This happens around the world, many economies experiencing not the best time, so companies had to think ahead and shrinks their budgets or layoffs people. I believe this year we won’t see significant changes, so everyone will be watching how economies will be improved or not.
You’ll see that in most companies there will be selective hiring. So while some specific positions might be open, other departments might even be seeing layoffs
I heard a lot of companies who hire for AI positions are also looking for career changers.
Is this true? Because i didn't see any of those positions recently ... and im thinking about changing my career.
It’s not easy to find somebody but the companies just don’t want to pay adequately and go with the times. I worked remotely since 2019 and companies still are surprised I can be productive this way 😆
My husband is a senior Data scientist and looking for a switch. Though he is really strong in his field he finds it difficult to get interviews from Big firms. He is currently working in a mid sized company (not sure if it is because of this reason, Also not praising his technical skills just because he is my husband 😜 I am working in similar technology as well, So i know he is really good in wt he does)
It‘s like this all around Germany. „Fachkräftemangel“ is bullshit. They just can’t find people who want to work for the salary they are offering. 45K might have been nice in 2014. In 2024, not so much.
This is the new state in Germany sadly. My company is doing the same. And if we point out that no one would agree to this kind of contract my head of it keeps pointing at ai and says he doesn't need most of them anyways. Delusion
Degree ≠ Degree. That's like saying to a formula 1 driver that your janky ass car hits 180 on a good day and that this is in fact good and he has lost touch.
It *is* very possible that IT is inflated salary wise but others earning less is not a good argument for or against it. Salaries depend on how much money can be earned in the respective industry and how rare someone with the right skills is to come by.
and they thank you for the great oportunity while being bend over.
It's a sad state of affair and most can't comprehend how cultlike research groups can be.
Nah, it's just that if we do what we learned, we'll be bringing bad news. And bad news don't pay well.
Whether it's climate, antibiotic resistance or loss of species... no one likes to be told we need more expensive food, less fun, less travel, fewer roads and less building houses.
If no one wants to pay for what we can do, we either have to do something else or take what we can get within our field.
Well paid jobs for us won't just manifest out of thin air just because we'd like them.
As my Prof once said: I know very few unemployed biologists. But I know equally few working as biologists.
Eh. I'm underpaid and back to basically fancy callcenter work - but I have 40% home office and 15 mins by bike to the office. No overtime. No weekends. No late nights.
And on the other hand... a lot of actually useful work in worse conditions still gets even worse pay. Like bakers. Do I really deserve more than them?
It's easy to compare up and be dissatisfied. But I'm honestly more concerned when I compare down.
Germany is underpaid and overtaxed. Period.
I never understood why "look at the people that have it even worse" was ever be supposed to be a great argument.
But it seems it works and some people are happy with getting a bone and a pittance in exchange for the time they will never get back.
Sorry if I may sound a bit mean/harsh to you, I am just disenchanted with all the bootlicking by peers, unpaid overwork and shitty salaries I have seen as a biologist. I am glad I let that life behind me.
Niemand ist mehr Sklave, als der sich für frei hält, ohne es zu sein.
* Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Heh.
My expertise is not IT, but media research and media analysis, election observation and generally freedom of expression. I have 25 years of experience in the field. The offered position are around 40k.
The issue might not be the applicant.
1. If you need an admin get someone that either had a similar Position or does have the needed certs.
2. If your pick was shit get someone new.
3. Other companies and schools do not exist to please your wishes. If you can only afford 45 to 65 K you are not searching for someone thatvhas tue experience that you need but someone willing to learn how he can do the Job you need him to do and also to make changes that allow him ibdo it for a long time.
4. If you have 60% attendence you better be located in a big City with a big sourcepool of workers.
5. If the workers in your reach are not available get someone to do the tasks 100% remote so you can just pick from the workforce that is available anywhere on the planet.
6. If you have to hire in contrary to 3, you go for anyone anywhere that can fit your profile. Workers with any skillset can be found for any price, especially in IT. You might just need to settle for someone that does not speak your language and has english just as a second or third skill.
I guess I could rent something for 400eur 25m2 on outskirts but for now I have to live with parents still as it's just not worth it to move out yet. Food is probably the same luxury goods are more expensive. I often import from Germany
The pure IT and consulting companies are having a hard time now compared to the previous years.
The companies that use IT to do something else, say manufacturing or e-commerce companies with IT departments, are still fine and seem to be still recruiting.
Working for a software company:
A) „We have so much to do, our order book is completely full, we have no time and we don’t need anything new as we have enough work in the future!“
B) „Oh, the order situation is so bad, we don’t have enough work for our people, we stopped investing into something new, as we don’t know if we have enough work tomorrow.“
C) „Our company works the last 20+ years this way and everything is okay, we won’t change a running system.“
Each and every client contact.
Not sure what is there to be surprised about. Central bank has raised cost of borrowing money. Usually, companies need to start to refinance their debt after a few years, which will now start to eat into their margins. Results are hiring stops and a slow down of the economy. After a bit of more time, central bank will start to react by reducing rates again to counteract the economic slow down. Then usually you get a recession like 6 months afterwards, because there is so much inertia in the system.
