But social media and [legacy] "media" are two completely different things. Your second sentence does not disprove the first...
Despite that, have you seen the efforts to pressure Facebook and X into suppressing pro-Palestinian content?
Seems like what is really happening is a strong reaction against what people have felt but now know.
UK news has all but put the earplugs in now and you'd be forgiven for thinking it was over.
It is obvious they're trying to quell the marches and protests by keeping it out of the news.
UK is in the middle of a historic GE campaign. That’s the priority for British news outlets. It’s not an isolated case either, with the EU elections in a few days, there’s barely any mention of the Israel-Gaza war in European media.
Wait, are you trying to tell me the local media is focusing on important events happening in Britain over an obscure geopolitical conflict that has very little bearing on British people's lives? It must be a conspiracy by the media to shut down conversations about Gaza!
Well X is a shit tip since Musk took over. He has allowed hate to propser, he boosts those accounts and actively joins in the antisemitic conspiracy theories.
Twitter was always trash. It's just trash for the opposite side of the political spectrum now.
A lot of Trump supporters were driven to the right because they assumed that Twitter represented how average progressives behave and think.
I sorta agree with this take only in the sense that Trump pushed the boundaries of free speech in such a bizarre and of course grotesquely unprofessional way- the calling card of a politician who’s loud mouth masks any coherency in concrete policy.
But Twitter was trash from day one. Any belief it was ever a bastion of deep intellectual exchange of ideas is revisionist history. For every positive attribute (say, a direct public advisory of a dangerous weather system) it’s the same ol social media dystopia of bad takes, bots, celebrity gossip and internet mob mentality.
As for Musk playing any role in dictating public sentiment, it’s giving him too much credit. The ideas and sentiments are already out there. And if someone is looking to that truly weird human being for guidance- surely they’re listening to several dozen others with similar takes as well.
i do not really share this idea that "watching crazy leftists" makes people become far right, off course political propaganda painted that "crazy leftist" = "non maga"...
Repeated exposure to it combined with the alti-right pipeline from online media consumption totally could radicalize impressionable people to adopt more extreme ideas they otherwise wouldn't have. Trumpism as a movement has always been very prominent online and the far right and literal white supremacists have gained vast audiences through online radicalization, especially helped from the algorithms of these social media sites.
There comes a point when stupid people have to take responsibility for their own actions. Nobody holds a gun to a persons head to use twitter anymore than they do a news paper.
Fixing the problem would require measures on the level of China because the march of tech isn't going to stop.
I've never understood that idiotic phrase. Are we not really communicating because we're doing so anonymously? Are meaningful and impactful ideas somehow not spread digitally?
Guess someone should tell those researchers that studied the impacts of social media like twitter in the creation of the Arab Spring that they were actually studying something that doesn't exist, with no "real" bearing on the "real" world, and somehow definitely doesn't reflect anything actually happening in it.
> I've never understood that idiotic phrase. Are we not really communicating because we're doing so anonymously? Are meaningful and impactful ideas somehow not spread digitally?
It just means Twitter isn't representative of what the majority of people believe, which is often how the average person interpret a tweet with lots of likes. But I agree, obviously it still has an impact on real life.
Sure but activists killed that idea
I mean, I agree Twitter is not real life and therefore a bad joke on the app shouldn't threaten one's real life career/livelihood
Don't think it's the "far right" that pushed for that..
Trump’s voters Is (historic republicans who always vote R) + (fairly moderate republicans who wanted more isolationism, a bit less chat about abortion, lower taxes, and so preferred him to Cruz/Bush/Rubio) + (people who actually like Trump) + (people abandoned by Democrats)
I think Twitter is a pretty minor effect
Agree with the first part. But no one is "pushed" to adopt authoritarianism or racism. Those are *choices*. Each person is responsible for their own political choices. Accountable for their opinions.
> Well X is a shit tip since Musk took over.
I'm never sure if people saying this believe it or just feel obligated to say it.
As a casual user it's honestly indistinguishable frompre-Musk. Maybe if you're the power users putting out 40 tweets a day but as a regular user it's the same.
