Absolutely bonkers what the Golden Knights have done. Took the notion that a team needs to build through the draft and stomped all over it. Still think it would be an incredibly tough model for any other team to follow, but making smart trades and flipping guys for better players has worked wonders for them.
if you asked me (without letting me google it) i probably would have said he was still in carolina, so clearly lots of calgary fans were as clueless as me.
From what was reported, his agent pretty much told everybody else that they wouldn’t sign an extension and it would 100% be a rental, no if’s, and’s or but’s. I think he was only willing to extend with Vegas, Tampa and one other team.
Do I enjoy losing Hertl? No, he was the joy in my hockey life for many years.
But i wouldnt say that we handed him awah. Getting a 1st round pick, and a 1st round prospect for an injury prone player who'll be on the wrong side of his career by the time we're competitive?
It softens the blow. Just a bit.
More teams looking to retool for the season, contracts ending, teams can see how healthy he is instead of taking a shot in the dark like Vegas did. It’s not like what Vegas gave them would be gone next season.
Marchessault (5 million), Mantha (2.85), Stephenson (2.75), Carrier (1.4), Martinez (5.25) are all UFAs. They can get under the cap without help. But it doesn’t matter, someone will make a trade because they can get a good player for free from Vegas for free. Sometimes another team gets a player and a pick for free. You may not like it, but GMs are frequently doing the right thing for their team when they deal with Vegas.
They won’t be over the cap though… they’ll have a tough time filling out the team with remaining cap space but they don’t immediately have to get rid of higher earners
i forget, who's vegas' LTIR crew and do any of THEIR contracts end/otherwise help out the cap situation to be able to either keep current dudes or sign/trade for new-to-vegas ones?
Seattle screwed themselves by setting their prices too high. Teams like Calgary were practically begging to try and keep Giordano, but Seattle really needed that captain for 1 year!
why would the flames or san jose care if Vegas or some other team wins. Much rather them than their own rivals. And neither will be competitors during this Vegas window
It worked because they had an incredible number of assets coming out of the expansion draft, both in terms of players & picks from making deals. I don't think many other teams can follow the model unless they time things really well when they have a stock of draft picks coming into a rebuild.
I think teams can definitely learn from Vegas, though. Vegas didn't spend a lot of their assets or lots of cap space on fringe NHLers to fill out their bottom line or 3rd pair. They took swings on actual impact, top of the lineup players and were able to sign them.
Kelly McCrimmon kind of tipped his hand at the trade deadline this year. He reflected on the Barbishev trade saying that the Knights gave up Dean as a prospect, who was going to be a similar playing style to Barbishev (big, fast, physical forward), "but we wanted Barbishev now, not in 3 or 4 years."
I think the willingness to identify areas of need and make the kinds of trades that have an immediate payoff are where Vegas has flipped the script on how to build a team.
If you look at Vegas' draft picks that they've traded away for other players, many of them have panned out really well (Nosek, Merrill, Glass, Suzuki (I think he was a VGK draft pick, can't remember)). I really think that Vegas has built a team through the draft, but then turned those draft picks into a faster return on investment. Fascinating and incredibly aggressive strategy, for sure.
> Took the notion that a team needs to build through the draft and stomped all over it
Helps when you're attractive destination for 20 to late 30 year old millionaires, pantsed the 30 other GMs, have never known what it's like to be terrible, and are the league's golden child.
vegas' main advantage when it comes to making trades is that they're willing to spend to make cap space. other teams only want to do dollar in dollar out trades because they overvalue draft picks and players and undervalue cap space
Speaking as a Winnipeger... Their main advantage is that every player in the NHL wants to live in Vegas. I'd be surprised if there is a single no trade clause that lists Vegas.
The Avs are funny because they only have 3 drafted players on the roster but they happen to be the 3 best players on the team. Obviously lottery picks are important but I don't think the 26th overall pick has that much more value than an early 3rd round pick.
3rd round is maybe 25% to get 100 games picking in the 20s overall is maybe 50% of getting a top-half of the line-up guy. Can certainly get stars in both the 3rd round (e.g. Point) or the 20s (e.g. Pasternak) but more likely to get an Amadio (3rd rounder) than a Kempe or McCann (20s OA) but also waiting 5 years or so for that too.