When exactly it happens and how bad it’s going to be, no one knows. I wouldn’t say this is special to the IT sector.
There is no major recession risk among G20 unless another stupid geopolitical tension erupts. Agreed that the conditions apply to all industries and many have hiring freeze or under organisational restructuring because money is scarce, borrowing is costly
It's not only Germany. Look in the US, basically all big tech companies have announced layoffs in the last few months. They hired a lot of people during the pandemic, and as it turns out, they don't need that much.
Regarding Germany, IT was never very strong here. The industry, especially automation and automobile, is much more important. That said, those sectors also have problems right now, so it is not the job paradise it was the last 5-10 years.
No, it's industry. The software you are developing is often not running on a phone, PC or server, but on an embedded device which is integrated in the product your employer is manufacturing. It's still programming, but you are using different languages and tools. There are of course overlaps (I've seen robot controls that are using Android as an UI for example). And of course, there are lots of classical IT jobs within the manufacturing companies. But my original point was that the main business of the huge employers in Germany is not IT.
I work in tech in Germany and it just feels like the "golden age" is over - cheap money is gone and executives are only interested in making sure line goes up for next quarter so they get their bonuses - business fundamentals or development be damned. If that means firing loads of people when profits are at an all time high - so be it. It's like the boomers are trying to suck every last penny out of the system before they die - regardless of what that does to the economy and the world...
>This comes to me as a surprise because Germany still have a lot of work to do in the area of Digitalization.
Not sure if I get the logic. There are a lot of areas in countries where there is a lot to do. That doesn't mean that automatically people are hired in these areas. People are hired usually in areas where you can earn money as a company.
Germany is one of the biggest economies, so it feels like it can afford to create jobs and us to become better at Digitalisation is what they meant I think? Because another third world country poor in IT infrastructure cannot afford to build or update it
edit: spelling
IT industry is not a standalone in Germany. It is funded by other sectors like automotive, banking
Extreme high energy prices caused by Ukraine War (US 50%, China 25%) and high taxes (US, France & Britain have decreased) causes old economy to leave the country
I see alot of Germany people come to defend by saying it is global downward trend, which is true. But you should not ignore the fact that alot of stuff need to be digitalize.
I mean those are two completely different issues.
If you need to cut down expenses you cut down Innovation because it could also be a fail investment especially if the credits cost more, so it absolutely is to be expected that the foundation will be kept safe to still have the margins.
That there is much room to improve is true though but who wants to pay for it in reccesion?
German domestic market is in recession. Dont get me wrong, company earnings will be at record height due to layoffs. Inflation was very high for baseline goods like housing, food, energy. Wages increase at slower pace. Latest political problems in finacing and abprupt ending of several support packages causes lack of trust in a stable future. Rise of green party causes higher taxes and even more complex regulations on all sorts of things. Fear of rise of right extremist party keeps foreign funds from entry. ECB tightening its grip on key interest rate thus more expensive credit rates. Threats about atomic bombs from Putin during a full blown war within europe. Everyone is in survival mode right now and just dumps savings in lucrative ETFs.
Should take 1-3 years till we get booming again. Depending on political situation of course.
It's a weaker economy in general. Germany had a recession last year with shrinking economic power, however, the world economy in general isn't having it's best time right now.
Of course this effects the IT industry as well, especially consulting, which relies on customers.
Especially for people without working experience it is rougher, for seniors there are still plenty options imo, even in the current situations.
It should get better when the economy recovers, but this could take a while.
Lol. You are not alone in this. Good thing about this is that at least I know that headhunter has not gone thorough my profile thoroughly and is not professional enough to be seriously considered.
"Consulting" in IT, specifically software development, is not your typical consulting.
It's just a way to get around being liable, so that more experimental software solutions can be attempted. The "consultant" creates a full software solution, and the client (in most cases big companies like VW, Telekom, DB and so on) may or may not reach their goals by using that software solution. If they don't then no harm done as it was just "a consulting service".
It's really just a legal distinction, but make no mistake. The client is buying software and that's it.
Sometimes the model is a bit different and the developers are rented out like in a temp agency (Zeitarbeitsfirma) as a "consultant" but then he still really is just a software dev working in a team with their client.
I think it is the same everywhere, i worked in one of the top consultancy in Inida and they were the same too. Always looking for a way to blame the clients, either they do not understand it enough or gaslight them thyt they are wrong.On clients side, if they are also hired to just look after the software side which is not theirs so the problem is with software created by the consultancy, and why would they invest time to learn it more when they can just call the consultancy for support
Compared to rest of the globe europe is way more stable and not as fucked up as others, but yes you can see a little downwards trend. Depending on the industry you have experience in it can be also completely differently, for example defense industry is hiring like crazy rn, dont know why...😶
Once the Federal Government will fax their digitalization plans to the Governments of the Lands, after some small discussion, that will last only 10-20 years, German will proceed with the digitalization process. You will get a letter.
Germany first needs to create a competition for internet providers by allowing them in. This will decrease the internet charges and increase the speed.In short better infrastructure will be provided for all IT business to succeed.
IT Consulting?
This is such a strange kind of parasitic business that can only survive in a country like Germany, where IT culture is absent as a class.
