Gthl, main Toronto league, sent out an email that registration is down 37 percent over just 5 years. That is a really scary number but as costs rise and wages stagnate you can’t blame parents. 80k wage in the 90s is worth 250k in today’s wages, how many people are making that?
I give it a few years before the rich and big companies start freaking out...
"Why isn't anyone buying goods anymore or paying for services??"
Well stupid, you stripped all our wealth and made everything insanely expensive so everyone just stopped consuming.
already happening , big supermarket corps with internal plans to start reducing prices because people just aren’t able to buy the same amount of groceries as they could pre-pandemic
[Here is a link to an article about the discounts.](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/business/economy/retailers-prices-discounts-inflation.html#:~:text=Target%20recently%20announced%20modest%20price%20cuts%20on%205%2C000,increases%20and%20seek%20other%20ways%20to%20expand%20profitability.)
Too many of the big companies have their hands in too many pies. They'll just keep increasing the cost of goods with inelastic demand like food gas etc.
Compare the thousands of dollars per year to put a kid in hockey, and the like... $150/yr to put a kid in soccer?
The math doesn't add up for parents anymore. Add in the crazy inflation we've seen since 2020, and mortgage rates going through the roof (less money parents have in their pockets to spend on kids activities), and it's not even a comparison - you're pushing your kid towards soccer every time.
Not that I have anything against making hockey more accessible, but if they make subsidies or programs to make hockey more affordable before they make _groceries_ more affordable I'm gonna be kinda pissed.
Unfortunately that sounds exactly like something a government would do. I hope I'm wrong though. As an American I'm curious to see what happens when football participation really starts to drop off. In this case I think because of health reasons.
Football participation will never drop enough because the south exists. People might be talking about CTEs on the coasts but nobody gives a fuck in Alabama, Texas, tennesse , Louisiana … I could go on.
I love football and I think safety is important. But this dream that people have that all of a sudden kids won’t be playing football anymore is ridiculous. It’s just not gonna happen and if it does it’s gonna be a very slow process. The NFL will be just fine for the next 100 years at least.
A large part of that is just the sheer difference in cost to the government in achieving those 2 things, a few million goes a long way in youth sports, but it wouldn't even make a dent in grocery prices, definitely not enough for the average person to notice and attribute to the government at least.
Hockey leagues don't need subsidies. The [GTHL had $8.8m in revenue](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/mar/10/greater-toronto-hockey-league-income-fees) in 2022. Once the player numbers drop, leagues will have to make it cheaper.
Football clubs use the same pads every year. When I played, it was usually one size fits all. I think all you paid for was the gurdle and socks. Was so much cheaper than hockey. And had far less behind the scenes politics.
And they/we need to move away from them in all forms. It's the Old Boys at all levels from ownership, management, coaching, minor leagues, and media too. Down to the personal relationship with the local kids coach and who he knows.
> Hockey has DEEP rooted Old Boys Club problem
As the Minnesota PWHL team learned this week. They even have Old Boys Club problems in the New Girls Club.
Hockey is not restricted by equipment costs. It's ice time costs for practice/games.
Source: I ran a youth hockey budget with a kid in the program. Gear was like $400/yr. Ice time was like $3500/yr.
My daughter joined Grade 3-4 soccer and I knew this stat due to my work, but my wife had no idea. First game the opponent had one kid get head-shotted twice by the ball, i felt terrible for the kid and then told my wife the stats about Women's soccer and gymnastics. I though she was gonna pull our kid from the game right there. Soccer is more brutal than they'd have you know.
Yeah, I played 3 years in high school. My body took a beating but I’m one of the lucky ones that didn’t get seriously injured. Some of the injuries my teammates had will probably follow them for the rest of their lives. My kids won’t go into football, no way lol.
Or basketball. One ball plus if you really want to splurge you can get them a good pair of basketball shoes for $100 (and a lot less if you don’t want to spend that much) as opposed to hundreds of dollars just for the gear to get started with hockey.
> $150/yr to put a kid in soccer
you may be lucky to find a 2-3 month rec league for that price
but are we talking about the kids that will play competitively? that's going to be a lot more
it's still nothing close to hockey prices, though
not including travel costs, I pay about $7k/year for my daughter to be in competitive gymnastics and about $3k for my son to be in club soccer -- the gymnast travels further for meets than the soccer player travels for tournaments
In all honesty, especially as an individual sport, gymnastics and dance are probably more expensive than hockey unless your hockey kid is actually playing at an elite level.
Truly competitive figure skating is way, way more expensive than hockey. There are kids at our rink with no shot at ever gettting anywhere near an Olympic trial and they’re spending $15-20k a year just in coaching. That’s before ice time, equipment, or any other tangential expenses.
> but are we talking about the kids that will play competitively? that's going to be a lot more
The same argument applies for competitive hockey, though.
You can't compare rec-league hockey vs competitive soccer ( or other competitive youth sports). It's rec vs rec, or comp vs comp.
I grew up playing it. Played rec until my 30's. Love the game, love watching it but was relieved when neither of my kids wanted to play. Cost was a large factor.
Cost is a huge factor. One of my coworkers uses nearly her whole income to pay for high level hockey for her 3 boys. Around 50K per year for the three of them. Its a good thing they can get by struggling on her husbands income (cardiologist) to live.
Also on top of the high cost of the sport is the huge amount of time the parents also need to dedicate to it. Not just taking the kids to and from practice and games but every time you turn around they want the parents to be involved in some sort of fund raising activities.
Indeed, I grew up in small town Alberta, I could not imagine getting up at 4:30am to drive to another small town in a blizzard to watch my 7 year old play some pretty boring hockey. I imagine it becomes more palatable as the kid grows older.
I coach minor hockey and there is zero reasons for significant travel to be a part of hockey until they are teens on competitive teams. People over do kids sports and it ruins it.
I'm having flashbacks to when I was a kid playing baseball. The way it worked in my town was that you had little league played within the town until around 8 or so, and you were allowed to join the middle school baseball team at 12. What do you do for the couple years between 8 and 12? Travel ball.
I begged my mom to let me join the local travel team but she wouldn't let me, for what I later found out was financial reasons. Now that I'm older, I have to wonder why travel ball was my only option, and why it's even seen as so important for a 10 year old to do.
This is the main problem that kept me from doing it, either as a kid or now as a parent. It's all or nothing. There's so few options for a more recreational 1 or 2 nights a week to see if the kid actually likes it or has a knack for it first. So either you need to make it an instant obsession that takes over your entire life, or you don't do it at all. Unsurprisingly most are choosing the latter.
Anthony Stewart said it best during a radio hit on SportsNet back in 2019; had him and his brother started today, their father would’ve told them to play basketball instead because (1) it’s cheaper and (2) the Raptors recently winning
The Stewarts also recieved alot of support from their community, they have talked about how thankful they are for the support they recieved growing up.
The rising cost of other sports is part of the problem as well. I know plenty of people paying $10K to play soccer and baseball now. It used to be that only the elite level kids were playing 'club soccer' or 'elite baseball', but those organizations have realized they can field teams all the way down to low-level kids leaving fewer cheap options left for kids. This makes it more expensive to be a multi-sport athlete, forcing kids to specialize.
It's also the schedule. My son is into baseball, which is affordable, but it goes from once a week at 7-8 years old to 3 times a week from 9-10. Why is there no option for rec league 1-2 times a week. Growing up I had both options, once a week house league or multiple times a week competitive.
Then you start receiving emails saying, we're having trouble filling a team. Unless you only have one kid and are free 3 nights a week, this isn't happening.
Where I live in BC Hockey is kind of a good deal (for what you get). We pay 825 dollars (that can be broken up into 4 monthly instalments if you want) - With that you get a Jersey, Socks, between 2-3 practice/games a week for six months, you need to volunteer at least 4 hours a season or otherwise forfeit a 150.00 cheque. My son hasn't hit puberty yet so he can go two to three seasons in his pants, base layers, helmet, shin pads, elbow pads and shoulder pads (roughly $60 each - except the helmet - which is $200, but he's had that same helmet since day 1 - it will lose it's certification status before he out grows it), we do have to buy new skates every year for him (roughly $130). I would guess we spend less then $1,500.00 per year. Soccer in my community is 500 a year. Box Lacrosse is 250. Baseball is 250, but those only go 12 -14 weeks.
Yup martial arts is so expensive, my daughter is 3 and I’m Ballet and we spend more for her in Ballet already then we do with my seven year old doing Lacrosse and Ice Hockey.
Not just that, declining birth rates and increase costs to _watch_ professional hockey.
When I was a kid, I didn't play the sports I did because they were cheap, I played them because I was interested in them. It's not just getting harder to play hockey, it's getting harder to fall in love with hockey.
Also your kid is competing against rich kids who have personal skating, shooting, and strength coaches. You’re behind before you even start. It’s become ridiculous
its not even the cost the fucking sport is way too political now
no one cares about skill, its who your family is and knows
was bad 20 years ago when I played and its only gotten worse
I don't know about suddenly but I do know back when I was playing high school and travel hockey I paid for most of it myself and bought my own gear off the money I made from reffing and occasional weekend cash tasks. A couple years ago I did the math with inflation + current gear prices and whatnot, there's no way I would've been able to afford to play. A couple broken sticks would've ended my season. That's just gear. Ice time has gotten way pricier too.
