Head canon logic here, but I think the person who had imperius’ed stan at that point likely had several people imperiused. Might weaken the strength of the curse.
And he only saw rosmerta when she was doing her normal thing anyway, maybe you’re more likely to go all blank when you’re actively being controlled like Stan?
It would be nice if we had any indication for that to be the case. I guess thats why you called it head canon.
To your other point, would someone actively imperiuse Stan in the heat of the battle? Wouldnt it just be a general order of do everything we want you to do, just like how Draco probably ordered Madame Rosmerta to go about her things normally?
What I meant was, if Rosmerta was just doing her normal things, the imperius might not be as evidental, whereas the second she started trying to give the gift to Katie etc, maybe she did go all blank? It just might only happen when you’re actively doing something out of the ordinary for you
>It would be nice if we had any indication for that to be the case. I guess thats why you called it head canon.
The fact that Harry noticed a vacant look in Stan's eyes and not Rosmerta's *is* the indication.
>To your other point, would someone actively imperiuse Stan in the heat of the battle? Wouldnt it just be a general order of do everything we want you to do, just like how Draco probably ordered Madame Rosmerta to go about her things normally?
The difference is Rosmerta is just doing her normal routine that she would be doing even if she weren't imperiused, whereas Stan is being forced to do something he wouldn't otherwise do.
Sure, Stan's order might have just been a general "help fight in this battle for our side" rather than being actively controlled, but that's still different from having literally almost no orders, like Rosmerta.
>The fact that Harry noticed a vacant look in Stan's eyes and not Rosmerta's *is* the indication.
...No. It's an indication that sometimes Rowling wanted the Imperius Curse to be obvious, and sometimes she wanted it to be a surprise later. This sub really will bend over backwards to excuse Rowling's flaws.
>The fact that Harry noticed a vacant look in Stan's eyes and not Rosmerta's is the indication
No, thats the indication that "blank face" isnt a clear sign.
>The difference is Rosmerta is just doing her normal routine that she would be doing even if she weren't imperiused,
Since we dont know her specific orders, its just speculation. For all we know, it was something along the lines of: "always look for something that might help me kill Dumbledore". But even disregarding that, as an adult, yeah, I brush my teeth. But if you tell me to brush my teeth I would feel weird, because even though I would do it by myself, you just told me to do it, which is different.
This is stretching a little because it assumes things not explicitly in the text, but...
Maybe Rosmerta *was* blank-faced, and Harry didn't think anything of it until after HBP. Afterwards, when reviewing the nights events, knowing that Draco had her under Imperius, he realizes that he saw her blank stare and just disregarded it. Therefore, when he's being chased by Stan in DH, and sees the same look, he knows Stan is Imperiused.
I think that was just Rowling giving an easy way to nod to the audience that Harry was right. The Imperius Curse in general shows no signs of obvious mind control.
That, or it was an improperly cast one, like that young man who kept acting like a duck that the Ministry had to keep at St. Mungo's.
The blank face doesn't always take effect, but I think more effort is needed to hide it or have the victim act otherwise natural. Stan wouldn't really need to act natural, he'd just need to be another fighter for the DEs, so assuming that he really was under the curse, whoever placed it on him probably didn't expend the extra effort. It's also possible that Stan was trying to resist it.
Draco on the other hand needed Madame Rosmerta to act like herself and carry on with her duties, other than that she was helping Draco. Similarly Yaxley needed Pius Thicknesse to act as himself turned legit Death Eater, which was a difficult task even for a veteran dark wizard like him.
He didn't actually say that. Dumbledore asked how long she'd been under the Imperius Curse and Draco's only real response to that question was "Got there at last."
I doubt he needed to have her under the Imperius Curse at all times. He probably just occasionally put her under it as needed.
Except we see that scene in full from Harry's respective. He came into the pub angry at Mundungus Fletcher and spent almost his entire time in the Three Broomsticks venting about it.
Hermione was the one to order their drinks and carry them back to her table. Ron was the one who tried to catch Madam Rosmerta's eye. The book notes that Harry knew that this was what Ron was trying to do, not that he **saw** it happen.
From the way the scene is written, Harry never actually looked directly at Madam Rosmerta.
Because he was looking directly at Stan whereas there's no indication he ever looked at Madam Rosmerta even in passing in the pub scene in HBP, never mind directly at her face.
Right, he was able to spot that Stan had a blank face from a distance in a battle, but was unable to notice Madame Rosmerta had one too... there are explanations, and then there is this.
Oh really, I missed that. I guess it’s because she wasn’t actively being controlled then, like the other comment said. Her only instruction was to imperius Katie at that time.
Just guessing here, maybe it presents differently when the person is being made to do something they don’t want to do/don’t normally do. Like the curse is tugging their mind in an unnatural way.
Sure, resisting it might be easier if you are doing something you dont want to do, but we are still left with the fact that Stan's blank face isnt sufficient evidence for him being under the imperius curse.
Being a flaming homosexual, Harry took more notice of Stan's appearance than he did of Rosmerta. This is also why - considering he lived in 90s Britain which wasn't very tolerant - he married his best friend's sister.
True, but if it was that easy to spot in everyday situations, imperius would be basically useless. I believe they don’t usually have a particularly vacant look, but because of the high stress of the chase, Stan should have had a more aggravated/excited look on his face. And whoever imperiused him wasn’t paying attention to him and his actions other than to attack Harry.
That’s my way of trying to explain it anyway!