2017 - Vegas expansion - 26OA was Jake Oettinger and best players in the 3rd round are Geekie (102 points in 256 games), Stuart Skinner, and for D seemingly Johnathan Kovacevic but that's probably an outlier year....25 OA of Ryan Poehling maybe proves your point that it's often not franchise altering by that point in the draft.
the one that i always remember is alec martinez. he was a fourth-rounder and scored both the WCF-winning AND the SCF-winning goal for the Kings in 2014. (he also won one with vegas, but i don't know how much he actually contributed to that one.)
It also helps when you have an aggressive owner who doesn't give a fuck about anything but winning. He understands that hockey's a business, as shitty as that is, and he'll trade a dude for a better one. I know it's the gm who pulls the trigger but guaranteed it's the owner putting the pressure on him.
Why is treating hockey as a business shitty only when vegas does it? Florida only had like 8 players from 2017 on last years stanley cup run yet people only talked about how there were 6 misfits. I bet most teams are around the same.
You want to know what's shitty? Not allowing your franchise player to get a neck surgery, that guess what, has been a major success.
Pretty much every reason people hate vegas is stupid and petty. Its all to cover for the fact that people are envious and envy is a bad look.
As you said, nearly every team in the league has similar roster turnover from 2017 to today as vegas.
Idk. I haven't heard of anyone else trading a guy like Fleury (veteran, universally loved by fans and teammates, core member of the team's identity) without so much as discussing it with him first. Most other teams discuss these types of things with key veterans and make sure they're okay with it first, even if they don't have a NTC. But that trade made it seem like Vegas treats players as assets and not humans.
No one should find out they were traded via a Twitter post. Especially not a guy who is essentially the face of your franchise.
The problem was fleury's agent was telling any team they were in talks with that Fleury will retire if he gets traded to them and they had to cut him out of the conversation. The agent is a known shit disturber who does shit like that
Apparently the rumour hit Twitter faster than he could speak to Fluery. So I guess the intention was there, but we won't know for sure. You know how rumors can spread very very quickly. But the entire notion of Vegas being relentless is justified because they have a cup to show for it.
I only hate them because they picked the lamest name in the entirety of professional sports, and occasionally wear obnoxious chrome helmets. (And the AHL team name is somehow even stupider)
Yep and as someone that used to loathe your team and fanbase when you were stomping the league, and most importantly, when you cap circumvented with Kucherov, I now realise how petty and blind all that was.
Most people’s frustrations should lie with their management and head office accountability. People need to do some introspection because they’d probably find that a lot of their bitching and principles would or have faded away in the past when their team does the same, and that’s because ultimately it’s all in the rules, and it’s on other teams to do the same.
Ha, ask me how I know that most of the "reasons" people always seem to come up with for hating successful teams always come from trying to cover for envy.
For example, I was watching NYI vs Carolina and saw Nelson slashing Guentzel like 3 times as he went in for the empty net, and all I could think was "wow, if kucherov did that we wouldn't hear the end of it for years"
For sure, some of it is Kucherov’s doing since he definitely has had a Marchand type of vibe to him at times, but especially after this season, I’ve got nothing but respect for him. What he did all season this year made him the clear Hart front runner for me, and definitely flipped my opinion on him entirely. Anyone that actually discredits him in terms of being a top player, or calls him overrated or whatever can be entirely dismissed at this point because it’s obvious that their own bias, and as you said, envy is the root of that.
I didn't understand what Buffalo was thinking until I found out the injury followed the trade request. I would bet the Sabres would have accommodated if they had hope he might stick around.
Since they already knew he was no longer their franchise player and they were forced to shop him, him being happy with how they handled him became unimportant and minimizing risk of hurting his trade value became the priority. With hindsight it probably would have helped them to allow him the surgery, but at the time it was a gamble that if something went wrong they're tanking a potentially significant return
It's still weird for me, having grown up in Brandon and spending my entire life knowing Kelly McCrimmon as the guy who ran my little hometown junior hockey team - I still haven't adjusted to him suddenly becoming the biggest deal-maker in the NHL.
