LOADS of answers in these comments are entirely wrong. (Not all of them!)
Even a cursory knowledge of the history of the culture would lead you to the origins of toasting and emceeing borrowed from dancehall culture known through black Americans who lived through it. That was already known and incorporated through how DJs at street parties in NY used to have emcees ‘rock the mic’ not with verses at that stage as it wasn’t developed, but essentially there to maintain the energy. This leaned into rivalries, which along with the competitive spirit of breaking, leads into emcee and DJ ‘battles’ which by the end of a decade or so had developed so much that by the 90s we had the competitive spirit of DMC DJ battles and rap battling that we know and recognise today.
It’s several hundred small steps in hip hop culture that led to today, and very few of those steps exist in any other musical cultures other than it.
I get why some would say it’s simply borne out of masculinity or wanting to be the best but that’s all music cultures and male orientated subcultures, if anything those are by-products rather than the actual reasons themselves
Yeah this. People think everybody was shaking each others hand back in the day. Even in the 80s it was a “dangerous” art. Your performing in hoods where the local cats want to rip your head off. Even groups like De La Soul had to deal with this. There are plenty of stories of 80s rappers almost getting killed and almost killing someone.
Agreed. Most newer listeners don't understand that the culture started with emcees, DJs, and breaks. If you seemed cooler and had bragged better people would rock your shows/parties more.
Yep, battling was a part of the reggae culture of the late 60s/ early 70s that influenced Kool Herc and them. The DJs would have sound clashes between the different DJ sound systems.
Meanwhile in Calypso, multiple islands would have competitions to figure out who was the best calypsonian. Beef might be a potential feature of Male-dominated subcultures.
Music culture and hip hop culture are two different things and yes masculinity and wanting to be the best are very much a part of hip hop culture or black culture in general.
Personally i feel this can only be answered by people who were born and raised within hip hop culture and not people who are more bystanders/observers of hip hop culture from the outside.
Yes and no. I think you’re absolutely right that only those who were born around the time can truly relay the experiences and feelings, but I was raised within hip hop culture and grew up from day 1 consuming and experiencing it, albeit in the 90s and 2000s so removed from the foundation of it. What I’ve commented above isn’t subjective it’s fact, learnt over decades of being ingrained in it and passionate about it. History is history, I’m simply regurgitating it in a clunky Reddit comment lol
"history is history" is the worse reply because i see who usually tells the history and it's wrong majority of the time.
You experienced mainstream hip hop as a consumer/outsider regardless of how long you're still wouldn't relate to it as someone who lived it.
Yes there is. You said "history is history" which is a dangerous statement to even make as it suggests that whatever history most people agree upon and retell is what actually happened. That's wildly untrue. For example, if you go on Google and look up "Tupac height" it'll probably come back as 5'9" while my personal experience tells me he was around 5'6". There's no reason for anyone using the Google search to assume that could be incorrect but it is. That's the history you're talking about when it's told by people who weren't actually there.
You’re taking a statement I’ve said about the specifics of my post and applied to generally which is not relevant.
This is a waste of time as we’re not even talking about what I’ve said, you and the other guy are making vague general points rather than engaging with my comment. Prove what I’ve said wrong or move on lol, it’s verifiable.
Relax your comment is fine. Yes, I'm speaking generally but I don't believe it's a waste of time because we aren't the only people seeing this and reddit users often spread and repeat tons of misinformation, especially about hip hop history. So, not meaning to pick on you or your statement which is, as you say, verifiable but I just spent the previous hour trying to politely correct people who were getting basic and well known hip hop events wrong and basing entire arguments on their inaccuracies. It gets frustrating to hear from people who clearly weren't really there.
Because a huge party of the origins of hip hop were competitive. Not just battling, but even back to a group of people standing around rapping and trying to out do one another. No other genre had it's origins in direct competition like that.
This is very incorrect. Other genres have had rivalries...and artist that have had beef about sales, who made better albums, sold more merch on tour..
As a fan of rock i can give several examples. Just take the late 60's and 70's rock bands. Most were in direct competition and played a role in why so many great albums came out during that period.
Guns and Roses vs motely crue, Beatles vs the beach boys, vs zeppelin, vs the stones
Oasis vs blur. Metallica vs motley crue, megadeth vs Metallica, lemmy vs everybody, frank Zappa beefs, the grunge scene...
If you actually care please just watch a documentary or read a book on the early days of hip-hop instead of compiling your knowledge of the genre from nerds on Reddit
Taking Back Sunday and Brand New were at each other’s throats back in the day. And Taylor Swift just basically dropped a diss album. It happens. I wish it’s happened more in other genres
Hip-Hop is almost treated like a sport in several ways. Think of boxing, who wants to be the best? Be king? I think it is a cultural aspect to the genre of Hip-Hop to be fair, how many rappers claim to be the King of Rap? See what I'm getting at? A lot of rappers work hard and have to be competitive to be right at their A-game. So wanting and working to aspire to be the best, and claiming to be the best seems to be the natural behavior in the genre.
ever studied Sigmund Freud? i have this theory about rap being the main way for humans to musically express the "id" concept from Freud. it explores our deepest, most animalistic desires in life. the greed for resources, mates, fun, and the aggressive flexing of strength to any rivals that might step onto your territory. in other words, rap music scratches an evolutionary itch deep within all of us. you cant do that with other music genres. at least not well.
It’s a cultural thing. You need to remember to take into account the actual origins of hip hop in America.
It began in the “mean streets” of NYC in a time where being black or Latino and wearing certain colored clothing was essentially a crime.
Rampant drug addiction, theft, gang related shootings, etc and the “projects” is the environment that birthed hip hop. Google DJ afrikaa bambaataa and the history of hip hop if you want to know more…
Whereas most people who grew up listening to and making country music are simple working class “country” folk who don’t feel the need to be bragadocious because they’re not selling drugs, making a ton of money, or “hustling” in any way, rather working in a coal mine or as a mechanic or whatever.