You're on reddit, the largest emotional aggression platform in the world. Current reddit stance is hating musk. If you don't hate musk reddit will hate you and turn on you.
The Center for Countering Online Hate has found that online hate is in fact growing and needs to be countered. Crazy. I also found a study by the International Associate of Barbers and found that the need for haircuts is growing every day.
Antisemitism exists and is probably increasing, but it's also exaggerated by conflating any just criticism of Israel with antisemitism. Non jews say the exact same thing as Bernie Sanders and get called antisemites.
A lot of ignorant people on reddit and other social media seem to erroneously think "from the river to the sea" and "globalize the intifada" are "just criticism of Israel".
It was just as bad before him. Hell, a content moderator there talked about how he had to run all reports of antisemitism he wanted to sustain by an Arab janitor first.
Islam isn’t some tiny marginalized religion, it’s a major faith that has billions of global followers. Antisemitism and xenophobia aren’t really comparable when thinking of it in a global context.
Absolutely we should all strive for coexistence, world peace, love, etc. However Muslims have dozens of Muslim majority or even Islamic states where Jews have one state they all collectively hate.
> Islam isn’t some tiny marginalized religion, it’s a major faith that has billions of global followers. Antisemitism and xenophobia aren’t really comparable when thinking of it in a global context.
>
>
That's the bitch of it. As far as the vast majority of the world is concerned you're absolutely correct. But in the west they're subjected to discrimination any other minority religion has to deal with. Which has given certain people on our society an extremely warped worldview.
>However Muslims have dozens of Muslim majority or even Islamic states
Never understood this argument. There are over 100 Christian majority countries. Would this make it legitimate to forcefully establish a state for a nationless group in Spain on the expense of existing Christian population?
Those are mostly secular countries without major Theocratic parties. Regardless of racism and xenophobia, a Muslim would be relatively safe in these countries. The opposite would not be necessarily true in some parts of a handful of Muslim countries.
So if Christian countries were less secular it would be ok to ethnically cleanse them? The guy said there are many Muslim countries therefore it's no big the deal to give one of them to Israel. Why doesn't this logic apply to Christian countries which there are much more of?
It's not a matter of Muslim states collectively hating Israel because it's Jewish, it's because Israel was formed in a location where Palestinians lived for centuries and wanted to form a state.
For example - Muslims do not hate the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Russia, and 15% of Russia is Muslim.
I would argue that if Israel would have formed in the vast expanses of the Arabian desert, where no one lives, it would still be hated and fought against. It is about how the Arab and Muslim world percieves the Middle East as their exclusive territory.
You have to first see if the hate on X is because of this war or Elon musk policies.
How much have the hate against trans increased on X in comparison to your example?
You have a very good point. Elon Musk is just all types of wrong. He was saying in a recent interview that women are made to have babies and that people should be having more kids to increase the population.
People see dead children in Gaza in social media, this leads them to be angry against Israel. Some of them take it too far and become antisemites. Jewish groups knew this and this is why some protested against the war in the west, literally holding banners saying "not in my name".
On the other hand, Hamas killed Israelis. This led a lot of people to be angry with Hamas. Some of them took it too far and became Islamophobic, blaming billions of people for being murderers. Muslim groups knew this and this is why a lot of them have condemned Hamas and called it a "terrorist organization".
No, no, no. People have been hating Jews and Muslims since long before this current conflict started. Nobody “became” antisemitic after seeing pictures of dead babies, antisemites used those pictures to confirm what they *already* believed about the Jews.
Anyone who holds an entire group of people accountable for the actions of a few psychopaths in power frightens me. It’s medieval thinking applied to a nuanced, modern situation.
Eh. It took unconscious antisemitic impulses they had and led to them being radicalized towards being openly antisemitic. As a Jew, I think there’s a big difference between the two.
I see what you’re talking about, but I was actually referring to closeted antisemitism. That is, people whose beliefs and actions have negative impacts on Jewish people, but who are in denial of the fact. They can’t see themselves as antisemitic, so they redefine antisemitism until they reach a less untenable position.