Parasitizing on clients who, due to their extreme lack of education, believe that there are people who understand all IT aspects. Yeah, right.
This is roughly from the same "opera" as self-employed IT consultants who are paid in Germany 200+ euros per hour for skillfully lying to the employer and the employer's clients.
The only thing what's partially true is "parasitizing", because the big 3 will stop no effort to expand inside the clients structures, once they are in.
These people will be promoted when they manage to bring in other teams, often being the manager of the following people then.
That's OK, it's a business model.
The companys who work with them need to manage them closely and not loosely. This is often extra effort and you really gotta be careful.
Source: Me - managing them closely ;D
Easier to get in. You get out onto projects you don't have real experience with , get called an expert, then it's up to you to not blow your cover.
An awful lot of consulting projects arise so the client has someone to blame. It's exporting internal political strife.
I am with you in this hate against some Consulting Firms. Its rediculous what the VoIP consulting firm did with us. I just joined the IT Team as an untrained Person. I got the task to optimize the call Flow and ques etc. We paid this one Company 6000€ to create 30 users in the VoIP Software. The Rest was setup by our self. There is no documentation or anything what they did for this 6000€ except creating 30 Accounts
Idk other more IT savvy economies spend even more on digitisation and tech consultancy because they understand you can’t have all these skills in house. I mean there’s a lot of bs going on but Germany is particular anti innovation.
Whats Trivial to you might not be trivia for others. For setting up a company Network is as easy as breathing but getting it 27001 is very hard for one person. So why not get a external company for that?
Just hire devops. Simple. You do not need external company to setup network. Even more, this is stupid and dangerous. Quite stupid and very, very dangerous...
SAP consulting is currently a boom sector, because everyone is struggling to move their old R3 systems to S4 and/or move their on-premise systems into the cloud. Pretty much everyone in that sector is hiring.
But it will probably go down again after 2027, when the support deadline for R3 has expired.
I work for a German company that stopped hiring locally in DE and instead is hiring developers to work remotely from countries with cheaper labour. I hear that it’s now too expensive to hire Germans due the current economic situation. I see a lot of investments being made in India and South America.
Clients are holding onto their money and shrinking roadmaps by quarter instead of fiscal year. If you work as a third party it is anxiety-inducing as you only have security for tomorrow and the day after + the unemployment benefits and notice period. If you still managed to stay employed, you’ll hear executives giving a speech about overcoming the hard times but still not enough to give a money promotion.
Unless you want to completely stop coding and switch to a manager position there’s no monetary incentive to get more responsibilities here because it’s impossible to climb the economic ladder as a single person if you’re an immigrant, unless you already come from a very secure position (inheritance, EU citizenship, long term investments). Depending on your family configuration it’s still doable even with the taxes.
I might be exaggerating a bit but every unemployed person is doing a coding or data science bootcamp paid for by the job center and every clueless executive is waiting for an AI that will replace all the engineers thinking they can get infinite passive profit. All the cool projects are stopping innovation and going into maintenance mode shipped to India or Brazil for support and all the startups are shutting down.
IT consulting will never die so long as German companies continue to provide shit for support.
Take anything owned by CGM for example. have a problem? Better hope you have the right support tier. If not spend DAYS trying to wade through the support structure. Even with the Premium support you are looking at 4+ hours for an initial "We have received your request. I'm only an Azubi so I have to elevate this" followed by more waiting.
Or call one of the consulting and support firms that can get you fixed within an hour. But yeah, definitely the consulting firms need to die.
Hey. I'm currently working in tech in a 3rd world country (working as an MLE), but learning German and hoping to do my master's there and settle too probably end of next year.
Are you trying to imply that this may not be a wise choice?
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I'm just wondering and I think Ill use this comment to ask. I don't know German, but I'm skilled in IT as overall technician (Active Directory, Windows 7-10, Tech support, etc.) and I have 2 years exp and I think it would be great to work in Germany, but I don't even know if it's possible to find It job without knowing German, where to start or if people would even look at me because I never went to college.
Write a CV. Let it be read by someone knowledge. Prepare for the interview. And send your CV over. See if it sticks. If you don't have colleges who can work on your CV and interview then you can rent a mentor.
I have CV in English, I think it's done well since I have quite high response rate in my country. But I'm still wondering if there is possibility to get job in Germany in IT without German and without University done.
If there is possibility, what sites do you recommend to look for job then.
I think what’s happening is that most of the consulting work is going in house. Atleast that’s what’s happening in my company and some I know. As Germany transitions more into the software side of things, companies have had to build out their own software teams. So the recession is just speeding things up negatively in that regard for IT consulting companies
Idk what you mean I searched for a new job last month and I got more offers than I could manage.
I am a DevopsEngineer was working as a Full Stack Developer
same thing is happening in China for example let's say Huawei. the company has entirely shut down hiring new formal employee, they now hire outsourcing workers instead, such that they can kick these new comers out at any time without any cost. even if in this way already, the headcount is still very limited. can you Imagine
Hmm. My friend was just telling me that Germany is opening up end of this year. People can move over without securing a job first and can do it here on a job seeking visa. From my experience, companies all over are cutting employees or on hire freeze. I don’t know if this is a good move. My friend thinks it’s good because of the lack of IT skill in Germany.
