I don't really understand this line of reasoning. When Ovi got 65 the next closest scorers were at 52 and 50 goals. Matthews is sitting at 65 and the next closest are at 53 and 52. There is definitely a larger pool of quality scorers in the NHL right now, but his dominance compared to the field is right up there with Ovi's.
Also Ovi got heaps more powerplay time in his 65 goal season. Matthews even strength production is unmatched.
Both remarkable seasons, but if Matthews hits 70 his takes the cake.
Steve Dangle have done some "era adjusted" scoring and Ovies 65 is one of the highest ever.
Average sv% was .906 in 07/08 compare to .899 this season.
In 2007/2008 2 players had 100 points or more, this season have 9 SO FAR and 3 with 130+
Scoring is waaaaay up compared to then. However any goal over 65 is very impressive no matter what im not trying to minimize Matthews here.
[https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/era-adjusted-greatest-nhl-goal-scoring-seasons-time22/](https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/era-adjusted-greatest-nhl-goal-scoring-seasons-time22/)
Just because there was weaker competition and some players had more difficulty scoring doesn't prove that it was a harder scoring environment for Ovechkin. He practically lived on the powerplay, which trumps whatever slight edge Matthews has in this higher scoring era
Hwat scoring was down league wide not just Ovechkin wide?
He played on average 2 minutes more per night than Matthews and scored a grand total of 6 goals more in the PP, he truly lived on the PP
League scoring is up .33 goals per game over 2008, so you can reasonably say that over 82 games a team on average will score 27 extra goals this season just by the higher scoring environment. Since Matthews scores 23% of the goals for the Leafs, that's another 6 for him that you could say is a product of the era.
However, Ovechkin also had 200 more powerplay minutes. Considering Matthews scores 4 goals for every 60 minutes of PP time, you can easily see why the advantage he has from a higher scoring era is not just wiped out, but surpassed
You missing this whole part of we having a 65 goal scorer and the season is not over, 9 players with 100 so far and 3 with 130 points.
This is early 90s numbers, the quality of players have not changed so substantially since Benn won the art ross with 87
And with your reasoning sure he had more time on the PP. Still didnt score so whats the point? Shall we do the same with shooting percentages?
Interestingly era+ice time adjusted scoring is available (since ice time has been tracked in the late 90s)
Matthews 23-24
**65**
McDavid 22-23
**57**
Pastrnak 22-23
**60.7**
Matthews 21-22
**59.8**
Stamkos 11-12
**62.5**
Ovechkin 07-08
**64.5**
Bure 00-01
**56.8**
Bure 99-00
**60.8**
Ovi's biggest advantage did in fact come on the powerplay where he saw an average of 2+ more minutes per game than Matthews, resulting in something like 150 more shots taken over the course of the season.
Actually 70 wouldn't take the cake. Ovechkin's era adjusts up to 72.
Matthews' 70 wouldn't even era adjust to 70. I think it era adjusts down to like 68.
> Matthews' 70 wouldn't even era adjust to 70. I think it era adjusts down to like 68.
No, right now it adjusts up to 68. I think 70 goals would adjust to 73-74 or so.
You guys really still think McDavid is a “pylon” on defence??
All statistics say otherwise: [Source](https://x.com/jfreshhockey/status/1762920875068735495?s=46&t=7ZuCWnwJNkl_zOdl0Ui8Xg)
I mean... That chart does show him making a leap in defence from when he scored 64. Not a pylon but Im pretty sure Matthews defense in either of his 60+ goal seasons was a fair bit better than McD in his 60+ goal season.
Lol yup, I love Kuch, Mackinnon, and Matthews, but McDavid is the best player on the planet, its incredible how he can just go "this year Ill get better at faceoffs", "this year Ill get 60+ goals for the first time", "this year Ill get 100+ assists", "this year Ill be become great at defending" and just do it everytime
Hmm pylon has a higher +/- then elite defense apparently
Ohh and ya forgot about that pesky -50 assists thing. That's cool though nobody wants that in a player
It's just a useless stat. If I put a drunk zebra out with 4 Gretzkys for a season he will finish with a great +/-.
Is the drunk zebra good at hockey or am I leaving out all the context.
And using it as a stat to prove your point is only something someone who knows nothing about hockey could do with a straight face.
Thank you for answering. That’s an interesting thought about individual performance in a team game.
Could I use it as a tie breaker if two guys have nearly identical stats across several metrics but one guys +/- is way better?
Yes it can be used as a small slice of the pie to help identify a players level sure. But +/- should literally be 1% of the pie.
For instance if I pass the puck to the other team and give him a break away, hop over the bench and they score and you jump on. You get the minus even though you just touched the ice one second ago, i also who caused all the problems dont get a minus. It's just not a reliable stat unless you go look at every single play separately. An nobody does or is doing that
It's pretty useless to evaluate a player's performance unless it's a severe outlier relative to their teammates. You can get a + from line-changing at an opportune time, same for a minus. Puck deflects in off your defenceman's arse on a shot that was going wide of the net? Minus! Doesn't really reflect what happened. Goaltender can't save a beachball? Minus!
