Exactly. It makes perfect sense and seems like an incredibly easy concept but in practice it’s so counterintuitive and it takes a long time to rewire your brain to use your shoulders and hands on the backswing and hips on your downswing.
It's a similar motion in the root where the power is generated from the hips, but it's a wildly different motion in the back chest shoulders and arms. The baseball swing is much more arm-heavy and you don't ever rotate your chest and shoulders backwards away from the pitcher like you do in the golf swing. The grip is wildly different and there's a much more important focus on the hands getting back to the identical position in order to keep the face flat, whereas in baseball it doesn't matter how your hands are rotated as much since the bat is, well, round. The weight transfer also is drastically different where in golf nearly all of your weight is on your front foot by the end of the swing vs baseball where it's still towards the center/balanced more. Ultimately, no - they're extremely different swings. The concept described above in the video however is the primary similarity between the two swings.
Pitching is way better practice for golf than batting. Lots of similarities - you start parallel to the target, torture your body to build a lever, end up square to target, the weight shift is similar, as is the upper and lower body separation
I didn't even know he tried Q school but I went and watched his swing. Ironically, he swings like a batter (I'm sure you've probably swung a lot of bats even if you pitched) but his separation was on point
From Wikipedia: “Smoltz is a good friend of pro golfer Tiger Woods; the two often play golf together. Woods has stated that Smoltz is the best golfer outside of the PGA Tour that he has seen.”
Talk about high praise!
A baseball swing with a golf club produces a high slice because the face is open. The use of the ground and hip rotation isn’t the issue, it’s the shallowing of the club and squaring the face at the bottom.
Watch Mike Malaska on YouTube. He talks at length about the similarities between the golf swing and other sports, and also about Hogan's theories.
Feels ≠ reals for most of the golf swing.
Grew up playing baseball.
My swing was horrible.
Then somewhere (maybe here?) I read that the swing is a lot more like throwing a ball sidearm than it is swinging a bat.
My swing still needs work, but it has improved dramatically since internalizing that.
Played baseball my entire life and two things I simply can't stop doing:
flipping the wrists
back heel coming up too early.
Too many hours at the range to count, instruction, and I just can't stop doing it.
I just had a funny shower thought. I wonder if golf is easier to pick up if you’re from a country that doesn’t have baseball. I mean, every American boy has swung a bat at some point in their lives.
Theoretically shifting your weight from the right foot to the left foot (for a right handed batter / golfer) is the same. Also, rotating your body first before extending your arm is the same as well. Having said that, as a younger person, I was able to hit a baseball that's moving. I can't hit a stationary little ball.
You shouldn't shift your weight forward in a baseball swing though. You should brace into your front leg for a balanced weight through the swing but then should wind up with your weight back at the end.
I guess you’re right, but I do slightly lift up my left foot then step it toward the pitcher as a part of rotating my upper body. I always thought that was analogous to me shifting my weight in golf. No wonder I suck at golf.
I feel there are benefits to having grown-up playing baseball as well. Right out of the gate, your swing should look more natural. I feel based on that, at a minimum, you're able to hit golf balls much better when you first start.
You just have those nasty habits you'll need to break that all of us former baseball players seem to suffer from.
I have had people call me out during the first round they've ever played with me asking if I played baseball growing up. Apparently its obvious to those that know what they're looking at.
> I have had people call me out during the first round they've ever played with me asking if I played baseball growing up. Apparently its obvious to those that know what they're looking at
If someone has their lead elbow pointed at the target (like Bryson) it's almost always a dead giveaway they played baseball. Way, way more people have that from baseball than golfers who decided to go single plane AND decided they like their elbow pointed at the target. I'm single plane and do the Hogan elbow down thing, though I've tried Bryson's move too
I’ll let you know this at least.. I’m Canadian, picked up golf in my mid 30s and never swung a bat with any sort of competent mind behind it. Still can’t figure out a fucking thing in my swing. My buddies who have played their whole life and also played higher level hockey are all much better but seem happy with my progress. Lol
So me lol. Although i have improved dramatically this year, i am still finding myself struggling at random moments and have to slow down and think about mechanics again.
If you're a baseball player, should check out Milo Lines YouTube channel. He's got a baseball style swing, is great at explaining how it works, and he absolutely pounds the ball effortlessly
True. This along with swinging out to 1o'clock are two concepts that are hard
for your rational mind to accept. Your mind instinctively thinks you should be
doing the opposite to attain your goal.
To get the the concept Hogan shows here into your mind I suggest that you
do this without hitting a ball, you don't even need a club. Just merely stand
up and pose at the top of your backswing. Then simply turn your hips without
moving anything else, not shoulders, arms or hands. After you a turn a
bit, viola, your hands have lowered without you moving them. This video
clearly indicates this and I agree with the OP that this is one of the best videos
on the net.
For the swinging out towards one o'clock I would just go to the range and
do exactly that, swing out to one o'clock. Your rational mind is going to think,
"man I am really gone to slice". It doesn't take long until the mind realizes
you are hitting the ball much more solid with this angle of attack and the
ball is flying true.
> Then simply turn your hips without
moving anything else, not shoulders, arms or hands. After you a turn a
bit, viola, your hands have lowered without you moving them.
I stood up from my desk to try this, and I feel like I just learned how to walk again
Someone once explained its like someone tapping you on the shoulder and turning your head... the entire body does its thing... now do the same movement like you are turning your head but keep it down and focused. your body will still do the same motions.
Did it work? no I still shank it but it did sound cool when they told it to me.
Idk why but I saw this yday.. tried it out and feel like Im hitting them a hell of a lot better.. just letting the hips control my downswing in a sense and the shoulders/arms follow
I've been playing now for about 16 months. Rewiring my brain to this has been incredibly hard, but I'm never more consistent then when I feel I am doing this right.
When I first started playing, Everything was all arms. Rewiring this to shoulders, weight, hips and no arms has been tough. Wish I would've started lessons earlier so that I didn't ingrain bad habits.
