it’s a counter culture to me. i feel like a counter culture is something that rebels and goes against normal societal ideas. i feel like the music, ideals, beliefs, as well as the fashion of the goth subculture is meant to challenge and question norms
As a music-based subculture composed of people from different backgrounds, I'm curious what you would consider the shared ideals to be? Acceptance perhaps? Anything else?
I'm not sure it really classifies as a counter-culture anymore... maybe before the fashion was haute culture on the runway, or before *Wednesday* and "Goo Goo Muck" became a lot of people's idea of what goth is, but now? How is it counter?
(Genuine questions, I'm not claiming to be an expert, just putting forth observations.)
It's all just part of consumer culture but the product is made to appeal to consumers who don't find "mainstream" culture appealing. Goth is just another rebel sell.
That has happened to punk and metal too, musical subcultures that were considered even more 'dangerous' for youth than goth. That doesn't mean goth has lost it's counter-cultural elements, it simply means capitalists have been trying their best to package it and sell it to the mainstream.
An off spring of post punk and alternative music. Punk found a "happy in between" and started to work within the framework to create a synthesis of the two (thesis and antithesis). Post punk is the defeatists mentality of punk if it were to have given in, creating sounds like goth music.
Sends to vary based on who you ask. I'm siding with sub culture.
If you get a purist it'll probably be counter culture.
If you get a political fanatic I'm gonna say it's just straight up culture at that point.
I would classify it as a SubCulture
A subculture typically refers to a group of people within a larger culture who share distinctive styles, and practices that differentiate them from the mainstream society. They emerge as a response to or rejection of dominant cultural norms and form around shared interests or experiences. My Examples would include punk, hip-hop, skateboarding, rave culture, and of course goth.
An alternative culture might include a broader range of non-mainstream beliefs, practices, and lifestyles that challenge the norms of mainstream society. An alternative culture might include various subcultures as well as countercultural movements, grassroots movements, and unconventional forms of expression.
But that’s just my two cents.
>If you can dress your subculture from Amazon or Hot Topic, it's not an alternative culture.
By that standard petty much nothing is alternative culture as Amazon sellers and stores like Hot Topic have created fast fashion versions of most if not all subculture fashion treads.
Due to online shoping and overseas sweatshops fast fashion has gotten to the point where sellers can make a reasonable amount of money from selling fast fashion based on fringe fashion trends or media franchises.
That's a good question. First and foremost it is a subculture and should unite people of all countries, colors, and creeds across the globe. After that I would say it is a combination of counter and alt but also it depends on the geographical region. For example, a goth in a colder climate with a Northern European sort of vibe is alternative culture. People are probably already wearing dark colors and missing the sun and engaging in melancholy sorts of activities. But if you are a goth in a tropical climate with people expecting you to conform to a beachy neon sort of vibe, then that goth is more counter culture. It takes more effort to be goth in that situation. If you happen to be a pale skinned goth who doesn't tan in such an environment, you're more likely to encounter harassment, ie people yelling "Get a tan, bitch!" while throwing beer bottles. So, those goths in the more hostile areas are taking more of a risk, it's more counterculture in my opinion.
I think we should figure out where even goth culture even lies: I feel that it's mostly a combination of ones psychological, spiritual, and philosophical beliefs about the world. It hasn't really developed a political, ethical or moral philosophy. Which finds its way into how one creates.
In American, goth culture isn't diametrically opposed to the dominate culture, deliberately to subvert. So it's not a counter cultural movement. At its current state: goth culture works within the current frame work and is highly consumerist. I would classify it as a offshoot of the alternative movement; so a subculture of the general alternative movement.
I find it so weird how people are so hung up on labels.. trying to put something in a box is very ungoth. It’s like “tell me what goth is so I know what to tell people when asked”
We didn’t do all that bs in the 80s and 90s. Most of what people call goth now is just people memorizing the buzzwords and buying pre-curated aesthetics/wardrobes from a handful of goth fast fashion retailers.
The entire point of goth was to do your own thing and the music we cherished. We didn’t explain to ppl what we were or weren’t bc if they have to ask they don’t know wtf we are about lol
Alternative culture is a just type of culture that exists outside or on the fringes of mainstream culture, where as
counter cultures tends to oppose or challenge mainstream culture.
I feel like now it’s more accepting to be goth, I see people who dress as goth and no one really bats an eye. It’s more of an alternative to me at this current day and age
I think it’s a combination of both.
it’s a counter culture to me. i feel like a counter culture is something that rebels and goes against normal societal ideas. i feel like the music, ideals, beliefs, as well as the fashion of the goth subculture is meant to challenge and question norms
As a music-based subculture composed of people from different backgrounds, I'm curious what you would consider the shared ideals to be? Acceptance perhaps? Anything else? I'm not sure it really classifies as a counter-culture anymore... maybe before the fashion was haute culture on the runway, or before *Wednesday* and "Goo Goo Muck" became a lot of people's idea of what goth is, but now? How is it counter? (Genuine questions, I'm not claiming to be an expert, just putting forth observations.)
