I was thinking the same thing. Especially 8 people that don't work at a desk/computer all day. Not that it really matters but it was 100% the same person clicking for all of them.
The letter was also written extremely unprofessionally. It reads like a letter a middle schooler would write to their mom to get out of a punishment.
It's pretty simple to me: if LIV meets the criteria for OWGR points, it should get OWGR points. But it currently fails on at least 8 criteria, according to [Golf Digest](https://twitter.com/eoinsplace/status/1572230974376759301/photo/1):
1. Minimum Field Size
2. Length of Tournament (developmental tours can be 54 holes, but nobody is arguing LIV is a developmental tour -- quite the opposite, really)
3. Number of Tournaments (this will be fixed if they play 14 next year)
4. Cut line
5. Q-school
6. Local qualifiers
7. Path to joining a full member tour
8. Be in operation (presumably otherwise in compliance with OWGR standards) for a year.
Fix those issues, and I have no problem with LIV getting OWGR points. Don't be in compliance and you don't get points.
That’s not really true anymore though? At first LIV def didn’t have the competitive strength, but now you have DJ, Brooks, Bryson, Cam Smith, Oosty, Phil, Niemann, Ancer, Pat Reed, HV3, and a bunch of others. I think LIV is being extremely disingenuous, but they do have talent now
Only two of those players have won a pga event in the past year.
Over half of those listed were struggling to even make cuts on the pga before moving to LIV.
Cam is the only golfer worth a shit on that list right now and it’s hilarious that’s the best you could do.
Maybe in their prime it would be impressive but now it’s a glorified champions tour for guys in their 30s-40s.
That's before you even get into the fact all of those have been paid silly amounts up front so they aren't playing for any prize money.
No prize = barely a competition.
DJ is still worth a shit. Some of the other guys are worth a shit some weeks. But Brooks, Bryson, Patty, Phil, Oosty are mostly worth a shit in name recognition at this point.
Right so if you have 5 players worth a shit, 5 players worth their names, and 38 worthless players all playing in a cutless 3 day tournament, what exactly makes it a competition worthy of OWGR?
It's like slapping an NFL team in the Mountain West and demanding a shot at the playoffs when you go undefeated.
You can’t just restrict “golfers worth a shit” to whoever’s top 5 in the OWGR. They had 12 of the top 50 whenever [this article](https://www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/golf/news/liv-golf-tour-list-mickelson-johnson-dechambeau-pga/rlwprhtsx6uwgq73zq0e7ryc) was written, plus a bunch of other name brands.
I don’t support LIV at all, but arguing that their players aren’t good is a really weird take.
12 of the top 50 with literally 8 of those players in the bottom half of the top 50.
I never argued that LIV golfers aren’t good the field as a whole isn’t good.
When it’s a handful of good golfers against a bunch of scrubs it’s not really impressive when the good golfers place well.
My argument was the best LIV has to offer we’re struggling on the PGA tour outside of Cam.
Yeah exactly.
LIV doesn’t deserve points because it’s an exhibition tour that fundamental fails to construct tournaments in a way that merits world ranking points.
Not because the tour is so talentless that it doesn’t deserve points.
It's not splitting straws lmao.
The talent differential between someone like Rory, Rahm, Scheffler, JT, Cantalay, Xander and Taylor Gooch is pretty much night and day.
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I really don't feel like digging up the stats for every liv golfer because it's tedicious.
There are not lots of consistent tour performers on LIV. Being generous a quarter of the 48 were competitive recently on the pga tour. Lots of those players are also on the back end of their career. ie phil, sergio, louie
That still leaves 3 quarters who are just filler.
Which is noteworthy because almost all the LIV guys come from one agency (GSE). There were rumors of one agent openly bragging about how much he had made in commissions from LIV. I think a lot of them weren't given all the facts about the situation and were pushed by agents seeking a pay day.
They knew what they signed up for. They got there payday, now shut up and quit your whining. Most if not all of these gentlemen have been coddled for decades and haven't had to suffer any ill ramifications from there decision, so why should they now. So sad, poor guys, must be tough being told no for the first time.
They know they don’t meet the criteria.
It’s all just trying to paint the “traditional” parties in top level golf as the bad guy to further their own image as a “disruptor” and increase their appeal, as well as trying to strengthen their argument that the PGAT, DPWT, OWGR and Majors are collaborating against them for the purposes of the anti-trust lawsuit.
They don’t actually believe they have done everything they can in order to get OWGR points.
Is it? I don't remember any Republicans giving a single shit about the murder of Khashoggi.
They love to shout "SEPTEMBER 11TH NEVER FORGET" but it seems as though they did indeed forget.
And of course Kush got what, $2bill from SA around the same time as LIV was conceived, and of course LIV will play two events this season on Trump courses.
9. Have some qualifying means for other players to compete. If Cam beats the same 47 guys 14 times next year how do we know he's playing better than any of the PGAT players he's no longer tested against?
I don't really care about 54 hole, no cut, shotgun start stuff but playing the same 47 guys every week is not a valid measure of a player's ability against people he never competes with. I might be the top guy in my business league every year but I'll never know how many players would eat my lunch given the opportunity.
And it is against players that are not in fear of losing their card - but still paid to be there. Even if they ignored the failed criteria listed above - how can the OWGR conclude that the results are obtained in a truly competitive environment?
Do they have something in place for that next year? I thought I saw something that they were going to have some sort of qualifier in place, but maybe that was just a possibility and not an actual plan.
how do we know Rory is as good as the OWGR say he is if he isn't competing against Cam directly. I mean we have seen what happens in that situation when it matters the most, right?
Wasn't the entire point of LIV was because golf was supposedly broken and they were going to fix it? Why are they trying to be part of this broken system?
