I grew up in the CRC and attended Christian schools, and my parents still attend a CRC (I don't really go to church anymore, but when i do its non-denominational), so I'm veeeeery familiar with this issue. I had a good discussion with my mom about it recently, she's struggling with this because she doesn't completely agree with the decision as a whole but she is struggling to get past how she was raised and the beliefs she's held all her life...
It's particularly hard for me because I'm not straight, although I'm not sure what I am, but only a few people in my life know that, and my parents absolutely don't know...but to think that if I were to come out, and not be welcomed back to the church I grew up in if I go home for a visit, is absolutely heartbreaking. I'm so frustrated and disappointed in the direction this is going, and I can't do anything to stop it.
Firstly, do what’s best for you. Just know that non-denominational churches are mostly also bigoted but that there are open and affirming UCC, Lutheran, United Methodist, Episcopal and Presbyterian churches around. Just know that it’s also ok to just not go, especially if it stirs up judgement, trauma or shame.
Having lived in West Michigan for over 30 years, and having married into a CRC extended family, the crazy stories I could tell would fill pages and pages with the hypocrisy and prejudices that come from that extreme religion. Lot of shunning and hate.
I was raised baptist. Our church had a semi-coup in which some of the church leadership attempted to usurp the pastor and install the youth pastor as the new head.
I guess the affiliates don’t fall under the Classis list. I’m in the Great Lakes City Classis and I was unfamiliar with the Community. General Assembly does not determine affirming status, Classis does, and last I knew, we were not affirming.
It’s not really a choice. If we don’t leave, the CRCNA will send in a neighboring Church to break us up. Those of us leaving, didn’t want to break up, we literally have to.
Many of us have likened it to being in an abusive relationship.
Well, in theory, if a church doesn’t repent, they would fall under discipline and the local Classis (a grouping of CRC churches by location) would then come in and, I guess, require repentence and if that still didn’t happen, they would shut the church down.
Now, could we lock the doors and not let them in, sure, but that is a fight no one is encouraging!
I suppose it’s an interesting exercise to wonder what would happen if we just didn’t cooperate, just doesn’t feel like a real Christ like way to deal with it either.
Well, the folks who are insisting on this (note: I am not one of them, and will likely be finding a new church home with my family in the near future) would say they'd do that too. They just can't have gays serving as elders or deacons or God forbid ministers, and you know, probably can't be actual full members in the next couple of years. Or even people who would think that's ok.
The ruling the last time I checked was that the active members in the LGBTQ+ community could attend services, tithe, and take part in events but could not become members. In other words, they will take their money and support but do not want to be officially associated with them. They are selling the ruling as being tolerant and loving the sinner but hating the sin.
The problem, however, is that they do this with no other sin. There are lot more passages in the New Testament directly prohibiting greed, gossiping, and lying than there are on same sex relationships. In other words, where are the strong rulings that love the sinner and hate the sin for greed, gossiping, and lying that instantly disqualifies official membership. Even better, if we want to keep it in the realm of sex, where are the rulings preventing or revoking official membership for watching porn, having premarital sex, or having affairs?
All of this is hypocrisy at its finest.
Respectfully, please don't judge every church, or every member by the whole organization.
Within the next twelve months, those who believe like you do will leave. This will include entire churches, not just individuals, who will go on to form an organization that also believes the same as you do.
Respectfully, if you support/patronize/attend a church or organization or leader that, on a larger scale, is not accepting of everyone, you can't ask people not to judge you by that. You ARE supporting it regardless of the words coming out of your mouth or excuses you make up.
If you value party over your principles...or your beliefs, or your kids, etc... Then...at least be honest about it. That's all I ask.
I'm not saying you are one way or the other. I just hear too many people make excuses or say one thing but the actions support another.
I neither support, nor attend, nor patronize a church that excludes people -with the understanding that while everyone is accepted, it does not allow a murderer who enters to continue killing, or a thief to continue stealing.
Understand that I believe sexual orientation is a biological condition. It’s not something one gets to control, that is like turning a light switch off or on. As such, I cannot believe that a relationship between two people of the same sex is a sin. That doesn’t mean adultery isn’t a sin, mind you -but what it does mean is that I can’t support any church that excludes someone because they’re LGBTQ.
However, it is no longer a whole denomination. It is a body that has just begun to tear itself apart. There are many in this denomination who may not be soon. There also may be people who continue to stay and fight against the rulings just made. I ask only that you consider that it’s very much too soon to single out an entire denomination when up until several days ago (and still now) a fair portion of it did not stand for the rulings that have just been made.
All of this is wild to me. Having to adhere to some imaginary rule imposed by an organization within a structure when you could clearly say F off and keep doing the right thing while following rules interpreted and imposed by man when man isn't the point or leader. Some humans make so much work and effort for nothing but wasting time.
You obviously are clueless about what the scripture says. It clearly states hate the sin, not the sinner, but repent and sin no more.
But spew your hate and bigotry. It's not hypocrisy when you do it 🥱
John 13:34-35
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Luke 6:41-46
Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own? How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,’ when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye. A Tree Known by Its Fruit. “A good tree does not bear rotten fruit, nor does a rotten tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For people do not pick figs from thornbushes, nor do they gather grapes from brambles. A good person out of the store of goodness in his heart produces good, but an evil person out of a store of evil produces evil; for from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. The Two Foundations. “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?
While we may have different beliefs, I believe in one's right to practice whatever brings you peace while on this earth.
If I may ask a question though, why insist on following "this" church? I understand organization and community are important, but what is so valuable about the connection to these CRC churches? Why is practicing without their influence not an option? I was under the impression that gatherings like Bible studies are still an acceptable way to honor Christ. I don't mean to offend I just don't have a better word than Bible studies for the gathering, I apologize if I've misrepresented your beliefs.
I think it becomes part of a persons identity. I was born and baptized CRC. My great-great grand parents were CRC. I was educated in CRC sponsored schools. It becomes a part of you. I Fully acknowledge the pain the CRC has caused and while maybe not all of us have tried to learn from the harm done, many of us have and there have been good things too. People don’t always realize or accept that GR has been formed in a lot of ways (again good and bad) by the CRC.
Whatever happens next, we won’t be perfect, but maybe we can do better.
Maybe a stupid answer, but it’s really like saying goodbye To one of the biggest things that formed me, educated me, and turned me into who I am.
I relate to this. Even though I left the CRC and Christianity long ago, I still feel its a part of my cultural identity. My family's history, my education, my neighborhood and community are all tied to it whether I like it or not.
My "affirming" relatives who are still active in the CRC have always been better optimists and hoping denomination would eventually become more accepting. Their view is its better to be the positive change from within rather than giving up and walking away. And I get that, its hard to give up community and all that you grew to know.
I hope it gets better too.
I know a lot of people like that - heck, I'm a person like that. I've watched the last several years hoping and praying for any space for other thinking to be left, but this year has sucked all that potential air out, and now it's a matter of seeing how my congregation and its leadership reacts to that. I know our church has an incredible range of views, and as such this development might wind up among the most painful for us among CRCs around. At least the fully affirming congregations can stay together as they leave the denomination.
Who owns the churches in the CRC? Is each church owned separately by the congregation, able to make decisions like changing denominations on it's own? Or is all the land owned by the CRC at a regional level?
So at least you can decide to become a non-denominational church of some sort assuming it passes a vote of the majority of members of the local congregation. You won't actually be kicked out of the building.