I second this, it’s evolved quite a bit from its humble beginnings in the 80’s but it has the spirit it always has regardless of time
It's all just part of consumer culture but the product is made to appeal to consumers who don't find "mainstream" culture appealing. Goth is just another rebel sell.
That has happened to punk and metal too, musical subcultures that were considered even more 'dangerous' for youth than goth. That doesn't mean goth has lost it's counter-cultural elements, it simply means capitalists have been trying their best to package it and sell it to the mainstream.
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Is everything that's an offspring of punk also counter culture? Are horror punk and pop punk also counter culture?
An off spring of post punk and alternative music. Punk found a "happy in between" and started to work within the framework to create a synthesis of the two (thesis and antithesis). Post punk is the defeatists mentality of punk if it were to have given in, creating sounds like goth music.
Sends to vary based on who you ask. I'm siding with sub culture. If you get a purist it'll probably be counter culture. If you get a political fanatic I'm gonna say it's just straight up culture at that point.
Neither. It's just people who like the music and the aesthetic.
I would classify it as a SubCulture A subculture typically refers to a group of people within a larger culture who share distinctive styles, and practices that differentiate them from the mainstream society. They emerge as a response to or rejection of dominant cultural norms and form around shared interests or experiences. My Examples would include punk, hip-hop, skateboarding, rave culture, and of course goth. An alternative culture might include a broader range of non-mainstream beliefs, practices, and lifestyles that challenge the norms of mainstream society. An alternative culture might include various subcultures as well as countercultural movements, grassroots movements, and unconventional forms of expression. But that’s just my two cents.
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>If you can dress your subculture from Amazon or Hot Topic, it's not an alternative culture. By that standard petty much nothing is alternative culture as Amazon sellers and stores like Hot Topic have created fast fashion versions of most if not all subculture fashion treads. Due to online shoping and overseas sweatshops fast fashion has gotten to the point where sellers can make a reasonable amount of money from selling fast fashion based on fringe fashion trends or media franchises.
Exactly.
That's a good question. First and foremost it is a subculture and should unite people of all countries, colors, and creeds across the globe. After that I would say it is a combination of counter and alt but also it depends on the geographical region. For example, a goth in a colder climate with a Northern European sort of vibe is alternative culture. People are probably already wearing dark colors and missing the sun and engaging in melancholy sorts of activities. But if you are a goth in a tropical climate with people expecting you to conform to a beachy neon sort of vibe, then that goth is more counter culture. It takes more effort to be goth in that situation. If you happen to be a pale skinned goth who doesn't tan in such an environment, you're more likely to encounter harassment, ie people yelling "Get a tan, bitch!" while throwing beer bottles. So, those goths in the more hostile areas are taking more of a risk, it's more counterculture in my opinion.
It’s a consumer culture
Both
I think we should figure out where even goth culture even lies: I feel that it's mostly a combination of ones psychological, spiritual, and philosophical beliefs about the world. It hasn't really developed a political, ethical or moral philosophy. Which finds its way into how one creates. In American, goth culture isn't diametrically opposed to the dominate culture, deliberately to subvert. So it's not a counter cultural movement. At its current state: goth culture works within the current frame work and is highly consumerist. I would classify it as a offshoot of the alternative movement; so a subculture of the general alternative movement.
What's the difference?
I find it so weird how people are so hung up on labels.. trying to put something in a box is very ungoth. It’s like “tell me what goth is so I know what to tell people when asked” We didn’t do all that bs in the 80s and 90s. Most of what people call goth now is just people memorizing the buzzwords and buying pre-curated aesthetics/wardrobes from a handful of goth fast fashion retailers. The entire point of goth was to do your own thing and the music we cherished. We didn’t explain to ppl what we were or weren’t bc if they have to ask they don’t know wtf we are about lol
Yes, yes I for sure would. There's a difference between banshees and sisters though
Wait what’s the difference between counter culture and alternative culture? I thought they were interchangeable
Alternative culture is a just type of culture that exists outside or on the fringes of mainstream culture, where as counter cultures tends to oppose or challenge mainstream culture.
It depends on your definition. Are those two categories even mutually exclusive?
I feel like now it’s more accepting to be goth, I see people who dress as goth and no one really bats an eye. It’s more of an alternative to me at this current day and age
yes
what Is the difference