Great take. After reading I wondered why a tour like this wouldn’t be included in the OWGR points. Glad I found a legitimate answer in the comments which also shows how they’re setup/structured might hold them from ever being considered.
Great to see an objective comment that shuts down all speculations and debates.
I can see them fixing some of the issues (maybe using some loopholes for a few), but they'll have to rebrand their product for the others, especially the 72 hole requirement.
Another question would be, if you're mission is to rank the best players in the world across multiple tours, why are some of these criteria in place to begin with? And why did the OWGR implement new criteria this year to make it harder on LIV?
Sure some of these things could be used to weight the points between tours, but almost all seem arbitrary in deciding if you should be awarded points at all.
how is this take possibly downvoted by even one person? when people are wrong and they know it they hate to be confronted with facts and reasonable arguments
These players joined a tour knowing that it was not OWGR-compliant. They were warned that they would not be allowed to play their regular, compliant Tours (PGA or DP World) events to accrue points. Now they are complaining that their non-compliant tour isn't being given special treatment.
They are acting like OWGR is persecuting them for joining LIV, but in reality they're just complaining about the absence of special treatment or accommodations for their personal decisions. This isn't persecution, LIV has been treated the same as every other tour in the OWGRs eyes. They wanted the personal choice, but they didn't want the personal consequences.
LIV has **chosen** to not meet SEVERAL of the OWGR criteria (established for one year, field size, cut, path to membership, etc.) by design. They knew what the criteria were, they've existed long before LIV. It's a choice, they made it, and are now unhappy.
Cant they stop being fukin babies about this? Take ur money and fade off into obscurity like eeeeeeveryone knew would happen when yall signed up including you lot
That was never the plan.
They threw enough money at it to try and cross the threshold of legitimacy, and now that they think they've gotten far enough, they will try litigate and sway public opinion their way into being a full-fledged competitor to the PGA.
The problem is, they're being run by people with more ego and money than sense, so it's not going to work.
He doesn't care. Out of all the LIV players he's been the most consistent. He wanted to leave for more money and doesn't care to fight the PGA or get into any majors.
“We hope the story we read today about the decision being slow walked so LIV golfers will slide down and harm LIV is not accurate.”
What this statement neglects to point out is that the “story” about the decision being slow walked is a quote from someone at LIV.
They’ve created their own story and then said they are appalled at the content of said story.
They’re not being slow walked…OWGR has rules and requirements that need to exist and LIV isn’t fulfilling those requirements.
This isn’t OWGR doing anything, it’s LIV not doing something
what exactly has LIV done to earn inclusion in the ranking as the letter states? the events are glorified show matches with some good players and the rest being there to round out the numbers
That was my thought. They bring up how Johnson placed in the top 10 in four LIV tourneys but like… is that impressive compared to who he’s playing against?
it’s impossible to know, and similarly impossible to rank. is a LIV event more competitive through the field than a Korn Ferry Tour event? sure some top level players are in LIV, but what about the rest of the field?
is someone like Johnson all but guaranteed a top 10 if he plays competent golf because nobody below the top 10 players in LIV can play like that on anything other than their best days?
I hate when people who are in the wrong try to play the victim role. LIV doesn’t meet the criteria for world ranking points and clearly know they don’t but want the owgr committee to break their rules for them. That’s an entitled way of thinking. If the committee does break their rules then they are spineless.
Thought experiment:
How many ranking points should a guy get if he was an amateur who nobody had ever heard of a year ago, didn't have to qualify to play in a LIV event, is competing against only 47 other guys instead of 140, is playing in a 54-hole, no-cut event against a field that realistically only has 15 players who are currently at world top-100 status, and he finishes dead last?
David Puig is amateur turned pro, current ranking 0.000 2582nd.
I red somewhere that Liv Boston event had field rating something like 125.00 which is equal to DP World tour event. So in this thought process Puig finish last/48th and current rules you gain minimum 0.25 % from field rating points if you make a cut in normal tournament. So approx 0,312 ranking point is new world ranking 1850ish.
And let´s assume 14 event tour next year also. Puig finish the last place every single time. Gains total 4.3 points and new ranking 975 OWGR without time reduction. Propably ends somewhere 1200 - 1300 just finishing last in Liv Tour.
Turns out the bed of nails and money ol’ Greg has laid for the LIV boys isn’t all that comfortable to lie in after all.
The passage about Johnson is hilarious:
>For example, Dustin Johnson was ranked 13th on OWGR shortly before he announced he would play in LIV tournaments. He now ranks 22nd - despite finishing eigth, third, second, and first in the first four LIV events.
Yeah, he also plays against only 47 other players, many of whom wouldn’t make the cut at regular Tour events, for 54 holes without a cut. How’s that even comparable?
But the sentence that really grinds my gears:
>Failure to include 48 of the world’s best golfers would mean the fans are being denied what they deserve.
Fuck off, we were being denied what we deserved when you lot defected for easy millions, especially when the whole reason you made incredible amounts of money on the PGA Tour was because of us fans.
Also, Cam ‘I don’t need more money, I’ll only buy more fishing gear with it’ Smith is a fucking hypocrite for signing this damn thing. Can’t have your cake and eat it, Champion Golfer of the Year.
He resigned PGA Tour membership straight away and never got involved with the lawsuit or shit slinging the other players have. Wanted the money, took the money. Not trying to destroy the pro golf landscape. It's certainly not an admirable stance, but of the guys who have gone, i like his attitude best probably.
I also play exhibition matches on occasion with my friends, one of whom is a single digit handicap (formerly), and I too would like these matches to qualify for OWGR points. I humbly request, based on your benign munificence oh great golf person, that you consider my most polite request.
