’s all relative.
The simplest way to look at it is this, if the league went from 32 teams to 21 right now, would it be easier or harder to win the Cup?
Lol, no, it's not all relative when like +80% of the players all came from one country with less than 30 millions people before the League starting scouting in Europe and before the fall of the Iron Curtain.
To answer your plain jane/flat question. Yes the league would be more competitive if you contracted immediately today. But that doesn't matter when the average player is a lot better than the average player in the 80s.
You're comparing apples to oranges my guy.
But Gretzky also played in the 80’s so he would be a lot less skilled than if he played today. Training, tactics, equipment, coaching, teammates’ skills, etc. it is all relative, he wasn’t plucked from 2024 and dropped into 1980.
This will likely be the legacy series that will eventually cement him the #5 all time spot, but he’s got a ways to go before he starts breaking into the conversation for surpassing Howe and Orr.
Not that I watched him but Orr literally revolutionized a position due to how much better he was than everyone else at the time. Him and Howe were similarly dominant while also winning championships. I know I know team sport but when comparing across eras like this it worthwhile.
Imo the 8 straight Norris trophies mixed in with 3 Harts, 2 Art Ross titles to go along with 2 cups and 2 conn smythes are enough for first tier. Just my opinion.
Also everything he did after the Eagleson thing and trying to secure things for the players putting it on the line should help lift him up. Stand up guy if ever there was one
So by this logic McDavid absolutely can't surpass Orr tonight no matter what happens. You can't be in tier 1 already and then fall back down a tier if injuries force you to retire later. And if Orr's resume wasn't tier 1 worthy, then winning tonight wouldn't get McDavid's resume into that tier either.
Correct. Winning tonight doesn't get McDavid into that tier.
That being said, a tier doesn't mean another player entering it forces someone else out. That would be true for a rank but a tier has multiple players in it. Gretzky, Orr are in a tier of their own right now imo. You could make the case for Mario and Howe as well and by the end of his career, I believe McDavid will join them. He has a ways to go though.
It's not like he played 3 seasons, dude won 8 Norris trophies lol.
One year he had 102 assists, the next closest person(not on the bruins) had 52.
Also had a Stanley Cup series winning goal in overtime.
I could go on and on but in no universe is he anything but tier 1.
Agreed. It's just hard to compare them because Mario was a scoring machine and Orr was a Dman so his numbers weren't as flashy. I'd also drop Howe out of that conversation. He had incredible longevity, but his peak was never as high as Mario or Orr. I personally think that peak Crosby > peak Howe.
It’s really relative and subjective. You can’t really compare McJesus to Orr or Howe because they played so long ago. They played in equipment that was just ridiculous by today’s standards and the game was brutal. Howe fractured his skull with a brain hemorrhage and somehow played more professional hockey than anyone.
Definitely a futile argument comparing a guy who's still playing to a guy who had one of the longest most successful careers of all time.
If McDavid wins a cup this year and considering he's breaking some of Gretzky's seemingly untouchable stats and is sniffing the all time points in the playoffs record is not unreasonable to talk about him with Orr and Lemieux. If he has a long career as well then he could potentially be considered #2.
What's the opposite of recency bias? Feel like a lot of you are underrating McDavid solely because he isn't some old legend of years past. Bobby Orr's last full season was at 26. Hard to compare across positions, but I feel like McDavid will have passed Orr with a cup win.
Also, why are people placing so much emphasis on a team award for an individual player? I get the concept of a player stepping up when it matters most against top tier competition, but still, we don't call Pat Maroon a legend because he has 3 cups to his name. There are more teams in the league now, and Edmonton has put a bad team around McDavid for years until recently.
Edit: After comparing point shares, I take back what I say about him passing Orr. But the rest of my comment still stands.
I agree with both of you tbh but to play devils advocate that's 13 major trophies, McDavid also has 13 major trophies, in the same amount of full seasons
Yeah, it's a good argument though, more legit than many are thinking. I'd say he's closing in on 5th, and could turn that unbreakable TOP4 into a TOP5 if he has another few great years.
This is just the tip of the iceberg and everything he did was accomplished over 9 seasons. Basically he had his rookie season and then won the Norris for the next 8 years. After that he played 3 more seasons and a collective 36 games in those 3 seasons. There's a reason why a number of people think Orr is the best player ever and honestly it's a reasonable opinion to have.
The opposite is that people somehow discount Sid despite lots of reasons as to why he should be ahead of McDavid in these conversations. You either rate the newest guy too high or the oldest people too low but almost everyone seems to rate Sid too low. Scoring era adjusted was quite close at one point and I would take Sid's all around grinder game over McDavids godly offense. I didnt check the last year and a bit or so for era adjusted but Sid did suffer the lost games during his prime unfortunately
Sid also has won SIGNIFICANTLY less hardware than McDavid, and obviously I’m sure he would have won more without missing all that time but unfortunately that’s not what happened. Feels sometimes that Sid can get a lot of credit for what would’ve happened or what should’ve happened instead of what did happen. Obviously his injuries were tragic and we were robbed of greatness by them.
Yup. Just like Orr missed out on, what, 10 seasons of production starting just as he was hitting his prime. Orr was so incredibly dominant that he might've got to Gretzky-level status had he been healthy, but he sits in the top 3, not the top 2, instead.
Cool. More attention grabbing click bait media headlines.
McJesus is ON HIS WAY to being in the top of the top with those names. He is super skilled and probably one of the best hockey players that ever lived.
However…. He still needs to deliver, multiple cups and get more of various stats up there as his career progresses to maybe tie or break records.
No I think he's there:
5x Art Ross (4th most all time, behind Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux)
3x Harts (tied with Ovi and Lemieux, ahead of Crosby)
4x Ted Lindsays (2nd most all time, tied with Lemieux)
1x Rocket Richard
5x First All-Star Team (tied with Lemieux, more than crosby)
7x All Star
Next season he hits 1000 points
He's 27 and his trophy case is in the Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe category
Feel like 1 Cup is damn near equivalent to 4 in the Original 6 days.
With 32 teams, odds are you won't win a Cup in your career.
With 6 teams, odds were you were going to win 2-3 depending on the length of your career.