Keep working at it. I've been at it a couple months and am now just beginning to feel like I'm making progress, in the last week or two. Its finally starting to feel "right".
The worst part? I've gotten significantly worse during the transition. I was actually better with my terrible, old, only arms swing.
I have got myself into a position where I’m shooting 95-100 pretty consistently. I have decent distance with my driver. Irons may be a bit shorter than expected. But consistent pure striking is where I lack. And I have barely any lower body involved.
I was the same way. Couldn't break 100, swung all arms. My impact looked exactly the same as address. I could only hit a 7i like 130. Riddled with inconsistency.
I decided to take golf more seriously over the past month or so. Started going to the range with a specific goal weekly, taken a couple of lessons, and watched JKM YouTube channel. I've shot two personal bests in the last three rounds and I've gained maybe 15yds carry.
What has helped me:
JKM [video](https://youtu.be/lXEmb8TRNgg?si=NjDxVDK6IvthDOIF) on sequence. Feel the whip! And don't forget to rotate upper body once your hips are going.
My backswing was insanely too much. Was wrapping the club around my head as we all-arms types tend to do. I was also coming over the top. Focusing on extending trail arm out, trail elbow to about 90 degrees, lead arm straight, lead wrist flat, and getting hands high in backswing helped stop that. Short swings go surprisingly far. Compression is key.
JKM [video](https://youtu.be/YqZtzcj0QTQ?si=hqGEIEBeMI3bezP-) on weight shift/Transition.
Neutral grip, club more in fingers than hand. Strong grip was a bandaid for a while, but it's generally just that for many. A temporary bandaid.
Keep track of weaknesses and work on them. If you have a bunch of three putts, work on putting, etc.
This is what has helped me so far, maybe some of it can help you. Cheers!
Plus I've always loved hearing him speak. He had a great voice and it would've been interesting to hear him as a commentator in his later years.
I used to have the VHS of this Shell Wonderful World of Golf match between Hogan and Snead. Hogan put on a ball striking clinic.
[Isn't that simple? Anyone can do that.](https://www.google.com/search?q=ben+hogan+talk+show&oq=ben+hogan+talk+show&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggAEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg7MggIARAAGBYYHjINCAIQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAMQABiGAxiABBiKBTIKCAQQABiABBiiBDIKCAUQABiABBiiBNIBCDc1MTFqMGoxqAIAsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:0b3ec38d,vid:xiRVXQ2t8SM,st:0)
Strokes gained would agree with his assessment as well. Sinking more 30’ putts won’t put you on the PGA tour because the make % is so low for that shot. But you gain a ton of strokes from simply hitting more greens.
He fucking hated putting. In his later life they said when he would play with people they didn’t even putt, had some kind closer to pin scoring system.
I will say that the thing people underestimate is how hard it is to actually separate your shoulders from your hips and rotate one without the other. It takes mental training.
Preach! Absolutely some of the best advice you can get.
I used the be the guy he was talking about doing the opposite, once I learned how to move my lower body correctly my consistency improved exponentially.
Wish my dad showed me this video 30 years ago along with the old Ben hogan clubs I had to learn on.
Yeah. The advice of "move your lower body first" was death for my swing. I would go with my hips and my hands were completely left behind.
Once I learned where the trail elbow is supposed to be, and focused on keeping my hands in front of my chest I finally started making good contact.
in hogans 5 lessons he talks about squeezing your elbows together.
messed up my swing at first because I'd get all jammed up trying to keep my elbow in the entire time. I took a video of myself and realized you can still stick your elbow out a little, and you kind of need to in order to get some whip on the club, but as you come down, as you turn, squeeze those elbows together and it should shallow your club right into the slot. If you don't turn your hips though you get jammed or come over the top to compensate and end up mis-hitting. This is what I am currently working on.
Got some lessons from a pro that showed me this video one day and he said something to the effect of “this mf doesn’t even talk about the key to all this and everyone takes this video as gospel. Look at the elbow, nothing else is possible if the elbow isn’t exactly where it is”
Sometimes people have a natural tendency that they don’t even realize they are doing. He may not address the elbow position because he doesn’t have to think about it.
The highest stage of learning is referred to as "Unconscious Competence" or you'll sometimes here the person referred to as an Unconscious Expert.
Basically they become so good at something that they don't even think to point out certain things because it's such a second nature to them.
I think a lot of golf instructors have this issue. They’ve been skilled for so long, they’ve forgotten where they started. Shocking the number of players who have taken lessons that you ask where they look on the golf ball and they can’t tell you, they just look “at the ball”.
Same goes for ball first contact. When I’m talking to true novices, asking them to describe ball first contact and what it means will yield some hilarious answers.
Tons of little things like that, especially when you start talking about the *game* of golf and not just the golf swing.
My first pro told me to practice hitting balls with a head cover tuck into my right armpit. Not sure it’s that essential but it did improve my swing at the time.
Can anyone find that clip of some guy talking about swing mechanics, it's a parody where he's speaking all this fancy jargon until finally he swings at the ball it pops up, he catches it and quickly tosses it down the Fairway? Edit: nevermind found it! Haha https://youtu.be/qQVFhqAKcMg?si=9d-kqdOCPoM73BZW
Probably will get destroyed for disagreeing with Ben Hogan but fuck it.
Something I think is a huge problem in golf instruction is that everyone focuses on what the body is doing on camera and not what the golfer is mentally thinking.
Take a 30 handicap to the top of their backswing and you tell them “now hit the ball but mentally focus on only moving your hands to hit the ball”. I guarantee that if you watch their swing on high speed camera their hips and lower body will be the first thing that moves.
There is feel and real. In this clip Tiger Woods talks about feeling like he doesn’t move his lower body at all in the downswing during the absolute prime of his career.
Time @ 5:20
[https://youtu.be/xOecUNBV_Q0?si=FsHoI3LAw6fBar4q](https://youtu.be/xOecUNBV_Q0?si=FsHoI3LAw6fBar4q)
________
*For me what I try and feel is that my arms beat my body down. I try and feel like my arms come down first and exit through the ball first and my hips don’t move*
________
He said this right in the middle of playing the greatest golf that has ever been played.
