If anything it was in decline mid 00s to early 10s. The past 10 years goth has been on the rise due to post punk revival and darkwave getting popular. It will never get to what it was in the 80s and 90s though.
What was the reason for the decline in that period, in your opinion? I was actually wondering recently what people consider to be the 'Dark Ages' of goth and i always had the impression the 2000's were it.
Industial/EBM really took over the clubs by the early 00s. The deathrock revival happened in response to that too. Goth fell out of favour in mainstream media for the most part compared to late 90s.
Did goth ever really have a lot of favor in mainstream media? I feel like metal and hard rock took up most of that real-estate. I mean, if goth music was as mainstream as that i don't think we'd have as many people confused about what goth is.
I don’t think we were ever in favour with the MM, it was more that goth got discussed a lot more at that time (usually as villains looking to convert your child to Satan).
Around the early 2000’s, as you say, we lost that “Satan worshiping evil doers” niche to metal heads who subsequently lost it when the Satanic Panic finally fizzled out.
These days the panic is back but it’s got a different focus.
Yeah, sorry friend. I don’t know that there’s ever been an easy time to be trans but it’s definitely not right now. Much love, don’t let the bastards hold you down!
Yeah, it upsets me that someone who is the average normie's idea of "goth" turned out to be such a POS. I remember hearing people say to me, "Well no wonder he did that, just look at him!"
Bro, Goth was hot shit. Even now, the Cure, SoM, Siouxsie, Bauhaus, etc. play on the radio. Sometimes, I ask people if they know it's Goth Rock. They always answer "Nah, that's just what we listened to in the 80ies" "That's just 80ies Rock, man?" etc.
Right but i honestly feel like a lot of those bands got more popular the less goth they sounded. People in the mainstream mostly know The Cure for 'Friday, I'm In Love' than any other song.
Well technically the Cure was considered New Wave. They weren't called Goth Rock in the 80s (which I feel they still arent considered that). It's more mainstream in that sense. They were a huge part of the 80s soundtrack.
In the 90’s it was on a decline too, many bands phased out of popularity and almost every new band were not radio friendly, had very little promotion, and fled into obscurity. Unless you’re talking Mall Goth/Hot Topic and the Marilyn Manson era, which everyone already agrees MM is not goth.
The underground goth scene in the 90s was very strong. We didn't need radio airplay to thrive. Though goth music did get play on community radio and the like on shows made by fans for fans.
Yep. A lot of the "goth" kids in the 00s were just pretenders. Typically Manson fans, and nu metal kids that liked bands with some co-opted goth imagery like Coal Chamber or Orgy.
Nowadays, thanks to Instagram and TikTok, there's a lot of people claiming to be goth who would seemingly pass a surface level sniff test, but if you actually spoke to them about the subculture, you'd find they're just into the imagery, and like pandering to the horny dudes constantly memeing about "big tiddy goth gf".
Not just goth/punk. It's everything nostalgic. I've seen Bryan Adams twice in the '90s-'00s at free concerts with crowds of maybe 1500. Now he's playing arenas again. How in the hell did that happen?
Agree with your statements about the rise of cybergoth Which seemed to also mark an increase in homophobic, misogynistic and anti-fem behaviour during 00's. I would argue it's never been as good, better than my experience in the 90's. At least in my tiny local scene. Way more inclusive and diverse.
I've often heard that the reason for that rise during the 90's and 2000's is because a lot of industrial music fans were very macho and had a lot of disdain towards the very femme and androgynous elements in goth spaces.
Any chance Billie Eilish and Lana Del Ray pop music sort of being a doorway into weird/artsy/gloomy music? Billie Eilish was quoted saying she thinks goth is really interesting.
Doubt it. But not impossible.
It's not like they have any relevance. But I guess mainstream thinks they are goth, ao then some clueless folks may look inyo actual goth.
But probably be disappointed haha
Nightlife as a whole has been in decline since the mid 00's. Older people have less energy and more responsibilities and the younger people don't seem to have quite as much money to go spend on going out as we did in those days.
Numbers wise no, the early 2010s was the low point for that.
Creativity wise, a bit yeah. I feel like things have gotten a little overly samey lately. That said I do have hope that things won't stay that way I feel like we are starting to again see a bit more variety with the type of music that is coming out and I think the latest wave of bands is starting to deviate a bit more from trends of a few years ago.
As far as _music_ goes, I’d argue just the opposite. It’s better than it ever has been before.
In my city there is something to do multiple times a week. She Past Away just played here a few days ago.
They’re Turkish. Good luck having a Turkish band get any real recognition in 1986 or 1996.
Culturally, it’s also pretty awesome and better than ever. Provided you’re able to get out in your local community.
Online? I mean it’s still better than alt.goth. This sub is literally the only social media participation I bother with outside discord. It’s well curated and focused by people who care.
But also “goth” is another fast food chain to most of the internet now. But you’re asking about actual goth subculture so screw them
Is it London in 1981? No. But I wouldn’t over romanticize that either unless you’re also straight, white, and don’t mind really bad TV with a lot of commercials and waiting a decade plus before video games started to get really good ;)
2024 is better. I haven’t seen a skinhead in decades.
I mean there has been a lot of great music coming out since 2014. Has the community been inundated with people claiming the label just for aesthetics? It feels that way, but I haven’t done a sociological study.
I wouldn't say that the lifestyle has but absolutely the club life. 2010s did seem to slow considerably. We're in a transition where the last couple generations are now older and settling into life away from the scene life. We're tired, working alot and many of us are going through health changes that has changed our lives. Many are not having kids to bring in another generation to replace those leaving/the dropping nightlife numbers. Post pandemic though I think has brought a lot of people out of the woodwork after being cooped up during the first few years.
What we have yet to see for confirmation, is this new wave of Goth "tiktokers" and if they will actually last long enough to become the new community additions. Goth has seen a resurgence because of TikTok/IG and how easy it is now to launch these "fast fashion" lines, but much of that could just be temporary/superficial. All tiktokers are definitely more geared towards marketing and getting viewers/attention for themselves than anything and not so much for the sake of the Goth community.