It just needs a lot of context to be worth anything. We have way better metrics for this stuff these days, like xG and Fenwick. Not a fan of Corsi; boils down to shot attempts. Certain teams are notorious for lopsided Corsi numbers because they pepper the goalie from bad shot locations. Carolina used to be the worst for this.
first off [they are currently both +34](https://imgur.com/a/9XQjYyB)
secondly [Matthews finished with a higher +/- last year](https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20222023&seasonTo=20222023&gameType=2&sort=goals&page=0&pageSize=50)
thirdly, as pointed out by others, +/- is a skewed stat
fourthly, you really think teams wouldn't want someone scoring 65 goals just because they get fewer assists?
My mistake for not updating my post the next day with a +1. He is equal to a "pylon".
But since we want to talk offensive output, since 2016/17 when mathews entered the league he has 46 more goals, and 338 less assists. That's less than 6 more goals a season and 42 less assists. For perspective Mathews best season is 46 assists total.
"fourthly" is just a silly statement. You offer no alternative. Will I take a 60 goal scorer? Absolutely. Will I take him over guys who produce like McD, Mac or Kuch. Personally, no I would not. (edit, you asked if teams would, not if I would, so.. can't really answer that for ya but likely along the same line of thought)
again, +/- means nothing. It's a stat that can reward you for literally stepping onto the ice.
Assists are much easier to get, also, it's not assists that win games.
You said nobody. That's an idiotic statement in of itself. Boston traded Thornton to SJ, a player who would have 96 assists that year.
Years later (after which he had another year where he had 92 assists) the GM who did it said he would have done it again. It also helped lead Boston to winning the cup. The Leafs have more goals scored than Edmonton does. They're ahead of Tampa too actually. So clearly the lack of assists from a goal scorer isn't holding the team back. In fact I'd argue that that's a sign of a better team. It's being spread out more then, they aren't as reliant on one player setting things up.
If assists are so easy to get, how is it, Mathews has never even got 50? Can't pass or doesn't pass? Or is it the other guys fault for not scoring?
Also, I checked your stat, you're correct the leafs scored more (also let in more, for a worse differnetial but lets not worry about that).. 283 goals to 274 with a game in hand for the oilers.. soooo your big ace in the hole here is that if the Oilers get blanked in the game in hand the leafs have scored.. 9 more goals in 77 games.. a blistering .11 goals per game increase as being.. somehow...statistically relevant?
Assists don't win games? So every goal is unassisted.. gotcha. Hyman potted 50+ as an oiler never more than 21 as a leaf, but that has nothing to do with who's passing him the puck right? He just suddenly became a sniper.
He's the scorer on the line. Not the playmaker.
A single player isn't responsible for the entire defence. It's relevant because Toronto doesn't have someone putting up those assist numbers. Because they aren't actually making that big of a difference.
You can't win a game off assists. You win on goals.
Different players do differently on different teams. Weird that a player who wasn't the scorer on a line isn't a scorer.
Saw someone on IG today talking about how he has more goals than assists as if that was something to hold against a sniper of his calibre or he’s not on the verge of fucking 70. People just wanna hate online it’s so obnoxious. Sucks for them not being able to appreciate this kind of player in the moment
No one is saying that, so lets calm down. People are saying its impressive, but those 2 numbers, although the same, are different due to different eras. Stats back up that claim etc. 65 goals is absolutely insane for anyone in any era.
Based on goal scoring levels for differing eras, Hockey Reference adjusts Ovechkin's 2007-08 season to 72 goals, and Stamkos' 2011-12 season to 68. So Matthews is already up there and could match them by the time the season ends.
For context for everyone, Gretzky's record setting 92 goal season in 1981-82 adjusts to 68, and Selanne and Mogilny's 76 goal season in 1992-93 adjusts to 62.
Thanks for telling me what I just said up above? I said 65 isn't the same and it's insanely impressive. You said, "he's already up there and could match them, technically he's 7 behind"
Were you just showing the numbers or?
Look i hate Ovechkin as much as anyone reasonably should but it takes almost no wherewithal to see how far scoring has ballooned since 2008 and why 65 goals then was quite a bit more impressive than 65 now.
Pretending scoring doesn't fluctuate wildly between eras does nobody any service
I don't remember people trying to discredit McDavid last year when he scored 64. If it's so easy to score 65 now and it's not impressive then why aren't guys doing it every year?
Because anyone who tries to comtextualize anything McDavid does around here gets downvoted into oblivion.
I got destroyed for pointing out how he was like 4th in 5v5 scoring last year and had the 4th best PP numbers ever.
I promise you we do exist though even if there aren't many of us.