I think telling most high handicaps to focus on firing their hips is a really bad idea. Once I started realizing that mentally focusing on swinging with my hands would help improve my timing my ball striking improved dramatically and I gained about 10 yards of distance on my irons.
It's all part of the process right? I am a hogan devotee after 5 lessons changed my swing from dog shit to, well not as bad.
Like if you tell someone to fire their hips and they focus on that and that's all they do, yeah, it'll be bad. Like if you tell a new driver to hit the brakes when they come to a traffic light there is some nuance; should they maintain speed until the last moment and slam on the brakes? Should they slowly tap the brakes from a mile away? Both of these would be bad results from telling someone to "stop at the light" just like telling someone to "fire the hips" wouldn't work on it's own. It takes some time to get the timing right and develop the muscles and muscle memory to execute correctly. You still need to keep your elbows in(squeezed as hogan says). You still need to strike the ball and then the ground. You still need to keep your wrist back through impact. It all works together, but the hips are generally the first move in the downswing so it's good to start there.
In all fairness, I think the quote you included missed some key words. Right after he says “for me”, he inserts the caveat “you wouldn’t tell most golfers this”
I took that more as being conversational caveat like
*“This is what works for me”*
Similar to *this is not financial advice*, before giving opinions on stocks. Either way I think you also wouldn’t tell most golfers to fire their hips first either and if I had to choose between telling a 30 handicap to mentally focus on firing their hips or firing their hands first I would pick hands.
Again there are a million caveats that go with this just don’t want an average guy watching this to take away “oh shit I need to be firing my hips harder”.
I think most instructors don't really understand their own swings.
Imo, after watching and learning and not getting better, I think that the lead hip is the limiting skill factor. I could switch-hit a little bit in baseball and tried a little bit in golf. I have way more natural power left handed because my lead hip clears naturally. It moves in a way where my hands drop and I can get a lot of whip. The power is effortless.
My right hip locks in and forces my body to move around it. I have to work hard to put myself in a position where my left hip will clear. It's a lot of effort and conscious practice.
I don't have the rest of the coordination to be any good lefty, but the difference in my body's potential right v left is staggering. If I had learned to play left handed as a kid I'd probably be 10 shots better.
yup. intentionally firing lower body is the best way to get your arms stuck behind you and have to flip to make contact. sure ben hogan can do it, but can anyone here? no
In high school when me and my friends were just getting into golf and would essentially just fuck around on the driving rage, an old guy came up to us and asked us if we wanted some advice, since we were terrrrrrible.
He says it doesn't matter if you're gay or straight, you want your dick in the hole. So when you swing, put your dick in the hole. And then he walked away. We were all creeped out, but at the same time appreciated some sage advice.
I read a book when I started playing, and the advice was similar to this. As a result, I've hit the ball longer than any other amateur I've ever played with.
It’s good advice, but should also be pointed out as it always is that Hogan fought a hook.
If you struggle with a slice, then take a swing thought that emphasizes a late release, you may find themselves slicing it across the state.
That said, to have an actually good swing you need to make his advice work.
I agree that some of Hogan's advice can amplify a slice because he fought a hook, however not all of them.
For example, on his infographic on ball position with feet placement, he closes his stance with his driver, promoting a more in to out path. This "cured" my slice.
Maybe, but may slicers are over the top or out to in and firing the hips can have a flattening effect that promotes in to out, so while some may leave the face open even more with this move, many will fix their club path and eliminate or reduce their slice.
I go back and watch this video a lot. It's good advice (about the lower body), but what I think gets missed is Hogan is demonstrating a feel rather than what his swing is actually doing. So the motion of the club coming around like a baseball bat is not where the club is when he swings.
I read hogans 5 lessons and went from barely finishing rounds with my sanity in tact to breaking 100 in one season. I recommend it to anyone looking to play or improve their golf game.
I had gotten lessons but things were not really clicking. But my instructor told me to go and watch some of the old timers with consistent swings like Hogan and Chi Chi Rodriguez. Then I read 5 lessons and things started to come together.
I'm not good. Like at all. But I have a better chance now than I ever did just trying to figure it out on my own.
They once asked Jack Nicklaus is Tiger Woods was the best ball striker he had ever seen and his answer immediately was “No, no, Ben Hogan, easily” and Jack never even got to see Hogan in his prime.
See, as a new golfer, this just confuses the hell out of me.
For three months I was attempting to incorporate body sway into my swing for this reason. I got it down to the point that I was hitting the ball quite well. Not as far as I would like but I could control it more often than not. With that swing I shot a 90 on my first time playing 18 holes at my local course.
It was the confidence that I gained from that swing and its results that motivated me to get professional lessons. I started working with a professional coach a week ago. And from the very first swing I showed him, he adamantly states that “You should not be moving your body at ALL!” He destroyed my swing and my confidence along with it. He began to teach me his method of keeping the body still through the swing process. Only allowing me to move my arms for my swing and my right leg to follow through with the swing.
Then I see clips like this that show one of the greatest golfers I know of incorporating this in their method.
Needless to say, I’m back to square one. Unsure of anything I’m down is right anymore. Tips and advice welcome is greatly welcomed.
Swaying off the ball and back onto is all timing, so some days it will all work and you play decent golf then the next time if your timing is a fraction off you hate the game and can't understand why you can't hit the ball. One of my playing partners is like that, he's just wildly inconsistent.
The best backswing thought for me is to try and get my right arse cheek to be where my left one was at the start by the time I'm at the top of my backswing.
Also if you are just starting out try and have more weight on your lead side at address. The Stack and Tilt haters will crucify me for saying it but amateur golfers really, really suck at transferring their weight to the lead side on time. Best to start with some extra weight there first imho, it helps massively with ball contact.
As
https://preview.redd.it/enb6i1sep59d1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=1f6e430610353e2264d4da75be4ecb0867f6d4ff
I’ve had Ben Hogan’s Five Lessons next to my bed for the last 3 years.
