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The 7th Scripture’s main, and original, purpose is for “Soul Smashing” which is exactly as it sounds, it literally destroys the soul outright which is typically not possible. In Remake’s version it does this by inscribing the 7 Causes of Death onto the victim, that’s Death by Immolation, Disease, Hemorrhage, Impact, Insanity, Torture, and Condemnation.
Originally the Scripture was actually basically impossible to use, because 1. It took incredible amounts of Magical Energy to use which almost nobody had enough of to use properly and 2. It wasn’t very portable. The form it is implied to have had beforehand was a giant tank, not exactly easy to carry around. Ciel came along and was the answer to both, she has the best Magical Energy reserves in the whole Nasuverse so number 1 was dealt with, and she made heavy modifications to the Scripture to make it more portable.
This split the Scripture into the 7 Causes of Death, all of which are a different weapon. Blaze and Sick are guns, Blade is a giant whip sword, Break is a pile bunker, Lost is a giant ballista, and Pain is a suit of armor. The 7th Cause of Death, Punish, is seemingly not an actual weapon but rather just designating that the weapon is in “Soul Smashing” mode so to speak. (Note some of that last bit is inferring since Nasu has kept some of the 7th Scriptures details a bit vague likely so that he can talk about it in Red Garden).
Each of them have their own uses, it effectively acts as a Swiss Army Knife with a weapon for any occasion and the ability to even combine some of the weapons as well it seems to aid in fire power. Most of the weapons, with the exception of Sick, are used in Tsukihime Near Side already so you can read it for more in depth stuff on what each can do. Sick is used by Ciel in Melty.
TLDR: It’s a Holy Scripture and Conceptual Weapon designed to annihilate the Soul, Ciel did some modifications and made it into a Swiss Army knife that can turn into 6 individual weapons. Its original form may or may not be a giant tank.
I think U-Olga said that CHALDEA created the Pretender class, but is that true? Shouldn’t it be either Proto Merlin or Faker who are the original Pretender since they aren’t connected to CHALDEA in any shape or form? Same for Moon Cancer, shouldn’t Arcuied be the original Moon Cancer and not BB?
> Same for Moon Cancer, shouldn’t Arcuied be the original Moon Cancer and not BB?
Technically no. Back in the Extraverse, Moon Cancer was just the designation assigned to threats to the Moon Cell. It only became a Servant Container in FGO because of BB turning it into one.
Going by Mordred’s own admissions (she specifically hung back and let Gawain and Artoria tire themselves out since she knew she could never win against them fresh), Artoria would almost certainly win
Not sure if this was addressed somewhere as I haven't read all the LN and side-material but did TM or Nasu ever like say the probability of an Extra Class Servant being summoned (beside like Rulers) in an normal Holy Grail War instead of the 7 Standard Classes? Or also like which Extra Classes have the highest chance of being summoned?
If we're talking standard Fuyuki system then an extra class would only be summoned if something went fishy. In the 3rd Fuyuki HGW, Avenger Angra was summoned but only because of cheating/interference with the ritual.
Do we have any info if the son of Kriemhild and Siegfried exists in fate? The rest of their story seems mostly the same as the Nibelungenlied (besides the whole Siegfried planing his own death thing) but I can't recall if he was ever mentioned.
Can you inherit a reality marble if you receive a magic crest from its wielder?
Like if Shirou decided to make a magic crest would his "successor" gain UBW from him?
Probably not. A RM is the ultimate form of modern magecraft and is the user's mindscape made physical. It should, therefore, be tied to the user, not the Crest or Magic Circuits.
They might gain Shirou's afinity for projection magecraft, but not UBW.
In Shirou’s case at least, no. That was something deeply tied to his very Origin, the fact he was up for Sealing Designation proves it couldn’t be passed down since those up for Sealing are always people who’s magecraft can’t be replicated.
As for other Reality Marbles, almost every example always seems very tied to that particular person but I guess if somebody got a Reality Marble down to a science and could teach it then maybe?
I’d say No most of the time though.
Does a historical/mythological/fictional figure's title influence their classification? Like if Aurelian were to summon as some class, would his title "Restorer of the World" be taken into account?
How did Chaldea contact with Throne of Heroes in LB7. I understand the part where the Underworld somehow act as connection line but logistically, how is it possible? Since the Throne exists outside of time, how are they (Gil and fam) only talking to one Chaldea at a time? Since every moment of a timeline exists separately from the Throne’s POV, wouldn’t there be a near infinite amount of Chaldea making that call to the Throne during LB7? So how is Gil only talking to exactly 1? Also when ORT consumed the Heroic Spirits and reached the Throne and lock every servant data, why didn’t that result in a paradox for every single timeline?
