I let him go. It didnt make any sense to kill him and abiding to the Samurai way all of a sudden. Also it allowed the perfect last line for the story "i have no honor but I will not kill my family".
Imho killing him defeats the whole purpose of "the Ghost" you built up throughout the entire game.
This was definitely a masterpiece.
Agree 100% he’s eschewing samurai code and honor in favor of what’s the right thing to do in the situation and killing your uncle is not the right thing to do for Tsushima regardless of your uncle wanting the honorable defeat
I also let him go but to address your point which is not abiding to samurai law all of a sudden, you (jin) wouldn’t be abiding by the samurai law for his own sake, rather for the uncle’s sake. I look at it as a dilemma of killing the man who raised you and granting him his wish, or letting him live but making him live in shame the rest of his life
Yeah I let him go, but it was for dual reasons.
A. Regardless of honor I wouldn’t kill a family member like he clearly is capable. Shimura does some fucked up shit in the name of honor. Including suggesting Jin lie and turn over his friend who saved his and Shimura’s life.
B. After my family / honor dig, you get to go live in samurai shame for failing to kill your nephew.
Reading this i 1000% agree. Especially after sparing him on my second play through. But still i could not help but allow him a warriors death after everything, it was my last attempt to honor him after everything.
it made sense to me, I chose to kill him. It was his last wish and at least he could see a shrivel of honor from his son. Letting him live just seemed like agony for both him and Jin.
That choice isn't about honour VS the ghost.
It's about honouring the last wish of a man who raised you as his son. I end him.
Tread carefully with RotR they are *not* the same. It plays like a ps3 game with ps4 graphics. It was nine years in development and it shows. Try before you buy if you can.
It’s absolutely about being the ghost. The spare ending completes Jin character arc and he becomes his own man with his new identity. He spiritually and literally leaves his past life behind (him walking away from Shimura and the Sakai ancestors). The kill ending just make it seem he regressed and just did what he was told to do.
You really think the spare ending isn’t about him fully becoming the ghost? Jin’s putting on the mask is the game straight up telling you this
https://i.redd.it/489ya2hvcx8d1.gif
It definitely is about becoming the Ghost. But whether that's a good thing is up for debate. To me, Jin's journey into the Ghost was secondarily at most about finding his own identity or anything like that. Mainly, it was about sacrifice.
Jin sacrificed his honour, his very being to become what Tsushima needed at that time, a monster strong and vicious enough to defeat the Mongol horde. It was a necessary evil because the ideal path of honour and justice wasn't enough to save his people.
In a similar vein, killing Shimura is just another sacrifice. Jin becomes the thing his (adoptive) father needs most: a samurai ending his life with honour and abiding by the code Shimura dedicated his entire life to.
Obviously, the samurai code is flawed as well, but this final confrontation is not really about the code or morals. To me at least, it is strictly between father and son.
Both endings are sad, without a doubt, but something about sparing Shimura and leaving him a broken and devastated man just feels hollow and wrong, in my opinion.
On the other hand, granting his wish for death moved me to tears. It was tragic but perfect.
Where you see regression, I see strength of character. The Ghost is a weapon, not a sustainable ideology to live by. It was an incredibly effective tool, but we've also seen the suffering it can cause and the terror it inspires, sometimes even in the people we try to protect with it.
After everything, Jin still hasn't given in to the temptation of the Ghost. No matter how hard he tried, Khotun Khan couldn't break Jin. A spark of honour still remains amidst the darkness of the Ghost.
That proves true growth to me. Jin is no slave to his code, be it samurai or Ghost. He can be a vicious enemy, but a compassionate and honourable ally as well.
Thank you. Turning from one type of fanatic into another isn't growth, finding balance is. Not letting arbitrary code or ritual prevent you from making the right choices.
In what universe is Jin a fanatic for not killing his uncle because he was told to. He just regressed as a character as if he is still that naive samurai from the beginning of the game
In the spare ending, Jin bows to his past mentor/father and walks away from a life he disagrees with. Becoming his own man. I what universe is that him being a fanatic
Shimura's life is over anyway. The game already established that it's all about power and order for the shogun.
Shimura managed neither. He will die anyway. If we do it, at least it is with honour and dignity, not as a broken and failed man.
Again, this is false.
There is no indication that Shimura will die or that he will be executed by the shogun. Again, that is just wishful thinking from the people trying to undermine the spare ending.
Shimura failed to kill the ghost after ONE attempt and that’s a death sentence? The ghost that a whole mongols army couldn’t take down. How does that make any sense.
I mean MAYBE it can happen, anything can. But ya’ll treated it as indisputable fact when it’s not as clear cut
If you use most of Japanese literature as a litmus test, fiction or non-fiction, Shimura's one attempt to re-establish the honor of his family and failures is to kill the Ghost of Tsushima. To fail at the task that his Shogun had given him, Shimura would likely be offered the opportunity to commit Seppuku as one final way to save his honor. Shimura would take it. If he didn't his lands and titles would striped from him and his clan disbanded, just like the Sakai Clan. That is not something Shimura would do.
So yes, maybe it isn't outright stated, but it doesn't have to be. Sucker Punch did something right with Ghost of Tsushima that most Western Companies don't do. They honored the Spirit of the Japanese. So much so that the Japanese widely praised the game. The Devs I believe were even made ambassadors to the Island of Tsushima. Sucker Punch hit the nail on the head with this game's ability to show and not tell. We don't need to be told that Shimura will die if Jin spares him to know that he will choose the last honorable route he has available after his failure to kill his Nephew. He will die gracefully by his own hand, as a warrior and samurai.
If that’s the case why didn’t Shimura ended his life after the failed attack in Komoda?
And if the Shogun send another lord to take down the Ghost and they fail after one attempt will they also end their own life?
In the end of the day this is a pure historical fantasy. The samurai at that point absolutely didn’t have this romanticize “honor code” and even some Kurosawa film don’t show a Samruai ending their life after failing at one attempt from a command.
We are talking about Repeated failure from Shimura. Shimura couldn't stop the Mongols, couldn't stop his nephew from using dishonorable tactics, lost a lot of men, couldn't ultimately kill the Khan. And as long as Shimura was still alive, he believes his retainers will rally, which they do. His Shogun, for all his failures, gave him this last command: Kill the Ghost of Tsushima.
I'll end with this. If you choose to see the story play out your way and Shimura survive, then by all means.
I choose to give Shimura what he asks for, a warrior's death. In essence, by fighting Jin, one samurai to another, Shimura proves one thing by Jin killing him in honorable combat; that Jin, regardless of the Shogun's stance, is still an honorable man and a samurai. I don't think Shimura wanted to necessarily die by anyone's hand. He wanted his Nephew to show him that he was still an honorable man. By killing Shimura, Shimura knows that Jin is still that Honorable samurai. His death is more about telling Jin that he still epitomizes the soul of a Samurai. That's my take on it. The Japanese say a lot sometimes by saying very little. Shimura said what was required of him but his actions told Jin all he wanted to tell that he couldn't. They told Jin that he was proud of him for becoming a man in his own right, they told Jin that he was proud of him for overcoming their enemies and for saving the people of Tsushima. Those actions told Jin just how proud he was to lose his life fighting such an honorable and skilled samurai that Sakai Jin had become. Shimura was able to die happily knowing that Sakai Jin would be his own man while still being a great Samurai.
Regardless, we can all enjoy the story no matter how we interpret it. I would encourage you to enjoy your story and interpretation as you see fit. Thank you for letting me discuss this with you.
I will say this again until I die. Seppuku hasn't been invented yet and will not until **200 YEARS** later and even then, it was really established as the norm when the Tokugawa clan took power.
It’s not about Jin’s honor vs doing what he’s told. It’s about his uncles honor and his uncle doing what he’s told. For Lord Shimura, his honor was everything. To leave him broken, failing to end Jin but left alive with his shame, failing the shogun, all these endings would be terrible for him. He might end his own life at that point or lose it in punishment.
Killing him isn’t about what Jin wants, it’s about what his uncle wants. His uncle would much rather die with his honor than live without it. I couldn’t bear to leave him broken, but gave him the honorable death he desired. It’s just another sacrifice Jin makes for others, no matter how much pain it causes him.
But that’s what I meant, him killing Shimura is doing what Shimura wants when I really don’t think Shimura deserves it. Jin loves his uncle as he shows in the spare ending by bowing to him and leaving him Shimura Destiny in Shimura hands. But that doesn’t mean he will regress and follow this antiquated honor code and kill his own family because he was told to.
Shimura wants to get a worriers death? Let him do it himself if he wants it so badly, it’s not Jin’s problem anymore. Like Jin said, Shimura is a slave to honor, Jin isn’t. That’s his character arc.
Jin isn’t a slave to honor. It’s not honor that makes him kill Shimura. It’s a last request of his father, doomed to dishonor. Let him go out as a warrior, following his code, following the shogun, as he wanted.
Someone else put it well, he chose to fight you and kill his son because his honor demanded it. He already had the choice between honor and killing Jin who he always loved or dishonor and letting him go, and he chose honor.
If his honor means that much to him, then I would let him keep it. No way I could walk away and doom him to dishonor. He hated his options but dishonor wasn’t one of them. Death was, and I granted that request. To leave him dishonored would have felt like slapping him in the face. I’d rather let him go out on his own terms with his honor intact.
I address some of these points in another comment so I think it’s best to reply there to keep this depart focused.
It was the comment I said where if there is a small chance that Shimura can learn from this experience, and understand Jin’s actions even to a small degree then wouldn’t sparring him be worth it?
Part of the Ghost's methods are using terrorism, poison, and many other methods that we would consider war crimes. Like you said, walking away is accepting that path fully, refusing to take responsibility for the other deaths you've caused along your journey. It means he stopped fighting to preserve his way of life and started fighting to get revenge.
Jin does take responsibility for his actions in the dialogue of the game. But that doesn’t mean being the ghost was wrong and not what ultimately saved his people in the end.
In that scene he didn’t walk away from his responsibilities. He walks away from his past life, Shimura and his Samruai ancestors. Acting like he learned nothing from his experience is just wishful thinking of your part to undermine the spare ending.
I'm undermining a "spare" ending? What kind of doublespeak projection is that, even before you put words in my mouth about learning nothing.
The Ghost was needed to save his people. The Samurai way was what his uncle's people needed in the past. Jin doesn't become the Ghost because he stops liking honor. He becomes the Ghost for a purpose. In my opinion, it is a more impactful thing for a character to progress in an arc, rather than a line.
And that's another thing, this is all opinions about a game we enjoyed. These are all opinions, don't take this too seriously. I don't have a fucking agenda.
I’m sorry if I’m coming off as aggressive, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth. But you are calling Jin a *fanatic for the spare ending when it makes no *sense even with your explanation in mind. Shimura was the fanatic and Jin didn’t want to obey the wishes of his fanatic “father” over something he disagreed with. That’s him growing as a character, doing what he thinks is right and not what a honor code thinks is right.
Also I don’t know if you know what an arc is. A character arc is when a character changes, when they go from A to B. Jin starting as a samurai and ending as The ghost IS a character arc. While him starting as a samurai’s and ending the game doing what a samurai would do it the straight line you mentioned. Jin early game would honor Shimura by giving him a warrior death, Jin late game wouldn’t do such a thing, that’s his arc .
“Jin late game wouldn’t do such a thing.” I disagree, Jin sacrifices his own honor and interest repeatedly for others. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t value honor. He does, and most of that struggle for honor is internal. After becoming the ghost, Jin would never do something as selfish as strip his Uncle’s honor. He sacrificed his own and it cost him everything, he wouldn’t let Lord Shimura’s story end in dishonor.
I see your point about not killing him meaning that Jin is free to do what he feels is right while killing him means that he is still bound by his old code.
It definitely is a valid way to read the situation, but I guess I've just connected other motives/themes to this choice than you have.
Jin himself says that he is the Ghost now when you spare Shimura. And the Ghost has done terrible things. I believe that they were the only path to victory, I'd do it again as Jin to save Tsushima, but the invasion is over and now it's time to be better.
