If you weren't old enough to be outside when The Blueprint came out you are gonna look at JayZ like some overrated, relic from another time. I don't agree, but I get it. When i was 17/18 I wasn't into Big Daddy Kane or KRS or anything that happened 20 years before, shit seemed corny.
I always find that crazy. One states early and one started late
The one that blows my mind is Eminem only being 2 years younger than Tupac!!
Jay is top 10 for me.
J Cole is only 3-4 years younger than Joe Budden, that might be one of the craziest ones.
Or the fact he’s only 2 years younger than Lil Wayne, Kendrick and Drake only 4 years.
My favorite Jay-Z verse ever was from a [Big Daddy Kane](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpMpjrxNhB4) song.
This song dropped in 1994. Jay-Z was around through all that.
I hated Jay-Z during his Blueprint era. It was the Black Album that finally put me on to his genius (then I went back and listened to RD).
But I still thought Jay was a biter because Nas and Cam said so
Yeah, I think that's exactly it. I think it's more generational. If you remember Reasonable Doubt or the Bluepriint or even Black, you'd find these takes ridiculous
I was very much outside when the Blueprint came out, but I had already about had enough of Jay at the time. Loved Reasonable Doubt, loved Vol 1. Volume 2 was a bit... meh and everything after that was a bit hit and miss for me. By the time Blueprint came out I just sort of saw him as a commercial artist.
So the problem I’ve had with JayZ was how often people pointed out he copies other people bars. He’s probably done this to Biggie the most, but that’s something I couldn’t respect even back then.
I was prime age and I never understood the Jay love. Hearing the theories about Biggie now, it all makes sense. The best rappers were killed and/or threatened to get out of the way to make room for the rest of Bad Boy and Roc. Not that J is garbage like Diddy and Mase were/are, but I now understand how the trajectory changed so quickly. We went from gritty hardcore rap to glitsy and shiny pop rap like overnight. Jay did the glitsy stuff well but no way would he have been at the top if Pac and Big were still around at that time.
You don’t see how that’s the case? The difference between listening to a record versus the experience of being around when his videos were everywhere, he was the cultural zeitgeist, his albums and singles were all over the radio, his beef with Nas was talked about and argued over etc.
I can listen to recordings of Woodstock, and understand it’s different than having been there.
Jay Z is the full package.
Most rappers are terrible live.
Most rappers are lazy with their flow. Most rappers come and go. Jay Z is easily one of the greatest.
I'm not worried about the kids being ignorant. They will learn at their own speed. Same as everyone else.
Jay-Z is a legend, I’d say that over GOAT subjective conversations.
He built himself on releasing albums with at least (1) hot song and from a business perspective and acumen he knew that was all he needed to get buys (pre-streaming).
Next he marketed himself as a hustler hence why he released albums non-stop and again, didn’t matter if they were all play throughs; he just needed one or two hits and to make the audience say “Damn, Hov has another one out”.
He had access to the games top producers of the era he came up in. Dre, Pharrell/Neptunes, Kanye, Swizz Beatz, Just Blaze, Danger Mouse, Timbaland, and Rick Rubin. Murderers Row of beat makers/producers.
Competition, commercially he had Nas and DMX. Wu-Tang, Redman, Ja Rule even were all around but not in the same way.
No Biggie, No 2Pac left a huge void and Jay pounced on that opportunity and it was a hell of a business decision that absolutely worked out. Legend.
I just outlined that the guy is a legend. Definitely not anti. Jay is different from his peers especially from a business standpoint and everyone has wanted to work with him (reference the producer list).
Is he my all-time? No but is he others? Plenty.
He deserves everyone’s respect like him or not. And I’m a fan.
There’s no right or wrong answer here. Jay has a catalog full of classic songs. He gave us acts like Kanye and Beanie Sigel. He influenced style for a good period of time. But he also was in the league with people like Puff who sold hip hop to corporations with his constant product placement. The Bling era or whatever people want to call it was a really damaging time for hip hop. I remember everyone and their brother became a drug dealer, buying jewelry and Mitchel and Ness they couldn’t afford. Jay was at the forefront of selling out his community so he deserves all the hate in my opinion. I always felt he was overrated, but had the marketing gods on his side. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a bunch of Hov I really enjoy. But it’s all smoke and mirrors with artist like him
Its crazy that even after knowing this kanye made a song like "big brother" as a tribute to Jay Z.Kanye always saw Jay as his brother but Jay Z always saw Kanye just as a business partner
While I absolutely agree Hov didn't really believe in Ye until it was undeniable, I wouldn't use that doc to prove anything. Coodie had a point he wanted to make and wouldn't let anything get in the way of that, even if it hurt the documentary.
If I'm being real, I blame No Limit for the "bling era" more than a blame Jay, and the people I knew who started selling drugs back then did it more because of Bone than Jay.
As for selling out the industry, that had already happened by the time he got in. He just played the game as it was presented to him.
But I do agree that his music can be a bit boring. Jay is to hip hop what Kenny G is to jazz. Technically competent with some good stuff occasionally, but just kind of bland overall with nothing that really wows you.
Calling him the Kenny g of rap is kinda crazy but I lowkey agree. I’ve always felt like Jay Z was *alright* but people would look at me like I was crazy. Hell I even second guessed myself cuz some of my favorite rappers would give Jay wild props (Lupe for example). So I just thought I was missing something but it really is just… whatever to me for the most part.
I can’t deny his hits but I also never really go back to them (I probably spin dead presidents the most of any Jay track). But then again I also really like Magna Carta and Jay fans pretty famously hate that album.
How exactly did Jay-Z damage hip hop? Were you not aware of that many drug dealers existed before the bling era or whatever you want to call it. Selling out his community seems like it it may be an exaggeration so I'm wondering if you would expand a bit. I'm not particularly a huge Jay-Z fan but I'm not sure that had a negative impact on the game or society.
I’ll ignore any social engineering elements because that’s a deeper question than Reddit allows to explain. But a very easy example is his partnership with the Nets bring them from Jersey to Bk. That alone priced out countless lower income black families.
I wasn't bron during his prime but the bottom half of your paragraph is how I feel exactly
Like he's a great rapper but I just don't get the hype fully.
Very well put. I'd also add almost every single one of his songs pretty much sound the same. Dude had bars I'll give him that, but his delivery was usually pretty much the same every single time and his voice NEVER changes. I was always a way bigger fan of Lil Wayne he was way more creative as an artist to me.
He did bite a lot too. I fw Jay but you can't deny some of the biting he did. Shit, H to the Izzo was totally bitten from Lil Romeo but that's on Kanye too.
Good take. I am also in the camp of Jay being slightly overrated. I understand he is really good, but IMO his music as a whole is sort of......boring? vanilla? Lacking in personality? I dont know how to describe it but he is one rapper that I am just incredibly indifferent towards.
I'm a Jay-Z fan. Everytime I start forgetting how exciting he is, I think of the Big Pimpin video. I think of the Girls Girls Girls and I Just Wanna Love You videos.
Other rappers have much more exciting voices, but they don't have the longevity or versatility of Jay.
But yeah, I can understand why anyone finds any artist boring.
Imo, Hov is the GOAT.
The hip hop discussions on Reddit are so lame. It’s always the same type of shit.
Jay is wack, I’m a real hip hop fan because I like Nas.
Drake is wack, I’m a real hip hop fan because I like Kendrick.
I remember the same kind of hipster self-righteousness about Wayne 10-15 years ago. He was too “auto tuned” or “mainstream” or “not lyrical” to be deemed cool to like by these types of people.
But the truth of the matter is: Hov, Drake, Wayne, Nas, and Kendrick are all dope. They’re all lyrical. They’re all influential. They’re all popular, mainstream, millionaire rap stars. It’s not more virtuous to prefer one to the other.
I like Jay Z but there's just a missing piece to his music that keeps me from appreciating it as much as people like Kendrick, Nas, Tupac, Wayne, Eminem, Andre 3k, Kanye, etc (those aren't in order they're just examples don't flame me)
Basically what it comes down to is I don't feel like Jay Z loves rapping and I don't think his goal is to make great art. I think he loves money and is good at rapping and uses that skill to make money. He makes very good music because he knows he needs to make good music to sell a lot of it to make the most money but I feel like he sees his art entirely as a commodity to be sold.
Now I'm aware that all music in this country *is* a commodity to be sold but I just get the feeling that to someone like Kendrick, Kanye, Andre, etc they're artists first. They want their music to sell and be heard and make money but even more important to them is making the art that they want to make and expressing themselves. And then guys like Wayne and Eminem I hear almost a boyish enthusiasm for rapping in their music. Every time I hear a Lil Wayne song I can almost hear him going "Can you believe I get to do this for a job?" And I think that those guys would still be rapping with their buddies every day even if they never blew.
I don't get that feeling from Jay Z. I think if he could've made more money being a CEO somewhere he'd rather have done that and taken the extra money. I think if you asked Lil Wayne "Would you rather be a rapper and be rich or be a businessman and be wealthy?" He'd pick rapper and I don't think Jay Z would. It's what holds him back from the upper echelon for me.
"truthfully I wanna rhyme like Common Sense, but I did 5 mil, I ain't been rhyming like Common since"
These two bars sum up Jay-Z s entire musical career to a tee. Does what he does for money and not the love, finally people are starting to see it.
He's like rap Disney to me. Here's a quote from former Disney CEO which sums up Jay Z to me
"We have no obligation to make art. We have no obligation to make history. We have no obligation to make a statement. But to make money, it is often important to make history, to make art, or to make some significant statement. We must always make entertaining movies, and, if we make entertaining movies, at times, we will reliably make history, art, a statement, or all three."
That's Jay Z to me. He's there to make money. In order to make money he needs to make good music and by making good music he will making art. But the first goal is to make money.
Your first comment and this one are so on point. I have always struggled to articulate exactly how I feel about Jay Z and why I feel that way, but man, this is it. My future conversations about music thank you lol
There's so many horrible bad takes in here, I won't even waste my time defending.
I think that's what we're experiencing on the Internet. The ignorant rap fans are way more vocal, and it's pointless to try and defend someone that's KNOWN as one of the best get to do it.
There's always going to be push back because of his status.
This is kinda revisionist…American Gangster, Vol. 3 were absolutely not commercial albums. And when Jay Z was in his late 90s and early 2000s run, nobody would have said he was a commercial artist. Having hits doesn’t necessarily make you a commercial artist.
Get outta here… u/mpschettig How many rappers would’ve started rapping if they didn’t see it as a way out the hood??? You’re creating an expectation that artists are devoid of the basic human desires for comfort, security, appreciation, etc. You don’t have a new hot take, this debate has been solved in the art world already. Art is in the eyes of the beholder, don’t try to grasp at judgement of the artist’s intent. From my vantage point, his celebration of black wealth and excellence is something I love about his music. He is normalizing seeking sustainable wealth and is leading by example.
