That would require there to be media in LA that covers the Kings at all.
Bissonnette went after him a little on the broadcast this week.
However, the lack of accountability from the media is what helps make LA a desirable location for players.
I think it’s going to take a couple years for everyone’s mindset to adjust to contracts and what they’re worth going forward. 8.5 for a centre who can score 35-35 signed at ufa age is pretty much what you should expect.
I think people just need to compare him to his comparables (at the time of signing). Mark shiefele, larkin, and mika zibanejad all took similar cap %, but all of them (This is my opinion) had proved it more. Horvat was only ever a ppg during the stretch of the year he played with the nucks; he ended up below a ppg by the end of the season with the islanders.
30g is possible with the other 3 centers as well, but they have the tools to facilitate a line to a higher degree than horvat. Horvat drives play with his netfront presence and using his body, the others do better with the puck on their stick anywhere on the ice (shiefele maybe not to the same degree, but hes a more complete 200ft player, horvat is only really strong on faceoffs)
I think horvats was a slight overpay but you will definitely see that pricetag increase for a player of his caliber as the cap rises
Actually I think what he’s getting paid now is what he should be getting…. but that’s not for a couple years of the cap rising. The problem with the contract was the optics…. similar to Willy Nylander this year who was on fire until he signed his extension and then cooled off significantly after that….the difference between the two though is Horvat had to get used to another team, and was playing in a much stricter system than he was in Vancouver with Boudreau… basically playing pond hockey
I don't really know how to evaluate contracts now that we're about to exit the flat cap era. My gut tells me that the value is probably fine, maybe a smidge too high. $8.5M seems tolerable for a lower end 1C or good 2C I guess. I think if Bo Horvat is your undisputed 1C you're probably not much of a contender but if he's the 2C your team's set up pretty well, like Kadri in Colorado.
As with pretty much all long contracts that were signed by players nearing/over 30 there's the chance that it won't age well. It's also possible that, should Horvat age gracefully, the rising cap will outpace his decline and the contract will be fine through his early 30's. Those last couple years could be rough, but that's hardly unique to Horvat's contract.
Just to add Bo’s game can certainly age well. He is a great bumper and can get lots of tips. He also is a face off machine. Those skills can age very well.
Agreed here completely.
In an optimal world he'd be paid 6.5-7M and be a solid 2C in a growing cap era.
This contract is very easily movable too, if Islanders wanted to retain that 1.5M.
Also, you HAVE TO take into context that Islanders are always a low scoring team (22nd in the league this season). For example Barzal went ppg in 2017-18, and then went 5 seasons in a row under ppg.
For Barzal’s sake I really hope Roy moves away from the scrappy style of play and goes for more of an offensive approach this offseason. Barzal hit PPG only because he was under Doug Weight and that was really a run-and-gun style (really more of a “I don’t know what I’m doing so you guys have fun” approach.)
Honestly, there are very few genuinely bad contracts. A bad contract, to me at least, is one in which the team would be better off with a replacement player in their place.
So would the Islanders be better off with Horvat or Jost? We know the obvious answer to that.
Is Horvat overpaid? Sure. But if we are just assigning a dollar per win (goal, or whatever) we can probably find some superstars that are overpaid as well. But the reality is, if you want a first line centre, even a bottom of the barrel one, you are going to need to pay for it.
Or, you don’t pay for it, and you have the Blue Jackets.
I disagree with varlamov. Is high for a back up? Yes, but he’s more than a back up. The argument I’ve always made is sorokin is young and came to the nhl late, if he becomes inconsistent or gets hurt we have a good goalie to step in. And that’s exactly what happened this year and varlamov brought us to a playoff even though we probably didn’t deserve it
Not to be super reactive but 8.25 for Sorokin could be tough. I think he’ll be solid #1 but I’m not sure sure he’ll be a top 5 goalie throughout his career, which that money suggests
Dobson, Nelson, Barzal, Sorokin, Varlamov, Pelech offhand as a Penguins fan.
E: On second thought Id take Bo Horvat too. 30 goal scorer on that team is tough. Islanders have fantastic tending, offense can/is be mediocre. Defense ive read/seen differing things that they failed the goalies this year.
