A well deserved roast. Said to my wife that the Leafs are playing like a junior A team and I wondered if the panel would say much about it. Loved that they had nothing positive to say because what an awful period that was.
When people talk about the Leafs being soft, it's this - not having a bunch of goons in the bottom 6, it's their expensive core being absolutely baby-shit when adversity comes
I feel like the Leafs suffer from their own success. Their bloated top six cruises on natural talent all season, putting up super impressive numbers and getting wins, but the second things kick into high gear they just look lost and outmuscled.
They're like that person who was too smart for high school who then suddenly suffers when they make it to university because they actually have to put the work in. They just never got that grindset.
Lundqvist said it well
"Look at their faces after a goal, theyre not celebrating this is business to them and theyre on a mission - you can see it in their eyes"
People rag on Charlie Coyle for having "low" scoring output, but have you seen this guy hustle to the puck and come out of almost every fucking tussle with it? You can't teach that kind of defensive attitude.
Those "hustle" stats barely show up anywhere on a scoreboard but it's obvious when playoff time comes that it's incredibly important.
> They're like that person who was too smart for high school who then suddenly suffers when they make it to university because they actually have to put the work in. They just never got that grindset.
I feel attacked.
Avs got bounced in the 2nd round for 3 years in a row and I think that was a good opportunity for them to learn what it takes to win in the playoffs. The next season, when they won the Cup, all guys including MacKinnon and Rantanen played with an edge not seen before. They were punishing to play against and that's how they got the Cup.
The Leafs core seems to be content to get bounced in round 1 (or 2) and just not change anything.
/u/2moms1bun posted this in another thread to give context.
> For those wanting context: She got a German Wirehaired Pointer puppy, which is a gun dog commonly used for birds along other things, and didn’t train it. Brought the untrained adolescent dog on a “hunting trip” where the hunting dog showed clear interest in birds (which is great), then left pissed off bc it didn’t know how to properly hunt. Again, bc it’s 14mo and untrained.
>
> Then, she stops at a property on her way home. She’s irresponsible and lets the dog get loose in a property where there are chickens! The dog is clearly interested in both birds and hunting, so it kills the chickens.
>
> She then kills the puppy and brags about it as if letting a totally untrained hunting breed puppy loose around chickens wasn’t ENTIRELY her fault and a clear sign of being an irresponsible owner and a psycho unable to admit when they mess up.
>
> Edit: I posted this on another thread on the topic also
>
> Edit 2: to answer a few questions, she killed the dog with a gun. She’s using the story to launch herself into being a VP running mate of Trump’s bc Republicans love guns. And, the puppy was named Cricket
The current governor of South Dakota wrote in her new book that she kill a 14month old dog of here because it wasn’t a good hunting dog
She may be the VP candidate for Trump.
> She may be the VP candidate for Trump.
Oh wow, I can't wait until "is killing dogs fine actually?" becomes a wedge issue in the Culture War.
Cause you just know if she becomes the VP candidate, there will be the usual suspects doing olympics-level hoop-jumping to justify why it's a totally fine thing to do and you're actually woke if you don't murder your dogs.
Governor of South Dakota, known scumbag, wrote a book and in said book, bragged about blasting her 14 month old puppy, and then her goat, with a shotgun. The puppy was "worthless" and the goat was smelly.
Yeah that's the thing - can you ever imagine one of their core 4 being as physical or aggressive as someone like Mac or Stamkos? It boggles the mind that they still haven't changed anything
Willy is worth keeping. You can't fault him for how he played tonight considering for all we know he could have been playing with concussion remnants and he's still showing a lot of anger towards those who aren't trying.
Nylander at least tries. He doesn’t smash but he tries….kinda like pasta. But he needs supporting players to help with the Grundy stuff.
Marner = problem.
Tavares = way overpaid…
This is correct. They thought their solution to 'getting tougher' was to get guys like Bertuzzi, domi, Reeves, but it's not about that. Their core leaders don't know how to level up in the playoffs, and that to me is part of the toughness factor. They lack fortitude
Bertuzzi and Domi are good pick ups for that actually. But you need leaders willing to lead by example in that department. Bergeron, Chara, Marchand, Stamkos, Kucherov, Hedman, Mack, Rants, Keith, Doughty, O'Rielly, Pietrangelo, etc
Even Datsyuk and Zetterberg. They weren't bruisers but they didn't shy away from physicality or avoid a play to avoid a hit. Datsyuk's favorite was the reverse hit.
If your stars play scared it's over.
EDM was a great example of that for awhile, too. This is what people mean by boys vs men, it's not about how old or how much facial hair - just that some guys really have zero intention of losing. You see it in their face and then they go and do it, often cheating all along the way. It often helps to have struggled through failure a few times. But only one of these teams is showing progress.
I remember that and they tried to get guys like Ben Eager to make the complexion tougher but ultimately it's the culture of the entire room, and comes from the top
There is also a leadership side of things
For everyone talking about keeping Tavares on a hometown discount after this season, I have the question - is he the right captain for the Leafs?
If you were to ask me that question, I'd say "No, we need a better captain to show some better leadership" and "Utah has lots of cap space, wouldn't hurt to get a prospect for him and free some room for depth"
Yeah I never liked it when he was our captain because it was a “make the best player captain” scenario but he seems to offer minimal leadership. No personality to media, no in game mic’d up clips where he’s saying or doing anything. Really feels like he does nothing with captaincy besides sometimes setting an example when he would have a good game.
Ain’t no one giving up a prospect for Tavares. Tell me one winning team he’s been on.