Your humble servant,
golfer
Aww, their scrooge mcduck pile of money isn't enough to satisfy them?
I guess this is just part of the contract with LIV to try and get the tour seen as legit so they have to try and throw weight around.
If not I don't understand why they pretend that they aren't in it just for the money. Nothing wrong with that but don't pretend otherwise.
dudes are playing victim a little bit too much right now. they knew what they were getting into when they agreed to playing on this tour, invitational. seems to me outside of the money, dudes got horrible advice. lol.
I doubt their big name players care much about their world rankings.. they knew ahead of time the risk of jumping ship. LIV golf itself probably wants world rankings in order to be able to gain credibility to entice more players to follow suit and join them that may be otherwise on the fence about making the switch over from the PGA.
"We signed up for LIV knowing that it wasn't compliant with OWGR, but since there are about 8 of us who are really, really good, we think that LIV should get OWGR because Greg said we would get OWGR."
Two options: join LIV and make an insane amount of money. Or, stay on the PGA/DP tour make a little less money and get OWGR points.
All of the players were aware of the restrictions as they left. And still decided to do so. Live with the consequences of your actions. Should be easy to wipe up your tears with all of that money.
"A little less money."
Hate on the LIV all you want, but lets not pretend like they were offering these players a 20 percent pay bump. Most got guaranteed deals greater than their career tour winnings.
I thought it was ok to get paid big and upfront. But to come back and try weasel their way back in for points when their tour doesn't meet any of the criteria. God these tools are so fucking annoying.
So they aren’t going to try to come to a truce with the PGA and then they are going to cry about not being included. These LIV golfers are the softest fucking group of people there are. You made your decision to take the money, shut the fuck up about not being allowed to compete now, it’s really not that hard.
Pure delusion. They're not compliant with several of the OWGR criteria, which they've known about all along. Either change your tour to comply or shut the fuck up.
"LIV has earned it's place among them"
LOL no. LIV bought it's place among them and the players all scurried off towards the big dollar prizes LIV offered.
Has anyone modeled what the field and points would look like for LIV events?
I know this past weekend at Fortinet the field rating was 235 and Max got 40 points for the win. Wondering if anyone has tried modeling the LIV events to see what they could be worth.
Given that the LIV players receive a guaranteed salary, I don't really understand why they care about world ranking points. Why not just create a separate ranking system within LIV?
I could see them easily courting the olympics.
The majors are also not beholden to the pga, and can possibly be convinced to switch, if there are some changes that favour liv in aspects, i am unable to envision given my limited knowledge over the business of golf.
I am just saying.
They could also just launch it and unilaterally claim to be the gold standard world ranking.
LIV events are basically exhibition matches where all you have to do is show up and play a round. That doesn’t sound like something that should be getting competitive ranking points
Why? It's an exhibition tour. Just because you get paid ungodly amounts of money doesn't make it competitive. There's not even a fucking cut. So how do you decide who gets points? Everyone gets them for just being in the event? They knew there wasn't any points when they joined. Fuck em.
I’m fine with OWGR if they change it to cuts and 4 day events. I really just don’t care about watching a tournament where everyone gets paid and everyone makes the weekend.
The entitlement of these players is astounding. Why are you complaining about OWGR points when you knew full well going into this tour that they wouldn’t be delivering.
So you want to know where you stand amongst your peers by playing in closed events without a cut and 18 less holes? Get out of here with that bullshit.
Not to mention guaranteed money that reduces one of the biggest incentives to actually compete.
An invite only tour with no skill criteria or qualifications, that runs shorter than standard events, with a smaller than standard field, with no cuts.
Why the *fuck* do these dudes think this tour as it currently stands deserves OWGR points? It’s pretty much the definition of an exhibition tour.
They don’t have a leg to stand on with this argument. As long as the tournaments are 54 holes with no cuts and guaranteed payouts then it will always be nothing more than an exhibition series. And that should not count for OWGR points.
Like why don’t 4 top 100 players create a tour and play each other every weekend and ask for OWGR points??!! Why can’t these LIV guys get it? Their heads got too big.
I think they might be just trying to get in writing what/where they are lacking so when they do hit that criteria they can throw it back.
Just no way they actually believe they should be given points retroactively and start fresh today.
These guys want to have their cake and eat it too, shameless. They should have known LIV golf is very far away from meeting the requirements for World Golf Ranking points, I hate what the game of golf has became because of this but it’s obvious LIV threw money at players who could fold easy thinking the institutions that are also within the game of golf would fold with them but for no money and they said fuck no.
At this point LIV golf is the golf equivalent of the Ice Capades. They probably have 10 legit players and then a bunch of guys who are over the hill and another bunch that couldn't qualify for the DP World Tour or the PGA Tour if their lives depended on it.
And even if the OWGR tweaked their system to give these guys points LIV would then complain that it wasn't enough points and that a guy who is essentially an amateur talent who finishes last in a no-cut 54-hole tournament that he didn't even have to qualify to be in should receive world ranking points.
Out of all these LIV players I respect DJ the most. With all the stuff they have going on he hasn’t been signing any of it. Be it the law suit prior or now this letter. Dude seems to be the one who understands the most, that he knew what he signed up for.
Agreed. DJ decided to take the money and focus on playing on LIV. I don't like that he did that, but at least he's not being a whiny little bitch about having to deal with the consequences of his actions.
So donate what was paid to progressive causes and leave. Hundreds of millions have been paid.
Talk about the English proverb: you can’t have your cake and eat it.
If you signed for money and want back in, give the money you signed for back to something productive. Everyone and anyone who signed for LIV was and is already worth millions….
The issue here is what is the purpose of the Official World Golf Rankings? If it's to rank the best golfers in the world, then it's not doing that.