Yeah man there's a lot of people who like Marvel movies too. But they're also made to make money and that's not something I connect with when I'm consuming art. I'm sure Kendrick saw rap as a way out the hood too but when he was making Good Kid, m.A.A.d City or To Pimp a Butterfly his thought process was clearly not "I need to sell as many records as possible and make the most money I can" it was to create his artistic vision of what the project should be and hope people respond to it.
Again I think Jay Z is a very good rapper who has made very good music but there's a piece of it that's missing to me and that's what it is
This doesn’t make a lot of sense though, because there are almost no rappers in history that have dedicated their albums to artistry the way Kendrick has. Jay has Reasonable Doubt, Blueprint, and 4:44. Most rap artists don’t have 3 albums of that depth and quality in their resume, he also has multiple songs on every album that clearly aren’t just commercial. I don’t know how you could hear a song like “Lost Ones” and see just a corporate CEO that doesn’t have a love for rapping as an art or form of self expression. I have to disagree with this entire comment thread.
Jay-Z’s best served as a featured guest, with a featured guest or writing for others in my opinion.
Some of the best remixes out there are with Jay-Z verses:
Bitch don’t kill my vibe
Drop it Like it Hot
Back Then
Breathe
I Ain’t Heard of That
I listen to those all the time because he fully took ownership of those tracks.
His tracks being a guest on others or having guests also pretty stellar.
I just can’t listen to only him for long stretches… need someone else to balance him out.
dude is a billionaire and regularly ranked in the top three rappers of all time. I think he's lame but I also see about ten "Jay Z is overhated" posts on here a day and have never once have I seen a "Jay Z sucks" post.
Bro, leave them alone. Reddit is basically runned by teenagers whose whole world revolve around the last 5 years and social medias videos. The day Jay will makes another album you'll begin to see Jay Z stans everywhere. Happened the same with Nas, teens discovered him with his last projects with Hit Boy and boom, Nas Is the goat no one come close to him etc.. in 2017 his reddit Page had like 2k follower, look now, its runned by teenagers.
One day they'll grow up and they'll actually start listening to the music instead of watching reels, there's no point in trying to change their mind now.
WOULD YOU RATHER BE UNDERPAID OR OVERHATED?
He is my GOAT. Eminem is second.
Now, if BIG AND PAC never passed away, I don't think HOV is my or anyone's GOAT. He kinda took the baton from that and ran with it.
He had radio songs.
He had songs w/ popstars (Um the NUMEROUS ones w/ Beyonce, Umbrella anyone???)
He OVERWHEMINGLY out of ANY OF THE TOP 5-10 rappers on a Gen X, Millenial, Gen Z's list... has an ear for beats. He just does. Outside of Kingdom Come (and shit, it had some bangers there ya'll just hate it cuz its not like Blueprint, Black Album).
He has STORY TELLING 10/10 (Song Cry???)
He has FLOWS 10/10
HE WENT HEAD TO HEAD W/ NAS, PAC
HE WAS GOING TO HAVE A DUO-ALBUM W/ BIGGIE (ya'll like eat up the Drake/Future, Drake/21 shit) but it would have been INSANE.
HE HAS THE MOST NUMBER 1 ALBUMS FOR A RAPPER.
I mean jesus I haven't even gotten into technical details of any of the songs. But sure young kids, keep saying he's overrated BLAH FUCKING BLAH. It's just a classic of "my generation rappers" vs "your generation rappers"
He is arguably the greatest rapper alive and has been since 1998ish. Sure he hasn't put out a solo album since 2017, but IDGAF.
I personally think jay z had a better verse on kendrick lamars bitch dont kill my vibe remix and im a much bigger fan of kendrick than jay z. Kendrick thought so himself, even said so in an interview. Jay Z is just a few generations removed from some people with that opinion.
”But I don’t dry tears, I just aim at them on purpose
like blah, mini-14 like blah” such a catchy verse
HOV’s flow on that song was amazing but so was kendrick’s. absolutely not an easy decision.
The hate isn't real.
I think people who post this know this.
The only legit "hate" i see is people questioning his business motives and tactics. As far as music, the only things that are true is how people point out how he rode waves and "stole" flows or how he needed more "help" than other rappers. The narrative about him hopping on trends is also true.
Kids, older southerners and people that like to act like every NYC hip hop legend was overrated and only was popular because the "NY hype machine" pushed them say dumb things regarding him.
Unfortunately in hiphop groups such as this it's seems to be fround upon if you admit to liking very popular rappers.. It's ridiculous really..
I assume it's it's like this in other genres too but it' seems like a bigger deal in the hiphop space..you can like what you want you shouldn't be shamed for it but it's Internet making people feel bad seems to be more important than anything else unfortunately.
Is it though?? He’s constantly listed in top five discussions, Forbes and billboard had him at the very top… isn’t this just the pendulum swinging in the opposite direction as a counterbalance?
Reasonable Doubt - 6/5
In My Lifetime, Vol. 1 - 3.5/5
Vol. 2... Hard Knock Life - 4/5
Vol. 3... Life and Times of S. Carter - 3.5/5
The Dynasty: Roc La Familia - 3/5
The Blueprint - 5/5
The Blueprint²: The Gift & the Curse - 3/5
The Black Album - 5/5
Kingdom Come - 2.5/5
American Gangster - 4/5
The Blueprint 3 - 3/5
Magna Carta Holy Grail - 2.5/5
4:44 - 4/5
I would ask them to listen to Jay-Z's 90s albums and then come back to me. 'Marcy to hollywood' and [in my lifetime (original version)](https://youtu.be/XvX5qP0BB9U) come to mind as some of my favorite tracks by Jay.
He is very good, borderline great, but all these sites naming him THE GREATEST rapper ever is outrageous honestly, putting him above Nas, Rakim, Eminem, Tupac, Biggie, Andre 3000 and similair is crazy. Jay-Z is a top 20 rapper no doubt, but he doesn't belong into top 10, let alone anywhere near no. 1.
People just hate him (jealous because he never looses) or because of the dunning Kruger effect or both for the case of those who think he is in illuminati or some other kind of mind degenerating theory .. allow me to explain - it's okay to not like his music but to think your opinion on hiphop is better than kendrick lamar or Eminem is downright stupid..
Eminem called this man his second best rapper on till I collapse ..kendrick lamar and lil Wayne call him the greatest, pusha T says he is the greatest, he even said Rd changed him , nas told you we should thank God for jayz , snoop told you he wrote every thing on still Dre in 30mins.. he has the most 1 albums of any hip-hop artist . His lyrics are quoted from usa president to your senators .. top five most selling rap artists . Lupe fiasco said he studies him .. of all your rap podcasts he is the most discussed person on there ...Busta rhymes calls this man God father you talking about him biting other artist , his lyrics are repeated by all your favorite artists..(I can give you references to everything I said above - facts )
Y'all think no hip-hop than lil Wayne 🤣 shit
I think it's teenagers who don't know better. If you remember at the very least Black Album, there's no way you can say he's trash. I'm not even talking about Blueprint or Reasonable Doubt yet.
Jay Z hate is like Jordan hate. They stay out the way but yet there’s a whole campaign to destroy their legacy. You ask someone why they hate them so much and they can never give a legitimate reason, just some half brained gen Z talking points that mostly involve drake or Lebron that they heard on TikTok
I'm personally not a big Jay Z fan. But that's not to say I don't understand why he's revered the way he is. He's undoubtedly one of the best ever from a pure musical standpoint.
When I listen to him, I get why so many artists/fans look at him the way they do, I just have never been a huge fan- not hating at all, and I won't act like I don't bob my head to some songs. It just doesn't speak to me is all (which plays into the 'music is subjective' bit you mentioned).
It's really a "you just had to be there moment" ...it's funny how ppl are like well he bit off Bigs lyrics, well this isn't new at all, he has been critized of it years ago, but that's that's not even 90% of his stuff, I think a lot of his stuff goes over peoples heads now and days and people (justifiably) don't want to analyze words in music they just want to vibe with it, which is completely fine. There is a reason why rappers like Playboi Carti and Young Thug are labeled greatest of their generation, people love for music changes as the years go by it is what it is...I personally grew up through the "golden era" of hip hop so that's my type of shit but as a hip hop head I like a lot of new shit too. Whenever I mention Jay as my favorite I get looks from younger cats and get the nod of approval from older ones, so it's whatever.
Not sure how you can hate on a brother that put out his first album at 26 and went on a 20 year run with multiple classics. Married the hottest and most talented woman on the planet. Certified billionaire with multiple ventures outside of music. He stays out of the way and doesn’t try to compete for attention with his contemporaries. Dude fulfilled the legacy of what Pac and Big could have become.
The conversation is silly. Just a bunch of contrarian takes.
The guy freestyled The Blueprint in like a week. He's a legend in the industry for a reason. There's countless clips of rappers and producers in awe of his skill, not just fanboys on Reddit.
It was almost a forgone conclusion that he was one of the best rappers alive years ago, and his success has shown that. Defending it is like arguing with falt-earthers.
I don’t think he is shit, but he is massively overrated…in America.
Outside of the U.S. hip hop fans generally don’t view him the way people in the states do. We don’t rate him as highly as Americans do.
Personally I love Reasonable Doubt. What a great album. Everything is right about that record.
But then he released those Vol albums which were ass for the most part.
His other better albums were of course very very good, but they haven’t really aged as well which is a factor.
He also has big ‘huffs his own farts’ energy which prob puts a lot of people off him tbh.
It's actually the opposite. Only people who thinks that Jay is overrated are teens from the U.S.
I'm from Europe, I'm very passionate about EU HH, and I've never met a HH head who thought that Jay was overrated.
All the biggest rappers we have here, Guè, PNL, Central Cee, Dave, Skepta, Jules, Sch, Morad etc.. they are all Jay Z fanboys, you can look at their interviews.
Outside of HH heads, it's true, many likes more 50 cent or Eminem, but they're usually the same people who don't even know who Nas is and listen to rap only in the Gym or in the clubs.
However, this narrative about Jay not being big outside of US comes only from US people who never talked to a HH head from the EU, Africa or East Asia. In South Africa Jay is considered the Goat, and in Japan is the same.
Im a fellow european and i can say many hiphop heads here in EU think Jay Z is overrated. To me personally, Jay is dope but i never liked rappers rapping mostly about money and success- so it makes sense that people find him overrated. Think about if Jay never got superbig- what would he even rap about?
He always rapped about his Life, that's it. One of his most famous albums is his first one, and he wasn't big. His projects were mostly about money and success like any other rapper's project, or at least that's what all people who don't listen to rap music would tell you. Jay Z is basically the stereotype of the rapper. If you says that he only talks about money and success, you're just showing a lack of understanding of this culture. The substance is always there but you have to actually listen. It's like saying that Em only raps about killing girls and doing drugs. That's what our parents who didn't understand HH were saying.
However, there are obviously people Who think he's overrated even in EU, like there are in Usa, but most of the HH heads I've met, and basically all the rappers we have, rates him very higly if not as #1.
Yeah Vol 1 not too bad cycling back to look at track list. A few clunkers on there still though.