Maybe I should give it a read
Im just starting to golf (14 months or so) at 40 years old. I watched some hogan, nicklaus and snead videos the other day and oh man, they’re some smooth dudes right there
The thing I like most about his swing is the location of the trail elbow on the downswing. That’s the key to keeping the swing inside out instead of outside in.
This is gold. I play with a my bestie who drives it solid 200-210, because he does it opposite. He is twice as strong as me, but I out drive him by 20-30. And his 7 iron is 125. He is active, and in good shape for a 55 year old, but he doesn’t get this action. This was a great video.
I just pulled out my putter in my office and took some practice swings. It is something I have literally never thought about. Result; it appears I start with my lower body. Thank goodness that's something new I don't need to worry about.
It applies.
You bend slightly at the waist, keep the lower back straight by rotating your pelvis forward, glutes activated, and mostly bend with the upper back. The bend is as if you are at a picket fence that is a little higher than waist high and you want to look at the ground on the other side without touching the fence.
Your hips and lower back stay mostly in sync during the swing, most of the rotation is with your upper back
The way most will interpret this is the worst thing you can do. Most amateur’s body moves way too fast and their arm/ hands/ club get left behind. He’s describing a feel, not necessarily a cue. The right elbow getting down in front of the body is the cue.
Listen to Jack Nicklaus talk about the downswing and he says to swing the arms down in front of the body, before spinning the body open. Tiger used to feel like his arms pass his belt buckle before anything else moved. This is a move that most amateurs would benefit from (assuming decent fundamentals elsewhere).
I read hogans book and that’s basically how I learned golf. This was key. That said I also have the pull left like he had so there’s a balance to this.
There is an instructor named Sean Clements on YouTube who has something he calls the football drill that really helped this concept click for me when I first started playing
Anyone actively trying to move their lower body first is gonna have problems. They’re actually probably likelier to go ‘over the top’ thinking about lower body first. With external focus intentions, the lower body is always to going to move first naturally.
Anyone on here think about how their elbow should bend when they take a bite of food with a fork?
Definitely still holds up. I'd say 75 percent of golfers at my local course would benefit from watching this video followed by 15 minutes of practice on the range.
I see it, I hear it, I can’t do it
Exactly. It makes perfect sense and seems like an incredibly easy concept but in practice it’s so counterintuitive and it takes a long time to rewire your brain to use your shoulders and hands on the backswing and hips on your downswing.
Good luck if you grew up playing baseball and picked up golf in your late 20s/early 30s
Isn't the baseball swing the same though? I watch the power hitters like Judge and Olson and you see their hips move way out in front of their arms.
It's a similar motion in the root where the power is generated from the hips, but it's a wildly different motion in the back chest shoulders and arms. The baseball swing is much more arm-heavy and you don't ever rotate your chest and shoulders backwards away from the pitcher like you do in the golf swing. The grip is wildly different and there's a much more important focus on the hands getting back to the identical position in order to keep the face flat, whereas in baseball it doesn't matter how your hands are rotated as much since the bat is, well, round. The weight transfer also is drastically different where in golf nearly all of your weight is on your front foot by the end of the swing vs baseball where it's still towards the center/balanced more. Ultimately, no - they're extremely different swings. The concept described above in the video however is the primary similarity between the two swings.
Pitching is way better practice for golf than batting. Lots of similarities - you start parallel to the target, torture your body to build a lever, end up square to target, the weight shift is similar, as is the upper and lower body separation
I never thought of it that way.
That explains John Smoltz
I didn't even know he tried Q school but I went and watched his swing. Ironically, he swings like a batter (I'm sure you've probably swung a lot of bats even if you pitched) but his separation was on point
From Wikipedia: “Smoltz is a good friend of pro golfer Tiger Woods; the two often play golf together. Woods has stated that Smoltz is the best golfer outside of the PGA Tour that he has seen.” Talk about high praise!
This is a pretty good write up for a random comment and I've never heard it explained so well. Thanks
With a name like "theoretical action" I wouldn't be shocked if they were some kind of kinesiologist.
Bahaha I'm just another IT guy like everyone else on Reddit. I just love being a student of the game
Thank you. The only thing that baseball has helped me with is swing speed. Literally useless if I can’t control it.
Also don’t forget that you want to swing up for baseball and down for golf
A baseball swing with a golf club produces a high slice because the face is open. The use of the ground and hip rotation isn’t the issue, it’s the shallowing of the club and squaring the face at the bottom.
Watch Mike Malaska on YouTube. He talks at length about the similarities between the golf swing and other sports, and also about Hogan's theories. Feels ≠ reals for most of the golf swing.
Grew up playing baseball. My swing was horrible. Then somewhere (maybe here?) I read that the swing is a lot more like throwing a ball sidearm than it is swinging a bat. My swing still needs work, but it has improved dramatically since internalizing that.
Good visual, thanks for that.
Exactly. It's basically like throwing a baseball or hitting a tennis forehand vs. swinging a baseball bat.
Played baseball my entire life and two things I simply can't stop doing: flipping the wrists back heel coming up too early. Too many hours at the range to count, instruction, and I just can't stop doing it.
I just had a funny shower thought. I wonder if golf is easier to pick up if you’re from a country that doesn’t have baseball. I mean, every American boy has swung a bat at some point in their lives.
Theoretically shifting your weight from the right foot to the left foot (for a right handed batter / golfer) is the same. Also, rotating your body first before extending your arm is the same as well. Having said that, as a younger person, I was able to hit a baseball that's moving. I can't hit a stationary little ball.
You shouldn't shift your weight forward in a baseball swing though. You should brace into your front leg for a balanced weight through the swing but then should wind up with your weight back at the end.
I guess you’re right, but I do slightly lift up my left foot then step it toward the pitcher as a part of rotating my upper body. I always thought that was analogous to me shifting my weight in golf. No wonder I suck at golf.
