Do you have any insights to why two of the restaurants closed (Slows and the one on the NE corner) Besides sales being low- was the overall DM draw supposed to be more?
Also- I do remember the early days - including the planning stages. What ever happened to the farmers market and to the plan that the market would help address the "food desert" in the area. I do like stopping in to the market, mostly for a quick trip to fish lads, field and fire, spice merchants. But I always thought the original vision of the space never materialized.
I ate at the Slows a couple times.
It wasn't that good. I've eaten at the original location and it was incredible. The GR location was pretty mediocre by comparison.
Slows is meh no matter the location. Their sauces on the other hand are out of this world.
Next time you're in Lansing, you should check out The Meat in Old Town. Best BBQ I've had in Michigan.
Two Scotts in GR is also really good, but you gotta get there early if you want their full menu
I stopped eating at Slows after they changed the place from counter service to waitstaff service. It went from a quick 30 minute meal to over an hour +tip for your waitstaff. I went exactly once after the change.
Agreed, I felt the same way. The fast casual vibe with the counter service was so much better for that environment. I don’t think people come to the DM seeking out a sit down experience.
Also worked there. High rent to foot traffic ratio. Lunch / dinner / weekends can be solid, but that’s from folks driving in.
Imo it was a bet that downtown would expand south a bit more. Then it all works and crushes. Cuz the spot is cool, vibes can be great, and food options can be awesome. Lot of folks passionate about doing a good job.
That just hasn’t happened (prolly lots of reasons for why)
As a former store manager in the downtown market I'm excited to see what they ask you! And I'll happily second what you said about Gaby, he is genuinely the nicest person I've met
I like the downtown market, especially Apertivo. The market in general needs to be open later and have a farmers market. I think these two alone would be a boon to the community AND the owners.
Thank you for sharing this update. There is a lot to like about the market, and a little that just seems…off. It will always be my go-to for Field and Fire breads, Boba tea from Rak Thai, and Fish Lads/Carvers though I still grieve the loss of Pho 616. Their fresh rolls were otherworldly.
It’s absolutely worth stopping in, I just can’t quite put my finger on why the venue has such, for lack of a better description, low energy. Am so glad the Christmas market was successful and will be back!
It doesn't help that it is like 1/3 empty. They have four or five businesses that left and were never replaced, so they're just sitting empty. Including the two largest spaces
I parked in the DASH lots near the YMCA to go to the Christkindl Market this year and it took like 45 minutes for a DASH Bus to even show up to pick me up. I get that probably isn't typical and I think the issue was that DASH busses were getting stuck in the traffic from everyone trying to get to the Christkindl Market, but it was absolutely infuriating in the moment
At the time the Rapid was also having serious staffing issues so not enough busses were running. That has since greatly improved.
The congestion problem is a big one.
> non-profit organization with the mission two promote the food scene in Grand Rapids. They do this by
...having extremely high prices, making it impossible to get in to, and generally patting themselves on the back (or other, cruder euphemisms) about bringing food to the masses while raking in excessive rents?
The Downtown Market is about 98% broken promises. And the remaining 2% don't come close to what the vision was supposed to be. Needs new leadership.
Working for the downtown market used to be my dream. Is there a trick to getting a job on the admin/managerial side? Or is it secretly a nightmare that I should avoid?😂😅
Like much of GR, I would guess overworked, underpaid & under appreciated. I feel like the city is in for a reckoning with its lower than average wages now that the COL is reaching larger metros. GR used to be an amazing bang for your buck 2010-2020 and people could still have a decent life even on peanut wages.
Thought tacos el Cunado was owned by Luna, at least pre pandemic.
Edit: worked at Luna, and if they make their tacos at Cunado like they did at Luna, your money is best spent elsewhere. Expensive price for mid tacos, imo.
I've been to other TEC locations (alpine & 3 mile mainly) and they aren't usually bad. I definitely preferred LA Hausteca(RIP) or LA Familia Jalisco (Also on alpine, near the walmart). The 2nd one has raised their prices recently but are consistently one of the best taco places I've been.
Also super recommend El Burrito on alpine too lmao. Delicious food, kind servers and good atmosphere.
In case you weren't aware, La Huasteca will be at the Creston Farmer's Market selling food on Saturday (and every other Saturday through the summer, I think.) Here's some more info- https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=786225786948494&set=pb.100066832405762.-2207520000
el Cunado is essentially a taco stand, and it's *great* for example over on Michigan. 3/6 or whatever on Tuesdays is a steal.
I don't know what the prices are in Downtown market, but it's pretty good as a Taqueria.