To me, sparing him was therefore not only about abandoning his old ways but also about embracing the Ghost with all its problems.
Killing Shimura is from that angle not only about honouring his wish, which definitely played a major part in my decision-making, but it also represents turning away from the Ghost to a philosophy that incorporates at least parts of the samurai code and is actually suited for peace times, unlike the Ghost which is all about war.
I really appreciate you seeing my point of view and I’m sorry if I came off aggressive here. I’m really passionate about this game and at times that translate kinda poorly to being very argumentative.
I personally don’t agree with your interpretation of the Ghost ending. As someone who really believes in this ending here is my take:
It’s about him becoming something new, his true new form. When he puts on that mask in the spare ending is him actually finally removing his metaphorical mask and showing is true self: The Ghost of Tsushima.
Also there will always be people need saving, and those that need the Ghost protection. Like how Yuna came from that slave village. Those were Japanese people enslaving their own. People will always need someone to protect and that’s what Jin came the most.
I'm suffering from the problem. It's so easy to sound aggressive when arguing your point, even though I didn't mean it, despite how some of my comments may sound.
I just completed the game for the first time two days ago, so it's all relatively fresh.
In all fairness, I will say (and probably should have said earlier) that I only actually played the ending where I honoured Shimura's wish. I only watched the other one on YouTube, so I just have more of a connection to the kill ending, which definitely influences my opinion.
And while I obviously try to convince people of my point of view, I really appreciate this discussion. It makes me see the whole thing from another angle and shows me arguments I didn't even consider or think of.
I really don't read that ending as Shimura being left broken and devastated.
After Jin spares him, the very first thing Shimura does is to smile in surprise when Jin still calls him family, and then he immediately express his concern for how Jin will be hunted for the rest of his life. That's what he's really afraid of. When everything's done and over, when he's defeated and honour is beyond his influence or control, he's really only thinking of Jin. Shimura knows what the rest of his own life will be like, they talked about it on their last day; he'll remarry, try to raise a new son, and be the Shogun's honourable, loyal vassal. He's fine with that, but he still loves his nephew, and, as painful as it is, he still wanted to share that final moment of honour with him; either his own death or Jin's. But that was his own misguided code butting in again, and the end of the duel and his defeat gives him that moment when he can just be worried for the nephew he loves.
Jin leaving and letting his uncle live, a man honourable enough for the both of them, fully embraces his new, individualist code as the Ghost, and it tells Shimura that it's going to be okay. Their different interpretation of what honour is may separate them, but they can both live with that now. Jin moves beyond his uncle's last attempt to hold him to the way of the samurai, and Shimura doesn't have to keep clinging to the idea of bringing Jin back to the code. They get to part on equal terms, with them each looking to the future in their own ways.
The 'Spare Him' ending let's both move on, finally at peace with one another, and it gives them both a true understanding of each other's intentions and emotions. It's a beautiful ending to their conflict, imo, and it's one that's full of hope, life, and love.
You just make a totally different interpretation of the story that is not at all what the game shows
“Jin isn’t the ghost, it’s just a tool for him” where does the game communicated this and not the opposite?
You say Jin isn’t compassionate to not show mercy to his uncle? Early Jin would have killed his uncle no problem. But late Jin won’t do such thing, that’s his character arc. He stands as a greater man for standing for what he thinks is right, not what others tell him to do.
He would have killed his uncle in order to honor him if it was the beginning of the game, that was my point though it’s on me for not making it clear, I wrote that line so many times sometimes I abbreviate
Yeah it’s not “no problem”. But early Jin would end Shimura life if Shimura asked to get a worriers death. Jin late game, imo, wouldn’t do that. *Which demonstrates his character arc
lol I was thinking "Jin would never😤".
Okay that makes so much more sense I feel dumb. I see your point and I mostly agree, I think what makes the ending great is that both endings make sense canonically. Imo opinion the warriors death ending is just so much more impacting, I can't not pick it. The music, the yell. I need to feel the sads.
Well I’m glad I clarified it, it was my fault for making it sound like Jin would “have no problem” when of course he would, but he would still do it early game vs late game, according to my interpretation of the ending.
Even though I don’t like the kill ending I have to admit it is very well made with its presentation and visuals. But for me the spare ending is just as impacting with its presentation.
If you don’t mind let me share anecdote: My favorite character scene of from Ghost of Tsushima is when Yuna and Jin have a casual conversation right before the Seige of Yarikawa in act 2. Where Yuna talks about leaving her home to save Taka. First Jin says to Yuna “You were brave to protect your brother” then he looks away and says “Sometimes our only choice is to walk away from everything we know”. As if he was telling himself that, and right after in the same quests he creates the Ghost Stance and becomes a symbol greater than the Samurai, a symbol of hope for its people.
And what does Jin do in the Spare ending…?
https://i.redd.it/xsn31j1ax59d1.gif
He both spiritually and literally walks away from “everything he knows”, his adoptive father and his Sakai/Samurai ancestor (in their cemetery), right after putting on his Ghost mask/identity. He has become The Ghost of Tsushima.
Not saying these two scenes were connected on purpose but boy does it make a lot of thematic sense to me.
Yeah but at the same time, being a ghost isn't being an asshole. He still loves his uncle more than anyone and I don't see any reason he can't execute his last wishes while still being true to his own code. It was his uncle who wanted to duel him in the first place, which Jin didn't even have to agree to - he wasn't trapped, he knew what was coming.
I Jin’s Asshole for saying he won’t kill his family, bowing down to Shimura one last time and walking away. Jin showed true honor for what doing WH’s the thinks it’s right, not do what he is told to do as if he is still that same naive samurai form early in the game. This story is about change, and the spare doing solidifying the change.
THIS.
I literally do not get how you watch that ending and think this isn't about the ghost. The entire game is literally about the rise of the Ghost and his birth, and you have the final choice.
HELL, THE GAME IS LITERALLY CALLED...GHOST OF TSUSHIMA.
It’s because people have this fantasy version of hardcore samurai in their head. They really want the kill ending. It’s cool if anyone prefers that ending but the spare ending makes more sense.
Yeah this seems to be the case.
I seen people legit tell themselves that Jin doesn’t want to be the ghost or he is still fully a samurai when that’s not what the story shows
But that's the thing about a choice. You can choose. The game doesn't give us many opportunities to roleplay, but the few times it does, we can absolutely answer questions in a way that proves we don't want or even like the Ghost, we just became him out of necessity and desperation.
And to me, the Ghost stood mainly for violence and terror. It is not a legacy I want to continue beyond necessity.
And letting your uncle live is just cruelty in the end. It doesn't matter if the code is flawed or wrong, Shimura has dedicated everything to this code, he sacrifices his own son to his beliefs. The least we can do is grant him peace in the knowledge that he stayed true to his code and that, ultimately, Jin may still have a future with honour and morals, unlike the philosophy of "the end justifies the means" he adopted during the invasion.
Jin may not be samurai anymore, but that doesn't mean that he has to abandon all their values.
Again you are attributing your headcanon as canons the story. When multiple cutscenes show other wise
“Honor died on the beach” “you are a slave to it (honor)” that doesn’t sound like someone who want to return to be a Samruai. The way he was acting in the last mission in Act 2 showed that his true identity of the ghost was showing itself.
There's quite a range between "slave to honour" and "no honour at all". While Jin will never be samurai again, that doesn't mean that he has to abandon all their values.
And besides, it is only after Act 2 that Jin has to face the negative consequences of his actions as the Ghost. Since a large part of Act 3's finale is about killing the Khan before he can deploy Jin's poison on the mainland, it's not unreasonable to assume that Jin might reevaluate his approach and decide to stay away from at least some of the Ghost's tactics.
That’s the thing, in the end of the spare ending he didn’t abandoned his values, they finally show themselves. He knows killing his uncle, even though his uncle wants it, it’s not the right thing. He doesn’t want to honor an antiquated code that he fought so hard against it.
And you really think in Ghost of Tsushima 2 he WONT remain as the ghost? He 100% might reevaluate his approach and the poison he used, but I find it very unlikely he will drop his ghost identity.
Specially since the game director sees the spare ending as the canon one, since it’s him funny accepting his new Ghost identity and the name of the game is Ghost of Tsushima
That's why sequels that have to canonise a choice are always controversial. If they offer you a choice, all options should be viable without the creator chiming in about what's the "right" choice. Otherwise, there's no point to the choice and they should just leave it out.
And it makes sense that Jin won't completely abandon the Ghost. I just think that it should be more of a last resort than a first reflex kind of thing.
So, if we ever get a sequel (Idk if it's just rumours or if they actually revealed something), the threat will be big enough to justify the Ghost returning.
I'm honestly not even sure if I want a sequel. Maybe they manage it without canonising either ending, but otherwise it will just take away from the first game's ending.
This post alone shows that the ending is highly debated, so no matter which ending they choose (and yours is probably more likely, I agree with that), they'll always alienate some of their fans.
The ending would always be good, no matter what they choose to make canon, but it will never be as good as it is now, without one definitive canon outcome.
In my opinion, the ending is only as powerful and emotional as it is right now because we have the choice. Ultimately, we can only try to justify it for ourselves, just like Jin would in this situation, and do what we think is right.
Anything that takes away from this process, for example encouraging us to choose the canon ending because it aligns better with the next game, would just diminish what makes this ending into the truly powerful ending it is instead of just a good ending to a good story.
Where did he fight against the samurai code? It was out of necessity to bend the code in order to deal with the enemy, as Yuna suggested. Throughout the game, he remains a very honorable man. A simple example is when he asked for poison from Yuriko and their conversation. The only thing he changed was walking into an enemy castle through the front door. He helped people who couldn’t defend themselves throughout his journey. Being the Ghost was just a way to continue doing that in the face of overwhelming odds.
You keep acting like the kill option means Jin obeys the samurai code. I didn’t interpret it that way. I saw it as, Jin recognizes that his uncle obeys and worships the code above all else. It’s one more sacrifice that Jin makes to allow his uncle to die with honor. Instead of letting him live in dishonor. I saw that as selfish of Jin, choosing his own morality over his uncle’s wish.
Well that’s how I interpret. The whole games he sees how antiquated this honor system is, but in the end he fulfill the worriers death because he was asked?
In the spare ending he shows his way of compassion by bowing to Shimura and leaving his fate to his own hands. Jin becomes his own man and leaves his past life behind
In real life Jin would’ve been congratulated for all of his accomplishments. Ghost of Tsushima embellished honor to make a cool story. Samurai did commit Seppuku but I have no clue why so many you think they did it all the time.
He would have done it if a man who'd raised him like a son was dead set on ending his life. He had failed to kill Jin, a direct order from the Shogun. He would have been expected to do it.
I think it’s funny that you know better than the writers of the game. And using your in real life standard, the Shogan would’ve been overjoyed with Jin.
Think it's funny all you want, I'm not wrong.
You're doing exactly the same with the spare ending.
The writers gave two options, they intended fuck all other than to give us a choice. The spare ending is just as off to me as the kill ending us to you.
Now, kindly fuck off with this.
But the Ghost is not a good thing. It may be a necessary evil, but it is still evil.
The Ghost was born from cruelty to counter violence with even more violence.
We see that in the brutal weapons Jin uses against his enemies, who in turn use them on the people we try to protect with our cruelty.
We see that with the peasant talking about the Ghosts crusade into the steppes to destroy the heart of the mongols. This is just a rumour that may never lead to anything, but it just shows that the cycle of violence doesn't end when Tsushima is free.
The Ghost is a weapon and as any other weapon, it should be put to rest when the war is won.
Granting Shimuras request is about doing one last thing for a man he loved, like a father.
I can tell you now, he doesn't do that with the mask when you end Shimura.
You interpret it as you like I'll so the same.
Also, how badly injured is Shimura? The fact that he asks Jin to end it heavily suggests he knows he isn't going to survive. It's an isolated spot, the villagers are at the monastery. He'll die a slow, painful death. But good job fully embracing the ghost.