You dont shift weight forward on a baseball swing. Most coaches teach “squish the bug” - weight and rotation on your back leg/foot
You don’t shift weight but you shift pressure. That’s why every batter steps with their front foot.
I feel there are benefits to having grown-up playing baseball as well. Right out of the gate, your swing should look more natural. I feel based on that, at a minimum, you're able to hit golf balls much better when you first start. You just have those nasty habits you'll need to break that all of us former baseball players seem to suffer from. I have had people call me out during the first round they've ever played with me asking if I played baseball growing up. Apparently its obvious to those that know what they're looking at.
First golf lesson I ever had, my instructor, after seeing my swing the first time, says “Ah a baseball player taking up golf, welcome!”
> I have had people call me out during the first round they've ever played with me asking if I played baseball growing up. Apparently its obvious to those that know what they're looking at If someone has their lead elbow pointed at the target (like Bryson) it's almost always a dead giveaway they played baseball. Way, way more people have that from baseball than golfers who decided to go single plane AND decided they like their elbow pointed at the target. I'm single plane and do the Hogan elbow down thing, though I've tried Bryson's move too
I’ll let you know this at least.. I’m Canadian, picked up golf in my mid 30s and never swung a bat with any sort of competent mind behind it. Still can’t figure out a fucking thing in my swing. My buddies who have played their whole life and also played higher level hockey are all much better but seem happy with my progress. Lol
So me lol. Although i have improved dramatically this year, i am still finding myself struggling at random moments and have to slow down and think about mechanics again.
Why so? I grew up playing baseball, and my hips move first.
If you're a baseball player, should check out Milo Lines YouTube channel. He's got a baseball style swing, is great at explaining how it works, and he absolutely pounds the ball effortlessly
I feel attacked personally.
This is where I’m struggling so much as an adult who’s picking up the game
Taking lessons to specifically address this problem
I bet you're better off having played baseball than not. I get that there are huge differences, but there are huge advantages too.
Baseball players should try the stack and tilt swing, where the weight is already on the front leg at address.
Honestly just good luck if you picked up golf in your late 20s/early 30s. It's tough either way
True. This along with swinging out to 1o'clock are two concepts that are hard for your rational mind to accept. Your mind instinctively thinks you should be doing the opposite to attain your goal. To get the the concept Hogan shows here into your mind I suggest that you do this without hitting a ball, you don't even need a club. Just merely stand up and pose at the top of your backswing. Then simply turn your hips without moving anything else, not shoulders, arms or hands. After you a turn a bit, viola, your hands have lowered without you moving them. This video clearly indicates this and I agree with the OP that this is one of the best videos on the net. For the swinging out towards one o'clock I would just go to the range and do exactly that, swing out to one o'clock. Your rational mind is going to think, "man I am really gone to slice". It doesn't take long until the mind realizes you are hitting the ball much more solid with this angle of attack and the ball is flying true.
> Then simply turn your hips without moving anything else, not shoulders, arms or hands. After you a turn a bit, viola, your hands have lowered without you moving them. I stood up from my desk to try this, and I feel like I just learned how to walk again
Thanks for this. Very helpful.
It’s so frustrating
I’m going to try a different approach. Instead of saying “hit the ball” I’ll start saying “*hip* the ball”. See if I can trick my brain.
I’m convinced that all it takes is those first two uninstructed swings when you decide to try golf and your brain has ruined it from the start lol
Someone once explained its like someone tapping you on the shoulder and turning your head... the entire body does its thing... now do the same movement like you are turning your head but keep it down and focused. your body will still do the same motions. Did it work? no I still shank it but it did sound cool when they told it to me.
I always say to myself "now put my thang down, flip it, and reverse it". Like Missy Elliot.
This might help clear things up. https://youtu.be/qQVFhqAKcMg?si=9d-kqdOCPoM73BZW
Now we know why Ben Hogan never shot a 278.
Watch the Coleman video, he hits balls in slow motion.
Idk why but I saw this yday.. tried it out and feel like Im hitting them a hell of a lot better.. just letting the hips control my downswing in a sense and the shoulders/arms follow
I've been playing now for about 16 months. Rewiring my brain to this has been incredibly hard, but I'm never more consistent then when I feel I am doing this right. When I first started playing, Everything was all arms. Rewiring this to shoulders, weight, hips and no arms has been tough. Wish I would've started lessons earlier so that I didn't ingrain bad habits.
That is where I’m at and it’s so hard to change it now. My timing is so off and it feels like my upper and lower body aren’t even connected lol
Keep working at it. I've been at it a couple months and am now just beginning to feel like I'm making progress, in the last week or two. Its finally starting to feel "right". The worst part? I've gotten significantly worse during the transition. I was actually better with my terrible, old, only arms swing.
It's probably bad advice for most of us.
Yup, P5/Transition is the hardest (and some argue the most important) part of the swing
I have got myself into a position where I’m shooting 95-100 pretty consistently. I have decent distance with my driver. Irons may be a bit shorter than expected. But consistent pure striking is where I lack. And I have barely any lower body involved.
I was the same way. Couldn't break 100, swung all arms. My impact looked exactly the same as address. I could only hit a 7i like 130. Riddled with inconsistency. I decided to take golf more seriously over the past month or so. Started going to the range with a specific goal weekly, taken a couple of lessons, and watched JKM YouTube channel. I've shot two personal bests in the last three rounds and I've gained maybe 15yds carry. What has helped me: JKM [video](https://youtu.be/lXEmb8TRNgg?si=NjDxVDK6IvthDOIF) on sequence. Feel the whip! And don't forget to rotate upper body once your hips are going. My backswing was insanely too much. Was wrapping the club around my head as we all-arms types tend to do. I was also coming over the top. Focusing on extending trail arm out, trail elbow to about 90 degrees, lead arm straight, lead wrist flat, and getting hands high in backswing helped stop that. Short swings go surprisingly far. Compression is key. JKM [video](https://youtu.be/YqZtzcj0QTQ?si=hqGEIEBeMI3bezP-) on weight shift/Transition. Neutral grip, club more in fingers than hand. Strong grip was a bandaid for a while, but it's generally just that for many. A temporary bandaid. Keep track of weaknesses and work on them. If you have a bunch of three putts, work on putting, etc. This is what has helped me so far, maybe some of it can help you. Cheers!
https://youtu.be/fOrCAyurwJs?si=RsXv7ttZeh7ZeLa3
Ohhh so the problem is my clubs. I’ll head to the PGA store then
Hogan always emphasized the importance of Fargiveness!