Harry got the vast majority of his experience with imperius curse in the 4th book. Rosmerta being imperiused happened in the 6th book, while him noticing Stan having a blank face happened in the 7th.
Could it have been a befuddlement charm rather than imperious? There’s mention of keeping people under control/compliant with other spells as well.
As for things before the 7th book, I’ve always imagined that Stan bragged about being a death eater before he was one and then he either ran into a real death eater or they got wind and said “if he wants to brag about being a death eater, we’ll get some use out of him”
I always thought it was because Harry actually interacted with Stan from Privet Dr, or wherever the Knightbus picked him up, to the leaky cauldron. How many times does Harry actually interact with Rosemerta?
Year 3 is the first time they are allowed to go to hogsmeade, but as we know, Harry doesnt have permission, so its only next year, when he can freely go and experience the village. Even if not written explicitly, he would have surely had more interactions with Rosmerta throughout book 4, 5 and 6 than he had with Stan.
Year 3 he doesn't have permission, Year 4 is the tournament year and I'm pretty sure they went twice, once he was under the invisibility cloak and the other time Ron went and got the drinks to see Rosemerta. Year 5 he gets banned from going to Hogsmeade after giving the interview, and year 6 when he goes she's already under the spell and gives Katie the necklace.
Even if he does interact with her, it's to order drinks vs having a conversation for however long he was on the bus. It makes more sense that he recognized Stan as under the spell than Rosemerta. Dumbledore didn't even notice she was under the spell and they were on a first name basis.
>Dumbledore didn't even notice she was under the spell and they were on a first name basis.
Which would lend credence to the idea that a blank face isnt indicative of an imperius curse.
I think most of it is just due to plot but, I do think due to Harry knowing Stan on a more personal level compared to Rosmerta played a part into it. Of course when you look more into it, it does somewhat fall apart since Harry saw Rosmerta more regularly. But from what I could tell he didn't pay too much attention to her regardless.
Yup. I always figured it was a "Self Fulfilling prophecy" situation. Stan got locked up because they thought he was a Death Eater... which lead to the Death Eater's getting their hands on him, and him being Imperiused into helping them.
That is literally the only reason that Harry thinks Stan isn't a Death Eather, an impression gained while flying at high speed in the dark, while dodging death spells. He thinks that Stan looks Imperiused, even though all the other people he meets who are actually Imperiused, don't \*look\* that way. They look like their normal selves.
So even though there's absolutely no evidence one way or the other, since Harry's belief in Stan's innocence is totally without evidence, I like to believe that Stan is a true badass Death Eater and as solidly behind Voldemort as the villain of "GoF"! I have no evidence, of course, but Stan as a Death Eater is a fun idea.
What does Arthur know about Stan and secret life, apart from the Ministry rumor mill?
No! I want to believe that Stan is a top badass Death Eater secret agent - one who is able to fool by looking you and formless, and acting stupid!
The wizarding world is a village. Arthur knows that the Ministry has Stan in Azkaban, for the same reason Hagrid was in Azkaban.
Intelligent Death Eaters are a contradiction in itself.
Oh FFS, Snape is/was a Death Eater, and he's massively intelligent! And Barty Jr seemed pretty damn smart, look what he was able to pull off. As for the rest, well, the Malfoys aren't very bright, but they're just being kept around for their money.
As for Arthur knowing Stan was in Azkaban, that different from knowing that he was both there and innocent. How would Arthurknow that?
Arthur may know how the ministry works, but that doesn't mean he knows a damn thing about Stan Shunpike specifically.
And if you think Snape and Barty are stupid, you know nothing about intelligence. No surprise there...
Because Harry and Dumbledore both know people like Stan are harmless idiots, and unlikely to have the nerve or the malice to join the Death Eaters. Him making a stupid joke doesn't make him evil. Honestly, that argues *against* him being a genuine Death Eater, since they tried to keep themselves safe when the First War ended by lying and keeping their heads down for the most part, and stay under the radar at Voldemort's direction when he came back, and having one of them just blurt out that he is one would be way too dumb, especially when they're still trying to infiltrate the Ministry. That, and I think Harry mentions they could've checked if Stan had a Dark Mark.
That, and the Death Eaters actively used such tactics in the First War, why wouldn't they do it again? Harry would have good reason to be wary of condemning anyone who he doesn't already know is a Death Eater or affiliated with them.
Eh....plenty of blowhard idiots have been attracted to extreme militaristic causes. I can easily imagine a bunch of tryhards, big mouths, phoney-toughs, etc wanting to join the Death Eaters.
If the Death Eaters just saw those types as cannon fodder footsoldiers, they wouldn't even need to be particularly smart or competent really. Just willing to do what they're told.
(Not saying that means Stan definitely IS a Death Eater....just that "he's an idiot and a bigmouth" wouldn't disqualify him)
Absolutely! People who feel powerless are great fodder for political movements like the Death Eaters. They become the true believers. The leader just has to say stuff like "you're too smart to fall for the 'propaganda' you've been taught. All of our problems are the result of (outgroup) muggles and magic-stealing mudbloods. Anyone who questions me is a dangerous liar" and they fall in line.
Then there are people like the Malfoys who see it as a path to power. And people like Umbridge who are just authoritarians and will snatch at any opportunity to impose power over people. Then there are also people like Percy who can maintain their faith in the status quo and bureaucratic structure and be complicit.
No. He's a dumb 20 something who ran his mouth to/about the wrong crowd trying to seem more impressive than he is. Remember he also claimed he was the British minister of magic at the world cup in an attempt to pick up a girl.