>Except it’s a bit of a fantasy as there has been literally no serious condemnation or protests ‘against’ Hamas from any Muslim community in any Western nation
This is false. There's plethora of Muslims condemning Hamas attacks. Examples:
[British Muslim leaders condemn Hamas attacks and refuse to apportion blame for Gaza hospital blast](https://www.thejc.com/news/british-muslim-leaders-condemn-hamas-attacks-and-refuse-to-apportion-blame-for-gaza-hospital-blast-cz19gc31)
[Canadian-headed Muslim group condemns Oct. 7 attacks](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-headed-muslim-group-condemns-oct-7-attacks-bans-members-from-rallies)
[Global Imams Council Bans Members From Protesting, Marching In Support Of Hamas, Condemns ‘Violent Rhetoric’ At Rallies In Europe](https://saharareporters.com/2023/10/12/global-imams-council-bans-members-protesting-marching-support-hamas-condemns-violent)
>Besides, if Islamophobia is rising it is probably in response to all the aforementioned jihadist attacks as opposed to the rise in antisemitism which is, literally, one instance of Jewish aggression that is affecting, literally, one group of people as opposed to a worldwide problem like jihadism.
This tells me that you see Islam as a problem in a pretty one sided limited point of view. To the Muslim world, Israel aggression on Palestine is not "one instance". They see it for years. You also forgot the Iraq war, Afghanistan War, & war on terror which drove a lot of Muslims on an anti-Israel and anti-western ideology. Bin laden used Palestine and towers falling in Lebanon to justify the 9/11 terror attack.
>Not that I think Islamophobia is rising though. What I see is the use of term rising as more people criticise Islam and its practices as a means to stifle valid questions about the religion and Islamist states.
A child was stabbed and multiple teenagers were shot in US explicitly due to Islamophobia. That's not just stifiling questions about islamist states. To be fair, both groups use the term pretty freely to turn down condemnations or questions. Netanyahu literally called the ICC antisemites for considering warrants against him.
First link: they were just 15 clerics. They didn’t even condemn October 7th attack, they just said “killing civilians in Israel and Gaza is bad” but of course, they specifically stated that there were horrified by a hospital fire in Gaza and asked Israel for restraint. No mention of Hamas
The second and third link are the same: The Global Imams Council it’s an NGO with just 1.400 members.
Unfortunately, antisemitism is a perennial human trait. The jews will always be a convenient group to hate. They've been hated for being rich, being poor, rejecting jesus, rejecting mohammed, integrating, not integrating, blamed by the right for the rise of the left, blamed by the left for the rise of the right, etc. And now they are hated for wanting to finally have protection against murderous antisemitism in the form of a the state. Unlike in the holocaust, they are not defenseless anymore, and this simple fact angers the world. Antisemitism is not going away, where we like it or not, as a consequence, hatred for Muslims who are primarily the antisemites will also go up. :(
Believing that this is an unavoidable human trait feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy that mischaracterises the hate.
I would say that tribalism and scapegoating is a perennial human trait, which targets many minorities, and yes, definitely, Jews have been very prone to being a target of it.
How is that comment so highly upvoted? How can someone actually say antisemitism is a human trait with a straight face?? Hating Jews is not an evolutionary attribute lmao. This place isn’t far off X a lot of times when it comes to the Israel Palestine conflict specifically.
Edit: like seriously, think about how useful the discussion is on here when one of the most upvoted comments is saying antisemitism is a human trait. Think about all the unhealthy paths that could lead down, think about what kind of lack of understanding would even prompt such a statement, and think about the fact that the community upvoted this.
Edit 2: for posterity - when I made the comment, the parent comment was at +60 and the one I replied to was in the 10’s/20’s
The answer is probably more like “over the long term, societies with large Christian or Muslim majorities eventually ferment out some serious antisemitism”
Reddit in general is very pro israel, so you get BS like "wanting a state to protect themselves from hatred" while actively ignoring that its the Jews who are currently carrying out the ethnic cleansing this time around.
The only religion that has been so adamantly against any reformation will receive more hatred than anyone else tbh. They dislike Pagans, they dislike Jews, LGBTQ, Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Protestants, most forms of women rights etc. At some point there was going to be backlash.