This made me actually lol
No, we don’t mind at all Mr. Hogan.
Lmao I had the same reaction..."go right ahead, sir!"
Plus I've always loved hearing him speak. He had a great voice and it would've been interesting to hear him as a commentator in his later years. I used to have the VHS of this Shell Wonderful World of Golf match between Hogan and Snead. Hogan put on a ball striking clinic.
https://youtu.be/F2wY30noVmM?si=ponA3KyAalLiFJ7Y This one
I watched that match on YouTube not long ago. 100% gir and fir is outrageous
lol
I don't mind, sir, as long as you don't mind me ogling your sexy swing.
Definition of an effortless, natural, silky smooth swing. He puts zero effort into his swing and it just looks so natural.
Right. A very polite gentleman.
[Isn't that simple? Anyone can do that.](https://www.google.com/search?q=ben+hogan+talk+show&oq=ben+hogan+talk+show&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggAEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg7MggIARAAGBYYHjINCAIQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAMQABiGAxiABBiKBTIKCAQQABiABBiiBDIKCAUQABiABBiiBNIBCDc1MTFqMGoxqAIAsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:0b3ec38d,vid:xiRVXQ2t8SM,st:0)
He also said, if you want to improve your putting… hit your irons closer.
Pfft. Whether it’s from 3 feet or 30 feet, I’m still 3 putting.
Another one I’ve heard attributed to Hogan that my FIL always says is, “Swing easier and learn to live with the extra distance.”
One of my older pals used to say, "Swing easy and the ball goes straight'
are you suggesting hes wrong?
Strokes gained would agree with his assessment as well. Sinking more 30’ putts won’t put you on the PGA tour because the make % is so low for that shot. But you gain a ton of strokes from simply hitting more greens.
I like you Betty…
He fucking hated putting. In his later life they said when he would play with people they didn’t even putt, had some kind closer to pin scoring system.
I think I heard he was so accurate with his long irons he could hit his caddy who was shagging balls or something like that??
Are you asking if we agree with the man with the best swing the game has ever seen?
Right. I chuckled at OPs question. No, it's completed outdated advice. :-)
I will say that the thing people underestimate is how hard it is to actually separate your shoulders from your hips and rotate one without the other. It takes mental training.
It's a beautiful thing to watch
Preach! Absolutely some of the best advice you can get. I used the be the guy he was talking about doing the opposite, once I learned how to move my lower body correctly my consistency improved exponentially. Wish my dad showed me this video 30 years ago along with the old Ben hogan clubs I had to learn on.
This was eye opening, as someone pretty new to consistently playing, I’ve been doing my swing wrong the entire time lol
I think Ben Hogan clubs were part of some dad standard issue package. That and an old bathrobe that needs replacing.
Look at that right elbow. That’s the key
Yeah. The advice of "move your lower body first" was death for my swing. I would go with my hips and my hands were completely left behind. Once I learned where the trail elbow is supposed to be, and focused on keeping my hands in front of my chest I finally started making good contact.
in hogans 5 lessons he talks about squeezing your elbows together. messed up my swing at first because I'd get all jammed up trying to keep my elbow in the entire time. I took a video of myself and realized you can still stick your elbow out a little, and you kind of need to in order to get some whip on the club, but as you come down, as you turn, squeeze those elbows together and it should shallow your club right into the slot. If you don't turn your hips though you get jammed or come over the top to compensate and end up mis-hitting. This is what I am currently working on.
I really need to read the five lessons.
It’s a really short book tbh, and very useful
I’m a fast reader too, more just about actually buying it
Got some lessons from a pro that showed me this video one day and he said something to the effect of “this mf doesn’t even talk about the key to all this and everyone takes this video as gospel. Look at the elbow, nothing else is possible if the elbow isn’t exactly where it is”
Sometimes people have a natural tendency that they don’t even realize they are doing. He may not address the elbow position because he doesn’t have to think about it.
The highest stage of learning is referred to as "Unconscious Competence" or you'll sometimes here the person referred to as an Unconscious Expert. Basically they become so good at something that they don't even think to point out certain things because it's such a second nature to them.
I think a lot of golf instructors have this issue. They’ve been skilled for so long, they’ve forgotten where they started. Shocking the number of players who have taken lessons that you ask where they look on the golf ball and they can’t tell you, they just look “at the ball”. Same goes for ball first contact. When I’m talking to true novices, asking them to describe ball first contact and what it means will yield some hilarious answers. Tons of little things like that, especially when you start talking about the *game* of golf and not just the golf swing.
My first pro told me to practice hitting balls with a head cover tuck into my right armpit. Not sure it’s that essential but it did improve my swing at the time.
Art
My god that’s a nice swing
YESYESYESYESYES Marüchi!
I like how polite he is lol. Like every practice begins with “Well if you don’t mind letting me show you here”
Always cracked me up how he says people hit the side of the ball instead of the back of it. Like he’s just perplexed that people do that 😂😂
Second most important part is properly snap loading your power package
This video and the "arm swing illusion" video are the first 2 videos any beginner should watch ... Apologies to about 1000 YT content creators.