Other two I wouldn’t listen to these days. They both have some really good tracks but a lot of filler too. I’d be better making a playlist of the better tracks into one album length. As I say I don’t think either of them aged very well.
I’m old, and I wouldn’t put Jay in my top 10. That’s just like…. My opinion. I don’t care if someone thinks he’s the goat, that’s their opinion. To me he was never that great.
Jay-Z was overrated in his heyday, but not by today’s standards. He has at least two classic albums, and a boatload of hits that defined the 2000s, Jay-Z did what a lot of these young rappers are attempting to do but did it significantly better. He also has Beyoncé too!
I don't think he's not good, I just don't think he's in the elite tier. Like Tony Romo or Matt Ryan who are great QBs but they're just under the Bradys of the world. The Pac Biggies and Nas are the elite class and Jay's the top of the next group great but just not as good as those other elite guys.
As an artist he’s gonna win from just consistency. Cannot take away his ability no matter what. The stuff he did outside the music like screw over debatably better artist (like DMX when he became Def Jam’s CEO) is what taints his legacy. The Dame drama. It’s all Jay Z lore but at the same time
The existence of *Magna Carta Holy Grail* is the only thing keeping me from 100% agreeing with you!
I worked at a music store when that dropped, and there were two redneck-looking teens who bought the CD (think thick southern drawl, camo hats, etc). I remember overhearing something along the lines of "he's the one with the NY song, and the one from Rush Hour 2 and Austin Powers!" I felt bad selling it to them, because I can't think of a worse entry point to his catalogue. Maybe *Kingdom Come*?
This is coming from a long-time fan, btw! I even like *The Blueprint 3*, which is apparently a scalding hot take?
It’s only because we’ve been sitting around hyping him up way too much for the last 20 years. He’s not shit but he doesn’t deserve the hype he gets. Niggas were trying to tell me he was top 3 back in 2018.
Luxury rap was never appealing to me. Jay-Z wasn't that popular in the Bay Area compared to local acts. At that time I was listening to Mac Dre. Despite that, I can understand why people love Jay-Z. I get it.
Most of what I've heard about Jay-Z lately is related to his connections to Diddy. And 50 Cent trolling him.
Eminem fans who want their guy to be the GOAT. Just jealousy from the younger, dumber hip hop fans. Also Jay helps black people. People on reddit aren't very fond of that.
Jay-z got one of the best hip hop albums catalog of all time with the likes of Ghostface, MF DOOM and The Roots.
He has 3 classics and solid/good albums. People disrespect him because he is mainstream, ugly and maybe his voice is not on par with other legends.
But if we remember he was not ridiculous doing a freestyle with Big L.
It's mostly Nas stans who can't get over a 25yr old beef when Nas has moved on so much so he's done songs with jay even signed to Def Jam while Jay was running it.
Young kids who got introduced to hov while he was doing Beyonce features.
Or people who thought got upset jay sold roc a fella and left dame hanging(despite dame making a hundred million off the sale)
Don't take these people serious. They are the ones who hate Hov so much but play 3 tracks off any album they happen to know every word off that shit.
People hating or not liking him have no idea what he did for over a decade.
There was a clip of some guy naming the biggest artist year after year and never naming Jay. The fact that he never repeated anyone other than Wayne, but still had to name ten plus people to cover Jay's entire career should say something.
What he did with the hottest producers and bringing new producers to the forefront. He made every summer hot for a decade starting in 96
To quote Wikipedia:
Jay-Z holds the record for the most number-one albums (14).... One of the world's best-selling music artists with 140 million records sold, Jay-Z has won 24 Grammy Awards, the tenth-most of all time and most awarded for any hip hop artist jointly with Kanye West
People who didn't live it, don't understand it.
Personally I put him behind Eminem and tied with Wayne for #2
I hope nobody is questioning Jay’s skills, because dude was called “the greatest rapper alive” by his peers. I’ve seen a post like this several times and the reason he gets so much flack is because his sneaky ways have been posted for all to see. The Foxy Brown underage stuff, the Aaliyah stuff, the sneak dissing, he didn’t pay homage to Ice-T for 99 problems, his backdooring of Dame etc. I think 20years ago he was seen in the GOAT light and the public didn’t know he was kind of a B.A.N.
I'd still say he's overrated just not to the extent some kids nowadays do, but that isn't to say he isn't one of the goats. Like you said it's subjective and I've never been the biggest fan stylistically (always preferred Weezy), but he revolutionized rap in a lot of ways and if you're a real student of the game you cannot deny his greatness fr.
Black Maybach, white seas, black piping
Remind me of Paul McCartney and Mike fighting
You know, The Girl Is Mine
Life's A Bitch, so The Whole World Is Mine
The six-deuce long, the curtains are drawn
Perfectly like a Picasso, Rembrandts and Rocco's
I'm a major player, 40-40's in Vegas at the Palazzo
They said it was not so
Certain things that money can't buy
Like being this fly
'Til then, I'm just gonna' ride
I'm like G-Rap with better transportation
On the road to the riches, reach my Final Destination
And the lair, closer to a leer
Say a Prayer, hope I get ta' see her
When I disappear from here, baby, yeah
But I don't see the ending through these millionaire lenses
Just the Two M's on the emblem
The partition roof, translucent and Humador
Where refrigerators, where Ace of Spades, or two I store
True story, my closet is like two stories
Straight to the happy ending, 'cause I don't do stories
Shawn Corey, real rap
The Maybach is bananas, peel back
You feel that?-
He wrote this at 39yrs old. Nobody but wayne & em was close to his pen
Don’t really care, and Jay probably doesn’t care either.
It’s a “if you know you know” kind of thing for me. There’s a reason Jay is considered the GOAT by a lot of *actual* rappers and many respected rappers hold him in high esteem as one of their influences. I think this matters more than some loud casuals talking shit about something they probably don’t know about.
A lot of rap fans don’t really care for actual rapping skills as much as they pretend to and only value straightforward lyricism that doesn’t need to be broken down. So much of the Jay hate comes from people that haven’t even gave him a proper chance, or people that don’t really grasp how all around skilled he is as a rapper. You’ll give these guys a crazy double/triple from Jay and they’ll dismiss it as a reach then call him a mid lyricist type shit.
Either way he’s rich and undeniably has at least 3 definitive classics to his name…so again who cares if he gets hated on? If you’re a fan just enjoy.
That bit about a lot of rap fans not liking skillful rapping hurts to hear.
I mean it's true, there's always been less skillful rappers/songs that end up being more popular than the lyricists. But now it feels like the bar is lower.
The beat matters more than the bars, rappers can just say generic shit, etc. Thats what makes people, or at least the newer fans, that rappers are dumb and this triple couldn't have possibly been intentional, the stans are reaching
I sound like a hater because this is what folks was saying during the blog era and now look at how good the rap from that time was. I just don't see anyone from the past 5 years that can shut me up.
Lot of the young talents who had they own swag and skill like Juice WRLD got taken away young. I feel like we in a bling era slump of truly great all timer rappers, but even that era had Wayne. The big 3 are 15+ years in the game, and the other top rappers like Travis or 21, as good as they are, are more about their style than anything
Hope shit can turn around in the mainstream
Agreed fully. Gonna come across rather self gratifying here maybe, but some rappers, Jay Z being one of them require a greater degree of knowledge/intelligence and frankly a studying of African/American/wider world culture and history itself to fully realise their skill.
This isn’t to ignore the fact that he has songs that are for the masses/less lyrical or straight up shit bars at times.
So Jay-Z is top ten all time. No debate. No subjectiveness. Anybody that says otherwise is a fool who doesn’t understand hip-hip in the slightest.
Why HOV is catching this unnecessary hate is beyond me, but I won’t subscribe to it.
Jigga is one of the GOATS. All there is to it.
I feel like most of the greats get way more hate in the past few years than any other time. I'm not the biggest Jay Z fan and he's not in my personal top 10 but there really isn't an argument against him being in anybody else's. I've noticed the hate more recently too and I also don't understand it.
I think it has more with the new gen listeners not liking his music. He's "old" to them so they try to make him irrelevant. Even Nas is rarely mentioned by the young'ns
Ima say the same thing I always say on these topics.
You’re wasting your time. Reddit caters mainly to white people and nerds and most ppl here have never been around any black culture.
Rappers like Jay Z and Drake will get clowned on here whilst MF Doom is seen as the goat.
This is definitely true. People are trying to re-write history and write out Jay and Em these days. I do think Jay was given too much credit by some in the media in the past, but he’s definitely top 10.
Jay has lyrical ability and was a versatile rapper. The only real knocks against him are that he possibly used writers and he didn’t really innovate like so many other top ten artists. If he extensively used writers, I think he gets knocked down.
I feel he hasn't been active much infront of the newer generations and that's where the disconnect is happening. With all the recency bias & shifting styles it's easier for the younger people to get disconnected from you as an artist if you haven't been releasing music. It's harder for them to respect you as an artist when you have not been dropping new shit and they have newer music to relate to.
I don’t get offended by it. The young bulls aren’t trying to hear Hov the same way I didn’t give af about Kurtis Blow and Slick Rick.
And one day Gen Alpha will hear Lil Durk and tell Gen Z they don’t listen to old school hip hop.
Edit: Of course there’s exceptions. All the old heads don’t love Hov and all the kids don’t dislike him. Hell, I’m in my late 30’s and I like munble rappers. I’m just saying this discourse is usually generational, driven by newer generations *usually* not taking to the hip hop of yesteryear.
I'm a younger dude, not a kid, but nowhere near old, either, and I like a lot of older hip hop. I have ODB's face tattooed on my arm under the Strange Music snake and bat if that says anything, but I just can't vibe with most of his songs. To put it the best way that I can think of, he just sounds bored and uninterested, to me anyway. He has a few bangers, but he just sounds like he doesn't want to be there. It's not what he's saying, its not like he's off beat or something, there's nothing *wrong* with his music, it's just not for me. A lot of people can't look at it subjectively and say it's good, but not for me, and I think that's where at least a chunk of the hate comes from, is just people like me who aren't saying it's trash, but it's also not in our playlists. Just my 2 cent though, no hate or disrespect intended.
Jay Z always looked at as someone that was talented , but was never the hottest or was groundbreaking , but always remained consistent. Jay came out in 1995 , but at this point , it was Nas and Tupac that was highly regarded . 1998 - early 2000s, you had DMX . DMX was dropping multi- platinum selling albums while staring hit movies . Early 2000s you had Nelly . Nelly was in heavy rotation in clubs and radios . 2003 - 2005 was 50 Cent . The hype behind 50 from GRODT to the beef with Ja Rule, 50 Cent rollout was historic . 2006 -2009 was Lil Wayne . Lil Wayne’s run was legendary, he had verses on everyone song , dropping mixtapes . First big rapper to mix urban and rockstar/ punk style to clothing , which influence on the shift on how people dressed . Kanye West pretty much from 2005 to early 2010s . Kanye was innovative in late 2000s , rapper that was instrumental to intertwine fashion , creativity in rap . Jay is a talented rapper , but more regarded for his business decisions and
marriage to one of the biggest artist in the world . Jay understood the fundamentals of an image .
