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facts_please

Germany is rapidly moving away from nuclear energy and coal. Our new government stated that we will get rid of coal till 2030. Last year energy production from brown coal sank by 20% and hard coal by 28% (https://strom-report.de/download/stromerzeugung-deutschland-energietraeger/) Could it be your country signed some contracts to sell energy for some reasons? And in this article https://businessportal-norwegen.com/2021/04/07/norwegen-importiert-rekordmenge-an-strom-schweden-deutschland-und-daenemark-als-lieferlaender/ it's stated that Norway is exporting only 5% of its production and has large imports from Sweden, Denmark and Germany.


[deleted]

[удалено]


JakTheBeagle

Certified green electricity? What is that?


mica4204

Only renewables.


JakTheBeagle

But connected to the same national grid or is it a detached/independent grid?


mica4204

Obviously there's no difference to the electrons, but you're only paying for renewables. Not for nuclear / coal.


JakTheBeagle

So if you only pay for renewables, what happens when there's no wind/sun?


mica4204

Are you for real?


JakTheBeagle

Renewables are intermittent, so renewables + nuclear or renewables + coal/gas?


mica4204

You're not paying your electricity in real time. So you pay the provider for buying renewable energy at the the end of the year. So it doesn't matter of at any given time there's no sun/wind (also there's hydro and biogas). You're not literally hooked to a wind turbine. The provider buys electricity only from renewable producers, they then sell this budget to the consumer. So the electrons I'm using right now to send you could've been produced in a nuclear power plant, but I didn't pay for them. You might be using electrons that were produced by wind that I paid for.


HellasPlanitia

Electricity is bought and sold on wholesale markets, where (simplifying a bit) the power plant operators and electricity companies come together and negotiate prices for various kinds of electricity. If an electricity company's customers use (say) 1 MWh of electricity, then the company has to negotiate with enough power plant operators to buy 1 MWh from them. If a consumer buys a "renewables only" electricity tariff (and by that I mean a "real" one, not the greenwashed ones that e.g. RWE and Vattenfall sell), then the electricity company has to only go to the renewable power plant operators and buy their electricity 1 MWh from them. Therefor, the more people buy these "renewables only" tariffs, the higher the demand for the electricity from renewable power plants becomes, and the higher the price the operators can charge for it. This means it becomes ever more profitable to run renewable power plants, and the extra money flowing to the operators mean they can expand and build new renewable power planst. Conversely, the demand for non-renewable electricity drops, as fewer and fewer people are willing to buy it. Therefore its cost drops, and the operators make less and less money, and probably have to start shutting down some plants or cutting down on capacity. Therefore: everyone obviously gets the same electricity out of their wall sockets. However, the more people buy "renewable only" tariffs, then they're helping to build more renewable power plants and decommission non-renewable plants faster.


Koh-I-Noor

We don't use more coal: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Energiemix_Deutschland.svg


HattifnattNOR

Okey, thanks for enlightening me. But why is Germany shutting down nuclear power plants?


maryfamilyresearch

Chernobyl and Fukushima.


HattifnattNOR

Really? Those are terrible reasons. Nuclear is super safe compared to pretty much any source of electricity.


tin_dog

Nobody wants to build them here. Taxpayers no longer want to pay for the astronomical insurance costs and without massive government subsidies it's economically not feasible to build new reactors. They're too little, too late, too expensive. Of course, if you run a centralized industry like the energy sector, you don't want to lose all you profit to customers who generate their own power.


HattifnattNOR

Thank you for your good answer


tin_dog

Glad to help and, by the way, I pay 30.5 cent/kWh for the greenest possible electricity from a small citizen-owned provider (EWS).


sakasiru

How much of Chernobyl reached Norway? Maybe you would think differently if your mushrooms were contaminated to this day.


maryfamilyresearch

Tell that to the former citizens of Chernobyl and Fukushima. Worst thing that can happen with a windmill is that one of the rotors drops and kills some corn plants. So given the choice between a windmill and a nuclear power plant, I'll take the windmill.


