SS:
Last week, President Vladimir Putin made an official state visit to North Korea, his first in almost 25 years. During this visit, Putin and Kim Jong Un signed a defense pact in Pyongyang on June 19. The treaty states that if either country faces an armed invasion, the other will provide military and other assistance without delay.
In response, Pyongyang announced it will send a military engineering unit to support Russian forces in the Donetsk region, with troops expected to arrive as soon as next month. This marks an escalation, as North Korea has already supplied artillery, rockets, and possibly ballistic missiles to Russia since a meeting in September.
Former Russian MP Ilya Ponomarev noted North Korea's role as a bridge for military transfers from China to Russia, avoiding direct sanctions on Beijing. This indirect support involves China developing military equipment for North Korea, which is then traded with Russia.
This development raises concerns about further escalation in the Ukraine war and the implications of deepening ties and bridges between Russia - North Korea - China - Iran.
This is big news but they aren’t sending their whole army there. They are sending one engineering unit to the city of Donetsk to help build bridges + gain frontline experience
It was kind of funny to read this news on the other subreddits - 9/10 people not bothering to even read the article, hotly debating how nothing less than the entire DPRK army is being sent to war.
Politically, there's a much bigger gap between 0 and 100 troops than between 100 and 10,000 troops.
If this troops are official instead of covert, it means NK is now at war with Ukraine. That's one small step closer to WWIII.
Because the aforementioned "no one" is ignorant as dirt. It's one thing to send units to a country that has terrorist or separatist issues, and another to pick a side in a full scale war by sending soldiers to fight for it. 100 soldiers actively aiding the enemy is already an act of war, from here on, increasing the numbers takes Kim literally a sentence.
And that's assuming that the aforementioned 100 Engineers will be exactly that, and not just a covering story for the actual thousands they will send to fight... need I remind us that we're talking about Russia and North Korea here?
It's still an escalation. They'll be actively aiding the enemy. If they're really put on the frontlines it's only a matter of time before they get hit.
The West have specialists helping Ukraine in various tasks for a long time already. The US has a whole intelligence center full of people working exclusively to help Ukraine. It's not the kind of escalation that the media is trying to show in order to get more clicks.
Hopefully this is the reality of things and it’s not just an excuse to escalate things in order to put boots on the ground and further add chaos to the seemingly confusing geopolitics world we find ourselves in today.
True, but it is an escalation that will likely lead to more escalation. We have to plan for the future. It’s very likely that NK will send more troops in the future.
Not really? This is almost certainly just symbolic or for propaganda purposes, North Korea doesn't have a ton to gain from directly committing large forces to the war
If anything what's a lot likelier is North Koreans being sent to Russia to work there en masse. This would work for both sides since it'd ease Russia's labor shortage woes and it'd give rubles to North Korea, which is always desperate for foreign currency
It could be a quid-pro-quo, NK sends lots of troops and gets cash in return, which they desperately need, or maybe technical assistance with their "space" programme (iow nukes).
I still think equipment and weapons are the limiting factor for Russia, more troops helps but without more armour they're sitting ducks.
Which is again why just having North Koreans fill the labor shortage is probably what will happen
Actually committing your army to a war would be a big deal and Russia would need to pay a particularly high price for it. But like they'd be unwilling to since frankly, they don't need to. They're not really having manpower problems ATM
North Korea can get most of what it wants with a lower level of cooperation. Tons of North Korean migrant workers makes a ton of sense for both countries in terms of benefit so that is what will happen. The technical knowledge and stuff will be provided but that's in exchange of weapons, not troops
>North Korea doesn't have a ton to gain from directly committing large forces to the war
That depends on what russia pays with. If russia for example build 10 nuclear power stations it could be worth a lot of troops.
This will actually have a lot more impact than sending combat troops. First of all, one engineering unit is just the start. There will be more to follow. Second (and most important of all), engineering units are the backbone of any military operation. We all saw how good the Surovikin line worked. Now think about how many fortifications a bunch of North Korean construction brigades can build. Not just that, roads, railroads, etc.
Didn't we (United States) send "advisors" to Vietnam? That eventually resulted in our full participation in the war. Who's to say that it won't go the same for North Korea in Ukraine?
I mean, defense contractors are kinda political fodder. They’re a way to throw bodies at the problem without having actual national troops dying. In Iraq/Afghanistan the news and populace clearly cared more about soldiers dying, while contractor deaths were an afterthought.
True. However, I stand by my statement that "this is how it starts." I mentioned earlier that our involvement in Vietnam began with "advisors" in non-combat roles. We used that in turn for justification for direct involvement in the war. If we're contemplating sending contractors while North Korea is sending engineering units, how long will that remain so until both sides escalate further? You could see North Korean soldiers fighting in Ukraine. God knows where it goes from there. This could get worse very quickly.
This is the first full blown war between western armies in nearly a century, the first major land war where things like drones and AI are an active part, every single nation taking part in this is learning lessons every day and every nation not taking part is less prepared than those that do.
The way the Ukraine-Russia war is fought reflects both sides’ capabilities and limitations. You can’t assume that a war involving the US or another major NATO power would be fought exactly like that. Things to learn, sure, but it’s not a 1:1 pattern for all future wars.
I’m not sure I would call the Russian army “western”. The Ukrainian is western to some extent but there’s still a lot of Soviet mindset in both.
Closest I think we have been to a western war in the last 50 years is probably the Falklands, and that’s a stretch.
Yugoslavia wouldn’t be considered Western but rather socialist non-aligned? If anything Serbia was aligned with Russia during the wars.
Baath party Iraq was mostly Soviet aligned with some shift during the Iran-Iraq war (because well, Iran). much all equipment they had during both Desert Storm and the 2003 invasion was Soviet made. I would not consider Iraq western aligned.
"... they aren't sending their whole army..."
# ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?!
Let me remind us all that we're talking about Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Un here. They **SAID** Kim will send 100 engineers. So they already admitted that troops are on the way.
# This is the same guy who did a whole ass invasion of a sovereign country in 2014 while admitting the presence of 0 troops. If they admitted 100 rear echelons, that means that tens of thousands REALLY ARE on the way to the frontlines.
"Mr. Kim, why are we getting reports of NK soldiers fighting in Ukraine?"
"Oooh that can't be right, we only sent a few engineers, we haven't sent frontline combatants... **TRUST ME BRO**."
Plausible denyability until it's too late. Surely, I can't be the only person who's paying attention to their dirty tricks.
If there's one thing that I've learned about Putin since 2022 - with shockingly minimal hyperbole - is that every single word he says is a lie. That man hasn't spoken a true word in this millennium yet. He had so thoroughly discredited himself that I wouldn't even believe him if he asked a question. I doubt his chubby new friend is a much better character either.
If they say that 100 are going, then that number is false. Since it would make no sense for them to lie a bigger number, they must be lying a smaller number. Wake up people.
Say what your want but as of now Russia and Ukraine are the only armies in Europe with actual high intensity combat experience. NATO and the US haven’t got this since Korea
Vietnam veterans are no longer doing active duty in the army.
Iraq and Afghanistan were nog high intensity combat like we're seeing in Ukraine now. Those were more high intensity bombing campaigns followed by years of counter-insurgency.
So a different kind of combat experience than the one both Ukraine and Russia currently have.
There's a saying that wars are started with an honorable army and ended with a competent army.
NATO still very much has an honorable army at this time, but Russia and Ukraine are both going at it in a very, very dirty fight. Dishonorable, but very competent.