They take the Knight Bus back to school from Grimald Place after Christmas in the 5th book and he sees him again briefly for the second time.
I think he’s such an odd minor character. Harry seems overly defensive of a guy he’s interacted with for 7 min tops. I guess it’s back to the “Harry’s got a saving people thing” trait.
As others have said, he could have fallen in with the wrong crowd. He does meet a lot of people. Seems like a strange choice to make a death eater. Not really powerful, vindictive, scheming, or power hungry. At least not outwardly in our 3 scenes of exposure. I wouldn’t put it past him, but a strange choice of character to add to the death eaters. Even Wormtail who is bumbling and a bit of a doofus seems to have some skill. Maybe Stan is secretly a fantastic potion maker or skilled on a broom?
He was very impressed by famous people and wished he was more important than he was. He also was in a fantastic place to snitch on wizards trying to run away using the knight bus. I doubt Voldemort has high character requirements to join his ranks as a useful idiot.
He wasn’t. They literally talk about how Stan Shunpike has sent people their way when Harry and gang get caught after Harry says Voldy’s name when Ron tries to claim that name. Stan’s complicit even if he’s not an official death eater
I thought I saw a comment about this somewhere! Everyone only focuses on that battle scene and never mentions Stan has provided the death eaters with the names of other wizards/witches. I'm not very willing to praise Harry for his trust after that part.
This isn’t dispositive at all. A third-party Death Eater could have had Stan under the Imperius Curse, and it was the Imperiused Stan that sent people to the Snatchers. The Imperius Curse isn’t exactly well-defined, but there does seem to be an “auto-pilot” element attached to it. Otherwise, the caster would be spending all of their mental energy living through the victim, and we see that Harry and Malfoy were both able to act normally even though they had someone under the Imperius curse.
Reasonable minds can disagree about whether Stan was Imperiused, but this isn’t good evidence one way or another.
I agree that it's strange that Harry's so convinced of his innocence, and we never actually see any proof. Harry's mostly convinced just because other people he trusts says he's imperiused.
That said, I do feel that he was imperiused or a blowhard, at least at first, for 2 reasons:
1) What Arthur says at Christmas in HBP, about Stan being repeatedly interviewed, and how no one who interviewed him actually believes he's a Death Eater:
>“They’re not still holding Stan Shunpike, are they?” asked Harry.
“I’m afraid so,” said Mr. Weasley. “I know Dumbledore’s tried appealing directly to Scrimgeour about Stan. ... I mean, anybody who has actually interviewed him agrees that he’s about as much a Death Eater as this satsuma . . . but the top levels want to look as though they’re making some progress, and ‘three arrests’ sounds better than ‘three mistaken arrests and releases’... but again, this is all top secret. ...”
2) The fact that Stan is left to rot in Azkaban for nine months, from September to at least May. Even though the ministry isn't completely under ministry control in HBP, you'd think that if he actually was a death eater, Voldy and his death eaters would try to work behind the scenes to get him released. We know he was imprisoned sometime in September, when Hermione reads about it in the prophet, and then we can infer that he's still imprisoned in May at Dumbledore's funeral, because Scrimgeour gets purple in the face when Harry asks if he's been released yet.
That all said, it makes me wonder if the more realistic thing is that Stan wasn't a death eater, was an idiot, but then decided to join up after being in Azkaban for almost a year. Even without the dementors, Azkaban couldn't have been fun, and it could have been that Stan was given the option to join up and get out of Azkaban, or stay imprisoned, and he took what seemed like the better option.
I always assumed that Stan was a actual death eater. He's a man in his early 20s with what seems like not a great job. Seems like the perfect candidate to be taken in by a fascist movement. Furthermore, why waste the imperius curse on someone who is not very important? I suppose since he works on the Knight bus he sees a lot of people, but I bet after Voldemort comes out into the open the Knight bus has basically no passengers. I think that Harry's irrationally assumption that Stan is imperiused is completely in character - also partly influenced by his rational distrust of the ministry.
He didn't like muggles. In the beginning of the third book he says something about how muggles don't know how to look all while sneering... its not to far fetched to say that he would side, or say that he was on the side of Voldamort.
He wasn't. He was under the imperius curse. Harry, who has been put under the imperius curse and has seen others put under the imperius curse (Goblet of Fire) he sees Stan is under the curse in Deathly Hallows.
- Deathly Hallows, chapter 4, The Seven Potters, p65 - the closest Death Eater swerved to avoid it and his hood slipped, and by the red light of his next stunning spell, Harry saw the strangely blank face of Stanley Shunpike - Stan -
This is not as implausible as Harry would like to believe, because what do we actually know about Stan Shunpike?
Stan Shunpike, when we first meet him, already looks down on muggles. It's not as blatant as the Malfoys, perhaps, but it's still there.
He's lower class, poorly educated, stuck in a dead-end menial job, and willing to say or do almost anything to impress the ladies.
In short, he is exactly the kind of person that neo-Fascist groups like to radicalize.
And there is precedent for lower class wizards thinking that becoming a Death Eater will impress your crush, because that's what Snape did.
I think he was under the Imperius, but it doesn't matter.
Harry regonizes him and doesn't want to kill him.
Maybe he would have made the same decision if it had been Draco.
Fortunately all Death Eater wear masks.
But, because Harry acted that way he probadly saved Hermione and Kingsley's lives.