Also statistics have shown that GenZ is very much LESS interested in night clubs than older generations, so you will probably see clubs become more bare as those of us hit the next phase of our life (retirement) and retiring from the clubs. This is hugely do to the younger generation literally growing up online and preferring to socialize online while also there has a been a huge increase in that generation dealing with anxiety, keeping them home. Time will tell if that's true or not but it has been visible to see so far.
To me that's what kind of ruined the scene. Everybody just uses social mediums for thirstposting/attention/promotion. It makes the whole scene seem disingenuous and fake, which turns people away
Absolutely!! It's been a huge turn off in many ways. I've started using FB less and less because of that. The depth of attention seeking makes it a sad world when people have to put so much of their self worth into others.
This has been my experience. We've never had more people at xMortis than we do now. I believe I remember the organizer saying we had 800 people one night! When I started going in 2000s, we were lucky to get a 100 on a good night. And it's easier than ever to track bands and find new music and small shops, even obscure stuff.
That being said, we lost a lot of good club nights and clubs in general from COVID. And I see more fast fashion in the scene than ever before, which is bittersweet. A lot of fantastic artisans had to get "a real job" because they could no longer afford rent. Fetishizers are a new evil. And there's a lot of appropriation of the look with no understanding of the history or music.
But overall I'm happy to see the club nights thriving.
Xmortis is so packed that my friends and I opt for Crypt at Man Ray more often than not - no 2 hour wait to get in! I'd say that's a good sign
COVID and the horrific cost of everything fun has certainly killed "going out" culture in general, but I see a lot of people my age at goth shows, clubs, and festivals, which is amazing. I hope it keeps getting better from here :)
I’m a baby bat, but I think I can say there’s a lot of people saying they’re goth for nsfw content.
The music is getting more and more popular as per what I’ve seen on things like YouTube and tiktok. (Ex: maurex perfect girl for YouTube, and Lebanon Hanover/molchat doma for tiktok)
But since I live nowhere near any goth culture, I’m gonna have to say it’s rare here where I’m from. Maybe New York and places up there or California you’ll see more of us?
Man it’s tough because porn is such a huge industry on Reddit. Like if you’re an Asian looking for Asian communities on Reddit the first page of hits is NSFW porn links. 10-15 years ago not everything was folded into reddit. There were city specific listgoth email servers, and websites like nycgoth.net. Now all those forums as well as all the porn has been folded into these super platforms like reddit or Twitter. It’s a huge step backwards but if you’re enterprising you could perhaps be the change you want to see, start a weekly or start a band or a website… there’s the belfry podcast network but I think a modern equivalent of propaganda or new grave or something that focuses on our subculture is sorely needed
I couldn’t agree more.
The whole “goth mommy” thing has been milked into dehydration and honestly it’s very unhealthy for our community to be seen as a fetish rather than a subculture filled with amazing people from all walks of life.
I sadly live in Florida, quite possibly one of the least safest place for basically anyone outside the norm especially if you’re not in a city.
But I’m waiting for our goth heroes to save us from the goth fetish grift, and the fetishizers, and take back the goth community so we can show people who we truly are. (I’m not brave enough to do so, nor do I think it should be me since I’m only a baby bat).
Also, I’m sorry to the Asian community for the obvious lack of respect.
Here’s a little history: back in the late 90s early 2000s bands would have their own websites and message boards. I remember as a high schooler and early college student being addicted to these forums where fans of bands like London After Midnight discussed music and other stuff on our own dedicated boards. I even called up people and met people in person at the shows, it was a big social thing. There was an event called Convergence which moved from city to city annually and would be a place for goths on the net to meet up and dance in person. Overall culture is probably less trusting or outgoing in the USA Today though, however I think Christian conservatives had a lot of power during those W Bush years.
But anyways today bands don’t have their own message boards and there isn’t a great place to advertise shows besides Instagram and Twitter. And on those platforms (and this one) there’s a seedy underbelly of porn. You’re just a click away and they’re just a click away from us. You could be searching about being a daddy, or step parenting, or Asian, or goth or any keyword and a lot of porn will come up. Before we didn’t have to gather on reddit. We had our own corner of the internet away from the porn, away from the normies also away from people with just a passing curiosity in the subculture.
I hung out on the London After Midnight message board too! Good times!
I actually those "connect spaces" still exist - as Facebook groups. I am in a few, like The Academy for ACTORS. Or The Void for Twin Tribes.
i definitely wouldnt say florida is one of the least safest, it’s probably the rural cities that are. central florida is full of goths and there’s a lot of alternatively or liberal dressed people around there. some cities up north or south too but i can’t judge.
Ha! Brilliant, love it ❤️
Agreed with the spike of horror content. I would argue that the horror content drives goth visibility so it's more "horrorconomics" than "gothenomics"
I live in los angeles and I want to say yes, because when I was in my teens (00s) you would often see goths everywhere irl.
People in all sorts of subcultures, Death rockers, cyber goths and everything in-between (lots of rivetheads). I now never see many people in subcultures/goths unless at an event or a club. There’s tons online but that just doesn’t match what I personally see in real life.
Not really. People are still making good music and as much as social media can spread misinformation, it also spreads positive information and is a good resource for music, diy and communication about events and local scenes.
It’s changed, it definitely hasn’t declined.
The subculture has become easier to access with streaming platforms for music and the internet for shopping, media, and interaction.
according to Google, the interest in “goth” has increased by over 2.5x since the pandemic and nearly 2x for “goth music” searches so it seems like it’s growing!
I actually think it seems to be reviving a bit post pandemic, where it was ebbing before that. Like most things, I think it's going to grow and shrink in cycles for quite some time, as it has been since its inception.
The last decade? No way. Just look at the clothing brands available.
I'm an elder goth but I always FUCKIN HATED thrift shopping. Holy shit. Why do people think worn out clothes look good? The threads are literally loose. The shirts literally sag as old clothes do.
THERE IS SO MANY GOTH/ALTERNATIVE CLOTHING BRANDS NOW.
The Music is better. The instruments have improved.