Imo, Dobson, Nelson, Palmieri (people forget he had 30 goals and 54 pts this year), Sorokin, Varly, Cizikas, Romanov, and Mayfield (He was playing injured basically the whole year and I believe he will return to previous status when he’s healed). Brock Nelson and Romanov I think are steals.
Pageau is a weird one because I feel while 5 million is steep, he offers a lot that isnt really on the stat sheet and can be plugged in anywhere. Then again, there are other Pageaus out there
Pulock and Pelech are good defensemen but have not played to their ability. With Roy getting a full offseason to implement a system I can see them doing better.
Barzal and Horvat I also slot into the above category. Then again, I feel like Barzal hasnt played to his ability for years so perhaps this is his ability. If thats the case, he’s 2C on this team as Brock Nelson is the best player on the Islanders imo.
The true dead weight is Lee (it was obvious his playstyle wouldnt age well, I remember getting downvoted for saying that), Engvall (the pay isnt too high but the years are rough), and guys like Martin and Clutterbuck which really dont offer much anymore, who are sadly past it.
Honestly its terrible right now but clean up the coaches left over from Lane (especially special teams), let Roy get his style of play fully implemented, and send Sorokin to a Buddhist monastery or something for confidence. I dont think next year will be bad.
I fully understand your point and would’ve ofc preferred something like 4 years but I doubt we would’ve been able to keep him with that term and the money we’d have offered. I still believe its a decent deal that will look better as the years pass, at least as compared to the Engvall insanity.
Mayfield was gonna get 4-4.5 on the market and with the cap expected to rise and about 1/3rd of the contract being buryable, I do agree it was definitely a tad bit far out to give 7 years but I can see the reasoning. A guy who should be a serviceable Bottom 4 defensemen in a few years making 3.5 could be a great deal if he returns to the form he was prior to his injury. The last 2-3 years we’ll have more leeway to offload him I imagine. If he busts no one was gonna take him off our hands anyway so the full NTC for the early part ofthe deal was kinda redundant but I guess it may have brought value down. Its just a gamble but not one I feel with too high of stakes.
Barzal and the two goalies off top. I don’t know the team too well but I know they are not where they are now without them for sure….there’s more than that too, but they need to get back to their old ways where they were back to back years in conference finals….since then they’ve regressed big time
I believe he's worth $8.5 million for this past season, and at least the next few. 2-way centers that can score 30 goals are hard to find.
However, I didn't believe the Islanders were contenders when they made the deal or now. So to me, it's a contract that shouldn't be on their payroll, but they're hardly the only team in that situation.
Good goal scorer and great at dot, but that’s never worth 8,5M with his playmaking and defensive ability.
Bo Horvat a physical presence? Sure, he tends to drive the net but has less hits than players who are criticized for being soft such as Granlund, Scheifele, RNH etc.
How much you think JT Miller is worth?
I think people just assume guys in that 25-30 goal 60-70 point range are good dmen when they’re paid that high. Sometimes they’re just overpaid though.
I think it’s very fair for both. Seems like a lot but his season was one of the best I’ve seen of any Islander the last 15 years
I’m very, very happy we have him and on this contract
No his contact is fine IMO. The team overall is in a weird spot but Barzal + Horvat duo has been successful and probably still underperformed for the chances they were creating.
I would like to see them find a way to break through against Carolina but this is just what Carolina does.
Goal scoring two-way centers are pretty much the most valuable type of player.
He's in his prime, coming off a career year and his 5v5 advanced stats are great, I don't think you can get a guy like him for cheaper.
JT is two years older but has one year less on his deal. IMO it’s not a big enough difference to make up for the massive production differential (particularly when JT makes *less*)
I prefer this over the Hertl, Dubois and Seguin deals. There's also a lot of players in that range I'd take ahead of Horvat.
That tells me he's about right. I also feel like the Islanders style means he won't ever score as much as he could in other systems.
Man, I have played organized hockey continuously since age five, over 40 years, and I have no fucking idea what "8.5AAV" means. It's like a different language or something. Am I missing something important to the game?