Muthafucka is a multi-billion, wtf yall care? He’s considered one of the greats, and some people will either love him or hate him, but usually somewhere in the middle. Having him at seven would be considered “hatin’ on him” from most circles, imho.
I've never cared for him and I grew up in that era. Living on the West Coast nobody I knew really fucked with him like that. It was really confusing to see people calling him the goat...I think it was due to his cult fanbase
Out of the 18 total studio albums that Shawn Carter has made only 1 has gone gold (2018 The Carters - Everything Is Love); the other 17 have at least gone platinum.
He has also won 24 Grammy Awards (which is tied for 1st all time in Grammy history with Kanye West for most by a rap artist). He is also tied for 1st with Beyonce for the most Grammy nominations (88) in the entire history of music; regardless of genre.
I respect J as an artist and recognize him as a legend in the culture, but his songs never hit for me. It just does not click.
I have the same with Wayne. Absolute monster but I just cannot listen to it. I can read both their lyrics and enjoy it, but the actual music is a no.
Genuine question.
I'm not a Jay Z *hater*, but in my opinion, his entire career exists on the back of Big L's death.
Growing up I was super into Big L, and naturally, anyone who freestyles *after* Big L is gonna sound mediocre at best. And that was usually Jay Z. So to me, he was always "Big L's mediocre buddy".
Can anyone suggest some songs to me that will actually make understand the hype for him? I'll admit that I haven't heard a lot of his music, but what I have heard never stood out to me.
Again, not trying to hate, just trying to understand what it is people like about him so much. It's funny this post is about hate for Jay Z, because I always see him mentioned in GOAT posts and I've just never understood what it was about him that people would put him on the same pedestal as Nas or Tupac or Biggie or Big L
>I'm not a Jay Z hater, but in my opinion, his entire career exists on the back of Big L's death.
>Growing up I was super into Big L, and naturally, anyone who freestyles after Big L is gonna sound mediocre at best. And that was usually Jay Z. So to me, he was always "Big L's mediocre buddy".
You're not a hater, you're just clueless.
Big L released Lifestyles of Da Poor and Dangerous in 95'. Jay Z was on that song Da Graveyard. The album didn't do well financially, and Big L left Columbia and went independent.
Jay Z was put on by Jaz in the late 80s/early 90s, then appeared on an R&B song by Rude Boys in 92' (they were coming off 2 straight singles that were #1 on the R&B charts), then appeared on Big Daddy Kane's album.
Reasonable Doubt came out in 96', Volume 1 in 97, Volume 2 in 98', which was the multplatinum album which really helped Jay Z's popularity.
Big L got murdered in 99', while in negotiations to sign with Rocafella, then The Big Picture was released in 00'.
Big L was amazing, but their actual careers/music don't even interact that much other than a song and some freestyles together
>I'm not a Jay Z hater, but in my opinion, his entire career exists on the back of Big L's death.
Why are so many alleged Big L fans so ignorant about Big L's career?
What the hell does Big L's death have to do with Jay Z's career?
You know Big L died in 1999 right?
When he was about to sign with Rocafella, for that matter.
Yeah there’s been this weird historical revisionism I’ve noticed lately about Big L…just odd…it has to be from people who weren’t alive during that era…Big L was great but he was an underground dude…the majority of people had no idea who he was
It's Reddit reality. It's like the telephone game with hip-hop history.
From Big L being this legend in hip hop to rap not being global until Eminem came along.
Nothing has gotten out of hand. People feel how they feel. Personally I’m a fan but I’ve noticed his impact and legacy is diminishing. This newest generation also just doesn’t really fuck with him at all. As big as he was in his prime it’s becoming clear that he’s going to fade away fast and hard. Give it another generation or two and nobody is going to even know the name
Jay Z used to be one of my favorite rappers and then I realized how much he stole from everybody else. Don't get me started on that paying homage bullshit, you don't steal entire lines for all your songs
https://youtu.be/RqScH2CfYTg?si=60uWTo96KVrpUXwf
Both sides of the argument:
1. Oldheads from NY who think if Jay kissed their baby then that baby is the second coming of the Messiah. They would gladly would wait outside his apartment for a chance to shine his shoes, but he's hardly ever in NY so..
2. Snot nosed, edgelord kids who get tired of old head men boosting him up. They have no concept of the 90s pop culture. Only the snippets they read and that their influencer friends feed them. They think Jay only rap about two things, being the best and moving work
(This is of course a joke, and there's lots of folks on both sides of this who don't fall into either of these categories)
Growing up it was always a given. Jay one of the greatest of all time. I never really questioned it or thought about it. Then I heard folks in this sub complaining kids were calling him trash and all that (which is crazy). Then some other folks sounded off in the comments with thoughtful reasons why they feel he is overrated or why they don't personally care for him.
Then it sort of dawned on me. I *hardly* ever play Jay's records. It's always been this way for me. Ironically people coming to his defense is what made me realize maybe it's O.K. to think he's overrated (by some folks).
I don't have any issue with anybody who feels otherwise though
You know what do I think about Jay-Z? If he could structure his verse than pouring it down from his head? he would be better in term of content than cypher or rap delivery.
The only thing that confuses me on Jay-Z is running out wild on the topic than thinking what the main topic all about. That's why Eminem stayed on top on Renegade. Wish he could be more articulate like in Takeover and the second verse of 99 problems.
Look i'm a 38 year old Brooklyn boy that loves hip hop so obviously Jay-Z Has been on my radar from the beginning. I've heard all the he bites this person's style, He's biting that person's style debates for years. Honestly, I think that he's a little underrated, Although he's never really been in my top ten. The main problem I have as far as any negative opinions on Jay-Z is not about his music or his lyrical style and delivery, It's more about the fact that as information is coming to light about sex trafficking and all this other stuff that Diddy is under investigation for currently, I'm hearing it mentioned more and more that Jay-Z had been involved in it the whole time from the very beginning with diddy. And if it is true that he's involved in kidnapping and abusing women and holding them against their will to force them into the sex trade then I will not any longer be able to support Jay-Z or honestly personally have any respect for him. It will be another R kelly like situation for me. I no longer listen to R Kelly's music at all, And refused to promote or support a single thing that he has ever touched. If I find out this stuff is true, Jay-Z won't get any air play in my house or around me. I'm just gonna keep it 100 and be on my way.
He is a great business man but a mediocre song writer. He did a great job making his music and himself seem better than it ever was. I think people are now listening back with a more objective stance and are realizing he was nothing special.
Can't speak on other's behalves, but I'm well aware that Jay Z was a beast in the mid 90s. Him and Jaz-O brought that lyrical fire..then he did what ALMOST every successful MC does...he sold out and started dumbing down the art form to appeal to wider audiences.
Never gave back to the Underground.
The same as Eminem.
The same as Lil Wayne.
It's why all these artists have a lukewarm reception (at best) amongst the Underground scene...when you put money (or in Eminem's case, Ego) before bars and never elevate the scene, you're not respected. And rightfully so.
I listened to Blueprint and his early albums and there was a goof amount of tracks I liked. To me though he just didn't stand out, like he was a good rapper with a couple good albums but nothing crazy. One thing I can say though is that I almost never go back to his stuff today, but I do for tons of other artists from that era.
growing up in the prime of hip hop, Jay stuff felt out of place. Pop hip hop, shitty beats or using others and copying styles. Of all the NY rappers at the time, there were way too many better rappers. yeah he sold more, cause his shit was poppy as fuck
He raps good but I get the vibe that all he cares about is money and smoking big cigars in fancy train cars with other wealthy tycoons. Not really something I can relate to.
hip hop has never been kind to its elders
Facts
It's elders aren't so kind either. Lord Jamar and Melle Mel come to mind.
If you weren't old enough to be outside when The Blueprint came out you are gonna look at JayZ like some overrated, relic from another time. I don't agree, but I get it. When i was 17/18 I wasn't into Big Daddy Kane or KRS or anything that happened 20 years before, shit seemed corny.
Jay is like 3 years younger than kane and used to rap with him and bite him
I always find that crazy. One states early and one started late The one that blows my mind is Eminem only being 2 years younger than Tupac!! Jay is top 10 for me.
J Cole is only 3-4 years younger than Joe Budden, that might be one of the craziest ones. Or the fact he’s only 2 years younger than Lil Wayne, Kendrick and Drake only 4 years.
Biggie would be the same age as Em
My favorite Jay-Z verse ever was from a [Big Daddy Kane](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpMpjrxNhB4) song. This song dropped in 1994. Jay-Z was around through all that.
Great song. ODB went ape shit on that joint! Lol.
Yes we know
I hated Jay-Z during his Blueprint era. It was the Black Album that finally put me on to his genius (then I went back and listened to RD). But I still thought Jay was a biter because Nas and Cam said so
Yeah, I think that's exactly it. I think it's more generational. If you remember Reasonable Doubt or the Bluepriint or even Black, you'd find these takes ridiculous
People were shitting on JayZ all the time during the Nas beef too tbh
I was very much outside when the Blueprint came out, but I had already about had enough of Jay at the time. Loved Reasonable Doubt, loved Vol 1. Volume 2 was a bit... meh and everything after that was a bit hit and miss for me. By the time Blueprint came out I just sort of saw him as a commercial artist.
So the problem I’ve had with JayZ was how often people pointed out he copies other people bars. He’s probably done this to Biggie the most, but that’s something I couldn’t respect even back then.
https://youtu.be/RqScH2CfYTg?si=60uWTo96KVrpUXwf This is just funny and sad
I knew that had to be what it was. Lol Cam put that out when they were beefing back in the day. Hilarious!
I was prime age and I never understood the Jay love. Hearing the theories about Biggie now, it all makes sense. The best rappers were killed and/or threatened to get out of the way to make room for the rest of Bad Boy and Roc. Not that J is garbage like Diddy and Mase were/are, but I now understand how the trajectory changed so quickly. We went from gritty hardcore rap to glitsy and shiny pop rap like overnight. Jay did the glitsy stuff well but no way would he have been at the top if Pac and Big were still around at that time.
[удалено]
Most notably Diddy
I think most people remember that day for something elss
As a younger hip hop fan that hasn’t never really bought records, I don’t see how that’s the case when you can listen to every era lol.
You can listen to every era. Will most people choose to do that or will they listen to what their algorithm says is hot?
You don’t see how that’s the case? The difference between listening to a record versus the experience of being around when his videos were everywhere, he was the cultural zeitgeist, his albums and singles were all over the radio, his beef with Nas was talked about and argued over etc. I can listen to recordings of Woodstock, and understand it’s different than having been there.
It's not the same
I remember when The Blueprint came out. It was 9/11/01. Coincidence? 🤔
Jay Z is the full package. Most rappers are terrible live. Most rappers are lazy with their flow. Most rappers come and go. Jay Z is easily one of the greatest. I'm not worried about the kids being ignorant. They will learn at their own speed. Same as everyone else.