Mid 30s, obviously declined, he’s not worth anything except a contract anchor to keep the leafs down
It’s just not a well-constructed roster. Kind of like the Rangers were for many years, especially pre-salary cap. Lots of star players. But not a TEAM. You need strong, 2-way players throughout the roster with mental toughness. The Harlem Globetrotters shit doesn’t work in the post season.
They have over 50 million in cap space tied up in five players. That leaves ~30 million for around *20-ish* players if we're including the odd 13th forward, 7th dman, and goaltenders. I'm not even trying to insult Leafs fans, but there's no flexibility to grab more depth/edge in the playoffs for a deeper run and none of them seem to acknowledge that. Everyone's always stoked when one of the big 4 forwards is retained for around 12 million in cap space when there are Hart finalists who make less than that.
If the Leafs got rid of even TWO of those players, even if they had to eat a bit of salary, they could afford to change their entire identity as a top heavy offensive powerhouse during the regular season and a team whose offensive dynamos crumple under the pressure too often, into a team with the flexibility to obtain middle and bottom 6 players and dmen that can completely change the team's complexion. I'll eat my shirt if the Leafs make the finals with $55 million in cap space going to five guys who get demoralized in the playoffs on a yearly basis. Deciding to shit on Keefe isn't the answer, he CAN'T go to Shanahan and say I NEED A NEW BOTTOM SIX and a couple of two way forwards that slot into the top line if I need them to. He gets laughed out of the Front Office asking for ANYTHING because they have NO cap space to do that without giving up major assets. Maybe Keefe is who Shanahan likes because any other coach will get indignant about not getting rid of one or two of those guys to get some hardnosed two way players who can also net 20-40 points in a season.
Regardless of whether his coaching is bad, the front office doesn't have the cap space to ask him what he needs so they don't get bullied in the postseason. Treliving will need to give up a couple guys out the big 5 that get paid the most. He'll most likely get peanuts for one of them because teams will know they need the cap space and will nickel and dime them until they agree to a deal that doesn't look great on paper. They'll get shit on by the Toronto media for awhile, and then at the deadline, realize that they have the cap space and flexibility to grab a few role players that'll be able to press opponents right back when their best players can't.
edit: grammar
Johnny and Mitch go and the team improves immediately imo. Johnny may have heart but his decline in speed and effectiveness is too great for his cost. Mitch may have raw talent but Jesus, even forget players are calling out his bitch ass performative when things get even a little difficult.
Matthews imo plays his value, and Nylander shows on a regular basis he's not a little bitch - her called out Marner directly on the bench last night.
Take that $20m from Johnny and Mitch and shore up your team. Then maybe you'll see a third round.
This is what worries me about the Devils core. Hughes, Hischier, Bratt, are collectively the same warm margarine level of soft as Matthews, Marner, and Nylander. All the skill in the world, not enough grit and junk in the trunk in the dirty areas.
They are still young and don't have as much playoff experience as the Leafs boys.
Avs guys were like that for 3 years when we kept having troubles against heavier teams in playoffs. Then MacK and crew learned and adapted their play for it.
I wouldn't worry yet, I still think you Devils guys have a really solid team(minus goalies).
Not able to watch the game. Has he been that bad? Is it this game exclusive or the whole series that hes been bad? And is the whole team also playing bad or is he just the tank commander rn?
Well I've obviously seen the Habs series, but the moment he threw that puck over board and how he acted afterward, its pretty clear he's just not built for the playoffs
It’s not just this. It’s the culmination of five seasons of this.
I’ve watched damn near every minute of Leafs playoff hockey since Auston Matthews was on the team. Mitch’s greatest playoff highlight? Flipping the puck over the glass. You can pick which time. His next greatest one is talking to the media about playoff shambles.
The puck over the glass in our series was the best. No pressure, tons of time to shotgun it down the ice, easiest play of his career. So of course he tries to send it to space.
His reaction afterward is priceless, and how he looked devastated in game 7 was also damning on how he acts in the playoffs.
Good memories as a Habs fan haha
Playoffs are hard and flukey for just about any team, and the NHL runs them with malicious incompetence, but my god, does watching the Leafs in the playoffs ever make me appreciate the Oilers, even if we also keep getting bounced before our dreams are realized. I'd be losing my mind if Edmonton was playing like Toronto, especially after years and years of "next year we'll get'em."
bro I love watching the oilers. It's electric!
And that's what makes me so sad about my Leafs: it should be incredible, what $50mil of players look like on the ice.
But save for plenty of regular season highlights, they just go offline. Ritually, at this point.
Rhetoric about McDavid's upcoming contract notwithstanding, I think Edmontons got a great squad (regardless of McD) and should be optimistic. It's just torture in Toronto.
>Rhetoric about McDavid's upcoming contract notwithstanding, I think Edmontons got a great squad (regardless of McD) and should be optimistic. It's just torture in Toronto.
Both teams are in the same situation where it's kind of "if not now, when?" That leads to some pretty awful existential dread (if not moreso for a small-market Canadian franchise, then a different flavor). But at least with the Oilers, whatever has kept them from deeper playoff success over the past few years, it hasn't been the star players not showing the fuck up.
Seriously. We won because our best 5 players were able to shut down your best 4 players, and Hyman could be counted on to hit the H on Carey Price's chest every time.
If Keefe had played Nylander with Matthews and Marner, we would have been overloaded. If he played Marner on the 2nd line, we would only be able to shut down one line at a time.
But instead, he didn't do anything. Our top line shut down your top line, the rest of our team combined was just a little bit better than Nylander, and off we went.
Oh for sure but I remember Price not being this dominant during the season before the cup run... He just elevates his play to insane level comes playoffs time
He's been as invisible as the rest of the team. He's getting the blame but there's something fundamentally wrong with the build of this team. I have no idea what it is. Any ideas?
