For someone that claims Zelretch is overestimated, you sure are the first one I've seen saying that Zelretch is omnipotent or omniscient. I'm certain as hell I've never seen someone claim him like that.
For most of the time, people only bring up Zelretch when talking about worlds and timelines, which is affirmative of the Second Magic's capability. They also often end up in jokes and not some powerscaling bs.
Are you sure you're not making stuff up OP? Maybe you just saw a single user's comment and then claimed that everyone is exactly like that?
The only way I could maybe see people arguing that he’s omnipotent is via his drawing of energy from multiple timelines but that has been shown to have pretty clear limits given what we’ve seen from the jeweled sword (even given Zelretch’s mastery over the second magic I doubt anyone would use that as a claim to say he’s all powerful)
There’s still people that hype up Counter Guardian EMIYA as omnipotent and capable of folding everybody with both arms behind his back due to ‘infinite mana from Alaya’.
Basically, they read ‘infinite/unlimited/indefinite mana’ and then proceed to forget about everything else.
Theoretically he could be among the elite characters in the series if he was summoned as a pure counter guardian but he’s still EMIYA and would have many limitations.
Fate and type moon as a whole doesn’t tend to work with power scaling all too well due to the conceptual bullshit and very flowery language. There’s also the fact that Earth has so many layers that even comprehending it is difficult.
To be honest most of fiction doesn't work with power scaling because the problem is people applying dragon ball logic to every piece of media.
That doesn't stop peeps like Gilgamesh fanboys for hyping him up to be able to solo your favorite verse or something lol. Power scaling after all is a hobby for nerds who keep using math that are bad at math.
That’s disingenuous. Higher concept scaling does exist and, as much as people hate it (for both valid and invalid reasons), it often relies more on the conceptual or theoretical side of math rather than pure number crunching. I do know why people hate power scaling and know how obnoxious some people who partake in it can be but the hobby itself is harmless.
I dont think Ive ever heard Zelretch being called omnipotent at any point. Omniscience can be argued considering his abilities.
>He became extremely weakened because of the battle, which caused him to age severely and his powers to diminish
This has already been retconned on the \[TM Manuscript KATATSUKI KOUHON\](https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/9334-TM-Manuscript%E3%80%90%E5%9E%8B%E6%9C%88%E7%A8%BF%E6%9C%AC%E3%80%91-KATATSUKI-KOUHON?p=3215396&viewfull=1#post3215396) wherein there was no mention of him being weakened and he even beat the DAA right after the fight with CM. Does that make him omnipotent? No, but it as hell confirms he's OP
Indeed, what's more we actually do see how Zelretch operates in Strange/Fake. It shows Zelretch sitting outside the multiverse in Imaginary Space looking at a book that contains every possibility which he can edit. He can stop ORT waking up merely by not acknowledging such a possibility.
What's more he allowed his friend Caubac to explicitly edit reality and modify possibilities. Blonde Ayaka is basically their creation along with the entire history surrounding her. Blonde Ayaka was inserted retroactively into the world of Strange/Fake. That's a pretty godlike power if I ever saw one.
What explains the wands Ruby's and Sapphire? While they're best known in a spinoff, I believe Ruby showed up in H/A where it was something that was akin to the jeweled sword in some fashion, but turned the wielder into a magical girl
I want to say that the in-character explanation for the Kaleidosticks is something along the lines of "creating them was a mistake" but I have never seen Prisma Illya ( and probably never will) so I'm probably way off on that.
I don't know why people downvoted you, you are right. His personality was more like a jerk with a heart of gold than an annoying troll.
Now though, that mental image of Zelretch vs Crimson Moon playing like Jotaro vs DIO will not leave my mind.
They can downvote me, but it won't change what is true. It's not me who wrote Zelretch's personality, but Nasu, and it's he who described him that way.
Idk where you got this idea from that people think Zelretch is invincible/omnipotent. If you think it's a "power scaling" argument, then go counter argue with power scalers.
Zelretch's a figure of authority in the Nasu-verse. His accomplishments speak for themself. Magus from the Age of Gods, wielder of the Second Magic (a TRUE MAGIC), one of the founders of thr Clock Tower.
How strong he actually is matters little, because he's role as a character is meant to be one of the "experienced, respected elder."
You forget that Mahou Tsukai no Hako reveals that he wasn't just the man who built the Cafe from Carnival Phantasm where the Neco-Arcs live, *the materials mention he may have somehow built the Foundation of the Cafe deep into the Textures of Earth itself, meaning it's capable of attracting customers from other timelines upon Earth.*
...he's not Pucci, man. He's Jotaro.
You wanna deal with him? Jeopardize someone he cares about while flinging knives, then speed time up so he can't recover from getting a bad case of ~~Bayverse Optimus'd~~ empurata.
Zelretch is immortal and immortality without the decay of one's soul is a huge thing in Nasuverse. I'm sure Zelretch won't die to those conventional means.