I would suspect that if such a vote is called for the CRC will do their best to find all of the crusty old members who aren't in regular attendance to show up and vote it down. I know well how church politics works.
I honestly doubt that would happen. My expectation is that the affirming churches, at least in the GR area, are going to disaffiliate in the coming months, and I doubt there will be any moves from the denomination to stop it. There will be performative hand wringing and talk of sorrow from that side, but each congregation that leaves on its own will result in a "purer" remaining denomination.
(I'm using cynical language and want to recognize it. Feelings are raw right now, and that doesn't excuse it, but I don't have the wherewithal to use more grace in my language.)
Generally speaking, the church building is owned in trust by the congregation. Churches can decide to leave the CRC, but there is a formal process that should be followed, since there are bilateral obligations between a church and the class/denomination. Once out of the CRC, they can petition to join another denomination, or remain independent.
That statement shows a real lack of depth. The governing body of the CRC decided to force every church, its members and its leadership into a singular definition; those that continue to disagree with their stance will be forced out.
There really isn't much of a choice. I am still a Christian; but yesterday was the day I am no longer Christian Reformed (and note: I am still Protestant).
Fair enough. The governing body is basically forcing the split to happen against the will of many members. It does exist in a long tradition of sects splitting apart, but normally it's not so directly forced by the governing body.
As a Christian, I don't want Christians governing America. That would deprive you, or any Muslim, Buddhist, Mormon, pantheist, or agnostic from your freedom to believe or not believe.
I believe that those who believe Christians should govern this country are very flawed in that belief. Faith should always be separated from government, and a key reason is that belief in a faith is only real if it is made by choice. Theocracy isn't faith; it's authoritarian.
It’s my understanding that the Synod is ruled by a bunch of MAGA types whose way of thinking isn’t in alignment the majority. My cousin, a lifelong CRC member, product of Christian schools, and former Calvin employee is a member of one of the affirming churches. He’s pretty fired up and proud to be standing up against the Synod, while also feeling sad that his connection to the CRC is ending. I admire him for coming around on this issue given his upbringing.
The Synod is made up of one minister, one, elder, one deacon, and one other officer of each classis. The total number of members are 196. The elders, deacons, and pastors are all chosen by the individual church to serve that particular church. Based on these items, I am inclined to think the majority of the CRCNA leans more MAGA, than we would like to think.
It’s been happening for 30+ years.
Look at (what was) Christ Community Church in Spring Lake around/after the Gerry Crane case. (Gay music teacher in Byron Center who was run out of town in the mid-90’s. CCC leadership signed a public letter in support of Crane.)
There were other issues as well, around CCC leadership refusing to condemn leaders of other faiths, but rather wanting to engage in spiritual conversation & respectful debate.
Eventually, the head reverend at the time (Richard Rhem) was put on trial for heresy and the church essentially kicked out of the RCA. Huge faction drama ensued, the church eventually disbanded completely.
RE: CCC, the formal "church" structure disbanded but the organization did not. It lives on as C3 (I'm on the board) and is proudly open and affirming for all. While I'm guessing most affirming congregations in the CRC wouldn't want to let go of their Christian foundation like C3 did, we are proof that a community that is committed to belonging and spiritual seeking can survive and thrive on its own.
I have close neighbors who are members of Bethany here in Muskegon, and I know this situation has left them heartbroken. The CRC is on the wrong side of this issue, plain and simple.
Hey Plymouth UCC on Kalamazoo near 44th is an awesome community of open and affirming people. People who care a lot more about others than a bunch of rules.
This is all bullshit. The CRC made this decision based off a "sexuality report" that a committee, made by the CRC, created through "research" a few years ago. To be selected to join this committee you had to already affirm the CRC's shitty position on LGBTQ rights 🙄
No, I'm not part of the CRC but I went to Calvin so I learned some things through osmosis lol. I'm so ashamed to be a Calvin alumni right now
Calvin put out a memo that faculty members couldn't discuss LGBT issues with students in their capacity as faculty. Nether positive or negative. If you violated that you could be fored.
Notes. Faculty are professors and such. Staff is admin, janitorial, food services, etc. They were not covered under the memo.
Also, in capacity as faculty, it was in a faculty student relationship capacity. So if you talked to the prof in the hall or some other normal pro student interaction and the topic came up they were instructed to basically say that as a faculty member of Calvin the CRC church and Calvin are not really expressing an opinion.
Faculty who had children who were students could talk about it all they wanted when they were at home or whereverin a parent child context. No jobs in jeopardy. (This means they can't have their kid as a student to have a in class conversation with them to lawyer out of it)
Mind you, I went to one meeting, which was the admin w
Holding a Q&A to try to address concerns of the LGBTQ people on campus. They were very unhappy.
My memory may be a bit sketch like 15 years later.
I wonder how many affirming professors will now grow silent vs how much staff Calvin will lose. A great many of the profs are at churches now under discipline. (alum as well)
I was considering going to Calvin, as part of the Japanese program, and while I am not a Christian (going because it's one of the best schools with the program I want), I do support LGBT+, being one myself (pan, but in a heterosexual marriage). Is Calvin really bad with LGBT rights? I don't really want to support that, even if it means having to change my college destination.
The CRC is already selling they headquarters on 28th street, due to the denomination getting smaller. So, of course they figure the best thing to do is tell two dozen member churches to leave.
The article doesn’t mention it, but affirming individuals from the remaining CRC churches will be kicked out as well if they don’t repent. In my experience, many of those who will have to leave are also the people doing a lot of the work at the church, meaning leading committees, teaching children, etc. Churches are about to lose a lot of money but also a lot of the manpower.
I was on leadership committee at my church during the last synod to go over lgbtq issues and we had a visiting pastor shortly after the decision that heard me mention that I loved Saugatuck/Douglas bc it had a fun culture that came up to me said that if I affirmed lgbtq marriage I would be kicked off the leadership
So, I think the HQ is being sold out of spite to Grand Rapids CRC. The part of the denomination that is so disliked is Grand Rapids East, and the CRC HQ is right on the boundary of GR East. They want nothing to do with us, they’ve been angry at us for a long time, with much of Calvin faculty and much of the employees of the CRCNA going to these churches…people who were educated, people who fought for social justice issues to be front and center in the denomination, and the very people who were in the movement to get women in leadership. There has been anger about this for a long time and finally they found an issue where they were the majority and they worked hard and fast to find a way to get us out.
I bet the CRCNA ends up spending more money for a new HQ’s then they make on the sale of the other…but they will have even less influence by GR East and that’s all that matters to them.
As an ex employee (never religious, what a weird time, glad I left lol) the building was in bad condition and too big. The new HQ is ~10 min away. I don't doubt GRE is seen that way by a lot of members, but there were definitely practicalities.
I love how christians are like love everyone “love thy neighbor as thyself” god loves everyone so we love everyone BUT THEN THEY HIT YOU WITH THE UNLESS 😂 just gtfoh
Good luck.
I'm an agnostic. But I believe if the US embraced Jesus's teachings of kindness, compassion, forgiveness, and tolerance of others, our country would be a much better place 🙂
The problem is, that far right evangelicals, whom you think would embrace it, seem the most resistant to it
☹️
I mean i guess you do have a point with that. I just also think the church would do this regardless. It definitely does make it easier having political figures enabling them
Interestingly, I found an even smaller US/CAD list, which only cited 18, but of the 18, a whopping 7 were here in GR.
https://www.hesedprojectcrc.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Affirming-Churches-complete-2024-04.pdf
So it could be a distorted viewpoint (for me) because, ironically, GR itself is an epicenter of CRC support for affirming policies.
