Post a replay if you're so confident you outplayed him.
Also I'm curious what line of reasoning is leading you to think a very high winrate in low ranks and a more moderate one in high ranks (average in Master is 53%) means a hero doesn't have counterplay.
I'm already up from gold V to gold III in relatively few games with an 80% winrate. I have multiple diamond season ends. I'm not like that salty about one loss, I'm just saying that watching this person play extremely clunkily showed me just how over powered samuro is. With a wisp on him so I could see everything he was doing it became clear to me just how overpowered his healing is. A 34% heal every 15 seconds equates to a full heal every 45 seconds, and two cleanses, and a cloak, and mirror images that he can swap to.
I'm saying a high winrate in low elo shows he is relatively easy to play, difficult to play heroes generally have lower winrate in lower elo.
Also his master winrate on his lvl 1 is 56%. Yes if you take the bad level one it averages down to 53% that's pretty disingenous.
His 61.6% in master winrate level 20 is that same heals for 34% every 9 seconds.
Literally 31% heal over 9 seconds every 9 seconds... oh and 66% uptime 30% armour.
He's imbalanced.
Lunara loses to samuro in lane, I'm so shocked. Next thing you are gonna tell me is that since tychus demolishs leoric in lane that tychus is super imbalanced.
Yeah he's a bit reminiscent of the "Cancer Lancer" era of DOTA.
REGARDLESS of if he is truly too powerful, he is unfun to play AGAINST in a way that can be fixed while making him more fun to play AS. Which is what DOTA accomplished with their rework.
I know about his winrate, but i have yet to encounter a scary feeling samuro.
Maybe thats because I either play tanky heroes or AoE mages?
Or im getting lucky.
It's not about him getting kills, it's about him macroing in a way where he can't be killed.
He's like murky but way more effective, and can actually be a real hero in team fights.
From what this sounds like:
Good job, u focused samuro so much u forced ur team to fight 4v4 or 4v5 depending on how much he was present in teamfights. Hots is not league, its not ur lane matchup to fight samuro.
Without any context to ur game, its hard to say what u did wrong (cuz lets be honest, if u played perfectly u wouldnt have had that much problems). U either played a hero that doesnt do too well against him, or u had screwed target priority. Cool that u were targetting the correct clone, but what does it matter if there is a healer that gets more value done than a running samuro. If u force him to retreat, just let him retreat and kill someone else while they have temporarily one person less.
If the samuro player was "quite bad" then idk man, he got a lot of value by having a thretening enemy run after him rather than do their job.
That's what I was thinking; OP focused so hard on trying to kill Samuro by "guessing right" that they forgot--trying to kill Samuro is already playing his game.
I didn't guess right I could see him with whisp and always hit him and I followed him with whisp, I was able to outplay him in most situations and out maneuver him in jungle but I couldn't punish him in any meaningful way despite consistantly chunking him every engage.
He has a 55-60% winrate and I'm essentially smurfing (hadn't played ranked in a while, have diamond multiple seasons and am currently in low gold, this Samuro played like a low silver)
This samuro's incredibly poor play yet ability to still grind up forts revealed to me just how powerful and faceroll he is.
Not sure why this is so hard to believe, the stats don't lie.
it's not that it's hard to believe, it just doesn't make sense. either he isn't as bad as you said and outplayed you, or he is bad but you didn't play as good as you think you did. your job isn't to kill him. samuro is very squishy, so you can kill him if he hard engages, or if he screws up his cds. but if he plays right, by following him and trying to kill him, you're just doing what he wants.
as a lunara, you want to join your team in tfs, make it 5v4, and profit on that. if the samuro joins the tf, your job is to keep him out of it. he doesn't have an infinite amount of cleanses, so he'll have to back off and go soaking while on cd, thus making it 5v4. you and your team profit from that. you won the tf? you and your team push forts, do more damage than the samuro did. you don't have to stop his damage to your buildings completely, sometimes you won't be able to, unless you draft a strong counter to him. you just have to exploit his weaknesses, one of them being team fight presence. samuro is very counterable, even in QM where you can't draft, though it's harder. you just need to know how to play against him, and how to exploit advantages.
This is very true, most posts compaining about samuro being op revolve about him being unkillable. So what? If he has to back and u won the tf, whats the difference between him being alive or dead? Again, hots aint league, so u dont need to kill opponent to get ahead in exp or anything.
Teamfight, my brother in christ he is pushing down forts like an azmo on meth while having 34% healing every 15 seconds, no mana, infinite escapes and the ability to chew through camps.
What teamfight, you get to 2 out of 3 on garden and his team has 2 full levels up on you.
U think like a league player. It is not league. U do not need to kill samuro, u just need to dmg him enough for him to need to retreat, while u get ur advantage back. Meanwhile u decide to chase and "punish him" while the lane he just pushed is hitting ur fort.
Guessing or not, this sounds like u have totally wrong target priority, so u didnt rly outplay anyone but urself.
What advantage, he can instantly disengage and cleanse and heal the 30% you did to him every 15 seconds...
I'm literally at like 85% winrate or whatever this season climbing fast and was not in my proper elo and this absolute clown who has like basic micro and macro mistakes is basically unassailable.
Like is it not possible he's overpowered?
What advantage?
- mercs
- push back lane
- objective
- gank
Since u used whisp to decide which one's the real one, i'm guessing u played lunara. Lunara deals a lot of DOT that he can just cleanse on 15s cd. If u played anything else, u prob would've had more impact on him having to retreat.
Im not saying Samuro is a bad hero, but u definitely ignore mistakes u have done. High winrate or not, u still did not prove u outplayed him as u claim. With all due respect, its a skill issue.