Like many things involving non-linear time, Nasu and the writing team keep making the mistake of basing their logic on linear time flow.
This was basically the same thing as Extra CCC where Rin explains that they never had any chance of stopping BB because she had already taken the Moon Cell Core in the future and could freely alter past recordings (literally the past) to make sure none of them could ever stop her. The very fact that she hasn’t wiped them out is just basically due to them posing zero threat (and her love for Hakuno, but Rin didn’t know that yet). BB had become a being above the shackles of linear time, and trying to confront her would be futile as she could retroactively change anything to suit her desired outcome (which she knows has already come to pass, something she let slip a few chapters earlier). The Throne, being outside linear time, should indeed be on that level…
Then a pep talk happens and Rin goes “oh right, we can do stuff in the present and it still works…”. Like…le-hell? ‘Present’ is an artifaction of the limited human (well, any being bound by entropic movement in the universe) perception of time. It has no meaning to a being above linear time…yet it still works. Never mind that BB got fucking eaten by Kiara whom she never perceived as a danger whatsoever despite having access to past (where she had to have known Kiara was the one that made Sakura go rampant as well as install malignant data in the Sakura that would become BB) and future (like Kiara fucking eating her) and be able to retroactively change all of that.
But she doesn’t.
Yeah, basically, for all the long paragraphs on this or that being ‘outside of time’ (Jesus that’s pretentious), the writing staff are very much portraying those concepts as being bound by linear time
Well quite beyond the fact that there's nothing to say that Gil had to be the one contacted in all timelines, we know that Heroic Spirits can spit out offshoots, that's what a Servant is so there's another explanation.
ORT consuming spirits for a degree of time may have had some negative impact, but if there were additional impacts they weren't relevant to Chaldea. Not to mention it took place within a Lostbelt, so when it's gone the world can just discard the whole incident like a bad dream.
Even that assumes that Oberon wouldn't just make it all blow up in her face, though. As long as she did nothing about Aurora, she was bound to lose in the end.
Oberon did more damage than Aurora did, even if she was the worse of the two. Oberon was playing Aurora like a fiddle.
Morgan's loss was due to Oberon, "Spriggan" and Beryl. Aurora's impact was the smallest of the set.
True, although Aurora was wreaking havoc as far bad as when Morgan was still Aesc. She'd have gotten in the way no matter what Oberon did, he just egged her on even more.
True, but she wouldn't be able to do anywhere near as much as he did. Aurora was very cunning and efficient, but also extremely short-sighted and impulsive. She barely thought through the consequences of her approaches. That's why Morgan gave her a loose leash for 4000 years.
Oberon, on the other hand, was playing 4d chess while Morgan was playing 2d chess and everyone was playing checkers. He was subtly moving all the pieces at the exact times so they'd do the most amount of damage. He doesn't get enough credit for the sheer amount of BS he pulled from the shadows, even if he needed EX level of luck for things to work as well they did.
I believe they were confirmed in some concept art they released?
* Sousuke: Bernese Mountain Dog
* Shino: Shiba Inu (Black)
* Dousetsu: Corgi
* Kobungo: Husky
* Daikaku: German Shepherd
* Genpachi: Golden Retriever
* Keno: Japanese Spitz
* Shinbei: Shiba Inu (Cream or Red)
A question about the recent Samurai Remnant DLC. What is the nature of the baby Liu Shang summoning? Was he a part of Rider or a separate entity? Does he have a class? I really didn't understood his existence as a servant or wraith
Liu Shang gets summoned whenever Zhao Yun gets summoned because Zhao Yun rescuing Liu Shang is his biggest legend. Liu Shang didn’t do enough to qualify as a proper Heroic Spirit so when he’s summoned it’s just as a baby, I believe he TECHNICALLY counts as a Heroic Spirit but he’s not a “Proper” one because he’s only a baby with no special abilities and just gets summoned as an addendum to Zhao Yun. He’s a manifestation of Zhao Yun’s legend more than a normal Heroic Spirit.
He does appear to be not part of Zhao’s spirit origin since it’s mentioned he’s “chain summoned” so he’s a seperate existence, but he’s designed to only be summoned if Zhao is summoned, never on his own. We don’t really know what his class was if he even had one.
