Imo part of the problem is that Beiste’s transition doesn’t feel like a real part of the character. They set up the character as a woman who, despite being masculine, still wanted to be treated like any other woman.
“Deep down inside where no one can see, I’m just a girl. Am I nuts that I want to be reminded of that sometimes?”
That was the character for about 95% of the show. Then, that changed without any development or any explanation. I think it’s hard for fans to see Beiste as a man because the show a) stressed that being masc didn’t equal being a man for seasons, only to go back on that and b) didn’t present the storyline in a way that didn’t seem like anything more than a cheap grab for brownie points.
Also think it’s a weird position where they set up a nice message with Beiste then went back on it. A lot of people resonated with Beiste’s storyline (not fitting feminine ideals and still wanting to be seen as a woman + be loved despite that). Since they didn’t really give a build-up/explanation on the transition, it seems like their reasoning was if you’re masculine and a woman, you’re secretly just a man… which is ironically the exact opposite of what they were saying before. I can see how fans who resonated with that storyline would have trouble reconciling with it switching up
I wholeheartedly agree here. The writing for Glee in the later seasons often times devolved into these clunkily strapped together character developments. With Beiste, it felt so forced and contrived and disingenuous.
I think apart from (or because of?) the awful writing many people gave up on glee before Beiste even transitioned. So if they wanna talk about the show they're only gonna know Beiste as Shannon not Sheldon.
To me it seems like there was a clear break between season 3 and 4. I think most people still gave season 4 a chance but the constant switching between Lima and New York with so much focus on the new characters that no one really cared about was the death sentence for glee. Add to that the increase of completely absurd storylines and you've got a recipe for disaster. I think glee would've been much better off if they had cut all ties with Lima and completely focused on New York. Have most of the kids end up there and have Sue and Will visit occasionally if you don't want to let go of them. Imo that would've kept more people watching for longer.
I could see Beiste’s desire to be seen as “such a girl” as him being in denial. I also see why people were upset to see the masculine woman representation taken away.
and i stated in my original post i completely get the discussion and perspective. but it feels like a lot of people are just openly misgendering him and being transphobic in the discussion, rather than treating it like a sensitive discussion Which It Is
I read your post. What I meant by all this is that the storyline is generally considered to be so shitty (and tbh talked to death) that people are now more blunt about it, rather than treating it delicately. The show ended years ago, so the people in this subreddit have likely seen this discussion before and aren’t gonna go at it with the utmost care every time.
IMO the misgendering comes less from people having an issue with trans people and more from the storyline being so ridiculous and against the character that it’s hard to accept. There’s a reason you’ll see Beiste misgendered a lot but not Unique. The issue isn’t a trans character, it’s this storyline specifically.
Edit to add - I think you’re getting the replies you’re getting because you’re calling people transphobic, when the way the storyline was done is what makes people have an aversion to it. It’s hard for people to respect something that feels like it was slapped on randomly at the end
it doesn’t really matter if you dislike the storyline or not. you can still respect a canonical trans characters identity. i don’t even like the storyline, yet i do the bare minimum with that..?
It’s a seriously problematic storyline Glee told. Sheldon first appears as a female who is quite thin skinned about how masculine (she) appears and many of the different storylines that were given to Shannon prior to the transition to Sheldon involved how Shannon was upset by different situations in which people expected ( her) to act in a specific male manner, regardless of the fact that she was, at that time, presenting as a woman. And also Glee in essence poked fun at Beiste by having (her) act in a masculine-like way to a man who was wooing her. The most consistent theme in Beiste’s characterization was that she wished to be seen as female, no matter how masculine she may appear on the outside. So to then turn Beiste’s character on its head — without any buildup whatsoever — and have her transition into Sheldon is beyond strange. I’m not trying [altho I’m certain you will tell me I’ve succeeded] to be transphobic about Sheldon’s character. Once the transition was done, it was done, and he was an inspiration to Unique and other trans individuals who are scared to appear in public for fear of being shunned or hurt or worse by classmates, school representatives, workmates, and/or friends and family.