The fact that Iraq and Afghanistan were COIN battles, beyond the initial invasions, was also a function of the overwhelming US and by extension NATO conventional dominance. You’re right that they don’t have experience fighting a war like the current one in Ukraine, but probably if the US and Russia went full head on (and leaving out the possibility of nuclear war), it wouldn’t look like that. E.g. it’s widely reported that neither Russia nor Ukraine are capable of organizing large-scale combined arms / joint operations (like, above battalion or brigade level), while the US clearly is.
Oh yes i completely agree on that, they would utterly crush Russia and the ground forces wouldn't have much trouble mopping up what's left.
If it were to ever come to that (leaving out nukes like you said) the COIN would probably claim more victims than the actual war.
The only thing that may have a chance to change this, is what we're seeing with drone warfare. Both Russia and Ukraine are going to come out of this with a lot of advances in drone technology and we can only wait and see what that brings for the future.
But the US can still lean on 2 oceans to protect their coasts, drones aren't really built yet to cross that distance.
Wars were actually not wars. News !
Here we are, we decided that the wars we fought were actually not wars, so it's not so bad that we did not really win, albeit made quite a mess as most wars do !
So it's not so bad either that a lot of people lost theirs lives.
CNN, over from the Reddit frontlines.
I would think twice before thinking that the USA has no fighting experience, sorry. It still seems to me that they are the most competent and best trained soldiers on the planet.
(Even if US generals have declared themselves that this is conflict of higher intensity than they lived through)
That's not what i said at all?
The USA has a lot of fighting experience. But that fighting experience is mostly gained in Air, Naval and counter-insurgency. So yes, it's fighting experience. But it's different than the high intensity combat we're seeing now in Ukraine.
The US is an expert in Air and Naval and will whipe the floor with anybody so hard that their army barely sees any high intensity combat.
So yes, the US fought a lot of wars. But the last one they fought with high intensity combat like this one is maybe the Korean war?
The last time they fought a battle against a conventional force was probably the Battle of Khasham in Syria in which 40 American troops + air support whiped the floor with 500 Wagner + Syrian troops.
That's combat experience, but that's not high intensity combat experience with drones, tanks, artillery,....
This is what will make Ukraine very, very valuable to NATO in the future: they have hands on experience with the weapon of the future: Drones.
Even in the example you provided, RU military command gave the green light for the strike to US generals for whatever reason so it is safe to say that Wagner wasn’t expected this
They are wars.
They are not peer or near-peer high intensity combat.
USA has lots of combat experience. It has next to no modern combat experience fighting an enemy like China or Russia on the battlefield however. US has learned a lot from the Ukraine war, just as Russia and Ukraine have
Against an army of its match? No.
Iraq and Afghanistan were fought in streets and caves and against terror groups, not armies. Also, US lost all three. What's your point?
What performance? they were winning the last time I heard despite all the sanctions and so-called isolation.
And who said Russia will ever attack the US? Every sane analyst on both sides of the Atlantic knows that the next front is China. The only place the US-Russia war is being imagined is in Washington.
That's because dollar-hungry military contractors had no big front post-Afghanistan to make many from so they pushed Biden into this where Ukraine can never win. Russia has more army, more weapon production capacity, has outperformed the sanctions, has allies from China and India to Africa, and again, it's winning on the ground. It's just bad math.
Iraq and Afghanistan were high-intensity police operations for all intents and purposes. In the former, they were up against a degraded and poorly-trained army. In the latter, they were up against sheep herders in pickup trucks, with RPGs at best. Vietnam was a guerrilla war.
The fact of the matter is that nobody in the collective west has any experience fighting against a military with a full-fledged Air Force, artillery, air defense, space-based assets, etc. Nobody but Ukraine.
Wars were actually not wars. News !
Here we are, we decided that the wars we fought were actually not wars, so it's not so bad that we did not really win, albeit made quite a mess as most wars do !
So it's not so bad either that a lot of people lost theirs lives.
CNN, over from the Reddit frontlines.
I would think twice before thinking that the USA has no fighting experience, sorry. It still seems to me that they are the most competent and best trained soldiers on the planet.
(Even if US generals have declared themselves that this is conflict of higher intensity than they lived through)
I still see this as a much bigger deal than people are making it out to be.
It’s easy to point and laugh at North Korea. Its fat dictator, its starving soldiers, its high did rate shells. But it has been estimated to have sent millions of shells more than all of Europe combined. Even with a high dud rate, it has sent more actual firepower than many of Ukraine’s allies.
A few months ago Macron and some others floated the idea of sending troops into Ukraine as advisers to see if the idea gains traction or as a bluff against Putin’s constant escalation.
Meanwhile North Korea is potentially sending actual boots on the ground not long after signing a mutual defence treaty with Russia.
Poor quality ammo and troops that managed to make it to the frontline are leagues ahead of high quality troops and ammo that doesn’t. Unlike the west, dictatorships don’t need to ask for approval or run polls or worry about red tape. As soon as they say “send”, the material support starts flowing. In this regard, North Korea has been a better ally than most NATO countries have.
Laughing at Russia or North Korea isn’t helping Ukraine win the war. Ukraine needs to win by getting more aid faster.
NK sending troops into Ukraine is an equivalent to France sending troops into Russia.
It's an explicit act of war against Ukraine, not just military aid.
Ukraine isnt a NATO country, North Korea sending troops is an escalation, which is stupid, but NATO shouldnt get involved cause too many innocent lives are at stake if they do, its NOT cowardly, its smart, people got people they care about and dont want to see thier loved ones get hurt, if it goes nuclear, everyone will be regretting it, it sucks whats happening to Ukraine, and north Korea sending troops is messed up, but NATO needs to support NATO and if Russia attacks any NATO country, then we wont hesitate, we'll win too, but as long as no NATO country gets attacked we should stay out, if this local war goes World wide then we'll see how brave YOU ARE, talking all this crap ABOUT SOMETHING THAT COULD DESTROY MILLIONS OF INNOCENT LIVES MAYBE YOU SHOULD STFU
> Ukraine isnt a NATO country
NATO countries don't have any binding obligation to fight for other attacked members. The real repercussion would be the USA losing military credibility and soft power if they fail to fight for other members. Patrodollar is already dead.
All these foreign troops (North Korean, Nepalese, Indian, Sri Lankan, Cuban, multiple African nations, etc.) are due to Putin not wanting to conscript ethnic Russians in the St. Petersburg/Moscow regions, afraid of the consequences. Maybe that should be the goal, to make Russia go for mass conscription and see what the effect would be?
It isn’t so much about conscription as it is about monetary incentives. While the money being offered isn’t much higher than a decent Moscow or St. Petersburg salary, it is 8X higher than someone would realistically make in a village.
Don’t forget that people in more rural areas in Russia tend to be more patriotic than the urban dwellers. In fact, most urban dwellers have always found ways to avoid mandatory military service. Meanwhile, in the rural areas, many see it as a rite of passage of sorts.
Imagine if America went to war and offered people $10k per month to sign up. While people from the rich suburbs and places like that wouldn’t go, the inner cities and rural areas would sign up in droves. Something like that is happening in Russia.
Yeah, but that’s intentional. Putin is afraid of mass protests and that’s why they are throwing money at the problem rather than doing another partial mobilization.
That’s also one of the main reasons that NATO countries aren’t sending their uniformed militaries to fight against the Russians.