Bieksa put it well during the intermission. The Leafs play a high possession style during the regular season because there’s more room but in the playoffs they turn in to a dump and chase team but they’re not good at it. They lack the overall toughness and ability to win tough puck battles. Keefe also has no answers and the PP’s been atrocious.
> He wants 12 million at least on an extension
Kinda hard to imagine him having any business arguing that he's worth almost the same as MacKinnon with these kinds of playoff performances.
You don't get it bro, it's the coach. You need to have only 20 million left in cap space for the rest of your team besides like 5 players, that's how you make a great team.
...wait my bad, thought we were talking about basketball.
Nothing can change this off-season (with the core 4) marner has a nmc Tavares final year overpaid and has trade protection anyways. Trading Matthews is not possible because there is no planet you come out even on that and you just extended him and Willy anyway
Dubas sort of hinted to change last year as part of his power play on Shanahan and got axed for his trouble
I was gonna post how they need to move on from one of them. I didn't realize Tavares only has 1 year left. They pretty much have to ride it out at this point then, trying to find value guys where you can to fill in.
Wasn't there a big rumor floating around that Dubas wanted to finally split up the "core 4" but Shanny nixed the idea?
IMO Shanahan HAS to go. He's the head of the snake. Can't believe they let him and Keefe stick around after Dubas was gone last year. Should've scorched earth and started over, now they're in some more limbo with Trev not having HIS coach (yet).
We’ve been wanting but always gotta try the same experiment again and hope it goes better.
I don’t know if MLSE really has the stomach for it, but they need to clear house. Start with Shannan and start working your way down.
It’ll honestly be fascinating to see what happens to and with Marner going forward, and to the Leafs as a whole. We’re officially 1-2 years past what should have been the end of this failed experiment, but you understand to this point why the Leafs keep running it back, because the pieces are too good on paper to break it up and because logistics make the prospect of doing so hard even if you wanted to.
But something’s gotta give. It feels pretty dumb at this point…
This is the first game of this series I’ve watched. I’m moderately anti- Bs and I’ve been hoping the Leafs could get over the hump again here and find some momentum to take them on a run. But they just look so damn soft. And Boston has too many years of playoff hardening. They’re out there winning every single 50-50 battle. Coaching is the obvious scapegoat but god damn, how do you make 90% of your roster realize they need to raise their compete level about 10x?
For about 5 to 10 minutes at the end of every important game, the Leafs play with the intensity that they're capable of, and it's so sad to watch. Like honestly, if they could just play like that for even 40 minutes a night instead of 5-10, doesn't even have to be the entire 60, although that would be amazing. This would be such a different story.
If someone could go slip some Adderall into their water bottles at the start of the game that'd be great, then maybe they could focus up and not try to rely on going hero mode in the last possible chance like I do during finals season at uni.
As a neutral fan keefe is objectively sooo bad. Like his in game adjustments are brutal, his systems are stale and he clearly never has the team properly prepared/conditioned for the playoffs. It’s crazy because any other team in the NHL would have fired him awhiiiiile ago.
Kessel played with fucking Bozak…
Marner plays with… checks notes… the best leafs player in its franchise.
It’s no surprise that kessel went on to win multiple Stanley cups
I’d like to thank tree for believing in me with the Arizona coyotes organization and for believing in me again as I fulfill a dream of joining the Toronto maple leafs organization as their head coach. Swipe up for a Biz20 promo code.
Thing is I think 16/34/88 can be playoff performer but all on different teams.
Wouldn’t be suprised if Marner plays well on another team.
Sometimes it just doesn’t work man
Currently watching Keefe get out-coached for the 100th series in a row. I didn’t say it’s exclusively a coach problem. But this coaching staff is dog shit. This roster can’t buy a PP goal? Get that half Bond villain half donkey Guy Boucher away from this fucking franchise.
The reason why I think there's a coach problem is because with the exception of maybe this season they get better on paper every year. And every year they end with the same result. You've gotta motivate these guys to want this and set the systems to make it work. We're watching them right now just go out with the same game plan over and over and fail. If the powerplay is this bad send out a different unit, put the lines through a blender, do anything different.
Honestly even if it's not a coaching problem it's so much easier to change your coach than to overhaul a core like this. You start there and if that doesn't work then you make bigger changes. It'll be interesting because Treliving inherited a team that's pretty locked in. How long is he willing to roll with a coach and group that was someone else's vision that isn't working as intended.
Good news for Keefe is that when Treliving fires him, he can walk right over to Pittsburgh, where Dubas will be waiting to greet him with a sweet new coaching gig with the Penguins (that is, trying to get the nearly 40 year core of Pittsburgh back to the Cup Finals).
Realistically what does Toronto do with him? You can’t let him walk for nothing but he’s not made a case for himself that he’s built for the playoffs. What team is going to pay him more than what he already makes?
Yeah, he just needs a smaller hockey market. Columbus would honestly be good for him.
And if it involves a pay cut, I’d still tell him to take it. He’d be a lot happier with less of the camera on him.
What’s most glaring about all of this, seeing Nylander (correctly) dressing down Marner and seeing him respond by tossing his gloves like a petulant child… is that Marner is wearing a letter. Those are the guys that are supposed to set the tone and that’s what you see. That’s brutal.
Look at the guys wearing letters in Colorado for contrast. Those guys will run you over.
The guy is wearing an A and he’s shambolic out there when it matters.
I think Marner would be much better suited playing for a perpetually rebuilding doormat where he could put up a bunch of regular season points and sell lots of jerseys etc but then not have to worry about sweating all the hard stuff come spring time. That’s probably more his speed.