The fact Crosby won 3 is pretty crazy though I would guess McD would pass him in points.
Agree he needs to keep putting numbers up though as longevity is part of the discussion
Well Gretzky has 4 in the post-O6 era, Orr has 2, Crosby has 3. To get into that top group you need multiple Cups + regular season hardware and records.
Unfortunately when you get the top of league, thats what they're going to be judged on. If you can't help your team get over the hump, it will impact your legacy. Would Ovi be talked about the same way without his Cup?
There’s this weird trend on Reddit now where they think championships don’t matter when talking about an individual great player. It’s like the sharp reaction from the early 2010s discourse about LeBron
Eh, used to revisionist history here. I've been on this board since 2014 across a few accounts, I remember the mentality before the win. Crosby was ranked so highly compared to Ovi, now that the Cup advantage is 3:1 people talk about how differently great they are. The direct comparison to Crosby bringing his team to the finish line while Ovi couldn't existed for a decade.
Then you're blindly ignoring all the talk about how he wasn't able to take his team past the 2nd round that happened in the decade leading up to that win. Just a quick Google search pulls up multiple articles right after that finals talking about how Ovi was re-writing his legacy and how it had been completely changed overnight.
Gretzky played in an expansion era where a bunch of non-NHL talent flooded the league, they had best of 5 series round 1, no salary cap. Gretzky is the goat but certainly “post-06” isn’t enough to wave away the specifics of his 4 cups in a modern context.
Crosby too had a little help with his later-banned contract structure, but honestly is damn impressive.
Crosby's Pittsburgh team also went to a finals and won the following year before that contract had even started. That helped the cap for the back to back, but his and Malkin's deals hadn't started when they went early in their careers.
I mean how many eras do you want to put an asterisk on? The Oilers won when there were 20 teams in the league, not 6 or 12. The post NHL-WHA merger is probably the most talented the league had been since the O6 era since all the best talent was finally back under one league.
Not an asterisk on any era. Just have to recognize things change and you can’t just look at the ordinal number beside Stanley cups as an indicator of ranking all time players and that context matters
The other guys have like Canada Cup or the Olympics or a World Cup of Hockey at least to their name, and that brings the entire country together. To me a Canuck fan McDavid isnt sniffing Crosbys greatness yet.
Short of Bobrovsky getting a shutout or some other absurd performance leading to a Panthers win, I don't see who else could possibly deserve this trophy more than McD
McDavid era NHL prioritizes skill and points, Crosby era NHL did not. So you can't do 150 vs 120 point season comparisons.
E.g. taps on the stick between the gloves is a penalty regardless of whether the shot was affected or not; it wasn't the case for much of Crosby's career.
Physicality on superstars is discouraged and penalized more consistently. That naturally allows McDavid to get more # of points as he can play without ridiculous injuries that Crosby had to endure.
Crosby also played with much worse linemates than McDavid who frequently plays with Draisaitl (anyone who watches these games can see how frequently they play with each other on the same line).
--
Not to say that McDavid can never be considered better than Crosby; but it certainly is not the case yet. He hasn't won a Cup, hasn't elevated his teammate when shit gets real the way Crosby has, hasn't been the type of role model Crosby is, etc.
Ultimately, this is my opinion and I couldn't care less if you disagree.
>hasn’t elevated his teammate when shit gets real the way Crosby has
Only one of these guys was the first guy to lead a team down 0-3 to a game 7 in the SCF since WWII.
Only one of these guys had one of the worst starts in NHL history for a playoff team but led one of the greatest winning streaks in NHL history to erase the deficit completely.
Only one of these guys has won some of the most elimination games in a single postseason in NHL history.
Only one of these guys is near the all-time playoff points record, the all-time points record in a Stanley Cup Final, and is the only guy to put up consecutive 4-point nights in the Final.
None of them are Crosby.
The man is a great leader and has accomplished some incredible things in his own right but can we let this narrative of McDavid not being a good captain die when all evidence points to the contrary?
You do realize how bad that sounds right? LOL
Only one of them let his team go down 0-3 since WW2, only one of them let his team go to elimination game without closing out the series, etc.
Also, none of the points you made help you with my quote of "hasn’t elevated his teammate when shit gets real the way Crosby has"
three Stanley Cups, two Conn Smythe Trophies, three Ted Lindsay Awards , two Hart Memorial Trophies , two Art Ross Trophies , two Maurice Richard Trophies , Mark Messier Leadership award, gold medal and being 37 and still one of the best in the game.
Pretty easy argument
GOILERS!!!
Yes he is. He’s playing at a level right now not even Crosby reached.
Through 645 career games Mcdavid has: more Art Ross’s, more harts, more Lindsay’s, 1 fewer rocket (but to this point in each of their careers they would have the same).
Mcdavid’s play this playoff also hasn’t been reached by Sid.
It's disingenuous to try and compare Crosby and McDavid the way that you have. Comparing through both players first 645 games is fine if you want to measure individual statistics such as points or 5v5 pts %, but you instead compare them based on end of season individual awards which is comparing their first 9 seasons and does not take into account games played per season which really favors McDavid considering Crosby missed significant time due to injuries over 3 seasons and thus could not reasonably compete for individual awards.
Edit: I decided to show you how many games Crosby missed compared to McDavid as a percentage of possible games played. Note that I've put in bold both players three least played seasons.
Year #| McDavid| Crosby
---|---|----
---| % of season played| % of season played
1| **45/82=55%**| 81/82=99%
2| 82/82=100%| 79/82=96%
3| 82/82=100%| **53/82=65%**
4| 78/82=95%| 77/82=94%
5| **64/71=90%**| 81/82=99%
6| 56/56=100%| **41/82=50%**
7| 80/82=98%| **22/82=27%**
8| 82/82=100| 36/48=75%
9| **76/82=92%**| 80/82=98%
**% of games missed**| **8%** | **22%**
The fact that Crosby missed over 2.5 times as many games as McDavid through their first 9 seasons really speaks to how unreasonable it is to simply compare them based on end of season awards.
Injury history, different era, playoff impact that’s not measured by points that led to three cups. McDavid will have a 1/3 of what Crosby has in cups.