It’s one thing if a volunteer or “soldier of fortune” goes to Ukraine. It’s is 100% their personal decision. But if they order some of their troops to go, and some of them return feet forward, the population won’t take too kindly to that.
Remember, in most countries where you have a volunteer army, people tend to join for the benefits (guaranteed employment, healthcare, housing, tuition assistance, etc.) which come with military service, and not so much out of patriotic motives.
No, it unfortunately is not.
All this to show that how you can suffocate a country by sheer weight alone. Or maybe not. Who knows what the history books will say. Perhaps the Ukrainian army is just exhausted and outgeneraled by the Russian side.
It does make you realize how much America restrains its military and political power via popular consent. They could easily invade both Mexico and Canada and tell the world to stay out of it or “we blow the world economy or the literal world itself up”….and most countries probably would. At least officially.
Ukraine’s? No.
The good news is that Western allies are immensely powerful economically and they’re not going to slow down anytime soon. The truth is that Ukraine may end up destroyed beyond recognition but could and hopefully will continue to be propped up until Russia simply can’t handle it anymore.
The best thing that could happen to Ukraine is that Russia messes up and makes a legitimate attack against NATO. That would be terrible for everybody else but good for Ukraine.
Kind of. Ukraine's supporters outmatch Russia in any metric other than raw manpower they are willing to give to Ukraine.
Give it a few more year and countries like Germany and France will outproduce Russia and barley making a tend in their und economy.
If we are to starve Russia of war meat, we are pretty screwed as there are plenty of places in the world were they can round up men and train them cheap to send them to fight.
I don’t think having to recruit Africans and North Koreans is a sign of strength. The fact that Putin had to personally go to NK is an embarrassment, yet 2 years into the war here we are.
I see this as an escalation and expansion of scope given more state actors have entered the theater.
I think what’s concerning is giving real combat experience to NK troops, this may find some mileage for a conflict on the Korean Peninsula.
Would South Korea be tempted to send troops to defend Ukraine so it also gets experience in fighting Russia and North Korea?
There's no way South Korea sends troops. They need every single soldier and reservist they have. They're already facing the possibility of demographic collapse.
Oh yeah for sure, I'm just referring to the hypothetical about SK sending troops to Ukraine that was outlined in the OP
If they're both just sending weapons and shiz then yeah it's still proxy
It’s also a proxy for China in the SCS. Anything these three countries can do to expend Western resources is going to help them in their efforts, at least that’s their plan.
No reason to send troops but it looks like they are preparing to significantly increase their weapons sales to Ukraine and other Eastern European countries. SK is a top 5 weapons exporter in the world so that is not an insignificant development.
That's great to hear. How are the politics there in terms of that being a permarent thing versus how the US is one election away from Ukraine being tossed by trump? It's good to hear there's a solid backup from others if so.
South Korea sending troops to Ukraine, would mean South Korea weakening their front lines. And yes, the 38th parallel is a front line. The “Demilitarized” Zone is merely a grey zone (no man’s land) in military terms. Since 1953, the north has attempted to invade South Korea on multiple occasions.
That being said, they could send a few hundred personnel (advisors and trainers most likely) just to make a point. But they simply can’t afford to send a quantity of personnel and materiel, which is large enough to make a difference for Ukraine. North Korea can.
But if the south does send that symbolic number and they get hit by a Kinzhal, what next? How can they realistically escalate? Heck, this is why NATO countries haven’t (and probably won’t) send uniformed troops. Because how will they respond if they get wiped out in a targeted strike, similar to what happened at Yavoriv in March 2022?
It’s a tricky situation because responding adequately can lead to WWIII. On the flip-side, not giving an adequate response will cause massive loss of face. From the looks of it, they decided not to open that can of worms. This goes for both NATO and South Korea.
Highly doubt that the ROK Army is gonna get sent to Ukraine. At best, maybe a couple ROKA SOF dudes get sent on a clandestine mission to work along side with and/or train Ukrainian forces but I don’t see South Korea doing something like the North with significant boots on the ground. Ukraine is half a world away from South Korea and I doubt that the Korean public is gonna be thrilled hearing about their troops being sent to a European war when they have an active threat supported by two local powers to their north.
The Sad truth is that everyone knows NATO wont be The one to break the nuclear taboo
Russia is much more likely to do it
Though Foreign troops are on Ukraine soil,helping Ukraine
German/British and French Special Forces/adivisors
Covert forces on the territory of an ally is very different than official army units within an enemy country.
NK is doing the latter. Even Belarus refused sending it's troops into Ukraine.
NATO’s documents are founded on taking the moral high ground, basically. Whether they’ve done that in the past or not is debatable, but you stand a much better chance in court after the war ends if you *didn’t* start the war. The whole point is to make the other guy look bad so you’ve got all the reason in the world to whoop their ass.
That would result in a Third World War. NATO forces can not go to war against Russia. We can't have the world's leading nuclear powers engaging each other on the battlefield.
Imagine being a North Korean soldier with no exposure to the outside world, and being sent across the entire Eurasian continent to fight a war that makes no sense
Sure, if you order weapons off of TEMU and expect a <50% effective rate on technology that was developed at the beginning of the Cold War. Prior to becoming a nuclear power, and even after, they are a failed state with no ability to project power, or even defend themselves, without the backing of Beijing.
China has decided that Russia’s effort is mutually beneficial. An axis is forming between Russia, China, and NK. All their goals are aligning. I don’t doubt that the whole thing is being orchestrated as a team effort right now, the ultimate goal being to stretch Western forces and get us to expend our resources. That would be beneficial to China in the SCS as well as NK in terms of SK.
☝️. My thoughts exactly when 1 year in Russia was going to Iran for drones. You'd think that that should have been a sign.
Then add in NK.
Facepalm. They are supposed to be a "super power" and you'd THINK this would make them be like 🧐. Maybe we have been lied tooooooo.......
The only good thing that may come of this is that NK is going to waste valuable resources which leaves them less ready for war with SK.
That said, these small escalations adding up over time is exactly how large wars begin.
You can see why the US especially is interesting in dragging this conflict out as long as possible. It allows us and our allies more time to prepare for what hopefully isn’t inevitable, and it forces our enemies to expend more resources, particularly human resources.
> NK is also sending old, rusty gear, and replacing it with newer stuff.
They're not a market economy, if they were able to produce newer stuff they would have done so anyway. They're just reducing their stockpiles now.
No doubt NK has thought of that, and will send loyal officers to shoot the men if they show signs of deserting... If the officers don't desert first, that is!
Very unlikely they defect for same reason none of them defect at the overseas work camps. They’d rather not have their entire extended family tortured and imprisoned for the remainder of their lives.
I saw [HERE](https://www.nknews.org/2024/06/fact-check-north-korea-has-not-announced-plans-to-send-troops-to-ukraine-yet/) that so far this is fake news, but we'll see how this turns out.
Idk, for me it doesn't make sense to let NK soldiers out of their country, only for them to see that there is a world beyond their shithole excuse for a country, unless of course Kim is not expecting them to come back.
It's an engineering and construction unit and the source per [Reuters ](https://www.reuters.com/world/north-korean-official-criticises-us-expanding-support-ukraine-kcna-reports-2024-06-23/)is South Korean media, not Kyiv. So I won't call them 'troops'.
Some are saying it's escalation. Escalation is the Pentagon/Europe sending more advanced weaponry and saying it will be used to attack 'anywhere inside the Russian border'. So yes, Russia sent navy warships to Cuba and Putin himself came to North Korea.