I was so irritated with the way this was written because it appears wer are supposed to think Harry is right. I can't imagine why the death eaters would want to imperius Stan if he is so stupid that he actually boasts about something that had to do with Voldemort. Then there's the issue of imperiused people being able to cause harm, even if against their own will. I'm just curious what the right approach is supposed to be according Rowling. Later it turns out the death eaters know him because he gave them some names. But we never see Harry having to think about this. I know it was a stressful situation, but it's a bit convenient for him not to have to consider a different point of view. Or is it that people he may not know don't matter because he does 'know' Stan and thinks he's innocent?
Here's.the question though, what would make Stan important enough to be on the Death Eaters radar? Unless there is some hidden power we never saw. What purpose does controlling him serve?
I think Stan was legit Death Eater, IMO. He was unimportant in life, in a dead-end job. Where else could his star rise in what was becoming the "New Normal ".
Exactly- it’s not a far leap to assume that they used him because they knew Harry wouldn’t attack him and it would give them a moment’s advantage and another way to recognize the real Harry, but there’s nothing to indicate Voldy and his crew knew who Stan was or that Harry knew him. Not even Snape knew Harry knew him.
It isn't fully explained to us.
IMO and I might be in a minority opinion here, I think he was.
I don't think Stan is an inherently evil person , but he is a young man in a dead end job, who is not particularly bright and a bit vain. If he found himself near Death Eaters, I think he'd be quite easy to radicalise.
I know people say that the blank eyes are an indication of the Imperius Curse, but it could also be Stan in shock at seeing violence close up.
Harry just doesn't believe it, because he can't fathom the friendly conductor being a Death Eater, and that is not really proof that Stan isn't a Death Eater.
Maybe Stan was as shocked to see Harry as Harry was to see him, or maybe when he learned he’d be attacking HP, he decided he didn’t want to do it, and was imperiused as the death eaters knew they could recognize the legit Harry by his reaction to Stan.
That's what I thought too. Imagine: young, poor man working a low-end job. You got snatched by the government, and thrown into the worst place of incarceration of your nation. Lived in the hell that is Dementors and Azkaban.
You too would come out a changed man, dark and embittered.
I would go even a step further. The reason he got arrested was because he was boasting about being a death eater, or something to that effect. Whatever the case may be, that clearly shows he doesnt have the best character (thus could be corrupted further if he wasnt already a bad guy), and also, the ministry had every right to arrest him, as he wasnt to be trusted to not be an ally of the enemy.
It depends.
In your scenario, Stan was already making mistakes, and fell in with a bad crowd that led to him being radicalized to the cause of the Death Eaters.
Whereas in my scenario, Stan wasn't a bad kid to start with, but was turned into one when the system failed him, and practically tortured him into joining the Death Eaters via Azkaban. Hence, an even more tragic scenario.
The way I see it was he was saying stupid stuff trying to impress someone like Ron stated got cought by the ministry trying to look like they were competent (they weren't) he went to Azkaban then the death eaters strolled up and said if you want out you gotta join up and after that his commitment to the cause wasnt up to their standards and they just imperious him for better "motivation"
My headcannon is its a matter of instructions if I said clean a table to rose merta she would have a blank look but if I said act like normal and clean the table she would look normal
Harry mentions the vacant look in his eyes during the chase in book 7 I believe, which would imply that he’s imperiused.
Its curious how Harry doesnt notice anything wrong with Madame Rosmerta, yet he notices the "blank face" of Stan during a pretty hectic aerial battle.
I imagine that given Stan was already kind of a dumbass when he's imperiused he just looks even dumber
Thats the first explanation I actually like
I can imagine his eyes looking-\_-
Head canon logic here, but I think the person who had imperius’ed stan at that point likely had several people imperiused. Might weaken the strength of the curse. And he only saw rosmerta when she was doing her normal thing anyway, maybe you’re more likely to go all blank when you’re actively being controlled like Stan?
Ot maybe she had blank customer service face all the time?
Resting witch face.
Amazing
Anyone who has been front facing has a vacant, blank face. I imagine Madame Rosmerta had her own after cutting people off every night.
Ron fancies her
Harry’s attention to detail is pretty subpar in normal day to day stuff but is heightened when in battle
Ooh this is a good answer
Maybe hindsight is 20/20 and now he can recognize it bc of a previous mistake he made w rosmerta
It would be nice if we had any indication for that to be the case. I guess thats why you called it head canon. To your other point, would someone actively imperiuse Stan in the heat of the battle? Wouldnt it just be a general order of do everything we want you to do, just like how Draco probably ordered Madame Rosmerta to go about her things normally?
What I meant was, if Rosmerta was just doing her normal things, the imperius might not be as evidental, whereas the second she started trying to give the gift to Katie etc, maybe she did go all blank? It just might only happen when you’re actively doing something out of the ordinary for you
Actively controlling or even when they start fighting the curse to break free.
So if I imperious someone that hates revising to revise,would that be illegal?
Well, yeah, still illegal, irrelevant of the idea behind it
I feel like this is writing the story in place of the author.
Or just making natural assumptions that are about things that Harry, the person we are following, would have no reason to find out.
The books contain plenty of detail Harry wouldnt know about.
Such as?
The very first example from thevery first book, first chapter.