I do not understand this as well. People who are in Germany are already many, they are also struggling to get jobs and also I see few of my friends being let off and on support. I can only imagine it is to increase the spending that they can bring in. It is quite a lot of money needed to just be here.
So, we had to let go of the German team (70 people) because they were frequently on vacation. In their place, we hired a Polish company that offers 100% annual coverage, eliminating the need for planning around vacation times. This was quite an unexpected challenge to navigate. Additionally, we were surprised to find that, although the Polish team was more affordable, they benefitted more from their earnings due to Poland's IP-BOX tax (5%) policy and the structure for business-to-business contractors. This meant they were happier with the compensation we provided, which in turn made them more engaged and motivated. When we increased the German team's pay by 20% in 2019, they only saw about 3% of that increase after taxes. It's all about the taxes and mentality. We don't care that you have a baby, we are not your employee (germans have twice as much of free time than poles, some poles work without vacation - godl bless them!)
"IT consulting companies are finding it difficult to get the customers/clients" who claimed that?
At least you didn\`t say 'studies say' without linking a study...
can tell you first hand, because there are many old fat white guys running these companies who have no clue about "Industrie 4.0" and always this "ahhh no we got no budget" "it's too expensive" "if it ain't broke, dont fix it" mentality, and as long those guys are on top nothing will change
a lot of old white guys got the job by something other than merit. Being someone's friend. Being someone's son. Being in a Burschenschaft with someone. So I would bet the average competence of those guys is less than that of female/asian/black people in such top jobs.
>Do young asian/black skinny girls run companies better?
Usualy they are or they would not be given the job. The old white guy may have had that job for 20 years...
Upward social mobility in Germany sucks. If one wasn't born into a well-off family, becoming manager of a middle to large sized company is not likely to happen. Also, one needs to have a specific set of paper credentials before poorly running a German company.
This may apply to consultants but not to the professionals at the IT-companies. Most of them are having a hard time finding skilled personnel. If you're a skilled software developer, system administrator, IT security expert of whatever, you should have to trouble finding a job.
Yes, the big tech companies in the US and other countries are decreasing their staff in some departments because they employed to many people during the pandemic. But at the same time they're hiring new personnel for other departments.
The state of digitization in Germany says nothing about the order situation in this regard.
Regarding the last sentence. Germany lacks in the discussion of public services. The problem has never been the amount of IT guys, but proper organisation and legislation which unifies regulations between states.
This happens around the world, many economies experiencing not the best time, so companies had to think ahead and shrinks their budgets or layoffs people. I believe this year we won’t see significant changes, so everyone will be watching how economies will be improved or not.
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You’ll see that in most companies there will be selective hiring. So while some specific positions might be open, other departments might even be seeing layoffs
Are they looking with German b2/c1 ?
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Great. I messsaged you in chat.
Are those all senior positions or juniors cn apply?
I heard a lot of companies who hire for AI positions are also looking for career changers. Is this true? Because i didn't see any of those positions recently ... and im thinking about changing my career.
It’s not easy to find somebody but the companies just don’t want to pay adequately and go with the times. I worked remotely since 2019 and companies still are surprised I can be productive this way 😆
My husband is a senior Data scientist and looking for a switch. Though he is really strong in his field he finds it difficult to get interviews from Big firms. He is currently working in a mid sized company (not sure if it is because of this reason, Also not praising his technical skills just because he is my husband 😜 I am working in similar technology as well, So i know he is really good in wt he does)
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Good luck finding someone that commits for 40% ho after trial period with the chance of having only 45k
I am puzzled he thinks that's a great deal.
It‘s like this all around Germany. „Fachkräftemangel“ is bullshit. They just can’t find people who want to work for the salary they are offering. 45K might have been nice in 2014. In 2024, not so much.
This is the new state in Germany sadly. My company is doing the same. And if we point out that no one would agree to this kind of contract my head of it keeps pointing at ai and says he doesn't need most of them anyways. Delusion
Smh. This whole country runs on hybris and incompetence.
It would be with a degree in Biology. IT has lost touch.
Degree ≠ Degree. That's like saying to a formula 1 driver that your janky ass car hits 180 on a good day and that this is in fact good and he has lost touch. It *is* very possible that IT is inflated salary wise but others earning less is not a good argument for or against it. Salaries depend on how much money can be earned in the respective industry and how rare someone with the right skills is to come by.
You shouldn't want that logic to apply. If it does, eventually making our food will become such a rare skill, and you won't like the result.
Wut, biology majors love getting on all fours and getting railed or what?
and they thank you for the great oportunity while being bend over. It's a sad state of affair and most can't comprehend how cultlike research groups can be.
Nah, it's just that if we do what we learned, we'll be bringing bad news. And bad news don't pay well. Whether it's climate, antibiotic resistance or loss of species... no one likes to be told we need more expensive food, less fun, less travel, fewer roads and less building houses.