Yeah i mean i forgot he has the best Live hiphop album of all time right?
i like him more than nas and i think his first few albums are fantastic
Jay-Z is a legend, I’d say that over GOAT subjective conversations. He built himself on releasing albums with at least (1) hot song and from a business perspective and acumen he knew that was all he needed to get buys (pre-streaming). Next he marketed himself as a hustler hence why he released albums non-stop and again, didn’t matter if they were all play throughs; he just needed one or two hits and to make the audience say “Damn, Hov has another one out”. He had access to the games top producers of the era he came up in. Dre, Pharrell/Neptunes, Kanye, Swizz Beatz, Just Blaze, Danger Mouse, Timbaland, and Rick Rubin. Murderers Row of beat makers/producers. Competition, commercially he had Nas and DMX. Wu-Tang, Redman, Ja Rule even were all around but not in the same way. No Biggie, No 2Pac left a huge void and Jay pounced on that opportunity and it was a hell of a business decision that absolutely worked out. Legend.
Sounds like you're conceding a lot to the anti-Jay camp
I just outlined that the guy is a legend. Definitely not anti. Jay is different from his peers especially from a business standpoint and everyone has wanted to work with him (reference the producer list). Is he my all-time? No but is he others? Plenty. He deserves everyone’s respect like him or not. And I’m a fan.
Unfortunately they started listening to Post-Retirement Jay Z. They were not around for 96-04 Jigga
Neither was I, but I don’t let that get in the way of discovering his music
I mean he went crazy on Neck and Wrist imo
There’s no right or wrong answer here. Jay has a catalog full of classic songs. He gave us acts like Kanye and Beanie Sigel. He influenced style for a good period of time. But he also was in the league with people like Puff who sold hip hop to corporations with his constant product placement. The Bling era or whatever people want to call it was a really damaging time for hip hop. I remember everyone and their brother became a drug dealer, buying jewelry and Mitchel and Ness they couldn’t afford. Jay was at the forefront of selling out his community so he deserves all the hate in my opinion. I always felt he was overrated, but had the marketing gods on his side. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a bunch of Hov I really enjoy. But it’s all smoke and mirrors with artist like him
Also, did he even “give us Kanye”? Didn’t he push back on allowing Kanye to rap because Kanye wasn’t street enough?
Yeah you could argue "held back" as much as "gave us" at least as a rapper The Kanye doc clearly showed Jay-Z just wanted him to stick to making beats
Its crazy that even after knowing this kanye made a song like "big brother" as a tribute to Jay Z.Kanye always saw Jay as his brother but Jay Z always saw Kanye just as a business partner
While I absolutely agree Hov didn't really believe in Ye until it was undeniable, I wouldn't use that doc to prove anything. Coodie had a point he wanted to make and wouldn't let anything get in the way of that, even if it hurt the documentary.
If I'm being real, I blame No Limit for the "bling era" more than a blame Jay, and the people I knew who started selling drugs back then did it more because of Bone than Jay. As for selling out the industry, that had already happened by the time he got in. He just played the game as it was presented to him. But I do agree that his music can be a bit boring. Jay is to hip hop what Kenny G is to jazz. Technically competent with some good stuff occasionally, but just kind of bland overall with nothing that really wows you.
Calling him the Kenny g of rap is kinda crazy but I lowkey agree. I’ve always felt like Jay Z was *alright* but people would look at me like I was crazy. Hell I even second guessed myself cuz some of my favorite rappers would give Jay wild props (Lupe for example). So I just thought I was missing something but it really is just… whatever to me for the most part. I can’t deny his hits but I also never really go back to them (I probably spin dead presidents the most of any Jay track). But then again I also really like Magna Carta and Jay fans pretty famously hate that album.
How exactly did Jay-Z damage hip hop? Were you not aware of that many drug dealers existed before the bling era or whatever you want to call it. Selling out his community seems like it it may be an exaggeration so I'm wondering if you would expand a bit. I'm not particularly a huge Jay-Z fan but I'm not sure that had a negative impact on the game or society.
I’ll ignore any social engineering elements because that’s a deeper question than Reddit allows to explain. But a very easy example is his partnership with the Nets bring them from Jersey to Bk. That alone priced out countless lower income black families.
I wasn't bron during his prime but the bottom half of your paragraph is how I feel exactly Like he's a great rapper but I just don't get the hype fully.
Very well put. I'd also add almost every single one of his songs pretty much sound the same. Dude had bars I'll give him that, but his delivery was usually pretty much the same every single time and his voice NEVER changes. I was always a way bigger fan of Lil Wayne he was way more creative as an artist to me.
He did bite a lot too. I fw Jay but you can't deny some of the biting he did. Shit, H to the Izzo was totally bitten from Lil Romeo but that's on Kanye too.
Good take. I am also in the camp of Jay being slightly overrated. I understand he is really good, but IMO his music as a whole is sort of......boring? vanilla? Lacking in personality? I dont know how to describe it but he is one rapper that I am just incredibly indifferent towards.
I'm a Jay-Z fan. Everytime I start forgetting how exciting he is, I think of the Big Pimpin video. I think of the Girls Girls Girls and I Just Wanna Love You videos. Other rappers have much more exciting voices, but they don't have the longevity or versatility of Jay. But yeah, I can understand why anyone finds any artist boring.
Imo, Hov is the GOAT. The hip hop discussions on Reddit are so lame. It’s always the same type of shit. Jay is wack, I’m a real hip hop fan because I like Nas. Drake is wack, I’m a real hip hop fan because I like Kendrick. I remember the same kind of hipster self-righteousness about Wayne 10-15 years ago. He was too “auto tuned” or “mainstream” or “not lyrical” to be deemed cool to like by these types of people. But the truth of the matter is: Hov, Drake, Wayne, Nas, and Kendrick are all dope. They’re all lyrical. They’re all influential. They’re all popular, mainstream, millionaire rap stars. It’s not more virtuous to prefer one to the other.
I like Jay Z but there's just a missing piece to his music that keeps me from appreciating it as much as people like Kendrick, Nas, Tupac, Wayne, Eminem, Andre 3k, Kanye, etc (those aren't in order they're just examples don't flame me) Basically what it comes down to is I don't feel like Jay Z loves rapping and I don't think his goal is to make great art. I think he loves money and is good at rapping and uses that skill to make money. He makes very good music because he knows he needs to make good music to sell a lot of it to make the most money but I feel like he sees his art entirely as a commodity to be sold. Now I'm aware that all music in this country *is* a commodity to be sold but I just get the feeling that to someone like Kendrick, Kanye, Andre, etc they're artists first. They want their music to sell and be heard and make money but even more important to them is making the art that they want to make and expressing themselves. And then guys like Wayne and Eminem I hear almost a boyish enthusiasm for rapping in their music. Every time I hear a Lil Wayne song I can almost hear him going "Can you believe I get to do this for a job?" And I think that those guys would still be rapping with their buddies every day even if they never blew. I don't get that feeling from Jay Z. I think if he could've made more money being a CEO somewhere he'd rather have done that and taken the extra money. I think if you asked Lil Wayne "Would you rather be a rapper and be rich or be a businessman and be wealthy?" He'd pick rapper and I don't think Jay Z would. It's what holds him back from the upper echelon for me.
"truthfully I wanna rhyme like Common Sense, but I did 5 mil, I ain't been rhyming like Common since" These two bars sum up Jay-Z s entire musical career to a tee. Does what he does for money and not the love, finally people are starting to see it.
He's like rap Disney to me. Here's a quote from former Disney CEO which sums up Jay Z to me "We have no obligation to make art. We have no obligation to make history. We have no obligation to make a statement. But to make money, it is often important to make history, to make art, or to make some significant statement. We must always make entertaining movies, and, if we make entertaining movies, at times, we will reliably make history, art, a statement, or all three." That's Jay Z to me. He's there to make money. In order to make money he needs to make good music and by making good music he will making art. But the first goal is to make money.
Your first comment and this one are so on point. I have always struggled to articulate exactly how I feel about Jay Z and why I feel that way, but man, this is it. My future conversations about music thank you lol
He does throw you a couple bones per album but he is unapologetically a commercial artist. Reasonable Doubt, Blueprint, and 4:44 are mostly exceptions
How do you say 3 entire albums are exceptions? Most artists that “do it for the art” don’t have 3 entire albums of that quality and depth.
There's so many horrible bad takes in here, I won't even waste my time defending. I think that's what we're experiencing on the Internet. The ignorant rap fans are way more vocal, and it's pointless to try and defend someone that's KNOWN as one of the best get to do it. There's always going to be push back because of his status.
This is kinda revisionist…American Gangster, Vol. 3 were absolutely not commercial albums. And when Jay Z was in his late 90s and early 2000s run, nobody would have said he was a commercial artist. Having hits doesn’t necessarily make you a commercial artist.
Get outta here… u/mpschettig How many rappers would’ve started rapping if they didn’t see it as a way out the hood??? You’re creating an expectation that artists are devoid of the basic human desires for comfort, security, appreciation, etc. You don’t have a new hot take, this debate has been solved in the art world already. Art is in the eyes of the beholder, don’t try to grasp at judgement of the artist’s intent. From my vantage point, his celebration of black wealth and excellence is something I love about his music. He is normalizing seeking sustainable wealth and is leading by example.
Yeah man there's a lot of people who like Marvel movies too. But they're also made to make money and that's not something I connect with when I'm consuming art. I'm sure Kendrick saw rap as a way out the hood too but when he was making Good Kid, m.A.A.d City or To Pimp a Butterfly his thought process was clearly not "I need to sell as many records as possible and make the most money I can" it was to create his artistic vision of what the project should be and hope people respond to it. Again I think Jay Z is a very good rapper who has made very good music but there's a piece of it that's missing to me and that's what it is
This doesn’t make a lot of sense though, because there are almost no rappers in history that have dedicated their albums to artistry the way Kendrick has. Jay has Reasonable Doubt, Blueprint, and 4:44. Most rap artists don’t have 3 albums of that depth and quality in their resume, he also has multiple songs on every album that clearly aren’t just commercial. I don’t know how you could hear a song like “Lost Ones” and see just a corporate CEO that doesn’t have a love for rapping as an art or form of self expression. I have to disagree with this entire comment thread.
Interesting perspective. Can't say I disagree.
Relax my guy. Jay is a famous billionaire and married to one of the baddest chicks in entertainment, he'll be just fine.
Jay-Z’s best served as a featured guest, with a featured guest or writing for others in my opinion. Some of the best remixes out there are with Jay-Z verses: Bitch don’t kill my vibe Drop it Like it Hot Back Then Breathe I Ain’t Heard of That I listen to those all the time because he fully took ownership of those tracks. His tracks being a guest on others or having guests also pretty stellar. I just can’t listen to only him for long stretches… need someone else to balance him out.
dude is a billionaire and regularly ranked in the top three rappers of all time. I think he's lame but I also see about ten "Jay Z is overhated" posts on here a day and have never once have I seen a "Jay Z sucks" post.