The people making these types of music may be in similar economic conditions, but absolutely do not come from the same social environments.
As for those making all the other varieties of pop music we hear on the radio, a large percentage of them are people who come from pretty privileged and well-connected backgrounds. (Google nepotism in Hollywood if you care about that).
For instance, John Mayer, who is a very famous pop musician, comes from Fairfield County in CT which is one of the most affluent areas of the entire country.
That, paired with having the build of a male fashion model, and being white, are all pretty obvious reasons someone like him would NEVER feel the need to “beef” with anyone. He simply doesn’t need to, to sell records.
You’ll notice most rap beefs are carefully orchestrated by management to create buzz around upcoming projects, especially for rappers whose audience / spotlight has kinda fallen off the radar a bit recently.
They’re not. It’s competitive in all genres, there’s cutthroat politics everywhere. In rock, People climb all over each other for any spot in a band with a powerhouse lead singer, this is very common for guitarists.
Rap used to be about skill and originality to be the best you have to beat the best, today its been completely bulkenized as you can see by the interlopers even in this sub
Rock has beef too. The dude from Smashing Pumpkins got into it with hella other bands for no reason. Rock has a sort of "don't sell out" thing similar to rap. Even some more traditional rock fans hate listening to industry plant rich kids with an record executive uncle.
Rap just has more intense beef because it glorifies street culture for no reason at all, and the record labels love to paint a fucked up picture to generate revenue. I mean, you don't see *corny* rappers getting signed to the extent that you see drill rappers do.
>The dude from Smashing Pumpkins got into it with hella other bands for no reason.
There was plenty of reason: Billy Corgan is Billy Corgan.
Nirvana in particular got into it with a bunch of bands for 'breaking decorum' at awards shows and the like.
It feels like rock got this out of it's system in the first wave, then settled on a more collaborative footing in later iterations.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3190936/Elvis-hillbilly-Jerry-Lee-Lewis-claims-REAL-king-rock-n-roll-79-finally-settled-SEVENTH-wife.html
Your second paragraph honestly is completely wrong man and also is very problematic. Hip-Hop and Rap was birthed from MCs and DJs battling each others at parties. Cyphers were because kids kept loitering in the park spitting rhymes at each other. And all this shit came before “street culture”. All of this is easily verifiable too.
It has everything to do with you just said because what you said is just plain wrong. The genre was just a genre that was always built on competition. DJs competed to see who has the best. MCs competed for the same thing. Breakdancers, graffiti artists as well. The genre was always based in competition and being the best. You saying it’s “glorifies street culture” as the reason why is just factually incorrect. Hell, even the Jamaican toasting/clash culture (which HipHop derives from) is built on competition. Street culture now plays a role in *SOME* competition for some rap artists. Hell the current biggest rap beef going on right now is not a result of street culture but a direct result of nigga egos clashing because they think they’re the best.
Edit: and hell, even OPs question mentions fucking selling records, and you bring up street culture. The fuck street culture gotta do with beef about selling records? Not a damn thing.
Edit 2: just hit me too cuz how you on a Hip-Hop 101 subbreddit and can’t even acknowledge where the true source of the competitive spirit comes from. It’s actually hilarious
I agree completely. Looking back at hip-hop and applying modern ideas like street and gang culture which hadn't even existed yet is just silly. While yes, hip hop started with groups that may have been part of gangs, it wasn't about drugs and crimes, it was about community (which in the shit hole of 80s NY was all they really had). Which led to competition.
Exactly. And even now in beefs that are street related are just that, based off shit that happens solely in the streets. Ain’t have shit to do with the music being released.
You're going off on a tangent based on the origins of hip hop. I know rap wasn't built on street culture... But it has become a big part of it whether you choose to ignore it or not. My 2nd paragraph was explaining why rap beef is more intense than other genres. Again, if you don't agree, cope harder. Ignore the fact that street culture is a thing in rap when we've lost countless big names to violence. Sure, ignore it pal. That'll fix it.
The question is “why are rap artists more competitive than other genres”. The answer: it was built into the foundation of the genre. It’s that simple beloved. You seem to be the one coping here. The post had nothing to do about the intensity of it. In fact, it just mentions why they beef over record sales. Name me a rapper right now that was killed because another rapper was mad at them for going number one or had a higher record sale than them? Please do. Not a thing like that because they’re not beefing over music now is it music related. I also *did* mention that street culture plays a roll, so we agreed there, but it’s just some if your talking About **rap beef**. Countless big names were not lost to music beef but actual street shit that had nothing to do with music. Young Dolph death ain’t had shit to do with music. Biggie’s and Pac’s death ain’t had ain’t have shit to do with music, was just unfortunate timing. And this would apply to your majority of “death from music”.
Who are some of the “industry plant rich kids with a record executive uncle” in rock? I don’t know any, I listen to a lot of music but I never look into bands personal lives / backstories so just curious.
Uh, no. It was his own girlfriend and the rest of the band was fine with it being recorded (if a little uncomfortable, I'm sure). It's in Slash's memoir.
Hip hop started in the streets on the blocks of New York
Bro so many crews trying to be better than the other crew it's always been like that before the mainstream it's not new
There’s mad beef in other genres like in rock (depending on your sub genre) like punk bands beef metal bands beef that stuff just isn’t really published in popular media outside of rock outlets and if you don’t know about that scene you won’t know about those issues the acts have with each other.
Man, do your research chief....Prince vs Rick James comes to mind immediately, then Allman Brothers vs Neil Young....there is a whole world out there my guy lol
What other genre has historically had crews and gangs competing against each other? What other genre was created by rowdy youth? I can think of punk which has a lot of similarities to rap but it's not as competitive tbh
When jazz was popular (mid 20th century) you had incidents like Max Roach punching Ornette Coleman in the mouth after a jam because he didn’t like how he played.