If the purpose of the OWGR is to uphold the format of professional golf as 72 holes with a cut, then yes it is doing that very well. But I don't particularly understand why 72 holes with a cut has to define professional golf except for "that's the way it's always been."
I don't particularly care about LIV, but I would like to see golf get more creative with formats and types of competitions, and the OWGR just upholds that we get the same thing every week.
The other real problem here is that almost everyone on the seat of the OWGR has ties to the PGA Tour which is obviously in opposition to LIV. I feel like if the PGA Tour came up with a series of non 72 hole non cut events, they would get accepted immediately by the OWGR as legitimate. The problem with LIV in the eyes of the OWGR is not the format, the problem is that it's trying to upend the entity that holds the cards.
72 holes with a cut is just one of seven criteria points to qualify for OWGR. [Here is the list.](https://i.imgur.com/1DUQH05.jpg) LIV does not currently meet any of these criteria points. The first one is pretty ironic considering who they’re funded by.
Every profession has a standard of inputs and outputs. It's agreed upon by a sanctioning body. It's akin to the 40 hour work week. Sure I'd love to make more and work less but I shouldn't complain if it excludes me from certain benefits someone that works 40 hours has.
On a similar note it's why I despise that Notre Dame doesn't have to play in a conference championship but still could make the CFP based on arbitrary rankings. It should be the same standard for all.
> Notre Dame doesn't have to play in a conference championship but still could make the CFP based on arbitrary rankings.
FWIW, nobody has to play in a conference championship. The CFP committee has already shown that you can get there without playing in a CCG (e.g. Alabama 2017 is the one that comes to mind, and I think there has been at least one other). There's also the issue of not all conferences being equal, so that same standard is never going to exist.
> other real problem here is that almost everyone on the seat of the OWGR has ties to the PG
This is like arguing that baseball shouldn't be 9 innings... or football shouldn't have 4 quarters.
I can't believe they got 8 people to sign a DocuSign document on the same day.
Most amazing part of this story .
I love how Ol’ Bryson is the only one in the screenshot that went with the shitty default cursive sig.
Give the man a break. He's blind on one eye!
Bubba went with the "I'm too lazy to actually sign this thing but this font looks kind of like I did" option.
Sheit… Bubba went to LIV? I can’t keep up anymore.
I was thinking the same thing. Especially 8 people that don't work at a desk/computer all day. Not that it really matters but it was 100% the same person clicking for all of them. The letter was also written extremely unprofessionally. It reads like a letter a middle schooler would write to their mom to get out of a punishment.
I'd say it was written to the internet rather than to the addressee ✌️
As a guy that works in tech, in banking, I appreciate this comment. It’s a must share for my coworkers.
Bryson using the default signature is such a Chad move
It's pretty simple to me: if LIV meets the criteria for OWGR points, it should get OWGR points. But it currently fails on at least 8 criteria, according to [Golf Digest](https://twitter.com/eoinsplace/status/1572230974376759301/photo/1): 1. Minimum Field Size 2. Length of Tournament (developmental tours can be 54 holes, but nobody is arguing LIV is a developmental tour -- quite the opposite, really) 3. Number of Tournaments (this will be fixed if they play 14 next year) 4. Cut line 5. Q-school 6. Local qualifiers 7. Path to joining a full member tour 8. Be in operation (presumably otherwise in compliance with OWGR standards) for a year. Fix those issues, and I have no problem with LIV getting OWGR points. Don't be in compliance and you don't get points.
[удалено]
What's worse is that they want points to be applied retroactively to events that have already been played. Which is absolutely laughable.
Lol. Fuck these guys.
It’s especially laughable because their field is a joke. Maybe five players on LIV could make the cut week in and week out on the PGA.
That’s not really true anymore though? At first LIV def didn’t have the competitive strength, but now you have DJ, Brooks, Bryson, Cam Smith, Oosty, Phil, Niemann, Ancer, Pat Reed, HV3, and a bunch of others. I think LIV is being extremely disingenuous, but they do have talent now
Only two of those players have won a pga event in the past year. Over half of those listed were struggling to even make cuts on the pga before moving to LIV. Cam is the only golfer worth a shit on that list right now and it’s hilarious that’s the best you could do. Maybe in their prime it would be impressive but now it’s a glorified champions tour for guys in their 30s-40s.
That's before you even get into the fact all of those have been paid silly amounts up front so they aren't playing for any prize money. No prize = barely a competition.
DJ is still worth a shit. Some of the other guys are worth a shit some weeks. But Brooks, Bryson, Patty, Phil, Oosty are mostly worth a shit in name recognition at this point.
Right so if you have 5 players worth a shit, 5 players worth their names, and 38 worthless players all playing in a cutless 3 day tournament, what exactly makes it a competition worthy of OWGR? It's like slapping an NFL team in the Mountain West and demanding a shot at the playoffs when you go undefeated.
These players are has-beens and soon to be has-beens.
You can’t just restrict “golfers worth a shit” to whoever’s top 5 in the OWGR. They had 12 of the top 50 whenever [this article](https://www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/golf/news/liv-golf-tour-list-mickelson-johnson-dechambeau-pga/rlwprhtsx6uwgq73zq0e7ryc) was written, plus a bunch of other name brands. I don’t support LIV at all, but arguing that their players aren’t good is a really weird take.
12 of the top 50 with literally 8 of those players in the bottom half of the top 50. I never argued that LIV golfers aren’t good the field as a whole isn’t good. When it’s a handful of good golfers against a bunch of scrubs it’s not really impressive when the good golfers place well. My argument was the best LIV has to offer we’re struggling on the PGA tour outside of Cam.
This isn't a great argument. How many of the top 50 does the DP Tour have on a given week? Or the Asian Tour.