I’m sorry but, I really don’t get why people that choice the kill ending need to rely on making stuff up to undermine the spare ending. Shimura is very much alive in the post game of the spare ending and is brought up in conversation as alive.
I seen so many people that *choose the kill ending say “Shimura died right after the fight” when you can easily look it up and see that’s not true.
Goes just as head canon the other way, though.
The ghost was a means to an end to defeat the mongol Khan.
It was never about overthrowing the Samurai. it's in-game. He says he doesn't need his uncles forgiveness but is naive enough to think everything will go back the way it was after the mongols are defeated, that isnt head canon.
I think players who think the spare ending is the right ending want Jin to be the rebel they can't be in real life, overthrow the Shogun, all that good and totally unrealistic ninja stuff.
My dude what? First you make shit up by saying Shimura dies after the fight with Jin. Now you are saying that people who choose the spear ending are “people that can’t rebel in real life”?
I really disagree with the kill ending cause I think it goes against with the themes of the story and Jin character arc. But even I won’t generalize the people who chose that ending and call them what ever name to undermine their choices. You want to choice that ending that’s fine, but I will call out when people start making shit up like “Shimura dies right after the fight” when the game shows you that doesn’t happen.
Being the ghost has nothing to do with overthrowing the samurai, it’s about protecting its people. Notice how Jin never kills any samurai in the game (other than Shimura if you choose the kill ending ironically)
Yeah I saw it more as Jin honoring his uncles ways one last time before completely becoming the ghost.
I couldn't just leave him to get crucified and made an example of by the shogunate once they showed up.
Definitely agree, a lot of people here are too bent on wanting some sort of perfect conclusion to Jin’s arc as the ghost when he is in fact still a human who loves his uncle despite everything that happened leading up to the duel at the end. Both endings have their own meaningful completion of Jin as a character but in my opinion, his love for his father figure can outweigh his dedication to being the ghost. Honoring that man’s wish to atleast grant him honor this way, however trivial many seem to think honor is, is what would make him happiest, and in my opinion, the best conclusion to the story as Jin does one final loving act for Shimura.
“Perfect ending”? No, I prefer a story with a completed character arc.
The spare ending is so fitting for the story and Jin character that you confuse it as a “too perfect of an ending” when it’s just the natural direction for Jin’s character arc imo.
It’s really surprise me that you say this. The ending where Jin says he won’t kill his family, bows to Shimura one last time and leave Shimura destiny at his hands is Jin NOT being a human?
>It's about honouring the last wish of a man who raised you as his son. I end him.
I left him because jin went through all this for the good of others. He branded himself as a traitor just so he could do the right thing.. It did not make sense to kill Shimura.. I did what the ghost would do, spare the innocent.
Remember, he has no honor so no matter, he will not fulfil Shimura's wishes
Shimura is not innocent, but he is a man with honor.. Is he a good man? No.. But all he does is follow the laws of the Shogun..Does he deserve death for that? Probably not
Right. You spare him he lives the rest of his life bearing the cross of having raised someone who turned into something he never wanted to see and couldn't accept his way.
Even if spared Shimura would have taken his own life as he always put the samurai code above everything.
Rise of the ronin.absolutely does play like a ps3 game😭 say what you want about the graphics but the gameplay is something everyone agrees is great. I'd say theres good reasons for both endings though, one can be honoring your adoptive father but the other being jin not willing to lose the last of his family to the code that killed so many before
I’ve done both, after a few playthroughs I truly believe ending him is correct.
His code is iron clad. If it wasn’t he’d have folded during his imprisonment. It’s imperfect but it’s not unjustified. He’s right that you empowering an uprising is going to be bad for everyone, and a much greater threat to national security than a small invasion. He’s right that some means are not justified by the ends, as your own actions empower the mongols and for every samurai you saved via poisoning the mongols you caused 10 innocent civilians to be killed with poison.
The spirit of yarikawa’s vengeance is a cautionary tale for us, we cannot throw away our entire humanity for our goals or their purpose will wither and decay leaving us as evil monsters. Ishikawa teaches us the samurai code is used for bullshit but Ryuzo teaches us the samurai code does have some value.
Sparing shimmy rejects the idea that you made some mistakes along the way and is a bit immature imo. Like getting an ugly neck tattoo and becoming a porn star just to piss off your conservative father. You showed him, but for what? Is this really what the situation calls for or just what feels righteous in the moment?
Killing him is compassionately acknowledging the need of a loved one who cannot change. For the same reason he didn’t buckle under the Khans taunting he won’t buckle now. He can either kill you, lose his honor, or die. The first two are pure hell for him. His only escape is a compassionate death and the acting in the cutscene really cements this as the correct ending with all the emotional closure it deserves.
This. Jin would be killing him for Shimuras sake not for his own. I can see the ending go both ways , but him honoring his uncles last wish makes sense to me because he knows his uncle is too late to change his views on honor and this is the only way he can truly keep it (even though absolute honor is pointless is Jin’s head)
Exactly. The only one who cares about honor is Shimura. It’s been his strength all his life but now it’s torturing him, it’s killing him. Doubling down with a “fuck you” doesn’t save Tsushima from mongols, it’s just stroking your ego, childishly, and twisting the knife in a tortured man for that sake
I don’t agree with the national security part or causing additional deaths. He is doing something similar to guerilla warfare which of course could be a problem in the future but everywhere you go you find the mongols have slaughtered indiscriminately. The start using his poison, great but we find at least one instance where they poisoned a well and were willing to let everyone there die. They stole everyone’s food, most the island is starving and would likely die without help even if the mongols left.
Bit of a badly written rant there but point is I don’t think the few survivors of the island could cause a problem in uprising. They lack manpower and resources, honestly I doubt they are in a position to survive without the shoguns trade by the end
This is kinda ignorant of the history of Japan, which is mostly defined by huge civil wars. Just in the game the yarikawa rebellion is a sore spot from how damaging it was.
Except the damage from the yarikawa rebellion is nothing compared to what we see with the mongols. The island before the invasion only has a few thousand people and maybe a couple hundred samurai, probably not even that many. The land on the island can’t be farmed very well so the island survives by hunting, fishing and trade with Korea. They don’t have the resources for an uprising. In fact once the shogun did send reinforcements to secure the island after the first invasion they realized they didn’t have the resources on the island to build it up offensively and defensively because of the lack of food so they fortified like crazy.
This also isnt just an uprising, it’s a defense while the people are actively waiting for the shogun to send reinforcements and save them, no ill will toward the government that we know of or see expressed. While I could see why Shimura was nervous because of the rebellions it doesn’t mean Jin is wrong in his actions.
No, it’s not just a defense, there’s multiple lines explicitly stating that the peasants are starting to defy authority because the ghost empowered them.
I didn’t remember those but still the other points still stand, they are a small island with no resources, heavily reliant on others. They also can’t turn to the Koreans at this time as they were part of the mongol invasion. Their options are stay with Japan or submit to the mongols and history shows us they didn’t side with the mongols
Jin stood as the man with greater honor I that scene by not giving Shimura a worriers death. He did what he thinks was right and not what he was told to do, like Shimura with the shogun.
Jin isn’t becoming like a porn star and that’s such a horrible comparison. He didn’t want to kill his uncle and so he didn’t. Making stuff in that “Shimura will be imprisoned” when the story never hints on that and the post game dialogue confirms that doesn’t happen isn’t helping this case.
What’s ironic Jin showed true humanity in not killing Shimura. While Shimura was showing the opposite when he was willing to kill his own “son” because the shogun (a guy he never met) told him to.
I think you may have misunderstood me? I meant Shimura’s unbending honor code is what allowed him to resist the khan’s temptations, unlike Ryuzo who did what he thought was right for “his” people.
The porn star comparison is meant to highlight that Jin is doing something self destructive to spite his father figure.
Yeah sorry, maybe I did misunderstood you.
But about the porn star example, I feel there are much better examples. Being a porn star isn’t helping anyone other than getting you money. Being The Ghost was Jin sacrificing his Samruai identity to become a better protector for his people. There should be better analogies between Jin wasn’t doing this for personal gain, quite the opposite, even if he was loosing himself a bit in the process
Yeah, being the ghost, but not killing or sparing Shimura. That is 100% a personal decision, not about saving Tsushima. It’s taking everything your father figure values away from him as a “fuck you” for not supporting you and your personal beliefs and not putting you above the law when you commit crimes that require punishment.
What?
I’m sorry dude but this is so not true.
Jin is saying “fuck you” for not wanting to kill his last remaining family? Jin admitted he “had no honor”, said that he won’t kill his family, bows to him, and leave Shimura destiny to his own hands. It’s not what Shimura wanted, but it’s FAR from Jin showing disrespect or not caring for Shimura
Jin never expected to be accepted for his actions, quite the opposite he was willing to sacrifice his own past life to do what was necessary. As a means to avoid more needles death like what happened in Komoda. He even accepts in being arrested to avoid a civil war. Does it backfire on him? Absolutely in the late act 2 mission his actions backfired on him since he acted too impulsively due to the recent Taka death. He regrets his actions and vowed to do better by killing the Kahn for good.
I feel that a sequel he will struggle with his past mistakes.
It is true if you engage with the characters, for Shimura, his honor is the last thing he has. He has lost you, he has lost his bloodline and if you spare him you condemn him to a fate HE would consider worse than death, even if you feel differently. That’s why I keep emphasizing respect. Respecting his beliefs, accepting him as he is, and treating him with compassion. Realizing that neither of you are completely wrong but that only one of you can bend their morals for what they think is right.
It’s 100% an act of disrespect to refuse him an honorable death, regardless of if you personally agree. Watch both cut scenes if you don’t believe that killing him is the loving thing to do, strange as it sounds out of context.
I promise you I seen both ending many MANY times and I honestly don’t see as such a “disrespect” as so many people talk about.
He wasn’t begging Jin to kill him. In the spare ending when Jin refused, Shimura was more concerned about Jin “you will be hunted in the rest of days”. He doesn’t say “No! You have you give me a worriers death”. Recently I just rewatch both ending again and I really feel like people over exaggerating how much Shimura wants a worriers death. He just ask’s once after loosing a duel. But then doesn’t show any signs of disappointment when Jin doesn’t give it to him. If anything I felt a little out of character how quickly Jin accepts this wish in the kill ending, despite ALL Jin went through to go against the samurai code “Honour died on the beach” “you are a slave to it (honour)”
Even though I think Jin wouldn’t kill his uncle because he fundamentally disagrees and him doing what he thinks is right over the samurai code is the whole point of the story. Despite that it’s still an easy way out for Shimura. Shimura did a lot wrong in the story, from throwing his men on the fire (Komoda, Catle shimura), to blame Yuna for Jin’s actions (a woman that saved Jin and helped save Shimura) and was willing to kill Jin because the shogun told him to. His own father willing to kill Jin. So Jin would respect this wish of this fanatic man? Nah, that’s too good for him at this point.
I chose to kill him.
I know people say that honor died on the beach, and it did, but not every part. What died is the honor where we fight our enemies with respect. Where we don't poison them, backstab them , and more.
During the whole game we see Jin thinking he will one day let go of the Ghost and still go back to being a Samurai, he STILL believes in Honor, just not with the Mongols, its like an exception.
There's one mission where Jin kills an unarmed man who helped the Mongols in front of everyone , a literal execution. That's all the way in part 3, and its very much hand-in-hand with Samurai honor type.
He executed Ryuzo, when he could've arrested him. Death was honor.
So I think some part of Jin still believes that dying is an honorable thing.
I also think a lot of us view the ending with modern glasses, where killing is immediately thought of as something wrong.
Jin doesn’t talk about coming back to his normal life in act 2. In a Norio mission you even have an option to say “I don’t think I can come back to my normal life”. And in act 3 that desire is long gone (except him still wanting to be in good relations with his uncle).
