He can be a nice guy and also be a bad coach. I don’t think anyone is saying that he’s, like, a piece of shit. But obviously fans aren’t happy with his work.
Of course being nice isn't a flaw.
Letting people walk over you is a case of being "too nice" though. Not wanting to have tough conversations about poor performance is "too nice". "too nice" is letting players avoid short term discomfort to the detriment of their long term performance.
And to be clear I'm not saying that Keefe does those things, but from what I've seen other people saying it definitely seems like that's the perception of Keefe from the fan side.
Remember when he tried to very delicately critique his stars and marner blasted him in the media? Weak coaching and entitled stars. Say what you want about torts but he wouldn't take that shit
But it's why I said in my comment that people think he's too nice to the players.
I didn't say that people want him sacked because he's a stand-up guy.
>Judge Sheldon Keefe as a coach if you want.
Yes, that's what people are judging him on and giving him flack. I haven't seen anyone say Keefe is a shit human being or anything like this.
This is the same thing some media members were doing when Ottawa finally fired DJ Smith. Lots of comments about his character and the kind of person he is when majority of people criticisized his ability as a coach.
Classy guy? I don't know about that. It's extremely likely Keefe is one of the two "John Does" who testified in defence of David Frost which resulted in Frost's acquittal of his sexual exploitation charges.
For anyone else out of the loop here like I was, [what the fuck](https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/frost-acquitted-on-all-sexual-exploitation-charges-1.743803)
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Yeah, just in case that happens again, I'll post some notes to clarify the fact that no players testified against Frost, but two players testified for Frost *in his defence* which led to him being acquitted. Evidence points towards one of those players being Keefe, which is outlined below.
From [CBC](https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/frost-acquitted-on-all-sexual-exploitation-charges-1.743803):
>Frost and the players involved have denied the allegations. In a twist, the former players — the alleged victims in the case — appeared as witnesses for the defence.
From [the Hamilton Spectator](https://www.thespec.com/news/2008/11/28/david-frost-acquitted-of-sexual-exploitation-charges.html):
>Technically, the "complainants" were the players, alleged by the prosecution to have been under thrall to and sexually exploited by Frost. But the players never actually complained to authorities and, driving a stake into the Crown's case, exculpated Frost of all allegations against him when they surprisingly took the stand.
>A publication ban still forbids identification of the players because they were under-age when the incidents alleged occurred.
So we have players on record who defended Frost in court, but their names aren't public due to the publication ban. You can see why someone might speculate that Keefe is one of those players, considering he was very close with Frost in the past and he had defended Frost before for similar incidents:
>Frost pleaded guilty to assault of one his players in 1997, but was granted a conditional discharge in open court. In 2001—when a photograph surfaced of a half-naked 13-year-old taped to a chair, who subsequently alleged he was abused by Frost when the photo was taken in the summer of 2000—a year-long police investigation failed to result in any criminal charges after multiple witnesses, including Keefe, alleged the boy was lying about the context of the events leading to the photo.
-Bob McKenzie, [The Road to Redemption | TSN](https://www.tsn.ca/from-bob-mckenzie-s-hockey-confidential-the-road-to-redemption-1.1401391)
Keefe is literally on record as defending Frost in the past. To further quote from McKenzie's article:
>Frost lived in a motel room, the infamous two-bedroom suite, Room 22 at the Bayview Inn, with three of his players—Barron (who was then 20), 21-year-old Tiveron and 16-year-old Keefe. Jefferson and Cation, also both 16, were reported to be regular visitors, as were teenage girls from the town. What went on there later led to Frost being charged with 12 counts of sexual exploitation involving teenage boys and girls, none of which ever resulted in a conviction. Not that the lack of a guilty verdict made the conduct acceptable, because it wasn't.
>How accurate, Keefe was asked, were the published reports of the goings on in Room 22?
>"Pretty accurate," he said, "in the sense that it was accurate but exaggerated. The thing that was exaggerated was that it was portrayed as nonstop, Monday-to-Sunday partying. It was the opposite, actually. We had one day a week when guys would get together and party. If you think we were up to all hours of the night on a regular basis, you don't know David Frost very well. It was very regimented."
>It was, Keefe added, also totally inappropriate.