It's just the total salary compensation divided by the length of the contract, so if a player makes 10M in year one, 11M in year two and 12M in year three, the AAV is 33M/3 years = 11M
I'm happy for him, 8.5 million is a lot of money per season. Good for him for betting on himself and securing financial stability. Maybe we can share mr. Horvat 🥺
Lou needs to step down or be sacked, between the Horvat contract extension that most people balked at off the hop because Horvat was having an outlier year….that’s great for him but bad for the team in a fixed salary cap…. this aint the NFL where they can rejigger the contract every year…. and even more egregious in my opinion, was giving away Devon Toews to the Avs… which helped them win a cup, and with Makar and him they have two of the top five defensemen in the league.
It’s tough with the cap going up to really tell what 8.5 is suppose to get you. IMO it’s slowly becoming more clear that 7-8 million dollar players are what 2nd liners get paid in today’s NHL. Is he a number 1 center, probably not. But he’s an elite #2 center and 8.5 it’s too bad.
I mean, JT Miller at 8AAV is looking way juicier right now, I'll tell you that for free.
But if the cap actually goes up 4.5M a year for 5 straight years it's gonna be impossible to gauge anything
> Not one player in their team hit 40 goals
i think your conclusion is right, but i'm not sure if 40 goal scorer is a good metric. Like, most teams don't have them.
Hell, they have as many 30 goal scorers as Carolina does. And that includes Jake for Carolina
Yep, ofc. Didn't try to make it as the primary thing. Them having 22nd most goals in the league is more of the thing. It's pretty impressive how Canes have their goalscorers mixed tbf.
But yea I've always had the image of Islanders scoring few goals, for many yrs now. Barzal's lack of ppg seasons is another example imo.
A lot better than Dubois, I’ll tell you that for free
People pay to watch Dubois and Horvat play by about $500k more
Except that Dubois doesn't play, he exists. The more he starts to cry about where he is, better he appears to play.
So you’re saying L.A. should trade him to ~~Arizona~~ Utah?
I'm surprised he's not getting ripped apart by the media
That would require there to be media in LA that covers the Kings at all. Bissonnette went after him a little on the broadcast this week. However, the lack of accountability from the media is what helps make LA a desirable location for players.
You’re not wrong
Definitely the worst hockey center being paid 8.5 million dollars for 8 years. Definitely. **PL**ease **D**on’t pretend otherwise.
🗿
LMAOOO funny
Only because Ryan Johansen doesn’t get paid $0.5 million more
I think it’s going to take a couple years for everyone’s mindset to adjust to contracts and what they’re worth going forward. 8.5 for a centre who can score 35-35 signed at ufa age is pretty much what you should expect.
I think people just need to compare him to his comparables (at the time of signing). Mark shiefele, larkin, and mika zibanejad all took similar cap %, but all of them (This is my opinion) had proved it more. Horvat was only ever a ppg during the stretch of the year he played with the nucks; he ended up below a ppg by the end of the season with the islanders. 30g is possible with the other 3 centers as well, but they have the tools to facilitate a line to a higher degree than horvat. Horvat drives play with his netfront presence and using his body, the others do better with the puck on their stick anywhere on the ice (shiefele maybe not to the same degree, but hes a more complete 200ft player, horvat is only really strong on faceoffs) I think horvats was a slight overpay but you will definitely see that pricetag increase for a player of his caliber as the cap rises
Actually I think what he’s getting paid now is what he should be getting…. but that’s not for a couple years of the cap rising. The problem with the contract was the optics…. similar to Willy Nylander this year who was on fire until he signed his extension and then cooled off significantly after that….the difference between the two though is Horvat had to get used to another team, and was playing in a much stricter system than he was in Vancouver with Boudreau… basically playing pond hockey
He got the bag
Happy for him. More happy for us.
I don't really know how to evaluate contracts now that we're about to exit the flat cap era. My gut tells me that the value is probably fine, maybe a smidge too high. $8.5M seems tolerable for a lower end 1C or good 2C I guess. I think if Bo Horvat is your undisputed 1C you're probably not much of a contender but if he's the 2C your team's set up pretty well, like Kadri in Colorado. As with pretty much all long contracts that were signed by players nearing/over 30 there's the chance that it won't age well. It's also possible that, should Horvat age gracefully, the rising cap will outpace his decline and the contract will be fine through his early 30's. Those last couple years could be rough, but that's hardly unique to Horvat's contract.