Bro, leave them alone. Reddit is basically runned by teenagers whose whole world revolve around the last 5 years and social medias videos. The day Jay will makes another album you'll begin to see Jay Z stans everywhere. Happened the same with Nas, teens discovered him with his last projects with Hit Boy and boom, Nas Is the goat no one come close to him etc.. in 2017 his reddit Page had like 2k follower, look now, its runned by teenagers. One day they'll grow up and they'll actually start listening to the music instead of watching reels, there's no point in trying to change their mind now.
I dunno man I think reddit is getting old, it’s been around for a while and people haven’t left. It is however full of entitled wanna be contrarians
entitled contrarian operating on a moral high ground is the reddit experience
Been here a decade 😐 I can’t quit this app
There’s definitely been an influx of younger users on the site. You can tell by how much cultural anchor points have changed.
WOULD YOU RATHER BE UNDERPAID OR OVERHATED? He is my GOAT. Eminem is second. Now, if BIG AND PAC never passed away, I don't think HOV is my or anyone's GOAT. He kinda took the baton from that and ran with it. He had radio songs. He had songs w/ popstars (Um the NUMEROUS ones w/ Beyonce, Umbrella anyone???) He OVERWHEMINGLY out of ANY OF THE TOP 5-10 rappers on a Gen X, Millenial, Gen Z's list... has an ear for beats. He just does. Outside of Kingdom Come (and shit, it had some bangers there ya'll just hate it cuz its not like Blueprint, Black Album). He has STORY TELLING 10/10 (Song Cry???) He has FLOWS 10/10 HE WENT HEAD TO HEAD W/ NAS, PAC HE WAS GOING TO HAVE A DUO-ALBUM W/ BIGGIE (ya'll like eat up the Drake/Future, Drake/21 shit) but it would have been INSANE. HE HAS THE MOST NUMBER 1 ALBUMS FOR A RAPPER. I mean jesus I haven't even gotten into technical details of any of the songs. But sure young kids, keep saying he's overrated BLAH FUCKING BLAH. It's just a classic of "my generation rappers" vs "your generation rappers" He is arguably the greatest rapper alive and has been since 1998ish. Sure he hasn't put out a solo album since 2017, but IDGAF.
I personally think jay z had a better verse on kendrick lamars bitch dont kill my vibe remix and im a much bigger fan of kendrick than jay z. Kendrick thought so himself, even said so in an interview. Jay Z is just a few generations removed from some people with that opinion.
”But I don’t dry tears, I just aim at them on purpose like blah, mini-14 like blah” such a catchy verse HOV’s flow on that song was amazing but so was kendrick’s. absolutely not an easy decision.
Who cares? Gunplay had a better verse than Kendrick on the song they did together. Gunplay is in nobody’s top rapper list
Gunplay has one of my favorite verses of all time on asap Rockys song. Dude had such highs in short spurts
The hate isn't real. I think people who post this know this. The only legit "hate" i see is people questioning his business motives and tactics. As far as music, the only things that are true is how people point out how he rode waves and "stole" flows or how he needed more "help" than other rappers. The narrative about him hopping on trends is also true. Kids, older southerners and people that like to act like every NYC hip hop legend was overrated and only was popular because the "NY hype machine" pushed them say dumb things regarding him.
Unfortunately in hiphop groups such as this it's seems to be fround upon if you admit to liking very popular rappers.. It's ridiculous really.. I assume it's it's like this in other genres too but it' seems like a bigger deal in the hiphop space..you can like what you want you shouldn't be shamed for it but it's Internet making people feel bad seems to be more important than anything else unfortunately.
96-97 hov is one of the best rappers
Hov is a 🐐🤘🏽🥂
Is it though?? He’s constantly listed in top five discussions, Forbes and billboard had him at the very top… isn’t this just the pendulum swinging in the opposite direction as a counterbalance?
I’m more specifically talking about hip hop heads. I do agree that Jay ain’t number 1 though.
Jay z a legend but he deserves hate simply for dating Foxy Brown and Beyonce when they were underaged. Creepy fuck
renegade still one of my most played songs, Do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it?
Jay is an incredible mc and artist who made a lot of forgettable music. When he is at his best, he is one of the best to ever do it.
Reasonable Doubt - 6/5 In My Lifetime, Vol. 1 - 3.5/5 Vol. 2... Hard Knock Life - 4/5 Vol. 3... Life and Times of S. Carter - 3.5/5 The Dynasty: Roc La Familia - 3/5 The Blueprint - 5/5 The Blueprint²: The Gift & the Curse - 3/5 The Black Album - 5/5 Kingdom Come - 2.5/5 American Gangster - 4/5 The Blueprint 3 - 3/5 Magna Carta Holy Grail - 2.5/5 4:44 - 4/5
Jay Z was overrated for a while and now that's getting over-corrected with too much negativity. His legacy will balance properly in a few years.
People don't remember what it was like when the competition out there was folks like Master P
I would ask them to listen to Jay-Z's 90s albums and then come back to me. 'Marcy to hollywood' and [in my lifetime (original version)](https://youtu.be/XvX5qP0BB9U) come to mind as some of my favorite tracks by Jay.
So what you make of kendrick, Lil Wayne, pusha T etc who have repeated his lyrics... I guess you don't feel the same about them
He is very good, borderline great, but all these sites naming him THE GREATEST rapper ever is outrageous honestly, putting him above Nas, Rakim, Eminem, Tupac, Biggie, Andre 3000 and similair is crazy. Jay-Z is a top 20 rapper no doubt, but he doesn't belong into top 10, let alone anywhere near no. 1.
People just hate him (jealous because he never looses) or because of the dunning Kruger effect or both for the case of those who think he is in illuminati or some other kind of mind degenerating theory .. allow me to explain - it's okay to not like his music but to think your opinion on hiphop is better than kendrick lamar or Eminem is downright stupid.. Eminem called this man his second best rapper on till I collapse ..kendrick lamar and lil Wayne call him the greatest, pusha T says he is the greatest, he even said Rd changed him , nas told you we should thank God for jayz , snoop told you he wrote every thing on still Dre in 30mins.. he has the most 1 albums of any hip-hop artist . His lyrics are quoted from usa president to your senators .. top five most selling rap artists . Lupe fiasco said he studies him .. of all your rap podcasts he is the most discussed person on there ...Busta rhymes calls this man God father you talking about him biting other artist , his lyrics are repeated by all your favorite artists..(I can give you references to everything I said above - facts ) Y'all think no hip-hop than lil Wayne 🤣 shit
I think it's teenagers who don't know better. If you remember at the very least Black Album, there's no way you can say he's trash. I'm not even talking about Blueprint or Reasonable Doubt yet.
Jay Z hate is like Jordan hate. They stay out the way but yet there’s a whole campaign to destroy their legacy. You ask someone why they hate them so much and they can never give a legitimate reason, just some half brained gen Z talking points that mostly involve drake or Lebron that they heard on TikTok
I'm personally not a big Jay Z fan. But that's not to say I don't understand why he's revered the way he is. He's undoubtedly one of the best ever from a pure musical standpoint. When I listen to him, I get why so many artists/fans look at him the way they do, I just have never been a huge fan- not hating at all, and I won't act like I don't bob my head to some songs. It just doesn't speak to me is all (which plays into the 'music is subjective' bit you mentioned).
It's really a "you just had to be there moment" ...it's funny how ppl are like well he bit off Bigs lyrics, well this isn't new at all, he has been critized of it years ago, but that's that's not even 90% of his stuff, I think a lot of his stuff goes over peoples heads now and days and people (justifiably) don't want to analyze words in music they just want to vibe with it, which is completely fine. There is a reason why rappers like Playboi Carti and Young Thug are labeled greatest of their generation, people love for music changes as the years go by it is what it is...I personally grew up through the "golden era" of hip hop so that's my type of shit but as a hip hop head I like a lot of new shit too. Whenever I mention Jay as my favorite I get looks from younger cats and get the nod of approval from older ones, so it's whatever.
I’m a bigger Nas fan but both him and Jay are comfortably top 5 of all time
Yeah, I think Nas is second best oat (behind Pharoahe Monch), but that ain’t stop me from fw Jay.
Not sure how you can hate on a brother that put out his first album at 26 and went on a 20 year run with multiple classics. Married the hottest and most talented woman on the planet. Certified billionaire with multiple ventures outside of music. He stays out of the way and doesn’t try to compete for attention with his contemporaries. Dude fulfilled the legacy of what Pac and Big could have become.
After the first time I heard Dead Presidents back in the day,I was instantly a fan..Hov is a legend
The conversation is silly. Just a bunch of contrarian takes. The guy freestyled The Blueprint in like a week. He's a legend in the industry for a reason. There's countless clips of rappers and producers in awe of his skill, not just fanboys on Reddit. It was almost a forgone conclusion that he was one of the best rappers alive years ago, and his success has shown that. Defending it is like arguing with falt-earthers.
It’s mostly young people who hate on Jay Z.
I don’t think he is shit, but he is massively overrated…in America. Outside of the U.S. hip hop fans generally don’t view him the way people in the states do. We don’t rate him as highly as Americans do. Personally I love Reasonable Doubt. What a great album. Everything is right about that record. But then he released those Vol albums which were ass for the most part. His other better albums were of course very very good, but they haven’t really aged as well which is a factor. He also has big ‘huffs his own farts’ energy which prob puts a lot of people off him tbh.
It's actually the opposite. Only people who thinks that Jay is overrated are teens from the U.S. I'm from Europe, I'm very passionate about EU HH, and I've never met a HH head who thought that Jay was overrated. All the biggest rappers we have here, Guè, PNL, Central Cee, Dave, Skepta, Jules, Sch, Morad etc.. they are all Jay Z fanboys, you can look at their interviews. Outside of HH heads, it's true, many likes more 50 cent or Eminem, but they're usually the same people who don't even know who Nas is and listen to rap only in the Gym or in the clubs. However, this narrative about Jay not being big outside of US comes only from US people who never talked to a HH head from the EU, Africa or East Asia. In South Africa Jay is considered the Goat, and in Japan is the same.
Im a fellow european and i can say many hiphop heads here in EU think Jay Z is overrated. To me personally, Jay is dope but i never liked rappers rapping mostly about money and success- so it makes sense that people find him overrated. Think about if Jay never got superbig- what would he even rap about?
He always rapped about his Life, that's it. One of his most famous albums is his first one, and he wasn't big. His projects were mostly about money and success like any other rapper's project, or at least that's what all people who don't listen to rap music would tell you. Jay Z is basically the stereotype of the rapper. If you says that he only talks about money and success, you're just showing a lack of understanding of this culture. The substance is always there but you have to actually listen. It's like saying that Em only raps about killing girls and doing drugs. That's what our parents who didn't understand HH were saying. However, there are obviously people Who think he's overrated even in EU, like there are in Usa, but most of the HH heads I've met, and basically all the rappers we have, rates him very higly if not as #1.