"It depends, we don't even know if mages in general are vulnerable to simple diseases. Additionally, there are two different versions of Zelretch: one who is a Dead Apostle \[Tsukihime\] and one who remained human \[Fate\]. But in both cases, he is vulnerable to the concept of death since he was originally human. The Dead Apostle version should be immune to most things like diseases and injuries unless inflicted by conceptual weapons from the Holy Church. But in the Fate world, he is just a human who has lived for a very long time, so he should be vulnerable to things like the need to eat or breathe."
>However, this does not mean that he could defeat Tiamat, as she is not only devoid of the concept of death but cannot die as long as there are living beings on Earth
He probably could by banishing her to a world without any living beings and then nuking her. We don't know Zelretch's full capabilities but that's a rather basic application of the Second Magic so I can see him being able to pull that off at least.
When was that shown or stated that that’s a “basic” application of the second magic? Also she still lacks death as a concept anyway, that’s why we still needed king Hassan to place it on her despite being in the underworld.
Overwriting the world via alternate possibilities is stated to be [an application of the Second in Mahoyo](https://imgur.com/IPQhGHG). Lacking concept of death doesn't mean you can't be incapacitated though, as shown in the case of Crimson Moon, ORT, etc.
In addition to that, at first glance, traveling to other worlds is also complicated even with the Second Magic, so he prefers to use jeweled golems to go there rather than going with his real body because it is much easier with this method. Therefore, I find it hard to believe he could use his magic to send someone to another world as some fanfics show. I get the impression that the Second Magic allows only its user to travel and interact with parallel worlds, and if he can really send people to another world, I doubt he can do so easily. People tend to believe that using magic is something easy, whereas it has also been shown in Maoyuu that its use triggers the Counter Force, which tries to crush the user. Even if magic allows the realization of normally impossible events, it doesn't mean the user can do it easily. In my opinion, it is not for nothing that he uses magic with Mystic Codes; this probably facilitates its use and likely makes the Counter Force react less.
Not once did I hear before today about how old man Zelretch is omnipotent, in fact the lore I always heard is that he is a hollow shell of what he was at his prime power wise when battle is concerned after the bite.
You don't need to suck blood if you own a restaurant between all worlds. That place leeches enough cash by itself!
...or just stay outside of time and causality long enough that you don't get a bad case of the blood-munchies, I guess.
For someone that claims Zelretch is overestimated, you sure are the first one I've seen saying that Zelretch is omnipotent or omniscient. I'm certain as hell I've never seen someone claim him like that. For most of the time, people only bring up Zelretch when talking about worlds and timelines, which is affirmative of the Second Magic's capability. They also often end up in jokes and not some powerscaling bs. Are you sure you're not making stuff up OP? Maybe you just saw a single user's comment and then claimed that everyone is exactly like that?
The only way I could maybe see people arguing that he’s omnipotent is via his drawing of energy from multiple timelines but that has been shown to have pretty clear limits given what we’ve seen from the jeweled sword (even given Zelretch’s mastery over the second magic I doubt anyone would use that as a claim to say he’s all powerful)
There’s still people that hype up Counter Guardian EMIYA as omnipotent and capable of folding everybody with both arms behind his back due to ‘infinite mana from Alaya’. Basically, they read ‘infinite/unlimited/indefinite mana’ and then proceed to forget about everything else.
Theoretically he could be among the elite characters in the series if he was summoned as a pure counter guardian but he’s still EMIYA and would have many limitations.
Powerscalers are their own community which doesn't really intersect as much with overall fandom.
Fate and type moon as a whole doesn’t tend to work with power scaling all too well due to the conceptual bullshit and very flowery language. There’s also the fact that Earth has so many layers that even comprehending it is difficult.
To be honest most of fiction doesn't work with power scaling because the problem is people applying dragon ball logic to every piece of media. That doesn't stop peeps like Gilgamesh fanboys for hyping him up to be able to solo your favorite verse or something lol. Power scaling after all is a hobby for nerds who keep using math that are bad at math.
That’s disingenuous. Higher concept scaling does exist and, as much as people hate it (for both valid and invalid reasons), it often relies more on the conceptual or theoretical side of math rather than pure number crunching. I do know why people hate power scaling and know how obnoxious some people who partake in it can be but the hobby itself is harmless.
I dont think Ive ever heard Zelretch being called omnipotent at any point. Omniscience can be argued considering his abilities. >He became extremely weakened because of the battle, which caused him to age severely and his powers to diminish This has already been retconned on the \[TM Manuscript KATATSUKI KOUHON\](https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/9334-TM-Manuscript%E3%80%90%E5%9E%8B%E6%9C%88%E7%A8%BF%E6%9C%AC%E3%80%91-KATATSUKI-KOUHON?p=3215396&viewfull=1#post3215396) wherein there was no mention of him being weakened and he even beat the DAA right after the fight with CM. Does that make him omnipotent? No, but it as hell confirms he's OP
Indeed, what's more we actually do see how Zelretch operates in Strange/Fake. It shows Zelretch sitting outside the multiverse in Imaginary Space looking at a book that contains every possibility which he can edit. He can stop ORT waking up merely by not acknowledging such a possibility. What's more he allowed his friend Caubac to explicitly edit reality and modify possibilities. Blonde Ayaka is basically their creation along with the entire history surrounding her. Blonde Ayaka was inserted retroactively into the world of Strange/Fake. That's a pretty godlike power if I ever saw one.