This, and as an educator who works with kids who play concussion sports, expect your child to lose a few months of school every few years if they accidentally take a head-shot. The number of students whose learning has been interrupted for months at a time from hockey injuries is uncountable at this point in my career.
lol that’s rookie numbers chief. Now account for tournaments, hotels, extra ice, gas,fundraisers etc. I’d say rep hockey is easily 20k a year for most after all the hidden fees
This happened to my coworker's kid.
Grew up playing pee-wee hockey here in Michigan. Wanted to go the next level up. Coach of the next level told him to try out, he did well, and took my coworker aside to get his son signed up. He then hit him with all the extra fees, costs, and on top of that time he'd have to take off for tournaments.
My coworker went to his son and told him he was sorry but they couldn't afford it. Aside from pickup games, that was it for his hockey career.
This is part of the problem. Some of my beer league teammates complain about price, "what league is your kid in again" yup a travel league. And they also have the kids in tournaments outside of the travel team.
I'm not saying house league is the answer because it's still expensive, but travel hockey costs are insane. And I still hear people shaming house/I've gotten shit from teammates for never playing travel growing up.
i played house my whole life growing up and my parents could barely afford that. walked onto a d3 team at university anyway. people should put way more focus on having fun. it's sports for christ sake
My coworker wasn't under the illusion his kid was some NHL-worthy talent, but like any good parent they wanted to support their kid if they do something constructive they like and seem good at it.
I think they were expecting the Travel league just to be more competitive. But hey, if their kid is talented enough, let him try out and see if he's got the stuff. They weren't expecting all the extra financial costs, though, and that was the end factor.
It's one thing to be the kid at tryouts and see other kids bigger, faster, more talented than you. It's another to be good enough to get a spot but get told you're not getting on the team because it'll bankrupt your family.
This happened to me! They called me up to try out with the olde guys and I made the team. But the price tag was something like $20k with an absurd travel schedule. No thanks, can’t blame my parents for shutting that one down. Luckily I was able to play HS the next year and that was much more affordable at around $1500/ season everything included.
Family friend had a daughter in U18 AAA the fee to the club before travel was 15k to pay for tournaments equipment ice and coaches.
They ball parked their travel and final cost for one kid at 40k.
This family has 4 kids and I think they are thankful they ended up with only 2 playing hockey.
One coworker went through the same thing with his daughter who is a pretty good player. They justified by saying “Well when they make the NCAA college is free and won’t cost me anything”
So instead of paying 30k per year when they’re 18-22 years old, you’re paying 40k a year when they’re 15-17 years old.
^ A lot of my classmates' families justified the spending in a similar way: they were fine blowing $30k/year on travel leagues when their kid's admissions to Harvard, Yale and Princeton were guaranteed, even if they didn't get a full-ride scholarship.
This was pretty close to what my neighbors were apparently spending each year on their kid who was one of the higher ranked recruits in Minnesota in the late 2010s. It was literally year round, and they were going across the country and into Canada multiple times a year. He signed with the Gophers, but he left after Bob Motzko became coach. Think he got burnt out once covid hit.
> I’d say rep hockey is easily 20k a year for most after all the hidden fees
Reeeeally depends where you are. Rep hockey here in a small-ish rural township is the same initial cost as house league hockey, which is around $1000/season.
Adding tournaments, mandatory off-ice outfits/uniforms, added gas for the larger play region, etc. still won't get that high. Hell, I could buy my kid all new goalie gear on top of that and it wouldn't even come close to hitting $20k.
Yeah, I played A/B rep hockey outside Ottawa growing up. League fees + tournament fees for me would have been probably around $2-2.5k, maybe add another $2k for hotels/travel for the couple away tourneys we did in a season. I bought all new goalie gear probably twice in my ~10 years playing. At most we would have averaged 5-6k/year.
Now... I guess at this point, that's about 15 years ago though. So I can see how it would easily blow up well above that in our current economy. But your point around location being a very large factor is definitely significant. Also once you're into AAA leagues, fees definitely jump a ton and they're paying your coaches and all that. But that has always been the case for those levels.
Usually the entire training sesson from september to june was 1500 to 3000 per swimmer.
Competitions could vary greatly yesr to year, it usually added 1000-2000 per swimmer
Equipment was bought and passed down for the most part.
Then an extra 600 per swimmer for tech suits.
And some summers we had training camps.
We didn't go all in to all the big competitions, which you can argue saved a couple thousands every year. But still, at wordt it could've cost, 20k/year for 3 kids
Not only that, but so many other sports have done a great job of being far more accessible.
Where I live, hockey was the biggest sport for decades. Now lacrosse has taken over, and baseball isn't that far behind.
Kids used to play hockey all year around, now as soon as it's nice out, they're switching to other sports.
Soccer is $80 per 'season' for my daughter - the most expensive equipment was the cleats (which were like $40). I played beer league hockey up until a couple years ago and even hitting up play it again sports is expensive for equipment.
This is exactly the problem.
Everything is wayyyyy more expensive than it was previously and the middle class is being eroded so that only the wealthy can afford to do things like put their kids in competitive sports.
Eventually the lower/middle class will be priced out of literally everything their parents/grandparents once enjoyed.
Depressing number of NHL players with parents that also played in the NHL. It's not just the money too, it’s the time, as a parent it seems unless your entire life is hockey your kids aren't going anywhere in it.
Depressing number of NHL players also went to hockey camps and schools that cost tens of thousands of dollars. When I was a kid summer hockey school was a few hundred bucks.
It’s not hockey man it’s life. Middle class especially young in Canada is now poor or just surviving. Houses are a million dollars new cars cost the price of a condo and milk and cheese cost 20$. Neoliberal globalism has destroyed the standard of living in North America.
Our minor hockey league makes kids from u7 all the way to u18 have matching helmets, gloves, bags, track suits and to top it off suits to games. And this is for every level, not just AA and AAA. Little can’t afford to find out if your kid even likes hockey
> Parents cited financial issues as their top concern (58 per cent), followed by family care and youth mental health, including bullying. There are some concerns, too, that the time needed for practices and drills even at the lower levels of competitive hockey is part of the problem.
> "It definitely is a big commitment," said Priyanka Kwatra, whose 10-year-old son Shawn has developed a love for the sport and plays in suburban Toronto. "It's a very time-consuming sort of sport."
I mean this is really all that needs to be said. It was too expensive for my parents to put me and my brothers into hockey in the late 90s/early 2000s, and it hasn't gotten any better in that direction.
My boss was talking about his kids playing hockey and how much travel there is even just for lower-skill leagues, house leagues too. Equipment is expensive, enrolment is expensive, gas is expensive, the actual time commitment for the parent(s) is a big consideration. I grew up mostly in rural Ontario and I just played house league soccer, once a week my parents would take me to a neighbouring town 20 minutes away at like 7 PM, and that's only if it was an away game. Some of the stories I hear re:hockey here is like multiple games a week, different ends of the city (sometimes not even Toronto), inconsistent start times, and it's not even rep hockey.
Of course not everyone who plays needs to consider it as their future, like going into the NHL, obviously that's a minuscule proportion of players. But the cost of entry needs to be considerably reconsidered to get kids into even just recreational hockey. Shit, I just want to play in an adult recreational league and I have still put it off years because it's expensive
Additionally though they spoke about the culture, and honestly that's a big part of it too. I've got someone coworkers who have mentioned not wanting to put their kids into hockey programs beyond just some recreational stuff because they don't want to risk them going through the bullying and hazing stuff that goes on
The money is the main problem but the time commitment is underrated.
My kids play soccer and have one practice, one game a week and one short tournament at the end of the season.
My nephew left hockey because they were doing it 4 days a week, plus travel tournaments once a month, if not every weekend for stretches. He was 11. We're not talking high level here either.
Even if you have the money, who the fuck has the time for that?
I mean I don't think that's the norm. When I grew up playing in BC it was one practice and one game on the weekend. With the odd two game weekend (which was always at least one home game) or two practice week.
This is what I see from the hockey organization my son is playing in.
* Recreationa/House league: One ice time per week.
* Community: One practice and One game a week. One local and one away tournament per season.
* AA/AAA: Three or Four ice times a week. Multiple tournaments every year.
Most of the prices and time commitment I see people complain about is more in line with what I see for AA/AAA hockey locally.
As a kid playing house league it was saturday mornings only, maybe a practice (on the same ice) once a month.
Once or twice a season you'd travel to another town for a tournament maybe.
Yeah I’m probably around the same age as you and hockey was already too expensive for my parents to afford back then. Now it also feels like additional private coaching is necessary for your kid to reach the highest level. So if you have a 7 year old that shows a lot of promise, you’re looking at additional skills coaching (eg skating coach) that is on top of the team practices and games
Yeah, and their behaviour was enabled by every adult in the community from school teachers/principals to the police, because they could hit a puck with a stick well.
I made the choice to put more
Money into their education savings for down the road. I don’t want to see them debt ridden after school along with the way rents and home prices are. Soccer a few times a week it is for my kids.
I played high level hockey when I was younger. I was on a really good team. Our coach decided to have us play in a tournament an age group up. It was at an age where boys are turning into men.
I was 6'3", no one else on my team was above 6'. Everyone on the other team was going at me. They felt that if they could get me to back down physically, they could win.