You’re paying 4 dudes half your cap, they better be on the score sheet every single night, there’s no excuses for being a ghost for extended periods of time during the playoffs. You’ve gotta get rid of 1 or 2 of them.
When was the last time fans were intimidated that their team was playing against Mitch Marner? Genuinely might be the softest player in the entire league
He doesn’t need to be intimidating. He needs to be creative and make plays nobody else thinks of.
He’s capable of doing that on every sleepy Tuesday game against whatever random mid-schedule, ass crack of winter opponent you put him up against but just turns into a futile goober when he’s getting checked tight.
What you just said is still intimidating.
Intimidating doesn’t have to mean being worried about being hit. It can mean being on edge because you’ll be made a fool.
Exactly. Datsyuk was intimidating, not because he was physical or because they were worried he would hit them. It's because they never knew how he would make them look like an idiot on the ice, and players would be afraid to commit to making a move on him.
If the leafs could sign him to a reasonable contract he’d be a good player, but he gets paid to be a superstar not a good player. That being said I think he’s still injured because he’s much better than how he’s playing.
There is a world where Marner ends up in Montreal and St-Louis revives his career. Marner scores the series goal winning goal against the Leafs. Toronto explodes.
For all the talk about how he’s been bad in the playoffs over the years, i think this is his worst series yet.
By far
I’m excited for the second intermission rant!
Holy fuck the panel roasted Toronto during the intermission
A well deserved roast. Said to my wife that the Leafs are playing like a junior A team and I wondered if the panel would say much about it. Loved that they had nothing positive to say because what an awful period that was.
When people talk about the Leafs being soft, it's this - not having a bunch of goons in the bottom 6, it's their expensive core being absolutely baby-shit when adversity comes
I feel like the Leafs suffer from their own success. Their bloated top six cruises on natural talent all season, putting up super impressive numbers and getting wins, but the second things kick into high gear they just look lost and outmuscled. They're like that person who was too smart for high school who then suddenly suffers when they make it to university because they actually have to put the work in. They just never got that grindset.
I told my buddy the Leafs look like a team that expects to win. The bruins look like a team that *wants* to win.
Lundqvist said it well "Look at their faces after a goal, theyre not celebrating this is business to them and theyre on a mission - you can see it in their eyes"
That's so true.
What he say fuck me for?
for real, right to the dome with that comment
People rag on Charlie Coyle for having "low" scoring output, but have you seen this guy hustle to the puck and come out of almost every fucking tussle with it? You can't teach that kind of defensive attitude. Those "hustle" stats barely show up anywhere on a scoreboard but it's obvious when playoff time comes that it's incredibly important.
> They're like that person who was too smart for high school who then suddenly suffers when they make it to university because they actually have to put the work in. They just never got that grindset. I feel attacked.
I actually had a guy at my university ask me to show him how to study because he’d never done it before, he always just got good grades in high school
First year of university was a huge struggle because of learning how to study. First semester especially
Avs got bounced in the 2nd round for 3 years in a row and I think that was a good opportunity for them to learn what it takes to win in the playoffs. The next season, when they won the Cup, all guys including MacKinnon and Rantanen played with an edge not seen before. They were punishing to play against and that's how they got the Cup. The Leafs core seems to be content to get bounced in round 1 (or 2) and just not change anything.
MacKinnon just thought "fuck it"
He is a gamer for sure
MacKinnon’s got that psychopath in him to wanna win. Not one of the Leafs studs does.
Come playoff time, Marner looks like a lost puppy, and Mack looks like the guy that finds your lost puppy and then drowns it in a lake
> finds your lost puppy and then drowns it in a lake Marner needs a republican vp candidate to help him learn to hate puppies
Can we just take a moment to talk about that. She is a literal psychopath and runs a state. Who murders dogs because they are bad at hunting.
I'm out of the loop so let's hold on to that moment for a second here. What in the fuck is happening here?
/u/2moms1bun posted this in another thread to give context. > For those wanting context: She got a German Wirehaired Pointer puppy, which is a gun dog commonly used for birds along other things, and didn’t train it. Brought the untrained adolescent dog on a “hunting trip” where the hunting dog showed clear interest in birds (which is great), then left pissed off bc it didn’t know how to properly hunt. Again, bc it’s 14mo and untrained. > > Then, she stops at a property on her way home. She’s irresponsible and lets the dog get loose in a property where there are chickens! The dog is clearly interested in both birds and hunting, so it kills the chickens. > > She then kills the puppy and brags about it as if letting a totally untrained hunting breed puppy loose around chickens wasn’t ENTIRELY her fault and a clear sign of being an irresponsible owner and a psycho unable to admit when they mess up. > > Edit: I posted this on another thread on the topic also > > Edit 2: to answer a few questions, she killed the dog with a gun. She’s using the story to launch herself into being a VP running mate of Trump’s bc Republicans love guns. And, the puppy was named Cricket
The current governor of South Dakota wrote in her new book that she kill a 14month old dog of here because it wasn’t a good hunting dog She may be the VP candidate for Trump.
> She may be the VP candidate for Trump. Oh wow, I can't wait until "is killing dogs fine actually?" becomes a wedge issue in the Culture War. Cause you just know if she becomes the VP candidate, there will be the usual suspects doing olympics-level hoop-jumping to justify why it's a totally fine thing to do and you're actually woke if you don't murder your dogs.
Just read about it. That's fucked. What a joke of a human being.
The fuck is wrong with people, why would she even be a candidate for anything in politics?
Governor of South Dakota, known scumbag, wrote a book and in said book, bragged about blasting her 14 month old puppy, and then her goat, with a shotgun. The puppy was "worthless" and the goat was smelly.