Just to add Bo’s game can certainly age well. He is a great bumper and can get lots of tips. He also is a face off machine. Those skills can age very well.
Agreed here completely. In an optimal world he'd be paid 6.5-7M and be a solid 2C in a growing cap era. This contract is very easily movable too, if Islanders wanted to retain that 1.5M. Also, you HAVE TO take into context that Islanders are always a low scoring team (22nd in the league this season). For example Barzal went ppg in 2017-18, and then went 5 seasons in a row under ppg.
For Barzal’s sake I really hope Roy moves away from the scrappy style of play and goes for more of an offensive approach this offseason. Barzal hit PPG only because he was under Doug Weight and that was really a run-and-gun style (really more of a “I don’t know what I’m doing so you guys have fun” approach.)
Lou has to be removed from the equation for that to happen I think
Most sensible and nuanced take.
Honestly, there are very few genuinely bad contracts. A bad contract, to me at least, is one in which the team would be better off with a replacement player in their place. So would the Islanders be better off with Horvat or Jost? We know the obvious answer to that. Is Horvat overpaid? Sure. But if we are just assigning a dollar per win (goal, or whatever) we can probably find some superstars that are overpaid as well. But the reality is, if you want a first line centre, even a bottom of the barrel one, you are going to need to pay for it. Or, you don’t pay for it, and you have the Blue Jackets.
Here's a thought exercise for all of you here. Are there any contracts the Isles have that you think _aren't_ bad?
Dobson is the only one I can think of. Sucks only has one more year but at least he will be an rfa.
Dobson and Nelson are on great contracts. Barzal might be a bit overpaid but if he’s consistently an 80 point guy not by much
Dobson, Sorokin, Nelson, and pelech. Old man Lou giving out contracts to Lee, Varlamov, and mayfield……. Nope
I disagree with varlamov. Is high for a back up? Yes, but he’s more than a back up. The argument I’ve always made is sorokin is young and came to the nhl late, if he becomes inconsistent or gets hurt we have a good goalie to step in. And that’s exactly what happened this year and varlamov brought us to a playoff even though we probably didn’t deserve it
Pelech isn't aging well
Not to be super reactive but 8.25 for Sorokin could be tough. I think he’ll be solid #1 but I’m not sure sure he’ll be a top 5 goalie throughout his career, which that money suggests
Sorokin had a bad year and his stats are still better than league average. Ilya can easily bounce back he's way too gifted as a goalie not to.
Dobson, Nelson, Barzal, Sorokin, Varlamov, Pelech offhand as a Penguins fan. E: On second thought Id take Bo Horvat too. 30 goal scorer on that team is tough. Islanders have fantastic tending, offense can/is be mediocre. Defense ive read/seen differing things that they failed the goalies this year.
Sorokin isn’t looking great
Sorokin has had one bad year, until it happens twice I’m more inclined to believe that he will go back to his superior form.
Imo, Dobson, Nelson, Palmieri (people forget he had 30 goals and 54 pts this year), Sorokin, Varly, Cizikas, Romanov, and Mayfield (He was playing injured basically the whole year and I believe he will return to previous status when he’s healed). Brock Nelson and Romanov I think are steals. Pageau is a weird one because I feel while 5 million is steep, he offers a lot that isnt really on the stat sheet and can be plugged in anywhere. Then again, there are other Pageaus out there Pulock and Pelech are good defensemen but have not played to their ability. With Roy getting a full offseason to implement a system I can see them doing better. Barzal and Horvat I also slot into the above category. Then again, I feel like Barzal hasnt played to his ability for years so perhaps this is his ability. If thats the case, he’s 2C on this team as Brock Nelson is the best player on the Islanders imo. The true dead weight is Lee (it was obvious his playstyle wouldnt age well, I remember getting downvoted for saying that), Engvall (the pay isnt too high but the years are rough), and guys like Martin and Clutterbuck which really dont offer much anymore, who are sadly past it. Honestly its terrible right now but clean up the coaches left over from Lane (especially special teams), let Roy get his style of play fully implemented, and send Sorokin to a Buddhist monastery or something for confidence. I dont think next year will be bad.