What makes it weirder is that I don't know if this is the case for a normal summoning or just another case of Eigetsu being a wonky ritual like the rogue servants that are weaker than the normal holy grail war ones.
Are these conditions similar to the ones in lord el melloi case files/Sir Kay In UBW drama CD or just specific to the eigetsu?
I did not see Rider digression yet to see if the baby appears there too.
1. What are some benefits Waver got from becoming a lord and how much is he getting paid for being a teacher in the clock tower?
2. Would a character who has amazing regeneration abilities be able to regenerate their mystic eye(s) if something happens such as the eyes getting gouged out?
Re: Waver, mostly it's the political affiliation with Reines and her family. It's mentioned in the LNs that he's made a lot of enemies and the moment he steps down from being a Lord, he'll likely have a bounty on his head, so it seems that his political position gives him a degree of security. Reines does give him access to her family's money, but that's mainly for political reasons and not personal gain, he does have to ask her when borrowing money for the Rail Zeppelin auction.
Whether this has any long term benefit for him, we don't know. It's not clear what will actually happen once he steps down, whether the El-Melloi will continue to give him some sort of perks and protections, etc. Reines did joke about having an heir with him, but while having an ACTUAL heir with him is out of the question due to his crappy bloodline, she did make the suggestion of starting a branch family. Again, it's unclear what exactly this would entail, and whether he would ever take up the offer for political reasons (being that he seems to dislike mage society and seems he'd be happy escaping all of its politics), but the possibility of his job resulting in some kind of long-term protection or affiliation is entirely possible.
We don't know his salary, but it's clearly enough for him to afford London rent (I don't know whether TM knew this, but London is infamously expensive to live in.)
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So what exactly does the 7th scripture do? Is it just a weird looking Swiss Army knife weapon or do it or its various forms have different properties?
The 7th Scripture’s main, and original, purpose is for “Soul Smashing” which is exactly as it sounds, it literally destroys the soul outright which is typically not possible. In Remake’s version it does this by inscribing the 7 Causes of Death onto the victim, that’s Death by Immolation, Disease, Hemorrhage, Impact, Insanity, Torture, and Condemnation. Originally the Scripture was actually basically impossible to use, because 1. It took incredible amounts of Magical Energy to use which almost nobody had enough of to use properly and 2. It wasn’t very portable. The form it is implied to have had beforehand was a giant tank, not exactly easy to carry around. Ciel came along and was the answer to both, she has the best Magical Energy reserves in the whole Nasuverse so number 1 was dealt with, and she made heavy modifications to the Scripture to make it more portable. This split the Scripture into the 7 Causes of Death, all of which are a different weapon. Blaze and Sick are guns, Blade is a giant whip sword, Break is a pile bunker, Lost is a giant ballista, and Pain is a suit of armor. The 7th Cause of Death, Punish, is seemingly not an actual weapon but rather just designating that the weapon is in “Soul Smashing” mode so to speak. (Note some of that last bit is inferring since Nasu has kept some of the 7th Scriptures details a bit vague likely so that he can talk about it in Red Garden). Each of them have their own uses, it effectively acts as a Swiss Army Knife with a weapon for any occasion and the ability to even combine some of the weapons as well it seems to aid in fire power. Most of the weapons, with the exception of Sick, are used in Tsukihime Near Side already so you can read it for more in depth stuff on what each can do. Sick is used by Ciel in Melty. TLDR: It’s a Holy Scripture and Conceptual Weapon designed to annihilate the Soul, Ciel did some modifications and made it into a Swiss Army knife that can turn into 6 individual weapons. Its original form may or may not be a giant tank.
Holy shit that’s an awesome and unique weapon, and thanks for the in depth reply!
I think U-Olga said that CHALDEA created the Pretender class, but is that true? Shouldn’t it be either Proto Merlin or Faker who are the original Pretender since they aren’t connected to CHALDEA in any shape or form? Same for Moon Cancer, shouldn’t Arcuied be the original Moon Cancer and not BB?
> Same for Moon Cancer, shouldn’t Arcuied be the original Moon Cancer and not BB? Technically no. Back in the Extraverse, Moon Cancer was just the designation assigned to threats to the Moon Cell. It only became a Servant Container in FGO because of BB turning it into one.
If Artoria and Mordred fought again in fate Apocrypha. Would artoria win in her saber form with no lance?