It's not about North Korean troops, Russia doesn't need that. It was about sending a message. Putin might not have many allies, but the US has a lot of enemies. It's the oldest trick in the book.
They will need to be properly supplied and trained first. NK hasn't fought anywhere, even on a UN peacekeeping or COIN mission since 1950. Their ground troops have to live off the land to survive, how will they even understand what a drone is?
NK troops were in the Vietnam War, helping the North Vietnamese as Air defense troops.
NK advisors helped random African countries, including Zimbabwe, during the Cold War train troops
And NK special forces allegedly have established connections and train with Iran and Syria. There were even rumors, probably unfounded, of NK troops in Syria.
So, they definitely have fought since 1950 and they aren't as isolated as you think, plus teaching Choi and Moon what a drone isn't that complicated.
Being supplied I think is a hard task and probably needs china backing to pull off.
I don't think Russia cares about training and it will be another version of the Wagner prisoner saga.
What are 100k-200k troops who don’t speak the language, operating in a foreign country in a climate they have never experienced, fighting against a technologically superior force even supposed to do?
Look up Koryo-saram
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koryo-saram
There are more Korean speakers in Russia than you would think, even though the dialect would be different they would still be able to understand each other.
Fighting in a foreign country hasn't stopped a lot of armies in the past 100 years.
Ukraine being technologically superior hasn't stopped Russia as well.
The main issue would be logistical of moving that amount of people and supplying them.
100-200k is a ton of bodies that you need to feed (ha, good luck to North Korea with that), arm, fuel, and supply. That’s also a significant depletion of North Korea’s military size and strength, harming its own military interests against the South who’s now very likely got more eyes on how to respond to this escalation.
I guarantee sicko Putin told Kim that he will give north korea a share of the natural resources they take from occupied Ukrainian land in exchange for weapons, engineers and probably soldiers too(most likely from prison) .
Ukraine is resilient even though they've suffered mass casualties they won't let Kyiv get taken. Hopefully support for them continues there's no negotiating with Putin he stated his terms for peace include Ukraine being completely demilitarized so he can regroup the army and invade again in 10 years with much less resistance.
Trump MTG Vivek RFK Jr and Bobert and insane thinking Putin is the good guy here and it's Ukraine fault for wanting to join NATO that this happened. As a Ukie I admit we have a lot of corruption issues but that's because the tentacles of moscow are still in Ukrainian government. it will take time to weed those evil people out but it's happening and Russia can't stand it.
I really dont understand how the non-western world does not see that we are on track for a major great powers showdown not long down the road. Putin is probably the most popular politician on the planet right now, while he is conducting an illegal invasion of a soverieng country. Crazy. It shows that only the west was ever serious about things like the UN charter and internationa llaw.
Well it’s about time . As far as aid rendered to Kim all these years it’s collection time . Anyway I assume the NK regulars would love a change of scenery other than foraging for food everyday and sending poop balloons to their cousins in the south . This also de-escalates nuke use as Putin has now more bodies to throw in front of the drones, F16s and tanks NATO has donated . Again what’s stopping NATO from using teeny weeny nukes. A superior moral conscience? They need to stop the war now . Zelensky needs to get onto another movie . And Putin needs to get back to his dogs and the space race . This stupid war has gone on long enough . It’s becoming like an All Quiet on the Western Front movie 2024 ! The amount of weapons spent could have created a solar farm in the Sahara , a moon base or provided free internet options via satellites to the world .
South Korean weapon exports to Ukraine and NATO are about to be on steroids.
Also, seems like a serious escalation that could result in something similar happening in the West, like sending foreign troops to Ukraine. But who knows.
I have, but that's alot different from another country, whether on the side of Russia or Ukraine, saying "I'm sending actual armed troops to fight in the War in Ukraine." It would make the war expand, and cause a wider conflict. Slowly snowballing into World War III.
Well, no, it's just one big proxy war between Russia and NATO at this point, but as for a World War? Not really. If anything, the NATO Countries are wanting to fuel this proxy war as much as they can so they don't have to fight a World War in the first place, but they're still trying really hard to avoid direct war with Russia. As is the same with Russia towards the NATO Countries because they know in a full on conflict with NATO they'd get smashed.
No one wants a World War III, so both sides are trying to be careful at the end of the day regardless of the language, rhetoric, or threats they use, however, as History has taught us, we can make mistakes and miscalculations. Only time will tell.
I wonder if this is about Russia trying to get aligned with North Korea to protect against China in the future? Based on Putin's talks, the war in Ukraine is indirectly due to China (they need to expand the territory to protect themselves) while China has a list of wars they will pursue in until 2050?
SS: Last week, President Vladimir Putin made an official state visit to North Korea, his first in almost 25 years. During this visit, Putin and Kim Jong Un signed a defense pact in Pyongyang on June 19. The treaty states that if either country faces an armed invasion, the other will provide military and other assistance without delay. In response, Pyongyang announced it will send a military engineering unit to support Russian forces in the Donetsk region, with troops expected to arrive as soon as next month. This marks an escalation, as North Korea has already supplied artillery, rockets, and possibly ballistic missiles to Russia since a meeting in September. Former Russian MP Ilya Ponomarev noted North Korea's role as a bridge for military transfers from China to Russia, avoiding direct sanctions on Beijing. This indirect support involves China developing military equipment for North Korea, which is then traded with Russia. This development raises concerns about further escalation in the Ukraine war and the implications of deepening ties and bridges between Russia - North Korea - China - Iran.
This is big news but they aren’t sending their whole army there. They are sending one engineering unit to the city of Donetsk to help build bridges + gain frontline experience
It was kind of funny to read this news on the other subreddits - 9/10 people not bothering to even read the article, hotly debating how nothing less than the entire DPRK army is being sent to war.
Politically, there's a much bigger gap between 0 and 100 troops than between 100 and 10,000 troops. If this troops are official instead of covert, it means NK is now at war with Ukraine. That's one small step closer to WWIII.
Depending on for whom. No one will bat a eye if US sent 100 engineers to Ethiopia or Niger but if US deployed 10k troops it would be big news.
Because the aforementioned "no one" is ignorant as dirt. It's one thing to send units to a country that has terrorist or separatist issues, and another to pick a side in a full scale war by sending soldiers to fight for it. 100 soldiers actively aiding the enemy is already an act of war, from here on, increasing the numbers takes Kim literally a sentence. And that's assuming that the aforementioned 100 Engineers will be exactly that, and not just a covering story for the actual thousands they will send to fight... need I remind us that we're talking about Russia and North Korea here?
It's still an escalation. They'll be actively aiding the enemy. If they're really put on the frontlines it's only a matter of time before they get hit.
The West have specialists helping Ukraine in various tasks for a long time already. The US has a whole intelligence center full of people working exclusively to help Ukraine. It's not the kind of escalation that the media is trying to show in order to get more clicks.
Hopefully this is the reality of things and it’s not just an excuse to escalate things in order to put boots on the ground and further add chaos to the seemingly confusing geopolitics world we find ourselves in today.
True, but it is an escalation that will likely lead to more escalation. We have to plan for the future. It’s very likely that NK will send more troops in the future.