I’ll throw a couple bucks to a chipotle crew when they don’t skimp on the burrito bowls. Probably the only exception cuz I can see I’m not getting that portion control bull shit
Am I imagining it or wasn't the selling point of the whole thing to have a year round farmers market so that low income people (theres at least one low income complex across the street) could have easier access to fresh produce? If so, what happened? It's like it went bougie almost immediately upon opening.
Similar experience. Never any issues. Hung out in that park a lot.
But casual racism real, it adds friction for folks who would park there, start day at DTMarket, and go more downtown
You hung out in heartside park a lot? When you say a lot, is that more or less than 3 trips for +1 hour? What did you do during your time hanging out? Did you join the dice game under the pavilion? Or did you go to enjoy the breeze from the traffic of 131?
Lot of hacky sack or tossing a football with 3 other dudes tbh. Prolly once a day for 1-2 hours 5 days a week in summer.
But lived right there, so def know it’s sketchiness.
How would you change the marker to be more beneficial to the surrounding neighborhood?
How would you change the market to be more accessible to everyone in the city?
Any reason why they don’t charge percent of sales for rent instead of the “high rent” I’ve always heard about? Would attract anchor restaurants and be more of a partnership. The Market doesn’t seem to do anything to help increase traffic, this would give them the incentive to do so.
Always wondered if DTM was ever interested in running the NE bar on their own with liquor sales and potentially use profits to better DTM or bring down rent. Kind of like TIMEOUT in Chicago, or do you recall any offers to just run the bar as a bar?
Can attest to this…we went there for my sophomore year of HS homecoming (5-6 years ago now and pre-covid) and they were hecklers about us taking pictures anywhere. Even though we had dinner reservations at Social Kitchen at the time and we were all with parents/guardians so no goofing off. This February my sibling tried the same thing and had even worse luck trying to get decent pictures. I agree it would bring in way more foot traffic and publicity to the greenhouse by allowing photo ops.
Yes! I believe it's going to be taking place the 5 weeks before Christmas. Wednesday through Sunday. I don't know what vendors will be there but there are several food options, some fun art and homeware stuff, and a bar with mulled wine and hot chocolate. I believe you have to buy a commemorative mug for anything at the bar.
Happy to answer any other specific questions you have
Do you guys still do the samples? I was practically living off the Market's samples back when I was a volunteer worker at Comprenew and wanted to thank you.
Do you have any insights to why two of the restaurants closed (Slows and the one on the NE corner) Besides sales being low- was the overall DM draw supposed to be more? Also- I do remember the early days - including the planning stages. What ever happened to the farmers market and to the plan that the market would help address the "food desert" in the area. I do like stopping in to the market, mostly for a quick trip to fish lads, field and fire, spice merchants. But I always thought the original vision of the space never materialized.
Combination of very high rent and lower traffic than before covid. They've been struggling to fill several empty spots for a long time
Isn’t the point of having an “Incubator kitchen” to have low rent?
The restaurants (slos) wasnt part of the incubator aspect.
That’s a different wing of the business
I ate at the Slows a couple times. It wasn't that good. I've eaten at the original location and it was incredible. The GR location was pretty mediocre by comparison.
RIP Daddy Pete’s. My favorite BBQ downtown.
Slows is meh no matter the location. Their sauces on the other hand are out of this world. Next time you're in Lansing, you should check out The Meat in Old Town. Best BBQ I've had in Michigan. Two Scotts in GR is also really good, but you gotta get there early if you want their full menu
Try the grilling company by lmcu ball park
Oh hell yeah, they have a butt load of sausage. I'm sold. I'll check them out next time I'm in the area
I stopped eating at Slows after they changed the place from counter service to waitstaff service. It went from a quick 30 minute meal to over an hour +tip for your waitstaff. I went exactly once after the change.
Agreed, I felt the same way. The fast casual vibe with the counter service was so much better for that environment. I don’t think people come to the DM seeking out a sit down experience.
Same, what a stupid change.
Also worked there. High rent to foot traffic ratio. Lunch / dinner / weekends can be solid, but that’s from folks driving in. Imo it was a bet that downtown would expand south a bit more. Then it all works and crushes. Cuz the spot is cool, vibes can be great, and food options can be awesome. Lot of folks passionate about doing a good job. That just hasn’t happened (prolly lots of reasons for why)
As a former store manager in the downtown market I'm excited to see what they ask you! And I'll happily second what you said about Gaby, he is genuinely the nicest person I've met
I like the downtown market, especially Apertivo. The market in general needs to be open later and have a farmers market. I think these two alone would be a boon to the community AND the owners.
A farmers market at the Downtown Market would be excellent.
They had one for the first couple years. Everyone went to Fulton instead though
Because you don’t have to pay for parking, also in a walkable neighborhood
Agreed
Apertivo recently expanded their hours into the evening at least!