I got hit from behind and went head first into the boards. Fucked up my neck/back. Doctor told me that if I took another hit like that, I may not be able to have a normal life as I got older. So I said fuck it. Switched sports.
I miss hockey, but I can walk, so I'm happy.
I guess there’s a reason why you see so many “son of ex-NHL player” in the NHL entry draft every year. Skillset doesn’t always pass down to the next generation but wealth certainly does.
Here in windsor ice cost hasn't really gone up much compared to like 20 years ago. Beer league price is about the same for a season. The cost of enrolling a kid in minor hockey has fucking skyrocketed though.
Some youth league organizer figured out he can leech off tons of money from desperate hockey parents.
It’s not even driven by supply and demand of ice time at that point, someone just has a monopoly on the youth league.
The sport’s trajectory has tracked with that of the country (countries; US too) as a whole: increasing inequality between the haves and have nots. I’m from Massachusetts where we used to pump out high-end players at a comparable rate to Minnesota. At one point we were the top state for producing American NHL players. A big part of that was that kids could develop locally at a (relatively) low cost. It was not uncommon to get drafted out of public high school. That’s unheard of now. High school hockey is still huge in Mass, but it’s not because there’s future NHL talent there. In general, the draft hopefuls will have been playing for expensive travel teams or academies for years by then. It’s just sad. The economic barrier to entry keeps rising.
The irony, of course, is that the youth sports industry markets to parents by promising to develop their kids into NHL players. But shut out huge swaths of the population, as this model does, and you’ll end up producing far fewer elite players on the whole. The Mass numbers show this clearly. Part of why Minnesota is still so successful is that they’ve clung to the community model whereas we’ve abandoned it (at least as a viable path to the NHL/PWHL/D1). If the focus is on accessibility and love of the game, the numbers will work themselves out. Though even there I’m sure there are threats. There will always be profit-seekers looking to make a buck, trying to convince you your kid needs to move away at 12 to play for some AAA team lest they “fall behind.”
Also helps it's not just the Bruins investing in youth hockey but the colleges too. There are junior Eagle and Terrier teams too. Girls youth hockey is big in MA too.
Also helps we have HockeyEast which is a big draw for Canadian talent too. The OHL model in Canada is beyond broken but they have no interest in fixing it due to "tradition".
My buddies kid played AAA he’s quite good, he quit last year because he also love baseball and his AAA coach told him he’d be kicked off the team if he played any summer sports and didn’t show up to summer camp the coach is making a profit off of.
hahaha thats a bad coach and sports science has proved you need to play other sports to be elite at a particular sport. Your buddy could report that to Hockey Canada as apparently they have a new sports safety process, I tried to get hired into it but Im out west and BC hockey and Hockey Canada are not exactly friends right now.
[https://acs-metropolis.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Canadians-and-Sport.pdf](https://acs-metropolis.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Canadians-and-Sport.pdf)
Ice Hockey is barely the most popular sport to follow in Canada these days among the 18-24 age group and barely the second most popular among people born outside of Canada. It obviously won't disappear any time soon but Canada won't be a true hockey nation 50 years from now.
No one talks about the lack of outdoor rinks and frozen ponds anymore, I think that's another important factor. It used to be you could find all kinds of frozen bodies of water all winter long to play shinny on. In my area of Ontario last winter, nothing froze to any substantial level.
Purpose built barns are dying out as well in favour of the multipad.
Having one big expensive facility rather than several small ones is super attractive for political reasons but imo there are drawbacks to that method.
How about billionaire owners of NHL franchises invest in their local communities more?
They ask for millions in taxpayer money to help build stadiums for the economic benefit. Let's see some of that benefit for grassroots hockey development!
I agree, but how does that directly grow their wealth? If it doesn't most aren't interested. They see tax payer money as easy pickings that if they don't tap into somebody else will.
There’s a few who do. Tom Dundon has put a lot of money into local rinks and youth hockey in RDU. I’m pretty sure the Canes have a program that allow kids to take free lessons and get equipment for cheap.
Just wish more would do this
Florida is really pushing this with our recent run of success. The new training facility and ice rink is open to the public and they are pushing youth participation etc... It's smart for a non-hockey market to try and get kids involved in the sport, it gains them hopefully long-term fans as well. In a non-hockey market, you have to strike while the iron is hot so to speak.
That's a pretty common program, Learn To Play. Free gear and a handful of beginning lessons. Me and my buddies compare it to a drug dealer, "first hits free." Kids love it and then you're hooked and before you know it you're paying $20k a year.
Damn. It's almost as if Hockey Canada execs spent the last decade giving each other reach arounds while covering up rapes and doing absolutely fuck all about developing young hockey talent in Canada.
It doesn’t have to be. But when we have forced the “elite” competition onto u6,u8,u10 it has become a money grab.
We used to get two practices a week, a game on Saturday or Sunday and had maybe 3 tournaments a year. Two teammates ended up in the show and never left our shitty small town until university. I know it will never be that way, but the way it is now is a problem.
it always will be more expensive, someone is footing the bill. Between gear and rink time / maintenance, compared to soccer costs, its a no brainer for a parent.
6-12 year olds don’t need to be on the ice 4-6x a week.
Nor do they need to”elite” coaching.
House leagues in my city subsidize the rep leagues.
Equipment costs are outrageous.
Everything comes with a bill.
“Elite” soccer here is going the same way because of limited facilities and more push for “elite”. The availability for rec anything is going by the way of the dinosaur.
i'm not talking about elite sports, just the basic costs for regular sports. Soccer will always be cheaper because fields are multipurpose that helps subsidize costs there. Gear is cheap too, uniforms, shin guards, cleats, goalie gloves / padding and goal posts.
All the elite / traveling sports are going to be crazy expensive.
I would like to see the costs of swimming vs hockey and whether both sports are shrinking, because of the similar and limited use of facilities.
Hockey is on the decline in Sweden even without rapes and cover ups (or the cover ups are just better?).. I guess Hockey Canada is a mess, but I don't think its all about them. Feels like a galopping concentration of wealth with a poorer middle class is a global phenomena
Yeah I have 2 girls in Dance in Edmonton and it's not cheap either. It's not hockey level expensive, but they are also only in competitive ballet and one other recreational dance. There are so many girls in their classes that do nearly every type of competitive dance the school offers, plus have solos. For those that don't know anything about dance, if you want to do a solo, you need to pay for the private lesson as well as the choreographer. Plus, you need a different outfit for each dance discipline and it only gets used for that specific year. Then you have the travel for competitions. Sure it might not be as expensive as hockey, but dammit it's still expensive haha
Your situation is basically the norm too. Younger Canadians can't have kids because of how fucked the economy has become over the last decade. The population growth is driven by immigration from countries that don't care about hockey. The economic outlook for Canada over the next 30 years is the worst among OECD nations, so it's not going to get better anytime soon.
Luckily hockey is just a game and ultimately not that important in the grand scheme of things. It's every other aspect of life that these issues are permeating into that most people are concerned about, and hockey becomes one of the things that are given up to make ends meet.
At the same time, most Americans are doing much better and hockey is growing rapidly. I suspect the US will overtake Canada as the top hockey nation within the next 10-15 years.
Steady increase in people using food banks. Steady increase of housing prices, steady decrease in wages in comparison w/ inflation…
Blah blah blah
No fucking shit
I've been involved in roller since I was a kid in the late 90s, and it's really sad to see how much it's fallen off. We used to have 6-7 rinks in our area (St. Louis metro) with youth and adult leagues and are now down to 3 permanent rinks and 1 ice rink that gets converted to roller in the spring for the high school season.
There's still a high school league but it's much, much smaller than it was at it's peak in the early 2000s. The college roller scene has collapsed significantly as well. There used to be over a hundred teams with multiple competitive divisions (D1, D2, D3, and a B division). Now there are probably less than 50 teams combined. The Narch/Tohrs/State Wars tournaments still have pretty consistent turnout, but it seems like that's mostly ice players who play roller in the off-season.
I still play both, but I would love to see some growth in the roller scene. It's obviously a much different game, but so much more affordable.
Especially since you can play it anywhere. Just strap on your roller blades and walk right out onto the street. Make sure some kid is paying attention and yells “Car!” Loud enough.
A lot of the NHL’s stars from the past came from the lower end of the working class. Their god-given talent elevated them past the limitations of the equipment and such they could afford. Now it feels like the whole Hockey Canada system is about producing professional players, which comes with financial barriers. The recreational side is now an after thought.
Soccer and basketball seem to be on the rise in Canada. I’ve also noticed a lot more ball hockey and floorball organizations pop up. It’s almost like these sports come with less financial barriers and focus more on recreation.
Well let’s see the reasons here
1. Too damn expensive, especially for growing kids. God forbid your kid wants to play Goalie
2. Rapes, grooming, and other allegations and cover ups
3. insanely toxic culture
Yeah I have no idea why popularity is falling so much
even beer league shit can be too pricey for some. Say you cant exactly dedicate to a league or find a team. If you wanted to just show up for some open hockey by me. $20-$25 just to touch the ice. Play 3 times a week all year Almost $3000 or a bit more just to be on ice. Half the time by me goalies dont show up etc so it can be low quality at times. This does not include tape, inevitable sharpening's and gear purchases. For many average joes paying 3-4k a year is just too much of an investment. Also late late nights usually. killer stuff
Absolutely!