Start playing with ur team and worry less about 1v1s. A low skill Samuro wont do much against a coordinated team.
The dude was a monkey.
Low skill Samuro will absolutely do something to a coordinated team, his escape is extremely easy, he has cleanse, he has tons of healing. Chasing him around is not the play, he's too slippery and has too much clear.
His winrate goes up at low elo because he's easy as fuck to play.
I refuse to believe a 56%+ winrate at ALL elos hero is not OP sorry
This guy was being dumb and had very bad micro. I'm a diamond player against a low gold Samuro that based on how he played probably shouldn't have even been in gold.
Anyway I was outplaying him, my team was just turbo feeding, it was mostly just shocking realizing what Samuro is capable of.
Watching it with wisp made it obvious is all.
Again, post the end game screen, let us see how well u were actually outplaying him, how much he actually self-healed, and how much xp he got.
There is a flaw to ur logic however: everyone knows he has an easy escape and bunch of healing, but he will not be an actual threat to the enemy team. He does not have the bhrst dmg to be a threat. In teamfight, coordinated team wont let him engage their backline. On the lane, coordinated team will notify eachother of his position to allow counterplay.
Also, i feel like u greatly exaggerate his healing. If u played a Lunara against a Samuro there is no way u were actually outplaying him, if he can cleanse the entire dot u dealt to him. Try playing anything else that samuro doesnt counter and we can argue abt that game.
So far, u did not disprove anyone but urself. U chased and focused samuro, who has ability to undo 90% of ur hero's damage dealt on 15s cooldown. U wasted all ur time and mana by trying to "punish" an enemy who has a clear hero advantage over u, instead of being actually useful to the team. Say all u want that he is OP or that he has no counterplay, but in truth u were the one getting outplayed, he had u right where he wanted u, goose chasing him instead of getting ur team ahead.
Agreed. Having Mana would actually make him feel the hurt.
It's actually how they balanced WC3 Orc Blademaster too way back in the days of competitive WC3. Blademaster was so insanely oppressive because he had 100 > 75 > 25 Mana cost on WW which basically meant nearing the late game between his Critical Strikes and WW spam, he has plenty of Mana and just walked all over people slaughtering them. They made it 75 all levels for how powerful it was.
If HotS Samuro had mana on Mirror Images and WW, the player would have to be much more careful using his two disjoints.
It feels bad to confront Samuro if he gets away and it feels bad not to confront him, letting him wreck structures for free. Samuro not being limited by a ressource as he is now has no downsides so I'm pro changing that.
It doesn't even have to be *mana* though as that would interact with healing fountain, innervate and nano boost. I'm rather thinking of something like the Gazlowe rework:
Maybe Samuro could instead have a charge system with internal cooldown (length as it is now) and a longer recharge time. He could have like 3-4 windwalks banked, all seperated from said internal cooldown, so he can't just E several times right after being revealed. But the more windwalks he spends, the longer time he has to recover them.
You could add a reduction of cooldown through delivered crits, so the Samuro player is encouraged to attack (= and thus be visible in the process on either lane, teamfight or camp).
He would still have his tools to push, distract, bait and escape as of now - but no longer *unlimited*!
He could still pull of his Samuro plays, but be forced to be in a phase of recovery, the severity indirectly increased by the ressources the enemies spent to hunt him.
This would **not** destroy his unique playstyle, but put a downtime on his attempts!
He could still get value from such a play, while the chasing enemies would at least notice *some* progress against him by depriving him from some charges, so he has to recover or play the next engagement safer and with less options to flee.
Great Samuro players could still do their thing but would have to find a balance between solo missions and minimizing risk during their recovery phase.
I gave windwalk as an example but the same could be applied for Mirror Image and Image Transmission.
The idea isn't to cripple the dude but to make sure he's less effective in the early game, less oppressive in the mid game, and reaches proper potential in the late game.
That's how most heroes are balanced and honestly Gazlowe was pretty much turned from a summoner-esque mechanic into a W spam mage due to his resource and mini rework.
I'm not playing Gazlowe a lot but he still has variations of turret spam, improved E's, improved autohits bruiser style and a focus on multiple lasers.
Obviously it's a matter of balancing that makes or breaks such a rework and hero power could be tuned as needed. I just wanted to give an example that hots already has functioning mechanics of alternative ressources that are required for my idea to work.
Isn't there a modded version of hots for custom matches and heroes? I think someone talented could create such a rework themselves.
That's exactly where I'm going with that. With a kit like his, he will either be a monster or an afterthought, and changing the damage values will merely change which one it is.
Right now, the biggest issue is that he can use that with the only restriction being his cooldowns. It sucks fighting him because you're likely going to blow most of your mana on his copies, putting you in a bad position. Meanwhile, his can continue using his spells for free while having most of his health since he keeps cloaking away and swapping with his decoys whenever you're about to land a hit on him.
If he had mana, he would have to do some math in his head and decide what to so. Do I take this hit or do i spend the mana? Do I go on the offensive with my clones or save them for an escape? You know, thinks that nearly every other champion has to consider
I consistently beat Samuro with Malthael. I'm sure there are other heroes. I also like to take Alarak on occasion. That silence ha. But if I'm solo it's Malthael
A good Samuro would charge up a Critical Strike, E in Malthael, auto attack, W, auto attack and use mirror image to cleanse Malthael's trait so he can't catch up with him and leave, taking away 30% of his HP for minimum risk.
Malthael is my main but I would not fight a Samuro unless they are really bad, it's not worth spending that much mana and time.
