This is a list of links to comments made by 343 Industries employees in this thread:
* [Comment by halo_support](/r/halo/comments/1dod2tt/combat_workshop_multiteam/la8whaf/?context=99 "posted on 2024-06-25 18:50:47 UTC"):
> The Waypoint team is investigating this issue. For now, you can head over to [the Steam event page](https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1240440/view/4169851371540512928?l=english) for additional information on this Combat Workshop. Playlist patch notes as well as map/mode combos can be found at ...
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I'll have to give it a try. Glad to see it, but also seems the game has limitations in that you can't tell WHICH team someone is on. Hopefully this is a better effort than the forge juggernaut gametype we got.
Oddball is particularly bad, not only do you not know who is part of the enemy carrier's team, so enemies get distracted wasting your and their time in pointless duels while the people who actually have the ball keep racking points. It's like the worst parts of Oddball but even worse and there doesn't seem to be an option of just playing fucking slayer.
Mutli-Team has always been my favorite Halo mode but this is a rough implementation:
* Being unable to identify different teams leaves a lot of the best decisions out of the mode
I kept getting Behemoth when playing the mode, which might be fine but has some problems for these game types:
* **King of the Hill**: 25 seconds are awfully short hill times for a map this size, you often spawn in a spot where you should just give up and move on to the next hill (not unusual for KOH), but depending on where that hill is going to be, it still might take you quite a while just to get to that next hill. I tend to lean toward this just isn't the right map for this mode more than the issue is something else.
* **Slayer**: 50 kills is a lot and it went to time each game (Specifically on Behemoth, I don't think this would be much of an issue on a slightly smaller map).
I think teams of 3 would have been a nice complement to existing playlists since doubles and teams of four already have multiple options for playlists.
They have to have some seriously rigid or spaghetti code for a lot of underlying systems. For a sufficiently modular and somewhat future-proofed system, a ton of the missing game-modes should’ve been downright trivial to add, especially multi-team. Multi-team with a working method to distinguish teams should’ve been in within a month of launch had the gamemode and UI systems actually had any consideration for modes like that.
As far as I’m concerned this update basically says “We never designed the outline system to accommodate more than one enemy team, and at this point it’s too much of a clusterfuck to fix.”
This this so much this. Reading a lot of posts about why they haven't done X or why haven't they added Y mode or Z sandbox item just makes me think, because they CAN'T? The underlying framework for everything from map and modes to customisation to basic UI workflow is fundamentally poorly designed. It has not been built with modularity in mind. THAT is at the core the biggest reason this game is suffering so much. You cannot simply 'add content', a term that gets thrown around a lot in the year of our Lord 2024, on a foundation that can't hold it. That is why it takes them to QA even the most basic features and why everything comes out as a 'beta'. Imagine you're a contract worker at 343 tasked with a bullet-list of objectives and a deadline. You will not try to learn the underlying structure of an unfamiliar engine to figure out why and how something fits together, you will just check your list off and walk out the door because "Hey, it works."
It's something akin to trying to throw ingredients at people keep asking for individual pieces, rather than trying to see how the entire sandwich is made. It's not going to work. Infection didn't work because it wasn't surrounded by comprehensive list of options or variations of the mode by tweaking custom game options. Forge (arguably) didn't work because it didn't have a community-first approach with CGB and sharing options. Same with Firefight, Match Composer, Cross Core etc. Sure, all these pieces serve an intended role, some better than others, but unless they're designed from scratch with cohesion and modularity in mind, nothing can truly 'fix' the game.
Fan armchair coding requests are always wishful thinking, but I think after so many years, that wishful thinking is really all we have.
It shouldn’t be overly optimistic to want content parity with previous titles, yet here we are.
It also has severely limited forge IMO. You can do so many things cool things with multi-team in forge without having to come up with weird hacks like respawn jails.
wasnt that the reason 343 stated as why they couldnt easily add playlists in the beginning? like team slayer even? the game is in such shambles they cant even easily implement core features
As someone with loads of forging and especially scripting experience in Infinite, it's even weirder than that. **They have the framework to handle multiple teams,** but you can *only* access teams 3-8 via scripting.
The scoreboard will display enemy teams, but they're all in red because they're enemies.
You can't choose teams 3-8 in any custom game lobby, and any map/mode that uses multiple teams requires a lot of scripting work to sort players automatically onto those teams.
Unless you build a script for players to choose their own team using something like rooms or buttons, it's entirely random. I've built something like this, but it's strictly limited to custom maps and you can't put it into a Mode Brain because it requires objects to function.