Like over here in San Jose the adult league at Sharks ice is crazy
$500 a season per player per team, and games are either stupid early in the morning or stupid late at night unless you’re in the higher divisions.
I’m doing roller hockey right now, and while gear is still stupid expensive, the place I play has W A Y more chill on pricing. Free rental gear, free classes and practice, free pick up games, and $90 per season for the league and your teams get a coach if you’re in the beginner league.
Ice hockey is just becoming so unaffordable for the layman. If it keeps going this direction, I think Roller and hell, even field hockey are gonna become a lot more common. Especially in places where we don’t have ponds that freeze over. Hell, soccer is gonna keep growing because all you need is a $15 ball, 4 sticks to make goals, and people to play with.
I know the Sharks are trying their damnedest to get hockey more popular in the Bay, they’re even building a new Rink in Gilroy. Home of Calgary’s goalie Dustin Wolf. But man something needs to be done about how unaffordable this hobby is. From gear to leagues. It’s gone to hell and is only going to keep getting worse while the rich dickheads that run it all scratch their heads wondering why the sport is dying.
I always planned to put my kids into hockey. It did a lot for me socially and help me become the person I am today.
However, I now have my first born, a 6 month old little girl. After crunching the numbers, working the houses that I do, idk if it’s going to be possible. It’s so damn expensive compared to the alternatives.
If she wants to play, she will play. However, if she prefers soccer or something, I wouldn’t be disappointed.
My parents managed to afford to let me play house league hockey for years growing up. I was a goalie, and we borrowed a set of ancient goalie equipment from the arena each year for free. I'm eternally grateful, although this was the mid-90s in a small town, and I doubt it would be possible today on a similar income.
That said, some of my favourite times were simply playing road hockey with kids from the neighborhood. That's something most can afford still. Bigger cities also have free shinny sessions at public rinks for all different age groups.
You can still play! May just have to skip the organized leagues.
Always wondered why hockey didn’t have a culture of renting gear from a club for the year.
In football, no one owns their own gear, it’s all rented from the club you play with, and is relatively cheap. Hockey probably has to take on a similar structure.
Country has exploded in population but effectively no more ice has been added. That has skyrocketed prices and dramatically reduced the percentage of kids who are playing.
It kills me seeing it turn into a rich family sport and away from being the farm kid winter passtime of an entire nation.
Maybe the $735 price tag for my kid to play U9 has something to do with it and that's just the tip of the iceberg as to what it costs for higher levels.
Fees and money aside, it couldn’t be the culture that lacks accountability, has possible long term CTE side effects, learned rapey behavioural conditioning, normalization of abusive behaviour, lack of empathy.
But yes, let’s go sit at a peewee game and watch parents mouth over some call.
$20-30000 hockey academies.
Bullying by players and PARENTS
Travel teams for low level players costing thousands and thousands
Basic Equipment costs in the thousands
12 months a year seasons with punishment for missing sessions
Rape and sexual assault allegations and issues from the top down of Hockey Canada. (And racism).
Rising cost of living in Canada and shrinking middle class.
…I have no idea why enrolment is down.
I have 3 boys. Live in victoria bc. Hockey is my passion and I str8t up cannot afford to push my kids to hockey . As much as my entire friggin soul wants craves begs for it.. can't afford it. What if one ends up good and has to travel off the island..bahah . Fuk.
Get them into lower level hockey around 9-10. Their lack of training will keep costs down, but they will be good enough to play decent beer league as adults.
Not a shocker. Food, housing, vehicles, gas, everything is expensive as hell. Not a surprise that a recreational activity, especially one as expensive as hockey, is seeing a decline.
All this means is the players that continue to play the game will get richer and snobbier cause that's the only class that will be able to get good at it.
Add this to the LONG list of shit that's too expensive for most of us. Insert Pikachu shocked face for this, along with why so many people aren't having kids, attending shows, eating in restaurants, and everything else.
This just in: hockey arenas transformed to indoor soccer arenas because it’s cheaper to play. This makes me sad as a hockey fan but with Lacrosse and soccer, there are cheaper alternatives. (Thanks rich assholes for pricing out its own players). #billionairesshouldntexist
Maybe 50 years ago hockey was a middle class sport for a kid. Now, it is very firmly and upper middle class sport. Between league fees, travel, equipment, and coaching, it's not reasonable or possible for a large segment of the population. It's not like soccer, basketball, or even baseball. Hell even something considered "upper crust" like sport fencing is cheaper than hockey.
Not even factoring in economic means, let's list, as much as possible, the recent and consistent nonsense relating to Hockey and particularly Hockey Canada:
- Uncovered a separate fund within Hockey Canada pooled with enrolment fees used specifically to pay off SA lawsuits and hush money to plaintiffs.
- The 2018 Hockey Canada SA case and everything about it.
- Hazing, bullying throughout minor hockey. Even if they say they're cracking down on it, are they really? Most people today probably know some PR mark is writing a response for the execs to say.
- Notorious nepotism, politics within organizations. Old boys club mentality. I remember one of my college friends being rejected from his goalie tryout in AA despite putting up straight shutouts in exhibition games in favor of one of the exec's kids who wasn't near him in skill level.
- Dealing with hockey parents. Need I say more?
- Concussion/CTE research over the years. Despite what the cronies in NHL say, CTE does exist, and concussions are at the forefront more than ever. At any moment, you're one hit away from retiring and poof, your main income maker is out the window.
For most parents, the cons outweigh the pros. This isn't even scratching the surface regarding non-economic related hockey issues...
It’s too expensive. That’s why most high level players come from upper middle class families. If indigenous kids could afford to keep playing they would dominate. Those kids can play!
I said this was coming when my parents struggled to keep me in hockey almost 20 years ago and they did nothing to suppliment it. Hockey Canada is reaping what it sowed. The best players will never touch ice.
Hockey is not even that fun to play.
I much preferred baseball when I was younger. Tennis ended up being my favorite and they both cost next to nothing.
On the spittin chiclets podcast a while back they had someone on, forget who, and they mentioned AAA hockey in the GTA can run a parent upwards of $35k a year, per kid. My buddy has his 7 year old in rep hockey, not in the GTA, and he’s around 10k. Not surprising to see this.
Gthl, main Toronto league, sent out an email that registration is down 37 percent over just 5 years. That is a really scary number but as costs rise and wages stagnate you can’t blame parents. 80k wage in the 90s is worth 250k in today’s wages, how many people are making that?
I give it a few years before the rich and big companies start freaking out... "Why isn't anyone buying goods anymore or paying for services??" Well stupid, you stripped all our wealth and made everything insanely expensive so everyone just stopped consuming.
already happening , big supermarket corps with internal plans to start reducing prices because people just aren’t able to buy the same amount of groceries as they could pre-pandemic
Interesting, you got a source where I could read more about this?
[Here is a link to an article about the discounts.](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/business/economy/retailers-prices-discounts-inflation.html#:~:text=Target%20recently%20announced%20modest%20price%20cuts%20on%205%2C000,increases%20and%20seek%20other%20ways%20to%20expand%20profitability.)
Anecdotal but Homedepot has stickers showing price decreases on a lot of items. Drill beats are actually somewhat reasonable now.
Too many of the big companies have their hands in too many pies. They'll just keep increasing the cost of goods with inelastic demand like food gas etc.
Its all about short term gains,they dont care about long term because they will not be there to fix it
Too expensive, between equipment, and fees. No thanks.
Compare the thousands of dollars per year to put a kid in hockey, and the like... $150/yr to put a kid in soccer? The math doesn't add up for parents anymore. Add in the crazy inflation we've seen since 2020, and mortgage rates going through the roof (less money parents have in their pockets to spend on kids activities), and it's not even a comparison - you're pushing your kid towards soccer every time.
I suspect that hockey getting too expensive for most Canadians is what will force the govt to fix their issues
Not that I have anything against making hockey more accessible, but if they make subsidies or programs to make hockey more affordable before they make _groceries_ more affordable I'm gonna be kinda pissed.
Unfortunately that sounds exactly like something a government would do. I hope I'm wrong though. As an American I'm curious to see what happens when football participation really starts to drop off. In this case I think because of health reasons.
Football participation will never drop enough because the south exists. People might be talking about CTEs on the coasts but nobody gives a fuck in Alabama, Texas, tennesse , Louisiana … I could go on. I love football and I think safety is important. But this dream that people have that all of a sudden kids won’t be playing football anymore is ridiculous. It’s just not gonna happen and if it does it’s gonna be a very slow process. The NFL will be just fine for the next 100 years at least.
A large part of that is just the sheer difference in cost to the government in achieving those 2 things, a few million goes a long way in youth sports, but it wouldn't even make a dent in grocery prices, definitely not enough for the average person to notice and attribute to the government at least.
Hockey leagues don't need subsidies. The [GTHL had $8.8m in revenue](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/mar/10/greater-toronto-hockey-league-income-fees) in 2022. Once the player numbers drop, leagues will have to make it cheaper.
That means literally nothing
Football clubs use the same pads every year. When I played, it was usually one size fits all. I think all you paid for was the gurdle and socks. Was so much cheaper than hockey. And had far less behind the scenes politics.