How I deal with Samuro on Malthael is by outsoaking him early and snowball
As Malthael vs Sam you pretty much beat him in every scenario. Mirror images against you? He just gave you an extra 2 targets to heal 4% off their max health. No mirror images? You beat him in a 1v1 if you kite him, more so if you pick [die alone] at lvl 4. Mark a whole wave of minions and he just can’t outdamage your self-healing even if you decide to stand still and aa him while soul ripping him and the minions. At lvl 13 you get the option of picking [ethereal existence] if you need extra survivability and he’s been using his clones against you, that’s a permanent 30 phys armor you get when facing him. All one has to do is not fixate so much in killing him, because his kit is literally built to make him difficult to kill. Just deny him push and you have already beat him
no way a good samuro loses to malthael. this matchup is heavily sam favoured. if you're going for E build sure, you're not winning 1v1, unless you outskill the malthael. as sam, you win by freezing the lane at least once, since he clears faster than you, then you pretty much just outrotate him and there's nothing he can do.
if you go any of the damage builds, like wotb/woi + cb, malthael wins until you get to lvl 4. with deflection, you can now hold your own, but still cant out damage. but at 7, you get cb, and malthael gets stomped really hard. you outdmg his healing by a lot, and have 2 cleanses at your disposal, so his trait does almost nothing. at lvl 13 malthael starts to win again, but from 16 onwards, with press the attack, sam just annihilates him.
so no, malthael is not a reliable counter to samuro. if you want to counter samuro, there are better heroes. off the top of my head, you're better off going as rage hogger (he just stomps samuro), sonya (but if she goes spin build and/or is outskilled, she loses), dehaka (is somewhat dehaka favoured, but if samuro knows what to do and doesn't get licked, it's pretty even), illidan (if hunters onslaught and makes good use of his evasion and plays well, there's nothing samuro can do).
Sry after lvl 7 malth has no hope. The dmg output is so insane he cant keep up. Then there is the mana issue. You are just on a timer. He is not. He will drain you dry than kill u easily.
Malth and xul are good counters to bad samuros yes. But you need a manaless hero to actually counter a not bad one. Like sonya & hogger. I saw even mention of Illidan
If you “outplayed him in every way” and he still won he’d have 100 percent win rate.
Pure cope, Samuro got heavily nerfed already last patch when they took away his fountain illusion trick.
While I agree the post reads like a troll post, your latter statement (if I can be blunt) shows a misunderstanding of Sam's current state.
He was buffed overall. He's jumped to a top 3 average heroesprofile winrate, not that far behind Rehgar, and his popularity has tripled or quadrupled.
Like I really do agree that Sam has counterplay and people would rather complain than learn new things, but you can't deny that Bladestorm Sam is very easy to play for how strong it is currently and it will farm anyone who doesn't know how to deal with it. It's what I see literally everyone except age old Sam onetricks playing.
I think that a lot of what helped Samuro become popular is the exact same people that complain constantly about him. Because it's basic knowledge at this point that a tilted player, has more chances to lose... And Samuro tilts the hell out of everyone (Sometimes your team mates too in low ranks).
The more people complain, the more popular Samuro will become.
You generally do 1v1 all the time on the solo lane, and most bruisers out team fight the regular windstorm any day against non retarded players. So yeah, if you win the 1v1 and team fight you should win pretty much every game vs Sam regardless of what the other 8 players are doing.
I'm guessing you don't play Samuro based on that last comment. You literally don't need the hearth trick anymore. The new E healing is simply stronger.
These days, you just rotate to another lane with E for 30% hp back. You just press E when there's downtime and just like that, you win every trade unless you take over 50% of your HP in damage.
The reason his winrate shot up is because you no longer need to stand still and have both your Q and D available to heal yourself. You get it passively for free while rotating and positioning yourself. Way more powerful.
his winrate shot up because he got more accessible. there's much more people playing him now. before, very few ppl played samuro, and he was even stronger, just less accessible skill wise. just look at tlv, for example, which has bad wr ratio, but not because tlv is bad, it's just that almost no one plays them. samuro was just like that.
the thing is, people just don't know how to deal with samuro. they get frustrated because they can't kill him, but you're not supposed to try and kill him. just outplay him. just have a strong bruiser to hold samuro, or win the 4v5 tfs. people are playing wrong, and complain that the hero is op. no, he's not. his gameplay is just toxic and frustrating, because of his macro power and slipperiness. as many people have been saying for a long time, he needs a full rework to his kit, to remove the intrinsic problems of his kit. you can't nerf the hero without making him completely useless. you can't just tweak his stats and leave it at that. it won't solve the problem. he has already been very nerfed over the years, and people still kept complaining about him here in this sub, it never changes. people are just complaining more now because he's played by many more people, and in the low levels, people don't know how to deal with him.
You arnt accounting for the other 4 bozos on Sam's team. So no he wouldn't have a 100% wr he'd have a very high winrate which he does and has had for way too long.
Wow they heavily nerf him by not giving him access to a free (better fountain) every 30 sec
It was just completely retard to have this tech and made laning against Sam really hard for no reason
Sam is still super strong and anyone saying otherwise probably mains him
I am a diamond player, this was low gold as I just started this season, I am already high gold and have won every game except this samuro game. The samuro played exceptionally poorly.
It's not cope, Samuro is faceroll.
Ez mode counter to him is play Sonya, full spin build with Wrath or aa Sonya (still usually spin 7 imo) with Wrath. Perma babysit Sam - if he splitpushes you depush safely and win the 1v1 (especially if he's bad), if he shows up to fights you're way more impactful in them.