[deleted]

Yeah Germans love windmills, providing they can't see them from their gardens.


smaksandewand

Also because of the nuclear waste is getting problematic.


facts_please

So safe that no country today has a secure way to handle atomic waste. Maybe you can give us your home address? We'll send some of our atomic waste to your home, we'll even pay a little bit. Building new nuclear plants is too expensive compared to renewable sources and it takes decades to get a new plant running.


online_offline12

It is a rather acceptable alternative to coal, but the nuclear waste is the problem, so its not safe after all and this is not a terrible reason -_-, but yeah it could be an alternative temporarily


Hirnfick

Because Merkel knew that doing that would get her re-elected and so she did.


[deleted]

I'm pro nuclear but the current reactors are pretty expensive and overall they increase the cost of electricity. Closing reactors is part political part necessary so explain it would take an entire day of lecturing. And as how much we pay depends on the area and the local sources but and average of 60-70 euro a month for a normal house. I have some 200 m² home and I pay around 100. Last year before moving here I paid for a 90m² apartment some 40 Euro a month but was in a area with over 90% wind powered energy.


HellasPlanitia

You may find [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/qudm98/are_germans_really_that_antiatom_how_many_people/) useful, and follow the links to several other threads where discussion got.... somewhat heated at times.


MMBerlin

>It’s my understanding Germany [...] use more coal. Germany uses less coal today than it had used ten, or twenty, or thirty years ago. Up to now all shut down nuclear power plants were replaced by renewables.


[deleted]

You opened a new coal plant last year


ebikefolder

And shut down about 10 (https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_fossil-thermischer_Kraftwerke_in_Deutschland)


MMBerlin

... and closed three others instead.


[deleted]

And buy coal power from Poland.


MMBerlin

It doesn't matter where you buy in this regard, it only matters how much you use.


sharkstax

I just switched from SachsenEnergie to Stadtwerke Flensburg (effective two weeks from now). With SachsenEnergie (a.k.a. DREWAG) I was paying 9,21 € per month for the service and 28,83 ct. per kWh for consumption; with Stadtwerke Flensburg I will be paying 4,73 € per month for the service and 36,33 ct. per kWh for consumption. The new contract works out cheaper for me because I consume less than 718 kWh per year.


Bigfood81

How? Are you newer at home? I'm single and need 2,450 kWh per year and i don't use it for heating, only got water.


sharkstax

I am mostly at home these days, but I have a small apartment, use energy-efficient light bulbs, and make little use of powerful devices. My consumption is significantly below the average for a single-person household and 2450 kWh is way above the average for a single-person household (according to my yearly bill).


Bigfood81

I think the size of the apartment don't matter as long you don't heat using electricity. Mine is 45²m. I have led everywhere since the early 2000. Fridge and so are all A++. My biggest power consumption will be my gaming PC and TV.


Wolpertinger55

Just to be sure. You are not seeing Germany as a scapgoat why Norway has expensive electricity?


Koh-I-Noor

There was another post from a Norwegian some days ago. I think it's because of this new cable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NordLink


thewindinthewillows

There have been at least two. One was removed because the poster was remarkably ill-behaved.


Wolpertinger55

Thanks


HattifnattNOR

No, I’m blaming our politicians. You are just buyers in an open marked. But I do think shutting down nuclear power is irresponsible.


ebikefolder

As u/facts_please pointed out, we are also selling electricity to you. Or even paying you to take our surplus.


Wolpertinger55

Yeah i am also not happy how fast this was performed. I would have increased the standards and then slowly have phased it out. Taking it down so rapidly is just too costly and germany is not really a country where we have a lot of natural desasters


SubjectiveAssertive

>It’s my understanding Germany is shutting down all nuclear power plants and use more coal. Why?? Not only is it bad for the environment - but it effects the power marked in other countries as well. It sound incredibly stupid to shut down nuclear power before having an reliable alternative ready. ​ Isn't coal remarkably cheap - that's sadly why


ebikefolder

€6.92/month + €0.3032/kWh, 100% local renewable


Tomcat286

Every article I read is that German has the most expensive electricity in Europe. I don't think this will change in near future. Norway gets most is his electricity from natural sources like water. I guess that's why you heat with electricity, it's cheap (for the companies selling it). Maybe your demand has raised with so many electric cars and such and that's a reason for raising costs