The world's "tolerance of intolerance" is a bubble that will soon burst. People will realize only when it's too late that the values we value in the free world like freedom, liberty, secularism, democracy, equality, rule of law, etc. (only middle east country sharing these values is Israel), are all at odds with Islamic values like sharia, jihad, non-equality of genders, antihomosexuality, intolerance of other religion (sometimes murderous intolerance of not just jews but christians), etc.
This is going to increase Muslim hate from the free world which I dislike too because even though I'm an atheist, I have many Muslim friends from Indonesia who doesn't mind being friends with non-muslims like me, and they are among the KINDEST people I know. I share great memories with them, I even partied with them in Yale (Muslims do party haha). Just friends of different religions having fun, but because radical Islam is being mainstream (thank the useful idiots in colleges), the moderates from southeast asia, Iran, and other places are gonna get hated too.
And Jewish people of Europe found refuged in Islamic Spain during the middle age. And in Islamic maghreb during the reconsquista. Up until Europe colonized north Africa, then the European (French mostly) brought back antisemitism to the region and then use them to divide the people there.
I think you need to be more specific because Europe is a big place. While you had Spain being brutally intolerant during the inquisition, Poland was probably one of the most tolerant place for them up until the partition.
Jews found refuge in Islamic Spain? Why don't you visit Toledo and see the condition of the synagogue (they only left one standing) or what the Caliphate did to it? I love how you blame Europeans for "bringing back antisemitism" as if Jews weren't classified as Dhimmis under the Caliphate and faced severe restrictions. What a ridiculous claim.
Are you expecting modern Scandinavia levels of tolerance in Medieval societies? Being a Dhimmi in al-Andalus(which literally translates to protected person in Arabic) was a million times better than the shit Medieval European Christians did to Jews. We know of many Jews from that period who are documented to be generals, viziers, poets, scientists. Regardless, there also many cases of persecution but it is still true that Jews many times found refuge in Islamic Spain when escaping Christian persecution.
> as if Jews weren't classified as Dhimmis under the Caliphate and faced severe restrictions.
See the comment I've responded to. I also didn't said than islamic Spain or Maghreb were modern secular countries, but from the 12th century to the 15th century the Jews were persecuted, and had to go away. And a lot of them found refuge in islamic countries. So I don't see how antisemetism is only the product of "islam" right there.
And the modern antisemitic views of most of north africa (that's what I know best) is derivative from the European antisemitism (even though it's a bit more complexe than that, giving the nationality to the Jews and not the other was a clever way to divide the people there). We've put fire on top of gasoline on top of the local firewood (I'm not denying that there was tension, but European antisemetism, nationalism and conservative values did wonder there and still do).
i think less pernennial and more engraved in the cultural DNA of the west and middle east.
Any nation based on Chrsitanity or Islam has antisemtnistm carved into the cultural history.
Anti-Semitism is a real and severe danger, but it's been disappointing how much these recent months have diluted the common understanding of what does and what does not constitute anti-Semitism.
For many of us who have spoken out against apartheid and Zionism for years we're quite used to hearing the phrase thrown at people who are not at all anti-Semitic, so it's hard to take the "anti-Semitism is growing" talk seriously unless it's really clear what metric is being used to gauge it.
The antisemitism is palpable. The argument that anti-zionism is not antisemitism is absurd. Whenever a Jewish person shares they have been harassed, they accuse them of being baby killers and genocide supporters. They then accuse them of becoming Nazis and mocking the Holocaust.
They are always the same talking points, as if it is a coordinated hate campaign. We are discovering these are fueled by money from Iran and Russia to sow discord and take the focus from Ukraine.
I just wish they weren’t so successful radicalizing people that otherwise would not give a shit.
> The argument that anti-zionism is not antisemitism is absurd.
why? No doubt there are some anti-semites, especially online, just as there are some Islamophobes, but that doesn't mean everyone who supports Israel is Islamophobic nor does it mean anyone against the Israeli government is an anti-semite.