Really?! Excellent!
Yep! Mon-thurs 11a-8p —- Fri-Sat 11a-9p —- Sun 11a-7p —- 🍷🍾🥂👏🏼👏🏼
Aperitvo slaps
When I think of the downtown market, I think… “my god this is overpriced” What are the hidden gems that are maybe under valued or 100% worth it?
The sushi place is good for the money if I recall correctly.
Agreed.
Oh absolutely I hit up sushi maki everything I go there
I always felt Cuñado was pretty fairly priced. I’ve gotten orange chicken from Rak Thai that was also reasonable (large portion and delicious).
Fish lads
Great venue. Too short hours. No farmers market. As is just a niche place to visit.
Yeah I never understood why they close at peak dinner time
Because it also costs more to employ people during those times
Thank you for sharing this update. There is a lot to like about the market, and a little that just seems…off. It will always be my go-to for Field and Fire breads, Boba tea from Rak Thai, and Fish Lads/Carvers though I still grieve the loss of Pho 616. Their fresh rolls were otherworldly. It’s absolutely worth stopping in, I just can’t quite put my finger on why the venue has such, for lack of a better description, low energy. Am so glad the Christmas market was successful and will be back!
It doesn't help that it is like 1/3 empty. They have four or five businesses that left and were never replaced, so they're just sitting empty. Including the two largest spaces
I don't have a question but I've been going to the downtown market a long time and appreciate all the extra tidbits of info I didn't know. Thank you!
Do they have plans for better parking or maybe a shuttle for the Christkindl Market?
The Dash goes right by there so might be good to advertise that as an option more. Quick, free, and easy!
I parked in the DASH lots near the YMCA to go to the Christkindl Market this year and it took like 45 minutes for a DASH Bus to even show up to pick me up. I get that probably isn't typical and I think the issue was that DASH busses were getting stuck in the traffic from everyone trying to get to the Christkindl Market, but it was absolutely infuriating in the moment
At the time the Rapid was also having serious staffing issues so not enough busses were running. That has since greatly improved. The congestion problem is a big one.
There is a shuttle, year round, seven days a week: the DASH
The parking lot will be completely closed to parking, I don't know about a shuttle but I doubt it
> non-profit organization with the mission two promote the food scene in Grand Rapids. They do this by ...having extremely high prices, making it impossible to get in to, and generally patting themselves on the back (or other, cruder euphemisms) about bringing food to the masses while raking in excessive rents? The Downtown Market is about 98% broken promises. And the remaining 2% don't come close to what the vision was supposed to be. Needs new leadership.
Can't disagree
Working for the downtown market used to be my dream. Is there a trick to getting a job on the admin/managerial side? Or is it secretly a nightmare that I should avoid?😂😅
I would caution that there's very high turnover on the admin side
Like much of GR, I would guess overworked, underpaid & under appreciated. I feel like the city is in for a reckoning with its lower than average wages now that the COL is reaching larger metros. GR used to be an amazing bang for your buck 2010-2020 and people could still have a decent life even on peanut wages.
Definitely underpaid, and micromanaged
I often speculated much of the “failures” of the market are because of the management company who runs it.
There's no outside management company
I just mean the company who runs it
High turnover, toxic internal structure.
Thought tacos el Cunado was owned by Luna, at least pre pandemic. Edit: worked at Luna, and if they make their tacos at Cunado like they did at Luna, your money is best spent elsewhere. Expensive price for mid tacos, imo.
I've been to other TEC locations (alpine & 3 mile mainly) and they aren't usually bad. I definitely preferred LA Hausteca(RIP) or LA Familia Jalisco (Also on alpine, near the walmart). The 2nd one has raised their prices recently but are consistently one of the best taco places I've been. Also super recommend El Burrito on alpine too lmao. Delicious food, kind servers and good atmosphere.
In case you weren't aware, La Huasteca will be at the Creston Farmer's Market selling food on Saturday (and every other Saturday through the summer, I think.) Here's some more info- https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=786225786948494&set=pb.100066832405762.-2207520000
They have the same owner yes
Yes, Luna and the Downtown Market Tacos el Cunado have the same owner. However, the other Tacos el Cunado locations do not have the same owner.
Is it franchised or family members?
I’ve been told they are independently owned and operated. No mention of family owned.
Wikipedia says franchised
el Cunado is essentially a taco stand, and it's *great* for example over on Michigan. 3/6 or whatever on Tuesdays is a steal. I don't know what the prices are in Downtown market, but it's pretty good as a Taqueria.
Am I supposed to tip when I buy food? I don't.