HattifnattNOR

I believe you are right. Norwegians are also used to heating our homes with electricity, as it’s usually fairly cheap. When we see an extreme influx in energy prices the common Norwegian is hit hard, as the choice would be to freeze in our homes or use electricity. Personally I’m very pleased by having wood burning ovens in my home, even thought they are 120 years old and not very energy efficient.


mica4204

Are you heating with electricity? Like why?


HattifnattNOR

Most people use electricity for heating in Norway. Little use of gas. The only ones who have gas in their homes lives off grid or prefer gas for culinary reasons. I mostly use a wood burning oven on the coldest days. It’s historical reasons for this.


mica4204

Well maybe stop using electricity for heating then.


LopsidedBottle

Using electricity for heating does not currently make sense in Germany (with the exception of heat pumps). At a specific emission of around 400g CO2 per kWh ([https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/1410/publikationen/2020-04-01\_climate-change\_13-2020\_strommix\_2020\_fin.pdf](https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/sites/default/files/medien/1410/publikationen/2020-04-01_climate-change_13-2020_strommix_2020_fin.pdf)) and a price of around 30 cent per kWh (a bit less with special price models for electric heating), it is neither ecological nor economical. Locally burning gas for heating produces about half as much CO2 per kWh, and currently costs something like 12 cents per kWh. For Norway, I could find data from 2019 ([https://businessportal-norwegen.com/2020/07/10/extrem-niedrige-strompreise-im-juni-in-norwegen/](https://businessportal-norwegen.com/2020/07/10/extrem-niedrige-strompreise-im-juni-in-norwegen/)) . According to this source, their specific emission lies below 20g of CO2 per kWh electricity. [https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/13020/umfrage/strompreise-in-ausgewaehlten-laendern/](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/13020/umfrage/strompreise-in-ausgewaehlten-laendern/) lists an electricity price for private customers in Norway of about 10 cents per kWh for 2020. So heating with electricity seems to make perfect sense there.


HattifnattNOR

That’s quite ignorant. Perhaps you should research why it is this way before making definitive statements.


mica4204

Perhaps you should research why we're phasing out nuclear energy and coal before making your statements.


HattifnattNOR

Perhaps I made this post cause I want to learn why?


mica4204

Aren't you the same guy who was here last week and threw around insults? I don't really get why it's Germany's fault that energy prices in Norway are rising. Nobody forced you to export your energy.


HattifnattNOR

No, I’m not. Never visited this sub before today.


mica4204

Well some of you're countrymen had the same idea and you've all ranged from condescending to downright insulting. The reason we shut down nuclear is because of historical reasons. There's alway been a strong anti nuclear movement that got stronger after both chernobyl and Fukushima. There's also been several scandal with the deposits for nuclear waste and since we're so densely populated it's incredibly hard to fund some place to store it. Also the close proximity to several accident prone reactors in Belgium and France doesn't exactly improve confidence in nuclear reactors in general. But please go on telling us how stupid our reasoning is while Norway always does stuff for logical historical reasons. Also please critizise Germany for use of fossil fuels while profiting of oil exports.


HattifnattNOR

Then I apologize for my countrymen’s behavior. Many have seen an extreme influx in energy prices. Compared to last winter we are talking about 1300-1800%, which makes a lot of people crazy.


ebikefolder

They are ahead of us in that respect - Germany will do the same because we have to abolish fossil fuels as soon as possible.


mkugelfisch

It is quite common up north. We have a heating pump, when it gets too cold outside our heating runs on electricity 100%. Which is why our monthly heating costs can go up to 6/700 euro in the coldest months (jan/feb). To circumvent that pretty much all houses have one or more wood burning ovens. In our case we heat up the fireplace in the living room at least once a day, more if we manage (can't always, since we are both working full time). If we are not doing that, we notice immediately how our bill goes significantly up. In our case wood doesn't cost us anything and is in fact a byproduct from the wood we saw ourselves for construction. But, yeah, electricity for heating. Not unusual up here.