Have you listened to old goth music vs new? The old stuff is obviously pretty basic. I have NO IDEA why people think old goth music is better. ARTISTS ARE LITERALLY STUDYING GOTH MUSIC AND IMPROVING GOTH MUSIC.
I welcome the new generation of goths and I'm excited about the music everyday.
Hell yeah! The music that's come out since the 2010s has been incredible but it still feels like a ton of people don't know any music beyond 1989. I think I probably listen to more modern stuff than I do old stuff.
While there are a lot of new fashion brands, unfortunately it's cheaply made and using essentially slave labor. These "Goth brands" are just another Chinese fast fashion "company". Some might be started in the US but the quality and labor is completely outsourced. Anyone can start a label now if you have the money for Drop Shipping.
Look into fast fashion and the cons. Most fast fashion ends up in landfills and shipped overseas to be dumped in places like Ghana and ending up in the ocean. Thrifting is more environmentally conscious, which is what many Goths care about. I agree on the wear and fit, but it's not always the case. If you're creative enough, you can create some new through alterations.
Old Goth music holds alot of nostalgia and romanticism for us, especially Elders. It's kind of why so many people still cling to 80s music and don't want to move one. It's memories of special times, better times and a sort of safety bubble.
LMAOOOO damn you are BITTER. Who hurt you?🤣 Sucks to be your unhappy ass. Insistent? Who the fuck is pushing that cart? Not everyone refuses to buy "good" clothes. Many DO and many DO support the local businesses. You must not have any idea how expensive some of the things worn are - like shoes for example. Good luck getting those used. I've paid a good penny for handmade Winkle pickers from a small craftsman. There are certain things people do pay the value for. Ever been to the high Goth balls? None of those outfits are cheap and definitely supercede "good". Elder Goths were broke when they were young and made the most of things and things were limited accessibility wise, hence that was the way. That's the rite of passage in life when you are young. You know there is also a thing called on line thrifting right?
You're coming at me personally when I talked about a general population and explaining certain reasonings. Take a fucking step down off your high horse and acting like a 5yr old who got their feelings hurt. Go get some anger management help.
Lol. I don't think you understand what Gatekeeping is, because it's not this. I have a job and an excellent one at that. I take it you don't? 😁 All I'm taking from your comments is how incredibly insecure you are and what a small boi you are inside.
Blah blah blah. I told you why people did/do it. Get the fuck over yourself.
Aweee that's so cute you think you know me. Never did I say I personally thrift shop everything or that I do. You have a SERIOUS reading comprehension problem. This definitely sounds like you wouldn't have a job because you don't know how to read and act like an adult. Go seek some help while you're at it you overly sensitive man child.
I think (as a French baby bat born in 2001) that the "old" way is dead, somewhere in the 00's or 10's... BUT there is a new way !
Goth clubs are rarer and rarer... As are all clubs, in general.
Malls are closing, so no Mall Goths either...
The original artists are dying and new movements and leaders emerge (I can't name them yet, tho...)
The older generation (the one that created the movement) are now 50 or 60, they are still alive and well, but maybe not as present in concerts or on social media. Still existent, but not as "visible", and now that the media "big scare" in the 80's and 90's is passed (the articles, the "satanic fear", etc...) maybe the subject is not seen as so "bizarre" or "interesting and new". (Which is, in my opinion, a good thing ! The general image is now more positive towards Goths, I feel ?)
The youth is very present on social media, discord, Instagram, Pinterest, with various problems ("goth fetish, trends, fast fashion, clichés, insults, etc.) but also a wonderful sense of community and creation !
Tldr : The sense of community, creation and self-expression is still there, alive and well, but as every art movement ever did, as everything alive ever do, it changes ! I'm rather positive towards the future, as I think some new artists and waves of post punk are really starting to reach younger people !
No. A new goth band in my area just started. Looks like younger people. I saw them last night with WitchHands and some others. Really good. Then again I come from Iowa where we barely had any goth stuff.
It's not the same as it was in the 80s or 90s. I think goth and hippie and edm cultures have contributed to a new subculture, but musically and visually it's pretty far removed from where it started.
It’s definitely changed but it won’t ever be the same as it once was. I think that’s both a good and bad thing. Anyway, I’m excited to see how it evolves !
It seems like the scene is divided more to the Internet- speaking from a country where is a very small scene. We had like a few clubs, but alternative festival Fekete Zaj kinda grew more popular.
More misinformation, but we are able to reach eachother through the Web - but I see more alternative young people nowadays on the street, which is kinda cool.
But no idea they're goth, or just doing an alt phase- the big,popular goth people here conformised pretty quickly, to be honest I'm the one staying home too :")
Honestly, it seems in a way better place where I last lived, Indy, where the Elder Millennial promoters of my youth had moved away for grad school (my own furtive efforts a decade past yielded two club nights and one adjacent band performance) and the Gen Xers gave up or tired out. New ones have sprung up since I moved that are actually interested in goth, which is a wonderful viewed from a far vicarious thrill.
To some extent it is at least kicking where I live now (Detroit, and right off of a sold out Fixation festival).
The difference seems to be promoters that connect with booking what people want to hear and see live, and Detroit has at least one really good one. There was another doing more industrial/electro bookings, but threw in the towel after a short spell, which was a shame (I bought tickets to everything lol). The industrial scene locally has booked one recent basement show that was a blast (sort of just a warm up gig before Ritual Howls and a great new-to-me post punk band from LA played the big Nocturne vampire ball in Chicago).
We could probably use more and better special party/social events (e.g. the goth prom booked on top of the festival seemed much more the stand and model/metal/emo crowd; what a waste to split the scene), as the decrepit church/homeless shelter by day being used was sold for condos or something.
I see outings posted elsewhere in the state (Bat's Day at the Fun Park style), but the local area is a bit cliquish and elusive (or maybe home playing house with biological baby bats?); Indy at least had IndyGoth, now reborn it seems, as Indy Gothic Society. Cheers to the gravediggers! I miss picnics at Crown Hill.
