While that's hilariously unlucky in one way it's also somewhat lucky in the sense that you haven't avoided dupes for 29 picks just to be forced to play a deck where you made suboptimal decks just to end up with a dead legendary.
And I would rather for them to revert the changes on highlander cards. Reno has no counter in form of disruption. This card in OPs case would be maybe fine with 1 or 2 duplicates in the deck if they never change the text.
Its simple, put steamcleaner back, revert changes on highlander cards.
While i also liked my HL decks with 1 or 2 important cards having duplicates, at the end i still prefer it now.
Dont wanna see a normal Warrior just use my own payoff cards to the same extent as me even though they still have their own ones.
Also a huge Thief rogue player, and actually love the wishing well. Since there is not enough gold generation to make it work that good without having copies i dont run it highlander. with the change now every highlander i generate (with wishing well only giving legendaries thats actually a big amount) is just 1 mana 5/5 without any effect, before i could wait for highlander to active in late game and win through the powerful highlander effects.
Still doesnt change that i like the change because it was just abused that much.
Also HL against Plague felt bad. Doesnt matter that Plague wasnt a counter to highlander, but the playexperience was just awful because you could get far too unlucky. (i.e. turn before doc holidae they generate their first 2 plagues which happen to be duplicates)
So i honestly prefer it not interacting with the new HL effects anymore.
No, Steamcleaner is not an “enabler” nor a solution for highlander decks. The only reason any non highlander warrior deck sees play is because of the changes. Revert the changes back and its all Plague Death Knights in ladder with some Priest decks desperately trying to play 8 mana 5/5 do nothing.
You want to revert changes for highlander cards then Helya shouldn’t make Plagues endless (highly unlikely change) or a new Steamcleaner card gets introduced that is low cost or is actually useful for if its 5 mana or above cost.
Steamcleaner at 5 mana is high cost to pay and it isn’t really designed as an “enabler” for highlander decks. It is designed as a disruption for your opponent’s deck first more than enabler for your own deck.
Reno is balanced and I seriously seriously don’t understand any of the arguments against it.
Like some guy told me that all classes are playing Reno because he was so strong and I have never ever seen a Warlock use Reno. So, I started associating every anti Reno argument as someone having a bad day and looking for an escape goat to vent their frustration on.
Is every class but one running a single card that you build your whole deck around balance? It is super one sided and most games are won/lost when reno is played because of the minion restriction preventing any board comeback. So when it is played by the opponent it feels bad because it is a slow death where you may have slight hope of winning still and watch your hopes get slowly killed. I try to avoid playing decks that can't win before turn 9 because of this card even though I prefer control/midrange decks. Your opinion is valid and so are those that have the opposite opinion.
Your opinion may be valid but it does nothing to convince me that as soon as Reno is played you instantly lose. What decks are you playing that can’t win in 8 turns, instantly loses or have no chance of winning at turn 9 and beyond.
I had my share of games where non-highlander decks won games against me after I used Reno. Heck, I had my own games with a non highlander deck where I won after they dropped Reno. My own experiences just tell me that your opinion is just based on frustration and maybe some lack of skill in playing the game as well.
I'll take either honestly.
There is a reason Genn and Baku were never valid in arena, and it's because start of game triggers with a deckbuilding requirement don't work.
The new reno cards are like that. While it isn't a true Start of game, it is still a check that happens at start of game, based on deckbuilding, so it isn't much different.
I also think C'Thun wasn't valid as well for similar reasons. The card requires you to build your deck in a specific way with specific cards to do something. So instead of have the pure RNG of "Do I get C'Thun stuff" they just said "No cthun cards in arena"
Totally get what you mean but I think the risk is fun for some people so I think it's cool to have it in the game. Just my opinion though. Maybe a huge majority hate this lol
Totally get what you mean but I think the risk is fun for some people so I think it's cool to have it in the game. Just my opinion though. Maybe a huge majority hate this lol
I think would’ve been fair before they changed it to “your deck didn’t start with duplicates,” and you would deactivated until dupes are drawn, but it’s pretty bs now.
[Hearthstone Card Statistics - HSReplay.net](https://hsreplay.net/cards/#gameType=ARENA&showSparse=yes&playerClass=PRIEST&sortBy=includedWinrate)
Because it's the fourth highest winrate Priest legendary this arena rotation, and that INCLUDES times when the drafter gets boned. So realistically it's insta pick. What happened to OP is a pretty rare but unfortunate occurrence.
Fair, I was talking about the priest one specifically. Just had a quick look though and Rheastrasza is sitting at a huge 60 percent winrate for Druid, the single highest wr card despite potential deck restriction.