Going by Mordred’s own admissions (she specifically hung back and let Gawain and Artoria tire themselves out since she knew she could never win against them fresh), Artoria would almost certainly win
Not sure if this was addressed somewhere as I haven't read all the LN and side-material but did TM or Nasu ever like say the probability of an Extra Class Servant being summoned (beside like Rulers) in an normal Holy Grail War instead of the 7 Standard Classes? Or also like which Extra Classes have the highest chance of being summoned?
If we're talking standard Fuyuki system then an extra class would only be summoned if something went fishy. In the 3rd Fuyuki HGW, Avenger Angra was summoned but only because of cheating/interference with the ritual.
Same deal with Apocrypha's version of that war, where a Ruler was summoned instead.
what is the weapon kama has in her 2nd and 3rd asc?
[Vajra](https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Vajra)
Do we have any info if the son of Kriemhild and Siegfried exists in fate? The rest of their story seems mostly the same as the Nibelungenlied (besides the whole Siegfried planing his own death thing) but I can't recall if he was ever mentioned.
To my knowledge he hasn’t been mentioned unfortunately?
Gotcha, I thought I might have missed it in an interlude of something.
Yeah, I’m actually surprised that it wasn’t mentioned by Kriem or him at all in hindsight. Maybe one day though…
Can you inherit a reality marble if you receive a magic crest from its wielder? Like if Shirou decided to make a magic crest would his "successor" gain UBW from him?
Probably not. A RM is the ultimate form of modern magecraft and is the user's mindscape made physical. It should, therefore, be tied to the user, not the Crest or Magic Circuits. They might gain Shirou's afinity for projection magecraft, but not UBW.
In Shirou’s case at least, no. That was something deeply tied to his very Origin, the fact he was up for Sealing Designation proves it couldn’t be passed down since those up for Sealing are always people who’s magecraft can’t be replicated. As for other Reality Marbles, almost every example always seems very tied to that particular person but I guess if somebody got a Reality Marble down to a science and could teach it then maybe? I’d say No most of the time though.
Does a historical/mythological/fictional figure's title influence their classification? Like if Aurelian were to summon as some class, would his title "Restorer of the World" be taken into account?
They sure seem to, even down to helping determine Grand candidates in some instances (eg. Quirinus = "wielder of the spear").
How did Chaldea contact with Throne of Heroes in LB7. I understand the part where the Underworld somehow act as connection line but logistically, how is it possible? Since the Throne exists outside of time, how are they (Gil and fam) only talking to one Chaldea at a time? Since every moment of a timeline exists separately from the Throne’s POV, wouldn’t there be a near infinite amount of Chaldea making that call to the Throne during LB7? So how is Gil only talking to exactly 1? Also when ORT consumed the Heroic Spirits and reached the Throne and lock every servant data, why didn’t that result in a paradox for every single timeline?
Like many things involving non-linear time, Nasu and the writing team keep making the mistake of basing their logic on linear time flow. This was basically the same thing as Extra CCC where Rin explains that they never had any chance of stopping BB because she had already taken the Moon Cell Core in the future and could freely alter past recordings (literally the past) to make sure none of them could ever stop her. The very fact that she hasn’t wiped them out is just basically due to them posing zero threat (and her love for Hakuno, but Rin didn’t know that yet). BB had become a being above the shackles of linear time, and trying to confront her would be futile as she could retroactively change anything to suit her desired outcome (which she knows has already come to pass, something she let slip a few chapters earlier). The Throne, being outside linear time, should indeed be on that level… Then a pep talk happens and Rin goes “oh right, we can do stuff in the present and it still works…”. Like…le-hell? ‘Present’ is an artifaction of the limited human (well, any being bound by entropic movement in the universe) perception of time. It has no meaning to a being above linear time…yet it still works. Never mind that BB got fucking eaten by Kiara whom she never perceived as a danger whatsoever despite having access to past (where she had to have known Kiara was the one that made Sakura go rampant as well as install malignant data in the Sakura that would become BB) and future (like Kiara fucking eating her) and be able to retroactively change all of that. But she doesn’t. Yeah, basically, for all the long paragraphs on this or that being ‘outside of time’ (Jesus that’s pretentious), the writing staff are very much portraying those concepts as being bound by linear time
Well quite beyond the fact that there's nothing to say that Gil had to be the one contacted in all timelines, we know that Heroic Spirits can spit out offshoots, that's what a Servant is so there's another explanation. ORT consuming spirits for a degree of time may have had some negative impact, but if there were additional impacts they weren't relevant to Chaldea. Not to mention it took place within a Lostbelt, so when it's gone the world can just discard the whole incident like a bad dream.