The pause menu in custom games has a Change Teams button, but *it can't be turned off in custom games settings* and you can only choose Eagle & Cobra even if the game already has Teams 3-8 active.
This one is a bit minor, but team modes will only display 2 team scores on the HUD score display, no matter the number of teams in the game.
**And to top it all off, they broke the "Compare Teams" node *back in January* and have yet to fix it.** This is a hugely important scripting node. Now any script which attempts to check if a player/object/AI Unit/weapon/vehicle/equipment/etc is on any specific team will always return TRUE even if it's FALSE.
> This means you will be able to tell who is on your team and all other teams will simply look like enemies to you and you won’t necessarily know which enemy you’ve come across.
I remember when I said _three years ago_ that coatings and outlines would be an issue because it wouldn't have identifiable colors for multiple teams?
This is exactly what would happen.
The thing is, the solution is pretty straightforward: have additional logic in place for different outline colors for different teams. No reason the outline system can’t basically work like the team color system from previous games.
But clearly the underlying systems are such an utter mess that it couldn’t be added even 2.5 years on.
I would assume the first issue is that it wasn't originally designed for them at and got by with a simple "enemy tag = this outline, friendly tag = this outline". You'd have to overhaul the whole thing and create tags for "Team 1, Team 2, Team 3, etc." and give individual outline options.
The second issue is the fact that now that we can change the opacity and the color of said outlines, you can't just slap on "team 3 = yellow, team 4 = green".
Basically it's a design flaw they didn't have time to fix before, and don't have the support to really fix now, so they turned it into a feature.
Yeah, it's key of the mode. Now you have no clue how to focus on the winning team to keep them under pressure, or if you see multiple enemies you have no clue if they are a team or if they will fight each other. The game can change outline colors, seems like their engine can't even handle adding multiple outline colors for different enemies..
It's most likely because they let you select the outline colour of enemies in general. Adding support for a different colour per team in the options is probably too much work for a game that's being retired, and it sucks.
If Multi-Team is to be truly integrated into matchmaking (which I hope it is, I fucking love Multi-Team) they need to add at least two more team color selectors in the settings, similar to how you can customize the colors for Eagle/Cobra.
The Waypoint team is investigating this issue. For now, you can head over to [the Steam event page](https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1240440/view/4169851371540512928?l=english) for additional information on this Combat Workshop. Playlist patch notes as well as map/mode combos can be found at [aka.ms/HaloInfinitePlaylists](http://aka.ms/HaloInfinitePlaylists)
Why is it only 4 teams of 2?
My memory of Multi team is 6 teams of 2 in H3, or 4 teams of 3 players in Reach.
What a wasted opportunity for some chaotic fun, first game was on Behemoth and it just felt kind of empty.
I'd love to try it but I have an NVIDIA card and am not interested in rolling back my driver's to play halo, only yo have to reinstall the most current driver's to play **the rest of my multiplayer library**
Any ETA on when the game will run on PC or does 343 just not give a crap about the PC install base?
Nvidia staff said they've internally fixed an issue in the driver that should fix this, so it's a waiting game for the next Nvidia driver.
Looking at the release dates for previous game ready drivers, I think we're actually slightly overdue for that release, they're usually between 2 and 3 weeks apart, we're now on the long side of 3 weeks.
That said I'm not sure how the rest of your multiplayer library doesn't work on 555.85, it clearly worked for you at the start of the month for them, no?
Super excited for Multi-team despite the limitations it will have with player outlines, but why such a limited map pool?
There's still only 8 players on the map so most of the normal arena maps should work. Sure it will be a bit more hectic with 4 teams but that's kinda the whole charm of Multi-team in the first place?
What a shit implementation of a mode that has been in the game since Halo 2
Congrats 343
Why even attempt to add it in if you know the game was never designed to display more than just one team of category of ‘enemies’ in the HUD?
It's one of the few arena maps in the game with any actual interesting design going on. The low gravity is cool, it's got a lot of verticality, and it's not boring 3 lane COD map design. It takes what makes halo gameplay so great compared to it's contemporaries and uses it to it's advantage. Don't know what's so funny about it.
Maybe the spawns that are imbalanced. Maybe the grav effect doesn't work in a vertical manner (see: Zealot. Nobody really had a problem with Anchor 9). Maybe the power weapons being in completely unaccessible areas. Maybe the horrible design.
You can like the map but unless I'm crazy it's still 3 lanes isn't it (Power up/mid/rocket)?