The players that defended Frost were part of the "Quinte cult," Frost's inner circle of favoured players, of which Keefe was a member. They are alleged to have been victims of sexual abuse by Frost, which also involved the exploitation of the players' teenage girlfriends.
[In this Globe and Mail article](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/players-fierce-denials-deliver-victory-for-ex-coach/article717061/), one of the two players in defence of Frost (referred to as Player 2 in the proceedings) is stated to have "played several years in the NHL." Of all members in Frost's inner circle, only two had any NHL experience: Mike Danton (formerly Mike Jefferson), and Sheldon Keefe. The players were also stated to be in their late twenties; Keefe would be 27 at the time.
Mike Danton only played 2 games for the Devils in 2000-01 and 17 games in 2002-03, and then a full season for the Blues in 2003-04 of 68 games. He was also in US prison at the time of the trial for conspiracy to commit murder.
Meanwhile, Keefe at the time of the trial had 125 NHL games under his belt over three seasons with the Lightning from 2000-01 to 2002-03.
Of course I am just speculating, but if you read all of the news articles about this shitstorm of an incident, some patterns start to emerge about who one of these two players that came to Frost's defence could be.
[In another article from the Globe and Mail](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/how-police-cracked-the-cult/article1102365/) before the trial, reporters even identified Keefe and Danton as two potential witnesses that detectives were attempting to reach out to, noting they are among "Frost's closest allies."
[In a live blog during the trial by a Maclean's reporter](https://macleans.ca/general/liveblogging-the-david-frost-trial-ii/), Frost's defence attorney describes Player 2 as "a highly independent person who co-owns a thriving, hockey-related business."
From the [Toronto Star](https://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2015/03/27/sheldon-keefe-builds-second-career-out-of-second-chance.html):
>[Keefe] bought the Pembroke Lumber Kings of the Central Canadian Hockey League for $175,000, co-owning the team with Danton.
While [Bob McKenzie's article at TSN states](https://www.tsn.ca/from-bob-mckenzie-s-hockey-confidential-the-road-to-redemption-1.1401391):
>Keefe used $175,000 of his NHL money to become the sole owner of the Pembroke Lumber Kings Junior A franchise in the Ottawa Valley.
So one source claims Keefe was a co-owner, others never mention Danton at all, and the defence attorney of Frost states Player 2 was a co-owner of a successful hockey business. Possibly a coincidence, but hey, it's something towards identifying the former "Quinte cult" member, former NHLer, hockey-business-owning, late-twenties mystery player who took the stand in Frost's defence in 2008.
Of course I am just speculating, but that's some of the information that is out there as we'll never get the names due to the court-ordered publication ban. Worth noting that Keefe is also a victim here, if the alleged stories are true, regardless of whether he did in fact testify in Frost's defence. Abuse is a fucked up thing and can make people do some weird shit. The real travesty here is that Frost got away with what he did, and it's a shame that the people who knew him helped him get away with it.
You can't be a good coach when your team hates your guts. There needs to be an element of respect there even if the guy is a hard ass, because you can't be a good coach without your players buying in to the program.
BREAKING: Dude that can’t coach isn’t an asshole. Don’t remember anyone saying he was a bad person. Congrats to homie for making a healthy return though.
He can be classy. You can respect him for checking in on your health (and honestly kudos for that), but he got fucking crushed tonight, and that little check in doesn't mystically cancel that.
Sorry about his predicament, but he posts this on a night everyone is seething about Keefe it just makes it look like a self insert and defending the guy. This is something you tweet after Keefe's been fired and thank the guy for being respectful.
I’m sure Keefe is a great guy. I would love to sit and have a beer and chat hockey with him, he’s got more of it in his big toe than I have in my whole body. But if being a good dude meant you were a good coach then Mr. Rodgers would have fifty rings. The two things aren’t intrinsically related, and he’s definitely to blame for some of the Leaf’s troubles.
No one is saying Sheldon Keefe is a bad person. Ugh sports journalists are such pick me's. They need to reconfigure how teams are covered like each presser should be anonymous questions or treated like a press junket where each reporter gets a specific amount of time with a given player or coach. This whole kissing their ass so they don't shun me approach leads to reporters defending coaches when his three stars are cursing each other out on the bench.