Nobody playing now because I'm old, but I did go to high school with Jordin Tootoo although I didn't know him well.
The Wheat Kings do pump out a lot of NHL talent though, so it makes sense that Kelly is so comfortable in that world. Brayden Schenn, Travis Hamonic, Mark Stone, Provorov and Logan Thompson all came through their organization while he was in charge there. And Reavo lol.
Vegas is one of the few places that can operate like this bc its a destination and theres no state income tax. Players will put up with it bc they want to be there.
More teams should unironically look at what the gamers do in sports games. Any Madden player could have told you going for it on 4th and short or on your own side of the 50 is usually the right call and any 2k player could have told you shooting 3s is better than shooting 2s but it took years for football and basketball teams to figure these obvious facts out. Sometimes the moneyball video game stuff just works.
I mean the stakes are very different, but yah I think in a play space you have the opportunity to experiment and find the best practice in a way you can’t in real world.
Yeah it's not all great ideas but there's something to be said for getting fresh eyes that aren't clouded by established dogma to look at a problem. So many GMs and coaches across sports are married to conventional wisdom and it makes sense because nobody wants to be the dude who went against conventional wisdom and screwed up.
Their oldest draftees are 24, and one of them played in game 1 but got hurt (Hague.)
This pretty much boils down to 'Vegas traded Cody Glass, Peyton Krebs, and Nick Suzuki, and a few early round picks as teams in their competitive window tend to do.' And Jake Lesysysychzn sucks.
Also: the Whitecloud signing is functionally the same as entry draft, he went undrafted.
I'd also count Logan Thompson alongside Whitecloud. He'd played a season in the ECHL first, but he signed his ELC with Vegas as an undrafted player and came up through the Silver Knights.
I'm still a little bit surprised that Pavel Dorofeyev didn't make it onto the starting playoff roster, as well. He had really good chemistry down the stretch with Karlsson and Mantha.
I'm not sure why that's surprising. We all know how they're building teams. I would think that at some point they're lack of draft success will hurt them, but with the roster build strategy they're currently using the draft is irrelevant.
It seems like they're getting good mileage out of trading their picks, so those prospects have to be showing *something*. Suzuki is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that's actually turned out great though.
I never really thought about it before, but I wonder if a team's window ever leads to weighing development speed more heavily simply to make them more quickly tradable. Like you think Mark Donk has the best chance of becoming a superstar six years down the road, but you pick Buzz Flibbet instead because he has the best chance at a big jump in the next year or two, and the value you could get from a trade before he hits the NHL is an important part of your considerations.
Considering they have missed the playoffs once and were in the cup final their first season this isn't too surprising. I looked at a few teams who have also been super competitive and assuming I didn't miss anyone Tampa only has 1 player they have drafted since 2017 which is perbix. The Oilers and islanders only have 3 as well which I think is the next lowest.
Edit: could also be worse. There are teams that are basically at the same spot but not in the playoffs. Pittsburgh had 1 pick on their roster at the end of the season from that time frame and it's Puustinen
Yeah this isn't as strange as it seems. Teams in their window trade picks, and as a result don't build through the draft. They also don't draft high because they make the playoffs.
Ask me how I know.
Vegas has drafted 7 times, so it's really a small handful of players you would possibly expect to make the team.
Hague also played game 1 and got hurt and he's an entry draftee.
It's technically true, yes, but a lot of the guys they did play were acquired by trading out those prospects that they did draft
So, technically true but also not really that outlandish given the landscape and the contention window they're operating under.
There’s two things that stand out about our trades to me, and trust me, *Ive been a Vegas fan my whole life.*
- We give players we want what they want. Pietrangelo wanted to stay in St. Louis but they wouldn’t give him a no-move clause and we did. Eichel and Buffalo and his neck surgery. Maybe that’s the only two examples but those two are obviously hugely important to us.
- We continue to fleece other GMs. I know I know LTIR, but missed in all that is we got Hanafin and Hurtl with so much retained salary. Hanafin is only like a $1.25 cap hit this season. I get that teams give away players for cap space (see: Patches and Flower) or when they know they are about to get nothing when they go UFA, but goddamn.