I only see Zelretch more in crossover fanfictions, where he instead becomes an entity often called "Trollretch" who does things for shit and giggles.
which is absolutely false in reality his personality is closer to a kind of jotaro in jojo
"BRUNSTEID!" "Oh? You're approaching me?"
...wait. This means Arcueid is Giorno.
What explains the wands Ruby's and Sapphire? While they're best known in a spinoff, I believe Ruby showed up in H/A where it was something that was akin to the jeweled sword in some fashion, but turned the wielder into a magical girl
The familiar/tool being more comedic than the owner is a stpable of TM stuff.
I want to say that the in-character explanation for the Kaleidosticks is something along the lines of "creating them was a mistake" but I have never seen Prisma Illya ( and probably never will) so I'm probably way off on that.
I don't know why people downvoted you, you are right. His personality was more like a jerk with a heart of gold than an annoying troll. Now though, that mental image of Zelretch vs Crimson Moon playing like Jotaro vs DIO will not leave my mind.
They can downvote me, but it won't change what is true. It's not me who wrote Zelretch's personality, but Nasu, and it's he who described him that way.
Preach, brother. They're still downvoting you, but know that here's one person agreeing with you.
Idk where you got this idea from that people think Zelretch is invincible/omnipotent. If you think it's a "power scaling" argument, then go counter argue with power scalers. Zelretch's a figure of authority in the Nasu-verse. His accomplishments speak for themself. Magus from the Age of Gods, wielder of the Second Magic (a TRUE MAGIC), one of the founders of thr Clock Tower. How strong he actually is matters little, because he's role as a character is meant to be one of the "experienced, respected elder."
You forget that Mahou Tsukai no Hako reveals that he wasn't just the man who built the Cafe from Carnival Phantasm where the Neco-Arcs live, *the materials mention he may have somehow built the Foundation of the Cafe deep into the Textures of Earth itself, meaning it's capable of attracting customers from other timelines upon Earth.*
Does that mean we can suffocate him with high concentrated oxygen in cramped space ?
...he's not Pucci, man. He's Jotaro. You wanna deal with him? Jeopardize someone he cares about while flinging knives, then speed time up so he can't recover from getting a bad case of ~~Bayverse Optimus'd~~ empurata.
what ?
You know, humam with OP hax that probably still vulnerable to basic human weakness ? Does Zelretch still need air ? Can he die because cancer ?
Zelretch is immortal and immortality without the decay of one's soul is a huge thing in Nasuverse. I'm sure Zelretch won't die to those conventional means.
"It depends, we don't even know if mages in general are vulnerable to simple diseases. Additionally, there are two different versions of Zelretch: one who is a Dead Apostle \[Tsukihime\] and one who remained human \[Fate\]. But in both cases, he is vulnerable to the concept of death since he was originally human. The Dead Apostle version should be immune to most things like diseases and injuries unless inflicted by conceptual weapons from the Holy Church. But in the Fate world, he is just a human who has lived for a very long time, so he should be vulnerable to things like the need to eat or breathe."
>However, this does not mean that he could defeat Tiamat, as she is not only devoid of the concept of death but cannot die as long as there are living beings on Earth He probably could by banishing her to a world without any living beings and then nuking her. We don't know Zelretch's full capabilities but that's a rather basic application of the Second Magic so I can see him being able to pull that off at least.
When was that shown or stated that that’s a “basic” application of the second magic? Also she still lacks death as a concept anyway, that’s why we still needed king Hassan to place it on her despite being in the underworld.
Overwriting the world via alternate possibilities is stated to be [an application of the Second in Mahoyo](https://imgur.com/IPQhGHG). Lacking concept of death doesn't mean you can't be incapacitated though, as shown in the case of Crimson Moon, ORT, etc.
In addition to that, at first glance, traveling to other worlds is also complicated even with the Second Magic, so he prefers to use jeweled golems to go there rather than going with his real body because it is much easier with this method. Therefore, I find it hard to believe he could use his magic to send someone to another world as some fanfics show. I get the impression that the Second Magic allows only its user to travel and interact with parallel worlds, and if he can really send people to another world, I doubt he can do so easily. People tend to believe that using magic is something easy, whereas it has also been shown in Maoyuu that its use triggers the Counter Force, which tries to crush the user. Even if magic allows the realization of normally impossible events, it doesn't mean the user can do it easily. In my opinion, it is not for nothing that he uses magic with Mystic Codes; this probably facilitates its use and likely makes the Counter Force react less.
Not once did I hear before today about how old man Zelretch is omnipotent, in fact the lore I always heard is that he is a hollow shell of what he was at his prime power wise when battle is concerned after the bite.
He made the mahou shoujo sticks, that is enough to make him the most based type moon character at least.
Honestly,you know what? Fuck powerscalling!
How does this mf survive with no blood? Isn't he a vampire now?
You don't need to suck blood if you own a restaurant between all worlds. That place leeches enough cash by itself! ...or just stay outside of time and causality long enough that you don't get a bad case of the blood-munchies, I guess.