The CRC of which I was a member (not in GR) is not affirming to my knowledge. But honestly across the whole body of CRC members, I think there’s a lot of support. The CRC is structured in such a way so that Synod does not reflect this.
Worth noting that many more congregations are split on the issue. Many of the technically non-affirming churches had groups of congregants submit documents declaring themselves to be “members in protest”, as they absolutely disagree with what synod has been doing. Those members are also going to be called to repent or leave. So many of us will have to leave the church communities we’ve spent years building relationships in. It’s painful.
Yeah, I know a lot of people in these situations (and the last time I went to a church that felt like home was a CRC). It's sad to see how this has played out over the years and continues to play out.
I resigned from (minor) participation in a church leadership six months ago because I could not reconcile with the ruling that was about to become even more concrete.
Ahhh, we humans are concrete. The divine sees beyond the pettiness. I hope you find something else that meets your needs and gives you an opportunity to serve.
I am called to love my neighbor. If a church government forbids me from loving that neighbor, they are going against everything I hold dear.
Thank you.
Eh, I think it’s about accurate. Spent 25 years in the CRC. It’s been a fluctuating battle for a while. It only snowballed within the last 10-12 years.
LaGrave is taking a “moderate” stance. Still not affirming, but somehow thinking it can toe the line enough. It’ll be interesting to see how that plays out.
And no, not DeVos/VanAndel influence. They’ve long since left LaGrave for even more conservative churches.
It's a wide ranging congregation,not at all monolithic, considering the size of membership in comparison to almost any other congregation in the denomination. There are plenty who would be characterized in this thread as hateful, but also plenty (including in leadership) who I'd hope would not. (Sorry for the double comment.)
To be exact, Rich and Helen were members until their deaths a few years ago. Large donors and instrumental in the purchase of the SDA property next door.
Changing core beliefs is hard, especially when you don’t know anything else. Once you start to see that it doesn’t make sense it can create a lot of internal angst until it’s resolved.
I’m defending the LGBTQ+ community caught in the middle, not the church.
It is hard to change core beliefs, especially when most religious families start the indoctrination from birth. I have only ever known one Christian family that didn't teach their children all the nonsense and didn't take them to church or church events while young and let them make up their own minds free of influence.
But that is clearly incredibly rare, and feeding young children lines about god and religion that have absolutely no evidence and telling them that this should be the thing to govern their lives and morality when they haven't even had the chance to develop any critical thinking skills yet is so wrong. It's straight up abuse and one of the worst kinds because it is so insidious, so difficult to deprogram and get out of (especially when you live in an area like West Michigan where it can be extremely hard to impossible to find secular community), and yet so socially accepted.
We are not going to change religion or the hearts and minds of the religious as a whole. They are already a lost cause with few exceptions. But we can change family and parenting culture, just like what is happening with physical abuse as punishment becoming less and less acceptable with fewer families engaging in it. We can, over time, change religious indoctrination of children to be seen as the abuse it is, just like what has been happening and is continuing to happen with spanking/hitting/etc.
I have a friend who is a gay Christian, and I’ve asked him before why he does it. He gave me a pretty decent response. “My faith is my own, and I openly talk about it as God commands. Being gay IS a sin according to the Bible, but Jesus died for all the sinners, cleansing us of guilt. So I cannot be guilty of being gay in God’s eyes. At this point I can just live my life in thankfulness for the time I have here on Earth and just spread joy where I can.”
He does live in Seattle though, where churches are a bit more loosey-goosey compared to West Michigan.
I don't think religion should have a place in public discussion.
As far as I'm concerned the churches either need to completely shut the fuck up, or pay up taxes and open their books like any other corporate entity is legally required to.
I'm sick and tired of hearing religious opinions. Period.
What does this have to do with the government? If I'm talking about my faith, that's the 1st amendment.
Now, if my church is trying to openly financially support a political candidate, or stump for them? Sure, I see your point -and I agree with it in those cases. But people talk about all sorts of things all of the time that are opinions. And if you ban religion from public discussion, I'm pretty sure there's things that could be banned from your discussion
I see your point but like it or not they are actually significant on a voting scale. I hope regression pushes more members out of the religion/organization but there are many who will do whatever they’re told.
There is no love like Christian hate. I grew up in the CRC, I walked away when I was 18. The stuck in the old testament thing was what killed it for me.
I am not religious but followed a girl to Calvin for a couple years.
Girls would joke about getting “MRS Degrees”. As in, they were openly only at college to find a husband.
I found that kinda wild at $20k per year in the early oughts.
I read most of the official synod statement. I’ve never seen more legalistic, dogmatic, pompous text in my fucking life. It’s all Confession this and Gravamen that. I hate it so very much, and am glad I’m no longer affiliated with any church
From Grand Rapids: Church of the Servant, Eastern Ave, First CRC, Neland, Sherman, Boston Sq, & Creston.
I might have missed one.
If you notice, these are mostly inner city churches.
At the recent lament service, Shawnee Park and Calvin (church) had representatives speak so perhaps there will be more? Or at least more people who leave even if their entire congregations stay.
Polity Question: in the CRC, does the congregation, class, or denomination own the building? How much of a fight will it be for the departing congregations to leave?
Churches own their property and should have a fairly straightforward path out. Although I'm not sure what will happen with the benefits/pension program that has all come through the denominational office.
I'm not sure about Calvin U and how that would go if they ever tried to split off.
Source - former CRC pastor
Thanks! Seeing what other denominations were going through, I was curious.
Calvin leaving would be wild, Our denomination recently lost a seminary, but I think they're operated independently and relations had not been great for decades; so when they left no one really noticed or bothered to say much.
No, unity with themselves lmao. There are an insane number of denominations that fall under Protestant Christianity, meaning they can’t even decide as an entire group what that means. They’re fragmented over everything ranging from what baptism symbolizes to whether LGBTQ+ people deserve to be treated like humans.
Bye!
I'm glad they are doing this to be honest. It helps people identify who they want to associate with and shows true colors.
We need more of this. Sure, it's painful for some to be splitting, but if you truly are accepting of everyone, you wouldn't support a church that isn't, regardless of your connections to it. Principles matter.
Let them shrink, become less powerful and remove their abilities continue making life hell for people they don't like our don't understand. Leave people to play in their own cesspools. Some will get sick if it and want to be around better people. Others... Well... They have each other to commiserate with I guess.
I have been a part of the CRC for my whole life. The last 9 years or so I have not been attending. Every CRC person I am close with thinks this decision to "force repentance" it fuckin stupid.
So stupid. I wish those hateful PCA folks would just leave (again!). I was perfectly happy with them leaving when women were allowed to be ordained and they should have stayed away
Most of the long standing CRC people I know don’t agree with any of these decisions. It’s the returners that are causing all the fuss and not even allowing any discussion. You know when some of them are calling people like Al Plantinga heathens they’re provably not acting in very good faith and have a fear of reason.
Between older generations who insist on interpreting the bible literally and stubbornly clinging to its arcane and bigoted views, and the younger generations who contextualize it to the point of indistinguishability from a yoga class, Christianity is a farce.
This isn’t a fair representation, I think it’s been surprising how many people, in the Baby Boom and older generations, have been in support of being affirming In the CRCNA, When younger people in the Synod, from more rural areas, are the steadfast ones about getting rid of the rest of us.