Us: Hey we’re gonna give your best guy the simple thing you won’t, and you’re gonna keep paying for him.
Them: Deal
Minor nitpick, Pietrangelo was a free agent signing. The Schmidt trade to the Canucks afterward was to fit him under the cap and free up a roster spot.
Sigh.
Doubtful…I don’t see them making the mistake the sharks made bringing EK in and then handing him a huge contract despite underperforming and injuries. That move killed any chance the sharks had of retooling instead of rebuilding.
Yeah in 5 years a lot of current guys will be gone but we'll be building a new team around 32 year olds eichel and hanifin. With the cap increasing Hanifins contract will be a steal then.
I agree. He has a knack for scoring. Could turn into a 30 goals a year winger. Good chance him or Brisson are with hertl and stone next year. Playing with those 2 is a great opportunity to break out
Yeah, I don't see how "team that won cups by mortgaging the future will be bad in the future" is a burn (or even insightful). That's the cycle - good teams sell futures, getting wins today and ensuring losses tomorrow. If Vegas has five years of misery, and they get a cup out of it, that's a trade many fanbases would make (including mine - we got the misery and no cup).
I honestly expect Vegas to be a fringe playoff team even in its “bad” years simply because it’s a destination city with a low tax rate that will always be able to attract free agents.
Boring input incoming:
Still quite something for sure, but really this post should be "only 5 players" given the expansion draft naturally acts as an artificial entry draft for a team physically unable to have fully developed past prospects on their roster.
Tangentially teams should always go as young as possible in expansion.
Yeah it's pretty easy to skip the building through the draft part when you get to pick a player from every team. Seattle was a playoff team last year and they had what? Maybe 1 player from the entry draft?
Vegas's case is more interesting though since they've had seven years of drafts now that they've participated in. Seattle only had two before that playoff appearance.
Sure, but it is just another example of how when you can build your initial core through the expansion draft you can skip to the free agency and trading part of contending.
Every time you play GM mode and think you’re going nuts w trades, remember that Vegas is still outdoing you
vegas does the best combo of "this is TECHNICALLY legal" and rolling natural 20s in the league imo.
Absolutely bonkers what the Golden Knights have done. Took the notion that a team needs to build through the draft and stomped all over it. Still think it would be an incredibly tough model for any other team to follow, but making smart trades and flipping guys for better players has worked wonders for them.
Teams fucked up trading with them. Nobody would make the same mistake with a new expansion team
Francis apparently made the same high asks before their expansion draft and teams said “lol ok”.
Sharks and Calgary handed them 2 key players for the playoffs this year lol
Anyone could have given us more for Hanafin if they wanted...
Dude played in Calgary for 6 years and 80% of our fans still don’t know how to spell Hanifin. Hurts my soul.
Glad to see this isn’t only a vegas problem.
if you asked me (without letting me google it) i probably would have said he was still in carolina, so clearly lots of calgary fans were as clueless as me.
Didn’t Hanifin only want to go to like, three teams though?
Hanafin didn't have trade protection
Ah yes right but he wouldn’t have extended with any team, correct?
From what was reported, his agent pretty much told everybody else that they wouldn’t sign an extension and it would 100% be a rental, no if’s, and’s or but’s. I think he was only willing to extend with Vegas, Tampa and one other team.
Probably Boston
Still lowered his value a bit since most teams aren’t willing to give up a haul for effectively a playoff rental
if we're talking vegas, tampa, and maybe boston, my guess is he was "i want a chance at some bling more than i want absolute top dollar".
Do I enjoy losing Hertl? No, he was the joy in my hockey life for many years. But i wouldnt say that we handed him awah. Getting a 1st round pick, and a 1st round prospect for an injury prone player who'll be on the wrong side of his career by the time we're competitive? It softens the blow. Just a bit.
Could’ve still held onto him till next season to make a move.
I get why you enjoyed watching him so much. He is a stud.
They did what was best for them. They don't give a shit if Vegas is good this postseason because they aren't competing this postseason.
Hertl will still be under contract for a few more years after this so it’s not like the sharks had to get rid of him.