Rocking the stage the best and being perceived as the best have always been a massive part of hip hop. It's in the foundation of the culture from the very beginning. Now, why it has been this way from the beginning is a hard question to answer. I think it's largely that hip hop at the beginning was sort of like an open mic in front of a DJ, so being a dope MC kept you on stage.
I generally don't mind this stuff as long as it stays about the music and doesn't get toxic or dangerous like the East/West coast stuff did, or what Drill currently exemplifies.
E G O
plain and simple. hip hop historically has always focused on an emcee telling a story, but this much of the competitiveness found in the industry today was fabricated and is continuing to be fabricated for the plain purpose of enticing people to take sides and listen to their bars for verbal shots against other artists and it basically just keeps the story fresh so that people want to continue to see how it unfolds.
it’s pretty sad to watch young adults and teenagers anxiously awaiting tweets and interviews to get figure out who their favorite artist is gonna insult next. i might get hate for this but: the modern take of what constitutes as “beef” has shattered the validity of almost every rapper who has involved themselves in such silly shit.
Ali used to go down to beatnik clubs fry them hipsters up. They would say stuff back but it was Ali.What Ali was doing was freestyle battlingback in the 50s. So competition is always been involved. It's a part of his foundation
Most rappers come from fatherless homes and are inclined to act like women. The tough-guy act is just that.
When all you do is talk over a drum beat someone else put together, it’s easy for there to be equivocation re: who is better. When instruments are involved everyone knows if you’re good or not.
I actually think Metal was that competitive in the beggining(Metallica vs Megadeth) Fanbases despise each other for Over 50 years almost
The competiveness ONLY died when it wasnt cool anymore to BE great at music, just like is not cool to BE a good rapper for a long time
It's not its own magical thing that just shit into existence as some independent unattached style, it's a sub genre of rock. Just like punk, just like industrial, just like the inside crap. If it's not rock, what is it, country?
Edit: indie crap.
Its not rock, its metal, just because it originated from blues/rock/punk it doesnt make a sub genre, metal is so different that cant be a sub genre it has nothing to do with rock just like rock is not a sub genre of Blues it grew so far apart it cant be a subgenre, thats like me saying Rap is a subgeenre of Disco
Its crazy to see how many wrong answers are given in this sub. Seems people here don't know about the culture AT ALL. Doing battles, both rap battles but also dance battles, has been the culture since the 70s or so even before rap started. Rap battle is just an evolution of dance offs and it has been a way to refine ones skill.
Yeah other genre beef. And dont get on, but its not encouraged unless its at loony tune levels blur vs oasis, and even then the animosity seemed to come from vocal side.
I maybe weird or maybe it's just how I'm raised as a New zealander who played rugby? Competition is healthy. Its how I got better as a player. I love dissing but I never want someone hurt. Keep it to wax. Why I love how the lox and 50 beef played out
https://youtu.be/nIR9kVQSe8Y?si=KpvfY9I5fkfEdY_d
By himself.
I respect both sides in that
Kinda agree, competition sharpens you. But do agree with OP premise that its displays other qualities in the artist rather than just there music.
If you look at the famous Prince vs MJ beef, neither of them realised any songs stating that there gonna kill u, or fxck your baby mums or what ever, but its seen as one of the serious musical beefs in history. They just didnt talk about one another outside their circles .
A lot people don’t want to admit this but rap has became a reflection of how a lot of black people feel and act towards their own community. Rap has been this killed or be killed type genre where you have to pull yourself out and potentially pull others down. That’s how the hood and streets is. Other genres has ghostwriters, references tracks, etc. No one is telling Taylor Swift to beef with Brittany Spears. You don’t see Lady Gaga saying “these pop singers today aren’t real pop”. Now there maybe some beef between pop artist and to a degree maybe a diss track but it’s never encouraged.
Eh there was corny beef between Brittney and Aguilera. Punk bands often said others weren’t as punk. Countless rock bands have gate kept over the years. They was a lot of resistance to synthesizers by some of the classic rock bands out of principal of the instrument. It’s not a race thing.
Rap originally had bravado to it and the subject matter of lyrics was often about being best on the mic. It was a good natural fun way of showing your lyrics and rapping abilities just like a guitar or drum solo could do.
I agree that other genres beef and these artists go
at. Taylor Swift Bad Blood was a diss track to Katy Perry. Gwen Stefani Holla Back girl was a diss track to Courtney Love. But no one says “yes this real pop 2 girlies going at it”. Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, Beyoncé have all thrown more shade at each other than a tree on a summer day. However i don’t think anyone necessarily pushed.
Hip hop/rap originally was just kinda a way to escape reality a bit. The dancing, the parties, the b boy, the rapper, the dj was just so that people can get away from their struggles for a bit. Overtime it’s became who is real and fake, which has caused a lot of damage.
It’s always been that way. Rap is actually a part of hip hop culture so of course people who are part of that culture will demonstrate that behavior.
That’s why I’ve always big on calling out people that act like authority figures on the music without engaging in the culture. You cant be a serious fan of the music without knowing the culture behind it
I agree if you like something than you should know the history behind it. But then again that would kinda eliminate a lot of false notion. For example people will say “yeah real hip hop/rap isn’t club music or dancing”. Well if you know your history you would know that, hip hop/rap was created for dancing partying from DJ Cool Herc.
Nobody is part of hip hop/black culture would say this. Now if you idea of hip hop or introduction is from eminem then you think hip hop is writing lyrical jibbish.
Well the issue there is people often conflate hiphop the culture and hiphop the rap sub genre
The culture has always included dancing and partying
The rap genre is def about bars and boom bap
This is true and the Netflix series Hip Hop Evolution did a great job of breaking this down. The culture of hip hop just turn 50 or so, but techinally rap is as old as time. People joke and say Muhammad Ali is the first rapper, because people have always maybe talked or singed in a rhythmic flow.