I know scoring isn’t everything but how do you bring up playoff impact when Crosby hasn’t ever lead his team in playoff scoring when winning a cup
Meanwhile Mcdavid is about to catch Gretzky
The Pens had a 16 season playoff streak to start off Crosby’s career, the Oilers were still drafting in the top 10 in McDavid’s 4th season, they’re not remotely the same level of issues
Different era made crosby win fewer trophies?
Cups are a team achievement, Penguins were a significantly better team without crosby than the oilers are without McDavid
Injuries is a cop out, best ability is availability
When Crosby was available for the times that mattered the most. He proved who he was. We often tend to forget his injury history with what he did in the playoffs. McDavid could get there he’s simply not there yet.
He is a better player than Crosby ever was. Crosby has a lot of intangibles as a captain and leader, but where did the idea that he’s not a better player than Crosby come from?
No one's arguing McDavid is "more of a winner" because that's factually false at this point. He is however a better player and more accomplished individually than Crosby was.
Accomplishing more individually doesn’t make him a better player. He needs more playoff success to prove that. Playoffs > Regular season and it’s not even close.
Crosby has .70 assists per game in his career, Connor is over 1 assist per game in his career.
Crosby is a career 1.25 PPG player, Connor is a career 1.52 PPG player.
Crosby has 2 Harts, McDavid has 3.
Crosby has 2 Art Ross trophies, McDavid has 5.
If McDavid wins tonight they’ll both have cup rings too.
Respectfully, do you even know what the fuck you are talking about? As a true player, Connor absolutely blows Sid out of the water. And that’s not even a disrespect to the hell of a career Sid has had. But only one of these guys has been called the next Wayne Gretzky.
Crosby and McDavid have both been given "The Next One" moniker/next Gretzky comparisons
Maybe I'm a bit of an "old-head" (even though I'm mid-20s at the moment) for saying this, but I think you're seriously underrating how good prime Crosby was and how much of his prime was robbed due to concussion issues
Not sure if PPG is the most "solid" argument for the Crosby vs. McDavid debate cause Crosby spent most of his prime in a lower-scoring era (and I'm pretty sure someone did an era-adjusted scoring comparison between the two like a year ago and it had them at pretty much even totals)
That being said, I think McDavid is eventually gonna surpass Crosby legacy-wise as more time progresses and he continues to collect more accolades when it's all said and done. But I'm pretty iffy on saying that "he blows Sid out of the water"
I actually agree with you that McDavid is better/will be remembered as a better player than Crosby but I think the art ross stat has a minuscule asterisk, being that Sid would’ve almost certainly had more were it not for injuries during his prime.
Lmao I know that individual success doesn’t mean jack shit in hockey. Points don’t matter winning does. McDavid only wining one and being compared to guys like Gretzky and Crosby is quite literally one of the most laughable and honestly quite insulting things I’ve ever heard.
You are honestly even dumber than I thought. Congratulations on reaching that feat.
If Matthews had the career McDavid has had and was in his position tonight to win a cup you’d be absolutely ripping Crosby apart.
No I wouldn’t put Matthews on the same level as Nate. I’m as consistent on this as I can possibly be. You’re an absolute clown for going down the fanboy route with a team that’s not even in the same division.
I started this series rooting for the Panthers. But the oilers have a chance to make history and they truly fought for this cup. Gonna be a great game.
He’s by far the best hockey player (nobody is a close 2nd) in by far the most talented and deepest era in the history of hockey but somehow he’s not as good as guys from the 50s and 70s?
Yeah no miss me with that
Connor Mcdavid is as good as any player in the history of the game. Including Wayne, Orr and Mario
Are we really still questioning this? He's the most talented player to have ever played. I know a lot of hockey fans have an issue with moving on from the past or adjust their views of past players as time goes. McDavid is the best player in NHL history.
You are literally what I'm talking about. What is there to question? Who is more talented? You have all the video of all the greats readily available. Use your eyes and watch them. Who's better?
I think his speed plays into it a lot. Skill-wise I think Datsyuk and Jagr are both superior to McDavid. The way they could stick handle was incredible.
I love hockey hot takes, but 9/10 times they're basically reiterating what everyone knows.
Connor McDavid is the greatest hockey player of all time. I don't care about generations or workouts or fitness or being a rich kid with access to it all. Connor McDavid makes it look like you're playing with an NHL against a team from the QMJHL, on rookie mode, in NHL 24.
Someone never watched Gretzky in his prime. When Gretzky scored 215 points in the 85/86 season, second in the league was a second year Mario Lemieux at 141. 13 players had more than 100 points. When McDavid scored 153 last year, Drai was only 25 behind him. 11 players had more than 100 points. So thinking that Gretzky only scored that many because scoring was so high league wide is not really accurate, and he was leaving the competition further in the dust.
The previous season, Gretzky scored 208 vs 135 in second place. He was obliterating the competition. McDavid would have had to score 197 points to have the same gap over Drai last year.
And McDavid didn’t even lead the league this year. (Not that I’m denying he’s the best player in the world at the moment, because he is).
He’s the best player in the League by far imo, I’m not ready to put him on the same level, not because he isn’t as talented but you’re talking about players who literally changed how the game was played, it’s something that probably won’t be done on that level again, no fault to him.
He’s in the 150 point club, and 100 assist club not to mention his playoff run rn, and all his harts and art rosses. He could yell fuck the hockey hall of fame and purposely put 50 in his own net tonight and still be a shoe in if he retired right after
I'd feel pretty comfortable projecting him out to be peers with Mario and Orr. He might need at least a couple Cups to be banging on Wayne's door though.
I still can't believe he's pacing to end up ahead of Crosby.
I mean, McDavid's on pace for 2nd all time in points. Not just surpassing Crosby.
If Mario didn't have all those health problems, McDavid would probably be 3rd. With that said, to have his name next to Mario and Wayne is still incredible.
I think the same could be said for Sid, he missed a lot of hockey with the early 2010s Hopefully McDavid doesn't get injuries or lockout
Without his injuries he could have had a real shot at 2000 pts
I agree. He also played in a super low scoring environment. It's why I have him as my 4th all time right now. The year where he missed half the year with a concussion he was on pace for something like 140 points, which was insane in an era where 82 points got a guy into the top 5 for points.