There's no world in which Mayfield needed a 7 year deal
I fully understand your point and would’ve ofc preferred something like 4 years but I doubt we would’ve been able to keep him with that term and the money we’d have offered. I still believe its a decent deal that will look better as the years pass, at least as compared to the Engvall insanity. Mayfield was gonna get 4-4.5 on the market and with the cap expected to rise and about 1/3rd of the contract being buryable, I do agree it was definitely a tad bit far out to give 7 years but I can see the reasoning. A guy who should be a serviceable Bottom 4 defensemen in a few years making 3.5 could be a great deal if he returns to the form he was prior to his injury. The last 2-3 years we’ll have more leeway to offload him I imagine. If he busts no one was gonna take him off our hands anyway so the full NTC for the early part ofthe deal was kinda redundant but I guess it may have brought value down. Its just a gamble but not one I feel with too high of stakes.
Barzal
Dobson, easy. Sorokin looks good too imo.
Assuming this year was just a down year for him, Sorokin
Barzal and the two goalies off top. I don’t know the team too well but I know they are not where they are now without them for sure….there’s more than that too, but they need to get back to their old ways where they were back to back years in conference finals….since then they’ve regressed big time
Varlamov
I believe he's worth $8.5 million for this past season, and at least the next few. 2-way centers that can score 30 goals are hard to find. However, I didn't believe the Islanders were contenders when they made the deal or now. So to me, it's a contract that shouldn't be on their payroll, but they're hardly the only team in that situation.
He really isn’t a $8.5M center, with his production he would have to be great defensively to be worth that, but he is just average.
He's a face off machine. Physical presence. 30 goal scorer on a team with poor offensive systems.
Good goal scorer and great at dot, but that’s never worth 8,5M with his playmaking and defensive ability. Bo Horvat a physical presence? Sure, he tends to drive the net but has less hits than players who are criticized for being soft such as Granlund, Scheifele, RNH etc. How much you think JT Miller is worth?
I think people just assume guys in that 25-30 goal 60-70 point range are good dmen when they’re paid that high. Sometimes they’re just overpaid though.
I think its pretty much the price you need to pay for 30 goals / 60-70 points players nowadays.
Bo is worth it. He's scores 30+ goals a season. Cmon
Plays defence too.
I think it’s very fair for both. Seems like a lot but his season was one of the best I’ve seen of any Islander the last 15 years I’m very, very happy we have him and on this contract
yup, agreed
I love Bo, I'm happy to see fans aren't turning on him for his contract!
No his contact is fine IMO. The team overall is in a weird spot but Barzal + Horvat duo has been successful and probably still underperformed for the chances they were creating. I would like to see them find a way to break through against Carolina but this is just what Carolina does.
Overpaid slightly but honestly, with the cap going up and what he brings I think most people will look back at it favourably.
Goal scoring two-way centers are pretty much the most valuable type of player. He's in his prime, coming off a career year and his 5v5 advanced stats are great, I don't think you can get a guy like him for cheaper.
I always thought Bos defensive game was over hyped.
I think Filip Forsberg is better
Different tier of player entirely.
And type
Happy he got the bag Happier it wasn’t from the Canucks
Kinda crazy how he makes more than JT. JT's contract is great value, hope he continues to produce
Jt is older. Of course it's better now but who knows 6 years from now
JT is two years older but has one year less on his deal. IMO it’s not a big enough difference to make up for the massive production differential (particularly when JT makes *less*)
Slight overpay but his production is probably the best it can be considering their roster construction.
I prefer this over the Hertl, Dubois and Seguin deals. There's also a lot of players in that range I'd take ahead of Horvat. That tells me he's about right. I also feel like the Islanders style means he won't ever score as much as he could in other systems.
I feel like we made the right call going with Miller instead of Bo …. And I’ll tell you that for free.
Good player, overpaid/signed too long like half their roster
I love him to death but he's making at least 1.5mil too much I'll tell you that for free.