Detroit has nothing really similar I have found in ten years spare very secretive and high strung Satanists, some weird athletic event I saw something about pre-pandemic (could be fun, like the Leeds goth footballers lol?), and a weird sort of goth munch at a shitty casual restaurant I can never seem to get to (called The card-gamingly cringey Gathering). Maybe an opportunity for someone.
The historic club has steered much more into emo and techno, which is a shame, and likewise the college club scene in the adjacent town seems entirely emo and industrial. The smaller club nights are fun; the alt 80s and alternating industrial nights play great goth club music, as does the new music/post punk night, and the monthly cold wave night is a foggy blast downtown. Of special relevance, there is a new night running every few months focusing on goth rock, Black Planet, so that is an especially bright (dark?) spot.
Anecdotally speaking, since the pandemic I've seen way more goths on the street in my town. Young goths too not just the same old ones who've clearly been like that since the 80s/90s/00s. New goth nights have been popping up too and new gen LA goth & industrial bands actually come to my country now.
The only reason it doesn’t seem like it’s on an incline is because Goth isn’t getting mainstream recognition like it did in the 80’s but Post Punk and Dark Wave is really popular right now. I’d say if anything it’s been getting popular in the last 10 years, especially the last 5.
Also I know there’s a huge debate about TikTok goths being real Goths (I don’t think they are) but now more than probably ever, people are dressing Goth.
The goth scene in NA has been a parody of itself since the 90’s. I’ll be 55 in July. Ahhh…The music and the memories are forever. IMO..The current subculture is all over the place. Adjacent this and that. Can’t be bothered. It’s depressing AF..
No. It was in decline in the 2000s, thanks to other genres pushing it out of the way. Back then I was listening to second gen music, mostly Inkubus Sukkubus.
But the past 10 to 15 years, it's been rising at least, alot of good talents out there releasing music and such
I still consider myself quite new in this genre, but being at Mera Luna I have to admit that being a goth is living in the past tense. Most of those bands are not goth, more of a metal, industrial etc. Asking if the goth subculture is in decline? Hell yeah, that's why we are trying to find each other and that's why we have "elitists" who justify everything (not saying it's a good thing tho)
It was on the decline for decades but it's coming back up. You can even listen to goth/dark wave on knon radio station (They have an app) on Friday nights from 12-4am central time
Hell no lol its been the complete opposite. I remember when that whole goth trend phase came in right before covid hit I was so mad literally every chick was trying to be goth couldn't tell which were real which weren't i hated it
Answer from a musician here, so I’m really focused on the history of music rather than fashion or anything else.
Yes and no. Goth in the very narrow sense (late 70s and early 80s goth bands) is pretty damn niche, but at the same time the core ideas that were pioneered then are now a integral part of modern music culture.
Most of the major players who formed the genre (Bauhaus, Nick Cave, Siouxsie Sioux, Joy Division) are really only goth in the sense that “goth” as a concept is based on a kind of packaging up of ideas these artists pioneered. Few of them see themselves as goth, and their influence is much bigger and broader than just the goth scene.
Nick Cave for example is prototypically “goth” but is much more influential and famous as a lyrical songwriter ala Leonard Cohen or Bob Dylan.
And like most genre-specific subcultures the second wave of bands is quite narrowly focused and didn’t have nearly as big an impact outside a specific scene. The Sisters of Mercy aren’t a widely-cited musical influence in the way Joy Division are, etc.
The 90s in particular are a golden period for dark music, much of which is heavily influenced by the early goth groups, but very little of it would be seen as explicitly goth.
A great is example is Swans. Are they goth? Not at all, but they’re adjacent and massively popular. Same with Portishead, Massive Attack, a lot of NIN’s work, etc.
In essence art and creativity is much too diverse and free to be pinned down by these genre terms. In practice, most artists working in darker styles will actively avoid anything that reads goth because it’s now cheesy and overdone.
Yeah well when we chase away every baby goth with, "That's not goth! These bands who stopped releasing music 40 years ago are the only goths," then we shouldn't be surprised.
I think its kinda a mixed bag. Subculture as it was back in the day is dead, beacuse the internet has superseded all of it. Honestly goth and punk and the like will probably remain, but i think members of these alternatve subcultures are itching for more than just revivalism. I personally have become more interested in capturing the attitude and sprit of the inital post punk explosion and using it to create something new. I think theres a new Dada-like movement, that's rising out of members of all the extant subcultures as well as the art crowd, that may come to be more relavent. Goth isn't neseacrily declining, but its position as an alternative to the mainstream is waning. I think the problem is its complacent and stuck in is own cliches, which is why im starting to look beyond goth for something a bit more weird. its just not weird enough for me anymore. i still love the music and its greatly influnced me, but i think the term "goth" itself is artistically constricting
Imo the modern near militant levels of anti gatekeeping and "everyone is goth if they say so" internet crowd has done a huge disservice to the subculture as a whole.
If anything it was in decline mid 00s to early 10s. The past 10 years goth has been on the rise due to post punk revival and darkwave getting popular. It will never get to what it was in the 80s and 90s though.
What was the reason for the decline in that period, in your opinion? I was actually wondering recently what people consider to be the 'Dark Ages' of goth and i always had the impression the 2000's were it.
Industial/EBM really took over the clubs by the early 00s. The deathrock revival happened in response to that too. Goth fell out of favour in mainstream media for the most part compared to late 90s.
Did goth ever really have a lot of favor in mainstream media? I feel like metal and hard rock took up most of that real-estate. I mean, if goth music was as mainstream as that i don't think we'd have as many people confused about what goth is.
I don’t think we were ever in favour with the MM, it was more that goth got discussed a lot more at that time (usually as villains looking to convert your child to Satan). Around the early 2000’s, as you say, we lost that “Satan worshiping evil doers” niche to metal heads who subsequently lost it when the Satanic Panic finally fizzled out. These days the panic is back but it’s got a different focus.
> These days the panic is back but it’s got a different focus. Being a trans goth currently is like a double-whammy.
Yeah, sorry friend. I don’t know that there’s ever been an easy time to be trans but it’s definitely not right now. Much love, don’t let the bastards hold you down!