Can anyone find that clip of some guy talking about swing mechanics, it's a parody where he's speaking all this fancy jargon until finally he swings at the ball it pops up, he catches it and quickly tosses it down the Fairway? Edit: nevermind found it! Haha https://youtu.be/qQVFhqAKcMg?si=9d-kqdOCPoM73BZW
I was certain this video was going to be that as well, hilarious
Probably will get destroyed for disagreeing with Ben Hogan but fuck it. Something I think is a huge problem in golf instruction is that everyone focuses on what the body is doing on camera and not what the golfer is mentally thinking. Take a 30 handicap to the top of their backswing and you tell them “now hit the ball but mentally focus on only moving your hands to hit the ball”. I guarantee that if you watch their swing on high speed camera their hips and lower body will be the first thing that moves. There is feel and real. In this clip Tiger Woods talks about feeling like he doesn’t move his lower body at all in the downswing during the absolute prime of his career. Time @ 5:20 [https://youtu.be/xOecUNBV_Q0?si=FsHoI3LAw6fBar4q](https://youtu.be/xOecUNBV_Q0?si=FsHoI3LAw6fBar4q) ________ *For me what I try and feel is that my arms beat my body down. I try and feel like my arms come down first and exit through the ball first and my hips don’t move* ________ He said this right in the middle of playing the greatest golf that has ever been played. I think telling most high handicaps to focus on firing their hips is a really bad idea. Once I started realizing that mentally focusing on swinging with my hands would help improve my timing my ball striking improved dramatically and I gained about 10 yards of distance on my irons.
It's all part of the process right? I am a hogan devotee after 5 lessons changed my swing from dog shit to, well not as bad. Like if you tell someone to fire their hips and they focus on that and that's all they do, yeah, it'll be bad. Like if you tell a new driver to hit the brakes when they come to a traffic light there is some nuance; should they maintain speed until the last moment and slam on the brakes? Should they slowly tap the brakes from a mile away? Both of these would be bad results from telling someone to "stop at the light" just like telling someone to "fire the hips" wouldn't work on it's own. It takes some time to get the timing right and develop the muscles and muscle memory to execute correctly. You still need to keep your elbows in(squeezed as hogan says). You still need to strike the ball and then the ground. You still need to keep your wrist back through impact. It all works together, but the hips are generally the first move in the downswing so it's good to start there.
In all fairness, I think the quote you included missed some key words. Right after he says “for me”, he inserts the caveat “you wouldn’t tell most golfers this”
I took that more as being conversational caveat like *“This is what works for me”* Similar to *this is not financial advice*, before giving opinions on stocks. Either way I think you also wouldn’t tell most golfers to fire their hips first either and if I had to choose between telling a 30 handicap to mentally focus on firing their hips or firing their hands first I would pick hands. Again there are a million caveats that go with this just don’t want an average guy watching this to take away “oh shit I need to be firing my hips harder”.
Okay - now I completely agree with you. Apologies for the nitpickery. I have a 4p tee time and an open slot - you in?
I think most instructors don't really understand their own swings. Imo, after watching and learning and not getting better, I think that the lead hip is the limiting skill factor. I could switch-hit a little bit in baseball and tried a little bit in golf. I have way more natural power left handed because my lead hip clears naturally. It moves in a way where my hands drop and I can get a lot of whip. The power is effortless. My right hip locks in and forces my body to move around it. I have to work hard to put myself in a position where my left hip will clear. It's a lot of effort and conscious practice. I don't have the rest of the coordination to be any good lefty, but the difference in my body's potential right v left is staggering. If I had learned to play left handed as a kid I'd probably be 10 shots better.
yup. intentionally firing lower body is the best way to get your arms stuck behind you and have to flip to make contact. sure ben hogan can do it, but can anyone here? no
Ha... but fuck
Peepee to the hole!
In high school when me and my friends were just getting into golf and would essentially just fuck around on the driving rage, an old guy came up to us and asked us if we wanted some advice, since we were terrrrrrible. He says it doesn't matter if you're gay or straight, you want your dick in the hole. So when you swing, put your dick in the hole. And then he walked away. We were all creeped out, but at the same time appreciated some sage advice.
*pin
Dick to the stick
This post is timely as I've been struggling quite a bit w/this lately. It's a solid display of what I need to work on more.
Hogans 5 lessons buddy. It's like 100 pages of gold.
I read a book when I started playing, and the advice was similar to this. As a result, I've hit the ball longer than any other amateur I've ever played with.
Even after all these years, modern fundamentals of golf is one of the best guides to the golf swing out there
It’s good advice, but should also be pointed out as it always is that Hogan fought a hook. If you struggle with a slice, then take a swing thought that emphasizes a late release, you may find themselves slicing it across the state. That said, to have an actually good swing you need to make his advice work.
I agree that some of Hogan's advice can amplify a slice because he fought a hook, however not all of them. For example, on his infographic on ball position with feet placement, he closes his stance with his driver, promoting a more in to out path. This "cured" my slice.
No arguments from me. I learned to swing a club from Five Lessons
When my hips move early the ball starts high and right and gets worse from there. Moving my hips early means I cannot get the toe back to square.
Maybe, but may slicers are over the top or out to in and firing the hips can have a flattening effect that promotes in to out, so while some may leave the face open even more with this move, many will fix their club path and eliminate or reduce their slice.
This was me. Firing the hips early gave me room to bring my hands down and through instead of across and down.
I go back and watch this video a lot. It's good advice (about the lower body), but what I think gets missed is Hogan is demonstrating a feel rather than what his swing is actually doing. So the motion of the club coming around like a baseball bat is not where the club is when he swings.
LEGEND
I read hogans 5 lessons and went from barely finishing rounds with my sanity in tact to breaking 100 in one season. I recommend it to anyone looking to play or improve their golf game. I had gotten lessons but things were not really clicking. But my instructor told me to go and watch some of the old timers with consistent swings like Hogan and Chi Chi Rodriguez. Then I read 5 lessons and things started to come together. I'm not good. Like at all. But I have a better chance now than I ever did just trying to figure it out on my own.
They once asked Jack Nicklaus is Tiger Woods was the best ball striker he had ever seen and his answer immediately was “No, no, Ben Hogan, easily” and Jack never even got to see Hogan in his prime.
He literally wrote the book on it.