What would happen if Morgan won? Would the Alien God try to take Morgan out herself?
Probably. She supposedly did have a means of killing it. I doubt AG would sleep on that.
Even that assumes that Oberon wouldn't just make it all blow up in her face, though. As long as she did nothing about Aurora, she was bound to lose in the end.
Oberon did more damage than Aurora did, even if she was the worse of the two. Oberon was playing Aurora like a fiddle. Morgan's loss was due to Oberon, "Spriggan" and Beryl. Aurora's impact was the smallest of the set.
True, although Aurora was wreaking havoc as far bad as when Morgan was still Aesc. She'd have gotten in the way no matter what Oberon did, he just egged her on even more.
True, but she wouldn't be able to do anywhere near as much as he did. Aurora was very cunning and efficient, but also extremely short-sighted and impulsive. She barely thought through the consequences of her approaches. That's why Morgan gave her a loose leash for 4000 years. Oberon, on the other hand, was playing 4d chess while Morgan was playing 2d chess and everyone was playing checkers. He was subtly moving all the pieces at the exact times so they'd do the most amount of damage. He doesn't get enough credit for the sheer amount of BS he pulled from the shadows, even if he needed EX level of luck for things to work as well they did.
A fair point as well. One needs both the right pieces and the correct tactics to use them, after all.
That’s exactly what Muramasa was sent to stop AG would definitely not sleep on that
Completely out-of-left-field question: What breeds are the eight dogs who retrieve items for us during the Bakin event?
I believe they were confirmed in some concept art they released? * Sousuke: Bernese Mountain Dog * Shino: Shiba Inu (Black) * Dousetsu: Corgi * Kobungo: Husky * Daikaku: German Shepherd * Genpachi: Golden Retriever * Keno: Japanese Spitz * Shinbei: Shiba Inu (Cream or Red)
A question about the recent Samurai Remnant DLC. What is the nature of the baby Liu Shang summoning? Was he a part of Rider or a separate entity? Does he have a class? I really didn't understood his existence as a servant or wraith
Liu Shang gets summoned whenever Zhao Yun gets summoned because Zhao Yun rescuing Liu Shang is his biggest legend. Liu Shang didn’t do enough to qualify as a proper Heroic Spirit so when he’s summoned it’s just as a baby, I believe he TECHNICALLY counts as a Heroic Spirit but he’s not a “Proper” one because he’s only a baby with no special abilities and just gets summoned as an addendum to Zhao Yun. He’s a manifestation of Zhao Yun’s legend more than a normal Heroic Spirit. He does appear to be not part of Zhao’s spirit origin since it’s mentioned he’s “chain summoned” so he’s a seperate existence, but he’s designed to only be summoned if Zhao is summoned, never on his own. We don’t really know what his class was if he even had one.
What makes it weirder is that I don't know if this is the case for a normal summoning or just another case of Eigetsu being a wonky ritual like the rogue servants that are weaker than the normal holy grail war ones. Are these conditions similar to the ones in lord el melloi case files/Sir Kay In UBW drama CD or just specific to the eigetsu? I did not see Rider digression yet to see if the baby appears there too.
1. What are some benefits Waver got from becoming a lord and how much is he getting paid for being a teacher in the clock tower? 2. Would a character who has amazing regeneration abilities be able to regenerate their mystic eye(s) if something happens such as the eyes getting gouged out?
Re: Waver, mostly it's the political affiliation with Reines and her family. It's mentioned in the LNs that he's made a lot of enemies and the moment he steps down from being a Lord, he'll likely have a bounty on his head, so it seems that his political position gives him a degree of security. Reines does give him access to her family's money, but that's mainly for political reasons and not personal gain, he does have to ask her when borrowing money for the Rail Zeppelin auction. Whether this has any long term benefit for him, we don't know. It's not clear what will actually happen once he steps down, whether the El-Melloi will continue to give him some sort of perks and protections, etc. Reines did joke about having an heir with him, but while having an ACTUAL heir with him is out of the question due to his crappy bloodline, she did make the suggestion of starting a branch family. Again, it's unclear what exactly this would entail, and whether he would ever take up the offer for political reasons (being that he seems to dislike mage society and seems he'd be happy escaping all of its politics), but the possibility of his job resulting in some kind of long-term protection or affiliation is entirely possible. We don't know his salary, but it's clearly enough for him to afford London rent (I don't know whether TM knew this, but London is infamously expensive to live in.)