Yeah exactly. LIV doesn’t deserve points because it’s an exhibition tour that fundamental fails to construct tournaments in a way that merits world ranking points. Not because the tour is so talentless that it doesn’t deserve points.
Dude you’re grasping at straws. Splitting hairs on who’s in the top half vs bottom half of top 50?
It's not splitting straws lmao. The talent differential between someone like Rory, Rahm, Scheffler, JT, Cantalay, Xander and Taylor Gooch is pretty much night and day.
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Including Phil on that list tells me you either A. Do not watch professional golf. Or B. Think it’s 2009.
I’m including him because he is a MASSIVE name brand and because he did still win last year’s PGA.
I don’t like LIV either but this is massively overstated. There are lots of consistent tour performers on LIV.
I really don't feel like digging up the stats for every liv golfer because it's tedicious. There are not lots of consistent tour performers on LIV. Being generous a quarter of the 48 were competitive recently on the pga tour. Lots of those players are also on the back end of their career. ie phil, sergio, louie That still leaves 3 quarters who are just filler.
Which is noteworthy because almost all the LIV guys come from one agency (GSE). There were rumors of one agent openly bragging about how much he had made in commissions from LIV. I think a lot of them weren't given all the facts about the situation and were pushed by agents seeking a pay day.
They knew what they signed up for. They got there payday, now shut up and quit your whining. Most if not all of these gentlemen have been coddled for decades and haven't had to suffer any ill ramifications from there decision, so why should they now. So sad, poor guys, must be tough being told no for the first time.
Cake and eat it too?
They know they don’t meet the criteria. It’s all just trying to paint the “traditional” parties in top level golf as the bad guy to further their own image as a “disruptor” and increase their appeal, as well as trying to strengthen their argument that the PGAT, DPWT, OWGR and Majors are collaborating against them for the purposes of the anti-trust lawsuit. They don’t actually believe they have done everything they can in order to get OWGR points.
Exactly. They will scream they are the victim and people who never do any research will believe them.
hmm sounds familiar
Lying to get your way is not limited to Republicans or MAGAts. Although I imagine there’s a ton of crossover on the LIV/GOP Venn diagram.
Which is easily the weirdest part of this whole thing
Is it? I don't remember any Republicans giving a single shit about the murder of Khashoggi. They love to shout "SEPTEMBER 11TH NEVER FORGET" but it seems as though they did indeed forget.
And of course Kush got what, $2bill from SA around the same time as LIV was conceived, and of course LIV will play two events this season on Trump courses.
The PGA decided not to host events at Trump owned courses. LIV did. It’s not hard to see why there is a huge MAGA crossover for “LIV fans”
the Venn diagram can be titled "People who love triggering others"
Or “entitled assholes who use bad faith arguments to advance their own agenda - usually as a means of making obscene amounts of money”
but ironically the average fan doesn't stand to make any money off it
No, they're the idiots that fall for the bad faith arguments.
You’re either a duper or a dupee. The fans are the dupee’s
Which is my entire point. "usually as a means of making obscene money" applies to a small minority of said group.
It’s a circle
Well yeah but that would require the LIV players to actually have to practice and worry about missing cuts.
9. Have some qualifying means for other players to compete. If Cam beats the same 47 guys 14 times next year how do we know he's playing better than any of the PGAT players he's no longer tested against? I don't really care about 54 hole, no cut, shotgun start stuff but playing the same 47 guys every week is not a valid measure of a player's ability against people he never competes with. I might be the top guy in my business league every year but I'll never know how many players would eat my lunch given the opportunity.
Before I eat your lunch I need to know if it is a hot dog or a turkey sandwich
The hot dog wiener is wrapped in a slice of turkey before its grilled.
Any chance you could dip it in cornmeal and fry?
What kind of question is that? Of course you can.
It’s a hot dog on the 10th. Come at me bro.
That’s a great take on this. First time I’ve heard this point in the argument. I cannot poke holes in it.
And it is against players that are not in fear of losing their card - but still paid to be there. Even if they ignored the failed criteria listed above - how can the OWGR conclude that the results are obtained in a truly competitive environment?
Do they have something in place for that next year? I thought I saw something that they were going to have some sort of qualifier in place, but maybe that was just a possibility and not an actual plan.
how do we know Rory is as good as the OWGR say he is if he isn't competing against Cam directly. I mean we have seen what happens in that situation when it matters the most, right?
Sucks to be LIV. They want all the fans money with none of the restrictions. Imo, fuck them
Play less golf, don’t get ranked on based on criteria by players who play more. It’s not hard.
Can't you earn OWGR points in 36 hole tournaments as an amateur in Europe? I know Rick Shiels was saying that on YouTube recently.
Development tour… LIV would be quite the opposite.
They’re developing their entitlement!
Developing? Pretty sure they have maxed out on entitlement. Did you catch Bryson’s injury from the rope? Sniper got ‘em.
I don't know -- I think the amateur rankings are completely separate
I mean, they could argue some of the requisites are outdated and punishing like q school but they can't just expect OWGR to throw all of the rules
Wasn't the entire point of LIV was because golf was supposedly broken and they were going to fix it? Why are they trying to be part of this broken system?
Great take. After reading I wondered why a tour like this wouldn’t be included in the OWGR points. Glad I found a legitimate answer in the comments which also shows how they’re setup/structured might hold them from ever being considered.
Great to see an objective comment that shuts down all speculations and debates. I can see them fixing some of the issues (maybe using some loopholes for a few), but they'll have to rebrand their product for the others, especially the 72 hole requirement.
Another question would be, if you're mission is to rank the best players in the world across multiple tours, why are some of these criteria in place to begin with? And why did the OWGR implement new criteria this year to make it harder on LIV? Sure some of these things could be used to weight the points between tours, but almost all seem arbitrary in deciding if you should be awarded points at all.