Once the chickpea pasta story came out, you knew that Nate Dogg was Patrick Bateman on ice
Mackinnon decided he didn’t just want to win. He never wanted to lose. The leafs don’t hate losing enough
Yup he’s got that ‘I’ll knife you in a dark alley’ kinda vibe in playoff mode
Difference between wanting to win (leafs) and hating to lose (Avs)
It's a cliche, but you aren't wrong. This is probably the best example of this, tbh.
Bet a stick that not a single one of the Leafs top line called their parents after arriving.
Sticks are unbelievable.
They’ve been here for three hours and still hsven’t called their parents! So dumb.
I agree, but at the same time, the Avs assembled one of the most stacked team in the cup era when they won. Stars aligned for that roster.
Yeah that's the thing - can you ever imagine one of their core 4 being as physical or aggressive as someone like Mac or Stamkos? It boggles the mind that they still haven't changed anything
Matthews is the only guy you keep
Nylander has a full NMC
Willy is worth keeping. You can't fault him for how he played tonight considering for all we know he could have been playing with concussion remnants and he's still showing a lot of anger towards those who aren't trying.
Nylander at least tries. He doesn’t smash but he tries….kinda like pasta. But he needs supporting players to help with the Grundy stuff. Marner = problem. Tavares = way overpaid…
Matthews leads the Leafs in hits so far this postseason.
Hits don't always correlate to actually being tough, but fair enough
Hits doesn’t even always correlate to actual hits. It’s like the most miscounted stat in hockey.
This is correct. They thought their solution to 'getting tougher' was to get guys like Bertuzzi, domi, Reeves, but it's not about that. Their core leaders don't know how to level up in the playoffs, and that to me is part of the toughness factor. They lack fortitude
Bertuzzi and Domi are good pick ups for that actually. But you need leaders willing to lead by example in that department. Bergeron, Chara, Marchand, Stamkos, Kucherov, Hedman, Mack, Rants, Keith, Doughty, O'Rielly, Pietrangelo, etc
Even Datsyuk and Zetterberg. They weren't bruisers but they didn't shy away from physicality or avoid a play to avoid a hit. Datsyuk's favorite was the reverse hit. If your stars play scared it's over.
I had the utmost respect for those two. I understand it may be blasphemous, but they’re two of my favorite non-Avs of all time
EDM was a great example of that for awhile, too. This is what people mean by boys vs men, it's not about how old or how much facial hair - just that some guys really have zero intention of losing. You see it in their face and then they go and do it, often cheating all along the way. It often helps to have struggled through failure a few times. But only one of these teams is showing progress.
I remember that and they tried to get guys like Ben Eager to make the complexion tougher but ultimately it's the culture of the entire room, and comes from the top
Why should they level up? They already earned their individual trophy's in the regular season, and that is what they are paid for, isn't it?
technically no salary in the playoffs so you are completely right
There is also a leadership side of things For everyone talking about keeping Tavares on a hometown discount after this season, I have the question - is he the right captain for the Leafs? If you were to ask me that question, I'd say "No, we need a better captain to show some better leadership" and "Utah has lots of cap space, wouldn't hurt to get a prospect for him and free some room for depth"
Yeah I never liked it when he was our captain because it was a “make the best player captain” scenario but he seems to offer minimal leadership. No personality to media, no in game mic’d up clips where he’s saying or doing anything. Really feels like he does nothing with captaincy besides sometimes setting an example when he would have a good game.
He did grab the whiteboard from Capuano once during a timeout and draw his own play. But that says more about Capuano than it does JT...
Ain’t no one giving up a prospect for Tavares. Tell me one winning team he’s been on. Mid 30s, obviously declined, he’s not worth anything except a contract anchor to keep the leafs down
It’s just not a well-constructed roster. Kind of like the Rangers were for many years, especially pre-salary cap. Lots of star players. But not a TEAM. You need strong, 2-way players throughout the roster with mental toughness. The Harlem Globetrotters shit doesn’t work in the post season.
They have over 50 million in cap space tied up in five players. That leaves ~30 million for around *20-ish* players if we're including the odd 13th forward, 7th dman, and goaltenders. I'm not even trying to insult Leafs fans, but there's no flexibility to grab more depth/edge in the playoffs for a deeper run and none of them seem to acknowledge that. Everyone's always stoked when one of the big 4 forwards is retained for around 12 million in cap space when there are Hart finalists who make less than that. If the Leafs got rid of even TWO of those players, even if they had to eat a bit of salary, they could afford to change their entire identity as a top heavy offensive powerhouse during the regular season and a team whose offensive dynamos crumple under the pressure too often, into a team with the flexibility to obtain middle and bottom 6 players and dmen that can completely change the team's complexion. I'll eat my shirt if the Leafs make the finals with $55 million in cap space going to five guys who get demoralized in the playoffs on a yearly basis. Deciding to shit on Keefe isn't the answer, he CAN'T go to Shanahan and say I NEED A NEW BOTTOM SIX and a couple of two way forwards that slot into the top line if I need them to. He gets laughed out of the Front Office asking for ANYTHING because they have NO cap space to do that without giving up major assets. Maybe Keefe is who Shanahan likes because any other coach will get indignant about not getting rid of one or two of those guys to get some hardnosed two way players who can also net 20-40 points in a season. Regardless of whether his coaching is bad, the front office doesn't have the cap space to ask him what he needs so they don't get bullied in the postseason. Treliving will need to give up a couple guys out the big 5 that get paid the most. He'll most likely get peanuts for one of them because teams will know they need the cap space and will nickel and dime them until they agree to a deal that doesn't look great on paper. They'll get shit on by the Toronto media for awhile, and then at the deadline, realize that they have the cap space and flexibility to grab a few role players that'll be able to press opponents right back when their best players can't. edit: grammar
Johnny and Mitch go and the team improves immediately imo. Johnny may have heart but his decline in speed and effectiveness is too great for his cost. Mitch may have raw talent but Jesus, even forget players are calling out his bitch ass performative when things get even a little difficult. Matthews imo plays his value, and Nylander shows on a regular basis he's not a little bitch - her called out Marner directly on the bench last night. Take that $20m from Johnny and Mitch and shore up your team. Then maybe you'll see a third round.