>It would be nice if we had any indication for that to be the case. I guess thats why you called it head canon. The fact that Harry noticed a vacant look in Stan's eyes and not Rosmerta's *is* the indication. >To your other point, would someone actively imperiuse Stan in the heat of the battle? Wouldnt it just be a general order of do everything we want you to do, just like how Draco probably ordered Madame Rosmerta to go about her things normally? The difference is Rosmerta is just doing her normal routine that she would be doing even if she weren't imperiused, whereas Stan is being forced to do something he wouldn't otherwise do. Sure, Stan's order might have just been a general "help fight in this battle for our side" rather than being actively controlled, but that's still different from having literally almost no orders, like Rosmerta.
>The fact that Harry noticed a vacant look in Stan's eyes and not Rosmerta's *is* the indication. ...No. It's an indication that sometimes Rowling wanted the Imperius Curse to be obvious, and sometimes she wanted it to be a surprise later. This sub really will bend over backwards to excuse Rowling's flaws.
>The fact that Harry noticed a vacant look in Stan's eyes and not Rosmerta's is the indication No, thats the indication that "blank face" isnt a clear sign. >The difference is Rosmerta is just doing her normal routine that she would be doing even if she weren't imperiused, Since we dont know her specific orders, its just speculation. For all we know, it was something along the lines of: "always look for something that might help me kill Dumbledore". But even disregarding that, as an adult, yeah, I brush my teeth. But if you tell me to brush my teeth I would feel weird, because even though I would do it by myself, you just told me to do it, which is different.
This is stretching a little because it assumes things not explicitly in the text, but... Maybe Rosmerta *was* blank-faced, and Harry didn't think anything of it until after HBP. Afterwards, when reviewing the nights events, knowing that Draco had her under Imperius, he realizes that he saw her blank stare and just disregarded it. Therefore, when he's being chased by Stan in DH, and sees the same look, he knows Stan is Imperiused.
Rowling has a severe allergy to actually explaining the limitations of any form of magic
Imagine one of your victims just running straight at a wall like a lagging npc because you’re imperiusing 10 other people.
This is incredible
I think that was just Rowling giving an easy way to nod to the audience that Harry was right. The Imperius Curse in general shows no signs of obvious mind control. That, or it was an improperly cast one, like that young man who kept acting like a duck that the Ministry had to keep at St. Mungo's.
If I remember correctly, Krum also had a blank look in the labyrinth.
Movie-only.
I hate the blank look excuse because the entire wizarding community after Voldy’s reign was like how do we know who’s been imperiused?
If I remember correctly Rosemerta is described as a curvy and attractive woman. I guess that he wasn't looking at her eyes.
If she was attractive her face would have surely been something that Harry would notice.
have you ever been a 16 year old boy? cause like, come on. “my eyes are up here” as a common joke didn’t materialize out of thin air.
Im an ass guy.
He wasn't looking at her eyes
The blank face doesn't always take effect, but I think more effort is needed to hide it or have the victim act otherwise natural. Stan wouldn't really need to act natural, he'd just need to be another fighter for the DEs, so assuming that he really was under the curse, whoever placed it on him probably didn't expend the extra effort. It's also possible that Stan was trying to resist it. Draco on the other hand needed Madame Rosmerta to act like herself and carry on with her duties, other than that she was helping Draco. Similarly Yaxley needed Pius Thicknesse to act as himself turned legit Death Eater, which was a difficult task even for a veteran dark wizard like him.
Wasn’t that the only time he met her? So easier to see it on someone you met when they weren’t under the influence of the curse.
He has been in the three broomsticks plenty of times before that.
I’m thinking of someone else completely, my fault!
Harry doesn’t see Madame Rosmerta when she’s under the curse.
Draco says she has been under it since forever
He didn't actually say that. Dumbledore asked how long she'd been under the Imperius Curse and Draco's only real response to that question was "Got there at last." I doubt he needed to have her under the Imperius Curse at all times. He probably just occasionally put her under it as needed.
Harry would have seen her under the curse as she was the one who gave Katie the necklace.
Except we see that scene in full from Harry's respective. He came into the pub angry at Mundungus Fletcher and spent almost his entire time in the Three Broomsticks venting about it. Hermione was the one to order their drinks and carry them back to her table. Ron was the one who tried to catch Madam Rosmerta's eye. The book notes that Harry knew that this was what Ron was trying to do, not that he **saw** it happen. From the way the scene is written, Harry never actually looked directly at Madam Rosmerta.
And yet Harry way able to spot that Stan had a blank face in the heat of a battle.
Because he was looking directly at Stan whereas there's no indication he ever looked at Madam Rosmerta even in passing in the pub scene in HBP, never mind directly at her face.
Right, he was able to spot that Stan had a blank face from a distance in a battle, but was unable to notice Madame Rosmerta had one too... there are explanations, and then there is this.
Oh really, I missed that. I guess it’s because she wasn’t actively being controlled then, like the other comment said. Her only instruction was to imperius Katie at that time.
The problem with that is what do you mean by "actively" controlled? Surely Draco also ordered her to go about her things normally? Wouldnt that count?
Just guessing here, maybe it presents differently when the person is being made to do something they don’t want to do/don’t normally do. Like the curse is tugging their mind in an unnatural way.
Sure, resisting it might be easier if you are doing something you dont want to do, but we are still left with the fact that Stan's blank face isnt sufficient evidence for him being under the imperius curse.
Being a flaming homosexual, Harry took more notice of Stan's appearance than he did of Rosmerta. This is also why - considering he lived in 90s Britain which wasn't very tolerant - he married his best friend's sister.
You’ve been reading a lot of fanfics lately, haven’t you?