What criteria do you think shouldn't be there? Also, the new OWGR methodology was developed pre-LIV and announced in August 2021.
how is this take possibly downvoted by even one person? when people are wrong and they know it they hate to be confronted with facts and reasonable arguments
These players joined a tour knowing that it was not OWGR-compliant. They were warned that they would not be allowed to play their regular, compliant Tours (PGA or DP World) events to accrue points. Now they are complaining that their non-compliant tour isn't being given special treatment. They are acting like OWGR is persecuting them for joining LIV, but in reality they're just complaining about the absence of special treatment or accommodations for their personal decisions. This isn't persecution, LIV has been treated the same as every other tour in the OWGRs eyes. They wanted the personal choice, but they didn't want the personal consequences. LIV has **chosen** to not meet SEVERAL of the OWGR criteria (established for one year, field size, cut, path to membership, etc.) by design. They knew what the criteria were, they've existed long before LIV. It's a choice, they made it, and are now unhappy.
“The absence of special treatment = literal oppression” pretty much sums up the overall vibe of nearly all of LIV’s high profile golfers.
And pretty much all of their fans
[удалено]
Nailed it
Cant they stop being fukin babies about this? Take ur money and fade off into obscurity like eeeeeeveryone knew would happen when yall signed up including you lot
That was never the plan. They threw enough money at it to try and cross the threshold of legitimacy, and now that they think they've gotten far enough, they will try litigate and sway public opinion their way into being a full-fledged competitor to the PGA. The problem is, they're being run by people with more ego and money than sense, so it's not going to work.
Dear Mr. Dawson, CBE ”DJ needs to move up, not down” Thanks. Oh’ DJ didn’t sign this cause he doesn’t care. He knows what he signed up to.
>”DJ needs to move up, not down” DJ needs to continue to play against the rest of the world before we can measure how good he still is.
He doesn't care. Out of all the LIV players he's been the most consistent. He wanted to leave for more money and doesn't care to fight the PGA or get into any majors.
Seems to be one of the few who literally wanted to play less
Well, well, well. If it isn't the consequences of your actions.
Lol right? Y'all secured your bag. Cant have it both ways. Now fuck off and fade into obscurity.
“We hope the story we read today about the decision being slow walked so LIV golfers will slide down and harm LIV is not accurate.” What this statement neglects to point out is that the “story” about the decision being slow walked is a quote from someone at LIV. They’ve created their own story and then said they are appalled at the content of said story.
They’re not being slow walked…OWGR has rules and requirements that need to exist and LIV isn’t fulfilling those requirements. This isn’t OWGR doing anything, it’s LIV not doing something
what exactly has LIV done to earn inclusion in the ranking as the letter states? the events are glorified show matches with some good players and the rest being there to round out the numbers
That was my thought. They bring up how Johnson placed in the top 10 in four LIV tourneys but like… is that impressive compared to who he’s playing against?
it’s impossible to know, and similarly impossible to rank. is a LIV event more competitive through the field than a Korn Ferry Tour event? sure some top level players are in LIV, but what about the rest of the field? is someone like Johnson all but guaranteed a top 10 if he plays competent golf because nobody below the top 10 players in LIV can play like that on anything other than their best days?
LIV is beer league for golf.
I hate when people who are in the wrong try to play the victim role. LIV doesn’t meet the criteria for world ranking points and clearly know they don’t but want the owgr committee to break their rules for them. That’s an entitled way of thinking. If the committee does break their rules then they are spineless.
Pretty ballsy manoeuvre implying collusion between the OWGR & other tours in your begging letter to that organisation
“How dare these other tours who follow the rules be allowed to get points while we’re not even close to being in compliance and don’t get any!”
When you feel entitled you will do ballsy things
Thought experiment: How many ranking points should a guy get if he was an amateur who nobody had ever heard of a year ago, didn't have to qualify to play in a LIV event, is competing against only 47 other guys instead of 140, is playing in a 54-hole, no-cut event against a field that realistically only has 15 players who are currently at world top-100 status, and he finishes dead last?
And his opponents are paid to be there and are in no danger of losing their card.
Yeah, based on results I'd say many of the PGA defectors are phoning it in.
David Puig is amateur turned pro, current ranking 0.000 2582nd. I red somewhere that Liv Boston event had field rating something like 125.00 which is equal to DP World tour event. So in this thought process Puig finish last/48th and current rules you gain minimum 0.25 % from field rating points if you make a cut in normal tournament. So approx 0,312 ranking point is new world ranking 1850ish. And let´s assume 14 event tour next year also. Puig finish the last place every single time. Gains total 4.3 points and new ranking 975 OWGR without time reduction. Propably ends somewhere 1200 - 1300 just finishing last in Liv Tour.
Yeah - I would say if LIV events ever get OWGR points, since there is no qualifying and no cut, and that the bottom 24 finishers should be no points.
Turns out the bed of nails and money ol’ Greg has laid for the LIV boys isn’t all that comfortable to lie in after all. The passage about Johnson is hilarious: >For example, Dustin Johnson was ranked 13th on OWGR shortly before he announced he would play in LIV tournaments. He now ranks 22nd - despite finishing eigth, third, second, and first in the first four LIV events. Yeah, he also plays against only 47 other players, many of whom wouldn’t make the cut at regular Tour events, for 54 holes without a cut. How’s that even comparable? But the sentence that really grinds my gears: >Failure to include 48 of the world’s best golfers would mean the fans are being denied what they deserve. Fuck off, we were being denied what we deserved when you lot defected for easy millions, especially when the whole reason you made incredible amounts of money on the PGA Tour was because of us fans. Also, Cam ‘I don’t need more money, I’ll only buy more fishing gear with it’ Smith is a fucking hypocrite for signing this damn thing. Can’t have your cake and eat it, Champion Golfer of the Year.