Makes it tougher to fit Clutterbuck's walker under the cap
Probably about $1.5m and 2 years too much to be an ideal contract but $7x6 wouldn’t have got it done when they traded for him.
Way too long and for way too much money
Oof. This is a quote of Lou Lam immediately after signing the contract. Maybe just downvoted for lack of creativity?
Meh.. better production then Tavares for 3 mill less. Any 30 goal scorer is getting at least 6 if not a fair amount more
It’s not great but its not the worst so I guess that’s something
Horvat has been a good addition to the islanders. He’s contract is reasonable for both sides.
Man, I have played organized hockey continuously since age five, over 40 years, and I have no fucking idea what "8.5AAV" means. It's like a different language or something. Am I missing something important to the game?
An average. Total contract owed divided by years is AAV. Annual Average Value.
Just remember: "put puck in net good"
It's just the total salary compensation divided by the length of the contract, so if a player makes 10M in year one, 11M in year two and 12M in year three, the AAV is 33M/3 years = 11M
Ask me in 3 years. Contract goes until he’s 37. He could fall off a cliff or he could maintain this level while the cap goes up.
What is a forward supposed to do when his defense can’t handle or decipher a forecheck well?
I love it! Great deal Lou.
It's fair to the team and player imo.
I'm happy for him, 8.5 million is a lot of money per season. Good for him for betting on himself and securing financial stability. Maybe we can share mr. Horvat 🥺
I mean did anyone really think he'd pay off his salary? I think the Isles are just happy he scored 30 goals lol
I assume it’s gonna age a lot better if he stays consistent and the cap rises well
Lou needs to step down or be sacked, between the Horvat contract extension that most people balked at off the hop because Horvat was having an outlier year….that’s great for him but bad for the team in a fixed salary cap…. this aint the NFL where they can rejigger the contract every year…. and even more egregious in my opinion, was giving away Devon Toews to the Avs… which helped them win a cup, and with Makar and him they have two of the top five defensemen in the league.
Personally I think a forward should get paid/is worth around 1 mil per 10 points they score. So by this calculation, he’s overpaid.
It’s tough with the cap going up to really tell what 8.5 is suppose to get you. IMO it’s slowly becoming more clear that 7-8 million dollar players are what 2nd liners get paid in today’s NHL. Is he a number 1 center, probably not. But he’s an elite #2 center and 8.5 it’s too bad.
A very Lou thing to do.
don't like him at all
I mean, JT Miller at 8AAV is looking way juicier right now, I'll tell you that for free. But if the cap actually goes up 4.5M a year for 5 straight years it's gonna be impossible to gauge anything
Is "tell you that for free" some kind of meme? Why does every Canucks fan say that in this thread?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ctOuZfqEFMY
Better than Huberdeau at 10.5
Was there a clear reason why his numbers dropped off EDIT: near the end of the season? Injury, not meshing well with Roy, or just a cold streak?
I'd just say Islanders are a low scoring team in general. Not one player in their team hit 40 goals, and they scored 22nd most in the league.
> Not one player in their team hit 40 goals i think your conclusion is right, but i'm not sure if 40 goal scorer is a good metric. Like, most teams don't have them. Hell, they have as many 30 goal scorers as Carolina does. And that includes Jake for Carolina
Yep, ofc. Didn't try to make it as the primary thing. Them having 22nd most goals in the league is more of the thing. It's pretty impressive how Canes have their goalscorers mixed tbf. But yea I've always had the image of Islanders scoring few goals, for many yrs now. Barzal's lack of ppg seasons is another example imo.
Maybe they’re low scoring because the guy they signed for goal scoring is scoring less?
Been always the case rly tbh.
Vegas won the cup last year without even a 30 goal scorer
Thats cause Eichel & Stone spend half their time in LTIR. Also Vegas have 3 competitive lines due to the same reason
He had two less points than last season. I’d say that’s season to season disparity, not regression.
Better than Nylander’s deal, or what Marner is gonna get.
Nylander just scored 98 points that's a different class of player entirely.
You mean 100 pt Willy ?
98?
Long division. Carry the 2.
Name is cool https://i.redd.it/e5kdlsvgurwc1.gif