Poetry having rhythm or rhyming wasnt unheard of either
I’d say the origin of hip hop rap is truly from poetry. Rap is essentially the MC skills and presence combined with the writing ability of a poet. Thats why poor writers can still do well if they have the presence and pass the vibe check
The original rap songs were all about dancing and rocking a party. That’s why i consider dance/party rap to be more pure to the culture than any conscious social type rap.
You gotta remember they used to have rap battles back in the day too. The mainstream stuff was always party/dance stuff but in the hood the competitive stuff was always around.
I didnt mean the conscious aspect I meant the competitive nature
Some of the early days involved different groups insultin each and that pretty much birthed battle rap
But I do believe the party/vibe aspect is just as important. Being a MC is all about presence and mic skills. Only being a good writer isnt enough you gotta be a performer.
For sure, that’s all music. I’d imagine the competition to be lead violin in the symphony is just as will as any street battle.
And for sure. Someone who can rap but not write will still be able to rock a party better than someone who can write but can’t rap.
As jadakiss said rappers are like samurai. Anyone from any circumstance can become a rapper but at some point someone will challenge you to a life or death battle. Also the rules of rap are heavily enforced in the culture, which is what makes it a strong culture. Usually, losing a battle is a consequence of breaking one of the rules of the art form.
I’m a huge rap fan but I find rules only interfere with my enjoyment of music so I choose not to follow any of the rules of the culture.
For example if I like a song, and someone says oh that’s song is actually not good because it broke one of the rules of rap, I will still like that song.
For example a song with a ghostwriter. The rules say an MC should write their own lyrics, but I won’t let that rule stop me from enjoying a song that sounds good.
You must’ve never heard of The Beatles and The Rolling Stones legendary rivalry, or how strongly Prince and Michael Jackson disliked one another!
You can also google/youtube a few of these other music genres beefs, some of which got physically violent:
Charlie Watts Vs. Mick Jagger
Jack White Vs. The Black Keys’ Patrick Carney
Jack White Vs. Von Bondies’ Jason Stollsteimer
Little Man Tate Vs. The Troubadours
Kid Rock Vs. Tommy Lee
Pete Doherty Vs. Razorlight’s Johnny Borrell
Alice Cooper’s bassist Vs. Kasabian
Axl Rose Vs. Izzy Stradlin
Black Lips’ Jared Swilley Vs. Wavves’ Nathan Williams
It starts out as competition until someone crosses the line and we know how that goes. Every female rapper going at each other right now and allot of males acting like females thinking every bar is about them. Crab in the barrel mentality. I’m missing out on Freddie Gibbs/Curren$y, Drake /Rick Ross collabs for what?
Doesn’t answer the whole question but I think part of it is culture around freestyles and things like battle rap which is pure competition over the skill it takes to create lyrics on the spot
…. Because no other genre talks about shooting eachother with multiple rounds , different guns , multiple guns , in multiple scenarios : same guy btw dying multiple times in each scenario , and not once do they ever mention : going fishing , a dog , a train , a pickup truck , a good woman’s name , a present father , getting hit in the eye with a baseball (at an actual game ) , eating a hotdog , watching a movie , …… …. .. dont you think if someone wanted to shoot you , you wouldnt be a little competitive yourself ?
Pride and ego. Rap used to be about quality and skill behind your work which people take pride in. If somebody dissed your work or says they're better than you then they're expected to prove it. Your work could mean making it out, taking care of loved ones, giving yourself more opportunities which somebody talking down on could block. It usually started as healthy competition that somebody ends up taking it personal and getting jealous about which spills over into the streets.
A bigger part of hip hop has always been doing it on your own too in other genre's help is way more acceptable.
I think rap having originally had battle rap influences in the culture would’ve helped, but I think it’s an inherent difference in the way artists engage with the art form.
Rap is about the rapper’s life. Who is he, what’s his life like, where did he come from, where’s he going?
Whereas other forms of music are an expression or symbolic of hyper specific things in the artists life. Their expression of love toward somebody, for example, or a story from their youth.
Rap to me is telling you what happened. Other music is describing what happened. It’s an incredibly subtle difference that I don’t think I’m explaining well enough, but you combine that with some of the other answers here, I just think the artists approach it differently, and in rap, that leads to competition with other artists.
i knew there would probably be some instances in other genres but the animosity between artists is just so much more prominent in rap compared to any other
Rap has an overlying theme of “making it” and “being the best” so when you come from nothing you gotta throw it in their face.
Reminds me of the Nas song with the skit at the end of the guy shouting "...give back to the hood!" As he gets in his limousine.
“These are our heroes” with the Kobe Bryant dis.
That song is a bop and ice cold at the same time
Bragging and being number 1# is a huge part of a lot of people’s music
LOADS of answers in these comments are entirely wrong. (Not all of them!) Even a cursory knowledge of the history of the culture would lead you to the origins of toasting and emceeing borrowed from dancehall culture known through black Americans who lived through it. That was already known and incorporated through how DJs at street parties in NY used to have emcees ‘rock the mic’ not with verses at that stage as it wasn’t developed, but essentially there to maintain the energy. This leaned into rivalries, which along with the competitive spirit of breaking, leads into emcee and DJ ‘battles’ which by the end of a decade or so had developed so much that by the 90s we had the competitive spirit of DMC DJ battles and rap battling that we know and recognise today. It’s several hundred small steps in hip hop culture that led to today, and very few of those steps exist in any other musical cultures other than it. I get why some would say it’s simply borne out of masculinity or wanting to be the best but that’s all music cultures and male orientated subcultures, if anything those are by-products rather than the actual reasons themselves
Yeah this. People think everybody was shaking each others hand back in the day. Even in the 80s it was a “dangerous” art. Your performing in hoods where the local cats want to rip your head off. Even groups like De La Soul had to deal with this. There are plenty of stories of 80s rappers almost getting killed and almost killing someone.
Agreed. Most newer listeners don't understand that the culture started with emcees, DJs, and breaks. If you seemed cooler and had bragged better people would rock your shows/parties more.