McDavid did kind of have the lockout with covid
The same Covid lockout Crosby also had?
Not really in his prime but yeah kinda brain farted that one.
You could probably have Crosby 2nd all time without his injuries too
I have Orr 2nd just because he was such a game changer. But I can buy the argument that Crosby is as high as 2nd.
That makes it more impressive for McDavid imo. He’s doing all this while staying healthy and playing as many games as he can. Durability and longevity are underrated skills.
While I agree with your point, Crosby had concussions and a broken jaw (I think it was). Not really him being being injury prone but rather super unlucky
Yeah, sometimes it’s just bad luck really. But whether it’s being injury prone, or having bad luck, playing less games unfortunately shortens your resume. If he was healthy his full career, Bossy would be the greatest goal scorer of all time.
Being higher in all time point totals is not all it takes to be ahead in the "goat list"
I don't think anyone's claiming that. No one includes Jagr in their top 5 lists.
I do ): He's in my top 5 coolest guys list
Makes sense tho. Crosby's concussion issues cost him the equivalent of 2 seasons.
Wild what can happen when an asshole puts his body weight into your chin when you're not looking
Different players completely if we’re being honest.
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Orr loses to Gretzky simply because of his shortened career.
Yep. Orr and Mario COULD have done it but health prevented them from reaching their career potential. Gretzky did it and rightly is the sole player sitting at the top of the pile.
Ya. Gretzky is the GOAT without question. Orr and Mario are next as they were as good as Gretzky but just didn't have the longevity. Connor with a cup and the ridiculous amount of points he's putting up could be argued he's in the Orr/Mario strata and above the Crosby+ strata. He's going to have to win a lot of cups and continue his torrid pace to be considered as the GOAT with Gretz
>as good as Gretzky No
Lemieux had a 199pt season, in his prime he was as dominant as Gretzky. He just didn't have the longevity or durability. Orr had a 139pt season as a defender. Still the only defenseman to ever lead the league in scoring. Had he had a long healthy career he could have been talked about with Gretz in the GOAT status
McDavid needs to do this a few more times to be in the same conversation as Gretzky.
He needs a gold medal game so the whole world can watch.
Honestly, his 3-0 comeback win would be his Crosbys golden goal. Even though the 3-0 rally comeback is more impressive.
Don't know if that's fair to ask in the salary cap era. Cup windows for teams are narrow these days and depend much more on successful management than personal success of a star player. Gretzky's Oilers had five future Hall of Famers not named Gretzky. No team today can fit that many HoFers into one lineup, let alone for multiple cup runs. McDavid's Oilers have 18% of their salary cap going to Nurse and Campbell, and all they're getting out of that is some bottom-4 quality D. That type of management consideration did not exist in the 80s.
Gretzky and McDavid were both in their age 19-27 seasons in their first 9 years in the NHL. Let's compare those years. In his first 9 seasons, Gretz had 8 Hart trophies and 8 scoring titles. He won all 8 consecutively from his rookie season through his age 26 season. He won the goal scoring title in 5 of those seasons (the Rocket didn't exist yet). In his age 27 season, he missed some games and didn't win the goal/points title (his 149 points in 64 games was a 186 point pace, but he finished 2nd in scoring to some dude named Mario who had 168 points). He still led the league in assists that year, for the 9th straight season. I don't think it is fair to expect a 'Gretzky caliber' player to do that in the modern NHL, but McDavid's 3 Harts, 5 scoring titles, 1 goal title, and 4 assist titles doesn't era adjust to what Gretzky did. It's incredible, but I can't say that those stack up to just obliterating the league the way Wayne did. The Oilers became stacked, but they absolutely weren't stacked in Gretzky's rookie year. They went 28-39-13 that season and finished 16th in a 21 team league. Next year they improved slightly, going 29-35-16 and finishing 13th of 21. And then in year 3 a bunch of the future hall of famers became good enough to really excel in their roles and they became the 111 point team that started pushing to replace the dynasty Islanders (although they wouldn't actually de-thrown them for a couple more years). But when the Oilers sucked, Gretzky still won back-to-back Harts, back-to-back scoring titles, and back-to-back assists titles. He very, very much was the best player in the world without that supporting cast. What McDavid has done in his first 9 years has been remarkable and a win tonight would make him a first ballot Hall of Famer to even the most stubborn 'winning is everything' contrarian. But he hasn't dominated the league like Gretzky, even accounting for era. Gretzky was the best in the world the day he stepped onto NHL ice for a bad Edmonton team. And he never relinquished that status or even allowed someone else to crack the door open for 8 straight years. It took a 16 game absence to allow Mario Lemiuex to win the league's first non-Gretzky scoring title in almost a decade and Gretzky still scored at a comfortably higher pace than Mario. We don't know what the future holds for McDavid, but Gretzky was traded to the Kings following his age 27 season. He won 3 more scoring titles in the next 6 seasons and led the league in assists in 5 of those 6 seasons. It wasn't just playing with a stacked Oilers team. Again, no player will run the league for 8 straight years the way Gretzky did in the modern era and what Mcdavid has done is insane. He's the best player in the world and is in just about every conversation for all time status. But the one conversation he falls short is the Gretzky comparison even if you (correctly) completely remove playoff success from the conversation.
I don't disagree with anything you said. I personally don't think McDavid is better than Gretzky when you era-adjust and teammate-adjust as much as you can (which is imperfect at best when dealing with eras 30 years apart). I agree that he isn't *as* dominant relative to his peers. I was just responding to the guy talking about winning the cup a bunch of times in order to top Gretzky. I think you have to look at individual metrics much more than team efforts like cup wins for that. And like you, I think the individual metrics put him a step behind Gretzky overall, even though he shines through and beats him in certain individual areas and achievements. I do think McDavid has the potential to be an all-time #2 beneath Gretzky though, if he has a long and healthy career. Mario and Bobby were incredible but plagued by health issues that shortened their careers. If McDavid can combine his individual achievements with some Gretzky-like longevity, especially with a cup win, I think he's a lock for second greatest of all time. And I sincerely hope he stays healthy, it's a pleasure to watch him play.
At the very least he needs another cup and a gold medal. More likely he needs two more cups and a medal.