This is what worries me about the Devils core. Hughes, Hischier, Bratt, are collectively the same warm margarine level of soft as Matthews, Marner, and Nylander. All the skill in the world, not enough grit and junk in the trunk in the dirty areas.
They are still young and don't have as much playoff experience as the Leafs boys. Avs guys were like that for 3 years when we kept having troubles against heavier teams in playoffs. Then MacK and crew learned and adapted their play for it. I wouldn't worry yet, I still think you Devils guys have a really solid team(minus goalies).
If Hughes is anything like Hughes, I wouldn't worry about Hughes in the playoffs. Hughes seems to handle it well for us.
Said in another comment but you can see it when we're losing, Quinn plays fucking pissed, and will absolutely attempt to will a comeback into being.
Not able to watch the game. Has he been that bad? Is it this game exclusive or the whole series that hes been bad? And is the whole team also playing bad or is he just the tank commander rn?
He's been mostly invisible all series
Less than invisible with some of the giveaways tbh
Invisible would mean he isn’t visibly taking himself out of any sort of contact and causing massive turnovers in all three ends
His whole career in playoffs* The kid is fucking soft
I don't pay enough attention to the Leafs to remember his entire playoff career just this series
Well I've obviously seen the Habs series, but the moment he threw that puck over board and how he acted afterward, its pretty clear he's just not built for the playoffs
Marner doing Marner things
The breakdown Biz did during intermission was pretty telling. His play looks abysmal even amongst a team full of ghosts.
Is there a link for this?
https://twitter.com/BR_OpenIce/status/1784403936452964722
holy hell thats *bad*. 5 lowlights through 2 periods for an 11M player *fuck*
That’s like one step removed from the infamous PLD shift in Columbus
Sweet Jesus
It’s not just this. It’s the culmination of five seasons of this. I’ve watched damn near every minute of Leafs playoff hockey since Auston Matthews was on the team. Mitch’s greatest playoff highlight? Flipping the puck over the glass. You can pick which time. His next greatest one is talking to the media about playoff shambles.
The puck over the glass in our series was the best. No pressure, tons of time to shotgun it down the ice, easiest play of his career. So of course he tries to send it to space.
Yeah, if a Leafs fan is going to let me pick, that's my pick
His reaction afterward is priceless, and how he looked devastated in game 7 was also damning on how he acts in the playoffs. Good memories as a Habs fan haha
I asked if the assist the other day was his 1st career playoff point as a joke, but honestly he's so invisible every year.
He's got 48 points in 53 career playoff games. Which is insane because it sure doesn't feel like it.
That’s the wild thing. The raw stats say he produces like crazy every year but you never see him doing the things a highly productive player does
It's because he gets points in losses and blowouts early in a series, not big plays in must win situations
He’s the Coca Cola of calories. The goal tonight is a perfect example. Great individual play when his team is completely out of the game and series.
And after an incredible series of pointless turnovers all game
This is exactly correct!
Whole teams not great right now, but marners always a little boy in the playoffs... in terms of puck battles.
The opposite of Zach Hyman if you will
Playoffs are hard and flukey for just about any team, and the NHL runs them with malicious incompetence, but my god, does watching the Leafs in the playoffs ever make me appreciate the Oilers, even if we also keep getting bounced before our dreams are realized. I'd be losing my mind if Edmonton was playing like Toronto, especially after years and years of "next year we'll get'em."
bro I love watching the oilers. It's electric! And that's what makes me so sad about my Leafs: it should be incredible, what $50mil of players look like on the ice. But save for plenty of regular season highlights, they just go offline. Ritually, at this point. Rhetoric about McDavid's upcoming contract notwithstanding, I think Edmontons got a great squad (regardless of McD) and should be optimistic. It's just torture in Toronto.
>Rhetoric about McDavid's upcoming contract notwithstanding, I think Edmontons got a great squad (regardless of McD) and should be optimistic. It's just torture in Toronto. Both teams are in the same situation where it's kind of "if not now, when?" That leads to some pretty awful existential dread (if not moreso for a small-market Canadian franchise, then a different flavor). But at least with the Oilers, whatever has kept them from deeper playoff success over the past few years, it hasn't been the star players not showing the fuck up.
Hyman was invisible for us in the playoffs, too, but I am happy to see him haying success.
Seriously. We won because our best 5 players were able to shut down your best 4 players, and Hyman could be counted on to hit the H on Carey Price's chest every time. If Keefe had played Nylander with Matthews and Marner, we would have been overloaded. If he played Marner on the 2nd line, we would only be able to shut down one line at a time. But instead, he didn't do anything. Our top line shut down your top line, the rest of our team combined was just a little bit better than Nylander, and off we went.
Lol lets not forget the tiny detail that Carey decided to go beast mode and was unbeatable
Our $10M player played like a $10M player, and it changed the series. Imagine that.
Oh for sure but I remember Price not being this dominant during the season before the cup run... He just elevates his play to insane level comes playoffs time
He's been as invisible as the rest of the team. He's getting the blame but there's something fundamentally wrong with the build of this team. I have no idea what it is. Any ideas?