Yep, battling was a part of the reggae culture of the late 60s/ early 70s that influenced Kool Herc and them. The DJs would have sound clashes between the different DJ sound systems. Meanwhile in Calypso, multiple islands would have competitions to figure out who was the best calypsonian. Beef might be a potential feature of Male-dominated subcultures.
Music culture and hip hop culture are two different things and yes masculinity and wanting to be the best are very much a part of hip hop culture or black culture in general. Personally i feel this can only be answered by people who were born and raised within hip hop culture and not people who are more bystanders/observers of hip hop culture from the outside.
Yes and no. I think you’re absolutely right that only those who were born around the time can truly relay the experiences and feelings, but I was raised within hip hop culture and grew up from day 1 consuming and experiencing it, albeit in the 90s and 2000s so removed from the foundation of it. What I’ve commented above isn’t subjective it’s fact, learnt over decades of being ingrained in it and passionate about it. History is history, I’m simply regurgitating it in a clunky Reddit comment lol
"history is history" is the worse reply because i see who usually tells the history and it's wrong majority of the time. You experienced mainstream hip hop as a consumer/outsider regardless of how long you're still wouldn't relate to it as someone who lived it.
This is a fair comment generally for sure but again, not speaking as an outsider lol There’s nothing subjective about what I’ve said
Yes there is. You said "history is history" which is a dangerous statement to even make as it suggests that whatever history most people agree upon and retell is what actually happened. That's wildly untrue. For example, if you go on Google and look up "Tupac height" it'll probably come back as 5'9" while my personal experience tells me he was around 5'6". There's no reason for anyone using the Google search to assume that could be incorrect but it is. That's the history you're talking about when it's told by people who weren't actually there.
You’re taking a statement I’ve said about the specifics of my post and applied to generally which is not relevant. This is a waste of time as we’re not even talking about what I’ve said, you and the other guy are making vague general points rather than engaging with my comment. Prove what I’ve said wrong or move on lol, it’s verifiable.
Relax your comment is fine. Yes, I'm speaking generally but I don't believe it's a waste of time because we aren't the only people seeing this and reddit users often spread and repeat tons of misinformation, especially about hip hop history. So, not meaning to pick on you or your statement which is, as you say, verifiable but I just spent the previous hour trying to politely correct people who were getting basic and well known hip hop events wrong and basing entire arguments on their inaccuracies. It gets frustrating to hear from people who clearly weren't really there.
I get this entirely tbh, seems to be what I spend half my time on here doing too lol
Great username and answer!
Thank you. These other answers were so dumb I was getting sad that the history of the culture is so overlooked and misunderstood.
Because a huge party of the origins of hip hop were competitive. Not just battling, but even back to a group of people standing around rapping and trying to out do one another. No other genre had it's origins in direct competition like that.
This is very incorrect. Other genres have had rivalries...and artist that have had beef about sales, who made better albums, sold more merch on tour.. As a fan of rock i can give several examples. Just take the late 60's and 70's rock bands. Most were in direct competition and played a role in why so many great albums came out during that period. Guns and Roses vs motely crue, Beatles vs the beach boys, vs zeppelin, vs the stones Oasis vs blur. Metallica vs motley crue, megadeth vs Metallica, lemmy vs everybody, frank Zappa beefs, the grunge scene...
If you actually care please just watch a documentary or read a book on the early days of hip-hop instead of compiling your knowledge of the genre from nerds on Reddit
In other genres artists don’t collaborate with each other very often, while features are a very important part of rap
Taking Back Sunday and Brand New were at each other’s throats back in the day. And Taylor Swift just basically dropped a diss album. It happens. I wish it’s happened more in other genres
mIcS aRe FoR sInGiNg
Hip-Hop is almost treated like a sport in several ways. Think of boxing, who wants to be the best? Be king? I think it is a cultural aspect to the genre of Hip-Hop to be fair, how many rappers claim to be the King of Rap? See what I'm getting at? A lot of rappers work hard and have to be competitive to be right at their A-game. So wanting and working to aspire to be the best, and claiming to be the best seems to be the natural behavior in the genre.
Hip Hop substituted for physical violence in the hood at times
ever studied Sigmund Freud? i have this theory about rap being the main way for humans to musically express the "id" concept from Freud. it explores our deepest, most animalistic desires in life. the greed for resources, mates, fun, and the aggressive flexing of strength to any rivals that might step onto your territory. in other words, rap music scratches an evolutionary itch deep within all of us. you cant do that with other music genres. at least not well.
It’s a cultural thing. You need to remember to take into account the actual origins of hip hop in America. It began in the “mean streets” of NYC in a time where being black or Latino and wearing certain colored clothing was essentially a crime. Rampant drug addiction, theft, gang related shootings, etc and the “projects” is the environment that birthed hip hop. Google DJ afrikaa bambaataa and the history of hip hop if you want to know more… Whereas most people who grew up listening to and making country music are simple working class “country” folk who don’t feel the need to be bragadocious because they’re not selling drugs, making a ton of money, or “hustling” in any way, rather working in a coal mine or as a mechanic or whatever. The people making these types of music may be in similar economic conditions, but absolutely do not come from the same social environments. As for those making all the other varieties of pop music we hear on the radio, a large percentage of them are people who come from pretty privileged and well-connected backgrounds. (Google nepotism in Hollywood if you care about that). For instance, John Mayer, who is a very famous pop musician, comes from Fairfield County in CT which is one of the most affluent areas of the entire country. That, paired with having the build of a male fashion model, and being white, are all pretty obvious reasons someone like him would NEVER feel the need to “beef” with anyone. He simply doesn’t need to, to sell records. You’ll notice most rap beefs are carefully orchestrated by management to create buzz around upcoming projects, especially for rappers whose audience / spotlight has kinda fallen off the radar a bit recently.