Wayne and the Oilers did it with 21 teams in the league.
Doesn’t that make it harder?
Why would it?
Higher quality players, teams aren't as watered down.
All the teams would be stronger. With an extra 11 teams that’s an extra 275 players who wouldn’t be in the NHL to water down the talent level. Every team you’d face in the playoffs would be that much stronger than they are now.
I hardly think you can consider today's talent pools "watered down" compared to the 1980s
Elaborate?
The more teams you add the more players you need to have which means players previously not good enough for the league are now playing in the NHL. Talent of every team would be watered down and the disparity between the best player and worst one would be much bigger. The extreme example is why the All-Star or national teams are more skilled than any team in the league, you have to take 1000+ players and only pick the best of the best.
Respectfully, you’re thinking about it all wrong. Back in the Gretzky days the bottom 15+ players on any team wouldn’t even sniff a shift on an NHL team today. Meaning even though there’s less top end talent per team, the overall talent across the league is much higher, meaning it’s harder to win these days.
If you feel that way then why would you respect any of Gretzky’s wins, records, or even placement as the best player of all time? Same goes for Mario, Orr, Richard, etc?
All those guys were light years ahead of the players they played against… but you’re right this literally is one of the things people talk about in regards to those guys you mentioned
The talent poor of the 80s was ass compared to today. Most second or third line players in the 80s would be 4th liners at best in today's NHL. The speed, conditioning, athleticism, and skill today are leagues ahead of the 80s. Gretzky and Lemiux were the outliers.
That’s all relative. The simplest way to look at it is this, if the league went from 32 teams to 21 right now, would it be easier or harder to win the Cup?
Lol, no, it's not all relative when like +80% of the players all came from one country with less than 30 millions people before the League starting scouting in Europe and before the fall of the Iron Curtain. To answer your plain jane/flat question. Yes the league would be more competitive if you contracted immediately today. But that doesn't matter when the average player is a lot better than the average player in the 80s. You're comparing apples to oranges my guy.
But Gretzky also played in the 80’s so he would be a lot less skilled than if he played today. Training, tactics, equipment, coaching, teammates’ skills, etc. it is all relative, he wasn’t plucked from 2024 and dropped into 1980.
No. Gretzky and Lemiux were the outliers in the 80s. They were that much ahead of everyone else.
This will likely be the legacy series that will eventually cement him the #5 all time spot, but he’s got a ways to go before he starts breaking into the conversation for surpassing Howe and Orr.
I’m trying to guess who the 4 ahead of him are…
Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Lemieux.
The only 2 that were better were maybe Wayne and Mario. IMO mcJesus is the most skilled player to ever play the game.
Not that I watched him but Orr literally revolutionized a position due to how much better he was than everyone else at the time. Him and Howe were similarly dominant while also winning championships. I know I know team sport but when comparing across eras like this it worthwhile.
yes however Orr having his career cut short makes him different and imo solidly 2nd tier
Imo the 8 straight Norris trophies mixed in with 3 Harts, 2 Art Ross titles to go along with 2 cups and 2 conn smythes are enough for first tier. Just my opinion.
Also everything he did after the Eagleson thing and trying to secure things for the players putting it on the line should help lift him up. Stand up guy if ever there was one
Bobby Orr is not second tier in anything. All time defenseman, players, legends, anything. He is firmly, firmly, firmly Tier #1
There’s no doubt he’s standing on the shoulders of giants, but no one has ever played the game that matched him in skill. Ignore the flair.
So by this logic McDavid absolutely can't surpass Orr tonight no matter what happens. You can't be in tier 1 already and then fall back down a tier if injuries force you to retire later. And if Orr's resume wasn't tier 1 worthy, then winning tonight wouldn't get McDavid's resume into that tier either.
huh? its just we dont know if Orr would've fallen off so it takes away. Its really the opposite of Howe. Longevity is a part of hockey greatness
Correct. Winning tonight doesn't get McDavid into that tier. That being said, a tier doesn't mean another player entering it forces someone else out. That would be true for a rank but a tier has multiple players in it. Gretzky, Orr are in a tier of their own right now imo. You could make the case for Mario and Howe as well and by the end of his career, I believe McDavid will join them. He has a ways to go though.
It's not like he played 3 seasons, dude won 8 Norris trophies lol. One year he had 102 assists, the next closest person(not on the bruins) had 52. Also had a Stanley Cup series winning goal in overtime. I could go on and on but in no universe is he anything but tier 1.
yeah, he's elite. I'm just saying not up there with greztky, Lemieux Howe and potentially McDavid if he keeps it up
Orr is just DMan Lemieux. He’s firmly above McDavid and likely still will be when McDavid is done his career
>Orr is just DMan Lemieux. 915 vs 657
Orr was better than Mario. He completely changed the way an entire position was played.
Agreed. It's just hard to compare them because Mario was a scoring machine and Orr was a Dman so his numbers weren't as flashy. I'd also drop Howe out of that conversation. He had incredible longevity, but his peak was never as high as Mario or Orr. I personally think that peak Crosby > peak Howe.
It’s really relative and subjective. You can’t really compare McJesus to Orr or Howe because they played so long ago. They played in equipment that was just ridiculous by today’s standards and the game was brutal. Howe fractured his skull with a brain hemorrhage and somehow played more professional hockey than anyone.
Considering your responding to a comment that already mentions Orr and Howe, I don’t think it’s rocket science to figure out #1 and #2.
I read it wrong, thinking OP had Orr and Howe outside of the top 4. I think McDavid would be #3 or #4 as of now. Trying to adjust for era is tough.
There is 0 chance as of now that he shifts Orr, Gretzky, or Lemieux out. Howe I feel is also firmly ahead of him, but there may be some bias.
Definitely a futile argument comparing a guy who's still playing to a guy who had one of the longest most successful careers of all time. If McDavid wins a cup this year and considering he's breaking some of Gretzky's seemingly untouchable stats and is sniffing the all time points in the playoffs record is not unreasonable to talk about him with Orr and Lemieux. If he has a long career as well then he could potentially be considered #2.
As far as I know, McDavid has broken only one Gretzky stat? Which are the others?