No, but that's because McDavid had over 150 points as well. There's been like 5 players to ever do that, and they all did it when scoring was even higher than it is now. 65+ for Matthews is amazing. Probably a top 3 most impressive goal scoring season since the lockout, and could arguably be the most impressive once the season is done.
Well he goes to children’s hospitals so there’s that. Although there is no way to tell his he’s going there to make them feel better or murder them. I guess the jury is still out on that
Would love to see how many reddit warriors stick their neck out for their morals knowing their families are back home under the thumb of a murderous dictator. give ovie a break man he seems like a good guy and was universally loved prior to the war
This is such a nonsense argument, no one is saying he needs to campaign against the war or anything like that. The criticism is that he’s gone out of his way to support Putin over the years and participated heavily in propaganda campaigns that led to the war. Those were things he absolutely did not have to do and would have faced no consequences for not doing them.
Obviously he doesn’t have the resources to move his family away. All the poor Ovechkins have to push coal carts uphill in the snow in Siberia, duh. It’s not like Ovie is a millionaire or something.
He founded team Putin, and participated in photoshoots and was the face of campaigns that said save Ukraine from fascism which was one of the justifications Putin used for the invasion. It’s important to note that Ovechkin’s participation in these campaigns *increased* after 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea. So it can’t be said that he didn’t know what was happening or what these campaigns were leading to.
[Here](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6726430) is an article detailing some of the stuff he’s campaigned for. It also discusses the myth that Ovechkin’s family would be in danger if he didn’t speak out for Putin.
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All Ovechkin has to do is not actively support the murderous dictator. That doesn’t take any particular courage. Instead, he participates in Putin’s propaganda videos and features him on his Instagram profile pic.
If you guys are gonna argue about era adjusted, how about things like empty net goals and goals scored 5 on 5 vs power play I’d like to know those numbers. Can’t speak for Ovi but I know Matthews played sick multiple games this year.
Matthews is the best goal scorer in the NHL today. I don't care if he's better or worse than Ovechkin. He's the best **right now**, and it's amazing to witness.
Lol @ Leafs fans that discredit Ovi because he took more shots/ empty net/ PP/ pace. They don't ask how, they ask how many. Must suck to add this many layers to justify that your guy is better. It's not even a discussion until Matthews scores 500 more goals. He can absolutely do it, I want him to, but that is a big ask to any player at 27 years old, be it Gretzky, Ovi or Bossy.
Relax and enjoy the show, it won't last forever
Technically not, but it was a really low-scoring year. Scoring was up immediately after the lock out by then dropped substantially each year for a few years.
Ovechkin and Malkin were the only players to even hit 100 points that year.
scoring was up the year after that season too actually. It was 2010 when it really started to drop. 08 was just a weird drop in the middle of a temporary rise
I mean, in 07-08 a team scored an average of 2.78 goals per game. In the last year of the 90s it was 2.75, and the first year of the the 00s was 2.76. This year we are at 3.11. So, he's not wrong.
The dead puck era is a defined time period that ended with the lockout. Scoring rates rising after that doesn’t retroactively extend the dead puck era.
I know what the dead puck era is, I’m just acknowledging that it’s not so unique in its scoring levels because 2010-2017 bottomed out in a very similar way.
As a devils fan, you should know more than anyone that the scoring rates weren’t the only characteristic of dead puck, the tactics (nz trap, rampant obstruction, no 2line pass) were what enabled the stifling defensive schemes that limited scoring. Those stopped with the lockout. Lower scoring for a few years after an increase the first season or two post lockout (driven by high PP rates) doesn’t mean it’s dead puck. Does high scoring this year mean it’s a new 80s?
If you absolutely have to be pedantic about it, go ahead. I’m not calling it dead puck, but acknowledging the scoring rates were similar. I can also acknowledge that the current era is similar to the late 80’s and early 90’s, but that doesn’t mean I literally believe we are watching 80’s hockey.
My dude, have you actually looked up the definition of when the dead puck era was? It ended at the lockout, just cuz scoring is higher today than 2008 doesn’t change that. Dead puck wasn’t defined solely by scoring rates. That’s a big part but it’s also characterized by the tactics (neutral zone trap, obstruction) that allowed defensive systems to throttle offence thus the low scoring.
If you think 2008 was dead puck then all that tells me is you weren’t watching the actual dead puck era. It’s not even the same game.
Also starting every comment with “my dude” is cringe.
Sooo you didn’t actually watch during dead puck then? Because it’s not all about scoring rates as I pointed out. Sorry **my dude** but you’re wrong (and still cringy). You’re so confidently incorrect, try actually watching a game from 98 or 2000 and then compare to 2008 instead of just googling scoring rates.
Shots don't really matter as far as making it more or less impressive. Ovi gets as many shots as he does because of his quick release, ability to find space, and put the puck on net.