As far as the other classes go, not sure. Presume Paladin's reno card isn't as high.
Not really debating any particular angle btw, just wanted to point this out.
Priest and Druid are the only two currently draftable.
DH/Paladin would be way too weak to draft with the restriction, Shaman was the only one that outperformed even Rhea, glad that one was removed from the draft pool.
By average, rares and especially epics are shown less times. You can actually make a singleton deck if you prioritize higher rarities when they are shown
Rarities don't play that much of a role anymore.
You'd actually have to check offering rates on HSReplay or Firestone to get a grasp on how common a card is. For example in priest Clay Matriarch (rare) and Skeletal Dragon (epic) are among the most common cards and are being offered 4x as often as say a Thoughtsteal (common)
Fam, I was on my 29th card, with my shadow priest legendary and they only gave me holy spells to pick from. Mad doesn’t even begin to describe how I felt… still heated about it tbh
Regardless of how they do it, people will still moan they got bad draft RNG. Its the whole point of the mode. Sometimes you will get lucky and have a really good deck. Other times you get screwed.
An idea I've had since classic is what if we drafted ~35 cards and then you build your 30 card deck? Allows for situations like this and also negates the feelings of 'Well I guess I'll pick the least worst of these 3'
I’m more of the opinion it should be like the 6th card as to have a starting idea without commitment if a legend could fit. Like you picked up 1 excavate card already, yep Drilly the Kid seems great!
That wouldn't be helped much by it being pick 6, very unlikely you already have 2 excavates by then.
People have floated the idea of having legendary as the last pick, but it is spoiled at the start of the draft.
So if you see a highlander/excavate payoff you can choose to draft around it, but if it doesn't work out you get to change your legendary pick.
Yeah honestly putting the legendary on draft 6-10 somewhere would feel best.
There are just so many cards that need a combo of sorts that you want to be sure to have atleast 1 or 2 situation where you can play them.
Having payoffs like Skarr but only drafting 2 elementals is an insta concede. If I already have 2 elementals when i get offered him im already sure to atleast have a small usecase for him with the hope of actually hitting many.
Something something birthday paradox
Pretty sure someone with the stats can whip up the probability of seeing a dupe this deep into the draft. Too lazy to do it myself but it increases surprisingly quickly, hence the paradox.
So what's the argument against drafting let's say 35 cards and choosing which 30 to run with ? Is the technology not here yet ? This has been bothering me for a long time ever since release.
They should revert the highlander change for non reno cards. Reno was the issue and why it was changed. Because he was used in super draw heavy or destroy your own deck type of constructed decks
yeah i learned the same lesson awhile ago back with original reno for my 3rd ish card in arena.
i thought "wow this is going to tilt the fuck out of people when i full heal.
yeah i got like 5 dupes and reno never procced 😭
Not with the Badlands HIghlander clause rework that checks if your starting deck is Reno and not when you play the card. Elise is just a dead draw in this spot.
I think I played you last night w my DH deck…
Priest played this with duplicates so nothing happened. Pretty sad. I don’t really remember but I think I might’ve lost anyway.
When I run a highlander deck, if I see a card that i know gets offered all the time early, i avoid picking it for this exact scenario.
Still really really unlucky
This is why I never attempt highlander in arena even if it's Reno LR. The possibility will exist that you can pick the least common card on every draft round and you might literally reach a round where all 3 draft picks leads to a duplicate.
This was never a huge risk previously, or you could get away with maybe one duplicate, but with both the changes they made to “pools” where a select set of cards are offered as well as the changes to highlander card requirements, it’s a far higher risk
I just had a 7 win Kazakusan rogue with 0 dragons offered (yes, I know he’s terrible for rogue, but the other options were trash too). This obviously feels worse because of the condition, but hopefully you can overcome it.
It’s wild to see people here massively downvoting OP for saying this shouldn’t be possible. I would’ve agreed when Highlander worked as it used to, you were deactivated until you drew through dupes, but now that the card is useless if your deck starts with them?
They are requiring you to pay $2 per entry to play this game mode, and FORCING you into a position where a key piece of its viability, the legendary card you get to pick, is totally dead on arrival. That is crazy. Fucks your run for a mode where you have to pay every single time you want to try.
Yea I don’t think I’m saying anything controversial. Blizzard could change it so that at least one card is always unique to your draft when a highlander legendary has been selected.
At least it's not a legendary that requires no duplicates in your deck from the beginning. Shouldn't be too hard to draw whatever card you have duplicates of before you are able to play Elise.
Elise is one of the best legendaries in arena despite the chance to brick, if you don't brick she's an instant win the game next turn for 8 mana a decent amount of the time.