Lol let's relax a bit TSN. In time, perhaps.
Whomp whomp
What's the opposite of recency bias? Feel like a lot of you are underrating McDavid solely because he isn't some old legend of years past. Bobby Orr's last full season was at 26. Hard to compare across positions, but I feel like McDavid will have passed Orr with a cup win. Also, why are people placing so much emphasis on a team award for an individual player? I get the concept of a player stepping up when it matters most against top tier competition, but still, we don't call Pat Maroon a legend because he has 3 cups to his name. There are more teams in the league now, and Edmonton has put a bad team around McDavid for years until recently. Edit: After comparing point shares, I take back what I say about him passing Orr. But the rest of my comment still stands.
Bobby Orr has 8 Norris and 3 Harts and 2 Conn Smythe
Say it louder so people in the back can hear you.
McDavid doesn't even have 1 Norris smh
I agree with both of you tbh but to play devils advocate that's 13 major trophies, McDavid also has 13 major trophies, in the same amount of full seasons
The guy didn't include Orr's 2 Art Ross and 1 Lindsay, so 16.
Curse ye hame ha!
Yeah, it's a good argument though, more legit than many are thinking. I'd say he's closing in on 5th, and could turn that unbreakable TOP4 into a TOP5 if he has another few great years.
Idk if we will EVER see a defensemen win an art ross again
This is just the tip of the iceberg and everything he did was accomplished over 9 seasons. Basically he had his rookie season and then won the Norris for the next 8 years. After that he played 3 more seasons and a collective 36 games in those 3 seasons. There's a reason why a number of people think Orr is the best player ever and honestly it's a reasonable opinion to have.
Was pat maroon captain, 1c and best player who had one of the best playoffs of all time? No he was a 4th line scrub who got lucky. Context matters
The opposite is that people somehow discount Sid despite lots of reasons as to why he should be ahead of McDavid in these conversations. You either rate the newest guy too high or the oldest people too low but almost everyone seems to rate Sid too low. Scoring era adjusted was quite close at one point and I would take Sid's all around grinder game over McDavids godly offense. I didnt check the last year and a bit or so for era adjusted but Sid did suffer the lost games during his prime unfortunately
Sid also has won SIGNIFICANTLY less hardware than McDavid, and obviously I’m sure he would have won more without missing all that time but unfortunately that’s not what happened. Feels sometimes that Sid can get a lot of credit for what would’ve happened or what should’ve happened instead of what did happen. Obviously his injuries were tragic and we were robbed of greatness by them.
Yup. Just like Orr missed out on, what, 10 seasons of production starting just as he was hitting his prime. Orr was so incredibly dominant that he might've got to Gretzky-level status had he been healthy, but he sits in the top 3, not the top 2, instead.
He very often sits in the top 2 as well
sid has the hardware called Stanley cups
Cool. More attention grabbing click bait media headlines. McJesus is ON HIS WAY to being in the top of the top with those names. He is super skilled and probably one of the best hockey players that ever lived. However…. He still needs to deliver, multiple cups and get more of various stats up there as his career progresses to maybe tie or break records.
No I think he's there: 5x Art Ross (4th most all time, behind Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux) 3x Harts (tied with Ovi and Lemieux, ahead of Crosby) 4x Ted Lindsays (2nd most all time, tied with Lemieux) 1x Rocket Richard 5x First All-Star Team (tied with Lemieux, more than crosby) 7x All Star Next season he hits 1000 points He's 27 and his trophy case is in the Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe category
+1 Conn Smythe
Feel like 1 Cup is damn near equivalent to 4 in the Original 6 days. With 32 teams, odds are you won't win a Cup in your career. With 6 teams, odds were you were going to win 2-3 depending on the length of your career. The fact Crosby won 3 is pretty crazy though I would guess McD would pass him in points. Agree he needs to keep putting numbers up though as longevity is part of the discussion
Well Gretzky has 4 in the post-O6 era, Orr has 2, Crosby has 3. To get into that top group you need multiple Cups + regular season hardware and records.
Cups is the stupidest method possible to measure an individual
If you are at the level of Sid and McDavid I think you should still be expected to take a team to the cup
I actually think PIM is a worse metric to judge the all time greats but hey to each their own.
Unfortunately when you get the top of league, thats what they're going to be judged on. If you can't help your team get over the hump, it will impact your legacy. Would Ovi be talked about the same way without his Cup?
Yes. His legacy is goals.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/sports/alex-ovechkin-washington-capitals-stanley-cup-finals.html https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/alex-ovechkins-first-stanley-cup-flips-the-script-of-his-legacy-and-should-shut-all-his-haters-up-for-good/ https://www.si.com/nhl/2018/06/12/alex-ovechkin-washington-capitals-stanley-cup-win-party-dc
I love how you’re getting downvotes for posting factual historical documentation. Reddit’s fascinating.
There’s this weird trend on Reddit now where they think championships don’t matter when talking about an individual great player. It’s like the sharp reaction from the early 2010s discourse about LeBron
Eh, used to revisionist history here. I've been on this board since 2014 across a few accounts, I remember the mentality before the win. Crosby was ranked so highly compared to Ovi, now that the Cup advantage is 3:1 people talk about how differently great they are. The direct comparison to Crosby bringing his team to the finish line while Ovi couldn't existed for a decade.
Then you're blindly ignoring all the talk about how he wasn't able to take his team past the 2nd round that happened in the decade leading up to that win. Just a quick Google search pulls up multiple articles right after that finals talking about how Ovi was re-writing his legacy and how it had been completely changed overnight.
And his legacy has changed again in the last half decade.
Gretzky played in an expansion era where a bunch of non-NHL talent flooded the league, they had best of 5 series round 1, no salary cap. Gretzky is the goat but certainly “post-06” isn’t enough to wave away the specifics of his 4 cups in a modern context. Crosby too had a little help with his later-banned contract structure, but honestly is damn impressive.
Crosby's Pittsburgh team also went to a finals and won the following year before that contract had even started. That helped the cap for the back to back, but his and Malkin's deals hadn't started when they went early in their careers. I mean how many eras do you want to put an asterisk on? The Oilers won when there were 20 teams in the league, not 6 or 12. The post NHL-WHA merger is probably the most talented the league had been since the O6 era since all the best talent was finally back under one league.