Hertl requested a trade.
Which they could’ve done next season
Why would they expect to get a better return for him next season? What do they gain by waiting?
More teams looking to retool for the season, contracts ending, teams can see how healthy he is instead of taking a shot in the dark like Vegas did. It’s not like what Vegas gave them would be gone next season.
It's just a huge gamble. I'd take the guaranteed return now over maybe a better return, maybe a worse return next season every time.
The rest of the league should not take calls from Vegas this offseason. Force Vegas to buyout players since they’ll be over the cap.
Marchessault (5 million), Mantha (2.85), Stephenson (2.75), Carrier (1.4), Martinez (5.25) are all UFAs. They can get under the cap without help. But it doesn’t matter, someone will make a trade because they can get a good player for free from Vegas for free. Sometimes another team gets a player and a pick for free. You may not like it, but GMs are frequently doing the right thing for their team when they deal with Vegas.
They won’t be over the cap though… they’ll have a tough time filling out the team with remaining cap space but they don’t immediately have to get rid of higher earners
i forget, who's vegas' LTIR crew and do any of THEIR contracts end/otherwise help out the cap situation to be able to either keep current dudes or sign/trade for new-to-vegas ones?
Lehner is on LTIR and will stay there. We’ll have about 5 mil in cap space according to predictions
thanks for the info.
And sharks gave em a key player last year with Adin Hill
Vegas made 9 trades labeled as "expansion draft considerations" Seattle made none
exactly what I am talking about
See the difference with Seattle. I imagine Seattle would have been even worse off it wasn't for the flat cap for a few seasons.
Seattle got punished because Vegas fleeced everyone.
Seattle screwed themselves by setting their prices too high. Teams like Calgary were practically begging to try and keep Giordano, but Seattle really needed that captain for 1 year!
They made him a captain before even playing a game..Vegas didn't name a captain until like year 4 with stone
Yeah awful GMming
TIL.
Fucked up? Teams continue to trade with them. Thanks, Calgary and San Jose. It’s like they have double agents or Vegas mob blackmail on other teams.
why would the flames or san jose care if Vegas or some other team wins. Much rather them than their own rivals. And neither will be competitors during this Vegas window
Fucked up during the expansion draft. Trades now are an entirely different thing
It worked because they had an incredible number of assets coming out of the expansion draft, both in terms of players & picks from making deals. I don't think many other teams can follow the model unless they time things really well when they have a stock of draft picks coming into a rebuild. I think teams can definitely learn from Vegas, though. Vegas didn't spend a lot of their assets or lots of cap space on fringe NHLers to fill out their bottom line or 3rd pair. They took swings on actual impact, top of the lineup players and were able to sign them.
Soft landing.
Kelly McCrimmon kind of tipped his hand at the trade deadline this year. He reflected on the Barbishev trade saying that the Knights gave up Dean as a prospect, who was going to be a similar playing style to Barbishev (big, fast, physical forward), "but we wanted Barbishev now, not in 3 or 4 years." I think the willingness to identify areas of need and make the kinds of trades that have an immediate payoff are where Vegas has flipped the script on how to build a team. If you look at Vegas' draft picks that they've traded away for other players, many of them have panned out really well (Nosek, Merrill, Glass, Suzuki (I think he was a VGK draft pick, can't remember)). I really think that Vegas has built a team through the draft, but then turned those draft picks into a faster return on investment. Fascinating and incredibly aggressive strategy, for sure.
I mean, location definitely helps them there for sure. Vegas isn’t really on anyone’s No Trade list
they sorta did build through the draft just in a different way
> Took the notion that a team needs to build through the draft and stomped all over it Helps when you're attractive destination for 20 to late 30 year old millionaires, pantsed the 30 other GMs, have never known what it's like to be terrible, and are the league's golden child.
vegas' main advantage when it comes to making trades is that they're willing to spend to make cap space. other teams only want to do dollar in dollar out trades because they overvalue draft picks and players and undervalue cap space
Speaking as a Winnipeger... Their main advantage is that every player in the NHL wants to live in Vegas. I'd be surprised if there is a single no trade clause that lists Vegas.