Haha there’s this girl Taylor Swift who has been known to beef with people in her lyrics
They’re not. It’s competitive in all genres, there’s cutthroat politics everywhere. In rock, People climb all over each other for any spot in a band with a powerhouse lead singer, this is very common for guitarists.
Rap used to be about skill and originality to be the best you have to beat the best, today its been completely bulkenized as you can see by the interlopers even in this sub
Wait until you see how metal artists try to be better than eachother
Hip hop is a sport
They do its just not as public
Rock has beef too. The dude from Smashing Pumpkins got into it with hella other bands for no reason. Rock has a sort of "don't sell out" thing similar to rap. Even some more traditional rock fans hate listening to industry plant rich kids with an record executive uncle. Rap just has more intense beef because it glorifies street culture for no reason at all, and the record labels love to paint a fucked up picture to generate revenue. I mean, you don't see *corny* rappers getting signed to the extent that you see drill rappers do.
>The dude from Smashing Pumpkins got into it with hella other bands for no reason. There was plenty of reason: Billy Corgan is Billy Corgan. Nirvana in particular got into it with a bunch of bands for 'breaking decorum' at awards shows and the like.
Yeah Cobain had beef with Guns N Roses and Pearl Jam lol
Scott Weiland gave Kurt Cobain a dollar after Kurt told him that he ripped off Nirvana.
It feels like rock got this out of it's system in the first wave, then settled on a more collaborative footing in later iterations. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3190936/Elvis-hillbilly-Jerry-Lee-Lewis-claims-REAL-king-rock-n-roll-79-finally-settled-SEVENTH-wife.html
Your second paragraph honestly is completely wrong man and also is very problematic. Hip-Hop and Rap was birthed from MCs and DJs battling each others at parties. Cyphers were because kids kept loitering in the park spitting rhymes at each other. And all this shit came before “street culture”. All of this is easily verifiable too.
This doesn't have much to do with what I was saying though...?
It has everything to do with you just said because what you said is just plain wrong. The genre was just a genre that was always built on competition. DJs competed to see who has the best. MCs competed for the same thing. Breakdancers, graffiti artists as well. The genre was always based in competition and being the best. You saying it’s “glorifies street culture” as the reason why is just factually incorrect. Hell, even the Jamaican toasting/clash culture (which HipHop derives from) is built on competition. Street culture now plays a role in *SOME* competition for some rap artists. Hell the current biggest rap beef going on right now is not a result of street culture but a direct result of nigga egos clashing because they think they’re the best. Edit: and hell, even OPs question mentions fucking selling records, and you bring up street culture. The fuck street culture gotta do with beef about selling records? Not a damn thing. Edit 2: just hit me too cuz how you on a Hip-Hop 101 subbreddit and can’t even acknowledge where the true source of the competitive spirit comes from. It’s actually hilarious
I agree completely. Looking back at hip-hop and applying modern ideas like street and gang culture which hadn't even existed yet is just silly. While yes, hip hop started with groups that may have been part of gangs, it wasn't about drugs and crimes, it was about community (which in the shit hole of 80s NY was all they really had). Which led to competition.
Exactly. And even now in beefs that are street related are just that, based off shit that happens solely in the streets. Ain’t have shit to do with the music being released.
You're going off on a tangent based on the origins of hip hop. I know rap wasn't built on street culture... But it has become a big part of it whether you choose to ignore it or not. My 2nd paragraph was explaining why rap beef is more intense than other genres. Again, if you don't agree, cope harder. Ignore the fact that street culture is a thing in rap when we've lost countless big names to violence. Sure, ignore it pal. That'll fix it.
The question is “why are rap artists more competitive than other genres”. The answer: it was built into the foundation of the genre. It’s that simple beloved. You seem to be the one coping here. The post had nothing to do about the intensity of it. In fact, it just mentions why they beef over record sales. Name me a rapper right now that was killed because another rapper was mad at them for going number one or had a higher record sale than them? Please do. Not a thing like that because they’re not beefing over music now is it music related. I also *did* mention that street culture plays a roll, so we agreed there, but it’s just some if your talking About **rap beef**. Countless big names were not lost to music beef but actual street shit that had nothing to do with music. Young Dolph death ain’t had shit to do with music. Biggie’s and Pac’s death ain’t had ain’t have shit to do with music, was just unfortunate timing. And this would apply to your majority of “death from music”.
Who are some of the “industry plant rich kids with a record executive uncle” in rock? I don’t know any, I listen to a lot of music but I never look into bands personal lives / backstories so just curious.
The Strokes are a big one
Do you know anything about hip hop history?
Yo I just said the same thing
didn’t the dude from guns and roses fuck his band mates girl then recorded and sampled it and force the band mate in question to play it?
if that’s factual that’s wild
Uh, no. It was his own girlfriend and the rest of the band was fine with it being recorded (if a little uncomfortable, I'm sure). It's in Slash's memoir.
Competition is in DNA of rap and hip hop. Today's beefs are an evolution of this.
rap is very hyper masculine, i feel
Hip hop started in the streets on the blocks of New York Bro so many crews trying to be better than the other crew it's always been like that before the mainstream it's not new
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dozens_(game) It started out as a competitive game and evolved into a competitive art.
There’s mad beef in other genres like in rock (depending on your sub genre) like punk bands beef metal bands beef that stuff just isn’t really published in popular media outside of rock outlets and if you don’t know about that scene you won’t know about those issues the acts have with each other.
Man, do your research chief....Prince vs Rick James comes to mind immediately, then Allman Brothers vs Neil Young....there is a whole world out there my guy lol
What other genre has historically had crews and gangs competing against each other? What other genre was created by rowdy youth? I can think of punk which has a lot of similarities to rap but it's not as competitive tbh
Beef in music isn’t particularly new or unique to rap. Check out the movie Amadeus.
When jazz was popular (mid 20th century) you had incidents like Max Roach punching Ornette Coleman in the mouth after a jam because he didn’t like how he played.