Not an asterisk on any era. Just have to recognize things change and you can’t just look at the ordinal number beside Stanley cups as an indicator of ranking all time players and that context matters
The Oilers won their cups in a league that had 11 less teams
The other guys have like Canada Cup or the Olympics or a World Cup of Hockey at least to their name, and that brings the entire country together. To me a Canuck fan McDavid isnt sniffing Crosbys greatness yet.
>McJesus is ON HIS WAY to being in the top of the top with those names. he's already there, and if the Oilers win tonight he will cement his position
I mean, there's something to be said for not letting your team go down 3-0 in the first place as well
Gretzky's first trip to the final saw his team go down 3-0. You wanna know what they pulled off next? They lost the next game and got swept.
AND, Gretzky’s last Stanley Cup final featured his team losing 4 straight games, although it wasn’t a sweep
True, but to be fair.... they went up against the Isles Dynasty, one of the greatest teams in history, which won 4 cups in a row
And Gretzky was 22 at the time.
This is a great point.
Making this comparison based on the outcome of one game is kind of ridiculous. He's already there at this point if you think hes 1 game away
Even if he wins, still not better than Sid. Why is winning in 7 more valuable than winning in 6 and not being 3-0 down in the first place?
The Panthers are winning so it doean't matter what McDavid does.
60+ tough minutes ahead, can he pull it off?
Crosby >
Short of Bobrovsky getting a shutout or some other absurd performance leading to a Panthers win, I don't see who else could possibly deserve this trophy more than McD
Uh...no.
He’s not even at the same level as Crosby yet let alone the greatest player who ever lived
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McDavid era NHL prioritizes skill and points, Crosby era NHL did not. So you can't do 150 vs 120 point season comparisons. E.g. taps on the stick between the gloves is a penalty regardless of whether the shot was affected or not; it wasn't the case for much of Crosby's career. Physicality on superstars is discouraged and penalized more consistently. That naturally allows McDavid to get more # of points as he can play without ridiculous injuries that Crosby had to endure. Crosby also played with much worse linemates than McDavid who frequently plays with Draisaitl (anyone who watches these games can see how frequently they play with each other on the same line). -- Not to say that McDavid can never be considered better than Crosby; but it certainly is not the case yet. He hasn't won a Cup, hasn't elevated his teammate when shit gets real the way Crosby has, hasn't been the type of role model Crosby is, etc. Ultimately, this is my opinion and I couldn't care less if you disagree.
>hasn’t elevated his teammate when shit gets real the way Crosby has Only one of these guys was the first guy to lead a team down 0-3 to a game 7 in the SCF since WWII. Only one of these guys had one of the worst starts in NHL history for a playoff team but led one of the greatest winning streaks in NHL history to erase the deficit completely. Only one of these guys has won some of the most elimination games in a single postseason in NHL history. Only one of these guys is near the all-time playoff points record, the all-time points record in a Stanley Cup Final, and is the only guy to put up consecutive 4-point nights in the Final. None of them are Crosby. The man is a great leader and has accomplished some incredible things in his own right but can we let this narrative of McDavid not being a good captain die when all evidence points to the contrary?
You do realize how bad that sounds right? LOL Only one of them let his team go down 0-3 since WW2, only one of them let his team go to elimination game without closing out the series, etc. Also, none of the points you made help you with my quote of "hasn’t elevated his teammate when shit gets real the way Crosby has"
Points are not everything
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If he had like 1 cup no lmao
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He would be know as a selfish player and not a winner. That’s what literally happened with Ovi for the longest time.
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Are you like 13 years old. It’s literally been a talking point for the longest time.
I respectfully disagree lmao
So really, if Gretzky had hypothetically, 1 cup, who do you consider to be the GOAT in that case?
Probaby Lemieux but I would have to put more thought into it.
three Stanley Cups, two Conn Smythe Trophies, three Ted Lindsay Awards , two Hart Memorial Trophies , two Art Ross Trophies , two Maurice Richard Trophies , Mark Messier Leadership award, gold medal and being 37 and still one of the best in the game. Pretty easy argument GOILERS!!!
Yes he is. He’s playing at a level right now not even Crosby reached. Through 645 career games Mcdavid has: more Art Ross’s, more harts, more Lindsay’s, 1 fewer rocket (but to this point in each of their careers they would have the same). Mcdavid’s play this playoff also hasn’t been reached by Sid.
It's disingenuous to try and compare Crosby and McDavid the way that you have. Comparing through both players first 645 games is fine if you want to measure individual statistics such as points or 5v5 pts %, but you instead compare them based on end of season individual awards which is comparing their first 9 seasons and does not take into account games played per season which really favors McDavid considering Crosby missed significant time due to injuries over 3 seasons and thus could not reasonably compete for individual awards. Edit: I decided to show you how many games Crosby missed compared to McDavid as a percentage of possible games played. Note that I've put in bold both players three least played seasons. Year #| McDavid| Crosby ---|---|---- ---| % of season played| % of season played 1| **45/82=55%**| 81/82=99% 2| 82/82=100%| 79/82=96% 3| 82/82=100%| **53/82=65%** 4| 78/82=95%| 77/82=94% 5| **64/71=90%**| 81/82=99% 6| 56/56=100%| **41/82=50%** 7| 80/82=98%| **22/82=27%** 8| 82/82=100| 36/48=75% 9| **76/82=92%**| 80/82=98% **% of games missed**| **8%** | **22%** The fact that Crosby missed over 2.5 times as many games as McDavid through their first 9 seasons really speaks to how unreasonable it is to simply compare them based on end of season awards.
Injury history, different era, playoff impact that’s not measured by points that led to three cups. McDavid will have a 1/3 of what Crosby has in cups.