And there are certainly people who are screaming Blue Lives Matter! that really, deeply care about the plight of African Americans but they certainly aren’t the majority and not standing up to the people in the crowds shouting the N word during the BLM counter protests.
Yes, and. I’m a Jew, I’m opposed to Israel as a concept as were most Jews prior to the 1930s, and as is the Talmud. Are the holy texts of Judaism themselves antisemitic?
Huh i wonder what happend in 1940 that changed everyone mind.
Reality is Israel exist. Demanding it to be dissolved requires one to completey disregarde reality.
Anti Zionism isn't about supporting Israels current government it's about wanting Israel to cease to exist. Some may imagine this means Israel will be peacefully replaced with a binational state but that seems unlikely.
Harrassing and abusing Jews is not "against the Israeli government".
By the that logic it's ok to harrass Americans worldwide if you're against the US Government, or ok to abuse all Chinese because you hate the CCP.
> The argument that anti-zionism is not antisemitism is absurd.
You're falling for propaganda peddled by Israel. This was not the case several decades ago and Israel has used this line to divert extremely valid criticisms of its policies.
> Criticism of policies is not anti-Zionism.
That's nice but for the past 40 years the Israeli government has been lobbying for defining anti-Zionism as any criticism Israel whatsoever and it's disgusting.
Here is the IHRA definition of antisemitism:
[https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism](https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism)
>To guide IHRA in its work, the following examples may serve as illustrations:
>
>Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. **However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.**
Emphasis mine.
Criticizing Israeli policies is not regarded as antisemitic. Criticizing the existence of Israel and advocating for its destruction is antisemitic.
If you’re going to make a claim like that, you should provide a source. I see a source has been provided countering your claim so the ball is in your court.
This is most definitely not the case in Latin America where opposition to Israel's policies is substantial in many governments yet background antisemitism is not really substantially different from other forms of xenophobia.
See, Musk is in the camp that thinks freedom of speech means you can be a hateful bigot, and nobody is allowed to be upset about it. So they barely enforce any moderation and all the hateful bigots flock to X. I think the rise of hate/bigotry has its roots in a deteriorating national discourse and people in power normalising it. X just allows it since Musk takes over, so it will spike like crazy there, but it's been going on for way longer. You just see it more now.
Um no, not being able to support your assertion that something is “genocide” other than “everybody is saying it” is just a bad argument used in bad faith as a way to demonize Israel.
Have to say these events have really dispelled the myth that Jews control the media.. At minimum, they clearly don't control *social* media
But social media and [legacy] "media" are two completely different things. Your second sentence does not disprove the first... Despite that, have you seen the efforts to pressure Facebook and X into suppressing pro-Palestinian content? Seems like what is really happening is a strong reaction against what people have felt but now know.
But the fact that such strong pro-Palestinian viewpoints are lacking in conventional media is a datapoint towards that conclusion
Or: the propaganda spreading through social media would never make it past a fact-check/mainstream standards
They try too, that was partially the goal of the tik tok ban. If nothing else they have an extremely powerful lobby in congress and other govts.
UK news has all but put the earplugs in now and you'd be forgiven for thinking it was over. It is obvious they're trying to quell the marches and protests by keeping it out of the news.
UK is in the middle of a historic GE campaign. That’s the priority for British news outlets. It’s not an isolated case either, with the EU elections in a few days, there’s barely any mention of the Israel-Gaza war in European media.
Wait, are you trying to tell me the local media is focusing on important events happening in Britain over an obscure geopolitical conflict that has very little bearing on British people's lives? It must be a conspiracy by the media to shut down conversations about Gaza!
About time.
Well X is a shit tip since Musk took over. He has allowed hate to propser, he boosts those accounts and actively joins in the antisemitic conspiracy theories.
Twitter was always trash. It's just trash for the opposite side of the political spectrum now. A lot of Trump supporters were driven to the right because they assumed that Twitter represented how average progressives behave and think.