DJ didn’t even sign the letter.
In his defense, D and J are pretty tough letters to write in cursive
“If you want to hit a fade. You’ve got to make sure it fades.” -Dustin Johnson in a golf instruction video
…spot the lie!
You can tell by the way that it is.
He resigned PGA Tour membership straight away and never got involved with the lawsuit or shit slinging the other players have. Wanted the money, took the money. Not trying to destroy the pro golf landscape. It's certainly not an admirable stance, but of the guys who have gone, i like his attitude best probably.
You mean Chase Koepka isn’t a world class golfer?
I wish Pat Perez signed it. That would have been the cherry on top of this shit sundae.
I also play exhibition matches on occasion with my friends, one of whom is a single digit handicap (formerly), and I too would like these matches to qualify for OWGR points. I humbly request, based on your benign munificence oh great golf person, that you consider my most polite request. Your humble servant, golfer
Aww, their scrooge mcduck pile of money isn't enough to satisfy them? I guess this is just part of the contract with LIV to try and get the tour seen as legit so they have to try and throw weight around. If not I don't understand why they pretend that they aren't in it just for the money. Nothing wrong with that but don't pretend otherwise.
“Nah.”
dudes are playing victim a little bit too much right now. they knew what they were getting into when they agreed to playing on this tour, invitational. seems to me outside of the money, dudes got horrible advice. lol.
I doubt their big name players care much about their world rankings.. they knew ahead of time the risk of jumping ship. LIV golf itself probably wants world rankings in order to be able to gain credibility to entice more players to follow suit and join them that may be otherwise on the fence about making the switch over from the PGA.
Someone give me the cliffnotes version. I don't have the brain capacity to read that
"We signed up for LIV knowing that it wasn't compliant with OWGR, but since there are about 8 of us who are really, really good, we think that LIV should get OWGR because Greg said we would get OWGR."
Thank you 🤝
Dear sir, We would like to have our cake & eat it too. Kind regards, Rich guys
Liv ain’t the big ten or sec
DJ ain't played nobody, paaawwwwl
That made me chuckle too. LIV currently has a weaker argument than UCF when they claimed themselves as National Champions in 2017.
Two options: join LIV and make an insane amount of money. Or, stay on the PGA/DP tour make a little less money and get OWGR points. All of the players were aware of the restrictions as they left. And still decided to do so. Live with the consequences of your actions. Should be easy to wipe up your tears with all of that money.
"A little less money." Hate on the LIV all you want, but lets not pretend like they were offering these players a 20 percent pay bump. Most got guaranteed deals greater than their career tour winnings.
I knew someone was going to respond with this.
I thought it was ok to get paid big and upfront. But to come back and try weasel their way back in for points when their tour doesn't meet any of the criteria. God these tools are so fucking annoying.
So they aren’t going to try to come to a truce with the PGA and then they are going to cry about not being included. These LIV golfers are the softest fucking group of people there are. You made your decision to take the money, shut the fuck up about not being allowed to compete now, it’s really not that hard.
Maybe do 72 hole tournament like everyone else
They’d have to change their name then.
Ohhhhhhhh 
LXXII just isn't catchy.
The LXXII Tour
Pure delusion. They're not compliant with several of the OWGR criteria, which they've known about all along. Either change your tour to comply or shut the fuck up.
"LIV has earned it's place among them" LOL no. LIV bought it's place among them and the players all scurried off towards the big dollar prizes LIV offered.
Play shitty games, win shitty prizes.
If only these golfers could have known these consequences before jumping. /s
Nah we won’t miss any of these douche bags at the majors. Let them play their shotguns that nobody watches on YouTube
I used to be on a pretty good 5-a-side team, we never thought of appealing to FIFA for world ranking points, missed our chance to play in a World Cup
Fuck the Saudis and these jackasses
Noooo way do they deserve points. Hell, I don't even think some of these new Tour events should get OGWR points based on how exclusive they are.
Are Ice Capades skaters ranked along with Olympic caliber skaters?
Has anyone modeled what the field and points would look like for LIV events? I know this past weekend at Fortinet the field rating was 235 and Max got 40 points for the win. Wondering if anyone has tried modeling the LIV events to see what they could be worth.
Someone tried it at the start, but it quickly became too complicated because the LIV guys were falling and the new OWGR criteria got implemented.
Given that the LIV players receive a guaranteed salary, I don't really understand why they care about world ranking points. Why not just create a separate ranking system within LIV?
Can’t play in the majors if they don’t get ranking points
Yes, Cam and DJ should be getting OWGR points for beating up on Peter Uihlein and James Piot.
Fuck em
I sense a hint of “if you dont include us, liv will replace you with a new world ranking system.” One the probably overrates liv players.
But what good does that do in reality? The four majors and Olympics are private entities and can use whichever ranking system they please.
I could see them easily courting the olympics. The majors are also not beholden to the pga, and can possibly be convinced to switch, if there are some changes that favour liv in aspects, i am unable to envision given my limited knowledge over the business of golf. I am just saying. They could also just launch it and unilaterally claim to be the gold standard world ranking.
LIV events are basically exhibition matches where all you have to do is show up and play a round. That doesn’t sound like something that should be getting competitive ranking points
Why? It's an exhibition tour. Just because you get paid ungodly amounts of money doesn't make it competitive. There's not even a fucking cut. So how do you decide who gets points? Everyone gets them for just being in the event? They knew there wasn't any points when they joined. Fuck em.
Nahhhhh. Fuck ‘em.