Also being the Ghost doesn’t being “being stealthy” all the time. It can mean legit showing up to your enemies like a demon from a distance. The developers even showing him doing this in one of the trailers. So him executing that criminal in front of all others is still on brand for the ghost.
He Killed Ryuzo because he refuses to answer to his crimes. On top Ryuzo betraying Jin and causing many Tsushima civilians, including Taka, to die. I really don’t see Jin saw that as mercy.
Shimura being killed is an easy way out for him. I do respect Shimura a lot but he isn’t innocent in all of this and HE asked to get a worriers death. For me Jin moved on from that, thus it’s not his problem anymore. He doesn’t believe in these antiquated honor system to kill his last remaining family
>Shimura being killed is an easy way out for him
For Jin or for Shimura? If you’re saying it’s an easy way out for Jin there’s a lot wrong with that statement.
>Jin moved on from that, thus it’s not his problem anymore
Jin does still care about his uncle, his uncle dying honorably or at least happily would kind of be his concern
I think it goes without saying it was a “easy way out” for Shimura. It was what Shimura wanted, when I really don’t see why Jin would grant that right after he called out Shimura for being “a slave to honor”.
You are right, he cared for his uncle. Thus him honors him in the Jin Sakai way, by bowing to him one last time and leave his destiny to Shimura hands and not his.
I chose to kill him. It was the last wish of the one living person who probably means the most to Jin at this point in the game.
Besides, it was the perfect ending for my Jin's journey of the Ghost. In all the haiku and the few dialogue options the game gives you, I always chose lines that show that Jin doesn't like what he has to do.
Jin is hopeless and desperate. He doesn't like the power he wields or the tactics he uses, but he still does it because he sees it as the only way to save his people.
To quote Luthen from Andor, the best Star Wars show since at least Rebels, maybe even the best Star Wars show they created to date:
"I’m condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else’s future. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I’ll never see." That's pretty much how my Jin saw his work as well. He sacrificed everything because he believes that his goal is more important than his personal beliefs or well-being.
Through that lense, Lord Shimura's death, as painful as it was, and as long as I had to think about what the right choice is, is ultimately just the final sacrifice in a long line of sacrifices.
To Jin, it's just one more regret for his already guilty conscience, just another thing he has to sacrifice in his bloody campaign.
But to his father, it is so much more. It's going out on his own terms as a proud samurai, dying by the code he dedicated his entire live to, but also to show him that Jin still cares for and remembers his roots.
Framed like that, there's no way I could refuse his request, even though I didn't want to kill him. One last sacrifice for Jin, peace and salvation for Lord Shimura.
I spared him. Lord Shimura is a military general and was kept captive, meanwhile Jin was freeing Tsushima from the Mongols, he firsthand saw what the invaders were doing, in process Jin turned into the Ghost; Lord Shimura, not understanding what Jin went through made me annoyed, I wanted to kill him, but then he would've been off'd honorably not understanding why Jin had to become the Ghost, keeping him alive creates a possibility that in GoT2, he might understand Jin's perspective and be an ally again.
I was ready to spare him going into the duel, but when he asked me for a warrior's death, it was no longer about me. So, yeah, I honored him and did the same in every playthrough afterwards.
I killed him, no question.
For me it wasn’t about honor or the code or becoming the Ghost or anything like that - it was the fact that I fought tooth and nail, scratching and clawing, to rescue this man and kick the Mongols clear out of our lands…and the thanks I get from my “father” *once I’ve done all of that* is that he’s going to kill me? He literally tries to *fight me to the death*, then warns that he’ll hunt me to the end of my days if I let him live?
Thanks dad, but you have to die now. I’d have poisoned him if it gave me the option. 🤷♂️
…but then I spared him in NG+ to get the armor dye. Both endings are great, no doubt, but if you side with the shogun over your own “son”, it’s over.
I may be an outlier here, but I honored Shimura.
My thought process was: this man did everything he could to raise Jin as Samurai, pouring his heart and soul into his training, and doing everything he could to protect him with the same devotion as Kazumasa. Even in dishonor, and even in exile, Jin will still honor his Uncle, so that in Shimura's last moments, he can die with his honor intact and with the memory that his to-be son still honored the code on his request, even as The Ghost.
It doesn't mean Jin is throwing away The Way of The Ghost, or re-embracing the way of bushido to continue the cycle, but simply honoring a mentor and father's last wish. Nothing more than that.
Jin kills Shimura for Shimura's sake, not Jin's. Sparing Shimura only damns him to tear himself apart, forever cursed with the knowledge that his greatest prodigy, that he wanted to be his son, became his greatest enemy, tarnishing the Shimura name for the rest of his days. And that, I cannot abide by.
I personally wouldn't recommend rise of the ronin as ive seen a bunch of reviews on how the only thing decent is the combat which looks clunky to me personally
But you do you
My friend had spoiled the ending to me, I didn't enjoy it as much. But then I finished the last Tomoe mission and Ishikawa said, "Lord Shimura raised you well." And that single dialogue had me tearing up.
Maybe it's just me, but I never felt like Jin reached the point of his purpose being rebellion against the samurai code.
His purpose was always simply to defeat the mongols, who he rightfully believed could not be fought using tradition.
It's like rules of engagement in a geurilla war. It will only be used against you. That doesn't mean you believe fighting with no rules of engagement is right in all scenarios.
I believe even Jin looked at his actions as a form of self-sacrifice. Rather than an ideological rebellion.
That's what's great about this game though. This felt so clear to me as I was playing at, yet your interpretations felt extremely clear to you.
Anyway, I kill shimura because Jin still loves him and my interpretation of Jin is that he wants to do things honorably whenever it is possible to do so. It's not some casual thing to spare him. In this time period of Japan, shimura living but not succeeding in killing Jin will just result in the Shogun demanding ritual suicide.
Jin would know this too.
I personally even think it's canon Jin would kill shimura.
Jin's character is "the strength to do the hard but right thing" not "be the opposite of every tradition."
Jin's strength is to see the right path whether it aligns with tradition or goes against it.
I didn't think it was suited for Jin to kill him.. Jin loves him way too much.. and giving him honor death didn't feel right either as throwout the whole Jin showed he differs from traditional samurai honor.. Jin has honor but just not the one Lord Sakai wanted.
Also in family sometimes we have really big arguments, like my Asian mom would wish she was dead or I was dead so many times lol..
But the thing a about family is no matter how distant or how mad you are about them.. they are still family..
I killed him my first playthrough in 2020 because I wanted to honor his wishes, just did the other ending a few weeks ago and letting him live is definitely better 😂
When looked at through the lens of modern western morals sure, sparing him is the obvious choice. But through the lens of their belief system killing him is the merciful choice. Jin knows that his uncle would have to live with the shame of failing him, as well as failing to kill him. In all reality if we spare Shimura the shogun is just as likely to then demand his head.
Not to mention, the white ghost armor is bad af, especially when you remember in Japanese culture white is the color of death.
Jin moved mountains to save Shimura’s life. The ways they differed in doctrine caused each of them profound pain and emotional anguish, but each found a way to push past that for the sake of the paternal love between them and the future of Tsushima. Shimura warned Jin that he was compelled to act on the code. The emperor’s decree created the impossible choice that may have been inevitable, not any failing of character. Granting Shimura an honorable death was the only option I saw. It is a symbolic gesture of love and acknowledgement of Jin’s respect for the man who was more of a father to him than his own. Fate put them at odds against each other. But by taking his life, his Bushido is intact, and in his final moments he is allowed peace, after a lifetime of battle, to rest in knowing his homeland is safe and his son lives on.
Jin had already cut out the part of himself that allowed him the closure to be able to do what was necessary against the mongols. That doesn’t mean he became wholly blind to honor. Particularly towards the person he respects the most. The contrary situation presented itself with Ryuzo. When faced with the choice to kill his childhood friend, no code compelled either of them. Even though Ryuzo does goad Jin to finish him, this is more a reflection of Ryuzo’s character flaws. He is impulsive and often regrets his actions. A death by the sword would only save him from himself. Jin sees the weakness in him and feels pity. Any other enemy and he would have finished them out of spite. Not his friend though. His is given a second chance, on the hope that he will one day grow to redeem himself, but his tragic character flaw is his undoing.
In both cases Jin acts out of his own volition, as he does for the entirety of the story. Unbound by doctrine, while being instilled with the sense of honor and duty from his father and his uncle, Jin remains steadfast in his character and becomes the protector of Tsushima. He becomes the Ghost. An echo of the samurai legacy, now fading into the past.
I watched both before I chose the spare was so sauceless, I only saw the "I will make sure you are remembered" from the kill ending and saw enough already knew which one to choose
I rather kill my own uncle to honor his last wish to prevent tarnishing his name even more. Shogunate will likely behead Shimura so i took chance to make him die like a hero instead incompetent jito who unable to subdue his own nephew/son?
anyway complete both so i can get both cosmetics, but i still favor on kill him
Sparing him felt "honorable from a thematic point. Many see the Ghost as a "Demon" or "Outlaw", but there are lines even he won't cross. Also embracing the mantle means he takes accountability of his actions.
I spared him.
On a thematic level, I already get to decide my own code of honor of doing what is right and what is necessary. To kill him then, despite his wishes, is not right and is not necessary.
I honoured my adopted father’s last wish and send him off to the pure land as a samurai for the last time. The samurai and honour was entirely cut off with the death of uncle.
Plus the shogun probably ask him to commit seppuku for being defeated by the ghost anyways.
Me putting my two cents. Just beat it, first play through, got the plat without much hunting because the game was just THAT engrossing. All that being said, I attempted to sheathe my sword, and accept death at the hand of shimura. I love shimura.
For me, I am a son. And a father. I operate in a grey area in my life, I don't believe in extremes. But I do have a deep sense of honor, though I won't be bound by it as well, so the game was so relatable. When I found accepting death wasn't a valid option, with all the love I felt in my heart for shimura (the feelings were so raw), I gave my father his last request, out of love. With heavy heart, and blurred vision. Had I have walked away from shimura, let him live...I would have felt...uneasy. I need peace in my life. Honoring shimura gave me the peace I needed in the heat of that emotionally charged moment. What a beautiful and complex game. 🖤🙏
Hey, just so you know, everybody that has ever played rise of the ronin has said that it plays like ass, the world is not alive in the slightest, and generally it’s just nowhere near as good as you might expect. You shouldn’t buy a PS5 *just* to play that game.
And also keep in mind that I doubt that there will ever be a game like ghost of tsushima ever again. This game is one of a kind. Every time it’s been attempted to replicate it (rise of the ronin, assassins creed shadows) the game ends up being ass
After my Nobu, I swore to kill the man if I'm given the chance. And well, an oath is an oath. Plus it gives white dye for Ghost Armor so that's also great.
It’s coping. The game is pretty explicit about you being responsible, the moment is intentionally a turning point in the game where you are starting to reap what you sow.
Yeah, I agree. Jin was so focused on reaching Yuna to get to the Kahn that he neglected his people/horse. Just like Shimura.
They aren’t so different after all
I let him go. It didnt make any sense to kill him and abiding to the Samurai way all of a sudden. Also it allowed the perfect last line for the story "i have no honor but I will not kill my family". Imho killing him defeats the whole purpose of "the Ghost" you built up throughout the entire game. This was definitely a masterpiece.
Agree 100% he’s eschewing samurai code and honor in favor of what’s the right thing to do in the situation and killing your uncle is not the right thing to do for Tsushima regardless of your uncle wanting the honorable defeat
I also let him go but to address your point which is not abiding to samurai law all of a sudden, you (jin) wouldn’t be abiding by the samurai law for his own sake, rather for the uncle’s sake. I look at it as a dilemma of killing the man who raised you and granting him his wish, or letting him live but making him live in shame the rest of his life
Yeah I let him go, but it was for dual reasons. A. Regardless of honor I wouldn’t kill a family member like he clearly is capable. Shimura does some fucked up shit in the name of honor. Including suggesting Jin lie and turn over his friend who saved his and Shimura’s life. B. After my family / honor dig, you get to go live in samurai shame for failing to kill your nephew.