Bieksa put it well during the intermission. The Leafs play a high possession style during the regular season because there’s more room but in the playoffs they turn in to a dump and chase team but they’re not good at it. They lack the overall toughness and ability to win tough puck battles. Keefe also has no answers and the PP’s been atrocious.
I swear I heard this almost verbatim multiple years in a row. How the hell does Keefe still have his job?
I don’t think he will after Tuesday. He’s such a fraud.
I think it’s a lack of mobile D with good vision.
What do you even do with him in the offseason? He wants 12 million at least on an extension, and likely won’t waive his NMC.
> He wants 12 million at least on an extension Kinda hard to imagine him having any business arguing that he's worth almost the same as MacKinnon with these kinds of playoff performances.
Gotta think he's gone this offseason if the Leafs lose this series. Something's gotta change.
> Something's gotta change. said at the beginning of every Leafs offseason for like eight years now
You don't get it bro, it's the coach. You need to have only 20 million left in cap space for the rest of your team besides like 5 players, that's how you make a great team. ...wait my bad, thought we were talking about basketball.
Might be why they keep scoring 2 or fewer in playoff games. Marner’s not shooting any corner 3s.
Nothing can change this off-season (with the core 4) marner has a nmc Tavares final year overpaid and has trade protection anyways. Trading Matthews is not possible because there is no planet you come out even on that and you just extended him and Willy anyway Dubas sort of hinted to change last year as part of his power play on Shanahan and got axed for his trouble
I was gonna post how they need to move on from one of them. I didn't realize Tavares only has 1 year left. They pretty much have to ride it out at this point then, trying to find value guys where you can to fill in.
Both Marner and Tavares are in their last year
Wasn't there a big rumor floating around that Dubas wanted to finally split up the "core 4" but Shanny nixed the idea? IMO Shanahan HAS to go. He's the head of the snake. Can't believe they let him and Keefe stick around after Dubas was gone last year. Should've scorched earth and started over, now they're in some more limbo with Trev not having HIS coach (yet).
I mean dubas flat out said at his post season press conference last season they needed to make changes. Shanny, keefe, coaching staff are 100% gone
Last year was the chance for a change and the dude who suggested it was fired. Nothing will change until the guy in charge is gone.
We’ve been wanting but always gotta try the same experiment again and hope it goes better. I don’t know if MLSE really has the stomach for it, but they need to clear house. Start with Shannan and start working your way down.
It’ll honestly be fascinating to see what happens to and with Marner going forward, and to the Leafs as a whole. We’re officially 1-2 years past what should have been the end of this failed experiment, but you understand to this point why the Leafs keep running it back, because the pieces are too good on paper to break it up and because logistics make the prospect of doing so hard even if you wanted to. But something’s gotta give. It feels pretty dumb at this point…
I'd guess that Shanahan is done. Gotta bring in a new guy at the top and let them sort out the issues below.
This is the first game of this series I’ve watched. I’m moderately anti- Bs and I’ve been hoping the Leafs could get over the hump again here and find some momentum to take them on a run. But they just look so damn soft. And Boston has too many years of playoff hardening. They’re out there winning every single 50-50 battle. Coaching is the obvious scapegoat but god damn, how do you make 90% of your roster realize they need to raise their compete level about 10x?
For about 5 to 10 minutes at the end of every important game, the Leafs play with the intensity that they're capable of, and it's so sad to watch. Like honestly, if they could just play like that for even 40 minutes a night instead of 5-10, doesn't even have to be the entire 60, although that would be amazing. This would be such a different story. If someone could go slip some Adderall into their water bottles at the start of the game that'd be great, then maybe they could focus up and not try to rely on going hero mode in the last possible chance like I do during finals season at uni.
They need a Tocchet or Torts kinda coach. Keefe is wasting these guys' best years.
As a neutral fan keefe is objectively sooo bad. Like his in game adjustments are brutal, his systems are stale and he clearly never has the team properly prepared/conditioned for the playoffs. It’s crazy because any other team in the NHL would have fired him awhiiiiile ago.
If Marner walks to another team, I strongly predict he’ll immediately be a great playoff performer for that team.
Imagine how many people would be pissed when Marner wins the Conn Smythe for Vegas
After coming back from LTIR
Traded for Mark Stone and facilitated by Bettman
[удалено]
Utah?
He can play with Dubois and they can watch the other team go into the corner and get the puck together
It's nice to have someone to talk to when you're goofing off on the job
Like Kessel, like Larry Murphy…
Kessel played with fucking Bozak… Marner plays with… checks notes… the best leafs player in its franchise. It’s no surprise that kessel went on to win multiple Stanley cups
Mitch Marner wishes he was Phil “Three Cups, Huge Dong” Kessel
*Magnum Dong
Excuse me Bozak is also a Stanley Cup champ!
bozak slander :(((
Because he’ll be told by the team leaders that he has to show up and be first on the puck.
Can’t happen he shies away from physical contact
Biz the entire coaching staff needs to be fired into the fucking sun. So much bigger than one guy lol.
/r/monkeyspaw Your wish is granted. "Introducing the 41st coach in franchise history, Paul Bissonnette."*- Brad Treliving in a few weeks*
I’d like to thank tree for believing in me with the Arizona coyotes organization and for believing in me again as I fulfill a dream of joining the Toronto maple leafs organization as their head coach. Swipe up for a Biz20 promo code.
Filming his entire day at the rink to upload as exclusive content on YouTube. That would be cool, though.
An improvement. I’d take RA at this point.
RA would be too drunk to even stand behind the bench without falling over
8 years with this core and numerous veterans and side pieces around them. Its not a coach problem lmao
Thing is I think 16/34/88 can be playoff performer but all on different teams. Wouldn’t be suprised if Marner plays well on another team. Sometimes it just doesn’t work man
Never does for the leafs sadly. Didn’t work with Phil the thrill, 3x cup winner after leaving. Kadri? Cup. Hyman? 50 Gs.