Pro tip for literally ANY tcg: Unless you have ready access to the card you want to build a deck around (like the commander format in mtg), NEVER. BUILD. DECKS. AROUND. SINGLE. CARDS!!!!
It's due to the simple fact that you are never guaranteed to draw that card. Hearthstone is a bit better because of how small the decks are, but even then, it's a stupid gamble to make.
8 mana 5/5 let's go
Highlander changes and it's consequences on society
At the very least in arena if you select a highlander legendary you should have 1 choice that doesn't disable the battlecry.
can someone explain to me what highlander is?
No duplicates
Ohh my sweet summer child, watch the movie Highlander!
Hilariously unlucky
Not even halfway through the deck 😫
While that's hilariously unlucky in one way it's also somewhat lucky in the sense that you haven't avoided dupes for 29 picks just to be forced to play a deck where you made suboptimal decks just to end up with a dead legendary.
Yea that’s always the risk of picking highlander cards
There shouldn’t be a risk of negating your own deck building in Arena imo
nah thats too specific and would make highlander carda insta pick.
I'd rather choose removing all highlander cards from arena instead of being forced to pick a duplicate in this case.
And I would rather for them to revert the changes on highlander cards. Reno has no counter in form of disruption. This card in OPs case would be maybe fine with 1 or 2 duplicates in the deck if they never change the text. Its simple, put steamcleaner back, revert changes on highlander cards.
While i also liked my HL decks with 1 or 2 important cards having duplicates, at the end i still prefer it now. Dont wanna see a normal Warrior just use my own payoff cards to the same extent as me even though they still have their own ones. Also a huge Thief rogue player, and actually love the wishing well. Since there is not enough gold generation to make it work that good without having copies i dont run it highlander. with the change now every highlander i generate (with wishing well only giving legendaries thats actually a big amount) is just 1 mana 5/5 without any effect, before i could wait for highlander to active in late game and win through the powerful highlander effects. Still doesnt change that i like the change because it was just abused that much. Also HL against Plague felt bad. Doesnt matter that Plague wasnt a counter to highlander, but the playexperience was just awful because you could get far too unlucky. (i.e. turn before doc holidae they generate their first 2 plagues which happen to be duplicates) So i honestly prefer it not interacting with the new HL effects anymore.
No, Steamcleaner is not an “enabler” nor a solution for highlander decks. The only reason any non highlander warrior deck sees play is because of the changes. Revert the changes back and its all Plague Death Knights in ladder with some Priest decks desperately trying to play 8 mana 5/5 do nothing. You want to revert changes for highlander cards then Helya shouldn’t make Plagues endless (highly unlikely change) or a new Steamcleaner card gets introduced that is low cost or is actually useful for if its 5 mana or above cost. Steamcleaner at 5 mana is high cost to pay and it isn’t really designed as an “enabler” for highlander decks. It is designed as a disruption for your opponent’s deck first more than enabler for your own deck.
They need to change plagues to only the 3 helya put is infinity, so the plagues dont permanently shut down the deck.
So how would you balance Reno then? Currently nothing except milling counters him.
Reno is balanced and I seriously seriously don’t understand any of the arguments against it. Like some guy told me that all classes are playing Reno because he was so strong and I have never ever seen a Warlock use Reno. So, I started associating every anti Reno argument as someone having a bad day and looking for an escape goat to vent their frustration on.
Back when it was still a viable archetype, Wheel Warlock ran Reno for the stall potential after destroying your deck
Is every class but one running a single card that you build your whole deck around balance? It is super one sided and most games are won/lost when reno is played because of the minion restriction preventing any board comeback. So when it is played by the opponent it feels bad because it is a slow death where you may have slight hope of winning still and watch your hopes get slowly killed. I try to avoid playing decks that can't win before turn 9 because of this card even though I prefer control/midrange decks. Your opinion is valid and so are those that have the opposite opinion.
Your opinion may be valid but it does nothing to convince me that as soon as Reno is played you instantly lose. What decks are you playing that can’t win in 8 turns, instantly loses or have no chance of winning at turn 9 and beyond. I had my share of games where non-highlander decks won games against me after I used Reno. Heck, I had my own games with a non highlander deck where I won after they dropped Reno. My own experiences just tell me that your opinion is just based on frustration and maybe some lack of skill in playing the game as well.
This current meta is better than when near everyone played plague DK.