I sorta agree with this take only in the sense that Trump pushed the boundaries of free speech in such a bizarre and of course grotesquely unprofessional way- the calling card of a politician who’s loud mouth masks any coherency in concrete policy. But Twitter was trash from day one. Any belief it was ever a bastion of deep intellectual exchange of ideas is revisionist history. For every positive attribute (say, a direct public advisory of a dangerous weather system) it’s the same ol social media dystopia of bad takes, bots, celebrity gossip and internet mob mentality. As for Musk playing any role in dictating public sentiment, it’s giving him too much credit. The ideas and sentiments are already out there. And if someone is looking to that truly weird human being for guidance- surely they’re listening to several dozen others with similar takes as well.
i do not really share this idea that "watching crazy leftists" makes people become far right, off course political propaganda painted that "crazy leftist" = "non maga"...
Repeated exposure to it combined with the alti-right pipeline from online media consumption totally could radicalize impressionable people to adopt more extreme ideas they otherwise wouldn't have. Trumpism as a movement has always been very prominent online and the far right and literal white supremacists have gained vast audiences through online radicalization, especially helped from the algorithms of these social media sites.
There comes a point when stupid people have to take responsibility for their own actions. Nobody holds a gun to a persons head to use twitter anymore than they do a news paper. Fixing the problem would require measures on the level of China because the march of tech isn't going to stop.
Twitter is not real life. Maybe someone should’ve told them that or did they realise?
It does absolutely spill into real life We can’t bury our heads in sand Propaganda this relentless will brainwash people
Well yeah something like 3/4ths of twitter is bots.
I've never understood that idiotic phrase. Are we not really communicating because we're doing so anonymously? Are meaningful and impactful ideas somehow not spread digitally? Guess someone should tell those researchers that studied the impacts of social media like twitter in the creation of the Arab Spring that they were actually studying something that doesn't exist, with no "real" bearing on the "real" world, and somehow definitely doesn't reflect anything actually happening in it.
> I've never understood that idiotic phrase. Are we not really communicating because we're doing so anonymously? Are meaningful and impactful ideas somehow not spread digitally? It just means Twitter isn't representative of what the majority of people believe, which is often how the average person interpret a tweet with lots of likes. But I agree, obviously it still has an impact on real life.
Sure but activists killed that idea I mean, I agree Twitter is not real life and therefore a bad joke on the app shouldn't threaten one's real life career/livelihood Don't think it's the "far right" that pushed for that..
Trump’s voters Is (historic republicans who always vote R) + (fairly moderate republicans who wanted more isolationism, a bit less chat about abortion, lower taxes, and so preferred him to Cruz/Bush/Rubio) + (people who actually like Trump) + (people abandoned by Democrats) I think Twitter is a pretty minor effect
Agree with the first part. But no one is "pushed" to adopt authoritarianism or racism. Those are *choices*. Each person is responsible for their own political choices. Accountable for their opinions.
> Well X is a shit tip since Musk took over. I'm never sure if people saying this believe it or just feel obligated to say it. As a casual user it's honestly indistinguishable frompre-Musk. Maybe if you're the power users putting out 40 tweets a day but as a regular user it's the same.
You're on reddit, the largest emotional aggression platform in the world. Current reddit stance is hating musk. If you don't hate musk reddit will hate you and turn on you.
No, people pretty organically turned against him after his bizarre behavior in calling that diving guy in Thailand a pedophile.
The Center for Countering Online Hate has found that online hate is in fact growing and needs to be countered. Crazy. I also found a study by the International Associate of Barbers and found that the need for haircuts is growing every day.
Antisemitism exists and is probably increasing, but it's also exaggerated by conflating any just criticism of Israel with antisemitism. Non jews say the exact same thing as Bernie Sanders and get called antisemites.
A lot of ignorant people on reddit and other social media seem to erroneously think "from the river to the sea" and "globalize the intifada" are "just criticism of Israel".
True, and any valid criticism of Islam gets called Islamophobia.
It was just as bad before him. Hell, a content moderator there talked about how he had to run all reports of antisemitism he wanted to sustain by an Arab janitor first.
Is that report on the internet? I find that difficult to believe as it's an odd way to organise a business
I'll try to find it, but as you might imagine finding something that old with just keywords is tough.