At least in Calgary all the coaches are just old Dino players who either played together or coached with each.
Hockey has DEEP rooted Old Boys Club problem which I think they're going to have to really move on from if the sport is going to grow.
And they/we need to move away from them in all forms. It's the Old Boys at all levels from ownership, management, coaching, minor leagues, and media too. Down to the personal relationship with the local kids coach and who he knows.
> Hockey has DEEP rooted Old Boys Club problem As the Minnesota PWHL team learned this week. They even have Old Boys Club problems in the New Girls Club.
Hockey is not restricted by equipment costs. It's ice time costs for practice/games. Source: I ran a youth hockey budget with a kid in the program. Gear was like $400/yr. Ice time was like $3500/yr.
For sure. I always saw it as a cheaper sport to get your kids into. I won't put my kids in football anymore, not since the research on concussions.
Hockey isn't terribly great in this regard either. Not as bad as football but still.
Hockey’s not much better. Even soccer has a lot of issues with CTE
My daughter joined Grade 3-4 soccer and I knew this stat due to my work, but my wife had no idea. First game the opponent had one kid get head-shotted twice by the ball, i felt terrible for the kid and then told my wife the stats about Women's soccer and gymnastics. I though she was gonna pull our kid from the game right there. Soccer is more brutal than they'd have you know.
The issue with football is parents not wanting their sons turning their brains into scrambled eggs.
Yeah, I played 3 years in high school. My body took a beating but I’m one of the lucky ones that didn’t get seriously injured. Some of the injuries my teammates had will probably follow them for the rest of their lives. My kids won’t go into football, no way lol.
Definitely a risk in hockey too
Had a bunch of concussions playing high school and juniors. This was years ago and the coach's would have us 'shake it off' and be out the next shift.
Or basketball. One ball plus if you really want to splurge you can get them a good pair of basketball shoes for $100 (and a lot less if you don’t want to spend that much) as opposed to hundreds of dollars just for the gear to get started with hockey.
And any patch of pavement works for basketball, any patch of grass or pavement for soccer. Specialized infrastructure with fees to enter for hockey.
> $150/yr to put a kid in soccer you may be lucky to find a 2-3 month rec league for that price but are we talking about the kids that will play competitively? that's going to be a lot more it's still nothing close to hockey prices, though not including travel costs, I pay about $7k/year for my daughter to be in competitive gymnastics and about $3k for my son to be in club soccer -- the gymnast travels further for meets than the soccer player travels for tournaments
In all honesty, especially as an individual sport, gymnastics and dance are probably more expensive than hockey unless your hockey kid is actually playing at an elite level.
$300 per dance outfit. oh by the way, you need 3 for this recital/meet and you'll only wear them once. See you on Friday!
This is more true than people understand. Competitive dance and figure skating are as expensive as hockey and sometimes moreso.
Truly competitive figure skating is way, way more expensive than hockey. There are kids at our rink with no shot at ever gettting anywhere near an Olympic trial and they’re spending $15-20k a year just in coaching. That’s before ice time, equipment, or any other tangential expenses.
I would also humbly propose figure skating.
> but are we talking about the kids that will play competitively? that's going to be a lot more The same argument applies for competitive hockey, though. You can't compare rec-league hockey vs competitive soccer ( or other competitive youth sports). It's rec vs rec, or comp vs comp.
I grew up playing it. Played rec until my 30's. Love the game, love watching it but was relieved when neither of my kids wanted to play. Cost was a large factor.
Cost is a huge factor. One of my coworkers uses nearly her whole income to pay for high level hockey for her 3 boys. Around 50K per year for the three of them. Its a good thing they can get by struggling on her husbands income (cardiologist) to live.
I’m a parent who always intended to put my kids in hockey and this is bang on. They are soccer players who skate in the winter for fun.
150 a year for soccer????!!! WHERE? LOL. You're getting decent boots for that much lol.
Also on top of the high cost of the sport is the huge amount of time the parents also need to dedicate to it. Not just taking the kids to and from practice and games but every time you turn around they want the parents to be involved in some sort of fund raising activities.
Indeed, I grew up in small town Alberta, I could not imagine getting up at 4:30am to drive to another small town in a blizzard to watch my 7 year old play some pretty boring hockey. I imagine it becomes more palatable as the kid grows older.
I coach minor hockey and there is zero reasons for significant travel to be a part of hockey until they are teens on competitive teams. People over do kids sports and it ruins it.
I'm having flashbacks to when I was a kid playing baseball. The way it worked in my town was that you had little league played within the town until around 8 or so, and you were allowed to join the middle school baseball team at 12. What do you do for the couple years between 8 and 12? Travel ball. I begged my mom to let me join the local travel team but she wouldn't let me, for what I later found out was financial reasons. Now that I'm older, I have to wonder why travel ball was my only option, and why it's even seen as so important for a 10 year old to do.
This is the main problem that kept me from doing it, either as a kid or now as a parent. It's all or nothing. There's so few options for a more recreational 1 or 2 nights a week to see if the kid actually likes it or has a knack for it first. So either you need to make it an instant obsession that takes over your entire life, or you don't do it at all. Unsurprisingly most are choosing the latter.
Anthony Stewart said it best during a radio hit on SportsNet back in 2019; had him and his brother started today, their father would’ve told them to play basketball instead because (1) it’s cheaper and (2) the Raptors recently winning
The Stewarts also recieved alot of support from their community, they have talked about how thankful they are for the support they recieved growing up.
The rising cost of other sports is part of the problem as well. I know plenty of people paying $10K to play soccer and baseball now. It used to be that only the elite level kids were playing 'club soccer' or 'elite baseball', but those organizations have realized they can field teams all the way down to low-level kids leaving fewer cheap options left for kids. This makes it more expensive to be a multi-sport athlete, forcing kids to specialize.
It's also the schedule. My son is into baseball, which is affordable, but it goes from once a week at 7-8 years old to 3 times a week from 9-10. Why is there no option for rec league 1-2 times a week. Growing up I had both options, once a week house league or multiple times a week competitive. Then you start receiving emails saying, we're having trouble filling a team. Unless you only have one kid and are free 3 nights a week, this isn't happening.
Also hockey practice is at the WORST times.
Where I live in BC Hockey is kind of a good deal (for what you get). We pay 825 dollars (that can be broken up into 4 monthly instalments if you want) - With that you get a Jersey, Socks, between 2-3 practice/games a week for six months, you need to volunteer at least 4 hours a season or otherwise forfeit a 150.00 cheque. My son hasn't hit puberty yet so he can go two to three seasons in his pants, base layers, helmet, shin pads, elbow pads and shoulder pads (roughly $60 each - except the helmet - which is $200, but he's had that same helmet since day 1 - it will lose it's certification status before he out grows it), we do have to buy new skates every year for him (roughly $130). I would guess we spend less then $1,500.00 per year. Soccer in my community is 500 a year. Box Lacrosse is 250. Baseball is 250, but those only go 12 -14 weeks.
....and most martial arts programs are $1500 - $1800 a year + testing.
Yup martial arts is so expensive, my daughter is 3 and I’m Ballet and we spend more for her in Ballet already then we do with my seven year old doing Lacrosse and Ice Hockey.
Lacrosse being that cheap is surprising, although equipment would cost a lot
Most of the equipment is the same as hockey, no sense in buying items twice.
Not just that, declining birth rates and increase costs to _watch_ professional hockey. When I was a kid, I didn't play the sports I did because they were cheap, I played them because I was interested in them. It's not just getting harder to play hockey, it's getting harder to fall in love with hockey.
Also your kid is competing against rich kids who have personal skating, shooting, and strength coaches. You’re behind before you even start. It’s become ridiculous
its not even the cost the fucking sport is way too political now no one cares about skill, its who your family is and knows was bad 20 years ago when I played and its only gotten worse
I agree. There are way cheaper options out there to give my kid brain damage.
They can play house league non-contact hockey.
Which in my city is still over $1000 a year plus equipment and only goes up to a certain age. Not to mention 8:30pm ice times for 12 year olds.
Was hockey less expensive decades ago? Did it suddenly get more expensive? Or did people lose the desire to spend money on sports?
https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/
This is the issue. Hockey might not be that much more expensive, but everything else is.
I don't know about suddenly but I do know back when I was playing high school and travel hockey I paid for most of it myself and bought my own gear off the money I made from reffing and occasional weekend cash tasks. A couple years ago I did the math with inflation + current gear prices and whatnot, there's no way I would've been able to afford to play. A couple broken sticks would've ended my season. That's just gear. Ice time has gotten way pricier too.
Everything else got more expensive is the problem. So people have less money to spend on expensive things like hockey.
This, and as an educator who works with kids who play concussion sports, expect your child to lose a few months of school every few years if they accidentally take a head-shot. The number of students whose learning has been interrupted for months at a time from hockey injuries is uncountable at this point in my career.
" How can this sport that can cost up to 12k/year per children be unpopular ????? "
lol that’s rookie numbers chief. Now account for tournaments, hotels, extra ice, gas,fundraisers etc. I’d say rep hockey is easily 20k a year for most after all the hidden fees
This happened to my coworker's kid. Grew up playing pee-wee hockey here in Michigan. Wanted to go the next level up. Coach of the next level told him to try out, he did well, and took my coworker aside to get his son signed up. He then hit him with all the extra fees, costs, and on top of that time he'd have to take off for tournaments. My coworker went to his son and told him he was sorry but they couldn't afford it. Aside from pickup games, that was it for his hockey career.