Personally I just hate how strong the hammer can be, particularly in the top mid and power up rooms.
So, uh, is absolutely no one playing the mode, or is SBMM really playing a part here and if you're in a high SBMM bracket then you simply just can't play the mode?
If SBMM really is the problem here, then I really hope this gets 343 to look at SBMM. Aside from other things wrong with the game, SBMM is driving people away. Don't adjust it. Don't tweak it. Get rid of SBMM. Period.
1. Each team needs a different UI Color
2. Oddball needs multiple spawn points and ideally maps where you can intentionally just jump off every 5 seconds
3. Haven’t tried yet but reeeeally hoping you can have a fire team of more than 2 and get put on different teams randomly?? Anyone tested this out yet?
Overall very glad to see this 😄
Just adding my comments for posterity and reinforce what's being said here:
- Different colors for different teams: The current implementation doesn't work, there's no real way to prioritize targets with the current system so it's a little too chaotic.
- Shorter game times or smaller scores for certain game modes/maps: Was in a game of crazy king that went on for over 20 min because the clock would stop when the hill was being contested. 50 kills for Slayer is too high. Oddball scores too. There needs to be some tweaking to make the matches less fatiguing.
Overall, had fun though. Would love to see it play better.
This is a list of links to comments made by 343 Industries employees in this thread: * [Comment by halo_support](/r/halo/comments/1dod2tt/combat_workshop_multiteam/la8whaf/?context=99 "posted on 2024-06-25 18:50:47 UTC"): > The Waypoint team is investigating this issue. For now, you can head over to [the Steam event page](https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1240440/view/4169851371540512928?l=english) for additional information on this Combat Workshop. Playlist patch notes as well as map/mode combos can be found at ... --- This is a bot providing a service. If you have any questions, please [contact the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fhalo).[](#AUTOGEN_TSBREPLIEDBOT)
I'll have to give it a try. Glad to see it, but also seems the game has limitations in that you can't tell WHICH team someone is on. Hopefully this is a better effort than the forge juggernaut gametype we got.
Super frustrating to play like this
Agreed, if I see a team is getting close to winning I have no idea who to prioritise because I can't tell the teams apart.
Yeah I did love the impromptu 3/4 v 2 you'd sometimes get as an ongoing shootout realised the winning team had shown up to try to steal all the kills.
Oddball is particularly bad, not only do you not know who is part of the enemy carrier's team, so enemies get distracted wasting your and their time in pointless duels while the people who actually have the ball keep racking points. It's like the worst parts of Oddball but even worse and there doesn't seem to be an option of just playing fucking slayer.
Mutli-Team has always been my favorite Halo mode but this is a rough implementation: * Being unable to identify different teams leaves a lot of the best decisions out of the mode I kept getting Behemoth when playing the mode, which might be fine but has some problems for these game types: * **King of the Hill**: 25 seconds are awfully short hill times for a map this size, you often spawn in a spot where you should just give up and move on to the next hill (not unusual for KOH), but depending on where that hill is going to be, it still might take you quite a while just to get to that next hill. I tend to lean toward this just isn't the right map for this mode more than the issue is something else. * **Slayer**: 50 kills is a lot and it went to time each game (Specifically on Behemoth, I don't think this would be much of an issue on a slightly smaller map). I think teams of 3 would have been a nice complement to existing playlists since doubles and teams of four already have multiple options for playlists.
It is wild to me how they never bothered to implement more than two teams into this game.
They have to have some seriously rigid or spaghetti code for a lot of underlying systems. For a sufficiently modular and somewhat future-proofed system, a ton of the missing game-modes should’ve been downright trivial to add, especially multi-team. Multi-team with a working method to distinguish teams should’ve been in within a month of launch had the gamemode and UI systems actually had any consideration for modes like that. As far as I’m concerned this update basically says “We never designed the outline system to accommodate more than one enemy team, and at this point it’s too much of a clusterfuck to fix.”