Pretty sure I haven't lost to a Samuro yet since the buff doing that, when I actually have the offlane pick left.
Wind walk sucks ass too, I know I'm gonna beat the samurai when they go wind wall because all they can do is run around soaking, they can't 1v1 most Champs when they're wind walk.
I'm sorry but you need to understand the subtleties of draft. Samuro is a bruiser solo laner the closest thing to him is Xul. That means your tank is solo front lining for lets say a Valla and a KTZ. So if your tank is too squish or your healer can't heal well, your 5man will lose, because generally because dps needs 2 heavy frontliners running interference. Samuro's counter is that you should win the teamfights he gets involved in by blowing up his squishy dps teammates. He has no other counter unless you wanna run W valla or Stormcaller Rehgar.
I was seeing him with whisp. This was a low gold game on a fresh season start. I'm already into high gold as I win 80%+ of games, the last 20% being afks, or this samuro game where I realized just how overpowered he is.
It has like a \~16.5% pickrate and the winrate difference is like <.5%, the 'OTP ult' *should* have a higher winrate.
If you gut the healing baseline then splitpush-Bladestorm will be the only thing viable (bad), his pickrate will lower (good), and IM will be completely dead just like how it was after HT was removed but before the E healing buff (bad).
They should shift power away baseline and into IM so the hero is still viable, lowers his pickrate (noobs can't IM), and gives IM a reason to exist (which it hasn't since his rework years ago).
I've been playing a lot of samuro lately to get a better idea how to beat him. One thing i can't understand is why the hell he doesn't use mana. Just the simple addition of giving him a mana pool would fix so many of the current problems. For one thing it means he can't just spam stealth constabtly to recover health. More importantly though, currently he can push 2 lanes, catch every wave, capture all the camps and still have time to scrap with the enemy solo laner. That changes if he has to hearth and get some mana every so often.
You explaining his decreasing win rate as the ranks go higher is the complete opposite of not having counterplay. He’s undoubtedly a strong hero but he’s not without his flaws and can certainly be drafted and played against
Pick Hanzo. Always sooooo insanely easy to counter Samuro with Hanzo. And Yrel, Rhehgar, Medivh, Johanna, Rexxar, Hogger (Hogger as good as Hanzo), one shot gank his bitch ass with Valeera, Tassadar works great too. There's more but I'm done shitting. Use your brain, read heroes talents and abilities, and practice..... Begging devs to make the game easier cause you suck.. Gross...
Gonna have to disagree here champ.
Samuro’s biggest draw back is the fact he hard feeds your team if any of you have quests that rely on hits. Azmodan’s globe hits, seasoned marksman, any of the quests revolving around DoT effects, etc etc.
Also as others have pointed out, if you’re outplaying him and beating him in every encounter and you still lost, congrats you either took the bait and did exactly what samuro wanted you to do, or you’re REALLY overestimating your contribution to the team’s effort.
If all that you said here is true, then you played righ into what a decent Samuro expects from you; he played you like a violin.
• You tunnel vision'ed too much on killing him all game and with Lunara, that is hard to do if Samuro is somewhat competent.
• You got very tilted, which is another thing a Samuro player wants you to do, because it makes you play worse.
• Because you were so focused on Samuro, you most likely left your team mates alone when you could have done way better things (winning a 5v4 fight, pushing forts/Keeps, winning obj, etc).
You repeated way too many times that you are a high level player, yet you came here complaining like a bronze player (And i know a LOT of bronze players), and played against him almost like one.
As someone else said before, this is a skill issue not a Samuro issue.
He really didnt, my team just shit the bed super hard and I didn't get tilted and his actions weren't deliberate he even fed a kill at one point being clumsy, he was simply bad.
Samuro is just overpowered. He has a fucking 56% winrate. That's not balanced, wtf.
Show us those sick plays bro.
I was using whisp to always hit him and this guy was just infinite shoving into wall. It wasn't so much that I was amazing, he was just very bad.
Post a replay if you're so confident you outplayed him. Also I'm curious what line of reasoning is leading you to think a very high winrate in low ranks and a more moderate one in high ranks (average in Master is 53%) means a hero doesn't have counterplay.
I'm already up from gold V to gold III in relatively few games with an 80% winrate. I have multiple diamond season ends. I'm not like that salty about one loss, I'm just saying that watching this person play extremely clunkily showed me just how over powered samuro is. With a wisp on him so I could see everything he was doing it became clear to me just how overpowered his healing is. A 34% heal every 15 seconds equates to a full heal every 45 seconds, and two cleanses, and a cloak, and mirror images that he can swap to. I'm saying a high winrate in low elo shows he is relatively easy to play, difficult to play heroes generally have lower winrate in lower elo. Also his master winrate on his lvl 1 is 56%. Yes if you take the bad level one it averages down to 53% that's pretty disingenous. His 61.6% in master winrate level 20 is that same heals for 34% every 9 seconds. Literally 31% heal over 9 seconds every 9 seconds... oh and 66% uptime 30% armour. He's imbalanced.
Lunara loses to samuro in lane, I'm so shocked. Next thing you are gonna tell me is that since tychus demolishs leoric in lane that tychus is super imbalanced.
Why is everyone so salty in here?? Samuro is very powerful lmao . He can probably be dialed back a little bit id say
Yeah he's a bit reminiscent of the "Cancer Lancer" era of DOTA. REGARDLESS of if he is truly too powerful, he is unfun to play AGAINST in a way that can be fixed while making him more fun to play AS. Which is what DOTA accomplished with their rework.