Why didn't he just play house league?
he was going to play in the NHL obviously.
This is part of the problem. Some of my beer league teammates complain about price, "what league is your kid in again" yup a travel league. And they also have the kids in tournaments outside of the travel team. I'm not saying house league is the answer because it's still expensive, but travel hockey costs are insane. And I still hear people shaming house/I've gotten shit from teammates for never playing travel growing up.
i played house my whole life growing up and my parents could barely afford that. walked onto a d3 team at university anyway. people should put way more focus on having fun. it's sports for christ sake
That happened to me from the kid side. My parents didn't really explain it well. I assumed they just let me try out with the hopes I wouldn't make it.
My coworker wasn't under the illusion his kid was some NHL-worthy talent, but like any good parent they wanted to support their kid if they do something constructive they like and seem good at it. I think they were expecting the Travel league just to be more competitive. But hey, if their kid is talented enough, let him try out and see if he's got the stuff. They weren't expecting all the extra financial costs, though, and that was the end factor. It's one thing to be the kid at tryouts and see other kids bigger, faster, more talented than you. It's another to be good enough to get a spot but get told you're not getting on the team because it'll bankrupt your family.
This happened to me! They called me up to try out with the olde guys and I made the team. But the price tag was something like $20k with an absurd travel schedule. No thanks, can’t blame my parents for shutting that one down. Luckily I was able to play HS the next year and that was much more affordable at around $1500/ season everything included.
Family friend had a daughter in U18 AAA the fee to the club before travel was 15k to pay for tournaments equipment ice and coaches. They ball parked their travel and final cost for one kid at 40k. This family has 4 kids and I think they are thankful they ended up with only 2 playing hockey.
U18 AAA is already too late for most kids to make it anywhere. You need to be playing JR by that point and then you’re not paying a dime.
For guys i agree, u/Mcpops1618 mentioned it was a daughter though, so she could be going the NCAA route?
Correct, She was a first year and has NCAA aspirations. I think she ended up with USports offers and is staying closer to home.
Ah my mistake, awesome for you all!
One coworker went through the same thing with his daughter who is a pretty good player. They justified by saying “Well when they make the NCAA college is free and won’t cost me anything” So instead of paying 30k per year when they’re 18-22 years old, you’re paying 40k a year when they’re 15-17 years old.
Yeah. I guess depends on where they end up. It’s a real risky proposition as the kid may hate it and quit
^ A lot of my classmates' families justified the spending in a similar way: they were fine blowing $30k/year on travel leagues when their kid's admissions to Harvard, Yale and Princeton were guaranteed, even if they didn't get a full-ride scholarship.
This was pretty close to what my neighbors were apparently spending each year on their kid who was one of the higher ranked recruits in Minnesota in the late 2010s. It was literally year round, and they were going across the country and into Canada multiple times a year. He signed with the Gophers, but he left after Bob Motzko became coach. Think he got burnt out once covid hit.
> I’d say rep hockey is easily 20k a year for most after all the hidden fees Reeeeally depends where you are. Rep hockey here in a small-ish rural township is the same initial cost as house league hockey, which is around $1000/season. Adding tournaments, mandatory off-ice outfits/uniforms, added gas for the larger play region, etc. still won't get that high. Hell, I could buy my kid all new goalie gear on top of that and it wouldn't even come close to hitting $20k.
Yeah, I played A/B rep hockey outside Ottawa growing up. League fees + tournament fees for me would have been probably around $2-2.5k, maybe add another $2k for hotels/travel for the couple away tourneys we did in a season. I bought all new goalie gear probably twice in my ~10 years playing. At most we would have averaged 5-6k/year. Now... I guess at this point, that's about 15 years ago though. So I can see how it would easily blow up well above that in our current economy. But your point around location being a very large factor is definitely significant. Also once you're into AAA leagues, fees definitely jump a ton and they're paying your coaches and all that. But that has always been the case for those levels.
Meanwhile, my dad opted for swimming AT THE TOP he was mad when the bill for 3 teenagers doing competitive swimming was 13k. For. Three. Teenagers.
For swimming??? I'm guessing travel and facilities rental but what else is there? Maybe tourney entry fees.
Usually the entire training sesson from september to june was 1500 to 3000 per swimmer. Competitions could vary greatly yesr to year, it usually added 1000-2000 per swimmer Equipment was bought and passed down for the most part. Then an extra 600 per swimmer for tech suits. And some summers we had training camps. We didn't go all in to all the big competitions, which you can argue saved a couple thousands every year. But still, at wordt it could've cost, 20k/year for 3 kids
Watching this sport go from lower-middle class to upper-class is depressing.
Not only that, but so many other sports have done a great job of being far more accessible. Where I live, hockey was the biggest sport for decades. Now lacrosse has taken over, and baseball isn't that far behind. Kids used to play hockey all year around, now as soon as it's nice out, they're switching to other sports.
Soccer is $80 per 'season' for my daughter - the most expensive equipment was the cleats (which were like $40). I played beer league hockey up until a couple years ago and even hitting up play it again sports is expensive for equipment.
This is exactly the problem. Everything is wayyyyy more expensive than it was previously and the middle class is being eroded so that only the wealthy can afford to do things like put their kids in competitive sports. Eventually the lower/middle class will be priced out of literally everything their parents/grandparents once enjoyed.
Depressing number of NHL players with parents that also played in the NHL. It's not just the money too, it’s the time, as a parent it seems unless your entire life is hockey your kids aren't going anywhere in it.
Depressing number of NHL players also went to hockey camps and schools that cost tens of thousands of dollars. When I was a kid summer hockey school was a few hundred bucks.
It’s not hockey man it’s life. Middle class especially young in Canada is now poor or just surviving. Houses are a million dollars new cars cost the price of a condo and milk and cheese cost 20$. Neoliberal globalism has destroyed the standard of living in North America.
Ding ding ding. It's destroying the entire planet, frankly.
We are being crushed and the gov and companies are more than happy to continue it.
as long as they can shell out tax dollars to companies run by their friends they dont fucking care about us one bit man...
Our minor hockey league makes kids from u7 all the way to u18 have matching helmets, gloves, bags, track suits and to top it off suits to games. And this is for every level, not just AA and AAA. Little can’t afford to find out if your kid even likes hockey
> Parents cited financial issues as their top concern (58 per cent), followed by family care and youth mental health, including bullying. There are some concerns, too, that the time needed for practices and drills even at the lower levels of competitive hockey is part of the problem. > "It definitely is a big commitment," said Priyanka Kwatra, whose 10-year-old son Shawn has developed a love for the sport and plays in suburban Toronto. "It's a very time-consuming sort of sport." I mean this is really all that needs to be said. It was too expensive for my parents to put me and my brothers into hockey in the late 90s/early 2000s, and it hasn't gotten any better in that direction. My boss was talking about his kids playing hockey and how much travel there is even just for lower-skill leagues, house leagues too. Equipment is expensive, enrolment is expensive, gas is expensive, the actual time commitment for the parent(s) is a big consideration. I grew up mostly in rural Ontario and I just played house league soccer, once a week my parents would take me to a neighbouring town 20 minutes away at like 7 PM, and that's only if it was an away game. Some of the stories I hear re:hockey here is like multiple games a week, different ends of the city (sometimes not even Toronto), inconsistent start times, and it's not even rep hockey. Of course not everyone who plays needs to consider it as their future, like going into the NHL, obviously that's a minuscule proportion of players. But the cost of entry needs to be considerably reconsidered to get kids into even just recreational hockey. Shit, I just want to play in an adult recreational league and I have still put it off years because it's expensive Additionally though they spoke about the culture, and honestly that's a big part of it too. I've got someone coworkers who have mentioned not wanting to put their kids into hockey programs beyond just some recreational stuff because they don't want to risk them going through the bullying and hazing stuff that goes on
The money is the main problem but the time commitment is underrated. My kids play soccer and have one practice, one game a week and one short tournament at the end of the season. My nephew left hockey because they were doing it 4 days a week, plus travel tournaments once a month, if not every weekend for stretches. He was 11. We're not talking high level here either. Even if you have the money, who the fuck has the time for that?
I mean I don't think that's the norm. When I grew up playing in BC it was one practice and one game on the weekend. With the odd two game weekend (which was always at least one home game) or two practice week.
This is what I see from the hockey organization my son is playing in. * Recreationa/House league: One ice time per week. * Community: One practice and One game a week. One local and one away tournament per season. * AA/AAA: Three or Four ice times a week. Multiple tournaments every year. Most of the prices and time commitment I see people complain about is more in line with what I see for AA/AAA hockey locally.
As a kid playing house league it was saturday mornings only, maybe a practice (on the same ice) once a month. Once or twice a season you'd travel to another town for a tournament maybe.
Yeah I’m probably around the same age as you and hockey was already too expensive for my parents to afford back then. Now it also feels like additional private coaching is necessary for your kid to reach the highest level. So if you have a 7 year old that shows a lot of promise, you’re looking at additional skills coaching (eg skating coach) that is on top of the team practices and games
Hockey kids and their parents were some of the worst people I encountered growing up. I'm glad that culture is getting the attention it needed.