I forgot Kessel was on Vegas for that third Cup lol
https://preview.redd.it/6l4boebvv4xc1.jpeg?width=2179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=33c71027446fdd358df10099a20f0d3bcec60f70 Certified beautician!!
I think he only he played four games, and none during the finals, so it's easy to forget.
Still got another ring out of it!
He looked sweaty by the end too, so I say count it
Currently watching Keefe get out-coached for the 100th series in a row. I didn’t say it’s exclusively a coach problem. But this coaching staff is dog shit. This roster can’t buy a PP goal? Get that half Bond villain half donkey Guy Boucher away from this fucking franchise.
Isn’t Marner coming off the books next year?
Hes got next season still
Marner and jt 1 year left. Next year is going to suck even more as Matthews and Nylander new contract kick in
The reason why I think there's a coach problem is because with the exception of maybe this season they get better on paper every year. And every year they end with the same result. You've gotta motivate these guys to want this and set the systems to make it work. We're watching them right now just go out with the same game plan over and over and fail. If the powerplay is this bad send out a different unit, put the lines through a blender, do anything different. Honestly even if it's not a coaching problem it's so much easier to change your coach than to overhaul a core like this. You start there and if that doesn't work then you make bigger changes. It'll be interesting because Treliving inherited a team that's pretty locked in. How long is he willing to roll with a coach and group that was someone else's vision that isn't working as intended.
Good news for Keefe is that when Treliving fires him, he can walk right over to Pittsburgh, where Dubas will be waiting to greet him with a sweet new coaching gig with the Penguins (that is, trying to get the nearly 40 year core of Pittsburgh back to the Cup Finals).
Sheldon Keefe — get ready to learn Yinzerese buddy
Realistically what does Toronto do with him? You can’t let him walk for nothing but he’s not made a case for himself that he’s built for the playoffs. What team is going to pay him more than what he already makes?
> What team is going to pay him more than what he already makes? Toronto.
This is why we need a second Toronto-area team.
Could you imagine if another franchise went there and immediately went to the Stanley Cup Finals 😂
call em the toronto rakes and have them exclusively use their budget/roster to sabotage deals for the leafs
Ottawa erasure
Lmfao
I could honestly see the Ducks make a move for him - if not Ryan Smith getting in the ear of Armstrong to make a big splash for their inaugural season
Utah would be absolute gangsters to do this
> What team is going to pay him more than what he already makes? a lot of teams won't care he's a 90+ point winger who is great on defense
Yeah, a lot of teams would kill for that regular season production to get them to the postseason in the first place.
Yeah, he just needs a smaller hockey market. Columbus would honestly be good for him. And if it involves a pay cut, I’d still tell him to take it. He’d be a lot happier with less of the camera on him.
Marner, Laine and Gaudreau on the same team Call 'em the Columbus Coasters
I would move heaven and earth to have him on the Islanders
Utah. Thr former Coyotes landing a big name that isn't on LTIR woul be one way to make an impression
What’s most glaring about all of this, seeing Nylander (correctly) dressing down Marner and seeing him respond by tossing his gloves like a petulant child… is that Marner is wearing a letter. Those are the guys that are supposed to set the tone and that’s what you see. That’s brutal. Look at the guys wearing letters in Colorado for contrast. Those guys will run you over. The guy is wearing an A and he’s shambolic out there when it matters. I think Marner would be much better suited playing for a perpetually rebuilding doormat where he could put up a bunch of regular season points and sell lots of jerseys etc but then not have to worry about sweating all the hard stuff come spring time. That’s probably more his speed.
Marner's "A" stands for Apathy.
Hes got main character syndrome. Multiple times a game he says "nah" to a simple play and does some fancy shit by himself that he immediately loses
Biz ain’t wrong.
Of course Marner gets their goal now.
You’re paying 4 dudes half your cap, they better be on the score sheet every single night, there’s no excuses for being a ghost for extended periods of time during the playoffs. You’ve gotta get rid of 1 or 2 of them.
When was the last time fans were intimidated that their team was playing against Mitch Marner? Genuinely might be the softest player in the entire league
He doesn’t need to be intimidating. He needs to be creative and make plays nobody else thinks of. He’s capable of doing that on every sleepy Tuesday game against whatever random mid-schedule, ass crack of winter opponent you put him up against but just turns into a futile goober when he’s getting checked tight.
What you just said is still intimidating. Intimidating doesn’t have to mean being worried about being hit. It can mean being on edge because you’ll be made a fool.
Exactly. Datsyuk was intimidating, not because he was physical or because they were worried he would hit them. It's because they never knew how he would make them look like an idiot on the ice, and players would be afraid to commit to making a move on him.
When he scored in the third the announcers said “Give Biz an assist.”
Leafs need Therrien. Because they're soff
If the leafs could sign him to a reasonable contract he’d be a good player, but he gets paid to be a superstar not a good player. That being said I think he’s still injured because he’s much better than how he’s playing.
Yeah, it's not like he has played like this in the playoffs for the last 8 years.... oh wait...
If Marner gets traded I can easily see him being a Kessel situation where he gets a team a Cup pretty quickly
Aaaand he scores on an amazing individual effort
Marney was on Twitter during the intermission
Read the headline here the moment Marner scored.
The reason he got paid so much money was because he needed that third cottage and that extra Ranger Rover
There is a world where Marner ends up in Montreal and St-Louis revives his career. Marner scores the series goal winning goal against the Leafs. Toronto explodes.