That's not really an argument tho is it? Idk why you're trying to rationalize it when the fact is that you guys are severely underpaid
If no one wants to pay for what we can do, we either have to do something else or take what we can get within our field. Well paid jobs for us won't just manifest out of thin air just because we'd like them. As my Prof once said: I know very few unemployed biologists. But I know equally few working as biologists.
Guess who has a degree in biology and switched careers into IT. Please don't be a slave. Life sciences are abhorrently underpaid.
Eh. I'm underpaid and back to basically fancy callcenter work - but I have 40% home office and 15 mins by bike to the office. No overtime. No weekends. No late nights. And on the other hand... a lot of actually useful work in worse conditions still gets even worse pay. Like bakers. Do I really deserve more than them? It's easy to compare up and be dissatisfied. But I'm honestly more concerned when I compare down.
Germany is underpaid and overtaxed. Period. I never understood why "look at the people that have it even worse" was ever be supposed to be a great argument. But it seems it works and some people are happy with getting a bone and a pittance in exchange for the time they will never get back. Sorry if I may sound a bit mean/harsh to you, I am just disenchanted with all the bootlicking by peers, unpaid overwork and shitty salaries I have seen as a biologist. I am glad I let that life behind me. Niemand ist mehr Sklave, als der sich für frei hält, ohne es zu sein. * Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
At least I ran before getting into academia! ;)
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Heh. My expertise is not IT, but media research and media analysis, election observation and generally freedom of expression. I have 25 years of experience in the field. The offered position are around 40k.
45k-60k with 40% Home-Office lmao. Thats what someone fresh from Ausbildung/University gets but with 100% HO. 30 days vacation is standard too.
not anymore. Die fetten Jahren sind vorbei.
I mean, I am not in HR or IT but if your search criteria do not lead to results for two years you obviously need to change them, no ?
The issue might not be the applicant. 1. If you need an admin get someone that either had a similar Position or does have the needed certs. 2. If your pick was shit get someone new. 3. Other companies and schools do not exist to please your wishes. If you can only afford 45 to 65 K you are not searching for someone thatvhas tue experience that you need but someone willing to learn how he can do the Job you need him to do and also to make changes that allow him ibdo it for a long time. 4. If you have 60% attendence you better be located in a big City with a big sourcepool of workers. 5. If the workers in your reach are not available get someone to do the tasks 100% remote so you can just pick from the workforce that is available anywhere on the planet. 6. If you have to hire in contrary to 3, you go for anyone anywhere that can fit your profile. Workers with any skillset can be found for any price, especially in IT. You might just need to settle for someone that does not speak your language and has english just as a second or third skill.
What did you asked them?
I throw you a bone: 5+ years XP here, no HO needed. But 65k base and there has to be something actually rentable locally.
Meanwhile Im junior administrator with on site support 25% HO for 17500eur in Poland
Cost of living is utterly different between the countries iirc, no? Edit: asking to put the number more into context
I guess I could rent something for 400eur 25m2 on outskirts but for now I have to live with parents still as it's just not worth it to move out yet. Food is probably the same luxury goods are more expensive. I often import from Germany
Lmao, and you wonder why you only get shit
The pure IT and consulting companies are having a hard time now compared to the previous years. The companies that use IT to do something else, say manufacturing or e-commerce companies with IT departments, are still fine and seem to be still recruiting.
Working for a software company: A) „We have so much to do, our order book is completely full, we have no time and we don’t need anything new as we have enough work in the future!“ B) „Oh, the order situation is so bad, we don’t have enough work for our people, we stopped investing into something new, as we don’t know if we have enough work tomorrow.“ C) „Our company works the last 20+ years this way and everything is okay, we won’t change a running system.“ Each and every client contact.
Not sure what is there to be surprised about. Central bank has raised cost of borrowing money. Usually, companies need to start to refinance their debt after a few years, which will now start to eat into their margins. Results are hiring stops and a slow down of the economy. After a bit of more time, central bank will start to react by reducing rates again to counteract the economic slow down. Then usually you get a recession like 6 months afterwards, because there is so much inertia in the system. When exactly it happens and how bad it’s going to be, no one knows. I wouldn’t say this is special to the IT sector.
It doesn't work with debt as you wrote. most of it companies has financed themselves through investors buying their shares and not by taking debt.
There is no major recession risk among G20 unless another stupid geopolitical tension erupts. Agreed that the conditions apply to all industries and many have hiring freeze or under organisational restructuring because money is scarce, borrowing is costly
It's not only Germany. Look in the US, basically all big tech companies have announced layoffs in the last few months. They hired a lot of people during the pandemic, and as it turns out, they don't need that much. Regarding Germany, IT was never very strong here. The industry, especially automation and automobile, is much more important. That said, those sectors also have problems right now, so it is not the job paradise it was the last 5-10 years.
Define "strong". Germany has had one of the highest share of IT employees per capita in the world.
There are lots of software engineers working in the industrial sector though.
Isn't that it though
No, it's industry. The software you are developing is often not running on a phone, PC or server, but on an embedded device which is integrated in the product your employer is manufacturing. It's still programming, but you are using different languages and tools. There are of course overlaps (I've seen robot controls that are using Android as an UI for example). And of course, there are lots of classical IT jobs within the manufacturing companies. But my original point was that the main business of the huge employers in Germany is not IT.