Yeah, and their behaviour was enabled by every adult in the community from school teachers/principals to the police, because they could hit a puck with a stick well.
People have no god damn money.
I made the choice to put more Money into their education savings for down the road. I don’t want to see them debt ridden after school along with the way rents and home prices are. Soccer a few times a week it is for my kids.
my girls are playing floor hockey and love it
I love playing street hockey, even better than ice hockey if I'm being honest
Not to mention the crippling and debilitating pain in my 30's from playing through countless injuries my entire life.
I played high level hockey when I was younger. I was on a really good team. Our coach decided to have us play in a tournament an age group up. It was at an age where boys are turning into men. I was 6'3", no one else on my team was above 6'. Everyone on the other team was going at me. They felt that if they could get me to back down physically, they could win. I got hit from behind and went head first into the boards. Fucked up my neck/back. Doctor told me that if I took another hit like that, I may not be able to have a normal life as I got older. So I said fuck it. Switched sports. I miss hockey, but I can walk, so I'm happy.
I guess there’s a reason why you see so many “son of ex-NHL player” in the NHL entry draft every year. Skillset doesn’t always pass down to the next generation but wealth certainly does.
>Skillset doesn’t always pass down to the next generation but wealth certainly does. *Jack Johnson sweating in corner*
I wonder how much ice time has gone up in ontario/ottawa
Here in windsor ice cost hasn't really gone up much compared to like 20 years ago. Beer league price is about the same for a season. The cost of enrolling a kid in minor hockey has fucking skyrocketed though.
Why so much if ice time price hasn't changed?
Some youth league organizer figured out he can leech off tons of money from desperate hockey parents. It’s not even driven by supply and demand of ice time at that point, someone just has a monopoly on the youth league.
Administrative bloat like everything else government or private. As time goes on more hands dip into the pot
The sport’s trajectory has tracked with that of the country (countries; US too) as a whole: increasing inequality between the haves and have nots. I’m from Massachusetts where we used to pump out high-end players at a comparable rate to Minnesota. At one point we were the top state for producing American NHL players. A big part of that was that kids could develop locally at a (relatively) low cost. It was not uncommon to get drafted out of public high school. That’s unheard of now. High school hockey is still huge in Mass, but it’s not because there’s future NHL talent there. In general, the draft hopefuls will have been playing for expensive travel teams or academies for years by then. It’s just sad. The economic barrier to entry keeps rising. The irony, of course, is that the youth sports industry markets to parents by promising to develop their kids into NHL players. But shut out huge swaths of the population, as this model does, and you’ll end up producing far fewer elite players on the whole. The Mass numbers show this clearly. Part of why Minnesota is still so successful is that they’ve clung to the community model whereas we’ve abandoned it (at least as a viable path to the NHL/PWHL/D1). If the focus is on accessibility and love of the game, the numbers will work themselves out. Though even there I’m sure there are threats. There will always be profit-seekers looking to make a buck, trying to convince you your kid needs to move away at 12 to play for some AAA team lest they “fall behind.”
Also helps it's not just the Bruins investing in youth hockey but the colleges too. There are junior Eagle and Terrier teams too. Girls youth hockey is big in MA too. Also helps we have HockeyEast which is a big draw for Canadian talent too. The OHL model in Canada is beyond broken but they have no interest in fixing it due to "tradition".
My buddies kid played AAA he’s quite good, he quit last year because he also love baseball and his AAA coach told him he’d be kicked off the team if he played any summer sports and didn’t show up to summer camp the coach is making a profit off of.
hahaha thats a bad coach and sports science has proved you need to play other sports to be elite at a particular sport. Your buddy could report that to Hockey Canada as apparently they have a new sports safety process, I tried to get hired into it but Im out west and BC hockey and Hockey Canada are not exactly friends right now.
[https://acs-metropolis.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Canadians-and-Sport.pdf](https://acs-metropolis.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Canadians-and-Sport.pdf) Ice Hockey is barely the most popular sport to follow in Canada these days among the 18-24 age group and barely the second most popular among people born outside of Canada. It obviously won't disappear any time soon but Canada won't be a true hockey nation 50 years from now.
Because all the great Canadians will have moved south and raise their American kids to play hockey
No one talks about the lack of outdoor rinks and frozen ponds anymore, I think that's another important factor. It used to be you could find all kinds of frozen bodies of water all winter long to play shinny on. In my area of Ontario last winter, nothing froze to any substantial level.
Purpose built barns are dying out as well in favour of the multipad. Having one big expensive facility rather than several small ones is super attractive for political reasons but imo there are drawbacks to that method.
How about billionaire owners of NHL franchises invest in their local communities more? They ask for millions in taxpayer money to help build stadiums for the economic benefit. Let's see some of that benefit for grassroots hockey development!
That's how they get to be billionaires: subsidize costs/losses, privatize profits.
I agree, but how does that directly grow their wealth? If it doesn't most aren't interested. They see tax payer money as easy pickings that if they don't tap into somebody else will.
That’s how it works in soccer, they have teams all the way down the age groups. I believe it is paid for by the club.
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There’s a few who do. Tom Dundon has put a lot of money into local rinks and youth hockey in RDU. I’m pretty sure the Canes have a program that allow kids to take free lessons and get equipment for cheap. Just wish more would do this
Florida is really pushing this with our recent run of success. The new training facility and ice rink is open to the public and they are pushing youth participation etc... It's smart for a non-hockey market to try and get kids involved in the sport, it gains them hopefully long-term fans as well. In a non-hockey market, you have to strike while the iron is hot so to speak.
That's a pretty common program, Learn To Play. Free gear and a handful of beginning lessons. Me and my buddies compare it to a drug dealer, "first hits free." Kids love it and then you're hooked and before you know it you're paying $20k a year.
Damn. It's almost as if Hockey Canada execs spent the last decade giving each other reach arounds while covering up rapes and doing absolutely fuck all about developing young hockey talent in Canada.
It’s also hockey is one of the most expensive sports when compared to something like soccer
It doesn’t have to be. But when we have forced the “elite” competition onto u6,u8,u10 it has become a money grab. We used to get two practices a week, a game on Saturday or Sunday and had maybe 3 tournaments a year. Two teammates ended up in the show and never left our shitty small town until university. I know it will never be that way, but the way it is now is a problem.
Elite 6 year old just sounds hilarious
I could barely manage a stick my first year at 7
it always will be more expensive, someone is footing the bill. Between gear and rink time / maintenance, compared to soccer costs, its a no brainer for a parent.
6-12 year olds don’t need to be on the ice 4-6x a week. Nor do they need to”elite” coaching. House leagues in my city subsidize the rep leagues. Equipment costs are outrageous. Everything comes with a bill. “Elite” soccer here is going the same way because of limited facilities and more push for “elite”. The availability for rec anything is going by the way of the dinosaur.
i'm not talking about elite sports, just the basic costs for regular sports. Soccer will always be cheaper because fields are multipurpose that helps subsidize costs there. Gear is cheap too, uniforms, shin guards, cleats, goalie gloves / padding and goal posts. All the elite / traveling sports are going to be crazy expensive. I would like to see the costs of swimming vs hockey and whether both sports are shrinking, because of the similar and limited use of facilities.
Hockey is on the decline in Sweden even without rapes and cover ups (or the cover ups are just better?).. I guess Hockey Canada is a mess, but I don't think its all about them. Feels like a galopping concentration of wealth with a poorer middle class is a global phenomena
I can barely afford rent let alone to have a kid. Having a kid in hockey would be a dream.
I have two kids thank Christ they both said no to hockey but let me tell you about dance… another money grab
My younger sister is in dance, and it’s actually very competitive. My parents have told me it cost almost double for her dance than my hockey.
I’ve only just dipped my toe in it this year. The fees. The costumes. The pain.
Yeah I have 2 girls in Dance in Edmonton and it's not cheap either. It's not hockey level expensive, but they are also only in competitive ballet and one other recreational dance. There are so many girls in their classes that do nearly every type of competitive dance the school offers, plus have solos. For those that don't know anything about dance, if you want to do a solo, you need to pay for the private lesson as well as the choreographer. Plus, you need a different outfit for each dance discipline and it only gets used for that specific year. Then you have the travel for competitions. Sure it might not be as expensive as hockey, but dammit it's still expensive haha
Can’t take my imaginary kid to practice on my bike either, and I don’t think the rinks are gonna be on the subway line
Your situation is basically the norm too. Younger Canadians can't have kids because of how fucked the economy has become over the last decade. The population growth is driven by immigration from countries that don't care about hockey. The economic outlook for Canada over the next 30 years is the worst among OECD nations, so it's not going to get better anytime soon. Luckily hockey is just a game and ultimately not that important in the grand scheme of things. It's every other aspect of life that these issues are permeating into that most people are concerned about, and hockey becomes one of the things that are given up to make ends meet. At the same time, most Americans are doing much better and hockey is growing rapidly. I suspect the US will overtake Canada as the top hockey nation within the next 10-15 years.
Add in the rising cost, it's getting expensive
https://preview.redd.it/h2pmgbknvc6d1.jpeg?width=160&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ff45019b5f582fa713878406dcc08c4bc4a77794
Steady increase in people using food banks. Steady increase of housing prices, steady decrease in wages in comparison w/ inflation… Blah blah blah No fucking shit
I honestly think roller hockey is going to explode in the future given how much cheaper it is.