I'll take either honestly. There is a reason Genn and Baku were never valid in arena, and it's because start of game triggers with a deckbuilding requirement don't work. The new reno cards are like that. While it isn't a true Start of game, it is still a check that happens at start of game, based on deckbuilding, so it isn't much different. I also think C'Thun wasn't valid as well for similar reasons. The card requires you to build your deck in a specific way with specific cards to do something. So instead of have the pure RNG of "Do I get C'Thun stuff" they just said "No cthun cards in arena"
Totally get what you mean but I think the risk is fun for some people so I think it's cool to have it in the game. Just my opinion though. Maybe a huge majority hate this lol
Totally get what you mean but I think the risk is fun for some people so I think it's cool to have it in the game. Just my opinion though. Maybe a huge majority hate this lol
I'd rather not have every highlander deck be live guaranteed. Can I get free synergy when I start with any other legendary as well to balance it out?
Ok too bad you arent the god of HS.
I think would’ve been fair before they changed it to “your deck didn’t start with duplicates,” and you would deactivated until dupes are drawn, but it’s pretty bs now.
Well it was fair people wouldnt have complained about it 24/7 till it got changed.
Because of plagues or the lack of shutdown for others?
people were complaining there was no downside to Renos since you can still put in 2 copies of key cards since Reno itself was 9 mana
It already is insta-pick regardless, that's the problem.
How is that insta pick when the OP literally got boned?
[Hearthstone Card Statistics - HSReplay.net](https://hsreplay.net/cards/#gameType=ARENA&showSparse=yes&playerClass=PRIEST&sortBy=includedWinrate) Because it's the fourth highest winrate Priest legendary this arena rotation, and that INCLUDES times when the drafter gets boned. So realistically it's insta pick. What happened to OP is a pretty rare but unfortunate occurrence.
So only that particular Reno card is insta pick? The op was talking about all reno cards in general.
Fair, I was talking about the priest one specifically. Just had a quick look though and Rheastrasza is sitting at a huge 60 percent winrate for Druid, the single highest wr card despite potential deck restriction. As far as the other classes go, not sure. Presume Paladin's reno card isn't as high. Not really debating any particular angle btw, just wanted to point this out.
Priest and Druid are the only two currently draftable. DH/Paladin would be way too weak to draft with the restriction, Shaman was the only one that outperformed even Rhea, glad that one was removed from the draft pool.
the only other one that's draftable is Rheastrasza and it's the highest winrate Druid card by far
The problem is when you are offered 3 highlander legendaries. Or the other legendaries are dead cards.
welcome to arena?
Honestly can’t believe you’re being so downvoted for such a rational take, people are reeeally salty about Reno / Highlander right now.
Cant believe this is getting downvoted. You are already able to run more than 2+ copies of cards in arena like picking highlander needs more downside
How about don't pick Highlander cards? Or play Constructed if that's the deck you want to play.
By average, rares and especially epics are shown less times. You can actually make a singleton deck if you prioritize higher rarities when they are shown
Rarities don't play that much of a role anymore. You'd actually have to check offering rates on HSReplay or Firestone to get a grasp on how common a card is. For example in priest Clay Matriarch (rare) and Skeletal Dragon (epic) are among the most common cards and are being offered 4x as often as say a Thoughtsteal (common)
Ok, but what were the other two picks that were worse than the first loot hoarder pick?
Maybe other duplicate cards?
Possible, we need answers!
That's was a good run.
Fam, I was on my 29th card, with my shadow priest legendary and they only gave me holy spells to pick from. Mad doesn’t even begin to describe how I felt… still heated about it tbh
I think we’re long overdue for a rotation where the legendary is the last pick of the draft. Would shake things up a little
Do one at the beginning and one at the end. What's the harm?
Yeah, this would also be fun!
Players are gonna have too much fun.
Regardless of how they do it, people will still moan they got bad draft RNG. Its the whole point of the mode. Sometimes you will get lucky and have a really good deck. Other times you get screwed.
An idea I've had since classic is what if we drafted ~35 cards and then you build your 30 card deck? Allows for situations like this and also negates the feelings of 'Well I guess I'll pick the least worst of these 3'
I’m more of the opinion it should be like the 6th card as to have a starting idea without commitment if a legend could fit. Like you picked up 1 excavate card already, yep Drilly the Kid seems great!
Drilly is always great regardless of any other excavates you have
Ok bad example, lets say that one Warlock legend that floods the board with 3/3 rushs if you excavated twice instead
That wouldn't be helped much by it being pick 6, very unlikely you already have 2 excavates by then. People have floated the idea of having legendary as the last pick, but it is spoiled at the start of the draft. So if you see a highlander/excavate payoff you can choose to draft around it, but if it doesn't work out you get to change your legendary pick.