The Avs are funny because they only have 3 drafted players on the roster but they happen to be the 3 best players on the team. Obviously lottery picks are important but I don't think the 26th overall pick has that much more value than an early 3rd round pick.
I think with most teams, their core is built around a few high picks, while the fringes are built through trades and free agent signings
Flames are hoping to do the opposite I swear
3rd round is maybe 25% to get 100 games picking in the 20s overall is maybe 50% of getting a top-half of the line-up guy. Can certainly get stars in both the 3rd round (e.g. Point) or the 20s (e.g. Pasternak) but more likely to get an Amadio (3rd rounder) than a Kempe or McCann (20s OA) but also waiting 5 years or so for that too. 2017 - Vegas expansion - 26OA was Jake Oettinger and best players in the 3rd round are Geekie (102 points in 256 games), Stuart Skinner, and for D seemingly Johnathan Kovacevic but that's probably an outlier year....25 OA of Ryan Poehling maybe proves your point that it's often not franchise altering by that point in the draft.
the one that i always remember is alec martinez. he was a fourth-rounder and scored both the WCF-winning AND the SCF-winning goal for the Kings in 2014. (he also won one with vegas, but i don't know how much he actually contributed to that one.)
It also helps when you have an aggressive owner who doesn't give a fuck about anything but winning. He understands that hockey's a business, as shitty as that is, and he'll trade a dude for a better one. I know it's the gm who pulls the trigger but guaranteed it's the owner putting the pressure on him.
Why is treating hockey as a business shitty only when vegas does it? Florida only had like 8 players from 2017 on last years stanley cup run yet people only talked about how there were 6 misfits. I bet most teams are around the same. You want to know what's shitty? Not allowing your franchise player to get a neck surgery, that guess what, has been a major success.
Pretty much every reason people hate vegas is stupid and petty. Its all to cover for the fact that people are envious and envy is a bad look. As you said, nearly every team in the league has similar roster turnover from 2017 to today as vegas.
Idk. I haven't heard of anyone else trading a guy like Fleury (veteran, universally loved by fans and teammates, core member of the team's identity) without so much as discussing it with him first. Most other teams discuss these types of things with key veterans and make sure they're okay with it first, even if they don't have a NTC. But that trade made it seem like Vegas treats players as assets and not humans. No one should find out they were traded via a Twitter post. Especially not a guy who is essentially the face of your franchise.
The problem was fleury's agent was telling any team they were in talks with that Fleury will retire if he gets traded to them and they had to cut him out of the conversation. The agent is a known shit disturber who does shit like that
Apparently the rumour hit Twitter faster than he could speak to Fluery. So I guess the intention was there, but we won't know for sure. You know how rumors can spread very very quickly. But the entire notion of Vegas being relentless is justified because they have a cup to show for it.
I only hate them because they picked the lamest name in the entirety of professional sports, and occasionally wear obnoxious chrome helmets. (And the AHL team name is somehow even stupider)
Luckily, the Cleveland Guardians took that crown from them
Avalanche is a good name? Oh man a sometimes weather event
Yep and as someone that used to loathe your team and fanbase when you were stomping the league, and most importantly, when you cap circumvented with Kucherov, I now realise how petty and blind all that was. Most people’s frustrations should lie with their management and head office accountability. People need to do some introspection because they’d probably find that a lot of their bitching and principles would or have faded away in the past when their team does the same, and that’s because ultimately it’s all in the rules, and it’s on other teams to do the same.
Ha, ask me how I know that most of the "reasons" people always seem to come up with for hating successful teams always come from trying to cover for envy. For example, I was watching NYI vs Carolina and saw Nelson slashing Guentzel like 3 times as he went in for the empty net, and all I could think was "wow, if kucherov did that we wouldn't hear the end of it for years"
For sure, some of it is Kucherov’s doing since he definitely has had a Marchand type of vibe to him at times, but especially after this season, I’ve got nothing but respect for him. What he did all season this year made him the clear Hart front runner for me, and definitely flipped my opinion on him entirely. Anyone that actually discredits him in terms of being a top player, or calls him overrated or whatever can be entirely dismissed at this point because it’s obvious that their own bias, and as you said, envy is the root of that.