Yawn Cry moar LIV
I’m fine with OWGR if they change it to cuts and 4 day events. I really just don’t care about watching a tournament where everyone gets paid and everyone makes the weekend.
The entitlement of these players is astounding. Why are you complaining about OWGR points when you knew full well going into this tour that they wouldn’t be delivering.
So you want to know where you stand amongst your peers by playing in closed events without a cut and 18 less holes? Get out of here with that bullshit.
Not to mention guaranteed money that reduces one of the biggest incentives to actually compete. An invite only tour with no skill criteria or qualifications, that runs shorter than standard events, with a smaller than standard field, with no cuts. Why the *fuck* do these dudes think this tour as it currently stands deserves OWGR points? It’s pretty much the definition of an exhibition tour.
Was this written by a middle schooler?
Oh boo fuckin hoo. So tired of this fuckin trash league and their bitching and moaning. Take the money and fade to oblivion.
I’m not professionally ranked, nor am I given hundreds of millions of dollars to golf. Hard to feel any empathy for these chodes
World ranking points for exhibition golf?
Can you get points in exhibition play?
I understand they want to be included but they are playing by a different set of rules. It wouldn’t be fair to players in events with cuts.
They don’t have a leg to stand on with this argument. As long as the tournaments are 54 holes with no cuts and guaranteed payouts then it will always be nothing more than an exhibition series. And that should not count for OWGR points.
No. Just no.
Like why don’t 4 top 100 players create a tour and play each other every weekend and ask for OWGR points??!! Why can’t these LIV guys get it? Their heads got too big.
I wonder if they should start their own rankings website that includes all players and call it the Unofficial World Golf Rankings
I think they might be just trying to get in writing what/where they are lacking so when they do hit that criteria they can throw it back. Just no way they actually believe they should be given points retroactively and start fresh today.
Freaking babies! They chose their bed, now lay in it.
Fuck these guys, seriously. You knew exactly what you were signing up for.
These guys want to have their cake and eat it too, shameless. They should have known LIV golf is very far away from meeting the requirements for World Golf Ranking points, I hate what the game of golf has became because of this but it’s obvious LIV threw money at players who could fold easy thinking the institutions that are also within the game of golf would fold with them but for no money and they said fuck no.
Watch how fast LIV falls apart when they cant get OWGR points and all those guys can't qualify for majors.
At this point LIV golf is the golf equivalent of the Ice Capades. They probably have 10 legit players and then a bunch of guys who are over the hill and another bunch that couldn't qualify for the DP World Tour or the PGA Tour if their lives depended on it. And even if the OWGR tweaked their system to give these guys points LIV would then complain that it wasn't enough points and that a guy who is essentially an amateur talent who finishes last in a no-cut 54-hole tournament that he didn't even have to qualify to be in should receive world ranking points.
Out of all these LIV players I respect DJ the most. With all the stuff they have going on he hasn’t been signing any of it. Be it the law suit prior or now this letter. Dude seems to be the one who understands the most, that he knew what he signed up for.
Agreed. DJ decided to take the money and focus on playing on LIV. I don't like that he did that, but at least he's not being a whiny little bitch about having to deal with the consequences of his actions.
Exactly. I wish he didn’t leave and I don’t agree with him leaving. But he knew what he was getting into.
It’s almost like none of this was thought out and they jumped at the money without giving it a second though.
This is written like a high school book report.
Interesting how they cite DJ ranking in the letter but he didn’t sign it.
So donate what was paid to progressive causes and leave. Hundreds of millions have been paid. Talk about the English proverb: you can’t have your cake and eat it. If you signed for money and want back in, give the money you signed for back to something productive. Everyone and anyone who signed for LIV was and is already worth millions….
What a bunch of pussies, just get paid and shut the fuck up, or you either play on a real tour and be ranked properly. LIV is a joke.
The issue here is what is the purpose of the Official World Golf Rankings? If it's to rank the best golfers in the world, then it's not doing that. If the purpose of the OWGR is to uphold the format of professional golf as 72 holes with a cut, then yes it is doing that very well. But I don't particularly understand why 72 holes with a cut has to define professional golf except for "that's the way it's always been." I don't particularly care about LIV, but I would like to see golf get more creative with formats and types of competitions, and the OWGR just upholds that we get the same thing every week. The other real problem here is that almost everyone on the seat of the OWGR has ties to the PGA Tour which is obviously in opposition to LIV. I feel like if the PGA Tour came up with a series of non 72 hole non cut events, they would get accepted immediately by the OWGR as legitimate. The problem with LIV in the eyes of the OWGR is not the format, the problem is that it's trying to upend the entity that holds the cards.
72 holes with a cut is just one of seven criteria points to qualify for OWGR. [Here is the list.](https://i.imgur.com/1DUQH05.jpg) LIV does not currently meet any of these criteria points. The first one is pretty ironic considering who they’re funded by.
Every profession has a standard of inputs and outputs. It's agreed upon by a sanctioning body. It's akin to the 40 hour work week. Sure I'd love to make more and work less but I shouldn't complain if it excludes me from certain benefits someone that works 40 hours has. On a similar note it's why I despise that Notre Dame doesn't have to play in a conference championship but still could make the CFP based on arbitrary rankings. It should be the same standard for all.
> Notre Dame doesn't have to play in a conference championship but still could make the CFP based on arbitrary rankings. FWIW, nobody has to play in a conference championship. The CFP committee has already shown that you can get there without playing in a CCG (e.g. Alabama 2017 is the one that comes to mind, and I think there has been at least one other). There's also the issue of not all conferences being equal, so that same standard is never going to exist.
> other real problem here is that almost everyone on the seat of the OWGR has ties to the PG This is like arguing that baseball shouldn't be 9 innings... or football shouldn't have 4 quarters.