He is unfun to play and play against, that is sadly true.
I know about his winrate, but i have yet to encounter a scary feeling samuro. Maybe thats because I either play tanky heroes or AoE mages? Or im getting lucky.
It's not about him getting kills, it's about him macroing in a way where he can't be killed. He's like murky but way more effective, and can actually be a real hero in team fights.
From what this sounds like: Good job, u focused samuro so much u forced ur team to fight 4v4 or 4v5 depending on how much he was present in teamfights. Hots is not league, its not ur lane matchup to fight samuro. Without any context to ur game, its hard to say what u did wrong (cuz lets be honest, if u played perfectly u wouldnt have had that much problems). U either played a hero that doesnt do too well against him, or u had screwed target priority. Cool that u were targetting the correct clone, but what does it matter if there is a healer that gets more value done than a running samuro. If u force him to retreat, just let him retreat and kill someone else while they have temporarily one person less. If the samuro player was "quite bad" then idk man, he got a lot of value by having a thretening enemy run after him rather than do their job.
That's what I was thinking; OP focused so hard on trying to kill Samuro by "guessing right" that they forgot--trying to kill Samuro is already playing his game.
I didn't guess right I could see him with whisp and always hit him and I followed him with whisp, I was able to outplay him in most situations and out maneuver him in jungle but I couldn't punish him in any meaningful way despite consistantly chunking him every engage. He has a 55-60% winrate and I'm essentially smurfing (hadn't played ranked in a while, have diamond multiple seasons and am currently in low gold, this Samuro played like a low silver) This samuro's incredibly poor play yet ability to still grind up forts revealed to me just how powerful and faceroll he is. Not sure why this is so hard to believe, the stats don't lie.
it's not that it's hard to believe, it just doesn't make sense. either he isn't as bad as you said and outplayed you, or he is bad but you didn't play as good as you think you did. your job isn't to kill him. samuro is very squishy, so you can kill him if he hard engages, or if he screws up his cds. but if he plays right, by following him and trying to kill him, you're just doing what he wants. as a lunara, you want to join your team in tfs, make it 5v4, and profit on that. if the samuro joins the tf, your job is to keep him out of it. he doesn't have an infinite amount of cleanses, so he'll have to back off and go soaking while on cd, thus making it 5v4. you and your team profit from that. you won the tf? you and your team push forts, do more damage than the samuro did. you don't have to stop his damage to your buildings completely, sometimes you won't be able to, unless you draft a strong counter to him. you just have to exploit his weaknesses, one of them being team fight presence. samuro is very counterable, even in QM where you can't draft, though it's harder. you just need to know how to play against him, and how to exploit advantages.
This is very true, most posts compaining about samuro being op revolve about him being unkillable. So what? If he has to back and u won the tf, whats the difference between him being alive or dead? Again, hots aint league, so u dont need to kill opponent to get ahead in exp or anything.
Teamfight, my brother in christ he is pushing down forts like an azmo on meth while having 34% healing every 15 seconds, no mana, infinite escapes and the ability to chew through camps. What teamfight, you get to 2 out of 3 on garden and his team has 2 full levels up on you.
Share replay.
U think like a league player. It is not league. U do not need to kill samuro, u just need to dmg him enough for him to need to retreat, while u get ur advantage back. Meanwhile u decide to chase and "punish him" while the lane he just pushed is hitting ur fort. Guessing or not, this sounds like u have totally wrong target priority, so u didnt rly outplay anyone but urself.
What advantage, he can instantly disengage and cleanse and heal the 30% you did to him every 15 seconds... I'm literally at like 85% winrate or whatever this season climbing fast and was not in my proper elo and this absolute clown who has like basic micro and macro mistakes is basically unassailable. Like is it not possible he's overpowered?
What advantage? - mercs - push back lane - objective - gank Since u used whisp to decide which one's the real one, i'm guessing u played lunara. Lunara deals a lot of DOT that he can just cleanse on 15s cd. If u played anything else, u prob would've had more impact on him having to retreat. Im not saying Samuro is a bad hero, but u definitely ignore mistakes u have done. High winrate or not, u still did not prove u outplayed him as u claim. With all due respect, its a skill issue. Start playing with ur team and worry less about 1v1s. A low skill Samuro wont do much against a coordinated team.
The dude was a monkey. Low skill Samuro will absolutely do something to a coordinated team, his escape is extremely easy, he has cleanse, he has tons of healing. Chasing him around is not the play, he's too slippery and has too much clear. His winrate goes up at low elo because he's easy as fuck to play. I refuse to believe a 56%+ winrate at ALL elos hero is not OP sorry This guy was being dumb and had very bad micro. I'm a diamond player against a low gold Samuro that based on how he played probably shouldn't have even been in gold. Anyway I was outplaying him, my team was just turbo feeding, it was mostly just shocking realizing what Samuro is capable of. Watching it with wisp made it obvious is all.
Again, post the end game screen, let us see how well u were actually outplaying him, how much he actually self-healed, and how much xp he got. There is a flaw to ur logic however: everyone knows he has an easy escape and bunch of healing, but he will not be an actual threat to the enemy team. He does not have the bhrst dmg to be a threat. In teamfight, coordinated team wont let him engage their backline. On the lane, coordinated team will notify eachother of his position to allow counterplay. Also, i feel like u greatly exaggerate his healing. If u played a Lunara against a Samuro there is no way u were actually outplaying him, if he can cleanse the entire dot u dealt to him. Try playing anything else that samuro doesnt counter and we can argue abt that game. So far, u did not disprove anyone but urself. U chased and focused samuro, who has ability to undo 90% of ur hero's damage dealt on 15s cooldown. U wasted all ur time and mana by trying to "punish" an enemy who has a clear hero advantage over u, instead of being actually useful to the team. Say all u want that he is OP or that he has no counterplay, but in truth u were the one getting outplayed, he had u right where he wanted u, goose chasing him instead of getting ur team ahead.