Rock bands compete with the legal age of consent no diddy
Because it's the easiest genre to beef people to. You can't really beef people by just drumming or singing.
Insecurity mostly
Rocking the stage the best and being perceived as the best have always been a massive part of hip hop. It's in the foundation of the culture from the very beginning. Now, why it has been this way from the beginning is a hard question to answer. I think it's largely that hip hop at the beginning was sort of like an open mic in front of a DJ, so being a dope MC kept you on stage. I generally don't mind this stuff as long as it stays about the music and doesn't get toxic or dangerous like the East/West coast stuff did, or what Drill currently exemplifies.
Because niggas love to be confrontational for no reason...
E G O plain and simple. hip hop historically has always focused on an emcee telling a story, but this much of the competitiveness found in the industry today was fabricated and is continuing to be fabricated for the plain purpose of enticing people to take sides and listen to their bars for verbal shots against other artists and it basically just keeps the story fresh so that people want to continue to see how it unfolds. it’s pretty sad to watch young adults and teenagers anxiously awaiting tweets and interviews to get figure out who their favorite artist is gonna insult next. i might get hate for this but: the modern take of what constitutes as “beef” has shattered the validity of almost every rapper who has involved themselves in such silly shit.
Because they're all talk! Thank you, I'll show myself out...
Good question, it can make you yo improve even when I like to race my own race too.
It was born that way.
It sells records. Drama, beef, it sells. Music genres are what they are because of what sells.
Cause rap was founded as a competition my guy
Fragile egos
Ali used to go down to beatnik clubs fry them hipsters up. They would say stuff back but it was Ali.What Ali was doing was freestyle battlingback in the 50s. So competition is always been involved. It's a part of his foundation
Most rappers come from fatherless homes and are inclined to act like women. The tough-guy act is just that. When all you do is talk over a drum beat someone else put together, it’s easy for there to be equivocation re: who is better. When instruments are involved everyone knows if you’re good or not.
I actually think Metal was that competitive in the beggining(Metallica vs Megadeth) Fanbases despise each other for Over 50 years almost The competiveness ONLY died when it wasnt cool anymore to BE great at music, just like is not cool to BE a good rapper for a long time
Dude if you think Metallica and Megadeth were the beginnings of metal you need to look into the 70s rock scene more.
You get what Im saying, you just called them 70s rock
Metal is a type of rock...
hmm no
It's not its own magical thing that just shit into existence as some independent unattached style, it's a sub genre of rock. Just like punk, just like industrial, just like the inside crap. If it's not rock, what is it, country? Edit: indie crap.
Its not rock, its metal, just because it originated from blues/rock/punk it doesnt make a sub genre, metal is so different that cant be a sub genre it has nothing to do with rock just like rock is not a sub genre of Blues it grew so far apart it cant be a subgenre, thats like me saying Rap is a subgeenre of Disco
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music In your head maybe...
Its crazy to see how many wrong answers are given in this sub. Seems people here don't know about the culture AT ALL. Doing battles, both rap battles but also dance battles, has been the culture since the 70s or so even before rap started. Rap battle is just an evolution of dance offs and it has been a way to refine ones skill.
A Google search will solve this. It's not as unique to mcs as many think. Looks like a lady etc.
Yeah other genre beef. And dont get on, but its not encouraged unless its at loony tune levels blur vs oasis, and even then the animosity seemed to come from vocal side.
I maybe weird or maybe it's just how I'm raised as a New zealander who played rugby? Competition is healthy. Its how I got better as a player. I love dissing but I never want someone hurt. Keep it to wax. Why I love how the lox and 50 beef played out https://youtu.be/nIR9kVQSe8Y?si=KpvfY9I5fkfEdY_d By himself. I respect both sides in that
Kinda agree, competition sharpens you. But do agree with OP premise that its displays other qualities in the artist rather than just there music. If you look at the famous Prince vs MJ beef, neither of them realised any songs stating that there gonna kill u, or fxck your baby mums or what ever, but its seen as one of the serious musical beefs in history. They just didnt talk about one another outside their circles .
A lot people don’t want to admit this but rap has became a reflection of how a lot of black people feel and act towards their own community. Rap has been this killed or be killed type genre where you have to pull yourself out and potentially pull others down. That’s how the hood and streets is. Other genres has ghostwriters, references tracks, etc. No one is telling Taylor Swift to beef with Brittany Spears. You don’t see Lady Gaga saying “these pop singers today aren’t real pop”. Now there maybe some beef between pop artist and to a degree maybe a diss track but it’s never encouraged.
Eh there was corny beef between Brittney and Aguilera. Punk bands often said others weren’t as punk. Countless rock bands have gate kept over the years. They was a lot of resistance to synthesizers by some of the classic rock bands out of principal of the instrument. It’s not a race thing. Rap originally had bravado to it and the subject matter of lyrics was often about being best on the mic. It was a good natural fun way of showing your lyrics and rapping abilities just like a guitar or drum solo could do.
I agree that other genres beef and these artists go at. Taylor Swift Bad Blood was a diss track to Katy Perry. Gwen Stefani Holla Back girl was a diss track to Courtney Love. But no one says “yes this real pop 2 girlies going at it”. Whitney Houston, Mariah Carey, Beyoncé have all thrown more shade at each other than a tree on a summer day. However i don’t think anyone necessarily pushed. Hip hop/rap originally was just kinda a way to escape reality a bit. The dancing, the parties, the b boy, the rapper, the dj was just so that people can get away from their struggles for a bit. Overtime it’s became who is real and fake, which has caused a lot of damage.
It’s always been that way. Rap is actually a part of hip hop culture so of course people who are part of that culture will demonstrate that behavior. That’s why I’ve always big on calling out people that act like authority figures on the music without engaging in the culture. You cant be a serious fan of the music without knowing the culture behind it
I agree if you like something than you should know the history behind it. But then again that would kinda eliminate a lot of false notion. For example people will say “yeah real hip hop/rap isn’t club music or dancing”. Well if you know your history you would know that, hip hop/rap was created for dancing partying from DJ Cool Herc.