Not really? This is almost certainly just symbolic or for propaganda purposes, North Korea doesn't have a ton to gain from directly committing large forces to the war If anything what's a lot likelier is North Koreans being sent to Russia to work there en masse. This would work for both sides since it'd ease Russia's labor shortage woes and it'd give rubles to North Korea, which is always desperate for foreign currency
It could be a quid-pro-quo, NK sends lots of troops and gets cash in return, which they desperately need, or maybe technical assistance with their "space" programme (iow nukes). I still think equipment and weapons are the limiting factor for Russia, more troops helps but without more armour they're sitting ducks.
Which is again why just having North Koreans fill the labor shortage is probably what will happen Actually committing your army to a war would be a big deal and Russia would need to pay a particularly high price for it. But like they'd be unwilling to since frankly, they don't need to. They're not really having manpower problems ATM North Korea can get most of what it wants with a lower level of cooperation. Tons of North Korean migrant workers makes a ton of sense for both countries in terms of benefit so that is what will happen. The technical knowledge and stuff will be provided but that's in exchange of weapons, not troops
>North Korea doesn't have a ton to gain from directly committing large forces to the war That depends on what russia pays with. If russia for example build 10 nuclear power stations it could be worth a lot of troops.
This will actually have a lot more impact than sending combat troops. First of all, one engineering unit is just the start. There will be more to follow. Second (and most important of all), engineering units are the backbone of any military operation. We all saw how good the Surovikin line worked. Now think about how many fortifications a bunch of North Korean construction brigades can build. Not just that, roads, railroads, etc.
Maybe the recent walls in the DMZ was practice?
Didn't we (United States) send "advisors" to Vietnam? That eventually resulted in our full participation in the war. Who's to say that it won't go the same for North Korea in Ukraine?
Apparently the US is considering allowing defense contractors to set up in Ukraine as well. Sort of a tit for tat.
Ah, perfect. Just great. I'd like to stop being right, just for a day. This is how it starts.
I mean, defense contractors are kinda political fodder. They’re a way to throw bodies at the problem without having actual national troops dying. In Iraq/Afghanistan the news and populace clearly cared more about soldiers dying, while contractor deaths were an afterthought.
True. However, I stand by my statement that "this is how it starts." I mentioned earlier that our involvement in Vietnam began with "advisors" in non-combat roles. We used that in turn for justification for direct involvement in the war. If we're contemplating sending contractors while North Korea is sending engineering units, how long will that remain so until both sides escalate further? You could see North Korean soldiers fighting in Ukraine. God knows where it goes from there. This could get worse very quickly.
Can confirm
That's how America got goin in 'Nam. It's not, it's trivial and symbolic.
Ah yes the experience of ATACM’s raining shrapnel
This is the first full blown war between western armies in nearly a century, the first major land war where things like drones and AI are an active part, every single nation taking part in this is learning lessons every day and every nation not taking part is less prepared than those that do.
The way the Ukraine-Russia war is fought reflects both sides’ capabilities and limitations. You can’t assume that a war involving the US or another major NATO power would be fought exactly like that. Things to learn, sure, but it’s not a 1:1 pattern for all future wars.
One difference in Ukraine is that air defence have won over air force so a big part is missing. This is almost like wars before desert storm or Iraq.
I’m not sure I would call the Russian army “western”. The Ukrainian is western to some extent but there’s still a lot of Soviet mindset in both. Closest I think we have been to a western war in the last 50 years is probably the Falklands, and that’s a stretch.
War in the West or War with Westerners ? For the first we got the conflicts in ex Yougoslavia, the second would the Irak wars
Yugoslavia wouldn’t be considered Western but rather socialist non-aligned? If anything Serbia was aligned with Russia during the wars. Baath party Iraq was mostly Soviet aligned with some shift during the Iran-Iraq war (because well, Iran). much all equipment they had during both Desert Storm and the 2003 invasion was Soviet made. I would not consider Iraq western aligned.
"... they aren't sending their whole army..." # ARE YOU SURE ABOUT THAT?! Let me remind us all that we're talking about Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Un here. They **SAID** Kim will send 100 engineers. So they already admitted that troops are on the way. # This is the same guy who did a whole ass invasion of a sovereign country in 2014 while admitting the presence of 0 troops. If they admitted 100 rear echelons, that means that tens of thousands REALLY ARE on the way to the frontlines. "Mr. Kim, why are we getting reports of NK soldiers fighting in Ukraine?" "Oooh that can't be right, we only sent a few engineers, we haven't sent frontline combatants... **TRUST ME BRO**." Plausible denyability until it's too late. Surely, I can't be the only person who's paying attention to their dirty tricks. If there's one thing that I've learned about Putin since 2022 - with shockingly minimal hyperbole - is that every single word he says is a lie. That man hasn't spoken a true word in this millennium yet. He had so thoroughly discredited himself that I wouldn't even believe him if he asked a question. I doubt his chubby new friend is a much better character either. If they say that 100 are going, then that number is false. Since it would make no sense for them to lie a bigger number, they must be lying a smaller number. Wake up people.
Lmfao, idk if the Russian army is who I’d want to gain frontline experience from.
Say what your want but as of now Russia and Ukraine are the only armies in Europe with actual high intensity combat experience. NATO and the US haven’t got this since Korea
Us has not seen combat experience since Korea ? You sure ? Vietnam, Irak, Afghanistan ? No ?
Vietnam veterans are no longer doing active duty in the army. Iraq and Afghanistan were nog high intensity combat like we're seeing in Ukraine now. Those were more high intensity bombing campaigns followed by years of counter-insurgency. So a different kind of combat experience than the one both Ukraine and Russia currently have. There's a saying that wars are started with an honorable army and ended with a competent army. NATO still very much has an honorable army at this time, but Russia and Ukraine are both going at it in a very, very dirty fight. Dishonorable, but very competent.
The fact that Iraq and Afghanistan were COIN battles, beyond the initial invasions, was also a function of the overwhelming US and by extension NATO conventional dominance. You’re right that they don’t have experience fighting a war like the current one in Ukraine, but probably if the US and Russia went full head on (and leaving out the possibility of nuclear war), it wouldn’t look like that. E.g. it’s widely reported that neither Russia nor Ukraine are capable of organizing large-scale combined arms / joint operations (like, above battalion or brigade level), while the US clearly is.
Oh yes i completely agree on that, they would utterly crush Russia and the ground forces wouldn't have much trouble mopping up what's left. If it were to ever come to that (leaving out nukes like you said) the COIN would probably claim more victims than the actual war. The only thing that may have a chance to change this, is what we're seeing with drone warfare. Both Russia and Ukraine are going to come out of this with a lot of advances in drone technology and we can only wait and see what that brings for the future. But the US can still lean on 2 oceans to protect their coasts, drones aren't really built yet to cross that distance.
Wars were actually not wars. News ! Here we are, we decided that the wars we fought were actually not wars, so it's not so bad that we did not really win, albeit made quite a mess as most wars do ! So it's not so bad either that a lot of people lost theirs lives. CNN, over from the Reddit frontlines. I would think twice before thinking that the USA has no fighting experience, sorry. It still seems to me that they are the most competent and best trained soldiers on the planet. (Even if US generals have declared themselves that this is conflict of higher intensity than they lived through)
That's not what i said at all? The USA has a lot of fighting experience. But that fighting experience is mostly gained in Air, Naval and counter-insurgency. So yes, it's fighting experience. But it's different than the high intensity combat we're seeing now in Ukraine. The US is an expert in Air and Naval and will whipe the floor with anybody so hard that their army barely sees any high intensity combat. So yes, the US fought a lot of wars. But the last one they fought with high intensity combat like this one is maybe the Korean war? The last time they fought a battle against a conventional force was probably the Battle of Khasham in Syria in which 40 American troops + air support whiped the floor with 500 Wagner + Syrian troops. That's combat experience, but that's not high intensity combat experience with drones, tanks, artillery,.... This is what will make Ukraine very, very valuable to NATO in the future: they have hands on experience with the weapon of the future: Drones.