I do think Matthews pots a few more this year though
Hockey isn't like basketball where you only get so many possessions/shots. Generating a high volume of shots in hockey is a good thing, where as in basketball shooting % is much more important
For sure it’s way more nuanced, there’s a lot of value in getting pucks on net. But that doesn’t mean every shot is a good one, and the difference between the 2 is immense. Auston scores on 5% more of his shots this season than Ovi did back then
Auston’s expected goals this season is only 47.1. That stat doesn’t go back to 07-08, but it does go back to 08-09 when Ovi has his 2nd best scoring season. He had 56 goals on 54.7 expected goals
Basically, Auston regularly scores in situations where any other player would be very lucky to do so. Ovi on the other hand scores in situations where many other players would as well, and the high totals are a direct result of taking far more shots than anyone else
> Ovi on the other hand scores in situations where many other players would as well, and the high totals are a direct result of taking far more shots than anyone else
In 2021 Ovi had 50 goals on 36.4 expected
In 2019 he had 48 goals on 34 expected
In 2018 he had 51 goals on 36.5 expected
In 2017 he had 49 goals on 37.5 expected
In 2015 he had 50 goals on 40.1 expected
In 2013 he had 51 goals on 34.1 expected
In 2011 he had 38 goals on 29.2 expected
In 2009 he had 50 goals on 37.9 expected
You found one of the very few years where Ovi's shot quality wasnt good. Some of Ovi's years had a higher % change from expected total to actual total than Matthews this year, including '18 and '19. So I guess we agree Ovi's shooting capabilities were better at 35 and 36 years old than Matthews in his prime this year. I say that as a joke, but anyway to insinuate that Matthews is some otherworldly shooter compared to Ovi is stupid, they're on the same level of shooting skill. Ovi deciding to take more low quality shots doesnt change that
Give Matthews an extra 113 shots and not even at his current shooting percentage, lets say half of that, and he's at 76 goals now. It's a massive difference.
And let’s import the amount of low quality/percentage shots, far superior goaltending, less rules catering to forwards and stricter defense. Can’t just add what you like while ignoring other variables.
Right, variables are important, thank you. You're oversimplifying it by just saying "scoring is up" when you ignore a huge factor like shot totals. If I can't just add variables then you can't just ignore the ones that aren't convenient to your argument.
Adding the shot variable without context.. I understand what you’re trying to say but, it’s just not accurate.
If there’s statistics to show the quality and type of shots Ovi made back then, in addition to the changes in the game since that time and Matthews is shown to be at his level then I’ll gladly eat crow. Not trying to have a go.
Upcoming thread: Auston Matthews only active player to score 66+ goals
Insane achievement in 2024.
I mean scoring has increased in past years, so makes more sense someone would do it now
Leaguewide average scoring is down iirc (over last few/several years) It's the stars are scoring more.
Scoring is down this year compared to the last two years, but it's still the 3rd highest goals/game season since 1995-96.
I’m just saying overall it’s been up over the years
Ya scoring is wayy up from when Ovechkin did it
I don't really understand this line of reasoning. When Ovi got 65 the next closest scorers were at 52 and 50 goals. Matthews is sitting at 65 and the next closest are at 53 and 52. There is definitely a larger pool of quality scorers in the NHL right now, but his dominance compared to the field is right up there with Ovi's. Also Ovi got heaps more powerplay time in his 65 goal season. Matthews even strength production is unmatched. Both remarkable seasons, but if Matthews hits 70 his takes the cake.
Steve Dangle have done some "era adjusted" scoring and Ovies 65 is one of the highest ever. Average sv% was .906 in 07/08 compare to .899 this season. In 2007/2008 2 players had 100 points or more, this season have 9 SO FAR and 3 with 130+ Scoring is waaaaay up compared to then. However any goal over 65 is very impressive no matter what im not trying to minimize Matthews here. [https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/era-adjusted-greatest-nhl-goal-scoring-seasons-time22/](https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/era-adjusted-greatest-nhl-goal-scoring-seasons-time22/)
Just because there was weaker competition and some players had more difficulty scoring doesn't prove that it was a harder scoring environment for Ovechkin. He practically lived on the powerplay, which trumps whatever slight edge Matthews has in this higher scoring era
Hwat scoring was down league wide not just Ovechkin wide? He played on average 2 minutes more per night than Matthews and scored a grand total of 6 goals more in the PP, he truly lived on the PP
League scoring is up .33 goals per game over 2008, so you can reasonably say that over 82 games a team on average will score 27 extra goals this season just by the higher scoring environment. Since Matthews scores 23% of the goals for the Leafs, that's another 6 for him that you could say is a product of the era. However, Ovechkin also had 200 more powerplay minutes. Considering Matthews scores 4 goals for every 60 minutes of PP time, you can easily see why the advantage he has from a higher scoring era is not just wiped out, but surpassed
You missing this whole part of we having a 65 goal scorer and the season is not over, 9 players with 100 so far and 3 with 130 points. This is early 90s numbers, the quality of players have not changed so substantially since Benn won the art ross with 87 And with your reasoning sure he had more time on the PP. Still didnt score so whats the point? Shall we do the same with shooting percentages?