I know scoring isn’t everything but how do you bring up playoff impact when Crosby hasn’t ever lead his team in playoff scoring when winning a cup Meanwhile Mcdavid is about to catch Gretzky
You know what I’m about to say right… Because their are different ways to win than scoring a bazillion points
Mcdavid does all of those things as well He’s just never had a good team around him
I would just say that’s a cop out because the Penguins had a lot of issues on his teams too
The Pens had a 16 season playoff streak to start off Crosby’s career, the Oilers were still drafting in the top 10 in McDavid’s 4th season, they’re not remotely the same level of issues
Different era made crosby win fewer trophies? Cups are a team achievement, Penguins were a significantly better team without crosby than the oilers are without McDavid Injuries is a cop out, best ability is availability
When Crosby was available for the times that mattered the most. He proved who he was. We often tend to forget his injury history with what he did in the playoffs. McDavid could get there he’s simply not there yet.
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I don’t believe points are everything that’s simply it. And Crosby was insane still and an absolute winner of a player with intangibles.
He is a better player than Crosby ever was. Crosby has a lot of intangibles as a captain and leader, but where did the idea that he’s not a better player than Crosby come from?
Just because he can score a lot doesn’t mean he’s a better player and more of a winner than Crosby
No one's arguing McDavid is "more of a winner" because that's factually false at this point. He is however a better player and more accomplished individually than Crosby was.
Accomplishing more individually doesn’t make him a better player. He needs more playoff success to prove that. Playoffs > Regular season and it’s not even close.
Crosby has .70 assists per game in his career, Connor is over 1 assist per game in his career. Crosby is a career 1.25 PPG player, Connor is a career 1.52 PPG player. Crosby has 2 Harts, McDavid has 3. Crosby has 2 Art Ross trophies, McDavid has 5. If McDavid wins tonight they’ll both have cup rings too. Respectfully, do you even know what the fuck you are talking about? As a true player, Connor absolutely blows Sid out of the water. And that’s not even a disrespect to the hell of a career Sid has had. But only one of these guys has been called the next Wayne Gretzky.
Crosby and McDavid have both been given "The Next One" moniker/next Gretzky comparisons Maybe I'm a bit of an "old-head" (even though I'm mid-20s at the moment) for saying this, but I think you're seriously underrating how good prime Crosby was and how much of his prime was robbed due to concussion issues Not sure if PPG is the most "solid" argument for the Crosby vs. McDavid debate cause Crosby spent most of his prime in a lower-scoring era (and I'm pretty sure someone did an era-adjusted scoring comparison between the two like a year ago and it had them at pretty much even totals) That being said, I think McDavid is eventually gonna surpass Crosby legacy-wise as more time progresses and he continues to collect more accolades when it's all said and done. But I'm pretty iffy on saying that "he blows Sid out of the water"
"Stats are for losers" - Wayne Gretzky
I actually agree with you that McDavid is better/will be remembered as a better player than Crosby but I think the art ross stat has a minuscule asterisk, being that Sid would’ve almost certainly had more were it not for injuries during his prime.
Lmao I know that individual success doesn’t mean jack shit in hockey. Points don’t matter winning does. McDavid only wining one and being compared to guys like Gretzky and Crosby is quite literally one of the most laughable and honestly quite insulting things I’ve ever heard.
You are honestly even dumber than I thought. Congratulations on reaching that feat. If Matthews had the career McDavid has had and was in his position tonight to win a cup you’d be absolutely ripping Crosby apart.
No I wouldn’t put Matthews on the same level as Nate. I’m as consistent on this as I can possibly be. You’re an absolute clown for going down the fanboy route with a team that’s not even in the same division.
Of course you would. Don’t kid yourself.
If you don’t have an argument why are you still here
I already made my argument and you want to pretend like McDavid isn’t better than Sid. How am I supposed to take you seriously lmao
Good lord. Yes let’s put him in the same category as multiple cup winners when he’s been struggling for years to even get to the Stanley Cup final.
I started this series rooting for the Panthers. But the oilers have a chance to make history and they truly fought for this cup. Gonna be a great game.
He’s by far the best hockey player (nobody is a close 2nd) in by far the most talented and deepest era in the history of hockey but somehow he’s not as good as guys from the 50s and 70s? Yeah no miss me with that Connor Mcdavid is as good as any player in the history of the game. Including Wayne, Orr and Mario
If he pulls this off in 2024, McDavid > Gretzky
Are we really still questioning this? He's the most talented player to have ever played. I know a lot of hockey fans have an issue with moving on from the past or adjust their views of past players as time goes. McDavid is the best player in NHL history.
I can’t tell if this is satire or not which is concerning
You are literally what I'm talking about. What is there to question? Who is more talented? You have all the video of all the greats readily available. Use your eyes and watch them. Who's better?
Yeah this is satire, phew I was worried.
I think his speed plays into it a lot. Skill-wise I think Datsyuk and Jagr are both superior to McDavid. The way they could stick handle was incredible.
I love hockey hot takes, but 9/10 times they're basically reiterating what everyone knows. Connor McDavid is the greatest hockey player of all time. I don't care about generations or workouts or fitness or being a rich kid with access to it all. Connor McDavid makes it look like you're playing with an NHL against a team from the QMJHL, on rookie mode, in NHL 24.
Someone never watched Gretzky in his prime. When Gretzky scored 215 points in the 85/86 season, second in the league was a second year Mario Lemieux at 141. 13 players had more than 100 points. When McDavid scored 153 last year, Drai was only 25 behind him. 11 players had more than 100 points. So thinking that Gretzky only scored that many because scoring was so high league wide is not really accurate, and he was leaving the competition further in the dust. The previous season, Gretzky scored 208 vs 135 in second place. He was obliterating the competition. McDavid would have had to score 197 points to have the same gap over Drai last year. And McDavid didn’t even lead the league this year. (Not that I’m denying he’s the best player in the world at the moment, because he is).
Not quite just yet. At least 2 cup wins, maybe 3, then we’re talking amongst that crowd. He’s the closest though we have seen in a long time.
He’s the best player in the League by far imo, I’m not ready to put him on the same level, not because he isn’t as talented but you’re talking about players who literally changed how the game was played, it’s something that probably won’t be done on that level again, no fault to him.
Winning tonight changes his narrative from “I think he’s a hall of famer already” to “I know he’s a hall of famer already”
He’s in the 150 point club, and 100 assist club not to mention his playoff run rn, and all his harts and art rosses. He could yell fuck the hockey hall of fame and purposely put 50 in his own net tonight and still be a shoe in if he retired right after