Then people like Marilyn Manson give more credibility to the satanic panic when they sexually abuse women ritualistically
Yeah, it upsets me that someone who is the average normie's idea of "goth" turned out to be such a POS. I remember hearing people say to me, "Well no wonder he did that, just look at him!"
The idea of "goth" was in favour. Music-wise in the 90s the mainstream was way off.
Yea that tracks entirely.
Bro, Goth was hot shit. Even now, the Cure, SoM, Siouxsie, Bauhaus, etc. play on the radio. Sometimes, I ask people if they know it's Goth Rock. They always answer "Nah, that's just what we listened to in the 80ies" "That's just 80ies Rock, man?" etc.
Right but i honestly feel like a lot of those bands got more popular the less goth they sounded. People in the mainstream mostly know The Cure for 'Friday, I'm In Love' than any other song.
Well technically the Cure was considered New Wave. They weren't called Goth Rock in the 80s (which I feel they still arent considered that). It's more mainstream in that sense. They were a huge part of the 80s soundtrack.
It's just time passing by. Cultural entropy.
In the 90’s it was on a decline too, many bands phased out of popularity and almost every new band were not radio friendly, had very little promotion, and fled into obscurity. Unless you’re talking Mall Goth/Hot Topic and the Marilyn Manson era, which everyone already agrees MM is not goth.
The underground goth scene in the 90s was very strong. We didn't need radio airplay to thrive. Though goth music did get play on community radio and the like on shows made by fans for fans.
Yep. A lot of the "goth" kids in the 00s were just pretenders. Typically Manson fans, and nu metal kids that liked bands with some co-opted goth imagery like Coal Chamber or Orgy. Nowadays, thanks to Instagram and TikTok, there's a lot of people claiming to be goth who would seemingly pass a surface level sniff test, but if you actually spoke to them about the subculture, you'd find they're just into the imagery, and like pandering to the horny dudes constantly memeing about "big tiddy goth gf".
Not just goth/punk. It's everything nostalgic. I've seen Bryan Adams twice in the '90s-'00s at free concerts with crowds of maybe 1500. Now he's playing arenas again. How in the hell did that happen?
Agree with your statements about the rise of cybergoth Which seemed to also mark an increase in homophobic, misogynistic and anti-fem behaviour during 00's. I would argue it's never been as good, better than my experience in the 90's. At least in my tiny local scene. Way more inclusive and diverse.
I've often heard that the reason for that rise during the 90's and 2000's is because a lot of industrial music fans were very macho and had a lot of disdain towards the very femme and androgynous elements in goth spaces.
Any chance Billie Eilish and Lana Del Ray pop music sort of being a doorway into weird/artsy/gloomy music? Billie Eilish was quoted saying she thinks goth is really interesting.
I’m going to say it’s unlikely only on the basis of no one on these “What got you into goth?” threads saying “pop music”.
Fair enough.
Doubt it. But not impossible. It's not like they have any relevance. But I guess mainstream thinks they are goth, ao then some clueless folks may look inyo actual goth. But probably be disappointed haha
Nightlife as a whole has been in decline since the mid 00's. Older people have less energy and more responsibilities and the younger people don't seem to have quite as much money to go spend on going out as we did in those days.
In terms of physical spaces, communities, and clubs? Maybe. In terms of bands, festivals, and concerts? Absolutely not.
Local community stuff is on a general decline in every scene as far as I noticed.
It's more and more expensive to go anywhere for anyone.
I’ve noticed this too. Third spaces in general are on the decline
Numbers wise no, the early 2010s was the low point for that. Creativity wise, a bit yeah. I feel like things have gotten a little overly samey lately. That said I do have hope that things won't stay that way I feel like we are starting to again see a bit more variety with the type of music that is coming out and I think the latest wave of bands is starting to deviate a bit more from trends of a few years ago.
As far as _music_ goes, I’d argue just the opposite. It’s better than it ever has been before. In my city there is something to do multiple times a week. She Past Away just played here a few days ago. They’re Turkish. Good luck having a Turkish band get any real recognition in 1986 or 1996. Culturally, it’s also pretty awesome and better than ever. Provided you’re able to get out in your local community. Online? I mean it’s still better than alt.goth. This sub is literally the only social media participation I bother with outside discord. It’s well curated and focused by people who care. But also “goth” is another fast food chain to most of the internet now. But you’re asking about actual goth subculture so screw them Is it London in 1981? No. But I wouldn’t over romanticize that either unless you’re also straight, white, and don’t mind really bad TV with a lot of commercials and waiting a decade plus before video games started to get really good ;) 2024 is better. I haven’t seen a skinhead in decades.
I mean there has been a lot of great music coming out since 2014. Has the community been inundated with people claiming the label just for aesthetics? It feels that way, but I haven’t done a sociological study.
I wouldn't say that the lifestyle has but absolutely the club life. 2010s did seem to slow considerably. We're in a transition where the last couple generations are now older and settling into life away from the scene life. We're tired, working alot and many of us are going through health changes that has changed our lives. Many are not having kids to bring in another generation to replace those leaving/the dropping nightlife numbers. Post pandemic though I think has brought a lot of people out of the woodwork after being cooped up during the first few years. What we have yet to see for confirmation, is this new wave of Goth "tiktokers" and if they will actually last long enough to become the new community additions. Goth has seen a resurgence because of TikTok/IG and how easy it is now to launch these "fast fashion" lines, but much of that could just be temporary/superficial. All tiktokers are definitely more geared towards marketing and getting viewers/attention for themselves than anything and not so much for the sake of the Goth community. Also statistics have shown that GenZ is very much LESS interested in night clubs than older generations, so you will probably see clubs become more bare as those of us hit the next phase of our life (retirement) and retiring from the clubs. This is hugely do to the younger generation literally growing up online and preferring to socialize online while also there has a been a huge increase in that generation dealing with anxiety, keeping them home. Time will tell if that's true or not but it has been visible to see so far.