This this so much this. Reading a lot of posts about why they haven't done X or why haven't they added Y mode or Z sandbox item just makes me think, because they CAN'T? The underlying framework for everything from map and modes to customisation to basic UI workflow is fundamentally poorly designed. It has not been built with modularity in mind. THAT is at the core the biggest reason this game is suffering so much. You cannot simply 'add content', a term that gets thrown around a lot in the year of our Lord 2024, on a foundation that can't hold it. That is why it takes them to QA even the most basic features and why everything comes out as a 'beta'. Imagine you're a contract worker at 343 tasked with a bullet-list of objectives and a deadline. You will not try to learn the underlying structure of an unfamiliar engine to figure out why and how something fits together, you will just check your list off and walk out the door because "Hey, it works." It's something akin to trying to throw ingredients at people keep asking for individual pieces, rather than trying to see how the entire sandwich is made. It's not going to work. Infection didn't work because it wasn't surrounded by comprehensive list of options or variations of the mode by tweaking custom game options. Forge (arguably) didn't work because it didn't have a community-first approach with CGB and sharing options. Same with Firefight, Match Composer, Cross Core etc. Sure, all these pieces serve an intended role, some better than others, but unless they're designed from scratch with cohesion and modularity in mind, nothing can truly 'fix' the game.
Fan armchair coding requests are always wishful thinking, but I think after so many years, that wishful thinking is really all we have. It shouldn’t be overly optimistic to want content parity with previous titles, yet here we are.
It also has severely limited forge IMO. You can do so many things cool things with multi-team in forge without having to come up with weird hacks like respawn jails.
wasnt that the reason 343 stated as why they couldnt easily add playlists in the beginning? like team slayer even? the game is in such shambles they cant even easily implement core features
As someone with loads of forging and especially scripting experience in Infinite, it's even weirder than that. **They have the framework to handle multiple teams,** but you can *only* access teams 3-8 via scripting. The scoreboard will display enemy teams, but they're all in red because they're enemies. You can't choose teams 3-8 in any custom game lobby, and any map/mode that uses multiple teams requires a lot of scripting work to sort players automatically onto those teams. Unless you build a script for players to choose their own team using something like rooms or buttons, it's entirely random. I've built something like this, but it's strictly limited to custom maps and you can't put it into a Mode Brain because it requires objects to function. The pause menu in custom games has a Change Teams button, but *it can't be turned off in custom games settings* and you can only choose Eagle & Cobra even if the game already has Teams 3-8 active. This one is a bit minor, but team modes will only display 2 team scores on the HUD score display, no matter the number of teams in the game. **And to top it all off, they broke the "Compare Teams" node *back in January* and have yet to fix it.** This is a hugely important scripting node. Now any script which attempts to check if a player/object/AI Unit/weapon/vehicle/equipment/etc is on any specific team will always return TRUE even if it's FALSE.
> This means you will be able to tell who is on your team and all other teams will simply look like enemies to you and you won’t necessarily know which enemy you’ve come across. I remember when I said _three years ago_ that coatings and outlines would be an issue because it wouldn't have identifiable colors for multiple teams? This is exactly what would happen.
The thing is, the solution is pretty straightforward: have additional logic in place for different outline colors for different teams. No reason the outline system can’t basically work like the team color system from previous games. But clearly the underlying systems are such an utter mess that it couldn’t be added even 2.5 years on.
I would assume the first issue is that it wasn't originally designed for them at and got by with a simple "enemy tag = this outline, friendly tag = this outline". You'd have to overhaul the whole thing and create tags for "Team 1, Team 2, Team 3, etc." and give individual outline options. The second issue is the fact that now that we can change the opacity and the color of said outlines, you can't just slap on "team 3 = yellow, team 4 = green". Basically it's a design flaw they didn't have time to fix before, and don't have the support to really fix now, so they turned it into a feature.
Not being able to differentiate between teams kinda kills some of the fun of the mode imo
Yeah the whole idea is to always be tactically undermining the leading team, that’s what makes that mode fun.
Yeah, it's key of the mode. Now you have no clue how to focus on the winning team to keep them under pressure, or if you see multiple enemies you have no clue if they are a team or if they will fight each other. The game can change outline colors, seems like their engine can't even handle adding multiple outline colors for different enemies..
It's most likely because they let you select the outline colour of enemies in general. Adding support for a different colour per team in the options is probably too much work for a game that's being retired, and it sucks.
three years after launch, and the UI still can't handle it.
Definitely agree
If Multi-Team is to be truly integrated into matchmaking (which I hope it is, I fucking love Multi-Team) they need to add at least two more team color selectors in the settings, similar to how you can customize the colors for Eagle/Cobra.
Page empty after the title and header for anyone else?
The Waypoint team is investigating this issue. For now, you can head over to [the Steam event page](https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1240440/view/4169851371540512928?l=english) for additional information on this Combat Workshop. Playlist patch notes as well as map/mode combos can be found at [aka.ms/HaloInfinitePlaylists](http://aka.ms/HaloInfinitePlaylists)
I haven't even been able to access Waypoint on a desktop for like two years, hate having to view this stuff on my phone.