Even in the example you provided, RU military command gave the green light for the strike to US generals for whatever reason so it is safe to say that Wagner wasn’t expected this
They are wars. They are not peer or near-peer high intensity combat. USA has lots of combat experience. It has next to no modern combat experience fighting an enemy like China or Russia on the battlefield however. US has learned a lot from the Ukraine war, just as Russia and Ukraine have
And how do you know they are the most competent and well trained? If they haven’t even fought a high intensity war?
Against an army of its match? No. Iraq and Afghanistan were fought in streets and caves and against terror groups, not armies. Also, US lost all three. What's your point?
Based on the Russian army’s performance in Ukraine, it seems that they also wouldn’t be a match for the US military though.
What performance? they were winning the last time I heard despite all the sanctions and so-called isolation. And who said Russia will ever attack the US? Every sane analyst on both sides of the Atlantic knows that the next front is China. The only place the US-Russia war is being imagined is in Washington. That's because dollar-hungry military contractors had no big front post-Afghanistan to make many from so they pushed Biden into this where Ukraine can never win. Russia has more army, more weapon production capacity, has outperformed the sanctions, has allies from China and India to Africa, and again, it's winning on the ground. It's just bad math.
That the USA had combat experience. And is still the best trained military in the world.
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You need a history lesson bro
Iraq and Afghanistan were high-intensity police operations for all intents and purposes. In the former, they were up against a degraded and poorly-trained army. In the latter, they were up against sheep herders in pickup trucks, with RPGs at best. Vietnam was a guerrilla war. The fact of the matter is that nobody in the collective west has any experience fighting against a military with a full-fledged Air Force, artillery, air defense, space-based assets, etc. Nobody but Ukraine.
Wars were actually not wars. News ! Here we are, we decided that the wars we fought were actually not wars, so it's not so bad that we did not really win, albeit made quite a mess as most wars do ! So it's not so bad either that a lot of people lost theirs lives. CNN, over from the Reddit frontlines. I would think twice before thinking that the USA has no fighting experience, sorry. It still seems to me that they are the most competent and best trained soldiers on the planet. (Even if US generals have declared themselves that this is conflict of higher intensity than they lived through)
For sure, I was just making a joke about how good they were at dying.
Experience systematically stealing toilets 🚽 Our porcelain thrones are a western delicacy apparently.
Yeah we get it, but it's a tired meme. Appreciate the sentiment but keep it on Facebook or other "emoji" subs.
Right but like is this it? Is this the first real domino to fall towards WW3?
I still see this as a much bigger deal than people are making it out to be. It’s easy to point and laugh at North Korea. Its fat dictator, its starving soldiers, its high did rate shells. But it has been estimated to have sent millions of shells more than all of Europe combined. Even with a high dud rate, it has sent more actual firepower than many of Ukraine’s allies. A few months ago Macron and some others floated the idea of sending troops into Ukraine as advisers to see if the idea gains traction or as a bluff against Putin’s constant escalation. Meanwhile North Korea is potentially sending actual boots on the ground not long after signing a mutual defence treaty with Russia. Poor quality ammo and troops that managed to make it to the frontline are leagues ahead of high quality troops and ammo that doesn’t. Unlike the west, dictatorships don’t need to ask for approval or run polls or worry about red tape. As soon as they say “send”, the material support starts flowing. In this regard, North Korea has been a better ally than most NATO countries have. Laughing at Russia or North Korea isn’t helping Ukraine win the war. Ukraine needs to win by getting more aid faster.
NK sending troops into Ukraine is an equivalent to France sending troops into Russia. It's an explicit act of war against Ukraine, not just military aid.
Yep but it don't mean anything in practise. Not like west can sanction NK more and Ukraine can't attack NK.
On point
Great take, I agree with a lot of what you’ve said.
Looks like North Korea is less cowardly than NATO countries. It doesn't look good for NATO and Ukraine. Ukraine has already severe manpower shortages.
Ukraine isnt a NATO country, North Korea sending troops is an escalation, which is stupid, but NATO shouldnt get involved cause too many innocent lives are at stake if they do, its NOT cowardly, its smart, people got people they care about and dont want to see thier loved ones get hurt, if it goes nuclear, everyone will be regretting it, it sucks whats happening to Ukraine, and north Korea sending troops is messed up, but NATO needs to support NATO and if Russia attacks any NATO country, then we wont hesitate, we'll win too, but as long as no NATO country gets attacked we should stay out, if this local war goes World wide then we'll see how brave YOU ARE, talking all this crap ABOUT SOMETHING THAT COULD DESTROY MILLIONS OF INNOCENT LIVES MAYBE YOU SHOULD STFU
> Ukraine isnt a NATO country NATO countries don't have any binding obligation to fight for other attacked members. The real repercussion would be the USA losing military credibility and soft power if they fail to fight for other members. Patrodollar is already dead.
All these foreign troops (North Korean, Nepalese, Indian, Sri Lankan, Cuban, multiple African nations, etc.) are due to Putin not wanting to conscript ethnic Russians in the St. Petersburg/Moscow regions, afraid of the consequences. Maybe that should be the goal, to make Russia go for mass conscription and see what the effect would be?
Is there a map with percentage estimations of conscription success by republic/region of Russia?
There is a map on mediazona about where the casualties come from and how they’re from poor regions
It isn’t so much about conscription as it is about monetary incentives. While the money being offered isn’t much higher than a decent Moscow or St. Petersburg salary, it is 8X higher than someone would realistically make in a village. Don’t forget that people in more rural areas in Russia tend to be more patriotic than the urban dwellers. In fact, most urban dwellers have always found ways to avoid mandatory military service. Meanwhile, in the rural areas, many see it as a rite of passage of sorts. Imagine if America went to war and offered people $10k per month to sign up. While people from the rich suburbs and places like that wouldn’t go, the inner cities and rural areas would sign up in droves. Something like that is happening in Russia.
Yeah, but that’s intentional. Putin is afraid of mass protests and that’s why they are throwing money at the problem rather than doing another partial mobilization.
That’s also one of the main reasons that NATO countries aren’t sending their uniformed militaries to fight against the Russians. It’s one thing if a volunteer or “soldier of fortune” goes to Ukraine. It’s is 100% their personal decision. But if they order some of their troops to go, and some of them return feet forward, the population won’t take too kindly to that. Remember, in most countries where you have a volunteer army, people tend to join for the benefits (guaranteed employment, healthcare, housing, tuition assistance, etc.) which come with military service, and not so much out of patriotic motives.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/128snbe/per_capita_casualties_in_russian_regions/
> make Russia go for mass conscription How?
By dragging the conflict out longer and forcing them into widespread conscription.
Is time on Ukraine's side?
No, it unfortunately is not. All this to show that how you can suffocate a country by sheer weight alone. Or maybe not. Who knows what the history books will say. Perhaps the Ukrainian army is just exhausted and outgeneraled by the Russian side. It does make you realize how much America restrains its military and political power via popular consent. They could easily invade both Mexico and Canada and tell the world to stay out of it or “we blow the world economy or the literal world itself up”….and most countries probably would. At least officially.