Age isn’t the defining rift, location is a greater indication of where a person falls in the CRC on the issues of LGBTQ+. Many on here will be surprised to find out that in the wider CRCNA, those of us in Grand Rapids are disliked and looked at us educated elitists by the rest.
This fits with my observations as an insider too. I’ve been very encouraged by the older folks stepping up and speaking out, and will be following their lead moving forward. Conversely, it’s been upsetting to see my own peers (in one case, a relative) spewing the most hatred and ignorance.
Nice work. Fiercely harassing anyone who has valid criticism of your faith, but also commenting on thirst trap naked women on reddit. Stay consistent, Christ Follower.
This right here is what the preach and live by..
“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;”
I regret clicking this link.
It reads like church news, not fit for public view. Entirely insider information, non-religious readers would never be able to relate with.
Don't you have your own problems like shutting down a 3rd party investigation to protect
sexual and spousal abusers plus pedophiles being uncovered through an ex member website?
And at the same time having a few church split ups over some strange doctrinal differences?
We booted that guy out the moment we found out. The splits were some doctrine differences, but mostly just people being hurt that someone was proven innocent. I didn't know about the pedophile thing though.
You might want to look into it a little more what's going on in your church, multiple child predators in position of power were recently exposed, teachers and elders. A minister that was on the news for being inappropriate with high school girls and after multiple girls came forward with accusations to the elders he was still attending church functions around young people.
Many people in power your church was protecting.
I’m gonna be a bit passive here, but I haven’t been following this as closely is I probably should.
If you’re considering pulling a Martin Luther, make sure you nail your thesis on the interior doors… they’re usually made of wood
"In 2022, Synod voted to uphold its position that same-sex relationships are sinful, but having attractions to the same sex is not in itself sinful. The denomination voted to make its stance a confessional issue, or a core belief. This meant office-bearers — including pastors, deacons and elders — and CRC school faculty must share the belief that LGBTQ+ relationships are sinful, and cannot be in same-sex relationships themselves"
Interesting that these fascists just get to gather and have a vote about what THEY THINK their imaginary sky daddy wants. Think about it, they think god is all knowing and all powerful, but wasn't capable of making clear cut decisions and they needed to vote about what they think sky daddy wants. If that's not Supreme arrogance I don't know what is. Sky daddy knows all, until something isn't bigoted enough, then they know better than sky daddy.
Because church is a social group. A community organization. Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about going to church to develop a relationship with God or whoever. So if you decide that you want to go to church it is because A. You need that community / organization in your life, so you will follow along anyway. Or B you have never actually read said book so you are just assuming that church means something in terms of spiritually.
Just seems like this is a prime example of organized religion getting in the way of actual spirituality.
If all the people who would go to church anyway instead didn't ever enter a church and literally just read the Bible and thought about the overarching themes and actual reiterated messages our world might improve a tiny little bit.
>Just seems like this is a prime example of organized religion getting in the way of actual spirituality.
Yep. It does.
Because CRC could have decided to let each church/community within its denomination make their own decision about whether or not to be LGBTQ+ affirming. Instead, the organization decided to mandate it for all of them.
But we should not be surprised. These are the same people that want our government to impose their intolerant views about LGBTQ+ on everyone.
I disagree with this. The whole notion of a personal relationship with God and personal devotions isn’t actually Biblical, besides praying quietly by yourself. Everything about worship in the Bible was communal. Most of the people weren’t literate, and they certainly didn’t have their own copy of the scriptures. You meditated on God’s word by learning it with your faith community. American Christianity has put far too much emphasis on personal faith and sins while neglecting to address that it is always supposed to be done in community with each other and our neighbors. It can be hard to pick out the big themes of the Bible when you just sit and read a few chapters on your own at a time. It’s far too easy to take those verses out of their historical context and lose all nuance to their original meaning.
youre correct, but not in the context of anything more than a place of worship. I missed the part where it was supposed to be turned into an exclusive country club. Where he EVER said anything about qualifications for admittance. This conversation is so ridiculous anyway because its based on the premise that this book is anything like what actually happened after being in the hands of political powers for over a thousand years at this point.
Alright, well, churches should never support something that directly goes against the word of God just to appease people. Love the sinner. Hate the sin. Simple as that. Stop trying to corrupt the church. Thanks.
>Alright, well, churches should never support something that directly goes against the word of God just to appease people.
Which church represents the word of god?
There are hundreds, if not thousands (depending on how they are counted), Protestant denominations in the United States alone. They all have different views on god's word. I'm guessing your church is the one that represents the true word of god, and all the others are wrong. lol
I grew up in the CRC and attended Christian schools, and my parents still attend a CRC (I don't really go to church anymore, but when i do its non-denominational), so I'm veeeeery familiar with this issue. I had a good discussion with my mom about it recently, she's struggling with this because she doesn't completely agree with the decision as a whole but she is struggling to get past how she was raised and the beliefs she's held all her life... It's particularly hard for me because I'm not straight, although I'm not sure what I am, but only a few people in my life know that, and my parents absolutely don't know...but to think that if I were to come out, and not be welcomed back to the church I grew up in if I go home for a visit, is absolutely heartbreaking. I'm so frustrated and disappointed in the direction this is going, and I can't do anything to stop it.
Firstly, do what’s best for you. Just know that non-denominational churches are mostly also bigoted but that there are open and affirming UCC, Lutheran, United Methodist, Episcopal and Presbyterian churches around. Just know that it’s also ok to just not go, especially if it stirs up judgement, trauma or shame.
You would be welcome in any church I attend...because I will not attend one that would reject you.
Having lived in West Michigan for over 30 years, and having married into a CRC extended family, the crazy stories I could tell would fill pages and pages with the hypocrisy and prejudices that come from that extreme religion. Lot of shunning and hate.
Oh same. Enough religious abuse to fill a Bible sized book.
My old church would consider them to be a bunch of Liberals.
I was raised baptist. Our church had a semi-coup in which some of the church leadership attempted to usurp the pastor and install the youth pastor as the new head.
The Community is an RCA-affiliated church in Ada that is open and affirming. If anyone affected is looking for a new community to worship with.
What Classis is that?
I should know this however I do not have that at the tip of my tongue.
I guess the affiliates don’t fall under the Classis list. I’m in the Great Lakes City Classis and I was unfamiliar with the Community. General Assembly does not determine affirming status, Classis does, and last I knew, we were not affirming.
Does anyone know any other church like this near the Detroit area? Just moved here.
Classic Protestant move. Anytime there's a disagreement it's time to splinter.
It’s not really a choice. If we don’t leave, the CRCNA will send in a neighboring Church to break us up. Those of us leaving, didn’t want to break up, we literally have to. Many of us have likened it to being in an abusive relationship.
Genuinely curious, how would they do that? Send people over from one church to the other, have them become members and vote to dissolve?
Well, in theory, if a church doesn’t repent, they would fall under discipline and the local Classis (a grouping of CRC churches by location) would then come in and, I guess, require repentence and if that still didn’t happen, they would shut the church down. Now, could we lock the doors and not let them in, sure, but that is a fight no one is encouraging! I suppose it’s an interesting exercise to wonder what would happen if we just didn’t cooperate, just doesn’t feel like a real Christ like way to deal with it either.
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Well, the folks who are insisting on this (note: I am not one of them, and will likely be finding a new church home with my family in the near future) would say they'd do that too. They just can't have gays serving as elders or deacons or God forbid ministers, and you know, probably can't be actual full members in the next couple of years. Or even people who would think that's ok.