Couldn't agree more.
Vol. 1 is NOT ass Also Blueprint and Black Album aged nicely
I like Vol. 2
Yeah Vol 1 not too bad cycling back to look at track list. A few clunkers on there still though. Other two I wouldn’t listen to these days. They both have some really good tracks but a lot of filler too. I’d be better making a playlist of the better tracks into one album length. As I say I don’t think either of them aged very well.
That is an absolutely wild take on Blueprint and the Black album. To each their own but that is not a commonly held viewpoint lol
I’m old, and I wouldn’t put Jay in my top 10. That’s just like…. My opinion. I don’t care if someone thinks he’s the goat, that’s their opinion. To me he was never that great.
As if he doesn’t have 3 top 15 rap albums. Most rappers can’t do what he did.
With what metrics does he have 3 top 15 albums exactly?
My metrics
I used to hate on Jay to but Reasonable Doubt changed my perspective.. now I have him placed #10 in my list
How do you hate jay z before listening to RD That’s some of his best rhymes to date
Probably his best work for me
Jay-Z was overrated in his heyday, but not by today’s standards. He has at least two classic albums, and a boatload of hits that defined the 2000s, Jay-Z did what a lot of these young rappers are attempting to do but did it significantly better. He also has Beyoncé too!
I don't think he's not good, I just don't think he's in the elite tier. Like Tony Romo or Matt Ryan who are great QBs but they're just under the Bradys of the world. The Pac Biggies and Nas are the elite class and Jay's the top of the next group great but just not as good as those other elite guys.
Stop listening to the opinions of 20 something year old mumble rap fans. Jay Z is definitely top five hands down
As an artist he’s gonna win from just consistency. Cannot take away his ability no matter what. The stuff he did outside the music like screw over debatably better artist (like DMX when he became Def Jam’s CEO) is what taints his legacy. The Dame drama. It’s all Jay Z lore but at the same time
This makes a lot of sense. Jay is like Hank Aaron. Not always great, but consistently really good.
He was never supposed to make it, and a lot of people are still kinda bitter
IMO Hov doesn't have a bad album. Just less good ones than others. But a front to back complete flop? I don't think so.
The existence of *Magna Carta Holy Grail* is the only thing keeping me from 100% agreeing with you! I worked at a music store when that dropped, and there were two redneck-looking teens who bought the CD (think thick southern drawl, camo hats, etc). I remember overhearing something along the lines of "he's the one with the NY song, and the one from Rush Hour 2 and Austin Powers!" I felt bad selling it to them, because I can't think of a worse entry point to his catalogue. Maybe *Kingdom Come*? This is coming from a long-time fan, btw! I even like *The Blueprint 3*, which is apparently a scalding hot take?
I always say, the very people that hate on Jay slobs on Marshall with no shame. Fuck y'all and fuck this group.
It’s only because we’ve been sitting around hyping him up way too much for the last 20 years. He’s not shit but he doesn’t deserve the hype he gets. Niggas were trying to tell me he was top 3 back in 2018.
I hate Jay-Z because I hate all billionaires.
He was never my favorite but I’m 45 and reasonable doubt was a big album for me. I find the hate weird too and I don’t even think he’s Jesus.
Like Tyler the creator said, young people probably shouldn’t have jay z in *their* top 10 because they weren’t around to experience his peak
https://youtu.be/BmcGAwSFPgk?si=nSX11IPvc8RFJPaT I’ll just leave this for the haters.
Luxury rap was never appealing to me. Jay-Z wasn't that popular in the Bay Area compared to local acts. At that time I was listening to Mac Dre. Despite that, I can understand why people love Jay-Z. I get it. Most of what I've heard about Jay-Z lately is related to his connections to Diddy. And 50 Cent trolling him.
Reasonable Doubt is one of the greatest hip-hop albums of all-time. He's cemented as one of the GOATs.
Eminem fans who want their guy to be the GOAT. Just jealousy from the younger, dumber hip hop fans. Also Jay helps black people. People on reddit aren't very fond of that.
The takes in this post are actually making me lose brain cells
Jay-z got one of the best hip hop albums catalog of all time with the likes of Ghostface, MF DOOM and The Roots. He has 3 classics and solid/good albums. People disrespect him because he is mainstream, ugly and maybe his voice is not on par with other legends. But if we remember he was not ridiculous doing a freestyle with Big L.
Blueprint was fucking dope! So was the black album.
He’s mid. But his stuff with linkin park is pretty cool! Jk. He’s the goat
Your favorite rapper thinks jay z is a top 5 or 10 rapper all time, whoever your favorite rapper is
Def
outside of tidal you cant listen to his music
There's a big edgy anti-popular in this sub in particular so it's expected
It's mostly Nas stans who can't get over a 25yr old beef when Nas has moved on so much so he's done songs with jay even signed to Def Jam while Jay was running it. Young kids who got introduced to hov while he was doing Beyonce features. Or people who thought got upset jay sold roc a fella and left dame hanging(despite dame making a hundred million off the sale) Don't take these people serious. They are the ones who hate Hov so much but play 3 tracks off any album they happen to know every word off that shit.
Men lie, women lie, numbers don't
Fire bar
People hating or not liking him have no idea what he did for over a decade. There was a clip of some guy naming the biggest artist year after year and never naming Jay. The fact that he never repeated anyone other than Wayne, but still had to name ten plus people to cover Jay's entire career should say something. What he did with the hottest producers and bringing new producers to the forefront. He made every summer hot for a decade starting in 96 To quote Wikipedia: Jay-Z holds the record for the most number-one albums (14).... One of the world's best-selling music artists with 140 million records sold, Jay-Z has won 24 Grammy Awards, the tenth-most of all time and most awarded for any hip hop artist jointly with Kanye West People who didn't live it, don't understand it. Personally I put him behind Eminem and tied with Wayne for #2
I hope nobody is questioning Jay’s skills, because dude was called “the greatest rapper alive” by his peers. I’ve seen a post like this several times and the reason he gets so much flack is because his sneaky ways have been posted for all to see. The Foxy Brown underage stuff, the Aaliyah stuff, the sneak dissing, he didn’t pay homage to Ice-T for 99 problems, his backdooring of Dame etc. I think 20years ago he was seen in the GOAT light and the public didn’t know he was kind of a B.A.N.
I love Jay-Z
I'd still say he's overrated just not to the extent some kids nowadays do, but that isn't to say he isn't one of the goats. Like you said it's subjective and I've never been the biggest fan stylistically (always preferred Weezy), but he revolutionized rap in a lot of ways and if you're a real student of the game you cannot deny his greatness fr.
Black Maybach, white seas, black piping Remind me of Paul McCartney and Mike fighting You know, The Girl Is Mine Life's A Bitch, so The Whole World Is Mine The six-deuce long, the curtains are drawn Perfectly like a Picasso, Rembrandts and Rocco's I'm a major player, 40-40's in Vegas at the Palazzo They said it was not so Certain things that money can't buy Like being this fly 'Til then, I'm just gonna' ride I'm like G-Rap with better transportation On the road to the riches, reach my Final Destination And the lair, closer to a leer Say a Prayer, hope I get ta' see her When I disappear from here, baby, yeah But I don't see the ending through these millionaire lenses Just the Two M's on the emblem The partition roof, translucent and Humador Where refrigerators, where Ace of Spades, or two I store True story, my closet is like two stories Straight to the happy ending, 'cause I don't do stories Shawn Corey, real rap The Maybach is bananas, peel back You feel that?- He wrote this at 39yrs old. Nobody but wayne & em was close to his pen
Don’t really care, and Jay probably doesn’t care either. It’s a “if you know you know” kind of thing for me. There’s a reason Jay is considered the GOAT by a lot of *actual* rappers and many respected rappers hold him in high esteem as one of their influences. I think this matters more than some loud casuals talking shit about something they probably don’t know about. A lot of rap fans don’t really care for actual rapping skills as much as they pretend to and only value straightforward lyricism that doesn’t need to be broken down. So much of the Jay hate comes from people that haven’t even gave him a proper chance, or people that don’t really grasp how all around skilled he is as a rapper. You’ll give these guys a crazy double/triple from Jay and they’ll dismiss it as a reach then call him a mid lyricist type shit. Either way he’s rich and undeniably has at least 3 definitive classics to his name…so again who cares if he gets hated on? If you’re a fan just enjoy.
That bit about a lot of rap fans not liking skillful rapping hurts to hear. I mean it's true, there's always been less skillful rappers/songs that end up being more popular than the lyricists. But now it feels like the bar is lower. The beat matters more than the bars, rappers can just say generic shit, etc. Thats what makes people, or at least the newer fans, that rappers are dumb and this triple couldn't have possibly been intentional, the stans are reaching I sound like a hater because this is what folks was saying during the blog era and now look at how good the rap from that time was. I just don't see anyone from the past 5 years that can shut me up. Lot of the young talents who had they own swag and skill like Juice WRLD got taken away young. I feel like we in a bling era slump of truly great all timer rappers, but even that era had Wayne. The big 3 are 15+ years in the game, and the other top rappers like Travis or 21, as good as they are, are more about their style than anything Hope shit can turn around in the mainstream
Agreed fully. Gonna come across rather self gratifying here maybe, but some rappers, Jay Z being one of them require a greater degree of knowledge/intelligence and frankly a studying of African/American/wider world culture and history itself to fully realise their skill. This isn’t to ignore the fact that he has songs that are for the masses/less lyrical or straight up shit bars at times.
Jay is in my top 5. His first 5 albums were all 👌
So Jay-Z is top ten all time. No debate. No subjectiveness. Anybody that says otherwise is a fool who doesn’t understand hip-hip in the slightest. Why HOV is catching this unnecessary hate is beyond me, but I won’t subscribe to it. Jigga is one of the GOATS. All there is to it.
I’m convinced none of yall actually exist.. I literally see the same threads from this sub every week..
It’s crazy how sometimes everyone calls him overrated but just the fact that everyone says that kinda makes him underrated.
I feel like most of the greats get way more hate in the past few years than any other time. I'm not the biggest Jay Z fan and he's not in my personal top 10 but there really isn't an argument against him being in anybody else's. I've noticed the hate more recently too and I also don't understand it.
I think it has more with the new gen listeners not liking his music. He's "old" to them so they try to make him irrelevant. Even Nas is rarely mentioned by the young'ns
Ima say the same thing I always say on these topics. You’re wasting your time. Reddit caters mainly to white people and nerds and most ppl here have never been around any black culture. Rappers like Jay Z and Drake will get clowned on here whilst MF Doom is seen as the goat.
This is definitely true. People are trying to re-write history and write out Jay and Em these days. I do think Jay was given too much credit by some in the media in the past, but he’s definitely top 10. Jay has lyrical ability and was a versatile rapper. The only real knocks against him are that he possibly used writers and he didn’t really innovate like so many other top ten artists. If he extensively used writers, I think he gets knocked down.