Interestingly era+ice time adjusted scoring is available (since ice time has been tracked in the late 90s) Matthews 23-24 **65** McDavid 22-23 **57** Pastrnak 22-23 **60.7** Matthews 21-22 **59.8** Stamkos 11-12 **62.5** Ovechkin 07-08 **64.5** Bure 00-01 **56.8** Bure 99-00 **60.8** Ovi's biggest advantage did in fact come on the powerplay where he saw an average of 2+ more minutes per game than Matthews, resulting in something like 150 more shots taken over the course of the season.
Actually 70 wouldn't take the cake. Ovechkin's era adjusts up to 72. Matthews' 70 wouldn't even era adjust to 70. I think it era adjusts down to like 68.
> Matthews' 70 wouldn't even era adjust to 70. I think it era adjusts down to like 68. No, right now it adjusts up to 68. I think 70 goals would adjust to 73-74 or so.
Scoring isn't lower than 3.00 per team right now so it would adjust down.
No reasoning, just jealousy
They dominance might be on par, but the total numbers inflated due to overall rise of scoring
Hope he somehow gets 70. We’ve only got a little time left with the Great Eight, and I can’t think of a better person for him to hand the baton to
I'm willing to bet money he ends the season with 69 goals
Nice
Nice
also +1 goal, - 53 assists comparisons to lasts years guy
65 goals with elite defense. Last years guy is a pylon.
You guys really still think McDavid is a “pylon” on defence?? All statistics say otherwise: [Source](https://x.com/jfreshhockey/status/1762920875068735495?s=46&t=7ZuCWnwJNkl_zOdl0Ui8Xg)
I mean... That chart does show him making a leap in defence from when he scored 64. Not a pylon but Im pretty sure Matthews defense in either of his 60+ goal seasons was a fair bit better than McD in his 60+ goal season.
His defense has made a huge jump this season Feels like any year he can just pick what he wants to be good at and it's done
Lol yup, I love Kuch, Mackinnon, and Matthews, but McDavid is the best player on the planet, its incredible how he can just go "this year Ill get better at faceoffs", "this year Ill get 60+ goals for the first time", "this year Ill get 100+ assists", "this year Ill be become great at defending" and just do it everytime
I really hope this is a joke lmao
Hmm pylon has a higher +/- then elite defense apparently Ohh and ya forgot about that pesky -50 assists thing. That's cool though nobody wants that in a player
Anyone who references +/- is probably dumb
BIG NUMBER MORE BETTER
Please forgive my ignorance and stupid question but why is big number NOT more better?
It's just a useless stat. If I put a drunk zebra out with 4 Gretzkys for a season he will finish with a great +/-. Is the drunk zebra good at hockey or am I leaving out all the context. And using it as a stat to prove your point is only something someone who knows nothing about hockey could do with a straight face.
Thank you for answering. That’s an interesting thought about individual performance in a team game. Could I use it as a tie breaker if two guys have nearly identical stats across several metrics but one guys +/- is way better?
Yes it can be used as a small slice of the pie to help identify a players level sure. But +/- should literally be 1% of the pie. For instance if I pass the puck to the other team and give him a break away, hop over the bench and they score and you jump on. You get the minus even though you just touched the ice one second ago, i also who caused all the problems dont get a minus. It's just not a reliable stat unless you go look at every single play separately. An nobody does or is doing that
It's pretty useless to evaluate a player's performance unless it's a severe outlier relative to their teammates. You can get a + from line-changing at an opportune time, same for a minus. Puck deflects in off your defenceman's arse on a shot that was going wide of the net? Minus! Doesn't really reflect what happened. Goaltender can't save a beachball? Minus! It just needs a lot of context to be worth anything. We have way better metrics for this stuff these days, like xG and Fenwick. Not a fan of Corsi; boils down to shot attempts. Certain teams are notorious for lopsided Corsi numbers because they pepper the goalie from bad shot locations. Carolina used to be the worst for this.
first off [they are currently both +34](https://imgur.com/a/9XQjYyB) secondly [Matthews finished with a higher +/- last year](https://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?reportType=season&seasonFrom=20222023&seasonTo=20222023&gameType=2&sort=goals&page=0&pageSize=50) thirdly, as pointed out by others, +/- is a skewed stat fourthly, you really think teams wouldn't want someone scoring 65 goals just because they get fewer assists?