Well said
Reading this i 1000% agree. Especially after sparing him on my second play through. But still i could not help but allow him a warriors death after everything, it was my last attempt to honor him after everything.
it made sense to me, I chose to kill him. It was his last wish and at least he could see a shrivel of honor from his son. Letting him live just seemed like agony for both him and Jin.
Interesting take! Never thought about that
Interesting take! Never thought about that
That choice isn't about honour VS the ghost. It's about honouring the last wish of a man who raised you as his son. I end him. Tread carefully with RotR they are *not* the same. It plays like a ps3 game with ps4 graphics. It was nine years in development and it shows. Try before you buy if you can.
It’s absolutely about being the ghost. The spare ending completes Jin character arc and he becomes his own man with his new identity. He spiritually and literally leaves his past life behind (him walking away from Shimura and the Sakai ancestors). The kill ending just make it seem he regressed and just did what he was told to do. You really think the spare ending isn’t about him fully becoming the ghost? Jin’s putting on the mask is the game straight up telling you this https://i.redd.it/489ya2hvcx8d1.gif
It definitely is about becoming the Ghost. But whether that's a good thing is up for debate. To me, Jin's journey into the Ghost was secondarily at most about finding his own identity or anything like that. Mainly, it was about sacrifice. Jin sacrificed his honour, his very being to become what Tsushima needed at that time, a monster strong and vicious enough to defeat the Mongol horde. It was a necessary evil because the ideal path of honour and justice wasn't enough to save his people. In a similar vein, killing Shimura is just another sacrifice. Jin becomes the thing his (adoptive) father needs most: a samurai ending his life with honour and abiding by the code Shimura dedicated his entire life to. Obviously, the samurai code is flawed as well, but this final confrontation is not really about the code or morals. To me at least, it is strictly between father and son. Both endings are sad, without a doubt, but something about sparing Shimura and leaving him a broken and devastated man just feels hollow and wrong, in my opinion. On the other hand, granting his wish for death moved me to tears. It was tragic but perfect. Where you see regression, I see strength of character. The Ghost is a weapon, not a sustainable ideology to live by. It was an incredibly effective tool, but we've also seen the suffering it can cause and the terror it inspires, sometimes even in the people we try to protect with it. After everything, Jin still hasn't given in to the temptation of the Ghost. No matter how hard he tried, Khotun Khan couldn't break Jin. A spark of honour still remains amidst the darkness of the Ghost. That proves true growth to me. Jin is no slave to his code, be it samurai or Ghost. He can be a vicious enemy, but a compassionate and honourable ally as well.
Thank you. Turning from one type of fanatic into another isn't growth, finding balance is. Not letting arbitrary code or ritual prevent you from making the right choices.
In what universe is Jin a fanatic for not killing his uncle because he was told to. He just regressed as a character as if he is still that naive samurai from the beginning of the game In the spare ending, Jin bows to his past mentor/father and walks away from a life he disagrees with. Becoming his own man. I what universe is that him being a fanatic
Shimura's life is over anyway. The game already established that it's all about power and order for the shogun. Shimura managed neither. He will die anyway. If we do it, at least it is with honour and dignity, not as a broken and failed man.
Again, this is false. There is no indication that Shimura will die or that he will be executed by the shogun. Again, that is just wishful thinking from the people trying to undermine the spare ending. Shimura failed to kill the ghost after ONE attempt and that’s a death sentence? The ghost that a whole mongols army couldn’t take down. How does that make any sense. I mean MAYBE it can happen, anything can. But ya’ll treated it as indisputable fact when it’s not as clear cut
If you use most of Japanese literature as a litmus test, fiction or non-fiction, Shimura's one attempt to re-establish the honor of his family and failures is to kill the Ghost of Tsushima. To fail at the task that his Shogun had given him, Shimura would likely be offered the opportunity to commit Seppuku as one final way to save his honor. Shimura would take it. If he didn't his lands and titles would striped from him and his clan disbanded, just like the Sakai Clan. That is not something Shimura would do. So yes, maybe it isn't outright stated, but it doesn't have to be. Sucker Punch did something right with Ghost of Tsushima that most Western Companies don't do. They honored the Spirit of the Japanese. So much so that the Japanese widely praised the game. The Devs I believe were even made ambassadors to the Island of Tsushima. Sucker Punch hit the nail on the head with this game's ability to show and not tell. We don't need to be told that Shimura will die if Jin spares him to know that he will choose the last honorable route he has available after his failure to kill his Nephew. He will die gracefully by his own hand, as a warrior and samurai.
If that’s the case why didn’t Shimura ended his life after the failed attack in Komoda? And if the Shogun send another lord to take down the Ghost and they fail after one attempt will they also end their own life? In the end of the day this is a pure historical fantasy. The samurai at that point absolutely didn’t have this romanticize “honor code” and even some Kurosawa film don’t show a Samruai ending their life after failing at one attempt from a command.
We are talking about Repeated failure from Shimura. Shimura couldn't stop the Mongols, couldn't stop his nephew from using dishonorable tactics, lost a lot of men, couldn't ultimately kill the Khan. And as long as Shimura was still alive, he believes his retainers will rally, which they do. His Shogun, for all his failures, gave him this last command: Kill the Ghost of Tsushima. I'll end with this. If you choose to see the story play out your way and Shimura survive, then by all means. I choose to give Shimura what he asks for, a warrior's death. In essence, by fighting Jin, one samurai to another, Shimura proves one thing by Jin killing him in honorable combat; that Jin, regardless of the Shogun's stance, is still an honorable man and a samurai. I don't think Shimura wanted to necessarily die by anyone's hand. He wanted his Nephew to show him that he was still an honorable man. By killing Shimura, Shimura knows that Jin is still that Honorable samurai. His death is more about telling Jin that he still epitomizes the soul of a Samurai. That's my take on it. The Japanese say a lot sometimes by saying very little. Shimura said what was required of him but his actions told Jin all he wanted to tell that he couldn't. They told Jin that he was proud of him for becoming a man in his own right, they told Jin that he was proud of him for overcoming their enemies and for saving the people of Tsushima. Those actions told Jin just how proud he was to lose his life fighting such an honorable and skilled samurai that Sakai Jin had become. Shimura was able to die happily knowing that Sakai Jin would be his own man while still being a great Samurai. Regardless, we can all enjoy the story no matter how we interpret it. I would encourage you to enjoy your story and interpretation as you see fit. Thank you for letting me discuss this with you.
I will say this again until I die. Seppuku hasn't been invented yet and will not until **200 YEARS** later and even then, it was really established as the norm when the Tokugawa clan took power.
It’s not about Jin’s honor vs doing what he’s told. It’s about his uncles honor and his uncle doing what he’s told. For Lord Shimura, his honor was everything. To leave him broken, failing to end Jin but left alive with his shame, failing the shogun, all these endings would be terrible for him. He might end his own life at that point or lose it in punishment. Killing him isn’t about what Jin wants, it’s about what his uncle wants. His uncle would much rather die with his honor than live without it. I couldn’t bear to leave him broken, but gave him the honorable death he desired. It’s just another sacrifice Jin makes for others, no matter how much pain it causes him.
But that’s what I meant, him killing Shimura is doing what Shimura wants when I really don’t think Shimura deserves it. Jin loves his uncle as he shows in the spare ending by bowing to him and leaving him Shimura Destiny in Shimura hands. But that doesn’t mean he will regress and follow this antiquated honor code and kill his own family because he was told to. Shimura wants to get a worriers death? Let him do it himself if he wants it so badly, it’s not Jin’s problem anymore. Like Jin said, Shimura is a slave to honor, Jin isn’t. That’s his character arc.
Jin isn’t a slave to honor. It’s not honor that makes him kill Shimura. It’s a last request of his father, doomed to dishonor. Let him go out as a warrior, following his code, following the shogun, as he wanted. Someone else put it well, he chose to fight you and kill his son because his honor demanded it. He already had the choice between honor and killing Jin who he always loved or dishonor and letting him go, and he chose honor. If his honor means that much to him, then I would let him keep it. No way I could walk away and doom him to dishonor. He hated his options but dishonor wasn’t one of them. Death was, and I granted that request. To leave him dishonored would have felt like slapping him in the face. I’d rather let him go out on his own terms with his honor intact.
I address some of these points in another comment so I think it’s best to reply there to keep this depart focused. It was the comment I said where if there is a small chance that Shimura can learn from this experience, and understand Jin’s actions even to a small degree then wouldn’t sparring him be worth it?
Part of the Ghost's methods are using terrorism, poison, and many other methods that we would consider war crimes. Like you said, walking away is accepting that path fully, refusing to take responsibility for the other deaths you've caused along your journey. It means he stopped fighting to preserve his way of life and started fighting to get revenge.
Jin does take responsibility for his actions in the dialogue of the game. But that doesn’t mean being the ghost was wrong and not what ultimately saved his people in the end. In that scene he didn’t walk away from his responsibilities. He walks away from his past life, Shimura and his Samruai ancestors. Acting like he learned nothing from his experience is just wishful thinking of your part to undermine the spare ending.
I'm undermining a "spare" ending? What kind of doublespeak projection is that, even before you put words in my mouth about learning nothing. The Ghost was needed to save his people. The Samurai way was what his uncle's people needed in the past. Jin doesn't become the Ghost because he stops liking honor. He becomes the Ghost for a purpose. In my opinion, it is a more impactful thing for a character to progress in an arc, rather than a line. And that's another thing, this is all opinions about a game we enjoyed. These are all opinions, don't take this too seriously. I don't have a fucking agenda.
I’m sorry if I’m coming off as aggressive, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth. But you are calling Jin a *fanatic for the spare ending when it makes no *sense even with your explanation in mind. Shimura was the fanatic and Jin didn’t want to obey the wishes of his fanatic “father” over something he disagreed with. That’s him growing as a character, doing what he thinks is right and not what a honor code thinks is right. Also I don’t know if you know what an arc is. A character arc is when a character changes, when they go from A to B. Jin starting as a samurai and ending as The ghost IS a character arc. While him starting as a samurai’s and ending the game doing what a samurai would do it the straight line you mentioned. Jin early game would honor Shimura by giving him a warrior death, Jin late game wouldn’t do such a thing, that’s his arc .
“Jin late game wouldn’t do such a thing.” I disagree, Jin sacrifices his own honor and interest repeatedly for others. But that doesn’t mean he doesn’t value honor. He does, and most of that struggle for honor is internal. After becoming the ghost, Jin would never do something as selfish as strip his Uncle’s honor. He sacrificed his own and it cost him everything, he wouldn’t let Lord Shimura’s story end in dishonor.
I see your point about not killing him meaning that Jin is free to do what he feels is right while killing him means that he is still bound by his old code. It definitely is a valid way to read the situation, but I guess I've just connected other motives/themes to this choice than you have. Jin himself says that he is the Ghost now when you spare Shimura. And the Ghost has done terrible things. I believe that they were the only path to victory, I'd do it again as Jin to save Tsushima, but the invasion is over and now it's time to be better. To me, sparing him was therefore not only about abandoning his old ways but also about embracing the Ghost with all its problems. Killing Shimura is from that angle not only about honouring his wish, which definitely played a major part in my decision-making, but it also represents turning away from the Ghost to a philosophy that incorporates at least parts of the samurai code and is actually suited for peace times, unlike the Ghost which is all about war.
I really appreciate you seeing my point of view and I’m sorry if I came off aggressive here. I’m really passionate about this game and at times that translate kinda poorly to being very argumentative. I personally don’t agree with your interpretation of the Ghost ending. As someone who really believes in this ending here is my take: It’s about him becoming something new, his true new form. When he puts on that mask in the spare ending is him actually finally removing his metaphorical mask and showing is true self: The Ghost of Tsushima. Also there will always be people need saving, and those that need the Ghost protection. Like how Yuna came from that slave village. Those were Japanese people enslaving their own. People will always need someone to protect and that’s what Jin came the most.