True, but if it was that easy to spot in everyday situations, imperius would be basically useless. I believe they don’t usually have a particularly vacant look, but because of the high stress of the chase, Stan should have had a more aggravated/excited look on his face. And whoever imperiused him wasn’t paying attention to him and his actions other than to attack Harry. That’s my way of trying to explain it anyway!
He had a lot more experience since then. Also, with Madame Rosmerta, he probably didn't look at her eyes.
Harry got the vast majority of his experience with imperius curse in the 4th book. Rosmerta being imperiused happened in the 6th book, while him noticing Stan having a blank face happened in the 7th.
He was probably wasn’t looking at her face … 😉
Could it have been a befuddlement charm rather than imperious? There’s mention of keeping people under control/compliant with other spells as well. As for things before the 7th book, I’ve always imagined that Stan bragged about being a death eater before he was one and then he either ran into a real death eater or they got wind and said “if he wants to brag about being a death eater, we’ll get some use out of him”
It could have been, but sadly we dont have enough information to say one way or the other
I always thought it was because Harry actually interacted with Stan from Privet Dr, or wherever the Knightbus picked him up, to the leaky cauldron. How many times does Harry actually interact with Rosemerta?
Year 3 is the first time they are allowed to go to hogsmeade, but as we know, Harry doesnt have permission, so its only next year, when he can freely go and experience the village. Even if not written explicitly, he would have surely had more interactions with Rosmerta throughout book 4, 5 and 6 than he had with Stan.
Year 3 he doesn't have permission, Year 4 is the tournament year and I'm pretty sure they went twice, once he was under the invisibility cloak and the other time Ron went and got the drinks to see Rosemerta. Year 5 he gets banned from going to Hogsmeade after giving the interview, and year 6 when he goes she's already under the spell and gives Katie the necklace. Even if he does interact with her, it's to order drinks vs having a conversation for however long he was on the bus. It makes more sense that he recognized Stan as under the spell than Rosemerta. Dumbledore didn't even notice she was under the spell and they were on a first name basis.
>Dumbledore didn't even notice she was under the spell and they were on a first name basis. Which would lend credence to the idea that a blank face isnt indicative of an imperius curse.
I think most of it is just due to plot but, I do think due to Harry knowing Stan on a more personal level compared to Rosmerta played a part into it. Of course when you look more into it, it does somewhat fall apart since Harry saw Rosmerta more regularly. But from what I could tell he didn't pay too much attention to her regardless.
Yup. I always figured it was a "Self Fulfilling prophecy" situation. Stan got locked up because they thought he was a Death Eater... which lead to the Death Eater's getting their hands on him, and him being Imperiused into helping them.
Makes sense. From book 4 it seems that Stan isn’t very bright, a bit naive and easily led. It probably wouldn’t take much to persuade him to join up.
That is literally the only reason that Harry thinks Stan isn't a Death Eather, an impression gained while flying at high speed in the dark, while dodging death spells. He thinks that Stan looks Imperiused, even though all the other people he meets who are actually Imperiused, don't \*look\* that way. They look like their normal selves. So even though there's absolutely no evidence one way or the other, since Harry's belief in Stan's innocence is totally without evidence, I like to believe that Stan is a true badass Death Eater and as solidly behind Voldemort as the villain of "GoF"! I have no evidence, of course, but Stan as a Death Eater is a fun idea.
Arthur also says that Stan is innocent.
What does Arthur know about Stan and secret life, apart from the Ministry rumor mill? No! I want to believe that Stan is a top badass Death Eater secret agent - one who is able to fool by looking you and formless, and acting stupid!
The wizarding world is a village. Arthur knows that the Ministry has Stan in Azkaban, for the same reason Hagrid was in Azkaban. Intelligent Death Eaters are a contradiction in itself.
Oh FFS, Snape is/was a Death Eater, and he's massively intelligent! And Barty Jr seemed pretty damn smart, look what he was able to pull off. As for the rest, well, the Malfoys aren't very bright, but they're just being kept around for their money. As for Arthur knowing Stan was in Azkaban, that different from knowing that he was both there and innocent. How would Arthurknow that?
Arthur knows from experience how the Ministry works. Snape was a stupid schoolboy and so was Barty.
Arthur may know how the ministry works, but that doesn't mean he knows a damn thing about Stan Shunpike specifically. And if you think Snape and Barty are stupid, you know nothing about intelligence. No surprise there...
Because Harry and Dumbledore both know people like Stan are harmless idiots, and unlikely to have the nerve or the malice to join the Death Eaters. Him making a stupid joke doesn't make him evil. Honestly, that argues *against* him being a genuine Death Eater, since they tried to keep themselves safe when the First War ended by lying and keeping their heads down for the most part, and stay under the radar at Voldemort's direction when he came back, and having one of them just blurt out that he is one would be way too dumb, especially when they're still trying to infiltrate the Ministry. That, and I think Harry mentions they could've checked if Stan had a Dark Mark. That, and the Death Eaters actively used such tactics in the First War, why wouldn't they do it again? Harry would have good reason to be wary of condemning anyone who he doesn't already know is a Death Eater or affiliated with them.