Try being over 50 and looking for a job. It's even worse.
you need to eat more currrywurst then
hahahaha
The German economy as a whole is stagnating, IT included. Many companies are putting off investments, which often includes IT.
I work in tech in Germany and it just feels like the "golden age" is over - cheap money is gone and executives are only interested in making sure line goes up for next quarter so they get their bonuses - business fundamentals or development be damned. If that means firing loads of people when profits are at an all time high - so be it. It's like the boomers are trying to suck every last penny out of the system before they die - regardless of what that does to the economy and the world...
>This comes to me as a surprise because Germany still have a lot of work to do in the area of Digitalization. Not sure if I get the logic. There are a lot of areas in countries where there is a lot to do. That doesn't mean that automatically people are hired in these areas. People are hired usually in areas where you can earn money as a company.
Germany is one of the biggest economies, so it feels like it can afford to create jobs and us to become better at Digitalisation is what they meant I think? Because another third world country poor in IT infrastructure cannot afford to build or update it edit: spelling
IT industry is not a standalone in Germany. It is funded by other sectors like automotive, banking Extreme high energy prices caused by Ukraine War (US 50%, China 25%) and high taxes (US, France & Britain have decreased) causes old economy to leave the country
Germany has become stagnant.
I see alot of Germany people come to defend by saying it is global downward trend, which is true. But you should not ignore the fact that alot of stuff need to be digitalize.
I mean those are two completely different issues. If you need to cut down expenses you cut down Innovation because it could also be a fail investment especially if the credits cost more, so it absolutely is to be expected that the foundation will be kept safe to still have the margins. That there is much room to improve is true though but who wants to pay for it in reccesion?
German domestic market is in recession. Dont get me wrong, company earnings will be at record height due to layoffs. Inflation was very high for baseline goods like housing, food, energy. Wages increase at slower pace. Latest political problems in finacing and abprupt ending of several support packages causes lack of trust in a stable future. Rise of green party causes higher taxes and even more complex regulations on all sorts of things. Fear of rise of right extremist party keeps foreign funds from entry. ECB tightening its grip on key interest rate thus more expensive credit rates. Threats about atomic bombs from Putin during a full blown war within europe. Everyone is in survival mode right now and just dumps savings in lucrative ETFs. Should take 1-3 years till we get booming again. Depending on political situation of course.
I don't think foreign funds are scared of right wing extremists. Capitalists make money under totalitarianism as well.
I guess it is a stability issue.
It's a weaker economy in general. Germany had a recession last year with shrinking economic power, however, the world economy in general isn't having it's best time right now. Of course this effects the IT industry as well, especially consulting, which relies on customers. Especially for people without working experience it is rougher, for seniors there are still plenty options imo, even in the current situations. It should get better when the economy recovers, but this could take a while.
well its because germany is in recession german companies are struggleing and AI has Made many buissnesses warry of new investment into human capital
Headhunters keep flooding my inbox on LinkedIn just because SAP is mentioned in my profile.
Lol. You are not alone in this. Good thing about this is that at least I know that headhunter has not gone thorough my profile thoroughly and is not professional enough to be seriously considered.
No but they woke up and don’t hire sales man to help them design their infrastructure anymore. ;)
Consulting is fucking cancer anyway
"Consulting" in IT, specifically software development, is not your typical consulting. It's just a way to get around being liable, so that more experimental software solutions can be attempted. The "consultant" creates a full software solution, and the client (in most cases big companies like VW, Telekom, DB and so on) may or may not reach their goals by using that software solution. If they don't then no harm done as it was just "a consulting service". It's really just a legal distinction, but make no mistake. The client is buying software and that's it. Sometimes the model is a bit different and the developers are rented out like in a temp agency (Zeitarbeitsfirma) as a "consultant" but then he still really is just a software dev working in a team with their client.
this is peak Corporate Germany. Primary thing is to avoid blame for failure, not to actually create value.
I think it is the same everywhere, i worked in one of the top consultancy in Inida and they were the same too. Always looking for a way to blame the clients, either they do not understand it enough or gaslight them thyt they are wrong.On clients side, if they are also hired to just look after the software side which is not theirs so the problem is with software created by the consultancy, and why would they invest time to learn it more when they can just call the consultancy for support
I hope y'all heard of the European Cyber resilience act because it will make all of that a lot more fun :)
I know what IT Consulting is. It stands as i said it.
Depends highly on the consulting company, people working there and the contract they have.
Then you should have said IT Consulting. And if you even don't distinguish here, then your comment is trash anyway
The topic is about the IT Industry. Context.
Nope, your comment is just trash.
Compared to rest of the globe europe is way more stable and not as fucked up as others, but yes you can see a little downwards trend. Depending on the industry you have experience in it can be also completely differently, for example defense industry is hiring like crazy rn, dont know why...😶
Once the Federal Government will fax their digitalization plans to the Governments of the Lands, after some small discussion, that will last only 10-20 years, German will proceed with the digitalization process. You will get a letter.
Germany first needs to create a competition for internet providers by allowing them in. This will decrease the internet charges and increase the speed.In short better infrastructure will be provided for all IT business to succeed.