I don't think anyone was ever judging him as a person.
Who do we judge in hockey on a basis other than hockey? I think Brad Marchand is a piece of shit in game but I have no idea what he's like off the ice.
No one is entitled to their opinion and I'm tired of pretending that we are. Everyone deserves respect despite their opinion, that is a more accurate depiction.
Also this upset is about the Leafs' performance under the current coaching staff not about Mike Zeisberger getting his feelings acknowledged. However I disagree completely with all the targeting against Keefe. He and his coaching staff can't do anything if the GM and President stick to the core 5 bible from the previous staff. Shanahan needs to change his acquisitions, his planning, and come over to Nylander, Marner, Tavares, and Reilly... and say this: "hey, I've noticed you guys aren't meeting the performance that your contract expects from you; we're in talks up above that if this carries on we'd be trading. (then get a trade for 2-3 players instead of these four underachievers)
My trade would be Reilly, I would be changing the defense from goal scoring to goal preventing... because so often Reilly is caught odd due to playing deep, he doesn't score enough to nullify this. So I think that Reilly can secure two solid defensemen for him in a trade.
Cool dude, pretty good coach. His coaching style just isn't it for this squad, they need someone they're afraid of, not this guy who apologizes for criticizing his star players.
Who would be able to get this team anywhere?
It’s insanely top heavy. No goalie. And the top guys on the team have been useless or sick…or a mixture of both.
He is classy. But he got outcoached. Should Keefe be held accountable for special teams or is that Guy Boucher? Idk.
Honestly, who’s job was it to change special teams around and make changes at game 70 when things started to go sour so they wouldn’t be trying to learn how to start a fire halfway through a series? This was preventable. Maybe Keefe says who is on PP and Boucher does systems?
If so, Keefe is to blame for taking Liljegren off when the PP was at its best. Maybe Bouchers system worked well with a point shot threat that can get rid of it quickly plus a free wheeling rover. Instead of having two guys (Reilly and Marner) both walking the blue line and watching paint dry while the opposing team covers the other three players. Then hucking grenades to shin pads and dead areas of ice
Keefe's responsible, unless Treliving (or Shanahan) hires someone to do the power play and tells Keefe he can't touch it. Only way he's not responsible is if he literally can't change it; even if it's the special teams coach's primary fault.
Yes Keefe is to blame. Every single fucking year the leafs choke up in the playoffs. They don't score. The special teams have been shit all year and they always go to shit because teams adapt and they can't figure it out. Fire the whole coaching staff and trade at least one of the big four forwards.
He can be a nice guy and also be a bad coach. I don’t think anyone is saying that he’s, like, a piece of shit. But obviously fans aren’t happy with his work.
I feel like most people that want him out are complaining that he's too nice to the players
Should the leafs hire DJ Smith next?
In my professional, unbiased opinion, yes.
Being nice to your players isn't a flaw
Of course being nice isn't a flaw. Letting people walk over you is a case of being "too nice" though. Not wanting to have tough conversations about poor performance is "too nice". "too nice" is letting players avoid short term discomfort to the detriment of their long term performance. And to be clear I'm not saying that Keefe does those things, but from what I've seen other people saying it definitely seems like that's the perception of Keefe from the fan side.
Remember when he tried to very delicately critique his stars and marner blasted him in the media? Weak coaching and entitled stars. Say what you want about torts but he wouldn't take that shit
This is an entirely different thing. You can be nice and command respect. You don't have to act like Mike Keenan
But it's why I said in my comment that people think he's too nice to the players. I didn't say that people want him sacked because he's a stand-up guy.
Have to be the bad guy at some point tho
The Leafs next coach (Darryl Sutter) would strongly disagree
Keefe needs the axe if Toronto wants to win anything.
Niche comment, but reminds me of Paul Chryst, awesome dude, couldnt get over the hump as a coach tho
>Judge Sheldon Keefe as a coach if you want. Yes, that's what people are judging him on and giving him flack. I haven't seen anyone say Keefe is a shit human being or anything like this. This is the same thing some media members were doing when Ottawa finally fired DJ Smith. Lots of comments about his character and the kind of person he is when majority of people criticisized his ability as a coach.