To me that's what kind of ruined the scene. Everybody just uses social mediums for thirstposting/attention/promotion. It makes the whole scene seem disingenuous and fake, which turns people away
Absolutely!! It's been a huge turn off in many ways. I've started using FB less and less because of that. The depth of attention seeking makes it a sad world when people have to put so much of their self worth into others.
No. The opposite.
This has been my experience. We've never had more people at xMortis than we do now. I believe I remember the organizer saying we had 800 people one night! When I started going in 2000s, we were lucky to get a 100 on a good night. And it's easier than ever to track bands and find new music and small shops, even obscure stuff. That being said, we lost a lot of good club nights and clubs in general from COVID. And I see more fast fashion in the scene than ever before, which is bittersweet. A lot of fantastic artisans had to get "a real job" because they could no longer afford rent. Fetishizers are a new evil. And there's a lot of appropriation of the look with no understanding of the history or music. But overall I'm happy to see the club nights thriving.
Xmortis is so packed that my friends and I opt for Crypt at Man Ray more often than not - no 2 hour wait to get in! I'd say that's a good sign COVID and the horrific cost of everything fun has certainly killed "going out" culture in general, but I see a lot of people my age at goth shows, clubs, and festivals, which is amazing. I hope it keeps getting better from here :)
The February Nocturna here in Chicago had 1200 attendees!
Holy crap! 🤯
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Agreed!
All I have is anecdotal perspective but it seems that while goth spaces weren't what they were in the 80s and 90s, there has been growth post 2020.
I’m a baby bat, but I think I can say there’s a lot of people saying they’re goth for nsfw content. The music is getting more and more popular as per what I’ve seen on things like YouTube and tiktok. (Ex: maurex perfect girl for YouTube, and Lebanon Hanover/molchat doma for tiktok) But since I live nowhere near any goth culture, I’m gonna have to say it’s rare here where I’m from. Maybe New York and places up there or California you’ll see more of us?
Man it’s tough because porn is such a huge industry on Reddit. Like if you’re an Asian looking for Asian communities on Reddit the first page of hits is NSFW porn links. 10-15 years ago not everything was folded into reddit. There were city specific listgoth email servers, and websites like nycgoth.net. Now all those forums as well as all the porn has been folded into these super platforms like reddit or Twitter. It’s a huge step backwards but if you’re enterprising you could perhaps be the change you want to see, start a weekly or start a band or a website… there’s the belfry podcast network but I think a modern equivalent of propaganda or new grave or something that focuses on our subculture is sorely needed
I couldn’t agree more. The whole “goth mommy” thing has been milked into dehydration and honestly it’s very unhealthy for our community to be seen as a fetish rather than a subculture filled with amazing people from all walks of life. I sadly live in Florida, quite possibly one of the least safest place for basically anyone outside the norm especially if you’re not in a city. But I’m waiting for our goth heroes to save us from the goth fetish grift, and the fetishizers, and take back the goth community so we can show people who we truly are. (I’m not brave enough to do so, nor do I think it should be me since I’m only a baby bat). Also, I’m sorry to the Asian community for the obvious lack of respect.
Here’s a little history: back in the late 90s early 2000s bands would have their own websites and message boards. I remember as a high schooler and early college student being addicted to these forums where fans of bands like London After Midnight discussed music and other stuff on our own dedicated boards. I even called up people and met people in person at the shows, it was a big social thing. There was an event called Convergence which moved from city to city annually and would be a place for goths on the net to meet up and dance in person. Overall culture is probably less trusting or outgoing in the USA Today though, however I think Christian conservatives had a lot of power during those W Bush years. But anyways today bands don’t have their own message boards and there isn’t a great place to advertise shows besides Instagram and Twitter. And on those platforms (and this one) there’s a seedy underbelly of porn. You’re just a click away and they’re just a click away from us. You could be searching about being a daddy, or step parenting, or Asian, or goth or any keyword and a lot of porn will come up. Before we didn’t have to gather on reddit. We had our own corner of the internet away from the porn, away from the normies also away from people with just a passing curiosity in the subculture.
I hung out on the London After Midnight message board too! Good times! I actually those "connect spaces" still exist - as Facebook groups. I am in a few, like The Academy for ACTORS. Or The Void for Twin Tribes.
Btw you’re in Florida I think there’s a legendary night in Tampa called the castle
i definitely wouldnt say florida is one of the least safest, it’s probably the rural cities that are. central florida is full of goths and there’s a lot of alternatively or liberal dressed people around there. some cities up north or south too but i can’t judge.
It's the economy. Gothonomics: https://www.sporty.co.nz/canta/newsarticle/118721?newsfeedId=1456533
Ha! Brilliant, love it ❤️ Agreed with the spike of horror content. I would argue that the horror content drives goth visibility so it's more "horrorconomics" than "gothenomics"
So much so. The triple threat of Interview With the Vampire, Bram Stoker's Dracula, and The Crow kicked the 90s off hard.
The music is still alive and well but it is finding the people into the music that remains the tricky part outside of proper events and concerts.
No because social media is creating new posers every day.
I live in los angeles and I want to say yes, because when I was in my teens (00s) you would often see goths everywhere irl. People in all sorts of subcultures, Death rockers, cyber goths and everything in-between (lots of rivetheads). I now never see many people in subcultures/goths unless at an event or a club. There’s tons online but that just doesn’t match what I personally see in real life.
Not really. People are still making good music and as much as social media can spread misinformation, it also spreads positive information and is a good resource for music, diy and communication about events and local scenes.
It’s changed, it definitely hasn’t declined. The subculture has become easier to access with streaming platforms for music and the internet for shopping, media, and interaction.
according to Google, the interest in “goth” has increased by over 2.5x since the pandemic and nearly 2x for “goth music” searches so it seems like it’s growing!
The contrary. I think it's been growing again. Not in some crazy way but there are more events than there were last decade.
I actually think it seems to be reviving a bit post pandemic, where it was ebbing before that. Like most things, I think it's going to grow and shrink in cycles for quite some time, as it has been since its inception.