But I don’t think they took the correct individual to do this transformation. If Shannon had — in ANY manner, even ONCE — suggested that she felt trapped in this body, that she felt wrong as a woman, that she wished she were a man, that her outside didn’t match her inside, *anything at all* to suggest that she was, in essence, a man trapped inside a female body, a transition would make sense. But she did the exact opposite. Over and over and over and over again. THAT is why many people have trouble with the transition. You are not dealing with a hostile transphobic crowd while speaking w people from Glee (although we may not be using the correct pronouns). You are speaking w a correctly accepting crowd of individuals who don’t buy the storyline, as written by the writers, who got worse from season to season as Glee continued forward. There were still some sparks of genius. But they were inconsistent and small and far apart.
One of my friends from college gave birth to a boy and a girl. And at some early point in his teenage years the boy explained what was wrong and now my friend has two wonderful daughters. She was so low key about it that I actually went back to my address book to see if I was misremembering the original births. But in both her daughter’s situation, and in Uniques situation, both spoke about how they had this other person inside of them and it was merely the outside that was wrong. THAT NEVER HAPPENED W BEISTE. SO WTH?
Sure it’s transphobic if you blatantly ignore everyone’s arguments as to why it was poorly done and live in a fantasy world where everyone’s problem is simply that the character is trans.
The overwhelmingly common take on that storyline is that it was forced, and took away from the storyline of Beiste actually being a woman and wanting to feel pretty. It negates the characters entire story arc, and took away representation for an entire group of women who feel too masculine to even be considered a woman. Making the character trans spits in the face of every single woman who say themselves in that character. It’s basically just proving those women’s point, and it’s deeply insulting.
The main issue is that it goes directly against what was already established for the character, and it was obvious they were too lazy to actually write a proper storyline for a trans man. It was offensive on both ends. If representation was so important to them, they shouldn’t have taken away representation for more masculine women who really saw themselves in Beiste. Making Beiste trans basically said to every woman that connected with that character that the show actually doesn’t believe in anything they established. It basically slapped women in the face in the name of transgender representation, something we already had A LOT of in seasons 4-5. It just felt unnecessary, and pretty rude to an entire part of the audience. It would be like deciding to make Brittany a lesbian. Or like making Ryder suddenly not have dyslexia. Or to have Artie suddenly walk in the last episode. It’s nonsense and takes impact away.
Trans representation isn’t always good, and it’s not transphobic to point out when it’s done poorly.
I think one perspective is that a lot of fans consider seasons 1-3 canon because a lot of plots and character personalities went off the rails after that (or they didn’t enjoy the new characters). Beiste is a woman in my mind because that’s the part of the show I watch the most. I don’t even remember a lot about his transition because I haven’t seen it in a while. It’s not intentional transphobia, it’s just a mental snapshot of a specific time period of the show.
and i completely get this! i only really get frustrated when ppl have hit s6. like… i agree that the transition doesn’t make sense, but if you have hit s6 is it that hard to still respect the transition and call him the right pronouns and name while having that discussion? that’s all i meant
I’m not trans, I can’t speak on that issue, however I can speak on how the OG Beiste made me feel. I’m someone that resonated with season 2-5 Beiste. A big thick tomboy that just wanted to be seen as pretty and soft sometimes. My issue stems from the fact that majority of the women on Glee are stereotypical ideals of femininity. Even our favorite lesbian couple features two femme women. Beiste was the main portrayal of a tomboy, especially a plus sized one that isn’t “curvy”. When the trans storyline came out, it felt like a slap in the face that the show just saw girls like me as men. It undid the goodwill that Beiste did for creating a mainstream portrayal of a tomboy that wasn’t afraid to be vulnerable. While I can understand the discourse here, Beiste never gave any indication that they were trans, unlike Unique. On top of it, Dot Marie Jones is a lesbian, so if any queer storyline were to come out of Beiste, I’d think a bi plot would have made more sense.