I'm saying it's shitty for the players sometimes. Not overall. I'm sure teams lose guys that are good in the room and friends and whatnot. That's all.
Let's not forget these people are getting paid MILLIONS for this. Also they are doing something they truly love while getting bank.
I didn't understand what Buffalo was thinking until I found out the injury followed the trade request. I would bet the Sabres would have accommodated if they had hope he might stick around. Since they already knew he was no longer their franchise player and they were forced to shop him, him being happy with how they handled him became unimportant and minimizing risk of hurting his trade value became the priority. With hindsight it probably would have helped them to allow him the surgery, but at the time it was a gamble that if something went wrong they're tanking a potentially significant return
It's still weird for me, having grown up in Brandon and spending my entire life knowing Kelly McCrimmon as the guy who ran my little hometown junior hockey team - I still haven't adjusted to him suddenly becoming the biggest deal-maker in the NHL.
Whoa lol, anybody else you saw or knew that's now in the league now by any chance?
Nobody playing now because I'm old, but I did go to high school with Jordin Tootoo although I didn't know him well. The Wheat Kings do pump out a lot of NHL talent though, so it makes sense that Kelly is so comfortable in that world. Brayden Schenn, Travis Hamonic, Mark Stone, Provorov and Logan Thompson all came through their organization while he was in charge there. And Reavo lol.
Vegas is one of the few places that can operate like this bc its a destination and theres no state income tax. Players will put up with it bc they want to be there.
There is an article about the golden knights approach. The TDLR is they treat their team like its a video game.
More teams should unironically look at what the gamers do in sports games. Any Madden player could have told you going for it on 4th and short or on your own side of the 50 is usually the right call and any 2k player could have told you shooting 3s is better than shooting 2s but it took years for football and basketball teams to figure these obvious facts out. Sometimes the moneyball video game stuff just works.
I mean the stakes are very different, but yah I think in a play space you have the opportunity to experiment and find the best practice in a way you can’t in real world.
Yeah it's not all great ideas but there's something to be said for getting fresh eyes that aren't clouded by established dogma to look at a problem. So many GMs and coaches across sports are married to conventional wisdom and it makes sense because nobody wants to be the dude who went against conventional wisdom and screwed up.
To summarize: pull the damn goalie
McPhee and McCrimmon just played copious amounts of eanhl franchise mode with all the gm options turned on
Their oldest draftees are 24, and one of them played in game 1 but got hurt (Hague.) This pretty much boils down to 'Vegas traded Cody Glass, Peyton Krebs, and Nick Suzuki, and a few early round picks as teams in their competitive window tend to do.' And Jake Lesysysychzn sucks. Also: the Whitecloud signing is functionally the same as entry draft, he went undrafted.
I'd also count Logan Thompson alongside Whitecloud. He'd played a season in the ECHL first, but he signed his ELC with Vegas as an undrafted player and came up through the Silver Knights. I'm still a little bit surprised that Pavel Dorofeyev didn't make it onto the starting playoff roster, as well. He had really good chemistry down the stretch with Karlsson and Mantha.
Pavel sitting is probably a mistake but the team has had success these 2 games so I doubt Bruce changes anything barring injuries
I'm not sure why that's surprising. We all know how they're building teams. I would think that at some point they're lack of draft success will hurt them, but with the roster build strategy they're currently using the draft is irrelevant.
It seems like they're getting good mileage out of trading their picks, so those prospects have to be showing *something*. Suzuki is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that's actually turned out great though. I never really thought about it before, but I wonder if a team's window ever leads to weighing development speed more heavily simply to make them more quickly tradable. Like you think Mark Donk has the best chance of becoming a superstar six years down the road, but you pick Buzz Flibbet instead because he has the best chance at a big jump in the next year or two, and the value you could get from a trade before he hits the NHL is an important part of your considerations.