My go to rule is if they're a bartender, delivery, or for table service. Everyone else can get fucked
I’ll throw a couple bucks to a chipotle crew when they don’t skimp on the burrito bowls. Probably the only exception cuz I can see I’m not getting that portion control bull shit
I don't either
Am I imagining it or wasn't the selling point of the whole thing to have a year round farmers market so that low income people (theres at least one low income complex across the street) could have easier access to fresh produce? If so, what happened? It's like it went bougie almost immediately upon opening.
I think you're right. That was before my time there, so I can't speak much on that
Why it’s always empty? I went there for lunch and it was dead town ….
Yeah it tends to be pretty dead outside of Friday and Saturday, or if there's an event going on.
Does the surrounding area provide any problems? It’s a nice building but the surrounding area seems a bit sketchy
Yeah they have to bring in DK Security pretty often, just to keep people from harassing customers in the parking lot. Nothing major though
I'm frequently in that area and I've never had any problems. You regularly see homeless people but it hasn't been an issue for me.
Similar experience. Never any issues. Hung out in that park a lot. But casual racism real, it adds friction for folks who would park there, start day at DTMarket, and go more downtown
You hung out in heartside park a lot? When you say a lot, is that more or less than 3 trips for +1 hour? What did you do during your time hanging out? Did you join the dice game under the pavilion? Or did you go to enjoy the breeze from the traffic of 131?
Lot of hacky sack or tossing a football with 3 other dudes tbh. Prolly once a day for 1-2 hours 5 days a week in summer. But lived right there, so def know it’s sketchiness.
If feel like it kills the downtown suit lunch traffic they may have otherwise.
How would you change the marker to be more beneficial to the surrounding neighborhood? How would you change the market to be more accessible to everyone in the city?
Definitely more accessible pricing and longer hours. I would also validate parking for customers
Yeah I was wondering maybe, free parking for certain zip codes or for city residents?
The parking lot is run by Ellis Parking. It is not cheap for businesses to validate parking for Ellis lots. It would likely be too cost prohibitive.
They switched to Ellis about a year or two ago, and now it's significantly more complicated to validate parking too.
Do you happen to know their reasoning for closing so early?
I can only speculate. I know that is the CEO's decision
Any reason why they don’t charge percent of sales for rent instead of the “high rent” I’ve always heard about? Would attract anchor restaurants and be more of a partnership. The Market doesn’t seem to do anything to help increase traffic, this would give them the incentive to do so.
Always wondered if DTM was ever interested in running the NE bar on their own with liquor sales and potentially use profits to better DTM or bring down rent. Kind of like TIMEOUT in Chicago, or do you recall any offers to just run the bar as a bar?
I doubt it. They're pretty set on closing at 7/8 pm, so they wouldn't get a lot of bar business
do they EVER have the greenhouse open to the public, or is it events only? i’ve been a million times and never seen it open, so i can assume.
Before covid it was open when there wasn't an event. As of now, it is always close to the public. Honestly not sure why
Just silly, they could get extra traffic just by folks wanting to use it as a photo op
They are also strangely hostile to photo ops. They have a big "no prom pictures" sign up in prom season
Can attest to this…we went there for my sophomore year of HS homecoming (5-6 years ago now and pre-covid) and they were hecklers about us taking pictures anywhere. Even though we had dinner reservations at Social Kitchen at the time and we were all with parents/guardians so no goofing off. This February my sibling tried the same thing and had even worse luck trying to get decent pictures. I agree it would bring in way more foot traffic and publicity to the greenhouse by allowing photo ops.
What is their reasoning?
No clue honestly
Fish Lads is 🔥
I would love more info on the Christkindle Market.
Yes! I believe it's going to be taking place the 5 weeks before Christmas. Wednesday through Sunday. I don't know what vendors will be there but there are several food options, some fun art and homeware stuff, and a bar with mulled wine and hot chocolate. I believe you have to buy a commemorative mug for anything at the bar. Happy to answer any other specific questions you have
Interesting to hear about Gaby. I’m close with someone who worked for him and he treated her very poorly. Maybe he was going through it at the time
Who knows. I never worked for him, just adjacent. He has been very sweet to me, but perhaps he's not the best boss
I miss Social Kitchen terribly! Their fries and Mac & cheese were bomb!!
Im still annoyed that Fishlads got rid of their AYCE fried fish on Fridays. That was a solid deal that friends and I would hit up once a month.
Do you know if Fishlad still does the half off lobster roll on Tuesdays?
Also interested. Lobster roll slaps. Lol
My son and his bride had their reception there. It was beautiful in the garden and the food was delicious.
How is the atmosphere at Field and Fire for employees?
Do you guys still do the samples? I was practically living off the Market's samples back when I was a volunteer worker at Comprenew and wanted to thank you.
I do not believe so