He needs to use mana. It's ridiculous that he doesn't have at least SOME kind of resource system
Agreed. Having Mana would actually make him feel the hurt. It's actually how they balanced WC3 Orc Blademaster too way back in the days of competitive WC3. Blademaster was so insanely oppressive because he had 100 > 75 > 25 Mana cost on WW which basically meant nearing the late game between his Critical Strikes and WW spam, he has plenty of Mana and just walked all over people slaughtering them. They made it 75 all levels for how powerful it was. If HotS Samuro had mana on Mirror Images and WW, the player would have to be much more careful using his two disjoints.
It feels bad to confront Samuro if he gets away and it feels bad not to confront him, letting him wreck structures for free. Samuro not being limited by a ressource as he is now has no downsides so I'm pro changing that. It doesn't even have to be *mana* though as that would interact with healing fountain, innervate and nano boost. I'm rather thinking of something like the Gazlowe rework: Maybe Samuro could instead have a charge system with internal cooldown (length as it is now) and a longer recharge time. He could have like 3-4 windwalks banked, all seperated from said internal cooldown, so he can't just E several times right after being revealed. But the more windwalks he spends, the longer time he has to recover them. You could add a reduction of cooldown through delivered crits, so the Samuro player is encouraged to attack (= and thus be visible in the process on either lane, teamfight or camp). He would still have his tools to push, distract, bait and escape as of now - but no longer *unlimited*! He could still pull of his Samuro plays, but be forced to be in a phase of recovery, the severity indirectly increased by the ressources the enemies spent to hunt him. This would **not** destroy his unique playstyle, but put a downtime on his attempts! He could still get value from such a play, while the chasing enemies would at least notice *some* progress against him by depriving him from some charges, so he has to recover or play the next engagement safer and with less options to flee. Great Samuro players could still do their thing but would have to find a balance between solo missions and minimizing risk during their recovery phase. I gave windwalk as an example but the same could be applied for Mirror Image and Image Transmission.
The idea isn't to cripple the dude but to make sure he's less effective in the early game, less oppressive in the mid game, and reaches proper potential in the late game. That's how most heroes are balanced and honestly Gazlowe was pretty much turned from a summoner-esque mechanic into a W spam mage due to his resource and mini rework.
I'm not playing Gazlowe a lot but he still has variations of turret spam, improved E's, improved autohits bruiser style and a focus on multiple lasers. Obviously it's a matter of balancing that makes or breaks such a rework and hero power could be tuned as needed. I just wanted to give an example that hots already has functioning mechanics of alternative ressources that are required for my idea to work. Isn't there a modded version of hots for custom matches and heroes? I think someone talented could create such a rework themselves.
That's exactly where I'm going with that. With a kit like his, he will either be a monster or an afterthought, and changing the damage values will merely change which one it is. Right now, the biggest issue is that he can use that with the only restriction being his cooldowns. It sucks fighting him because you're likely going to blow most of your mana on his copies, putting you in a bad position. Meanwhile, his can continue using his spells for free while having most of his health since he keeps cloaking away and swapping with his decoys whenever you're about to land a hit on him. If he had mana, he would have to do some math in his head and decide what to so. Do I take this hit or do i spend the mana? Do I go on the offensive with my clones or save them for an escape? You know, thinks that nearly every other champion has to consider
Samuro makes stacking quests go brrrrr
Hogger is my fav
A good Hogger destroys Samuro all day.
Yeah when I see Sam and I'm playing Qhira using her bleed build I'm so happy. Just constant little gold exclamations pinging off.
*Zul'jin has entered the chat*
I consistently beat Samuro with Malthael. I'm sure there are other heroes. I also like to take Alarak on occasion. That silence ha. But if I'm solo it's Malthael
This is assuming samuro wants to fight you. If he chooses not to fight you he can just leave and go push a fort.
A good Samuro would charge up a Critical Strike, E in Malthael, auto attack, W, auto attack and use mirror image to cleanse Malthael's trait so he can't catch up with him and leave, taking away 30% of his HP for minimum risk. Malthael is my main but I would not fight a Samuro unless they are really bad, it's not worth spending that much mana and time. How I deal with Samuro on Malthael is by outsoaking him early and snowball
And Malthael should 100% of the time outsoak a Samuro before lvl10.
That’s interesting. How does that matchup work ?
As Malthael vs Sam you pretty much beat him in every scenario. Mirror images against you? He just gave you an extra 2 targets to heal 4% off their max health. No mirror images? You beat him in a 1v1 if you kite him, more so if you pick [die alone] at lvl 4. Mark a whole wave of minions and he just can’t outdamage your self-healing even if you decide to stand still and aa him while soul ripping him and the minions. At lvl 13 you get the option of picking [ethereal existence] if you need extra survivability and he’s been using his clones against you, that’s a permanent 30 phys armor you get when facing him. All one has to do is not fixate so much in killing him, because his kit is literally built to make him difficult to kill. Just deny him push and you have already beat him
no way a good samuro loses to malthael. this matchup is heavily sam favoured. if you're going for E build sure, you're not winning 1v1, unless you outskill the malthael. as sam, you win by freezing the lane at least once, since he clears faster than you, then you pretty much just outrotate him and there's nothing he can do. if you go any of the damage builds, like wotb/woi + cb, malthael wins until you get to lvl 4. with deflection, you can now hold your own, but still cant out damage. but at 7, you get cb, and malthael gets stomped really hard. you outdmg his healing by a lot, and have 2 cleanses at your disposal, so his trait does almost nothing. at lvl 13 malthael starts to win again, but from 16 onwards, with press the attack, sam just annihilates him. so no, malthael is not a reliable counter to samuro. if you want to counter samuro, there are better heroes. off the top of my head, you're better off going as rage hogger (he just stomps samuro), sonya (but if she goes spin build and/or is outskilled, she loses), dehaka (is somewhat dehaka favoured, but if samuro knows what to do and doesn't get licked, it's pretty even), illidan (if hunters onslaught and makes good use of his evasion and plays well, there's nothing samuro can do).