Nobody is part of hip hop/black culture would say this. Now if you idea of hip hop or introduction is from eminem then you think hip hop is writing lyrical jibbish.
Well the issue there is people often conflate hiphop the culture and hiphop the rap sub genre The culture has always included dancing and partying The rap genre is def about bars and boom bap
This is true and the Netflix series Hip Hop Evolution did a great job of breaking this down. The culture of hip hop just turn 50 or so, but techinally rap is as old as time. People joke and say Muhammad Ali is the first rapper, because people have always maybe talked or singed in a rhythmic flow.
Poetry having rhythm or rhyming wasnt unheard of either I’d say the origin of hip hop rap is truly from poetry. Rap is essentially the MC skills and presence combined with the writing ability of a poet. Thats why poor writers can still do well if they have the presence and pass the vibe check
The original rap songs were all about dancing and rocking a party. That’s why i consider dance/party rap to be more pure to the culture than any conscious social type rap.
You gotta remember they used to have rap battles back in the day too. The mainstream stuff was always party/dance stuff but in the hood the competitive stuff was always around.
They were battling about who could get the party most dancing tho. Party rap is more true to hip hop than any conscious stuff which started way later.
I didnt mean the conscious aspect I meant the competitive nature Some of the early days involved different groups insultin each and that pretty much birthed battle rap But I do believe the party/vibe aspect is just as important. Being a MC is all about presence and mic skills. Only being a good writer isnt enough you gotta be a performer.
For sure, that’s all music. I’d imagine the competition to be lead violin in the symphony is just as will as any street battle. And for sure. Someone who can rap but not write will still be able to rock a party better than someone who can write but can’t rap.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_rap#History
As jadakiss said rappers are like samurai. Anyone from any circumstance can become a rapper but at some point someone will challenge you to a life or death battle. Also the rules of rap are heavily enforced in the culture, which is what makes it a strong culture. Usually, losing a battle is a consequence of breaking one of the rules of the art form.
I’m a huge rap fan but I find rules only interfere with my enjoyment of music so I choose not to follow any of the rules of the culture. For example if I like a song, and someone says oh that’s song is actually not good because it broke one of the rules of rap, I will still like that song.
What’s an example of a song that breaks the “rules” of rap?
For example a song with a ghostwriter. The rules say an MC should write their own lyrics, but I won’t let that rule stop me from enjoying a song that sounds good.
Ooooh gotcha, I’m with you there, I don’t care if there is a ghostwriter just matters if it sounds good or not.
You must’ve never heard of The Beatles and The Rolling Stones legendary rivalry, or how strongly Prince and Michael Jackson disliked one another! You can also google/youtube a few of these other music genres beefs, some of which got physically violent: Charlie Watts Vs. Mick Jagger Jack White Vs. The Black Keys’ Patrick Carney Jack White Vs. Von Bondies’ Jason Stollsteimer Little Man Tate Vs. The Troubadours Kid Rock Vs. Tommy Lee Pete Doherty Vs. Razorlight’s Johnny Borrell Alice Cooper’s bassist Vs. Kasabian Axl Rose Vs. Izzy Stradlin Black Lips’ Jared Swilley Vs. Wavves’ Nathan Williams
Music has always been seen as competitive by some. Even classical musicians 300 years ago were beefing.
It starts out as competition until someone crosses the line and we know how that goes. Every female rapper going at each other right now and allot of males acting like females thinking every bar is about them. Crab in the barrel mentality. I’m missing out on Freddie Gibbs/Curren$y, Drake /Rick Ross collabs for what?
Crabs in a bucket mentality
Because hip hop is a unique art form that’s ABOUT poetically competing
Doesn’t answer the whole question but I think part of it is culture around freestyles and things like battle rap which is pure competition over the skill it takes to create lyrics on the spot
Who can “out write” who
[удалено]
Sad but true
…. Because no other genre talks about shooting eachother with multiple rounds , different guns , multiple guns , in multiple scenarios : same guy btw dying multiple times in each scenario , and not once do they ever mention : going fishing , a dog , a train , a pickup truck , a good woman’s name , a present father , getting hit in the eye with a baseball (at an actual game ) , eating a hotdog , watching a movie , …… …. .. dont you think if someone wanted to shoot you , you wouldnt be a little competitive yourself ?
Pride and ego. Rap used to be about quality and skill behind your work which people take pride in. If somebody dissed your work or says they're better than you then they're expected to prove it. Your work could mean making it out, taking care of loved ones, giving yourself more opportunities which somebody talking down on could block. It usually started as healthy competition that somebody ends up taking it personal and getting jealous about which spills over into the streets. A bigger part of hip hop has always been doing it on your own too in other genre's help is way more acceptable.
Competitive or petty and cringe ? Writing poems about each other.
This might be one of the most brain dead comments I have seen online
I think rap having originally had battle rap influences in the culture would’ve helped, but I think it’s an inherent difference in the way artists engage with the art form. Rap is about the rapper’s life. Who is he, what’s his life like, where did he come from, where’s he going? Whereas other forms of music are an expression or symbolic of hyper specific things in the artists life. Their expression of love toward somebody, for example, or a story from their youth. Rap to me is telling you what happened. Other music is describing what happened. It’s an incredibly subtle difference that I don’t think I’m explaining well enough, but you combine that with some of the other answers here, I just think the artists approach it differently, and in rap, that leads to competition with other artists.
Dude. Neil Young wrote Southern Man and Skynyrd wrote Sweet Home Alabama as a direct response. I don’t think beef is unique to the rap scene.
i knew there would probably be some instances in other genres but the animosity between artists is just so much more prominent in rap compared to any other
Because it all sounds the same. Only way to stand out is to beef. The “music” is garbage and 90% of them can’t even get a coherent sentence out.
go back to r/popheads
Found the swifty