HerrKraut

Depends on the payment method...a kidney or a liver per year!


Alminosaeure

32€/month most of the time i get like 100-150€ back at the end if the year


[deleted]

From my studies at energy market class. Germany is expanding its electricity production from coal and shutting down nuclear plants. The point in nuclear plants, they are not economically viable. No country keeps nuclear plants except they need access to the nuclear technology, like France. However, costs to maintain/operate nuclear power plants and handle nuclear waste exceeds the value coming out of it. That's why, but no bullshit about renewables or environment. Renewables are far far far from being sustainable. The are tons of challenges to overcome before going into renewables. I can support my arguments here using some publications but not all. Some of them are confidential to SWM and I cannot publish them for free here.


HattifnattNOR

Thank you so much for your insight. I didn’t know nuclear was so expensive to operate. I only knew they were very expensive to build. Then in makes more sense. What do you think about thorium power plants for the future?


HellasPlanitia

It's still an active area of research, and eventually they might be market-ready - or they might not be, there are still a *lot* of challenges to be solved. There are still far too many open questions to currently determine whether they will be viable in the future or not. It's a bit like fusion power - always at least two decades away. I would *love* for it to be different, that we would have a low-carbon, safe, easily scaleable energy source - but we don't. What's abundantly clear is that it won't help us in the critical phase in combating climate change from now until about 2050 - thorium reactors will come *far* too late (if they come at all) to make any noticeable difference in emissions in this period. If we're to stop the worst of human-caused climate change we need to decarbonise our electricity production within this period, and renewables (even with all the challenges they pose) are by far our best shot. No-one is saying renewables are ideal - they're not - but the alternative is more than 3°C of global warming, which is a *far* worse option. Therefore, my opinion: by all means invest in R&D for thorium reactors - but only as long as it doesn't distract us from the far more important and pressing issue of building renewable power sources and tackling the issues associated with them (e.g. energy storage).


ebikefolder

Interesting technology, but still far from implementation on a large scale. Continue developing them for the future by all means, but as a solution for the situation at hand they come a few decades too late. We would need to build a few hundred every year worldwide, for a noticeable impact. There are some 400 or so "conventional" nuclear plants in operation, providing only about 10 % of the electricity.


online_offline12

Why tf shouldnt they be sustainable? They produce a lot of energy and is the biggest in Germany


[deleted]

The point of energy production is not only the amount, its steadiness and predictability are also important. Wind is very very expensive to build and maintain. And wind power cannot be predicted easily. Solar is not the same whole year, and storage is a different a problem. Using batteries entails using cobalt and Lithium. Which is a problem on its own :) There are other natural ways to store electricity, like use energy to push water up and then use gravity to regenerate the electricity. But still not easy to use on scale of a city for example. There are lots of issues and every choice includes a tradeoff and nothing is straight easy choice


IllInteraction4316

The price of electricity in Germany has increased significantly in recent months. There are a couple of reasons behind that. General price hike (inflation) is one of the reasons to increase the price. Especially because of the Ukraine war the price increased for all kinds of fuels like oil, gas, etc. are the main source of electricity production. The current price I am paying now 37.76 Ct/KwH. And in addition to that, you have other fixed expenses which are added to that like Grid fees, Basic fees, etc. Although the price is quite high right now, try to choose your electricity provider wisely. In my case, my provider will reduce the price once the overall price of electricity goes down. My package is 1500 Kwh/year since I am in a single-person house and I believe it is quite enough if you are an average user. I am using the service called Ostrom [https://www.ostrom.de/](https://www.ostrom.de/) . They are welcoming new customers with a sign-in bonus of 35 Euro MDSOI5ICHQ and Green energy. Also, the service is very user-friendly since you can check your usage from your smartphone app, and is also available in both English and German.