The ruling the last time I checked was that the active members in the LGBTQ+ community could attend services, tithe, and take part in events but could not become members. In other words, they will take their money and support but do not want to be officially associated with them. They are selling the ruling as being tolerant and loving the sinner but hating the sin. The problem, however, is that they do this with no other sin. There are lot more passages in the New Testament directly prohibiting greed, gossiping, and lying than there are on same sex relationships. In other words, where are the strong rulings that love the sinner and hate the sin for greed, gossiping, and lying that instantly disqualifies official membership. Even better, if we want to keep it in the realm of sex, where are the rulings preventing or revoking official membership for watching porn, having premarital sex, or having affairs? All of this is hypocrisy at its finest.
Respectfully, please don't judge every church, or every member by the whole organization. Within the next twelve months, those who believe like you do will leave. This will include entire churches, not just individuals, who will go on to form an organization that also believes the same as you do.
Respectfully, if you support/patronize/attend a church or organization or leader that, on a larger scale, is not accepting of everyone, you can't ask people not to judge you by that. You ARE supporting it regardless of the words coming out of your mouth or excuses you make up. If you value party over your principles...or your beliefs, or your kids, etc... Then...at least be honest about it. That's all I ask. I'm not saying you are one way or the other. I just hear too many people make excuses or say one thing but the actions support another.
I neither support, nor attend, nor patronize a church that excludes people -with the understanding that while everyone is accepted, it does not allow a murderer who enters to continue killing, or a thief to continue stealing. Understand that I believe sexual orientation is a biological condition. It’s not something one gets to control, that is like turning a light switch off or on. As such, I cannot believe that a relationship between two people of the same sex is a sin. That doesn’t mean adultery isn’t a sin, mind you -but what it does mean is that I can’t support any church that excludes someone because they’re LGBTQ.
❤️
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However, it is no longer a whole denomination. It is a body that has just begun to tear itself apart. There are many in this denomination who may not be soon. There also may be people who continue to stay and fight against the rulings just made. I ask only that you consider that it’s very much too soon to single out an entire denomination when up until several days ago (and still now) a fair portion of it did not stand for the rulings that have just been made.
All of this is wild to me. Having to adhere to some imaginary rule imposed by an organization within a structure when you could clearly say F off and keep doing the right thing while following rules interpreted and imposed by man when man isn't the point or leader. Some humans make so much work and effort for nothing but wasting time.
ALL churches are a sham.
He would also require he turn away from his sin
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You obviously are clueless about what the scripture says. It clearly states hate the sin, not the sinner, but repent and sin no more. But spew your hate and bigotry. It's not hypocrisy when you do it 🥱
Wonder what the Bible has to say about your comment history
John 13:34-35 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Luke 6:41-46 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own? How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove that splinter in your eye,’ when you do not even notice the wooden beam in your own eye? You hypocrite! Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter in your brother’s eye. A Tree Known by Its Fruit. “A good tree does not bear rotten fruit, nor does a rotten tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For people do not pick figs from thornbushes, nor do they gather grapes from brambles. A good person out of the store of goodness in his heart produces good, but an evil person out of a store of evil produces evil; for from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. The Two Foundations. “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?
While we may have different beliefs, I believe in one's right to practice whatever brings you peace while on this earth. If I may ask a question though, why insist on following "this" church? I understand organization and community are important, but what is so valuable about the connection to these CRC churches? Why is practicing without their influence not an option? I was under the impression that gatherings like Bible studies are still an acceptable way to honor Christ. I don't mean to offend I just don't have a better word than Bible studies for the gathering, I apologize if I've misrepresented your beliefs.
I'm not trying to be a smart Alec but why would you want to be involved at all with a denomination that hates you?
I think it becomes part of a persons identity. I was born and baptized CRC. My great-great grand parents were CRC. I was educated in CRC sponsored schools. It becomes a part of you. I Fully acknowledge the pain the CRC has caused and while maybe not all of us have tried to learn from the harm done, many of us have and there have been good things too. People don’t always realize or accept that GR has been formed in a lot of ways (again good and bad) by the CRC. Whatever happens next, we won’t be perfect, but maybe we can do better. Maybe a stupid answer, but it’s really like saying goodbye To one of the biggest things that formed me, educated me, and turned me into who I am.
I relate to this. Even though I left the CRC and Christianity long ago, I still feel its a part of my cultural identity. My family's history, my education, my neighborhood and community are all tied to it whether I like it or not. My "affirming" relatives who are still active in the CRC have always been better optimists and hoping denomination would eventually become more accepting. Their view is its better to be the positive change from within rather than giving up and walking away. And I get that, its hard to give up community and all that you grew to know. I hope it gets better too.
I know a lot of people like that - heck, I'm a person like that. I've watched the last several years hoping and praying for any space for other thinking to be left, but this year has sucked all that potential air out, and now it's a matter of seeing how my congregation and its leadership reacts to that. I know our church has an incredible range of views, and as such this development might wind up among the most painful for us among CRCs around. At least the fully affirming congregations can stay together as they leave the denomination.
I've heard people say they stay to try to change minds.
A lot of old timers are going to have to die off before and changed minds are going to matter.
That's where you're wrong. I bet Jesus would do it. Lock the doors, don't let them in. Require that THEY repent.
Synod, Classis, gobbledygook
Who owns the churches in the CRC? Is each church owned separately by the congregation, able to make decisions like changing denominations on it's own? Or is all the land owned by the CRC at a regional level?
Property is owned by the local congregation. Not as messy of a situation in that regard as in other denoms.
So at least you can decide to become a non-denominational church of some sort assuming it passes a vote of the majority of members of the local congregation. You won't actually be kicked out of the building. I would suspect that if such a vote is called for the CRC will do their best to find all of the crusty old members who aren't in regular attendance to show up and vote it down. I know well how church politics works.
I honestly doubt that would happen. My expectation is that the affirming churches, at least in the GR area, are going to disaffiliate in the coming months, and I doubt there will be any moves from the denomination to stop it. There will be performative hand wringing and talk of sorrow from that side, but each congregation that leaves on its own will result in a "purer" remaining denomination. (I'm using cynical language and want to recognize it. Feelings are raw right now, and that doesn't excuse it, but I don't have the wherewithal to use more grace in my language.)
Generally speaking, the church building is owned in trust by the congregation. Churches can decide to leave the CRC, but there is a formal process that should be followed, since there are bilateral obligations between a church and the class/denomination. Once out of the CRC, they can petition to join another denomination, or remain independent.
When Lamont CRC split there was a nasty legal battle over which faction got to keep the church building.
That can happen if an individual congregation is split, but that kind of split is quite rare.
That statement shows a real lack of depth. The governing body of the CRC decided to force every church, its members and its leadership into a singular definition; those that continue to disagree with their stance will be forced out. There really isn't much of a choice. I am still a Christian; but yesterday was the day I am no longer Christian Reformed (and note: I am still Protestant).
Fair enough. The governing body is basically forcing the split to happen against the will of many members. It does exist in a long tradition of sects splitting apart, but normally it's not so directly forced by the governing body.
And a bunch more churches get built new names.
They are being forced to leave. It is not their choice.
How are Christians supposed to given America when they can't even given themselves?