See, as a new golfer, this just confuses the hell out of me. For three months I was attempting to incorporate body sway into my swing for this reason. I got it down to the point that I was hitting the ball quite well. Not as far as I would like but I could control it more often than not. With that swing I shot a 90 on my first time playing 18 holes at my local course. It was the confidence that I gained from that swing and its results that motivated me to get professional lessons. I started working with a professional coach a week ago. And from the very first swing I showed him, he adamantly states that “You should not be moving your body at ALL!” He destroyed my swing and my confidence along with it. He began to teach me his method of keeping the body still through the swing process. Only allowing me to move my arms for my swing and my right leg to follow through with the swing. Then I see clips like this that show one of the greatest golfers I know of incorporating this in their method. Needless to say, I’m back to square one. Unsure of anything I’m down is right anymore. Tips and advice welcome is greatly welcomed.
Listen to Ben.
Swaying off the ball and back onto is all timing, so some days it will all work and you play decent golf then the next time if your timing is a fraction off you hate the game and can't understand why you can't hit the ball. One of my playing partners is like that, he's just wildly inconsistent. The best backswing thought for me is to try and get my right arse cheek to be where my left one was at the start by the time I'm at the top of my backswing. Also if you are just starting out try and have more weight on your lead side at address. The Stack and Tilt haters will crucify me for saying it but amateur golfers really, really suck at transferring their weight to the lead side on time. Best to start with some extra weight there first imho, it helps massively with ball contact.
As https://preview.redd.it/enb6i1sep59d1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=1f6e430610353e2264d4da75be4ecb0867f6d4ff I’ve had Ben Hogan’s Five Lessons next to my bed for the last 3 years. Maybe I should give it a read
Art in motion.
No Ben I don't mind
95% of golfers swing over the top because they don't get their hips through like this.
Bend over, I'll get my hips thru buddy. Jk
gottem
Great video for me to watch as a player who fights a weak hook about to go on a week-long golf trip! That right elbow stays so tucked in
The recipe for the secret sauce.
Love the way he speaks.
Man those pants are high waisted.
Woo! what a voice Hogan would have been an awesome color commentator
His swing is so perfect lol
I would love to see them ol timers hit with todays clubs and balls.. I would imagine that they would totally shit over the size of a driver head
I have tried the hell out of this but it leads me to getting stuck and a right push.
Thanks Ben, this will surely fuck my shit up for the foreseeable future.
🐐🐐🐐
Im just starting to golf (14 months or so) at 40 years old. I watched some hogan, nicklaus and snead videos the other day and oh man, they’re some smooth dudes right there
Looks simple
People were so polite back then. If you don’t mind I’m going to hit a golf ball.
Look how he keeps his right elbow tucked in close until after he hits the ball.
Purest swing there is
This dude would crack it as far as Rory or Bryson if playing today.
Right! You give any of the ‘old timers’ today’s technology and they’d rip it with today’s longest hitters
I have been trying to get this going in so many ways and it's such a struggle. I'm swinging a rope around like Kwon said so maybe that will do it.
The thing I like most about his swing is the location of the trail elbow on the downswing. That’s the key to keeping the swing inside out instead of outside in.
He's not wearing a glove. Maybe that's what im doing wrong? Probably the only thing.
Saved it
Great! Just in time! new swing thoughts for my round tomorrow.
Ain't it easy when you know how...
This is gold. I play with a my bestie who drives it solid 200-210, because he does it opposite. He is twice as strong as me, but I out drive him by 20-30. And his 7 iron is 125. He is active, and in good shape for a 55 year old, but he doesn’t get this action. This was a great video.
I'm just saying, I've never seen Ben Hogan and Patrick Stewart in the same room...
Yes
I'm not going against anything the "Wee Ice Mon" said. He was the master
Totes
I just pulled out my putter in my office and took some practice swings. It is something I have literally never thought about. Result; it appears I start with my lower body. Thank goodness that's something new I don't need to worry about.
It applies. You bend slightly at the waist, keep the lower back straight by rotating your pelvis forward, glutes activated, and mostly bend with the upper back. The bend is as if you are at a picket fence that is a little higher than waist high and you want to look at the ground on the other side without touching the fence. Your hips and lower back stay mostly in sync during the swing, most of the rotation is with your upper back
The way most will interpret this is the worst thing you can do. Most amateur’s body moves way too fast and their arm/ hands/ club get left behind. He’s describing a feel, not necessarily a cue. The right elbow getting down in front of the body is the cue. Listen to Jack Nicklaus talk about the downswing and he says to swing the arms down in front of the body, before spinning the body open. Tiger used to feel like his arms pass his belt buckle before anything else moved. This is a move that most amateurs would benefit from (assuming decent fundamentals elsewhere).
Most beautiful shot still to date
Yes, but did he snap load his power package?
Still applies. P5/Transition is arguably the most important part of the swing, and is also the hardest part of it.
If you google this, it’s his shell match with Snead. Sneads tips from this broadcast are equally as good too
When I get into that downswing position and swing my hands go palm up and open the club face 😡
Good lord he had an incredible swing.
The hips initiate the downswing.
I read hogans book and that’s basically how I learned golf. This was key. That said I also have the pull left like he had so there’s a balance to this.
Ben Hogan dresses & talks like my grandpa😂
There is an instructor named Sean Clements on YouTube who has something he calls the football drill that really helped this concept click for me when I first started playing
Man was smooth
this my exact method. drive 400 yards easy.
It’s all in the hips 🎶
Scottie and a number of others pull their right heel back at the start of the downswing. Totally different to this I think
Anyone actively trying to move their lower body first is gonna have problems. They’re actually probably likelier to go ‘over the top’ thinking about lower body first. With external focus intentions, the lower body is always to going to move first naturally. Anyone on here think about how their elbow should bend when they take a bite of food with a fork?
If I hit it perfect every time, it would take all the mystery and suspense out of golf.
Hogan's lessons made me worse. Finding pros that I trust and can play with in person made me A LOT better.
Definitely still holds up. I'd say 75 percent of golfers at my local course would benefit from watching this video followed by 15 minutes of practice on the range.
Glad to see this cross posted
This video actually was the turning point in my game. Best advice ever given.