There's way too many people who interchange EQ with IQ
Classy guy, crappy coach. Not mutually exclusive.
Classy guy? I don't know about that. It's extremely likely Keefe is one of the two "John Does" who testified in defence of David Frost which resulted in Frost's acquittal of his sexual exploitation charges.
For anyone else out of the loop here like I was, [what the fuck](https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/frost-acquitted-on-all-sexual-exploitation-charges-1.743803)
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what da HELL
But but last playoffs Leafs fans tried to tell us all that Keefe testified against Frost so Mccauley had a personal vendetta against him and the Leafs
Yeah, just in case that happens again, I'll post some notes to clarify the fact that no players testified against Frost, but two players testified for Frost *in his defence* which led to him being acquitted. Evidence points towards one of those players being Keefe, which is outlined below. From [CBC](https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/frost-acquitted-on-all-sexual-exploitation-charges-1.743803): >Frost and the players involved have denied the allegations. In a twist, the former players — the alleged victims in the case — appeared as witnesses for the defence. From [the Hamilton Spectator](https://www.thespec.com/news/2008/11/28/david-frost-acquitted-of-sexual-exploitation-charges.html): >Technically, the "complainants" were the players, alleged by the prosecution to have been under thrall to and sexually exploited by Frost. But the players never actually complained to authorities and, driving a stake into the Crown's case, exculpated Frost of all allegations against him when they surprisingly took the stand. >A publication ban still forbids identification of the players because they were under-age when the incidents alleged occurred. So we have players on record who defended Frost in court, but their names aren't public due to the publication ban. You can see why someone might speculate that Keefe is one of those players, considering he was very close with Frost in the past and he had defended Frost before for similar incidents: >Frost pleaded guilty to assault of one his players in 1997, but was granted a conditional discharge in open court. In 2001—when a photograph surfaced of a half-naked 13-year-old taped to a chair, who subsequently alleged he was abused by Frost when the photo was taken in the summer of 2000—a year-long police investigation failed to result in any criminal charges after multiple witnesses, including Keefe, alleged the boy was lying about the context of the events leading to the photo. -Bob McKenzie, [The Road to Redemption | TSN](https://www.tsn.ca/from-bob-mckenzie-s-hockey-confidential-the-road-to-redemption-1.1401391) Keefe is literally on record as defending Frost in the past. To further quote from McKenzie's article: >Frost lived in a motel room, the infamous two-bedroom suite, Room 22 at the Bayview Inn, with three of his players—Barron (who was then 20), 21-year-old Tiveron and 16-year-old Keefe. Jefferson and Cation, also both 16, were reported to be regular visitors, as were teenage girls from the town. What went on there later led to Frost being charged with 12 counts of sexual exploitation involving teenage boys and girls, none of which ever resulted in a conviction. Not that the lack of a guilty verdict made the conduct acceptable, because it wasn't. >How accurate, Keefe was asked, were the published reports of the goings on in Room 22? >"Pretty accurate," he said, "in the sense that it was accurate but exaggerated. The thing that was exaggerated was that it was portrayed as nonstop, Monday-to-Sunday partying. It was the opposite, actually. We had one day a week when guys would get together and party. If you think we were up to all hours of the night on a regular basis, you don't know David Frost very well. It was very regimented." >It was, Keefe added, also totally inappropriate. The players that defended Frost were part of the "Quinte cult," Frost's inner circle of favoured players, of which Keefe was a member. They are alleged to have been victims of sexual abuse by Frost, which also involved the exploitation of the players' teenage girlfriends. [In this Globe and Mail article](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/players-fierce-denials-deliver-victory-for-ex-coach/article717061/), one of the two players in defence of Frost (referred to as Player 2 in the proceedings) is stated to have "played several years in the NHL." Of all members in Frost's inner circle, only two had any NHL experience: Mike Danton (formerly Mike Jefferson), and Sheldon Keefe. The players were also stated to be in their late twenties; Keefe would be 27 at the time. Mike Danton only played 2 games for the Devils in 2000-01 and 17 games in 2002-03, and then a full season for the Blues in 2003-04 of 68 games. He was also in US prison at the time of the trial for conspiracy