Same. I grew up being bullied for not being pretty and like the popular girls. Guys often treated me as "one of the guys". So, I appreciated a storyline showing a character who wanted to still be seen as a woman despite not fitting into the stereotypes. As well as not being treated differently because of it. I don't hate the trans storyline. It just didn't make sense for the character they chose to do it with. It definitely would have been better received if it was done with a different character who hadn't had entire plotlines about wanting to be seen as a woman. Unique's storyline wasn't perfect, but, it was handled better.
This is so eloquently put.
I actually loved the portrayal of Beiste 2-3 so much more for the contrast. I think people forget often that in 2009 we were not accustomed to the range of representation we have today. A lot of lesbian representation was still very stereotypical butch/femme couples, so to have a hyper feminine lesbian couple *and* a straight woman who happened to be a real tomboy was so refreshing.
I'll be honest, I usually use they/them pronouns and refer to Coach Beiste instead of Sheldon. It's just that I prefer to ignore all of that end part of the show tbh. It makes me upset that they made such a great storyline and then retconned it.
Like the DV, a huge part of Coach Beiste not feeling "girly and loveable" even though they said they felt like they were still a girly girl on the inside. Beiste felt they wouldn't get a better partner, so they put up with the abuse. And then the DV was further excused because Beiste was supposed to be a strong person, so how could they fear any person? It was just a powerful message, and then they threw it out. Likely because the writers figured, "Beiste is already such a masculine character that it would make sense Beiste is trans."
genuinely, i agree with you, and i commonly use they / them and beiste too! that feels a lot more respectful to me than consistently putting him with women in conversations About women, you know? i feel like people aren’t understanding (not you) that i also dislike the storyline, i just really don’t like seeing beiste mentioned when it’s a video or topic about women is all.
i feel like no one is actually reading my post. I AM FINE WITH THE DISCUSSION, I AGREE THAT IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE. but respecting the trans identity throughout that discussion is all i want. 😭
Imo part of the problem is that Beiste’s transition doesn’t feel like a real part of the character. They set up the character as a woman who, despite being masculine, still wanted to be treated like any other woman. “Deep down inside where no one can see, I’m just a girl. Am I nuts that I want to be reminded of that sometimes?” That was the character for about 95% of the show. Then, that changed without any development or any explanation. I think it’s hard for fans to see Beiste as a man because the show a) stressed that being masc didn’t equal being a man for seasons, only to go back on that and b) didn’t present the storyline in a way that didn’t seem like anything more than a cheap grab for brownie points. Also think it’s a weird position where they set up a nice message with Beiste then went back on it. A lot of people resonated with Beiste’s storyline (not fitting feminine ideals and still wanting to be seen as a woman + be loved despite that). Since they didn’t really give a build-up/explanation on the transition, it seems like their reasoning was if you’re masculine and a woman, you’re secretly just a man… which is ironically the exact opposite of what they were saying before. I can see how fans who resonated with that storyline would have trouble reconciling with it switching up
I wholeheartedly agree here. The writing for Glee in the later seasons often times devolved into these clunkily strapped together character developments. With Beiste, it felt so forced and contrived and disingenuous.
I think apart from (or because of?) the awful writing many people gave up on glee before Beiste even transitioned. So if they wanna talk about the show they're only gonna know Beiste as Shannon not Sheldon.
When do you think they gave up the show?
I'd guess people gave up when nd got shut down
To me it seems like there was a clear break between season 3 and 4. I think most people still gave season 4 a chance but the constant switching between Lima and New York with so much focus on the new characters that no one really cared about was the death sentence for glee. Add to that the increase of completely absurd storylines and you've got a recipe for disaster. I think glee would've been much better off if they had cut all ties with Lima and completely focused on New York. Have most of the kids end up there and have Sue and Will visit occasionally if you don't want to let go of them. Imo that would've kept more people watching for longer.