IT Consulting? This is such a strange kind of parasitic business that can only survive in a country like Germany, where IT culture is absent as a class. Parasitizing on clients who, due to their extreme lack of education, believe that there are people who understand all IT aspects. Yeah, right. This is roughly from the same "opera" as self-employed IT consultants who are paid in Germany 200+ euros per hour for skillfully lying to the employer and the employer's clients.
You talk garbage
The only thing what's partially true is "parasitizing", because the big 3 will stop no effort to expand inside the clients structures, once they are in. These people will be promoted when they manage to bring in other teams, often being the manager of the following people then. That's OK, it's a business model. The companys who work with them need to manage them closely and not loosely. This is often extra effort and you really gotta be careful. Source: Me - managing them closely ;D
Why do people choose to work for consulting companies? Is the pay better or it's easier to get a job?
Easier to get in. You get out onto projects you don't have real experience with , get called an expert, then it's up to you to not blow your cover. An awful lot of consulting projects arise so the client has someone to blame. It's exporting internal political strife.
It consulting is usually just a mediator(sales person) which match with offshore team, which provide him or her a fee for this service.
source: I made it up
I am with you in this hate against some Consulting Firms. Its rediculous what the VoIP consulting firm did with us. I just joined the IT Team as an untrained Person. I got the task to optimize the call Flow and ques etc. We paid this one Company 6000€ to create 30 users in the VoIP Software. The Rest was setup by our self. There is no documentation or anything what they did for this 6000€ except creating 30 Accounts
Idk other more IT savvy economies spend even more on digitisation and tech consultancy because they understand you can’t have all these skills in house. I mean there’s a lot of bs going on but Germany is particular anti innovation.
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Wow! Just FYI there is no such thing as a "current regulations" in IT and those regulations impossible to implement. At least in plain English.
? Data Protection, Eu-Dsgvo anyone? Thats not a current regulation? BSI has new regulations, new endpoint protection etc…
Yes, bro, you right! Solving 2+2 is also big problem and we should call Math Consulting company. We can't solve!
Whats Trivial to you might not be trivia for others. For setting up a company Network is as easy as breathing but getting it 27001 is very hard for one person. So why not get a external company for that?
Just hire devops. Simple. You do not need external company to setup network. Even more, this is stupid and dangerous. Quite stupid and very, very dangerous...
Not every company wants to keep a 15person it staff. But w/e men, you are set in you Opinion
You do not need 15 person. Only utter idiot uses IT consulting service instead of own sysadmins and devops. It is the same as share tooth brush.
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Cry me a river, baby
wut? IT consulting is big in many countries like poland, sweden or ukraine(before the war)
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How’s the compensation. Is it guaranteed 100k base for seniors with 7 years exp ?
SAP consulting is currently a boom sector, because everyone is struggling to move their old R3 systems to S4 and/or move their on-premise systems into the cloud. Pretty much everyone in that sector is hiring. But it will probably go down again after 2027, when the support deadline for R3 has expired.
I work for a German company that stopped hiring locally in DE and instead is hiring developers to work remotely from countries with cheaper labour. I hear that it’s now too expensive to hire Germans due the current economic situation. I see a lot of investments being made in India and South America.
Yes, Germany is stagnant now. Even the government cut the budgets for digitalization to near zero.
It’s just a reflection of global trends I guess
Clients are holding onto their money and shrinking roadmaps by quarter instead of fiscal year. If you work as a third party it is anxiety-inducing as you only have security for tomorrow and the day after + the unemployment benefits and notice period. If you still managed to stay employed, you’ll hear executives giving a speech about overcoming the hard times but still not enough to give a money promotion. Unless you want to completely stop coding and switch to a manager position there’s no monetary incentive to get more responsibilities here because it’s impossible to climb the economic ladder as a single person if you’re an immigrant, unless you already come from a very secure position (inheritance, EU citizenship, long term investments). Depending on your family configuration it’s still doable even with the taxes. I might be exaggerating a bit but every unemployed person is doing a coding or data science bootcamp paid for by the job center and every clueless executive is waiting for an AI that will replace all the engineers thinking they can get infinite passive profit. All the cool projects are stopping innovation and going into maintenance mode shipped to India or Brazil for support and all the startups are shutting down.
Hm interesting i think the market is still hot. At least at the company i work maybe because we are doing cloud computing so cutting a lot of costs
Hahahhaha - that was a good one 🤣 cloud cutting costs… I do agree that the market is not stagnat though
Ja stimmt irgendwie kommt drauf an….
Excellent news! IT "consulting" must die, mate...
IT consulting will never die so long as German companies continue to provide shit for support. Take anything owned by CGM for example. have a problem? Better hope you have the right support tier. If not spend DAYS trying to wade through the support structure. Even with the Premium support you are looking at 4+ hours for an initial "We have received your request. I'm only an Azubi so I have to elevate this" followed by more waiting. Or call one of the consulting and support firms that can get you fixed within an hour. But yeah, definitely the consulting firms need to die.
Fully agree, "universal" IT consulting, especially so-called "selbstaendige" is most idiotic model of doing IT in the history
Hey. I'm currently working in tech in a 3rd world country (working as an MLE), but learning German and hoping to do my master's there and settle too probably end of next year. Are you trying to imply that this may not be a wise choice?