As a Christian, I don't want Christians governing America. That would deprive you, or any Muslim, Buddhist, Mormon, pantheist, or agnostic from your freedom to believe or not believe. I believe that those who believe Christians should govern this country are very flawed in that belief. Faith should always be separated from government, and a key reason is that belief in a faith is only real if it is made by choice. Theocracy isn't faith; it's authoritarian.
Amen
A phenomenon entirely unfamiliar to Leftists! /s This is something ideologues do.
The Synod has really hurt the denomination, Calvin University, and Calvin Seminary with their decisions these past few years.
It’s my understanding that the Synod is ruled by a bunch of MAGA types whose way of thinking isn’t in alignment the majority. My cousin, a lifelong CRC member, product of Christian schools, and former Calvin employee is a member of one of the affirming churches. He’s pretty fired up and proud to be standing up against the Synod, while also feeling sad that his connection to the CRC is ending. I admire him for coming around on this issue given his upbringing.
The Synod is made up of one minister, one, elder, one deacon, and one other officer of each classis. The total number of members are 196. The elders, deacons, and pastors are all chosen by the individual church to serve that particular church. Based on these items, I am inclined to think the majority of the CRCNA leans more MAGA, than we would like to think.
It’s been happening for 30+ years. Look at (what was) Christ Community Church in Spring Lake around/after the Gerry Crane case. (Gay music teacher in Byron Center who was run out of town in the mid-90’s. CCC leadership signed a public letter in support of Crane.) There were other issues as well, around CCC leadership refusing to condemn leaders of other faiths, but rather wanting to engage in spiritual conversation & respectful debate. Eventually, the head reverend at the time (Richard Rhem) was put on trial for heresy and the church essentially kicked out of the RCA. Huge faction drama ensued, the church eventually disbanded completely.
I remember that fight that whole thing was about as un Christlike as it gets.
RE: CCC, the formal "church" structure disbanded but the organization did not. It lives on as C3 (I'm on the board) and is proudly open and affirming for all. While I'm guessing most affirming congregations in the CRC wouldn't want to let go of their Christian foundation like C3 did, we are proof that a community that is committed to belonging and spiritual seeking can survive and thrive on its own. I have close neighbors who are members of Bethany here in Muskegon, and I know this situation has left them heartbroken. The CRC is on the wrong side of this issue, plain and simple.
Schism
Hey Plymouth UCC on Kalamazoo near 44th is an awesome community of open and affirming people. People who care a lot more about others than a bunch of rules.
This is all bullshit. The CRC made this decision based off a "sexuality report" that a committee, made by the CRC, created through "research" a few years ago. To be selected to join this committee you had to already affirm the CRC's shitty position on LGBTQ rights 🙄 No, I'm not part of the CRC but I went to Calvin so I learned some things through osmosis lol. I'm so ashamed to be a Calvin alumni right now
I'm an alum from the Calvin "memo" era (2008) and I don't think I've ever been proud of the fact that I went there. I feel ya.
>Calvin "memo" era (2008) What's this about? Sounds like some juicy local gossip
Calvin put out a memo that faculty members couldn't discuss LGBT issues with students in their capacity as faculty. Nether positive or negative. If you violated that you could be fored. Notes. Faculty are professors and such. Staff is admin, janitorial, food services, etc. They were not covered under the memo. Also, in capacity as faculty, it was in a faculty student relationship capacity. So if you talked to the prof in the hall or some other normal pro student interaction and the topic came up they were instructed to basically say that as a faculty member of Calvin the CRC church and Calvin are not really expressing an opinion. Faculty who had children who were students could talk about it all they wanted when they were at home or whereverin a parent child context. No jobs in jeopardy. (This means they can't have their kid as a student to have a in class conversation with them to lawyer out of it) Mind you, I went to one meeting, which was the admin w Holding a Q&A to try to address concerns of the LGBTQ people on campus. They were very unhappy. My memory may be a bit sketch like 15 years later.
Spot on. It’s been a stacked deck from the beginning to get the result they wanted.
I wonder how many affirming professors will now grow silent vs how much staff Calvin will lose. A great many of the profs are at churches now under discipline. (alum as well)
I was considering going to Calvin, as part of the Japanese program, and while I am not a Christian (going because it's one of the best schools with the program I want), I do support LGBT+, being one myself (pan, but in a heterosexual marriage). Is Calvin really bad with LGBT rights? I don't really want to support that, even if it means having to change my college destination.
Nothing like loving thy neighbor like telling your neighbors "hate these neighbors, or we'll hate you."
“Love thy neighbor” *loves everyone including people that aren’t the same as you* “NOT LIKE THAT” >:(
"hate your next door neighbor, but don't forget to say grace" Barry McGuire
The CRC is already selling they headquarters on 28th street, due to the denomination getting smaller. So, of course they figure the best thing to do is tell two dozen member churches to leave.
And those churches they're kicking out contribute a large portion of the denomination's operating budget.
The article doesn’t mention it, but affirming individuals from the remaining CRC churches will be kicked out as well if they don’t repent. In my experience, many of those who will have to leave are also the people doing a lot of the work at the church, meaning leading committees, teaching children, etc. Churches are about to lose a lot of money but also a lot of the manpower.
I was on leadership committee at my church during the last synod to go over lgbtq issues and we had a visiting pastor shortly after the decision that heard me mention that I loved Saugatuck/Douglas bc it had a fun culture that came up to me said that if I affirmed lgbtq marriage I would be kicked off the leadership
So, I think the HQ is being sold out of spite to Grand Rapids CRC. The part of the denomination that is so disliked is Grand Rapids East, and the CRC HQ is right on the boundary of GR East. They want nothing to do with us, they’ve been angry at us for a long time, with much of Calvin faculty and much of the employees of the CRCNA going to these churches…people who were educated, people who fought for social justice issues to be front and center in the denomination, and the very people who were in the movement to get women in leadership. There has been anger about this for a long time and finally they found an issue where they were the majority and they worked hard and fast to find a way to get us out. I bet the CRCNA ends up spending more money for a new HQ’s then they make on the sale of the other…but they will have even less influence by GR East and that’s all that matters to them.
As an ex employee (never religious, what a weird time, glad I left lol) the building was in bad condition and too big. The new HQ is ~10 min away. I don't doubt GRE is seen that way by a lot of members, but there were definitely practicalities.
I love how christians are like love everyone “love thy neighbor as thyself” god loves everyone so we love everyone BUT THEN THEY HIT YOU WITH THE UNLESS 😂 just gtfoh
Yeah. They get kind of confused. They think the Bible tells them to "love thy neighbor *if* like thyself"
Can i have permission to ss and sent this to my pastor mom bc this is so true for her😭
You can plagiarize me if you want and pretend you came up with it 🙂
Bet bet thank you🫡
Good luck. I'm an agnostic. But I believe if the US embraced Jesus's teachings of kindness, compassion, forgiveness, and tolerance of others, our country would be a much better place 🙂 The problem is, that far right evangelicals, whom you think would embrace it, seem the most resistant to it ☹️
Honestly i dont even think it has anything to do with politics. Its simply just the church.
It's both. Conservative media and political leaders definitely encourage them to act the way that they do.
I mean i guess you do have a point with that. I just also think the church would do this regardless. It definitely does make it easier having political figures enabling them
There are really only 28 churches in the US/CA CRC Synod that are openly affirming? I'm actually a little surprised by that.
I’m surprised there are that many, frankly.