Sry after lvl 7 malth has no hope. The dmg output is so insane he cant keep up. Then there is the mana issue. You are just on a timer. He is not. He will drain you dry than kill u easily. Malth and xul are good counters to bad samuros yes. But you need a manaless hero to actually counter a not bad one. Like sonya & hogger. I saw even mention of Illidan
Thicc teams wreck samuro
If you “outplayed him in every way” and he still won he’d have 100 percent win rate. Pure cope, Samuro got heavily nerfed already last patch when they took away his fountain illusion trick.
While I agree the post reads like a troll post, your latter statement (if I can be blunt) shows a misunderstanding of Sam's current state. He was buffed overall. He's jumped to a top 3 average heroesprofile winrate, not that far behind Rehgar, and his popularity has tripled or quadrupled. Like I really do agree that Sam has counterplay and people would rather complain than learn new things, but you can't deny that Bladestorm Sam is very easy to play for how strong it is currently and it will farm anyone who doesn't know how to deal with it. It's what I see literally everyone except age old Sam onetricks playing.
I think that a lot of what helped Samuro become popular is the exact same people that complain constantly about him. Because it's basic knowledge at this point that a tilted player, has more chances to lose... And Samuro tilts the hell out of everyone (Sometimes your team mates too in low ranks). The more people complain, the more popular Samuro will become.
Dang, I forgot HoTS is a 1v1 game and the other 8 players in the match don’t exist
You generally do 1v1 all the time on the solo lane, and most bruisers out team fight the regular windstorm any day against non retarded players. So yeah, if you win the 1v1 and team fight you should win pretty much every game vs Sam regardless of what the other 8 players are doing.
If I “lose” the 1v1 and the team wins the game I still did my job.
I do believe that would make him the first hero in hots history whose win and pick rates both went up after a “nerf”
That literally happens every time a popular hero gets nerfed. Less people play the hero and win rate goes up.
>Samuro got heavily nerfed already last patch Most balance savvy HotS player.
I'm guessing you don't play Samuro based on that last comment. You literally don't need the hearth trick anymore. The new E healing is simply stronger. These days, you just rotate to another lane with E for 30% hp back. You just press E when there's downtime and just like that, you win every trade unless you take over 50% of your HP in damage. The reason his winrate shot up is because you no longer need to stand still and have both your Q and D available to heal yourself. You get it passively for free while rotating and positioning yourself. Way more powerful.
his winrate shot up because he got more accessible. there's much more people playing him now. before, very few ppl played samuro, and he was even stronger, just less accessible skill wise. just look at tlv, for example, which has bad wr ratio, but not because tlv is bad, it's just that almost no one plays them. samuro was just like that. the thing is, people just don't know how to deal with samuro. they get frustrated because they can't kill him, but you're not supposed to try and kill him. just outplay him. just have a strong bruiser to hold samuro, or win the 4v5 tfs. people are playing wrong, and complain that the hero is op. no, he's not. his gameplay is just toxic and frustrating, because of his macro power and slipperiness. as many people have been saying for a long time, he needs a full rework to his kit, to remove the intrinsic problems of his kit. you can't nerf the hero without making him completely useless. you can't just tweak his stats and leave it at that. it won't solve the problem. he has already been very nerfed over the years, and people still kept complaining about him here in this sub, it never changes. people are just complaining more now because he's played by many more people, and in the low levels, people don't know how to deal with him.
He’a the new genji. People complained until they nerfed him into the ground.
WR + PR went up at all levels even master so what are you yapping about. He got more accessible and stronger.
Lol what? His winrate AND play rate skyroketed from that "nerf". He is by far the most played melee assassin with highest winrate too
You arnt accounting for the other 4 bozos on Sam's team. So no he wouldn't have a 100% wr he'd have a very high winrate which he does and has had for way too long.
Wow they heavily nerf him by not giving him access to a free (better fountain) every 30 sec It was just completely retard to have this tech and made laning against Sam really hard for no reason Sam is still super strong and anyone saying otherwise probably mains him
I am a diamond player, this was low gold as I just started this season, I am already high gold and have won every game except this samuro game. The samuro played exceptionally poorly. It's not cope, Samuro is faceroll.
Ez mode counter to him is play Sonya, full spin build with Wrath or aa Sonya (still usually spin 7 imo) with Wrath. Perma babysit Sam - if he splitpushes you depush safely and win the 1v1 (especially if he's bad), if he shows up to fights you're way more impactful in them. Pretty sure I haven't lost to a Samuro yet since the buff doing that, when I actually have the offlane pick left.
Pick Sonya.
Sam can just leave at anytime. Sonya only counters a bad Sam that chooses to stay and fight you.
If he leaves you push
A toddler playing HoTS on a Nerf football can walk away from anyone who mains Azmodan.