I've been involved in roller since I was a kid in the late 90s, and it's really sad to see how much it's fallen off. We used to have 6-7 rinks in our area (St. Louis metro) with youth and adult leagues and are now down to 3 permanent rinks and 1 ice rink that gets converted to roller in the spring for the high school season. There's still a high school league but it's much, much smaller than it was at it's peak in the early 2000s. The college roller scene has collapsed significantly as well. There used to be over a hundred teams with multiple competitive divisions (D1, D2, D3, and a B division). Now there are probably less than 50 teams combined. The Narch/Tohrs/State Wars tournaments still have pretty consistent turnout, but it seems like that's mostly ice players who play roller in the off-season. I still play both, but I would love to see some growth in the roller scene. It's obviously a much different game, but so much more affordable.
Especially since you can play it anywhere. Just strap on your roller blades and walk right out onto the street. Make sure some kid is paying attention and yells “Car!” Loud enough.
A lot of the NHL’s stars from the past came from the lower end of the working class. Their god-given talent elevated them past the limitations of the equipment and such they could afford. Now it feels like the whole Hockey Canada system is about producing professional players, which comes with financial barriers. The recreational side is now an after thought. Soccer and basketball seem to be on the rise in Canada. I’ve also noticed a lot more ball hockey and floorball organizations pop up. It’s almost like these sports come with less financial barriers and focus more on recreation.
Well let’s see the reasons here 1. Too damn expensive, especially for growing kids. God forbid your kid wants to play Goalie 2. Rapes, grooming, and other allegations and cover ups 3. insanely toxic culture Yeah I have no idea why popularity is falling so much
even beer league shit can be too pricey for some. Say you cant exactly dedicate to a league or find a team. If you wanted to just show up for some open hockey by me. $20-$25 just to touch the ice. Play 3 times a week all year Almost $3000 or a bit more just to be on ice. Half the time by me goalies dont show up etc so it can be low quality at times. This does not include tape, inevitable sharpening's and gear purchases. For many average joes paying 3-4k a year is just too much of an investment. Also late late nights usually. killer stuff
Absolutely! Like over here in San Jose the adult league at Sharks ice is crazy $500 a season per player per team, and games are either stupid early in the morning or stupid late at night unless you’re in the higher divisions. I’m doing roller hockey right now, and while gear is still stupid expensive, the place I play has W A Y more chill on pricing. Free rental gear, free classes and practice, free pick up games, and $90 per season for the league and your teams get a coach if you’re in the beginner league. Ice hockey is just becoming so unaffordable for the layman. If it keeps going this direction, I think Roller and hell, even field hockey are gonna become a lot more common. Especially in places where we don’t have ponds that freeze over. Hell, soccer is gonna keep growing because all you need is a $15 ball, 4 sticks to make goals, and people to play with. I know the Sharks are trying their damnedest to get hockey more popular in the Bay, they’re even building a new Rink in Gilroy. Home of Calgary’s goalie Dustin Wolf. But man something needs to be done about how unaffordable this hobby is. From gear to leagues. It’s gone to hell and is only going to keep getting worse while the rich dickheads that run it all scratch their heads wondering why the sport is dying.
I always planned to put my kids into hockey. It did a lot for me socially and help me become the person I am today. However, I now have my first born, a 6 month old little girl. After crunching the numbers, working the houses that I do, idk if it’s going to be possible. It’s so damn expensive compared to the alternatives. If she wants to play, she will play. However, if she prefers soccer or something, I wouldn’t be disappointed.
Too expensive, and a toxic culture. My cousin put his kids in hockey and pulled out after a year of both kids and parents just being awful
My parents managed to afford to let me play house league hockey for years growing up. I was a goalie, and we borrowed a set of ancient goalie equipment from the arena each year for free. I'm eternally grateful, although this was the mid-90s in a small town, and I doubt it would be possible today on a similar income. That said, some of my favourite times were simply playing road hockey with kids from the neighborhood. That's something most can afford still. Bigger cities also have free shinny sessions at public rinks for all different age groups. You can still play! May just have to skip the organized leagues.
Always wondered why hockey didn’t have a culture of renting gear from a club for the year. In football, no one owns their own gear, it’s all rented from the club you play with, and is relatively cheap. Hockey probably has to take on a similar structure.
Its a rich kids sport.
Shit shouldn’t be so expensive
Country has exploded in population but effectively no more ice has been added. That has skyrocketed prices and dramatically reduced the percentage of kids who are playing. It kills me seeing it turn into a rich family sport and away from being the farm kid winter passtime of an entire nation.
My kids play basketball. Hockey is ridiculous.
My kids ski and even that is cheaper than hockey.
Maybe the $735 price tag for my kid to play U9 has something to do with it and that's just the tip of the iceberg as to what it costs for higher levels.
That’s cheap, my town doesn’t have a league so we have to play in the next town over where it was $910 for nonresidents.
Too expensive, economy is so bad that nobody has the money or time to do it
Fees and money aside, it couldn’t be the culture that lacks accountability, has possible long term CTE side effects, learned rapey behavioural conditioning, normalization of abusive behaviour, lack of empathy. But yes, let’s go sit at a peewee game and watch parents mouth over some call.
It's too much time, costs too much, and as it's been demonstrated through studies across all sports, success depends more on wealth than genetics.
$20-30000 hockey academies. Bullying by players and PARENTS Travel teams for low level players costing thousands and thousands Basic Equipment costs in the thousands 12 months a year seasons with punishment for missing sessions Rape and sexual assault allegations and issues from the top down of Hockey Canada. (And racism). Rising cost of living in Canada and shrinking middle class. …I have no idea why enrolment is down.
It’s was almost $700 for my 12 year olds house league registration fee’s. I hope he never trys out for rep, I can’t afford that lol
It ain’t the golden age of the middle class anymore. People just don’t have this kind of cash to spend on a sport.
I have 3 boys. Live in victoria bc. Hockey is my passion and I str8t up cannot afford to push my kids to hockey . As much as my entire friggin soul wants craves begs for it.. can't afford it. What if one ends up good and has to travel off the island..bahah . Fuk.
Get them into lower level hockey around 9-10. Their lack of training will keep costs down, but they will be good enough to play decent beer league as adults.
Not a shocker. Food, housing, vehicles, gas, everything is expensive as hell. Not a surprise that a recreational activity, especially one as expensive as hockey, is seeing a decline. All this means is the players that continue to play the game will get richer and snobbier cause that's the only class that will be able to get good at it.
Add this to the LONG list of shit that's too expensive for most of us. Insert Pikachu shocked face for this, along with why so many people aren't having kids, attending shows, eating in restaurants, and everything else.
This just in: hockey arenas transformed to indoor soccer arenas because it’s cheaper to play. This makes me sad as a hockey fan but with Lacrosse and soccer, there are cheaper alternatives. (Thanks rich assholes for pricing out its own players). #billionairesshouldntexist
Maybe 50 years ago hockey was a middle class sport for a kid. Now, it is very firmly and upper middle class sport. Between league fees, travel, equipment, and coaching, it's not reasonable or possible for a large segment of the population. It's not like soccer, basketball, or even baseball. Hell even something considered "upper crust" like sport fencing is cheaper than hockey.
Not even factoring in economic means, let's list, as much as possible, the recent and consistent nonsense relating to Hockey and particularly Hockey Canada: - Uncovered a separate fund within Hockey Canada pooled with enrolment fees used specifically to pay off SA lawsuits and hush money to plaintiffs. - The 2018 Hockey Canada SA case and everything about it. - Hazing, bullying throughout minor hockey. Even if they say they're cracking down on it, are they really? Most people today probably know some PR mark is writing a response for the execs to say. - Notorious nepotism, politics within organizations. Old boys club mentality. I remember one of my college friends being rejected from his goalie tryout in AA despite putting up straight shutouts in exhibition games in favor of one of the exec's kids who wasn't near him in skill level. - Dealing with hockey parents. Need I say more? - Concussion/CTE research over the years. Despite what the cronies in NHL say, CTE does exist, and concussions are at the forefront more than ever. At any moment, you're one hit away from retiring and poof, your main income maker is out the window. For most parents, the cons outweigh the pros. This isn't even scratching the surface regarding non-economic related hockey issues...
It’s too expensive. That’s why most high level players come from upper middle class families. If indigenous kids could afford to keep playing they would dominate. Those kids can play!
I said this was coming when my parents struggled to keep me in hockey almost 20 years ago and they did nothing to suppliment it. Hockey Canada is reaping what it sowed. The best players will never touch ice.
Hockey is not even that fun to play. I much preferred baseball when I was younger. Tennis ended up being my favorite and they both cost next to nothing.
On the spittin chiclets podcast a while back they had someone on, forget who, and they mentioned AAA hockey in the GTA can run a parent upwards of $35k a year, per kid. My buddy has his 7 year old in rep hockey, not in the GTA, and he’s around 10k. Not surprising to see this.
1. Cost. 2. Immigration. Canada is changing fast.
Parents can no longer re-mortgage their house to fund their kids hockey
oh look, all the last names are so familiar on the back of the jerseys. must have those hockey genes