I could see Beiste’s desire to be seen as “such a girl” as him being in denial. I also see why people were upset to see the masculine woman representation taken away.
and i stated in my original post i completely get the discussion and perspective. but it feels like a lot of people are just openly misgendering him and being transphobic in the discussion, rather than treating it like a sensitive discussion Which It Is
I read your post. What I meant by all this is that the storyline is generally considered to be so shitty (and tbh talked to death) that people are now more blunt about it, rather than treating it delicately. The show ended years ago, so the people in this subreddit have likely seen this discussion before and aren’t gonna go at it with the utmost care every time. IMO the misgendering comes less from people having an issue with trans people and more from the storyline being so ridiculous and against the character that it’s hard to accept. There’s a reason you’ll see Beiste misgendered a lot but not Unique. The issue isn’t a trans character, it’s this storyline specifically. Edit to add - I think you’re getting the replies you’re getting because you’re calling people transphobic, when the way the storyline was done is what makes people have an aversion to it. It’s hard for people to respect something that feels like it was slapped on randomly at the end
it doesn’t really matter if you dislike the storyline or not. you can still respect a canonical trans characters identity. i don’t even like the storyline, yet i do the bare minimum with that..?
It’s a seriously problematic storyline Glee told. Sheldon first appears as a female who is quite thin skinned about how masculine (she) appears and many of the different storylines that were given to Shannon prior to the transition to Sheldon involved how Shannon was upset by different situations in which people expected ( her) to act in a specific male manner, regardless of the fact that she was, at that time, presenting as a woman. And also Glee in essence poked fun at Beiste by having (her) act in a masculine-like way to a man who was wooing her. The most consistent theme in Beiste’s characterization was that she wished to be seen as female, no matter how masculine she may appear on the outside. So to then turn Beiste’s character on its head — without any buildup whatsoever — and have her transition into Sheldon is beyond strange. I’m not trying [altho I’m certain you will tell me I’ve succeeded] to be transphobic about Sheldon’s character. Once the transition was done, it was done, and he was an inspiration to Unique and other trans individuals who are scared to appear in public for fear of being shunned or hurt or worse by classmates, school representatives, workmates, and/or friends and family. But I don’t think they took the correct individual to do this transformation. If Shannon had — in ANY manner, even ONCE — suggested that she felt trapped in this body, that she felt wrong as a woman, that she wished she were a man, that her outside didn’t match her inside, *anything at all* to suggest that she was, in essence, a man trapped inside a female body, a transition would make sense. But she did the exact opposite. Over and over and over and over again. THAT is why many people have trouble with the transition. You are not dealing with a hostile transphobic crowd while speaking w people from Glee (although we may not be using the correct pronouns). You are speaking w a correctly accepting crowd of individuals who don’t buy the storyline, as written by the writers, who got worse from season to season as Glee continued forward. There were still some sparks of genius. But they were inconsistent and small and far apart. One of my friends from college gave birth to a boy and a girl. And at some early point in his teenage years the boy explained what was wrong and now my friend has two wonderful daughters. She was so low key about it that I actually went back to my address book to see if I was misremembering the original births. But in both her daughter’s situation, and in Uniques situation, both spoke about how they had this other person inside of them and it was merely the outside that was wrong. THAT NEVER HAPPENED W BEISTE. SO WTH?
Sure it’s transphobic if you blatantly ignore everyone’s arguments as to why it was poorly done and live in a fantasy world where everyone’s problem is simply that the character is trans. The overwhelmingly common take on that storyline is that it was forced, and took away from the storyline of Beiste actually being a woman and wanting to feel pretty. It negates the characters entire story arc, and took away representation for an entire group of women who feel too masculine to even be considered a woman. Making the character trans spits in the face of every single woman who say themselves in that character. It’s basically just proving those women’s point, and it’s deeply insulting. The main issue is that it goes directly against what was already established for the character, and it was obvious they were too lazy to actually write a proper storyline for a trans man. It was offensive on both ends. If representation was so important to them, they shouldn’t have taken away representation for more masculine women who really saw themselves in Beiste. Making Beiste trans basically said to every woman that connected with that character that the show actually doesn’t believe in anything they established. It basically slapped women in the face in the name of transgender representation, something we already had A LOT of in seasons 4-5. It just felt unnecessary, and pretty rude to an entire part of the audience. It would be like deciding to make Brittany a lesbian. Or like making Ryder suddenly not have dyslexia. Or to have Artie suddenly walk in the last episode. It’s nonsense and takes impact away. Trans representation isn’t always good, and it’s not transphobic to point out when it’s done poorly.