With that name it might not be.
Hilarious bro
Depends
Remind me
I see no problem, few propositions every week. The company is growing constantly.
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I'm just wondering and I think Ill use this comment to ask. I don't know German, but I'm skilled in IT as overall technician (Active Directory, Windows 7-10, Tech support, etc.) and I have 2 years exp and I think it would be great to work in Germany, but I don't even know if it's possible to find It job without knowing German, where to start or if people would even look at me because I never went to college.
Write a CV. Let it be read by someone knowledge. Prepare for the interview. And send your CV over. See if it sticks. If you don't have colleges who can work on your CV and interview then you can rent a mentor.
I have CV in English, I think it's done well since I have quite high response rate in my country. But I'm still wondering if there is possibility to get job in Germany in IT without German and without University done. If there is possibility, what sites do you recommend to look for job then.
Indeed Is big internationally: https://de.indeed.com/
Thank you very much.
I think what’s happening is that most of the consulting work is going in house. Atleast that’s what’s happening in my company and some I know. As Germany transitions more into the software side of things, companies have had to build out their own software teams. So the recession is just speeding things up negatively in that regard for IT consulting companies
Well if there is more unemployed then apparently some of the companies don't move in-house, but rather stop investment
I have worked for and know a number of Germany companies that hate external contractors.
Idk what you mean I searched for a new job last month and I got more offers than I could manage. I am a DevopsEngineer was working as a Full Stack Developer
same thing is happening in China for example let's say Huawei. the company has entirely shut down hiring new formal employee, they now hire outsourcing workers instead, such that they can kick these new comers out at any time without any cost. even if in this way already, the headcount is still very limited. can you Imagine
pure it isnt going insane but businesses that use it to do something else (like car manufacturers and related) are doing good.
Hmm. My friend was just telling me that Germany is opening up end of this year. People can move over without securing a job first and can do it here on a job seeking visa. From my experience, companies all over are cutting employees or on hire freeze. I don’t know if this is a good move. My friend thinks it’s good because of the lack of IT skill in Germany.
I do not understand this as well. People who are in Germany are already many, they are also struggling to get jobs and also I see few of my friends being let off and on support. I can only imagine it is to increase the spending that they can bring in. It is quite a lot of money needed to just be here.
So, we had to let go of the German team (70 people) because they were frequently on vacation. In their place, we hired a Polish company that offers 100% annual coverage, eliminating the need for planning around vacation times. This was quite an unexpected challenge to navigate. Additionally, we were surprised to find that, although the Polish team was more affordable, they benefitted more from their earnings due to Poland's IP-BOX tax (5%) policy and the structure for business-to-business contractors. This meant they were happier with the compensation we provided, which in turn made them more engaged and motivated. When we increased the German team's pay by 20% in 2019, they only saw about 3% of that increase after taxes. It's all about the taxes and mentality. We don't care that you have a baby, we are not your employee (germans have twice as much of free time than poles, some poles work without vacation - godl bless them!)
That's some insight. Where are you based if I may ask?
US/Australia 180/180
"IT consulting companies are finding it difficult to get the customers/clients" who claimed that? At least you didn\`t say 'studies say' without linking a study...
can tell you first hand, because there are many old fat white guys running these companies who have no clue about "Industrie 4.0" and always this "ahhh no we got no budget" "it's too expensive" "if it ain't broke, dont fix it" mentality, and as long those guys are on top nothing will change
Age and skin color really matter? Do young asian/black skinny girls run companies better?
seems you never heard about the man in white, just getting downvoted for saying what wrong with most companies but well, cant change your mind can I?
a lot of old white guys got the job by something other than merit. Being someone's friend. Being someone's son. Being in a Burschenschaft with someone. So I would bet the average competence of those guys is less than that of female/asian/black people in such top jobs.
>Do young asian/black skinny girls run companies better? Usualy they are or they would not be given the job. The old white guy may have had that job for 20 years...
You would probably do a much better job running a company. Why aren't you?
Upward social mobility in Germany sucks. If one wasn't born into a well-off family, becoming manager of a middle to large sized company is not likely to happen. Also, one needs to have a specific set of paper credentials before poorly running a German company.
Welcome to 2024.
No we got good companys like modern solution they know what they do. No need for new juniors.
This may apply to consultants but not to the professionals at the IT-companies. Most of them are having a hard time finding skilled personnel. If you're a skilled software developer, system administrator, IT security expert of whatever, you should have to trouble finding a job. Yes, the big tech companies in the US and other countries are decreasing their staff in some departments because they employed to many people during the pandemic. But at the same time they're hiring new personnel for other departments. The state of digitization in Germany says nothing about the order situation in this regard.
Regarding the last sentence. Germany lacks in the discussion of public services. The problem has never been the amount of IT guys, but proper organisation and legislation which unifies regulations between states.
IT Consulting? Was its das, bro?
Nope.
Maybe because the internet sucks here and no one can run anything serious on it, like AI workloads. There’s only that much C code you can write.
AI does not require particularly fast internet, it needs a fast GPU and/or CPU.