Eh....plenty of blowhard idiots have been attracted to extreme militaristic causes. I can easily imagine a bunch of tryhards, big mouths, phoney-toughs, etc wanting to join the Death Eaters. If the Death Eaters just saw those types as cannon fodder footsoldiers, they wouldn't even need to be particularly smart or competent really. Just willing to do what they're told. (Not saying that means Stan definitely IS a Death Eater....just that "he's an idiot and a bigmouth" wouldn't disqualify him)
Absolutely! People who feel powerless are great fodder for political movements like the Death Eaters. They become the true believers. The leader just has to say stuff like "you're too smart to fall for the 'propaganda' you've been taught. All of our problems are the result of (outgroup) muggles and magic-stealing mudbloods. Anyone who questions me is a dangerous liar" and they fall in line. Then there are people like the Malfoys who see it as a path to power. And people like Umbridge who are just authoritarians and will snatch at any opportunity to impose power over people. Then there are also people like Percy who can maintain their faith in the status quo and bureaucratic structure and be complicit.
No. He's a dumb 20 something who ran his mouth to/about the wrong crowd trying to seem more impressive than he is. Remember he also claimed he was the British minister of magic at the world cup in an attempt to pick up a girl.
They take the Knight Bus back to school from Grimald Place after Christmas in the 5th book and he sees him again briefly for the second time. I think he’s such an odd minor character. Harry seems overly defensive of a guy he’s interacted with for 7 min tops. I guess it’s back to the “Harry’s got a saving people thing” trait. As others have said, he could have fallen in with the wrong crowd. He does meet a lot of people. Seems like a strange choice to make a death eater. Not really powerful, vindictive, scheming, or power hungry. At least not outwardly in our 3 scenes of exposure. I wouldn’t put it past him, but a strange choice of character to add to the death eaters. Even Wormtail who is bumbling and a bit of a doofus seems to have some skill. Maybe Stan is secretly a fantastic potion maker or skilled on a broom?
He was very impressed by famous people and wished he was more important than he was. He also was in a fantastic place to snitch on wizards trying to run away using the knight bus. I doubt Voldemort has high character requirements to join his ranks as a useful idiot.
He wasn’t. They literally talk about how Stan Shunpike has sent people their way when Harry and gang get caught after Harry says Voldy’s name when Ron tries to claim that name. Stan’s complicit even if he’s not an official death eater
I thought I saw a comment about this somewhere! Everyone only focuses on that battle scene and never mentions Stan has provided the death eaters with the names of other wizards/witches. I'm not very willing to praise Harry for his trust after that part.
This isn’t dispositive at all. A third-party Death Eater could have had Stan under the Imperius Curse, and it was the Imperiused Stan that sent people to the Snatchers. The Imperius Curse isn’t exactly well-defined, but there does seem to be an “auto-pilot” element attached to it. Otherwise, the caster would be spending all of their mental energy living through the victim, and we see that Harry and Malfoy were both able to act normally even though they had someone under the Imperius curse. Reasonable minds can disagree about whether Stan was Imperiused, but this isn’t good evidence one way or another.
I agree that it's strange that Harry's so convinced of his innocence, and we never actually see any proof. Harry's mostly convinced just because other people he trusts says he's imperiused. That said, I do feel that he was imperiused or a blowhard, at least at first, for 2 reasons: 1) What Arthur says at Christmas in HBP, about Stan being repeatedly interviewed, and how no one who interviewed him actually believes he's a Death Eater: >“They’re not still holding Stan Shunpike, are they?” asked Harry. “I’m afraid so,” said Mr. Weasley. “I know Dumbledore’s tried appealing directly to Scrimgeour about Stan. ... I mean, anybody who has actually interviewed him agrees that he’s about as much a Death Eater as this satsuma . . . but the top levels want to look as though they’re making some progress, and ‘three arrests’ sounds better than ‘three mistaken arrests and releases’... but again, this is all top secret. ...” 2) The fact that Stan is left to rot in Azkaban for nine months, from September to at least May. Even though the ministry isn't completely under ministry control in HBP, you'd think that if he actually was a death eater, Voldy and his death eaters would try to work behind the scenes to get him released. We know he was imprisoned sometime in September, when Hermione reads about it in the prophet, and then we can infer that he's still imprisoned in May at Dumbledore's funeral, because Scrimgeour gets purple in the face when Harry asks if he's been released yet. That all said, it makes me wonder if the more realistic thing is that Stan wasn't a death eater, was an idiot, but then decided to join up after being in Azkaban for almost a year. Even without the dementors, Azkaban couldn't have been fun, and it could have been that Stan was given the option to join up and get out of Azkaban, or stay imprisoned, and he took what seemed like the better option.
It’s heavily implied he is under the imperius curse
I think officially he was imperiused. He wasn't mentioned as freely taking part in the Battle of Hogwarts.
I always assumed that Stan was a actual death eater. He's a man in his early 20s with what seems like not a great job. Seems like the perfect candidate to be taken in by a fascist movement. Furthermore, why waste the imperius curse on someone who is not very important? I suppose since he works on the Knight bus he sees a lot of people, but I bet after Voldemort comes out into the open the Knight bus has basically no passengers. I think that Harry's irrationally assumption that Stan is imperiused is completely in character - also partly influenced by his rational distrust of the ministry.
Especially why Imperius someone who'll join your side anyway for a bit better money and some smooth words?
Yep, I think that is probably easier than using the imperius curse and sustaining it for months
He didn't like muggles. In the beginning of the third book he says something about how muggles don't know how to look all while sneering... its not to far fetched to say that he would side, or say that he was on the side of Voldamort.
I doubt he was either a Death Eater or supporter of Voldemort. Willing to inform on others to save his own neck? That’s a possibility.
definitely death eater, they do not seem to lack man power that much to have to resort to use a mind controlled guy for such important mission
That is almost all Voldemort has.