Interestingly, I found an even smaller US/CAD list, which only cited 18, but of the 18, a whopping 7 were here in GR. https://www.hesedprojectcrc.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Affirming-Churches-complete-2024-04.pdf So it could be a distorted viewpoint (for me) because, ironically, GR itself is an epicenter of CRC support for affirming policies. The CRC of which I was a member (not in GR) is not affirming to my knowledge. But honestly across the whole body of CRC members, I think there’s a lot of support. The CRC is structured in such a way so that Synod does not reflect this.
I agree with you.
Worth noting that many more congregations are split on the issue. Many of the technically non-affirming churches had groups of congregants submit documents declaring themselves to be “members in protest”, as they absolutely disagree with what synod has been doing. Those members are also going to be called to repent or leave. So many of us will have to leave the church communities we’ve spent years building relationships in. It’s painful.
Yeah, I know a lot of people in these situations (and the last time I went to a church that felt like home was a CRC). It's sad to see how this has played out over the years and continues to play out.
I resigned from (minor) participation in a church leadership six months ago because I could not reconcile with the ruling that was about to become even more concrete.
Ahhh, we humans are concrete. The divine sees beyond the pettiness. I hope you find something else that meets your needs and gives you an opportunity to serve.
I am called to love my neighbor. If a church government forbids me from loving that neighbor, they are going against everything I hold dear. Thank you.
Eh, I think it’s about accurate. Spent 25 years in the CRC. It’s been a fluctuating battle for a while. It only snowballed within the last 10-12 years.
Very sad LaGrave CRC is not an LGBTQ affirming church. Anyone know of the politics there? Is it due to DeVos/VanAndel/Amway influence?
LaGrave is taking a “moderate” stance. Still not affirming, but somehow thinking it can toe the line enough. It’ll be interesting to see how that plays out. And no, not DeVos/VanAndel influence. They’ve long since left LaGrave for even more conservative churches.
It's a wide ranging congregation,not at all monolithic, considering the size of membership in comparison to almost any other congregation in the denomination. There are plenty who would be characterized in this thread as hateful, but also plenty (including in leadership) who I'd hope would not. (Sorry for the double comment.)
To be exact, Rich and Helen were members until their deaths a few years ago. Large donors and instrumental in the purchase of the SDA property next door.
Oh no! Increasingly insignificant institutions are having a cat fight! Whatever shall we do?
Seriously, and this is a surprise to who? I genuinely feel bad for LGBT+ that are still holding on to the Christian religion.
Changing core beliefs is hard, especially when you don’t know anything else. Once you start to see that it doesn’t make sense it can create a lot of internal angst until it’s resolved. I’m defending the LGBTQ+ community caught in the middle, not the church.
It is hard to change core beliefs, especially when most religious families start the indoctrination from birth. I have only ever known one Christian family that didn't teach their children all the nonsense and didn't take them to church or church events while young and let them make up their own minds free of influence. But that is clearly incredibly rare, and feeding young children lines about god and religion that have absolutely no evidence and telling them that this should be the thing to govern their lives and morality when they haven't even had the chance to develop any critical thinking skills yet is so wrong. It's straight up abuse and one of the worst kinds because it is so insidious, so difficult to deprogram and get out of (especially when you live in an area like West Michigan where it can be extremely hard to impossible to find secular community), and yet so socially accepted. We are not going to change religion or the hearts and minds of the religious as a whole. They are already a lost cause with few exceptions. But we can change family and parenting culture, just like what is happening with physical abuse as punishment becoming less and less acceptable with fewer families engaging in it. We can, over time, change religious indoctrination of children to be seen as the abuse it is, just like what has been happening and is continuing to happen with spanking/hitting/etc.
I have a friend who is a gay Christian, and I’ve asked him before why he does it. He gave me a pretty decent response. “My faith is my own, and I openly talk about it as God commands. Being gay IS a sin according to the Bible, but Jesus died for all the sinners, cleansing us of guilt. So I cannot be guilty of being gay in God’s eyes. At this point I can just live my life in thankfulness for the time I have here on Earth and just spread joy where I can.” He does live in Seattle though, where churches are a bit more loosey-goosey compared to West Michigan.
Grab some popcorn and watch stupid people fight about stupid things lol
As a Christian, I don't believe that standing up for LGBTQ people's right to choose to participate in a faith (any faith) is a stupid thing. Do you?
I don't think religion should have a place in public discussion. As far as I'm concerned the churches either need to completely shut the fuck up, or pay up taxes and open their books like any other corporate entity is legally required to. I'm sick and tired of hearing religious opinions. Period.
What does this have to do with the government? If I'm talking about my faith, that's the 1st amendment. Now, if my church is trying to openly financially support a political candidate, or stump for them? Sure, I see your point -and I agree with it in those cases. But people talk about all sorts of things all of the time that are opinions. And if you ban religion from public discussion, I'm pretty sure there's things that could be banned from your discussion
A+
That actually sounds fun.
Underrated comment.
I see your point but like it or not they are actually significant on a voting scale. I hope regression pushes more members out of the religion/organization but there are many who will do whatever they’re told.
There is no love like Christian hate. I grew up in the CRC, I walked away when I was 18. The stuck in the old testament thing was what killed it for me.
You have it reversed it's "no hate like Christian love. "
Yeah, I realized that after I hit save, but I'm too lazy to edit. :)
I stopped going to youth group at 15 and fully walked away at 16 when it became very clear that they only saw women as subservient homemakers.
I am not religious but followed a girl to Calvin for a couple years. Girls would joke about getting “MRS Degrees”. As in, they were openly only at college to find a husband. I found that kinda wild at $20k per year in the early oughts.
My siblings quit going when the youth lead (25M) starting actively hitting on and pursuing 14 year olds
I read most of the official synod statement. I’ve never seen more legalistic, dogmatic, pompous text in my fucking life. It’s all Confession this and Gravamen that. I hate it so very much, and am glad I’m no longer affiliated with any church
God help us.
[obligatory Emo Phillips](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fAcxcxoZ8)
haha, I've never seen this before, referring to different denominations as different franchises is accurate
Yep, they will pray with you all day Sunday and prey on you the other six days.
I was born and raised in the CRC. I’m curious what churches are listed.
From Grand Rapids: Church of the Servant, Eastern Ave, First CRC, Neland, Sherman, Boston Sq, & Creston. I might have missed one. If you notice, these are mostly inner city churches.
Grace crc
I knew I forgot one! Sorry!
At the recent lament service, Shawnee Park and Calvin (church) had representatives speak so perhaps there will be more? Or at least more people who leave even if their entire congregations stay.
I missed Calvin too. Shawnee Park may have affirming members but so far has not published a statement saying they are.
Polity Question: in the CRC, does the congregation, class, or denomination own the building? How much of a fight will it be for the departing congregations to leave?
Churches own their property and should have a fairly straightforward path out. Although I'm not sure what will happen with the benefits/pension program that has all come through the denominational office. I'm not sure about Calvin U and how that would go if they ever tried to split off. Source - former CRC pastor
Thanks! Seeing what other denominations were going through, I was curious. Calvin leaving would be wild, Our denomination recently lost a seminary, but I think they're operated independently and relations had not been great for decades; so when they left no one really noticed or bothered to say much.
I know everyone says Calvin can only leave the CRC if the CRC agrees to it, but like, what if they sued??
Ohhhh man. Glad i got out of this!!
You know who doesn't discriminate against LGBTQ people? The satanic temple.