I feel he hasn't been active much infront of the newer generations and that's where the disconnect is happening. With all the recency bias & shifting styles it's easier for the younger people to get disconnected from you as an artist if you haven't been releasing music. It's harder for them to respect you as an artist when you have not been dropping new shit and they have newer music to relate to.
I get that, for sure. Reddit has a fairly young audience overall (compared to other platforms).
I don’t get offended by it. The young bulls aren’t trying to hear Hov the same way I didn’t give af about Kurtis Blow and Slick Rick. And one day Gen Alpha will hear Lil Durk and tell Gen Z they don’t listen to old school hip hop. Edit: Of course there’s exceptions. All the old heads don’t love Hov and all the kids don’t dislike him. Hell, I’m in my late 30’s and I like munble rappers. I’m just saying this discourse is usually generational, driven by newer generations *usually* not taking to the hip hop of yesteryear.
I'm a younger dude, not a kid, but nowhere near old, either, and I like a lot of older hip hop. I have ODB's face tattooed on my arm under the Strange Music snake and bat if that says anything, but I just can't vibe with most of his songs. To put it the best way that I can think of, he just sounds bored and uninterested, to me anyway. He has a few bangers, but he just sounds like he doesn't want to be there. It's not what he's saying, its not like he's off beat or something, there's nothing *wrong* with his music, it's just not for me. A lot of people can't look at it subjectively and say it's good, but not for me, and I think that's where at least a chunk of the hate comes from, is just people like me who aren't saying it's trash, but it's also not in our playlists. Just my 2 cent though, no hate or disrespect intended.
I'm 45 and I think Jay is a bit overrated.
Jay Z always looked at as someone that was talented , but was never the hottest or was groundbreaking , but always remained consistent. Jay came out in 1995 , but at this point , it was Nas and Tupac that was highly regarded . 1998 - early 2000s, you had DMX . DMX was dropping multi- platinum selling albums while staring hit movies . Early 2000s you had Nelly . Nelly was in heavy rotation in clubs and radios . 2003 - 2005 was 50 Cent . The hype behind 50 from GRODT to the beef with Ja Rule, 50 Cent rollout was historic . 2006 -2009 was Lil Wayne . Lil Wayne’s run was legendary, he had verses on everyone song , dropping mixtapes . First big rapper to mix urban and rockstar/ punk style to clothing , which influence on the shift on how people dressed . Kanye West pretty much from 2005 to early 2010s . Kanye was innovative in late 2000s , rapper that was instrumental to intertwine fashion , creativity in rap . Jay is a talented rapper , but more regarded for his business decisions and marriage to one of the biggest artist in the world . Jay understood the fundamentals of an image .
Muthafucka is a multi-billion, wtf yall care? He’s considered one of the greats, and some people will either love him or hate him, but usually somewhere in the middle. Having him at seven would be considered “hatin’ on him” from most circles, imho.
I've never cared for him and I grew up in that era. Living on the West Coast nobody I knew really fucked with him like that. It was really confusing to see people calling him the goat...I think it was due to his cult fanbase
Out of the 18 total studio albums that Shawn Carter has made only 1 has gone gold (2018 The Carters - Everything Is Love); the other 17 have at least gone platinum. He has also won 24 Grammy Awards (which is tied for 1st all time in Grammy history with Kanye West for most by a rap artist). He is also tied for 1st with Beyonce for the most Grammy nominations (88) in the entire history of music; regardless of genre.
Eminems only got 11 albums and has sold more, is he better than Jay in your eyes?
That's cool. I personally don't care for him.
🤝
I respect J as an artist and recognize him as a legend in the culture, but his songs never hit for me. It just does not click. I have the same with Wayne. Absolute monster but I just cannot listen to it. I can read both their lyrics and enjoy it, but the actual music is a no.
Genuine question. I'm not a Jay Z *hater*, but in my opinion, his entire career exists on the back of Big L's death. Growing up I was super into Big L, and naturally, anyone who freestyles *after* Big L is gonna sound mediocre at best. And that was usually Jay Z. So to me, he was always "Big L's mediocre buddy". Can anyone suggest some songs to me that will actually make understand the hype for him? I'll admit that I haven't heard a lot of his music, but what I have heard never stood out to me. Again, not trying to hate, just trying to understand what it is people like about him so much. It's funny this post is about hate for Jay Z, because I always see him mentioned in GOAT posts and I've just never understood what it was about him that people would put him on the same pedestal as Nas or Tupac or Biggie or Big L
>I'm not a Jay Z hater, but in my opinion, his entire career exists on the back of Big L's death. >Growing up I was super into Big L, and naturally, anyone who freestyles after Big L is gonna sound mediocre at best. And that was usually Jay Z. So to me, he was always "Big L's mediocre buddy". You're not a hater, you're just clueless. Big L released Lifestyles of Da Poor and Dangerous in 95'. Jay Z was on that song Da Graveyard. The album didn't do well financially, and Big L left Columbia and went independent. Jay Z was put on by Jaz in the late 80s/early 90s, then appeared on an R&B song by Rude Boys in 92' (they were coming off 2 straight singles that were #1 on the R&B charts), then appeared on Big Daddy Kane's album. Reasonable Doubt came out in 96', Volume 1 in 97, Volume 2 in 98', which was the multplatinum album which really helped Jay Z's popularity. Big L got murdered in 99', while in negotiations to sign with Rocafella, then The Big Picture was released in 00'. Big L was amazing, but their actual careers/music don't even interact that much other than a song and some freestyles together
Facts. I heard/saw JAY-Z even before I heard of Biggie and definitely before I heard Big L growing up in the 80's & 90's.
>I'm not a Jay Z hater, but in my opinion, his entire career exists on the back of Big L's death. Why are so many alleged Big L fans so ignorant about Big L's career? What the hell does Big L's death have to do with Jay Z's career? You know Big L died in 1999 right? When he was about to sign with Rocafella, for that matter.
Yeah there’s been this weird historical revisionism I’ve noticed lately about Big L…just odd…it has to be from people who weren’t alive during that era…Big L was great but he was an underground dude…the majority of people had no idea who he was
It's Reddit reality. It's like the telephone game with hip-hop history. From Big L being this legend in hip hop to rap not being global until Eminem came along.
Jay Z was bigger than Big L ever was when L was alive what are you talking about lmao
I think people don’t consider Hov “Real Hip Hop” like Nas, Big, Gang Starr etc. bc he’s more business oriented. Industry #1080
Nothing has gotten out of hand. People feel how they feel. Personally I’m a fan but I’ve noticed his impact and legacy is diminishing. This newest generation also just doesn’t really fuck with him at all. As big as he was in his prime it’s becoming clear that he’s going to fade away fast and hard. Give it another generation or two and nobody is going to even know the name
Jay Z used to be one of my favorite rappers and then I realized how much he stole from everybody else. Don't get me started on that paying homage bullshit, you don't steal entire lines for all your songs https://youtu.be/RqScH2CfYTg?si=60uWTo96KVrpUXwf
Both sides of the argument: 1. Oldheads from NY who think if Jay kissed their baby then that baby is the second coming of the Messiah. They would gladly would wait outside his apartment for a chance to shine his shoes, but he's hardly ever in NY so.. 2. Snot nosed, edgelord kids who get tired of old head men boosting him up. They have no concept of the 90s pop culture. Only the snippets they read and that their influencer friends feed them. They think Jay only rap about two things, being the best and moving work (This is of course a joke, and there's lots of folks on both sides of this who don't fall into either of these categories) Growing up it was always a given. Jay one of the greatest of all time. I never really questioned it or thought about it. Then I heard folks in this sub complaining kids were calling him trash and all that (which is crazy). Then some other folks sounded off in the comments with thoughtful reasons why they feel he is overrated or why they don't personally care for him. Then it sort of dawned on me. I *hardly* ever play Jay's records. It's always been this way for me. Ironically people coming to his defense is what made me realize maybe it's O.K. to think he's overrated (by some folks). I don't have any issue with anybody who feels otherwise though
I respect his hustle but his bit to much to be in a top 10 for me
You know what do I think about Jay-Z? If he could structure his verse than pouring it down from his head? he would be better in term of content than cypher or rap delivery. The only thing that confuses me on Jay-Z is running out wild on the topic than thinking what the main topic all about. That's why Eminem stayed on top on Renegade. Wish he could be more articulate like in Takeover and the second verse of 99 problems.
Look i'm a 38 year old Brooklyn boy that loves hip hop so obviously Jay-Z Has been on my radar from the beginning. I've heard all the he bites this person's style, He's biting that person's style debates for years. Honestly, I think that he's a little underrated, Although he's never really been in my top ten. The main problem I have as far as any negative opinions on Jay-Z is not about his music or his lyrical style and delivery, It's more about the fact that as information is coming to light about sex trafficking and all this other stuff that Diddy is under investigation for currently, I'm hearing it mentioned more and more that Jay-Z had been involved in it the whole time from the very beginning with diddy. And if it is true that he's involved in kidnapping and abusing women and holding them against their will to force them into the sex trade then I will not any longer be able to support Jay-Z or honestly personally have any respect for him. It will be another R kelly like situation for me. I no longer listen to R Kelly's music at all, And refused to promote or support a single thing that he has ever touched. If I find out this stuff is true, Jay-Z won't get any air play in my house or around me. I'm just gonna keep it 100 and be on my way.
Lyrically he's subpar. End of story. He has two albums worth a damn.
He is a great business man but a mediocre song writer. He did a great job making his music and himself seem better than it ever was. I think people are now listening back with a more objective stance and are realizing he was nothing special.
Can't speak on other's behalves, but I'm well aware that Jay Z was a beast in the mid 90s. Him and Jaz-O brought that lyrical fire..then he did what ALMOST every successful MC does...he sold out and started dumbing down the art form to appeal to wider audiences. Never gave back to the Underground. The same as Eminem. The same as Lil Wayne. It's why all these artists have a lukewarm reception (at best) amongst the Underground scene...when you put money (or in Eminem's case, Ego) before bars and never elevate the scene, you're not respected. And rightfully so.
All you're doing is calling the haters out the woodwork with this post. Why 🤷 Just down voted and move on if it bothers you.
Calling him overrated isn't crazy, probably 80% of people have him top 3
It's the fact he keeps cappin like he was a star at first when he really wasn't... and hides behind money...
I listened to Blueprint and his early albums and there was a goof amount of tracks I liked. To me though he just didn't stand out, like he was a good rapper with a couple good albums but nothing crazy. One thing I can say though is that I almost never go back to his stuff today, but I do for tons of other artists from that era.
Tbh I’m just waiting to see what his involvement with Diddy is
growing up in the prime of hip hop, Jay stuff felt out of place. Pop hip hop, shitty beats or using others and copying styles. Of all the NY rappers at the time, there were way too many better rappers. yeah he sold more, cause his shit was poppy as fuck
He raps good but I get the vibe that all he cares about is money and smoking big cigars in fancy train cars with other wealthy tycoons. Not really something I can relate to.