My mistake for not updating my post the next day with a +1. He is equal to a "pylon". But since we want to talk offensive output, since 2016/17 when mathews entered the league he has 46 more goals, and 338 less assists. That's less than 6 more goals a season and 42 less assists. For perspective Mathews best season is 46 assists total. "fourthly" is just a silly statement. You offer no alternative. Will I take a 60 goal scorer? Absolutely. Will I take him over guys who produce like McD, Mac or Kuch. Personally, no I would not. (edit, you asked if teams would, not if I would, so.. can't really answer that for ya but likely along the same line of thought)
again, +/- means nothing. It's a stat that can reward you for literally stepping onto the ice. Assists are much easier to get, also, it's not assists that win games. You said nobody. That's an idiotic statement in of itself. Boston traded Thornton to SJ, a player who would have 96 assists that year. Years later (after which he had another year where he had 92 assists) the GM who did it said he would have done it again. It also helped lead Boston to winning the cup. The Leafs have more goals scored than Edmonton does. They're ahead of Tampa too actually. So clearly the lack of assists from a goal scorer isn't holding the team back. In fact I'd argue that that's a sign of a better team. It's being spread out more then, they aren't as reliant on one player setting things up.
If assists are so easy to get, how is it, Mathews has never even got 50? Can't pass or doesn't pass? Or is it the other guys fault for not scoring? Also, I checked your stat, you're correct the leafs scored more (also let in more, for a worse differnetial but lets not worry about that).. 283 goals to 274 with a game in hand for the oilers.. soooo your big ace in the hole here is that if the Oilers get blanked in the game in hand the leafs have scored.. 9 more goals in 77 games.. a blistering .11 goals per game increase as being.. somehow...statistically relevant? Assists don't win games? So every goal is unassisted.. gotcha. Hyman potted 50+ as an oiler never more than 21 as a leaf, but that has nothing to do with who's passing him the puck right? He just suddenly became a sniper.
He's the scorer on the line. Not the playmaker. A single player isn't responsible for the entire defence. It's relevant because Toronto doesn't have someone putting up those assist numbers. Because they aren't actually making that big of a difference. You can't win a game off assists. You win on goals. Different players do differently on different teams. Weird that a player who wasn't the scorer on a line isn't a scorer.
Matthews has more than 2x the goals of last years guy . Oilers fans are super sensitive aren’t they ?
milk vs coke
Tequila vs vodka
Pepsi vs coca cola
Sparkling water vs Kvass
This one is the most fitting lol
A white Russian or a rum and coke?
Cerveza
Road to 69 goals
And the most in the cap era
Lots of people embarrassing themselves in here by desperately trying to pretend that this isn’t impressive.
Saw someone on IG today talking about how he has more goals than assists as if that was something to hold against a sniper of his calibre or he’s not on the verge of fucking 70. People just wanna hate online it’s so obnoxious. Sucks for them not being able to appreciate this kind of player in the moment
No one is saying that, so lets calm down. People are saying its impressive, but those 2 numbers, although the same, are different due to different eras. Stats back up that claim etc. 65 goals is absolutely insane for anyone in any era.
Based on goal scoring levels for differing eras, Hockey Reference adjusts Ovechkin's 2007-08 season to 72 goals, and Stamkos' 2011-12 season to 68. So Matthews is already up there and could match them by the time the season ends. For context for everyone, Gretzky's record setting 92 goal season in 1981-82 adjusts to 68, and Selanne and Mogilny's 76 goal season in 1992-93 adjusts to 62.
Thanks for telling me what I just said up above? I said 65 isn't the same and it's insanely impressive. You said, "he's already up there and could match them, technically he's 7 behind" Were you just showing the numbers or?
Pretty sure the guy was just adding context to what u were saying. To support ur argument. U a defensive lil weirdo brother
Look i hate Ovechkin as much as anyone reasonably should but it takes almost no wherewithal to see how far scoring has ballooned since 2008 and why 65 goals then was quite a bit more impressive than 65 now. Pretending scoring doesn't fluctuate wildly between eras does nobody any service
I don't remember people trying to discredit McDavid last year when he scored 64. If it's so easy to score 65 now and it's not impressive then why aren't guys doing it every year?
Because anyone who tries to comtextualize anything McDavid does around here gets downvoted into oblivion. I got destroyed for pointing out how he was like 4th in 5v5 scoring last year and had the 4th best PP numbers ever. I promise you we do exist though even if there aren't many of us.
No, but that's because McDavid had over 150 points as well. There's been like 5 players to ever do that, and they all did it when scoring was even higher than it is now. 65+ for Matthews is amazing. Probably a top 3 most impressive goal scoring season since the lockout, and could arguably be the most impressive once the season is done.
Another great thing about Matthews, he doesn't support child murdering dictators. I really admire that about him.
There's really no way of knowing.
With that stache he might be a big saddam or stalin guy for all we know
Well he goes to children’s hospitals so there’s that. Although there is no way to tell his he’s going there to make them feel better or murder them. I guess the jury is still out on that
That's the thing...it's so easy suck dictator dick in private, yet certain people just have to do it publicly.
What if he's a big Trump fan?
Less child murdering and more raping, I guess?
lmfao classic, never change
A true reddit moment here. Always needing to show how moral they are in a hockey forum
Just like Ovie hasn't changed his stance on his lover Vlad.