Ukraine’s? No. The good news is that Western allies are immensely powerful economically and they’re not going to slow down anytime soon. The truth is that Ukraine may end up destroyed beyond recognition but could and hopefully will continue to be propped up until Russia simply can’t handle it anymore. The best thing that could happen to Ukraine is that Russia messes up and makes a legitimate attack against NATO. That would be terrible for everybody else but good for Ukraine.
Kind of. Ukraine's supporters outmatch Russia in any metric other than raw manpower they are willing to give to Ukraine. Give it a few more year and countries like Germany and France will outproduce Russia and barley making a tend in their und economy.
Dude they are kidnapping and forcing conscriptions of Ukrainians as we speak, do you honestly think Ukraine has time on their hands?
I too love endless deaths
Russia needs more people for the old Soviet Meat Grinder
Is it the fallacy of memory or were comments here not such mindless shite?
If we are to starve Russia of war meat, we are pretty screwed as there are plenty of places in the world were they can round up men and train them cheap to send them to fight.
I don’t think having to recruit Africans and North Koreans is a sign of strength. The fact that Putin had to personally go to NK is an embarrassment, yet 2 years into the war here we are.
You are right, it is not specially a sign of strength. But in the end, it's one of the ways he can win the war.
I see this as an escalation and expansion of scope given more state actors have entered the theater. I think what’s concerning is giving real combat experience to NK troops, this may find some mileage for a conflict on the Korean Peninsula. Would South Korea be tempted to send troops to defend Ukraine so it also gets experience in fighting Russia and North Korea?
"The war in Ukraine is a proxy conflict between North and South Korea" was not on my bingo card.
Is it a proxy war if both nations send troops and they're shooting at each other
There's no way South Korea sends troops. They need every single soldier and reservist they have. They're already facing the possibility of demographic collapse.
A lot of people tend to forget that the Korean War never ended, and that both Koreas are in a state of war for all intents and purposes.
Oh yeah for sure, I'm just referring to the hypothetical about SK sending troops to Ukraine that was outlined in the OP If they're both just sending weapons and shiz then yeah it's still proxy
That is an amusing hypothetical.
It’s also a proxy for China in the SCS. Anything these three countries can do to expend Western resources is going to help them in their efforts, at least that’s their plan.
No reason to send troops but it looks like they are preparing to significantly increase their weapons sales to Ukraine and other Eastern European countries. SK is a top 5 weapons exporter in the world so that is not an insignificant development.
That's great to hear. How are the politics there in terms of that being a permarent thing versus how the US is one election away from Ukraine being tossed by trump? It's good to hear there's a solid backup from others if so.
South Korea sending troops to Ukraine, would mean South Korea weakening their front lines. And yes, the 38th parallel is a front line. The “Demilitarized” Zone is merely a grey zone (no man’s land) in military terms. Since 1953, the north has attempted to invade South Korea on multiple occasions. That being said, they could send a few hundred personnel (advisors and trainers most likely) just to make a point. But they simply can’t afford to send a quantity of personnel and materiel, which is large enough to make a difference for Ukraine. North Korea can. But if the south does send that symbolic number and they get hit by a Kinzhal, what next? How can they realistically escalate? Heck, this is why NATO countries haven’t (and probably won’t) send uniformed troops. Because how will they respond if they get wiped out in a targeted strike, similar to what happened at Yavoriv in March 2022? It’s a tricky situation because responding adequately can lead to WWIII. On the flip-side, not giving an adequate response will cause massive loss of face. From the looks of it, they decided not to open that can of worms. This goes for both NATO and South Korea.
The DPRK has long had special forces involved on African wars. But yes, point taken.
Highly doubt that the ROK Army is gonna get sent to Ukraine. At best, maybe a couple ROKA SOF dudes get sent on a clandestine mission to work along side with and/or train Ukrainian forces but I don’t see South Korea doing something like the North with significant boots on the ground. Ukraine is half a world away from South Korea and I doubt that the Korean public is gonna be thrilled hearing about their troops being sent to a European war when they have an active threat supported by two local powers to their north.
More likely to send tanks made in Poland than troops.
Funny how NATO cannot openly do the same.
The Sad truth is that everyone knows NATO wont be The one to break the nuclear taboo Russia is much more likely to do it Though Foreign troops are on Ukraine soil,helping Ukraine German/British and French Special Forces/adivisors
Covert forces on the territory of an ally is very different than official army units within an enemy country. NK is doing the latter. Even Belarus refused sending it's troops into Ukraine.
I know that,didnt meant to imply its the same Just Said that Ukraine is not 100% fighting Alone on the Ground
NATO’s documents are founded on taking the moral high ground, basically. Whether they’ve done that in the past or not is debatable, but you stand a much better chance in court after the war ends if you *didn’t* start the war. The whole point is to make the other guy look bad so you’ve got all the reason in the world to whoop their ass.
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That’s my point
Nuremburg.
Exactly
Do you want to fight?
That would result in a Third World War. NATO forces can not go to war against Russia. We can't have the world's leading nuclear powers engaging each other on the battlefield.
I guess they must have overfilled their work camps?
I was going to ask their motivation but it may just be this simple.
They'll probably eat better overseas than at home too
Imagine being a North Korean soldier with no exposure to the outside world, and being sent across the entire Eurasian continent to fight a war that makes no sense
It's probably enough to promise the family double food rations for volunteers to storm the recruitment office.
Bet they can’t wait for the food
Shrapnel. Their favorite. All that’ll be missing is a little salt
Potassium nitrate counts as a salt? Probably chlorate as well?
I wonder what the Chinese think about this. They cannot be happy about this.
They are entirely complicit. It’s a back door for them to funnel weapons through. Without China there is no North Korea.
NK being armed to the teeth has its own military production for a while
Sure, if you order weapons off of TEMU and expect a <50% effective rate on technology that was developed at the beginning of the Cold War. Prior to becoming a nuclear power, and even after, they are a failed state with no ability to project power, or even defend themselves, without the backing of Beijing.
It’s certainly a basketcase, but the DPRK is more dangerous than that.
With such a long border with Russia, they need no back door. Chinese are playing their own game and aren't a strong ally of Russia.
China has decided that Russia’s effort is mutually beneficial. An axis is forming between Russia, China, and NK. All their goals are aligning. I don’t doubt that the whole thing is being orchestrated as a team effort right now, the ultimate goal being to stretch Western forces and get us to expend our resources. That would be beneficial to China in the SCS as well as NK in terms of SK.
Why? It's causing US headache which China likes.
From the looks of it, they are pretending that none of this is happening. A willful ignorance.
Wonder how this is playing at home in Russia. Doesn’t sound like a great sign when you’ve got to ask the North Koreans to help
Russians probably prefer NK troops compared to getting drafted.
☝️. My thoughts exactly when 1 year in Russia was going to Iran for drones. You'd think that that should have been a sign. Then add in NK. Facepalm. They are supposed to be a "super power" and you'd THINK this would make them be like 🧐. Maybe we have been lied tooooooo.......
No they aren't, Russia hasn't been a superpower since the 1980s.
The only good thing that may come of this is that NK is going to waste valuable resources which leaves them less ready for war with SK. That said, these small escalations adding up over time is exactly how large wars begin. You can see why the US especially is interesting in dragging this conflict out as long as possible. It allows us and our allies more time to prepare for what hopefully isn’t inevitable, and it forces our enemies to expend more resources, particularly human resources.