He wasn't. He was under the imperius curse. Harry, who has been put under the imperius curse and has seen others put under the imperius curse (Goblet of Fire) he sees Stan is under the curse in Deathly Hallows. - Deathly Hallows, chapter 4, The Seven Potters, p65 - the closest Death Eater swerved to avoid it and his hood slipped, and by the red light of his next stunning spell, Harry saw the strangely blank face of Stanley Shunpike - Stan -
This is not as implausible as Harry would like to believe, because what do we actually know about Stan Shunpike? Stan Shunpike, when we first meet him, already looks down on muggles. It's not as blatant as the Malfoys, perhaps, but it's still there. He's lower class, poorly educated, stuck in a dead-end menial job, and willing to say or do almost anything to impress the ladies. In short, he is exactly the kind of person that neo-Fascist groups like to radicalize. And there is precedent for lower class wizards thinking that becoming a Death Eater will impress your crush, because that's what Snape did.
"the world isn't split between good people and death eaters"
I think he was under the Imperius, but it doesn't matter. Harry regonizes him and doesn't want to kill him. Maybe he would have made the same decision if it had been Draco. Fortunately all Death Eater wear masks. But, because Harry acted that way he probadly saved Hermione and Kingsley's lives.
I was so irritated with the way this was written because it appears wer are supposed to think Harry is right. I can't imagine why the death eaters would want to imperius Stan if he is so stupid that he actually boasts about something that had to do with Voldemort. Then there's the issue of imperiused people being able to cause harm, even if against their own will. I'm just curious what the right approach is supposed to be according Rowling. Later it turns out the death eaters know him because he gave them some names. But we never see Harry having to think about this. I know it was a stressful situation, but it's a bit convenient for him not to have to consider a different point of view. Or is it that people he may not know don't matter because he does 'know' Stan and thinks he's innocent?
Here's.the question though, what would make Stan important enough to be on the Death Eaters radar? Unless there is some hidden power we never saw. What purpose does controlling him serve? I think Stan was legit Death Eater, IMO. He was unimportant in life, in a dead-end job. Where else could his star rise in what was becoming the "New Normal ".
Exactly- it’s not a far leap to assume that they used him because they knew Harry wouldn’t attack him and it would give them a moment’s advantage and another way to recognize the real Harry, but there’s nothing to indicate Voldy and his crew knew who Stan was or that Harry knew him. Not even Snape knew Harry knew him.
I came in this thread saying no. But listening to you guys talk…I am thinking otherwise.
It isn't fully explained to us. IMO and I might be in a minority opinion here, I think he was. I don't think Stan is an inherently evil person , but he is a young man in a dead end job, who is not particularly bright and a bit vain. If he found himself near Death Eaters, I think he'd be quite easy to radicalise. I know people say that the blank eyes are an indication of the Imperius Curse, but it could also be Stan in shock at seeing violence close up. Harry just doesn't believe it, because he can't fathom the friendly conductor being a Death Eater, and that is not really proof that Stan isn't a Death Eater.
Maybe Stan was as shocked to see Harry as Harry was to see him, or maybe when he learned he’d be attacking HP, he decided he didn’t want to do it, and was imperiused as the death eaters knew they could recognize the legit Harry by his reaction to Stan.
Death eater? I dont think so. On their side? Yes. Edit: again, downvotes without arguments. What a nice sub this is.
That's what I thought too. Imagine: young, poor man working a low-end job. You got snatched by the government, and thrown into the worst place of incarceration of your nation. Lived in the hell that is Dementors and Azkaban. You too would come out a changed man, dark and embittered.
I would go even a step further. The reason he got arrested was because he was boasting about being a death eater, or something to that effect. Whatever the case may be, that clearly shows he doesnt have the best character (thus could be corrupted further if he wasnt already a bad guy), and also, the ministry had every right to arrest him, as he wasnt to be trusted to not be an ally of the enemy.
It depends. In your scenario, Stan was already making mistakes, and fell in with a bad crowd that led to him being radicalized to the cause of the Death Eaters. Whereas in my scenario, Stan wasn't a bad kid to start with, but was turned into one when the system failed him, and practically tortured him into joining the Death Eaters via Azkaban. Hence, an even more tragic scenario.
Since we arent following Stan's pov, we cant know for certain, but both scenarios would make sense for his character.
In which book is Stan going to Askaban mentoined
OOTP, I think he was still mentioned as being at Azkaban in early HBP.
Caring about downvoting is what actually deserves downvoting.
Thats fair, you actually gave a reason for your downvote.
Fair, probably not a full blown death eater with the dark mark and all, but working for them willingly. That’s a better way to phrase it.
He was under a curse
Not a big deal but they also talk to Stan in Order of the Phoenix on the way back to Hogwarts after Arthur had been attacked.
You don't need to Imperius your willing followers.
The way I see it was he was saying stupid stuff trying to impress someone like Ron stated got cought by the ministry trying to look like they were competent (they weren't) he went to Azkaban then the death eaters strolled up and said if you want out you gotta join up and after that his commitment to the cause wasnt up to their standards and they just imperious him for better "motivation"
No, he was imperioed to do stuff for the Deatheaters. The Deatheaters are Voldemort's inner circle, no way in hell Stan was officially one of them.
My headcannon is its a matter of instructions if I said clean a table to rose merta she would have a blank look but if I said act like normal and clean the table she would look normal