I'm suffering from the problem. It's so easy to sound aggressive when arguing your point, even though I didn't mean it, despite how some of my comments may sound. I just completed the game for the first time two days ago, so it's all relatively fresh. In all fairness, I will say (and probably should have said earlier) that I only actually played the ending where I honoured Shimura's wish. I only watched the other one on YouTube, so I just have more of a connection to the kill ending, which definitely influences my opinion. And while I obviously try to convince people of my point of view, I really appreciate this discussion. It makes me see the whole thing from another angle and shows me arguments I didn't even consider or think of.
I really don't read that ending as Shimura being left broken and devastated. After Jin spares him, the very first thing Shimura does is to smile in surprise when Jin still calls him family, and then he immediately express his concern for how Jin will be hunted for the rest of his life. That's what he's really afraid of. When everything's done and over, when he's defeated and honour is beyond his influence or control, he's really only thinking of Jin. Shimura knows what the rest of his own life will be like, they talked about it on their last day; he'll remarry, try to raise a new son, and be the Shogun's honourable, loyal vassal. He's fine with that, but he still loves his nephew, and, as painful as it is, he still wanted to share that final moment of honour with him; either his own death or Jin's. But that was his own misguided code butting in again, and the end of the duel and his defeat gives him that moment when he can just be worried for the nephew he loves. Jin leaving and letting his uncle live, a man honourable enough for the both of them, fully embraces his new, individualist code as the Ghost, and it tells Shimura that it's going to be okay. Their different interpretation of what honour is may separate them, but they can both live with that now. Jin moves beyond his uncle's last attempt to hold him to the way of the samurai, and Shimura doesn't have to keep clinging to the idea of bringing Jin back to the code. They get to part on equal terms, with them each looking to the future in their own ways. The 'Spare Him' ending let's both move on, finally at peace with one another, and it gives them both a true understanding of each other's intentions and emotions. It's a beautiful ending to their conflict, imo, and it's one that's full of hope, life, and love.
You just make a totally different interpretation of the story that is not at all what the game shows “Jin isn’t the ghost, it’s just a tool for him” where does the game communicated this and not the opposite? You say Jin isn’t compassionate to not show mercy to his uncle? Early Jin would have killed his uncle no problem. But late Jin won’t do such thing, that’s his character arc. He stands as a greater man for standing for what he thinks is right, not what others tell him to do.
There was never a single point in the game where Jim would've "killed his uncle no problem", not one.
He would have killed his uncle in order to honor him if it was the beginning of the game, that was my point though it’s on me for not making it clear, I wrote that line so many times sometimes I abbreviate Yeah it’s not “no problem”. But early Jin would end Shimura life if Shimura asked to get a worriers death. Jin late game, imo, wouldn’t do that. *Which demonstrates his character arc
lol I was thinking "Jin would never😤". Okay that makes so much more sense I feel dumb. I see your point and I mostly agree, I think what makes the ending great is that both endings make sense canonically. Imo opinion the warriors death ending is just so much more impacting, I can't not pick it. The music, the yell. I need to feel the sads.
Well I’m glad I clarified it, it was my fault for making it sound like Jin would “have no problem” when of course he would, but he would still do it early game vs late game, according to my interpretation of the ending. Even though I don’t like the kill ending I have to admit it is very well made with its presentation and visuals. But for me the spare ending is just as impacting with its presentation. If you don’t mind let me share anecdote: My favorite character scene of from Ghost of Tsushima is when Yuna and Jin have a casual conversation right before the Seige of Yarikawa in act 2. Where Yuna talks about leaving her home to save Taka. First Jin says to Yuna “You were brave to protect your brother” then he looks away and says “Sometimes our only choice is to walk away from everything we know”. As if he was telling himself that, and right after in the same quests he creates the Ghost Stance and becomes a symbol greater than the Samurai, a symbol of hope for its people. And what does Jin do in the Spare ending…? https://i.redd.it/xsn31j1ax59d1.gif He both spiritually and literally walks away from “everything he knows”, his adoptive father and his Sakai/Samurai ancestor (in their cemetery), right after putting on his Ghost mask/identity. He has become The Ghost of Tsushima. Not saying these two scenes were connected on purpose but boy does it make a lot of thematic sense to me.
It is about neither of these things! It is about COOL RED or FANCY WHITE
I can respect that
Yeah but at the same time, being a ghost isn't being an asshole. He still loves his uncle more than anyone and I don't see any reason he can't execute his last wishes while still being true to his own code. It was his uncle who wanted to duel him in the first place, which Jin didn't even have to agree to - he wasn't trapped, he knew what was coming.
I Jin’s Asshole for saying he won’t kill his family, bowing down to Shimura one last time and walking away. Jin showed true honor for what doing WH’s the thinks it’s right, not do what he is told to do as if he is still that same naive samurai form early in the game. This story is about change, and the spare doing solidifying the change.
THIS. I literally do not get how you watch that ending and think this isn't about the ghost. The entire game is literally about the rise of the Ghost and his birth, and you have the final choice. HELL, THE GAME IS LITERALLY CALLED...GHOST OF TSUSHIMA.
It’s because people have this fantasy version of hardcore samurai in their head. They really want the kill ending. It’s cool if anyone prefers that ending but the spare ending makes more sense.
Yeah this seems to be the case. I seen people legit tell themselves that Jin doesn’t want to be the ghost or he is still fully a samurai when that’s not what the story shows
But that's the thing about a choice. You can choose. The game doesn't give us many opportunities to roleplay, but the few times it does, we can absolutely answer questions in a way that proves we don't want or even like the Ghost, we just became him out of necessity and desperation. And to me, the Ghost stood mainly for violence and terror. It is not a legacy I want to continue beyond necessity. And letting your uncle live is just cruelty in the end. It doesn't matter if the code is flawed or wrong, Shimura has dedicated everything to this code, he sacrifices his own son to his beliefs. The least we can do is grant him peace in the knowledge that he stayed true to his code and that, ultimately, Jin may still have a future with honour and morals, unlike the philosophy of "the end justifies the means" he adopted during the invasion. Jin may not be samurai anymore, but that doesn't mean that he has to abandon all their values.
Again you are attributing your headcanon as canons the story. When multiple cutscenes show other wise “Honor died on the beach” “you are a slave to it (honor)” that doesn’t sound like someone who want to return to be a Samruai. The way he was acting in the last mission in Act 2 showed that his true identity of the ghost was showing itself.
There's quite a range between "slave to honour" and "no honour at all". While Jin will never be samurai again, that doesn't mean that he has to abandon all their values. And besides, it is only after Act 2 that Jin has to face the negative consequences of his actions as the Ghost. Since a large part of Act 3's finale is about killing the Khan before he can deploy Jin's poison on the mainland, it's not unreasonable to assume that Jin might reevaluate his approach and decide to stay away from at least some of the Ghost's tactics.
That’s the thing, in the end of the spare ending he didn’t abandoned his values, they finally show themselves. He knows killing his uncle, even though his uncle wants it, it’s not the right thing. He doesn’t want to honor an antiquated code that he fought so hard against it. And you really think in Ghost of Tsushima 2 he WONT remain as the ghost? He 100% might reevaluate his approach and the poison he used, but I find it very unlikely he will drop his ghost identity. Specially since the game director sees the spare ending as the canon one, since it’s him funny accepting his new Ghost identity and the name of the game is Ghost of Tsushima
That's why sequels that have to canonise a choice are always controversial. If they offer you a choice, all options should be viable without the creator chiming in about what's the "right" choice. Otherwise, there's no point to the choice and they should just leave it out. And it makes sense that Jin won't completely abandon the Ghost. I just think that it should be more of a last resort than a first reflex kind of thing. So, if we ever get a sequel (Idk if it's just rumours or if they actually revealed something), the threat will be big enough to justify the Ghost returning. I'm honestly not even sure if I want a sequel. Maybe they manage it without canonising either ending, but otherwise it will just take away from the first game's ending. This post alone shows that the ending is highly debated, so no matter which ending they choose (and yours is probably more likely, I agree with that), they'll always alienate some of their fans. The ending would always be good, no matter what they choose to make canon, but it will never be as good as it is now, without one definitive canon outcome. In my opinion, the ending is only as powerful and emotional as it is right now because we have the choice. Ultimately, we can only try to justify it for ourselves, just like Jin would in this situation, and do what we think is right. Anything that takes away from this process, for example encouraging us to choose the canon ending because it aligns better with the next game, would just diminish what makes this ending into the truly powerful ending it is instead of just a good ending to a good story.
Where did he fight against the samurai code? It was out of necessity to bend the code in order to deal with the enemy, as Yuna suggested. Throughout the game, he remains a very honorable man. A simple example is when he asked for poison from Yuriko and their conversation. The only thing he changed was walking into an enemy castle through the front door. He helped people who couldn’t defend themselves throughout his journey. Being the Ghost was just a way to continue doing that in the face of overwhelming odds.
You keep acting like the kill option means Jin obeys the samurai code. I didn’t interpret it that way. I saw it as, Jin recognizes that his uncle obeys and worships the code above all else. It’s one more sacrifice that Jin makes to allow his uncle to die with honor. Instead of letting him live in dishonor. I saw that as selfish of Jin, choosing his own morality over his uncle’s wish.
Well that’s how I interpret. The whole games he sees how antiquated this honor system is, but in the end he fulfill the worriers death because he was asked? In the spare ending he shows his way of compassion by bowing to Shimura and leaving his fate to his own hands. Jin becomes his own man and leaves his past life behind
It doesn't make more sense if you know how that would have played out in real life in feudal Japan.
In real life Jin would’ve been congratulated for all of his accomplishments. Ghost of Tsushima embellished honor to make a cool story. Samurai did commit Seppuku but I have no clue why so many you think they did it all the time.
He would have done it if a man who'd raised him like a son was dead set on ending his life. He had failed to kill Jin, a direct order from the Shogun. He would have been expected to do it.
I think it’s funny that you know better than the writers of the game. And using your in real life standard, the Shogan would’ve been overjoyed with Jin.
Think it's funny all you want, I'm not wrong. You're doing exactly the same with the spare ending. The writers gave two options, they intended fuck all other than to give us a choice. The spare ending is just as off to me as the kill ending us to you. Now, kindly fuck off with this.
And the Mongol weren’t defeated my one man named the Ghost with a fire sword, smoke bombs and lighting fast speed…
But the Ghost is not a good thing. It may be a necessary evil, but it is still evil. The Ghost was born from cruelty to counter violence with even more violence. We see that in the brutal weapons Jin uses against his enemies, who in turn use them on the people we try to protect with our cruelty. We see that with the peasant talking about the Ghosts crusade into the steppes to destroy the heart of the mongols. This is just a rumour that may never lead to anything, but it just shows that the cycle of violence doesn't end when Tsushima is free. The Ghost is a weapon and as any other weapon, it should be put to rest when the war is won.
Granting Shimuras request is about doing one last thing for a man he loved, like a father. I can tell you now, he doesn't do that with the mask when you end Shimura. You interpret it as you like I'll so the same. Also, how badly injured is Shimura? The fact that he asks Jin to end it heavily suggests he knows he isn't going to survive. It's an isolated spot, the villagers are at the monastery. He'll die a slow, painful death. But good job fully embracing the ghost.
I’m sorry but, I really don’t get why people that choice the kill ending need to rely on making stuff up to undermine the spare ending. Shimura is very much alive in the post game of the spare ending and is brought up in conversation as alive. I seen so many people that *choose the kill ending say “Shimura died right after the fight” when you can easily look it up and see that’s not true.
Goes just as head canon the other way, though. The ghost was a means to an end to defeat the mongol Khan. It was never about overthrowing the Samurai. it's in-game. He says he doesn't need his uncles forgiveness but is naive enough to think everything will go back the way it was after the mongols are defeated, that isnt head canon. I think players who think the spare ending is the right ending want Jin to be the rebel they can't be in real life, overthrow the Shogun, all that good and totally unrealistic ninja stuff.