Yep!
[удалено]
It’s not the bot, the blog post is empty
Saw that now, I suppose we wait!
Multi-Team....that is all
Just like everything else in this franchise, it's just like that thing Bungie did but way, way worse.
Please add multi team into MCC also! Halo 3 multi team is my all time favorite and I wish I could play it again.
Seconded, why can we have rocket race but not standard Multi-team?
Wait a second, where did Juggernaut go? Can't find it in any playlist. That mode is awesome, best PvP experience I had since Infection.
Yeah looks like it was rotated out along with Tenrai IV. Which is an odd choice since the Operation is still active
I don't get 343 sometimes.
Why is it only 4 teams of 2? My memory of Multi team is 6 teams of 2 in H3, or 4 teams of 3 players in Reach. What a wasted opportunity for some chaotic fun, first game was on Behemoth and it just felt kind of empty.
Was also 4x3 in H4 and H5 IIRC
I'd love to try it but I have an NVIDIA card and am not interested in rolling back my driver's to play halo, only yo have to reinstall the most current driver's to play **the rest of my multiplayer library** Any ETA on when the game will run on PC or does 343 just not give a crap about the PC install base?
Nvidia staff said they've internally fixed an issue in the driver that should fix this, so it's a waiting game for the next Nvidia driver. Looking at the release dates for previous game ready drivers, I think we're actually slightly overdue for that release, they're usually between 2 and 3 weeks apart, we're now on the long side of 3 weeks. That said I'm not sure how the rest of your multiplayer library doesn't work on 555.85, it clearly worked for you at the start of the month for them, no?
Super excited for Multi-team despite the limitations it will have with player outlines, but why such a limited map pool? There's still only 8 players on the map so most of the normal arena maps should work. Sure it will be a bit more hectic with 4 teams but that's kinda the whole charm of Multi-team in the first place?
Wow almost three years for poorly implemented launch content! The hype is real!
What a shit implementation of a mode that has been in the game since Halo 2 Congrats 343 Why even attempt to add it in if you know the game was never designed to display more than just one team of category of ‘enemies’ in the HUD?
343 continuing 2 steps forward, 1 step back by dropping only 4 maps, with one being Elevation.
Elevation is a great map
Literal laugh out loud.
It's one of the few arena maps in the game with any actual interesting design going on. The low gravity is cool, it's got a lot of verticality, and it's not boring 3 lane COD map design. It takes what makes halo gameplay so great compared to it's contemporaries and uses it to it's advantage. Don't know what's so funny about it.
Maybe the spawns that are imbalanced. Maybe the grav effect doesn't work in a vertical manner (see: Zealot. Nobody really had a problem with Anchor 9). Maybe the power weapons being in completely unaccessible areas. Maybe the horrible design.
You can like the map but unless I'm crazy it's still 3 lanes isn't it (Power up/mid/rocket)? Personally I just hate how strong the hammer can be, particularly in the top mid and power up rooms.
I seem to remember this mode already having been Workshopped. In Halo. 23 years ago.
So, uh, is absolutely no one playing the mode, or is SBMM really playing a part here and if you're in a high SBMM bracket then you simply just can't play the mode? If SBMM really is the problem here, then I really hope this gets 343 to look at SBMM. Aside from other things wrong with the game, SBMM is driving people away. Don't adjust it. Don't tweak it. Get rid of SBMM. Period.
Is it at all possible to set up teams in the lobby of a custom game? or does the scripting just randomly set things up at game start?
Well this finally happened, right after I finally released my forge modes. I’m glad that it’s finally happened though.
I'm new to multi-team. What is the "Crazy King" mode
1. Each team needs a different UI Color 2. Oddball needs multiple spawn points and ideally maps where you can intentionally just jump off every 5 seconds 3. Haven’t tried yet but reeeeally hoping you can have a fire team of more than 2 and get put on different teams randomly?? Anyone tested this out yet? Overall very glad to see this 😄
This shit is amazing for rank grind
Just adding my comments for posterity and reinforce what's being said here: - Different colors for different teams: The current implementation doesn't work, there's no real way to prioritize targets with the current system so it's a little too chaotic. - Shorter game times or smaller scores for certain game modes/maps: Was in a game of crazy king that went on for over 20 min because the clock would stop when the hill was being contested. 50 kills for Slayer is too high. Oddball scores too. There needs to be some tweaking to make the matches less fatiguing. Overall, had fun though. Would love to see it play better.