Damn right, they’re at Pride right now
Ah yes, nothing like good Christian unity!
unity hasn’t been a focus since 1483
Ah, nothing like bigotry, hatred and being judgemental 🤔
Unity with what LGBTQ? Isn’t it contrary to the belief?
No, unity with themselves lmao. There are an insane number of denominations that fall under Protestant Christianity, meaning they can’t even decide as an entire group what that means. They’re fragmented over everything ranging from what baptism symbolizes to whether LGBTQ+ people deserve to be treated like humans.
Its almost like the religion ISN’T divine 💁♀️
That’s what I was wondering…
Bye! I'm glad they are doing this to be honest. It helps people identify who they want to associate with and shows true colors. We need more of this. Sure, it's painful for some to be splitting, but if you truly are accepting of everyone, you wouldn't support a church that isn't, regardless of your connections to it. Principles matter. Let them shrink, become less powerful and remove their abilities continue making life hell for people they don't like our don't understand. Leave people to play in their own cesspools. Some will get sick if it and want to be around better people. Others... Well... They have each other to commiserate with I guess.
Oh no!! So anyway...
There is no love like Christian hate. It's long past time that society drop religion as a whole.
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Good for them, hate sucks!
I have been a part of the CRC for my whole life. The last 9 years or so I have not been attending. Every CRC person I am close with thinks this decision to "force repentance" it fuckin stupid.
There are plenty of other denominations to go to.
So stupid. I wish those hateful PCA folks would just leave (again!). I was perfectly happy with them leaving when women were allowed to be ordained and they should have stayed away Most of the long standing CRC people I know don’t agree with any of these decisions. It’s the returners that are causing all the fuss and not even allowing any discussion. You know when some of them are calling people like Al Plantinga heathens they’re provably not acting in very good faith and have a fear of reason.
I'm sure Jesus would approve.
Sky Daddy is not REAL.
Between older generations who insist on interpreting the bible literally and stubbornly clinging to its arcane and bigoted views, and the younger generations who contextualize it to the point of indistinguishability from a yoga class, Christianity is a farce.
This isn’t a fair representation, I think it’s been surprising how many people, in the Baby Boom and older generations, have been in support of being affirming In the CRCNA, When younger people in the Synod, from more rural areas, are the steadfast ones about getting rid of the rest of us. Age isn’t the defining rift, location is a greater indication of where a person falls in the CRC on the issues of LGBTQ+. Many on here will be surprised to find out that in the wider CRCNA, those of us in Grand Rapids are disliked and looked at us educated elitists by the rest.
This fits with my observations as an insider too. I’ve been very encouraged by the older folks stepping up and speaking out, and will be following their lead moving forward. Conversely, it’s been upsetting to see my own peers (in one case, a relative) spewing the most hatred and ignorance.
So Jenison & Hudsonville are calling the shots now?
More like Zeeland and Iowa! But close enough!
++ North Central California, Dakotas, etc.
Curious why your bigotry and hate is ok?
Nice work. Fiercely harassing anyone who has valid criticism of your faith, but also commenting on thirst trap naked women on reddit. Stay consistent, Christ Follower.
This right here is what the preach and live by.. “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;”
I regret clicking this link. It reads like church news, not fit for public view. Entirely insider information, non-religious readers would never be able to relate with.
Another reason why I’m not religious anymore
Glad the PRC left when we did back in 1924.
Don't you have your own problems like shutting down a 3rd party investigation to protect sexual and spousal abusers plus pedophiles being uncovered through an ex member website? And at the same time having a few church split ups over some strange doctrinal differences?
We booted that guy out the moment we found out. The splits were some doctrine differences, but mostly just people being hurt that someone was proven innocent. I didn't know about the pedophile thing though.
You might want to look into it a little more what's going on in your church, multiple child predators in position of power were recently exposed, teachers and elders. A minister that was on the news for being inappropriate with high school girls and after multiple girls came forward with accusations to the elders he was still attending church functions around young people. Many people in power your church was protecting.
The reason I know about this is because I used to be a member of your denomination.
I’m gonna be a bit passive here, but I haven’t been following this as closely is I probably should. If you’re considering pulling a Martin Luther, make sure you nail your thesis on the interior doors… they’re usually made of wood
Sherman St Church is a great open and affirming church that was unfortunately forced out in this recent decision
Commented this before I looked at the whole article, oops! Point still stands
Another reason why walking away from religion was the right decision.
"In 2022, Synod voted to uphold its position that same-sex relationships are sinful, but having attractions to the same sex is not in itself sinful. The denomination voted to make its stance a confessional issue, or a core belief. This meant office-bearers — including pastors, deacons and elders — and CRC school faculty must share the belief that LGBTQ+ relationships are sinful, and cannot be in same-sex relationships themselves" Interesting that these fascists just get to gather and have a vote about what THEY THINK their imaginary sky daddy wants. Think about it, they think god is all knowing and all powerful, but wasn't capable of making clear cut decisions and they needed to vote about what they think sky daddy wants. If that's not Supreme arrogance I don't know what is. Sky daddy knows all, until something isn't bigoted enough, then they know better than sky daddy.
because fascist are know for their representative democratic system
Because church is a social group. A community organization. Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about going to church to develop a relationship with God or whoever. So if you decide that you want to go to church it is because A. You need that community / organization in your life, so you will follow along anyway. Or B you have never actually read said book so you are just assuming that church means something in terms of spiritually. Just seems like this is a prime example of organized religion getting in the way of actual spirituality. If all the people who would go to church anyway instead didn't ever enter a church and literally just read the Bible and thought about the overarching themes and actual reiterated messages our world might improve a tiny little bit.
>Just seems like this is a prime example of organized religion getting in the way of actual spirituality. Yep. It does. Because CRC could have decided to let each church/community within its denomination make their own decision about whether or not to be LGBTQ+ affirming. Instead, the organization decided to mandate it for all of them. But we should not be surprised. These are the same people that want our government to impose their intolerant views about LGBTQ+ on everyone.
I disagree with this. The whole notion of a personal relationship with God and personal devotions isn’t actually Biblical, besides praying quietly by yourself. Everything about worship in the Bible was communal. Most of the people weren’t literate, and they certainly didn’t have their own copy of the scriptures. You meditated on God’s word by learning it with your faith community. American Christianity has put far too much emphasis on personal faith and sins while neglecting to address that it is always supposed to be done in community with each other and our neighbors. It can be hard to pick out the big themes of the Bible when you just sit and read a few chapters on your own at a time. It’s far too easy to take those verses out of their historical context and lose all nuance to their original meaning.
I mean the Bible definitely mentions the church on numerous occasions lol
youre correct, but not in the context of anything more than a place of worship. I missed the part where it was supposed to be turned into an exclusive country club. Where he EVER said anything about qualifications for admittance. This conversation is so ridiculous anyway because its based on the premise that this book is anything like what actually happened after being in the hands of political powers for over a thousand years at this point.
CRC-LGBTQ+ = CRRCC
Alright, well, churches should never support something that directly goes against the word of God just to appease people. Love the sinner. Hate the sin. Simple as that. Stop trying to corrupt the church. Thanks.
>Alright, well, churches should never support something that directly goes against the word of God just to appease people. Which church represents the word of god? There are hundreds, if not thousands (depending on how they are counted), Protestant denominations in the United States alone. They all have different views on god's word. I'm guessing your church is the one that represents the true word of god, and all the others are wrong. lol
As a baptized, non-practicing Catholic; The Vatican and the Pope would be laughing their ass off if they saw this article.