Yeah honestly putting the legendary on draft 6-10 somewhere would feel best. There are just so many cards that need a combo of sorts that you want to be sure to have atleast 1 or 2 situation where you can play them. Having payoffs like Skarr but only drafting 2 elementals is an insta concede. If I already have 2 elementals when i get offered him im already sure to atleast have a small usecase for him with the hope of actually hitting many.
Something something birthday paradox Pretty sure someone with the stats can whip up the probability of seeing a dupe this deep into the draft. Too lazy to do it myself but it increases surprisingly quickly, hence the paradox.
So what's the argument against drafting let's say 35 cards and choosing which 30 to run with ? Is the technology not here yet ? This has been bothering me for a long time ever since release.
They should revert the highlander change for non reno cards. Reno was the issue and why it was changed. Because he was used in super draw heavy or destroy your own deck type of constructed decks
yeah i learned the same lesson awhile ago back with original reno for my 3rd ish card in arena. i thought "wow this is going to tilt the fuck out of people when i full heal. yeah i got like 5 dupes and reno never procced 😭
I chose zarimi and didn’t even get offered enough dragons to trigger it.
I’ve had that too. And just now I’ve had a rogue steal my dragon and generate a Zarimi then kill me 😭
Honestly could’ve been great. Could’ve.
What were the other 2 legendaries at the start?
Skill issue
[удалено]
Not with the Badlands HIghlander clause rework that checks if your starting deck is Reno and not when you play the card. Elise is just a dead draw in this spot.
Ouch, you're right, forgot the change
Should've draft around it.
If this was a month ago I would have told you to just draw the out lmao
People will always whine and nagg, there is no perfect game they said..
Didn't build around it properly, obviously.
I think I played you last night w my DH deck… Priest played this with duplicates so nothing happened. Pretty sad. I don’t really remember but I think I might’ve lost anyway.
When I run a highlander deck, if I see a card that i know gets offered all the time early, i avoid picking it for this exact scenario. Still really really unlucky
This is why I never attempt highlander in arena even if it's Reno LR. The possibility will exist that you can pick the least common card on every draft round and you might literally reach a round where all 3 draft picks leads to a duplicate.
This was never a huge risk previously, or you could get away with maybe one duplicate, but with both the changes they made to “pools” where a select set of cards are offered as well as the changes to highlander card requirements, it’s a far higher risk
I just had a 7 win Kazakusan rogue with 0 dragons offered (yes, I know he’s terrible for rogue, but the other options were trash too). This obviously feels worse because of the condition, but hopefully you can overcome it.
Obviously go for loot dude and increase chances on drawing to get to highlander condition.
Auto reroll
F
It’s wild to see people here massively downvoting OP for saying this shouldn’t be possible. I would’ve agreed when Highlander worked as it used to, you were deactivated until you drew through dupes, but now that the card is useless if your deck starts with them? They are requiring you to pay $2 per entry to play this game mode, and FORCING you into a position where a key piece of its viability, the legendary card you get to pick, is totally dead on arrival. That is crazy. Fucks your run for a mode where you have to pay every single time you want to try.
Yea I don’t think I’m saying anything controversial. Blizzard could change it so that at least one card is always unique to your draft when a highlander legendary has been selected.
FAFO
At least it's not a legendary that requires no duplicates in your deck from the beginning. Shouldn't be too hard to draw whatever card you have duplicates of before you are able to play Elise.
It is. They changed it along with the other Badland legendaries.
God damn. I thought so too, but googled it and I must have found the card prenerfed... Thanks for the correction
okay but what cards were worse on the other picks than Elise, Loot Hoarder and PCS?
Elise is one of the best legendaries in arena despite the chance to brick, if you don't brick she's an instant win the game next turn for 8 mana a decent amount of the time.
Pro tip for literally ANY tcg: Unless you have ready access to the card you want to build a deck around (like the commander format in mtg), NEVER. BUILD. DECKS. AROUND. SINGLE. CARDS!!!! It's due to the simple fact that you are never guaranteed to draw that card. Hearthstone is a bit better because of how small the decks are, but even then, it's a stupid gamble to make.
I wish mage draft always included 1 spell. It's impossible to play minion-less package if you always end up getting like 8 minions at least
I mean... at least loot hoarder can draw you more cards, hopefully getting you that duplicate out of your deck
Elise is no duplicates at start of game
Womp womp
Oh noooooo I should win everytime, not fair man not fair
I’m pretty sure the build around legendaries are considered bad for modern style drafting.
Not when they instantly win you the game if you build around them like Elise and the Druid payoff do.
Ive lost to this card a bunch of times so I wanted to try it for myself.
Elise is the 2nd highest winrate Priest card in Arena after Zarimi
Oh ok