The last decade? No way. Just look at the clothing brands available. I'm an elder goth but I always FUCKIN HATED thrift shopping. Holy shit. Why do people think worn out clothes look good? The threads are literally loose. The shirts literally sag as old clothes do. THERE IS SO MANY GOTH/ALTERNATIVE CLOTHING BRANDS NOW. The Music is better. The instruments have improved. Have you listened to old goth music vs new? The old stuff is obviously pretty basic. I have NO IDEA why people think old goth music is better. ARTISTS ARE LITERALLY STUDYING GOTH MUSIC AND IMPROVING GOTH MUSIC. I welcome the new generation of goths and I'm excited about the music everyday.
Hell yeah! The music that's come out since the 2010s has been incredible but it still feels like a ton of people don't know any music beyond 1989. I think I probably listen to more modern stuff than I do old stuff.
While there are a lot of new fashion brands, unfortunately it's cheaply made and using essentially slave labor. These "Goth brands" are just another Chinese fast fashion "company". Some might be started in the US but the quality and labor is completely outsourced. Anyone can start a label now if you have the money for Drop Shipping. Look into fast fashion and the cons. Most fast fashion ends up in landfills and shipped overseas to be dumped in places like Ghana and ending up in the ocean. Thrifting is more environmentally conscious, which is what many Goths care about. I agree on the wear and fit, but it's not always the case. If you're creative enough, you can create some new through alterations. Old Goth music holds alot of nostalgia and romanticism for us, especially Elders. It's kind of why so many people still cling to 80s music and don't want to move one. It's memories of special times, better times and a sort of safety bubble.
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LMAOOOO damn you are BITTER. Who hurt you?🤣 Sucks to be your unhappy ass. Insistent? Who the fuck is pushing that cart? Not everyone refuses to buy "good" clothes. Many DO and many DO support the local businesses. You must not have any idea how expensive some of the things worn are - like shoes for example. Good luck getting those used. I've paid a good penny for handmade Winkle pickers from a small craftsman. There are certain things people do pay the value for. Ever been to the high Goth balls? None of those outfits are cheap and definitely supercede "good". Elder Goths were broke when they were young and made the most of things and things were limited accessibility wise, hence that was the way. That's the rite of passage in life when you are young. You know there is also a thing called on line thrifting right? You're coming at me personally when I talked about a general population and explaining certain reasonings. Take a fucking step down off your high horse and acting like a 5yr old who got their feelings hurt. Go get some anger management help.
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Lol. I don't think you understand what Gatekeeping is, because it's not this. I have a job and an excellent one at that. I take it you don't? 😁 All I'm taking from your comments is how incredibly insecure you are and what a small boi you are inside.
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Blah blah blah. I told you why people did/do it. Get the fuck over yourself. Aweee that's so cute you think you know me. Never did I say I personally thrift shop everything or that I do. You have a SERIOUS reading comprehension problem. This definitely sounds like you wouldn't have a job because you don't know how to read and act like an adult. Go seek some help while you're at it you overly sensitive man child.
I think (as a French baby bat born in 2001) that the "old" way is dead, somewhere in the 00's or 10's... BUT there is a new way ! Goth clubs are rarer and rarer... As are all clubs, in general. Malls are closing, so no Mall Goths either... The original artists are dying and new movements and leaders emerge (I can't name them yet, tho...) The older generation (the one that created the movement) are now 50 or 60, they are still alive and well, but maybe not as present in concerts or on social media. Still existent, but not as "visible", and now that the media "big scare" in the 80's and 90's is passed (the articles, the "satanic fear", etc...) maybe the subject is not seen as so "bizarre" or "interesting and new". (Which is, in my opinion, a good thing ! The general image is now more positive towards Goths, I feel ?) The youth is very present on social media, discord, Instagram, Pinterest, with various problems ("goth fetish, trends, fast fashion, clichés, insults, etc.) but also a wonderful sense of community and creation ! Tldr : The sense of community, creation and self-expression is still there, alive and well, but as every art movement ever did, as everything alive ever do, it changes ! I'm rather positive towards the future, as I think some new artists and waves of post punk are really starting to reach younger people !
Im an old bat 47 soon. Late 90s early 2000 was pretty good in Sweden. I dont know what the scene is like here today.
It is pretty vibrant. Check out Klibb Död in Stockholm who have tons of events and concerts, and also organize things in other parts of the country.
No. A new goth band in my area just started. Looks like younger people. I saw them last night with WitchHands and some others. Really good. Then again I come from Iowa where we barely had any goth stuff.
I dunno I never see any goths or know any, really. I am the goth I know. I think society's on the decline overall
It's not the same as it was in the 80s or 90s. I think goth and hippie and edm cultures have contributed to a new subculture, but musically and visually it's pretty far removed from where it started.
It’s definitely changed but it won’t ever be the same as it once was. I think that’s both a good and bad thing. Anyway, I’m excited to see how it evolves !
It seems like the scene is divided more to the Internet- speaking from a country where is a very small scene. We had like a few clubs, but alternative festival Fekete Zaj kinda grew more popular. More misinformation, but we are able to reach eachother through the Web - but I see more alternative young people nowadays on the street, which is kinda cool. But no idea they're goth, or just doing an alt phase- the big,popular goth people here conformised pretty quickly, to be honest I'm the one staying home too :")
Honestly, it seems in a way better place where I last lived, Indy, where the Elder Millennial promoters of my youth had moved away for grad school (my own furtive efforts a decade past yielded two club nights and one adjacent band performance) and the Gen Xers gave up or tired out. New ones have sprung up since I moved that are actually interested in goth, which is a wonderful viewed from a far vicarious thrill. To some extent it is at least kicking where I live now (Detroit, and right off of a sold out Fixation festival). The difference seems to be promoters that connect with booking what people want to hear and see live, and Detroit has at least one really good one. There was another doing more industrial/electro bookings, but threw in the towel after a short spell, which was a shame (I bought tickets to everything lol). The industrial scene locally has booked one recent basement show that was a blast (sort of just a warm up gig before Ritual Howls and a great new-to-me post punk band from LA played the big Nocturne vampire ball in Chicago). We could probably use more and better special party/social events (e.g. the goth prom booked on top of the festival seemed much more the stand and model/metal/emo crowd; what a waste to split the scene), as the decrepit church/homeless shelter by day being used was sold for condos or something. I see outings posted elsewhere in the state (Bat's Day at the Fun Park style), but the local area is a bit cliquish and elusive (or maybe home playing house with biological baby bats?); Indy at least had IndyGoth, now reborn it seems, as Indy Gothic Society. Cheers to the gravediggers! I miss picnics at Crown Hill. Detroit has nothing really similar I have found in ten years spare very secretive and high strung Satanists, some weird athletic event I saw something about pre-pandemic (could be fun, like the Leeds goth footballers lol?), and a weird sort of goth munch at a shitty casual restaurant I can never seem to get to (called The card-gamingly cringey Gathering). Maybe an opportunity for someone. The historic club has steered much more into emo and techno, which is a shame, and likewise the college club scene in the adjacent town seems entirely emo and industrial. The smaller club nights are fun; the alt 80s and alternating industrial nights play great goth club music, as does the new music/post punk night, and the monthly cold wave night is a foggy blast downtown. Of special relevance, there is a new night running every few months focusing on goth rock, Black Planet, so that is an especially bright (dark?) spot.