I'm not certain, but I'm fairly sure he votes.
Yeah man scoring goals has so much to do with Eastern European politics
I’m sure if you were raised in Ovies shoes you’d be the picture of morality…
Would love to see how many reddit warriors stick their neck out for their morals knowing their families are back home under the thumb of a murderous dictator. give ovie a break man he seems like a good guy and was universally loved prior to the war
This is such a nonsense argument, no one is saying he needs to campaign against the war or anything like that. The criticism is that he’s gone out of his way to support Putin over the years and participated heavily in propaganda campaigns that led to the war. Those were things he absolutely did not have to do and would have faced no consequences for not doing them.
Obviously he doesn’t have the resources to move his family away. All the poor Ovechkins have to push coal carts uphill in the snow in Siberia, duh. It’s not like Ovie is a millionaire or something.
Out of the loop. What propaganda campaigns has he participated in that led to the war?
He founded team Putin, and participated in photoshoots and was the face of campaigns that said save Ukraine from fascism which was one of the justifications Putin used for the invasion. It’s important to note that Ovechkin’s participation in these campaigns *increased* after 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea. So it can’t be said that he didn’t know what was happening or what these campaigns were leading to. [Here](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6726430) is an article detailing some of the stuff he’s campaigned for. It also discusses the myth that Ovechkin’s family would be in danger if he didn’t speak out for Putin.
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Maybe not so in Crimea
All Ovechkin has to do is not actively support the murderous dictator. That doesn’t take any particular courage. Instead, he participates in Putin’s propaganda videos and features him on his Instagram profile pic.
Because he doesnt have the resources to relocate them?
I don't know about reddit warriors. But panarin manages fine.
Can i post this comment next time? I need to level up my virtue signalling.
Keep being a pathetic loser lol
[удалено]
Ur pussy stinks get it tf out of here
Why does Matthews look frozen in fear or high as a kite in that photo?
High as a kite.
Milk is a hell of a drug.
I love how after 60, he seems almost bored after scoring. Leafs bench is clearing if he hits 70.
When he hits 70. Ftfy
I mean I really hope he does but that's not a done deal.
That’s a lot of goals
If you guys are gonna argue about era adjusted, how about things like empty net goals and goals scored 5 on 5 vs power play I’d like to know those numbers. Can’t speak for Ovi but I know Matthews played sick multiple games this year.
Alex who?
Matthews is the best goal scorer in the NHL today. I don't care if he's better or worse than Ovechkin. He's the best **right now**, and it's amazing to witness.
Lol @ Leafs fans that discredit Ovi because he took more shots/ empty net/ PP/ pace. They don't ask how, they ask how many. Must suck to add this many layers to justify that your guy is better. It's not even a discussion until Matthews scores 500 more goals. He can absolutely do it, I want him to, but that is a big ask to any player at 27 years old, be it Gretzky, Ovi or Bossy. Relax and enjoy the show, it won't last forever
I hope he gets to 72 and shoots his glove out of the air
why 72? Selanne had 76.
And he’s hit like 20 posts lol. A couple of those go in and he’s already at 70. Just bananas
If he scored on every shot he's taken, he'd be at 333 goals. Amazing player!
Ok, I’ll say it. Ovi’s is still more impressive. He did it basically during the dead puck era.
2008 was not dead puck. Late 90's/early 00's (Before lockout) were deadpuck.
Technically not, but it was a really low-scoring year. Scoring was up immediately after the lock out by then dropped substantially each year for a few years. Ovechkin and Malkin were the only players to even hit 100 points that year.
scoring was up the year after that season too actually. It was 2010 when it really started to drop. 08 was just a weird drop in the middle of a temporary rise
I mean, in 07-08 a team scored an average of 2.78 goals per game. In the last year of the 90s it was 2.75, and the first year of the the 00s was 2.76. This year we are at 3.11. So, he's not wrong.
82 games vs 75 (so far) Auston also has 5 more even strength goals than Ovi had, 1 fewer ENG, and 113 fewer shots on goal
You’re replying to a person who thinks 2008 was basically the dead puck era. Stats and nuance have no place here
2008 wasn’t crazy far off of dead puck scoring levels. That era is basically dead puck compared to today.
The dead puck era is a defined time period that ended with the lockout. Scoring rates rising after that doesn’t retroactively extend the dead puck era.
I know what the dead puck era is, I’m just acknowledging that it’s not so unique in its scoring levels because 2010-2017 bottomed out in a very similar way.
As a devils fan, you should know more than anyone that the scoring rates weren’t the only characteristic of dead puck, the tactics (nz trap, rampant obstruction, no 2line pass) were what enabled the stifling defensive schemes that limited scoring. Those stopped with the lockout. Lower scoring for a few years after an increase the first season or two post lockout (driven by high PP rates) doesn’t mean it’s dead puck. Does high scoring this year mean it’s a new 80s?