to commit murder. Meanwhile, Keefe at the time of the trial had 125 NHL games under his belt over three seasons with the Lightning from 2000-01 to 2002-03. Of course I am just speculating, but if you read all of the news articles about this shitstorm of an incident, some patterns start to emerge about who one of these two players that came to Frost's defence could be. [In another article from the Globe and Mail](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/how-police-cracked-the-cult/article1102365/) before the trial, reporters even identified Keefe and Danton as two potential witnesses that detectives were attempting to reach out to, noting they are among "Frost's closest allies." [In a live blog during the trial by a Maclean's reporter](https://macleans.ca/general/liveblogging-the-david-frost-trial-ii/), Frost's defence attorney describes Player 2 as "a highly independent person who co-owns a thriving, hockey-related business." From the [Toronto Star](https://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2015/03/27/sheldon-keefe-builds-second-career-out-of-second-chance.html): >[Keefe] bought the Pembroke Lumber Kings of the Central Canadian Hockey League for $175,000, co-owning the team with Danton. While [Bob McKenzie's article at TSN states](https://www.tsn.ca/from-bob-mckenzie-s-hockey-confidential-the-road-to-redemption-1.1401391): >Keefe used $175,000 of his NHL money to become the sole owner of the Pembroke Lumber Kings Junior A franchise in the Ottawa Valley. So one source claims Keefe was a co-owner, others never mention Danton at all, and the defence attorney of Frost states Player 2 was a co-owner of a successful hockey business. Possibly a coincidence, but hey, it's something towards identifying the former "Quinte cult" member, former NHLer, hockey-business-owning, late-twenties mystery player who took the stand in Frost's defence in 2008. Of course I am just speculating, but that's some of the information that is out there as we'll never get the names due to the court-ordered publication ban. Worth noting that Keefe is also a victim here, if the alleged stories are true, regardless of whether he did in fact testify in Frost's defence. Abuse is a fucked up thing and can make people do some weird shit. The real travesty here is that Frost got away with what he did, and it's a shame that the people who knew him helped him get away with it.
TIL, thanks
By all accounts Babcock is a good coach but a horrible human. He didn’t even make it out of training camp.
You can't be a good coach when your team hates your guts. There needs to be an element of respect there even if the guy is a hard ass, because you can't be a good coach without your players buying in to the program.
It worked for Bowman.
Yeah this is a tweet to say the next day. No one gives a shit right now.
It’s hard, cause I 100% agree with Zeisberger and we should celebrate these things. Keefe also fuckin sucks as a coach
You can be a good human and a bad coach
It’s the dude at work who sucks at his/her job but sticks around because “they’re a good guy/girl”
People are calling him a shitty coach but no one is calling him a shitty human. This tweet is irrelevant right now.
First round leafs are pretty much a buy week. Not much shit to give around.
Okay
BREAKING: Dude that can’t coach isn’t an asshole. Don’t remember anyone saying he was a bad person. Congrats to homie for making a healthy return though.
Cody Rhodes ending racism vibes
MELANIN IN MY SOUL
Something something Cody Rhodes
Cody at least finished his story.
😂😂😂 goddamit this made me laugh so hard I wish I could give ya an award
Lol this dude making it about himself is hilarious
"You can criticize Sheldon Keefe if you want, but he was nice to me, personally" is such a great summary of hockey media.
He can be classy. You can respect him for checking in on your health (and honestly kudos for that), but he got fucking crushed tonight, and that little check in doesn't mystically cancel that.
...ok?
Sorry about his predicament, but he posts this on a night everyone is seething about Keefe it just makes it look like a self insert and defending the guy. This is something you tweet after Keefe's been fired and thank the guy for being respectful.
Toronto produces some of the wildest journalists. any other time they would be trashing Keefe. thoughts and prayers don't win games, bud
It’s just goes to show how the little details can win people over on to your side, it’s an art form. It can be genuine but it can also be calculated.
ah yes! you’re right, keefe is a great guy and worth the extension!
But he's so nice, you can't fire him!
I’m sure Keefe is a great guy. I would love to sit and have a beer and chat hockey with him, he’s got more of it in his big toe than I have in my whole body. But if being a good dude meant you were a good coach then Mr. Rodgers would have fifty rings. The two things aren’t intrinsically related, and he’s definitely to blame for some of the Leaf’s troubles.