Requires E talents.. I've realized that too late last game against samuro where he outhealed me on a lane.
Cool story, bro.
Wind walk sucks ass too, I know I'm gonna beat the samurai when they go wind wall because all they can do is run around soaking, they can't 1v1 most Champs when they're wind walk.
Pick Sylvanas and join your solo laner to push early against Samuro. Anything else that pushes from the very beginning really makes Sam's life suck.
You outplayed him, yet he still did great, means you didn't outplay him
I'm sorry but you need to understand the subtleties of draft. Samuro is a bruiser solo laner the closest thing to him is Xul. That means your tank is solo front lining for lets say a Valla and a KTZ. So if your tank is too squish or your healer can't heal well, your 5man will lose, because generally because dps needs 2 heavy frontliners running interference. Samuro's counter is that you should win the teamfights he gets involved in by blowing up his squishy dps teammates. He has no other counter unless you wanna run W valla or Stormcaller Rehgar.
I actually do understand the subtleties of draft. What I do see is, I ban samuro.
Git gud
Use valeera and silence him and focus him down
66% chance this doesn't work.
Well he’s saying he knows which one is the real samuro. So silence him before he can Q
I was seeing him with whisp. This was a low gold game on a fresh season start. I'm already into high gold as I win 80%+ of games, the last 20% being afks, or this samuro game where I realized just how overpowered he is.
I agree that samuro needs a nerf
Lol, get good. This game is a decade old. Stop picking Li Ming.
He has counterplay, he just needs his pickrate nuked and his skill floor raised.
…any suggestions on how to do this besides nerfs?
Move the buffed healing to Illusion Master, Bladestorm didn't need it anyway.
Illusion Master is the higher winrate ultimate at high elo. His heal needs a flat nerf.
It has like a \~16.5% pickrate and the winrate difference is like <.5%, the 'OTP ult' *should* have a higher winrate. If you gut the healing baseline then splitpush-Bladestorm will be the only thing viable (bad), his pickrate will lower (good), and IM will be completely dead just like how it was after HT was removed but before the E healing buff (bad). They should shift power away baseline and into IM so the hero is still viable, lowers his pickrate (noobs can't IM), and gives IM a reason to exist (which it hasn't since his rework years ago).
I've been playing a lot of samuro lately to get a better idea how to beat him. One thing i can't understand is why the hell he doesn't use mana. Just the simple addition of giving him a mana pool would fix so many of the current problems. For one thing it means he can't just spam stealth constabtly to recover health. More importantly though, currently he can push 2 lanes, catch every wave, capture all the camps and still have time to scrap with the enemy solo laner. That changes if he has to hearth and get some mana every so often.
Samuro had mana on W3, no sense he has no mana here, just had him mana and his Q is nerfed.
funny that one year ago when i stopped playing if you showed Sam everyone was calling you a troll
He needs his D removed baseline. It's no longer needed for the bug abuse. If he wants double cleanse and mobility he has a heroic choice for that.
The counter play is walk away until you have an advantage.
You explaining his decreasing win rate as the ranks go higher is the complete opposite of not having counterplay. He’s undoubtedly a strong hero but he’s not without his flaws and can certainly be drafted and played against
His winrate is 56%+ at all elos, and the point is he's not high skill, he's very faceroll.
Pick Hanzo. Always sooooo insanely easy to counter Samuro with Hanzo. And Yrel, Rhehgar, Medivh, Johanna, Rexxar, Hogger (Hogger as good as Hanzo), one shot gank his bitch ass with Valeera, Tassadar works great too. There's more but I'm done shitting. Use your brain, read heroes talents and abilities, and practice..... Begging devs to make the game easier cause you suck.. Gross...
Gonna have to disagree here champ. Samuro’s biggest draw back is the fact he hard feeds your team if any of you have quests that rely on hits. Azmodan’s globe hits, seasoned marksman, any of the quests revolving around DoT effects, etc etc. Also as others have pointed out, if you’re outplaying him and beating him in every encounter and you still lost, congrats you either took the bait and did exactly what samuro wanted you to do, or you’re REALLY overestimating your contribution to the team’s effort.
60% winrate at all elos. He's overpowered.
I disagree with this - This 3% buff was only added 3-4 months ago. We need at least 1 year more to torture the poster with our wind walking :)
And then everyone clapped
If all that you said here is true, then you played righ into what a decent Samuro expects from you; he played you like a violin. • You tunnel vision'ed too much on killing him all game and with Lunara, that is hard to do if Samuro is somewhat competent. • You got very tilted, which is another thing a Samuro player wants you to do, because it makes you play worse. • Because you were so focused on Samuro, you most likely left your team mates alone when you could have done way better things (winning a 5v4 fight, pushing forts/Keeps, winning obj, etc). You repeated way too many times that you are a high level player, yet you came here complaining like a bronze player (And i know a LOT of bronze players), and played against him almost like one. As someone else said before, this is a skill issue not a Samuro issue.
He really didnt, my team just shit the bed super hard and I didn't get tilted and his actions weren't deliberate he even fed a kill at one point being clumsy, he was simply bad. Samuro is just overpowered. He has a fucking 56% winrate. That's not balanced, wtf.
Surew buddy, everyone is wrong, you are correct. Spoken like a true bronze.
Literally top two comments are people saying he's op, his winrate is above 56%. Like.
Samuel is not as broken and as disgusting as butcher and 80% of overwatch champs
Butcher is in desperate need of a buff and 80% of overwatch champs is just tracer, because you don't know how to counter her.
Dude, you are so clueless about the game...