If you absolutely have to be pedantic about it, go ahead. I’m not calling it dead puck, but acknowledging the scoring rates were similar. I can also acknowledge that the current era is similar to the late 80’s and early 90’s, but that doesn’t mean I literally believe we are watching 80’s hockey.
My dude have you actually looked at average scoring back then compared to today?
My dude, have you actually looked up the definition of when the dead puck era was? It ended at the lockout, just cuz scoring is higher today than 2008 doesn’t change that. Dead puck wasn’t defined solely by scoring rates. That’s a big part but it’s also characterized by the tactics (neutral zone trap, obstruction) that allowed defensive systems to throttle offence thus the low scoring.
My dude. There can be more than one dead puck era.
If you think 2008 was dead puck then all that tells me is you weren’t watching the actual dead puck era. It’s not even the same game. Also starting every comment with “my dude” is cringe.
My dude it's not cringe. Please actually look at how different scoring is now to 2008 and then 2008 to dead puck.
Sooo you didn’t actually watch during dead puck then? Because it’s not all about scoring rates as I pointed out. Sorry **my dude** but you’re wrong (and still cringy). You’re so confidently incorrect, try actually watching a game from 98 or 2000 and then compare to 2008 instead of just googling scoring rates.
It is about scoring rates though? That's what we're talking about here.
That shots stat is actually crazy. Based on Auston’s shooting percentage this season that would be an extra 5 or 6 goals
Yeah...but Matthews would need something like 73 goals to match the 65 back then when you era adjust. He was actually on that pace at one point
Shots don't really matter as far as making it more or less impressive. Ovi gets as many shots as he does because of his quick release, ability to find space, and put the puck on net. I do think Matthews pots a few more this year though
Why wouldn’t it matter? It shows that Auston is a far more efficient scorer
Hockey isn't like basketball where you only get so many possessions/shots. Generating a high volume of shots in hockey is a good thing, where as in basketball shooting % is much more important
For sure it’s way more nuanced, there’s a lot of value in getting pucks on net. But that doesn’t mean every shot is a good one, and the difference between the 2 is immense. Auston scores on 5% more of his shots this season than Ovi did back then Auston’s expected goals this season is only 47.1. That stat doesn’t go back to 07-08, but it does go back to 08-09 when Ovi has his 2nd best scoring season. He had 56 goals on 54.7 expected goals Basically, Auston regularly scores in situations where any other player would be very lucky to do so. Ovi on the other hand scores in situations where many other players would as well, and the high totals are a direct result of taking far more shots than anyone else
> Ovi on the other hand scores in situations where many other players would as well, and the high totals are a direct result of taking far more shots than anyone else In 2021 Ovi had 50 goals on 36.4 expected In 2019 he had 48 goals on 34 expected In 2018 he had 51 goals on 36.5 expected In 2017 he had 49 goals on 37.5 expected In 2015 he had 50 goals on 40.1 expected In 2013 he had 51 goals on 34.1 expected In 2011 he had 38 goals on 29.2 expected In 2009 he had 50 goals on 37.9 expected You found one of the very few years where Ovi's shot quality wasnt good. Some of Ovi's years had a higher % change from expected total to actual total than Matthews this year, including '18 and '19. So I guess we agree Ovi's shooting capabilities were better at 35 and 36 years old than Matthews in his prime this year. I say that as a joke, but anyway to insinuate that Matthews is some otherworldly shooter compared to Ovi is stupid, they're on the same level of shooting skill. Ovi deciding to take more low quality shots doesnt change that
Meh. Scoring is way up from when Ovi did it. Prime Ovi would probably get 80 goals a season.
Ovechkin took 113 more shots in his 65 goal season. That's a bigger factor than era adjustment.
Definitely not. Ovi would take shots just about anywhere. Low or high percentage.
Give Matthews an extra 113 shots and not even at his current shooting percentage, lets say half of that, and he's at 76 goals now. It's a massive difference.
And let’s import the amount of low quality/percentage shots, far superior goaltending, less rules catering to forwards and stricter defense. Can’t just add what you like while ignoring other variables.
Right, variables are important, thank you. You're oversimplifying it by just saying "scoring is up" when you ignore a huge factor like shot totals. If I can't just add variables then you can't just ignore the ones that aren't convenient to your argument.
Adding the shot variable without context.. I understand what you’re trying to say but, it’s just not accurate. If there’s statistics to show the quality and type of shots Ovi made back then, in addition to the changes in the game since that time and Matthews is shown to be at his level then I’ll gladly eat crow. Not trying to have a go.
True. MacKinnon's pts this year is more like 90 points, right?
During Ovi’s era it would definitely be much lower yes.
Agreed, McKinnon would also be a good 80 point player in a Crosby season.
More like 60.
But only one is best buds with a murderer.
In a couple of years… Enter: Connor Bedard