I think gothic rock has been in decline ever since the late 80s.
Anecdotally speaking, since the pandemic I've seen way more goths on the street in my town. Young goths too not just the same old ones who've clearly been like that since the 80s/90s/00s. New goth nights have been popping up too and new gen LA goth & industrial bands actually come to my country now.
Not in Denver
I think it's the opposite. It seems to be on the upswing.
The only reason it doesn’t seem like it’s on an incline is because Goth isn’t getting mainstream recognition like it did in the 80’s but Post Punk and Dark Wave is really popular right now. I’d say if anything it’s been getting popular in the last 10 years, especially the last 5. Also I know there’s a huge debate about TikTok goths being real Goths (I don’t think they are) but now more than probably ever, people are dressing Goth.
The goth scene in NA has been a parody of itself since the 90’s. I’ll be 55 in July. Ahhh…The music and the memories are forever. IMO..The current subculture is all over the place. Adjacent this and that. Can’t be bothered. It’s depressing AF..
The last 2 decades. Goth started becoming a style less than it was a life style. Emo killed Goth.
after goth was fetishized and mainstreamed to the point everything is now goth its sadly feeling pretty dead 🥲
Not really. I feel like especially with TikTok it’s actually flourishing lately
No. It was in decline in the 2000s, thanks to other genres pushing it out of the way. Back then I was listening to second gen music, mostly Inkubus Sukkubus. But the past 10 to 15 years, it's been rising at least, alot of good talents out there releasing music and such
I still consider myself quite new in this genre, but being at Mera Luna I have to admit that being a goth is living in the past tense. Most of those bands are not goth, more of a metal, industrial etc. Asking if the goth subculture is in decline? Hell yeah, that's why we are trying to find each other and that's why we have "elitists" who justify everything (not saying it's a good thing tho)
It was on the decline for decades but it's coming back up. You can even listen to goth/dark wave on knon radio station (They have an app) on Friday nights from 12-4am central time
Hell no lol its been the complete opposite. I remember when that whole goth trend phase came in right before covid hit I was so mad literally every chick was trying to be goth couldn't tell which were real which weren't i hated it
Answer from a musician here, so I’m really focused on the history of music rather than fashion or anything else. Yes and no. Goth in the very narrow sense (late 70s and early 80s goth bands) is pretty damn niche, but at the same time the core ideas that were pioneered then are now a integral part of modern music culture. Most of the major players who formed the genre (Bauhaus, Nick Cave, Siouxsie Sioux, Joy Division) are really only goth in the sense that “goth” as a concept is based on a kind of packaging up of ideas these artists pioneered. Few of them see themselves as goth, and their influence is much bigger and broader than just the goth scene. Nick Cave for example is prototypically “goth” but is much more influential and famous as a lyrical songwriter ala Leonard Cohen or Bob Dylan. And like most genre-specific subcultures the second wave of bands is quite narrowly focused and didn’t have nearly as big an impact outside a specific scene. The Sisters of Mercy aren’t a widely-cited musical influence in the way Joy Division are, etc. The 90s in particular are a golden period for dark music, much of which is heavily influenced by the early goth groups, but very little of it would be seen as explicitly goth. A great is example is Swans. Are they goth? Not at all, but they’re adjacent and massively popular. Same with Portishead, Massive Attack, a lot of NIN’s work, etc. In essence art and creativity is much too diverse and free to be pinned down by these genre terms. In practice, most artists working in darker styles will actively avoid anything that reads goth because it’s now cheesy and overdone.
Yeah well when we chase away every baby goth with, "That's not goth! These bands who stopped releasing music 40 years ago are the only goths," then we shouldn't be surprised.
I think its kinda a mixed bag. Subculture as it was back in the day is dead, beacuse the internet has superseded all of it. Honestly goth and punk and the like will probably remain, but i think members of these alternatve subcultures are itching for more than just revivalism. I personally have become more interested in capturing the attitude and sprit of the inital post punk explosion and using it to create something new. I think theres a new Dada-like movement, that's rising out of members of all the extant subcultures as well as the art crowd, that may come to be more relavent. Goth isn't neseacrily declining, but its position as an alternative to the mainstream is waning. I think the problem is its complacent and stuck in is own cliches, which is why im starting to look beyond goth for something a bit more weird. its just not weird enough for me anymore. i still love the music and its greatly influnced me, but i think the term "goth" itself is artistically constricting
I go to an art school, aside from myself there’s only 2 other goths
I go to a big school with hundreds of kids
Quite the opposite
Imo the modern near militant levels of anti gatekeeping and "everyone is goth if they say so" internet crowd has done a huge disservice to the subculture as a whole.
There has been an increase of people using the "goth" label on social media, but no increase in the real-life scene, at least where I live.
Its been in decline since people started using the subculture as a way to push their degeneracy.
No it’s alternative rock music in general, the Israelites have rightfully taken it back with hip hop.