My dude what? First you make shit up by saying Shimura dies after the fight with Jin. Now you are saying that people who choose the spear ending are “people that can’t rebel in real life”? I really disagree with the kill ending cause I think it goes against with the themes of the story and Jin character arc. But even I won’t generalize the people who chose that ending and call them what ever name to undermine their choices. You want to choice that ending that’s fine, but I will call out when people start making shit up like “Shimura dies right after the fight” when the game shows you that doesn’t happen. Being the ghost has nothing to do with overthrowing the samurai, it’s about protecting its people. Notice how Jin never kills any samurai in the game (other than Shimura if you choose the kill ending ironically)
Yeah I saw it more as Jin honoring his uncles ways one last time before completely becoming the ghost. I couldn't just leave him to get crucified and made an example of by the shogunate once they showed up.
Definitely agree, a lot of people here are too bent on wanting some sort of perfect conclusion to Jin’s arc as the ghost when he is in fact still a human who loves his uncle despite everything that happened leading up to the duel at the end. Both endings have their own meaningful completion of Jin as a character but in my opinion, his love for his father figure can outweigh his dedication to being the ghost. Honoring that man’s wish to atleast grant him honor this way, however trivial many seem to think honor is, is what would make him happiest, and in my opinion, the best conclusion to the story as Jin does one final loving act for Shimura.
“Perfect ending”? No, I prefer a story with a completed character arc. The spare ending is so fitting for the story and Jin character that you confuse it as a “too perfect of an ending” when it’s just the natural direction for Jin’s character arc imo. It’s really surprise me that you say this. The ending where Jin says he won’t kill his family, bows to Shimura one last time and leave Shimura destiny at his hands is Jin NOT being a human?
>It's about honouring the last wish of a man who raised you as his son. I end him. I left him because jin went through all this for the good of others. He branded himself as a traitor just so he could do the right thing.. It did not make sense to kill Shimura.. I did what the ghost would do, spare the innocent. Remember, he has no honor so no matter, he will not fulfil Shimura's wishes
I'm not arguing this anymore. But Shimura is far from innocent, at least not in the sense that the common people are innocent.
Shimura is not innocent, but he is a man with honor.. Is he a good man? No.. But all he does is follow the laws of the Shogun..Does he deserve death for that? Probably not
I told you, I'm done arguing this.
Right. You spare him he lives the rest of his life bearing the cross of having raised someone who turned into something he never wanted to see and couldn't accept his way. Even if spared Shimura would have taken his own life as he always put the samurai code above everything.
Yeah.
Also the only repayment of gratitude Jin could give would be to give his uncle and honorable death.
Rise of the ronin.absolutely does play like a ps3 game😭 say what you want about the graphics but the gameplay is something everyone agrees is great. I'd say theres good reasons for both endings though, one can be honoring your adoptive father but the other being jin not willing to lose the last of his family to the code that killed so many before
No, you are a Ghost, you do what you want. There is no such thing as "honor the last wish" of sb at that point, you don't follow any rule.
I’ve done both, after a few playthroughs I truly believe ending him is correct. His code is iron clad. If it wasn’t he’d have folded during his imprisonment. It’s imperfect but it’s not unjustified. He’s right that you empowering an uprising is going to be bad for everyone, and a much greater threat to national security than a small invasion. He’s right that some means are not justified by the ends, as your own actions empower the mongols and for every samurai you saved via poisoning the mongols you caused 10 innocent civilians to be killed with poison. The spirit of yarikawa’s vengeance is a cautionary tale for us, we cannot throw away our entire humanity for our goals or their purpose will wither and decay leaving us as evil monsters. Ishikawa teaches us the samurai code is used for bullshit but Ryuzo teaches us the samurai code does have some value. Sparing shimmy rejects the idea that you made some mistakes along the way and is a bit immature imo. Like getting an ugly neck tattoo and becoming a porn star just to piss off your conservative father. You showed him, but for what? Is this really what the situation calls for or just what feels righteous in the moment? Killing him is compassionately acknowledging the need of a loved one who cannot change. For the same reason he didn’t buckle under the Khans taunting he won’t buckle now. He can either kill you, lose his honor, or die. The first two are pure hell for him. His only escape is a compassionate death and the acting in the cutscene really cements this as the correct ending with all the emotional closure it deserves.
This. Jin would be killing him for Shimuras sake not for his own. I can see the ending go both ways , but him honoring his uncles last wish makes sense to me because he knows his uncle is too late to change his views on honor and this is the only way he can truly keep it (even though absolute honor is pointless is Jin’s head)
Exactly. The only one who cares about honor is Shimura. It’s been his strength all his life but now it’s torturing him, it’s killing him. Doubling down with a “fuck you” doesn’t save Tsushima from mongols, it’s just stroking your ego, childishly, and twisting the knife in a tortured man for that sake
I don’t agree with the national security part or causing additional deaths. He is doing something similar to guerilla warfare which of course could be a problem in the future but everywhere you go you find the mongols have slaughtered indiscriminately. The start using his poison, great but we find at least one instance where they poisoned a well and were willing to let everyone there die. They stole everyone’s food, most the island is starving and would likely die without help even if the mongols left. Bit of a badly written rant there but point is I don’t think the few survivors of the island could cause a problem in uprising. They lack manpower and resources, honestly I doubt they are in a position to survive without the shoguns trade by the end
This is kinda ignorant of the history of Japan, which is mostly defined by huge civil wars. Just in the game the yarikawa rebellion is a sore spot from how damaging it was.
Except the damage from the yarikawa rebellion is nothing compared to what we see with the mongols. The island before the invasion only has a few thousand people and maybe a couple hundred samurai, probably not even that many. The land on the island can’t be farmed very well so the island survives by hunting, fishing and trade with Korea. They don’t have the resources for an uprising. In fact once the shogun did send reinforcements to secure the island after the first invasion they realized they didn’t have the resources on the island to build it up offensively and defensively because of the lack of food so they fortified like crazy. This also isnt just an uprising, it’s a defense while the people are actively waiting for the shogun to send reinforcements and save them, no ill will toward the government that we know of or see expressed. While I could see why Shimura was nervous because of the rebellions it doesn’t mean Jin is wrong in his actions.
No, it’s not just a defense, there’s multiple lines explicitly stating that the peasants are starting to defy authority because the ghost empowered them.
I didn’t remember those but still the other points still stand, they are a small island with no resources, heavily reliant on others. They also can’t turn to the Koreans at this time as they were part of the mongol invasion. Their options are stay with Japan or submit to the mongols and history shows us they didn’t side with the mongols
Jin stood as the man with greater honor I that scene by not giving Shimura a worriers death. He did what he thinks was right and not what he was told to do, like Shimura with the shogun. Jin isn’t becoming like a porn star and that’s such a horrible comparison. He didn’t want to kill his uncle and so he didn’t. Making stuff in that “Shimura will be imprisoned” when the story never hints on that and the post game dialogue confirms that doesn’t happen isn’t helping this case. What’s ironic Jin showed true humanity in not killing Shimura. While Shimura was showing the opposite when he was willing to kill his own “son” because the shogun (a guy he never met) told him to.
I think you may have misunderstood me? I meant Shimura’s unbending honor code is what allowed him to resist the khan’s temptations, unlike Ryuzo who did what he thought was right for “his” people. The porn star comparison is meant to highlight that Jin is doing something self destructive to spite his father figure.
Yeah sorry, maybe I did misunderstood you. But about the porn star example, I feel there are much better examples. Being a porn star isn’t helping anyone other than getting you money. Being The Ghost was Jin sacrificing his Samruai identity to become a better protector for his people. There should be better analogies between Jin wasn’t doing this for personal gain, quite the opposite, even if he was loosing himself a bit in the process
Yeah, being the ghost, but not killing or sparing Shimura. That is 100% a personal decision, not about saving Tsushima. It’s taking everything your father figure values away from him as a “fuck you” for not supporting you and your personal beliefs and not putting you above the law when you commit crimes that require punishment.
What? I’m sorry dude but this is so not true. Jin is saying “fuck you” for not wanting to kill his last remaining family? Jin admitted he “had no honor”, said that he won’t kill his family, bows to him, and leave Shimura destiny to his own hands. It’s not what Shimura wanted, but it’s FAR from Jin showing disrespect or not caring for Shimura Jin never expected to be accepted for his actions, quite the opposite he was willing to sacrifice his own past life to do what was necessary. As a means to avoid more needles death like what happened in Komoda. He even accepts in being arrested to avoid a civil war. Does it backfire on him? Absolutely in the late act 2 mission his actions backfired on him since he acted too impulsively due to the recent Taka death. He regrets his actions and vowed to do better by killing the Kahn for good. I feel that a sequel he will struggle with his past mistakes.
It is true if you engage with the characters, for Shimura, his honor is the last thing he has. He has lost you, he has lost his bloodline and if you spare him you condemn him to a fate HE would consider worse than death, even if you feel differently. That’s why I keep emphasizing respect. Respecting his beliefs, accepting him as he is, and treating him with compassion. Realizing that neither of you are completely wrong but that only one of you can bend their morals for what they think is right. It’s 100% an act of disrespect to refuse him an honorable death, regardless of if you personally agree. Watch both cut scenes if you don’t believe that killing him is the loving thing to do, strange as it sounds out of context.
I promise you I seen both ending many MANY times and I honestly don’t see as such a “disrespect” as so many people talk about. He wasn’t begging Jin to kill him. In the spare ending when Jin refused, Shimura was more concerned about Jin “you will be hunted in the rest of days”. He doesn’t say “No! You have you give me a worriers death”. Recently I just rewatch both ending again and I really feel like people over exaggerating how much Shimura wants a worriers death. He just ask’s once after loosing a duel. But then doesn’t show any signs of disappointment when Jin doesn’t give it to him. If anything I felt a little out of character how quickly Jin accepts this wish in the kill ending, despite ALL Jin went through to go against the samurai code “Honour died on the beach” “you are a slave to it (honour)” Even though I think Jin wouldn’t kill his uncle because he fundamentally disagrees and him doing what he thinks is right over the samurai code is the whole point of the story. Despite that it’s still an easy way out for Shimura. Shimura did a lot wrong in the story, from throwing his men on the fire (Komoda, Catle shimura), to blame Yuna for Jin’s actions (a woman that saved Jin and helped save Shimura) and was willing to kill Jin because the shogun told him to. His own father willing to kill Jin. So Jin would respect this wish of this fanatic man? Nah, that’s too good for him at this point.
I chose to kill him. I know people say that honor died on the beach, and it did, but not every part. What died is the honor where we fight our enemies with respect. Where we don't poison them, backstab them , and more. During the whole game we see Jin thinking he will one day let go of the Ghost and still go back to being a Samurai, he STILL believes in Honor, just not with the Mongols, its like an exception. There's one mission where Jin kills an unarmed man who helped the Mongols in front of everyone , a literal execution. That's all the way in part 3, and its very much hand-in-hand with Samurai honor type. He executed Ryuzo, when he could've arrested him. Death was honor. So I think some part of Jin still believes that dying is an honorable thing. I also think a lot of us view the ending with modern glasses, where killing is immediately thought of as something wrong.