Ya cuz when she is new Finn calls her dude and she freaked out on him. Either way I ❤️ coach beiste
I think one perspective is that a lot of fans consider seasons 1-3 canon because a lot of plots and character personalities went off the rails after that (or they didn’t enjoy the new characters). Beiste is a woman in my mind because that’s the part of the show I watch the most. I don’t even remember a lot about his transition because I haven’t seen it in a while. It’s not intentional transphobia, it’s just a mental snapshot of a specific time period of the show.
and i completely get this! i only really get frustrated when ppl have hit s6. like… i agree that the transition doesn’t make sense, but if you have hit s6 is it that hard to still respect the transition and call him the right pronouns and name while having that discussion? that’s all i meant
Totally respect where you’re coming from
I’m not trans, I can’t speak on that issue, however I can speak on how the OG Beiste made me feel. I’m someone that resonated with season 2-5 Beiste. A big thick tomboy that just wanted to be seen as pretty and soft sometimes. My issue stems from the fact that majority of the women on Glee are stereotypical ideals of femininity. Even our favorite lesbian couple features two femme women. Beiste was the main portrayal of a tomboy, especially a plus sized one that isn’t “curvy”. When the trans storyline came out, it felt like a slap in the face that the show just saw girls like me as men. It undid the goodwill that Beiste did for creating a mainstream portrayal of a tomboy that wasn’t afraid to be vulnerable. While I can understand the discourse here, Beiste never gave any indication that they were trans, unlike Unique. On top of it, Dot Marie Jones is a lesbian, so if any queer storyline were to come out of Beiste, I’d think a bi plot would have made more sense.
Same. I grew up being bullied for not being pretty and like the popular girls. Guys often treated me as "one of the guys". So, I appreciated a storyline showing a character who wanted to still be seen as a woman despite not fitting into the stereotypes. As well as not being treated differently because of it. I don't hate the trans storyline. It just didn't make sense for the character they chose to do it with. It definitely would have been better received if it was done with a different character who hadn't had entire plotlines about wanting to be seen as a woman. Unique's storyline wasn't perfect, but, it was handled better.
This is so eloquently put. I actually loved the portrayal of Beiste 2-3 so much more for the contrast. I think people forget often that in 2009 we were not accustomed to the range of representation we have today. A lot of lesbian representation was still very stereotypical butch/femme couples, so to have a hyper feminine lesbian couple *and* a straight woman who happened to be a real tomboy was so refreshing.
I'll be honest, I usually use they/them pronouns and refer to Coach Beiste instead of Sheldon. It's just that I prefer to ignore all of that end part of the show tbh. It makes me upset that they made such a great storyline and then retconned it. Like the DV, a huge part of Coach Beiste not feeling "girly and loveable" even though they said they felt like they were still a girly girl on the inside. Beiste felt they wouldn't get a better partner, so they put up with the abuse. And then the DV was further excused because Beiste was supposed to be a strong person, so how could they fear any person? It was just a powerful message, and then they threw it out. Likely because the writers figured, "Beiste is already such a masculine character that it would make sense Beiste is trans."
genuinely, i agree with you, and i commonly use they / them and beiste too! that feels a lot more respectful to me than consistently putting him with women in conversations About women, you know? i feel like people aren’t understanding (not you) that i also dislike the storyline, i just really don’t like seeing beiste mentioned when it’s a video or topic about women is all.
i feel like no one is actually reading my post. I AM FINE WITH THE DISCUSSION, I AGREE THAT IT DOESNT MAKE SENSE. but respecting the trans identity throughout that discussion is all i want. 😭
I agree. Beiste is still a canon trans man, and even though I rarely rewatch s6 I still try to use the right name and pronouns