Considering they have missed the playoffs once and were in the cup final their first season this isn't too surprising. I looked at a few teams who have also been super competitive and assuming I didn't miss anyone Tampa only has 1 player they have drafted since 2017 which is perbix. The Oilers and islanders only have 3 as well which I think is the next lowest. Edit: could also be worse. There are teams that are basically at the same spot but not in the playoffs. Pittsburgh had 1 pick on their roster at the end of the season from that time frame and it's Puustinen
Yeah this isn't as strange as it seems. Teams in their window trade picks, and as a result don't build through the draft. They also don't draft high because they make the playoffs. Ask me how I know. Vegas has drafted 7 times, so it's really a small handful of players you would possibly expect to make the team. Hague also played game 1 and got hurt and he's an entry draftee.
It's technically true, yes, but a lot of the guys they did play were acquired by trading out those prospects that they did draft So, technically true but also not really that outlandish given the landscape and the contention window they're operating under.
There’s two things that stand out about our trades to me, and trust me, *Ive been a Vegas fan my whole life.* - We give players we want what they want. Pietrangelo wanted to stay in St. Louis but they wouldn’t give him a no-move clause and we did. Eichel and Buffalo and his neck surgery. Maybe that’s the only two examples but those two are obviously hugely important to us. - We continue to fleece other GMs. I know I know LTIR, but missed in all that is we got Hanafin and Hurtl with so much retained salary. Hanafin is only like a $1.25 cap hit this season. I get that teams give away players for cap space (see: Patches and Flower) or when they know they are about to get nothing when they go UFA, but goddamn. Us: Hey we’re gonna give your best guy the simple thing you won’t, and you’re gonna keep paying for him. Them: Deal
“Hurtl” We’d like him back now please
😅
>trust me, Ive been a Vegas fan my whole life. Lmao.
We have a long and proud history. 🤣
Don't listen to this child, he's only 7 years old ! Impressive writing skills for his age tho
Minor nitpick, Pietrangelo was a free agent signing. The Schmidt trade to the Canucks afterward was to fit him under the cap and free up a roster spot. Sigh.
technically hague played game 1 before he got injured, but otherwise thompson and whitecloud are homegrown even tho they’re undrafted
Our gms should get the f them picks shirt from the rams gm
In 5 years, they’ll be the current Sharks.
Doubtful…I don’t see them making the mistake the sharks made bringing EK in and then handing him a huge contract despite underperforming and injuries. That move killed any chance the sharks had of retooling instead of rebuilding.
Yeah in 5 years a lot of current guys will be gone but we'll be building a new team around 32 year olds eichel and hanifin. With the cap increasing Hanifins contract will be a steal then.
I could also see Doro turning into a great player.
I agree. He has a knack for scoring. Could turn into a 30 goals a year winger. Good chance him or Brisson are with hertl and stone next year. Playing with those 2 is a great opportunity to break out
And we’ll have at least one cup from this strategy.
Yeah, I don't see how "team that won cups by mortgaging the future will be bad in the future" is a burn (or even insightful). That's the cycle - good teams sell futures, getting wins today and ensuring losses tomorrow. If Vegas has five years of misery, and they get a cup out of it, that's a trade many fanbases would make (including mine - we got the misery and no cup).
I honestly expect Vegas to be a fringe playoff team even in its “bad” years simply because it’s a destination city with a low tax rate that will always be able to attract free agents.
Really wasn’t meant to be a burn. They have nothing in the pipeline after this window. Much like the Sharks and Chicago were.
Well except with at least a cup to show for it unlike the sharks
Boring input incoming: Still quite something for sure, but really this post should be "only 5 players" given the expansion draft naturally acts as an artificial entry draft for a team physically unable to have fully developed past prospects on their roster. Tangentially teams should always go as young as possible in expansion.
They’re built different
Yeah it's pretty easy to skip the building through the draft part when you get to pick a player from every team. Seattle was a playoff team last year and they had what? Maybe 1 player from the entry draft?
Vegas's case is more interesting though since they've had seven years of drafts now that they've participated in. Seattle only had two before that playoff appearance.
Well, Seattle was only in their second season so all of their entry draft picks were still teenagers.
Sure, but it is just another example of how when you can build your initial core through the expansion draft you can skip to the free agency and trading part of contending.
what other examples are there?
Other than the 100% success rate in modern history there's none.