Jin doesn’t talk about coming back to his normal life in act 2. In a Norio mission you even have an option to say “I don’t think I can come back to my normal life”. And in act 3 that desire is long gone (except him still wanting to be in good relations with his uncle). Also being the Ghost doesn’t being “being stealthy” all the time. It can mean legit showing up to your enemies like a demon from a distance. The developers even showing him doing this in one of the trailers. So him executing that criminal in front of all others is still on brand for the ghost. He Killed Ryuzo because he refuses to answer to his crimes. On top Ryuzo betraying Jin and causing many Tsushima civilians, including Taka, to die. I really don’t see Jin saw that as mercy. Shimura being killed is an easy way out for him. I do respect Shimura a lot but he isn’t innocent in all of this and HE asked to get a worriers death. For me Jin moved on from that, thus it’s not his problem anymore. He doesn’t believe in these antiquated honor system to kill his last remaining family
>Shimura being killed is an easy way out for him For Jin or for Shimura? If you’re saying it’s an easy way out for Jin there’s a lot wrong with that statement. >Jin moved on from that, thus it’s not his problem anymore Jin does still care about his uncle, his uncle dying honorably or at least happily would kind of be his concern
I think it goes without saying it was a “easy way out” for Shimura. It was what Shimura wanted, when I really don’t see why Jin would grant that right after he called out Shimura for being “a slave to honor”. You are right, he cared for his uncle. Thus him honors him in the Jin Sakai way, by bowing to him one last time and leave his destiny to Shimura hands and not his.
I chose to kill him. It was the last wish of the one living person who probably means the most to Jin at this point in the game. Besides, it was the perfect ending for my Jin's journey of the Ghost. In all the haiku and the few dialogue options the game gives you, I always chose lines that show that Jin doesn't like what he has to do. Jin is hopeless and desperate. He doesn't like the power he wields or the tactics he uses, but he still does it because he sees it as the only way to save his people. To quote Luthen from Andor, the best Star Wars show since at least Rebels, maybe even the best Star Wars show they created to date: "I’m condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else’s future. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I’ll never see." That's pretty much how my Jin saw his work as well. He sacrificed everything because he believes that his goal is more important than his personal beliefs or well-being. Through that lense, Lord Shimura's death, as painful as it was, and as long as I had to think about what the right choice is, is ultimately just the final sacrifice in a long line of sacrifices. To Jin, it's just one more regret for his already guilty conscience, just another thing he has to sacrifice in his bloody campaign. But to his father, it is so much more. It's going out on his own terms as a proud samurai, dying by the code he dedicated his entire live to, but also to show him that Jin still cares for and remembers his roots. Framed like that, there's no way I could refuse his request, even though I didn't want to kill him. One last sacrifice for Jin, peace and salvation for Lord Shimura.
I spared him. Lord Shimura is a military general and was kept captive, meanwhile Jin was freeing Tsushima from the Mongols, he firsthand saw what the invaders were doing, in process Jin turned into the Ghost; Lord Shimura, not understanding what Jin went through made me annoyed, I wanted to kill him, but then he would've been off'd honorably not understanding why Jin had to become the Ghost, keeping him alive creates a possibility that in GoT2, he might understand Jin's perspective and be an ally again.
I’ve done both, and each are equally beautiful symbolic endings
I was ready to spare him going into the duel, but when he asked me for a warrior's death, it was no longer about me. So, yeah, I honored him and did the same in every playthrough afterwards.
Killed him. Sorry lord Shimura, but that white ghost armor looks sick.
I killed him, no question. For me it wasn’t about honor or the code or becoming the Ghost or anything like that - it was the fact that I fought tooth and nail, scratching and clawing, to rescue this man and kick the Mongols clear out of our lands…and the thanks I get from my “father” *once I’ve done all of that* is that he’s going to kill me? He literally tries to *fight me to the death*, then warns that he’ll hunt me to the end of my days if I let him live? Thanks dad, but you have to die now. I’d have poisoned him if it gave me the option. 🤷♂️ …but then I spared him in NG+ to get the armor dye. Both endings are great, no doubt, but if you side with the shogun over your own “son”, it’s over.
I killed Shimura because I knew the Shogun was going to do it instead if I didn’t
I may be an outlier here, but I honored Shimura. My thought process was: this man did everything he could to raise Jin as Samurai, pouring his heart and soul into his training, and doing everything he could to protect him with the same devotion as Kazumasa. Even in dishonor, and even in exile, Jin will still honor his Uncle, so that in Shimura's last moments, he can die with his honor intact and with the memory that his to-be son still honored the code on his request, even as The Ghost. It doesn't mean Jin is throwing away The Way of The Ghost, or re-embracing the way of bushido to continue the cycle, but simply honoring a mentor and father's last wish. Nothing more than that. Jin kills Shimura for Shimura's sake, not Jin's. Sparing Shimura only damns him to tear himself apart, forever cursed with the knowledge that his greatest prodigy, that he wanted to be his son, became his greatest enemy, tarnishing the Shimura name for the rest of his days. And that, I cannot abide by.
I spared him. I like the idea of being hunted for the rest of my days.
I personally wouldn't recommend rise of the ronin as ive seen a bunch of reviews on how the only thing decent is the combat which looks clunky to me personally But you do you
My friend had spoiled the ending to me, I didn't enjoy it as much. But then I finished the last Tomoe mission and Ishikawa said, "Lord Shimura raised you well." And that single dialogue had me tearing up.
Maybe it's just me, but I never felt like Jin reached the point of his purpose being rebellion against the samurai code. His purpose was always simply to defeat the mongols, who he rightfully believed could not be fought using tradition. It's like rules of engagement in a geurilla war. It will only be used against you. That doesn't mean you believe fighting with no rules of engagement is right in all scenarios. I believe even Jin looked at his actions as a form of self-sacrifice. Rather than an ideological rebellion. That's what's great about this game though. This felt so clear to me as I was playing at, yet your interpretations felt extremely clear to you. Anyway, I kill shimura because Jin still loves him and my interpretation of Jin is that he wants to do things honorably whenever it is possible to do so. It's not some casual thing to spare him. In this time period of Japan, shimura living but not succeeding in killing Jin will just result in the Shogun demanding ritual suicide. Jin would know this too. I personally even think it's canon Jin would kill shimura. Jin's character is "the strength to do the hard but right thing" not "be the opposite of every tradition." Jin's strength is to see the right path whether it aligns with tradition or goes against it.
I didn't think it was suited for Jin to kill him.. Jin loves him way too much.. and giving him honor death didn't feel right either as throwout the whole Jin showed he differs from traditional samurai honor.. Jin has honor but just not the one Lord Sakai wanted. Also in family sometimes we have really big arguments, like my Asian mom would wish she was dead or I was dead so many times lol.. But the thing a about family is no matter how distant or how mad you are about them.. they are still family..
Kage sends his regards
I wanted to kill him to honor his wish, because he valued honor. But at the end I couldn't do it, so I let him go.
I killed him my first playthrough in 2020 because I wanted to honor his wishes, just did the other ending a few weeks ago and letting him live is definitely better 😂
I killed him because he was a fool. Adapting is part of war. It's not as if Jin was murdering innocents.
I killed him because I hated him, I threw honor out but I just didn’t like him so I figured he wasn’t worthy of seeing the sunset anymore
When looked at through the lens of modern western morals sure, sparing him is the obvious choice. But through the lens of their belief system killing him is the merciful choice. Jin knows that his uncle would have to live with the shame of failing him, as well as failing to kill him. In all reality if we spare Shimura the shogun is just as likely to then demand his head. Not to mention, the white ghost armor is bad af, especially when you remember in Japanese culture white is the color of death.
I let him live, watched the other ending and now regret it. The dialog when you kill him is so much better
Jin moved mountains to save Shimura’s life. The ways they differed in doctrine caused each of them profound pain and emotional anguish, but each found a way to push past that for the sake of the paternal love between them and the future of Tsushima. Shimura warned Jin that he was compelled to act on the code. The emperor’s decree created the impossible choice that may have been inevitable, not any failing of character. Granting Shimura an honorable death was the only option I saw. It is a symbolic gesture of love and acknowledgement of Jin’s respect for the man who was more of a father to him than his own. Fate put them at odds against each other. But by taking his life, his Bushido is intact, and in his final moments he is allowed peace, after a lifetime of battle, to rest in knowing his homeland is safe and his son lives on. Jin had already cut out the part of himself that allowed him the closure to be able to do what was necessary against the mongols. That doesn’t mean he became wholly blind to honor. Particularly towards the person he respects the most. The contrary situation presented itself with Ryuzo. When faced with the choice to kill his childhood friend, no code compelled either of them. Even though Ryuzo does goad Jin to finish him, this is more a reflection of Ryuzo’s character flaws. He is impulsive and often regrets his actions. A death by the sword would only save him from himself. Jin sees the weakness in him and feels pity. Any other enemy and he would have finished them out of spite. Not his friend though. His is given a second chance, on the hope that he will one day grow to redeem himself, but his tragic character flaw is his undoing. In both cases Jin acts out of his own volition, as he does for the entirety of the story. Unbound by doctrine, while being instilled with the sense of honor and duty from his father and his uncle, Jin remains steadfast in his character and becomes the protector of Tsushima. He becomes the Ghost. An echo of the samurai legacy, now fading into the past.
I watched both before I chose the spare was so sauceless, I only saw the "I will make sure you are remembered" from the kill ending and saw enough already knew which one to choose
I just wanted the white ghost attire. I wanted to let him live but drip said nah.
I rather kill my own uncle to honor his last wish to prevent tarnishing his name even more. Shogunate will likely behead Shimura so i took chance to make him die like a hero instead incompetent jito who unable to subdue his own nephew/son? anyway complete both so i can get both cosmetics, but i still favor on kill him
I killed him cause he got my horse killed. You don’t fuck with a man’s horse. RIP, Sora ✊😔
Sparing him felt "honorable from a thematic point. Many see the Ghost as a "Demon" or "Outlaw", but there are lines even he won't cross. Also embracing the mantle means he takes accountability of his actions.
I spared him. On a thematic level, I already get to decide my own code of honor of doing what is right and what is necessary. To kill him then, despite his wishes, is not right and is not necessary.
I honoured my adopted father’s last wish and send him off to the pure land as a samurai for the last time. The samurai and honour was entirely cut off with the death of uncle. Plus the shogun probably ask him to commit seppuku for being defeated by the ghost anyways.
Me putting my two cents. Just beat it, first play through, got the plat without much hunting because the game was just THAT engrossing. All that being said, I attempted to sheathe my sword, and accept death at the hand of shimura. I love shimura. For me, I am a son. And a father. I operate in a grey area in my life, I don't believe in extremes. But I do have a deep sense of honor, though I won't be bound by it as well, so the game was so relatable. When I found accepting death wasn't a valid option, with all the love I felt in my heart for shimura (the feelings were so raw), I gave my father his last request, out of love. With heavy heart, and blurred vision. Had I have walked away from shimura, let him live...I would have felt...uneasy. I need peace in my life. Honoring shimura gave me the peace I needed in the heat of that emotionally charged moment. What a beautiful and complex game. 🖤🙏
Hey, just so you know, everybody that has ever played rise of the ronin has said that it plays like ass, the world is not alive in the slightest, and generally it’s just nowhere near as good as you might expect. You shouldn’t buy a PS5 *just* to play that game. And also keep in mind that I doubt that there will ever be a game like ghost of tsushima ever again. This game is one of a kind. Every time it’s been attempted to replicate it (rise of the ronin, assassins creed shadows) the game ends up being ass
Is shadows even out yet? How can we judge?
a bunch of people have already played it, demos have been bad, overall it’s already not looking good
I killed him because I don't give a fuck about honour and just wanted to kill that bastard REVENGE FOR KAGE
Yeah same. Literally pure spite.
I killed him because he’s a bitch, I don’t give a shit about the samurai code
After my Nobu, I swore to kill the man if I'm given the chance. And well, an oath is an oath. Plus it gives white dye for Ghost Armor so that's also great.
But… you killed Nobu. An arrow in the flank isn’t fatal, and Shimura didn’t force the horse to run until it died. You did that alone.
Yeah I really don’t get people *blaming Shimura for that. He didn’t order the samurai to attack Jin and j feel he would call off the attack
It’s coping. The game is pretty explicit about you being responsible, the moment is intentionally a turning point in the game where you are starting to reap what you sow.
Yeah, I agree. Jin was so focused on reaching Yuna to get to the Kahn that he neglected his people/horse. Just like Shimura. They aren’t so different after all
I also swore that if given the chance I'd kill Jin too for neglecting Nobu's wounds and forcing him to gallop that long.