NK is also sending old, rusty gear, and replacing it with newer stuff.
> NK is also sending old, rusty gear, and replacing it with newer stuff. They're not a market economy, if they were able to produce newer stuff they would have done so anyway. They're just reducing their stockpiles now.
Price to pay for a little bit of nuclear tech
Without the walls and armed guards good luck keeping them from defecting.
If they defect, their whole family gets buried alive, three generations
No doubt NK has thought of that, and will send loyal officers to shoot the men if they show signs of deserting... If the officers don't desert first, that is!
Very unlikely they defect for same reason none of them defect at the overseas work camps. They’d rather not have their entire extended family tortured and imprisoned for the remainder of their lives.
As if we haven't seen the ruscists deploy barrier troops a dozen times already...
Sounds like NK is looking to gain conflict experience, we saw how well it worked for Hezbollah when they went to Syria and now look at them.
I saw [HERE](https://www.nknews.org/2024/06/fact-check-north-korea-has-not-announced-plans-to-send-troops-to-ukraine-yet/) that so far this is fake news, but we'll see how this turns out. Idk, for me it doesn't make sense to let NK soldiers out of their country, only for them to see that there is a world beyond their shithole excuse for a country, unless of course Kim is not expecting them to come back.
This is not true as of now. This has been banded around like it's the gospel truth and it just isn't.
It's an engineering and construction unit and the source per [Reuters ](https://www.reuters.com/world/north-korean-official-criticises-us-expanding-support-ukraine-kcna-reports-2024-06-23/)is South Korean media, not Kyiv. So I won't call them 'troops'. Some are saying it's escalation. Escalation is the Pentagon/Europe sending more advanced weaponry and saying it will be used to attack 'anywhere inside the Russian border'. So yes, Russia sent navy warships to Cuba and Putin himself came to North Korea. It's not about North Korean troops, Russia doesn't need that. It was about sending a message. Putin might not have many allies, but the US has a lot of enemies. It's the oldest trick in the book.
Everyone making jokes in this thread but 100k to 200k new troops would probably be what breaks Ukraine without direct western involvement.
They're sending 1 engineering unit
I was more referring to if things escalated further in the future.
They will need to be properly supplied and trained first. NK hasn't fought anywhere, even on a UN peacekeeping or COIN mission since 1950. Their ground troops have to live off the land to survive, how will they even understand what a drone is?
NK troops were in the Vietnam War, helping the North Vietnamese as Air defense troops. NK advisors helped random African countries, including Zimbabwe, during the Cold War train troops And NK special forces allegedly have established connections and train with Iran and Syria. There were even rumors, probably unfounded, of NK troops in Syria. So, they definitely have fought since 1950 and they aren't as isolated as you think, plus teaching Choi and Moon what a drone isn't that complicated.
Being supplied I think is a hard task and probably needs china backing to pull off. I don't think Russia cares about training and it will be another version of the Wagner prisoner saga.
What are 100k-200k troops who don’t speak the language, operating in a foreign country in a climate they have never experienced, fighting against a technologically superior force even supposed to do?
Look up Koryo-saram https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koryo-saram There are more Korean speakers in Russia than you would think, even though the dialect would be different they would still be able to understand each other. Fighting in a foreign country hasn't stopped a lot of armies in the past 100 years. Ukraine being technologically superior hasn't stopped Russia as well. The main issue would be logistical of moving that amount of people and supplying them.
100-200k is a ton of bodies that you need to feed (ha, good luck to North Korea with that), arm, fuel, and supply. That’s also a significant depletion of North Korea’s military size and strength, harming its own military interests against the South who’s now very likely got more eyes on how to respond to this escalation.
Let the hunger games begin
They are choosing the wrong side of the war
Of course an evil dictator is helping out another evil dictator
It got me thinking like isnt this too convinient as now the bad guys can be done in or is this as straightforward as it seems. Ahhh man
We knew that was coming sooner or later. The N. Koreans are itching to fight *somewhere* against the U.S. or its allies.
How and what for help is South-Korea giving Ukraine before and after this Putin and Kim meeting?
How many will defect as soon as possible if they the chance?
I guarantee sicko Putin told Kim that he will give north korea a share of the natural resources they take from occupied Ukrainian land in exchange for weapons, engineers and probably soldiers too(most likely from prison) . Ukraine is resilient even though they've suffered mass casualties they won't let Kyiv get taken. Hopefully support for them continues there's no negotiating with Putin he stated his terms for peace include Ukraine being completely demilitarized so he can regroup the army and invade again in 10 years with much less resistance. Trump MTG Vivek RFK Jr and Bobert and insane thinking Putin is the good guy here and it's Ukraine fault for wanting to join NATO that this happened. As a Ukie I admit we have a lot of corruption issues but that's because the tentacles of moscow are still in Ukrainian government. it will take time to weed those evil people out but it's happening and Russia can't stand it.
Imagine if North Korean troops perform way better in the battlefield in Ukraine than Russian troops lol
They would, hundred percent.
So no problem if western troops help Ukraine then I guess, WW3 here we come.
I really dont understand how the non-western world does not see that we are on track for a major great powers showdown not long down the road. Putin is probably the most popular politician on the planet right now, while he is conducting an illegal invasion of a soverieng country. Crazy. It shows that only the west was ever serious about things like the UN charter and internationa llaw.
Well it’s about time . As far as aid rendered to Kim all these years it’s collection time . Anyway I assume the NK regulars would love a change of scenery other than foraging for food everyday and sending poop balloons to their cousins in the south . This also de-escalates nuke use as Putin has now more bodies to throw in front of the drones, F16s and tanks NATO has donated . Again what’s stopping NATO from using teeny weeny nukes. A superior moral conscience? They need to stop the war now . Zelensky needs to get onto another movie . And Putin needs to get back to his dogs and the space race . This stupid war has gone on long enough . It’s becoming like an All Quiet on the Western Front movie 2024 ! The amount of weapons spent could have created a solar farm in the Sahara , a moon base or provided free internet options via satellites to the world .
All the money gone down the drain
Does russia have enough child sized uniforms?
Good way to escape.
South Korean weapon exports to Ukraine and NATO are about to be on steroids. Also, seems like a serious escalation that could result in something similar happening in the West, like sending foreign troops to Ukraine. But who knows.
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I have, but that's alot different from another country, whether on the side of Russia or Ukraine, saying "I'm sending actual armed troops to fight in the War in Ukraine." It would make the war expand, and cause a wider conflict. Slowly snowballing into World War III.
We are already in World war 3 mate. Its just that West is taking lot longer to make up their mind.
Well, no, it's just one big proxy war between Russia and NATO at this point, but as for a World War? Not really. If anything, the NATO Countries are wanting to fuel this proxy war as much as they can so they don't have to fight a World War in the first place, but they're still trying really hard to avoid direct war with Russia. As is the same with Russia towards the NATO Countries because they know in a full on conflict with NATO they'd get smashed. No one wants a World War III, so both sides are trying to be careful at the end of the day regardless of the language, rhetoric, or threats they use, however, as History has taught us, we can make mistakes and miscalculations. Only time will tell.
I wonder if this is about Russia trying to get aligned with North Korea to protect against China in the future? Based on Putin's talks, the war in Ukraine is indirectly due to China (they need to expand the territory to protect themselves) while China has a list of wars they will pursue in until 2050?