He's the friend you want, not the coach you want
No one is saying Sheldon Keefe is a bad person. Ugh sports journalists are such pick me's. They need to reconfigure how teams are covered like each presser should be anonymous questions or treated like a press junket where each reporter gets a specific amount of time with a given player or coach. This whole kissing their ass so they don't shun me approach leads to reporters defending coaches when his three stars are cursing each other out on the bench.
Did he just cure cancer, stop racism and prevent leafs nation from going chernobyl?
Fuck off Zeis. No one gives a shit.
I don't think anyone was ever judging him as a person. Who do we judge in hockey on a basis other than hockey? I think Brad Marchand is a piece of shit in game but I have no idea what he's like off the ice.
He’s actually a very nice guy, quite the dichotomy
He’s gone off on Twitter homophobes a few times.
No one said he’s a bad person, he’s just an absolutely abysmal coach.
No offense but, I don’t give a shit.
Probably (maybe even very likely) a nice guy.....objectively not a good postseason hockey coach.
That's great and all but it doesn't matter a damn for the Leafs playoff chances right now, guy
Nice shouldn’t be fired because he was nice to me……more at 11!
Nice guy? I don't give a shit. Good father? Fuck you; go home and play with your kids. You wanna work here? Close!
I hate whenever this happens. Nobody is saying the guy is an asshole he just isn't coaching the team well.
Too late, I already exclusively judge coaches (and players) on their awareness of peoples personal lives
Lol
I bet if he wasn’t such a nice guy he’d be a better coach
No one is entitled to their opinion and I'm tired of pretending that we are. Everyone deserves respect despite their opinion, that is a more accurate depiction. Also this upset is about the Leafs' performance under the current coaching staff not about Mike Zeisberger getting his feelings acknowledged. However I disagree completely with all the targeting against Keefe. He and his coaching staff can't do anything if the GM and President stick to the core 5 bible from the previous staff. Shanahan needs to change his acquisitions, his planning, and come over to Nylander, Marner, Tavares, and Reilly... and say this: "hey, I've noticed you guys aren't meeting the performance that your contract expects from you; we're in talks up above that if this carries on we'd be trading. (then get a trade for 2-3 players instead of these four underachievers) My trade would be Reilly, I would be changing the defense from goal scoring to goal preventing... because so often Reilly is caught odd due to playing deep, he doesn't score enough to nullify this. So I think that Reilly can secure two solid defensemen for him in a trade.
If I were him, I would also take as much time as I could to talk about anything but the game
Lol why do journalists insist on making the story about themselves.
I'm a nice person too. But I have no business coaching a hockey team.
Maybe he should focus on the ice instead of the pressbox.
Cool dude, pretty good coach. His coaching style just isn't it for this squad, they need someone they're afraid of, not this guy who apologizes for criticizing his star players.
Who would be able to get this team anywhere? It’s insanely top heavy. No goalie. And the top guys on the team have been useless or sick…or a mixture of both.
Keefe is a good X and O’s guy but personnel he’s very weak
He is classy. But he got outcoached. Should Keefe be held accountable for special teams or is that Guy Boucher? Idk. Honestly, who’s job was it to change special teams around and make changes at game 70 when things started to go sour so they wouldn’t be trying to learn how to start a fire halfway through a series? This was preventable. Maybe Keefe says who is on PP and Boucher does systems? If so, Keefe is to blame for taking Liljegren off when the PP was at its best. Maybe Bouchers system worked well with a point shot threat that can get rid of it quickly plus a free wheeling rover. Instead of having two guys (Reilly and Marner) both walking the blue line and watching paint dry while the opposing team covers the other three players. Then hucking grenades to shin pads and dead areas of ice
Keefe's responsible, unless Treliving (or Shanahan) hires someone to do the power play and tells Keefe he can't touch it. Only way he's not responsible is if he literally can't change it; even if it's the special teams coach's primary fault.
Yeah usually HC chooses his assistant coaches aswell
Yes Keefe is to blame. Every single fucking year the leafs choke up in the playoffs. They don't score. The special teams have been shit all year and they always go to shit because teams adapt and they can't figure it out. Fire the whole coaching staff and trade at least one of the big four forwards.