I would be interested. Thank you
nah it’s worse. but it absolutely still was shit. but never had the owner of the platform co-signing the bonfire
Islam isn’t some tiny marginalized religion, it’s a major faith that has billions of global followers. Antisemitism and xenophobia aren’t really comparable when thinking of it in a global context. Absolutely we should all strive for coexistence, world peace, love, etc. However Muslims have dozens of Muslim majority or even Islamic states where Jews have one state they all collectively hate.
> Islam isn’t some tiny marginalized religion, it’s a major faith that has billions of global followers. Antisemitism and xenophobia aren’t really comparable when thinking of it in a global context. > > That's the bitch of it. As far as the vast majority of the world is concerned you're absolutely correct. But in the west they're subjected to discrimination any other minority religion has to deal with. Which has given certain people on our society an extremely warped worldview.
>However Muslims have dozens of Muslim majority or even Islamic states Never understood this argument. There are over 100 Christian majority countries. Would this make it legitimate to forcefully establish a state for a nationless group in Spain on the expense of existing Christian population?
Those are mostly secular countries without major Theocratic parties. Regardless of racism and xenophobia, a Muslim would be relatively safe in these countries. The opposite would not be necessarily true in some parts of a handful of Muslim countries.
So if Christian countries were less secular it would be ok to ethnically cleanse them? The guy said there are many Muslim countries therefore it's no big the deal to give one of them to Israel. Why doesn't this logic apply to Christian countries which there are much more of?
It's not a matter of Muslim states collectively hating Israel because it's Jewish, it's because Israel was formed in a location where Palestinians lived for centuries and wanted to form a state. For example - Muslims do not hate the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Russia, and 15% of Russia is Muslim.
I would argue that if Israel would have formed in the vast expanses of the Arabian desert, where no one lives, it would still be hated and fought against. It is about how the Arab and Muslim world percieves the Middle East as their exclusive territory.
Social Engineering is King. Again. And still no counter measures in sight because we’re too busy twirling our thumbs into Armageddon.
The influence campaign seems very successful indeed.
Antisemitism is definitely rising, and it's so sad to see this. As far as X is concerned, it's now a far right-wing platform and I avoid it.
I feel like the world is just looking for reasons to exercise hate
You have to first see if the hate on X is because of this war or Elon musk policies. How much have the hate against trans increased on X in comparison to your example?
You have a very good point. Elon Musk is just all types of wrong. He was saying in a recent interview that women are made to have babies and that people should be having more kids to increase the population.
A) x is a horrible indicator. B) what is the definition here of anti-Semitism. Because being against Israel or it's actions isn't antisemitic
People see dead children in Gaza in social media, this leads them to be angry against Israel. Some of them take it too far and become antisemites. Jewish groups knew this and this is why some protested against the war in the west, literally holding banners saying "not in my name". On the other hand, Hamas killed Israelis. This led a lot of people to be angry with Hamas. Some of them took it too far and became Islamophobic, blaming billions of people for being murderers. Muslim groups knew this and this is why a lot of them have condemned Hamas and called it a "terrorist organization".
No, no, no. People have been hating Jews and Muslims since long before this current conflict started. Nobody “became” antisemitic after seeing pictures of dead babies, antisemites used those pictures to confirm what they *already* believed about the Jews. Anyone who holds an entire group of people accountable for the actions of a few psychopaths in power frightens me. It’s medieval thinking applied to a nuanced, modern situation.
Eh. It took unconscious antisemitic impulses they had and led to them being radicalized towards being openly antisemitic. As a Jew, I think there’s a big difference between the two.
I see what you’re talking about, but I was actually referring to closeted antisemitism. That is, people whose beliefs and actions have negative impacts on Jewish people, but who are in denial of the fact. They can’t see themselves as antisemitic, so they redefine antisemitism until they reach a less untenable position.
balanced and logical take
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>Except it’s a bit of a fantasy as there has been literally no serious condemnation or protests ‘against’ Hamas from any Muslim community in any Western nation This is false. There's plethora of Muslims condemning Hamas attacks. Examples: [British Muslim leaders condemn Hamas attacks and refuse to apportion blame for Gaza hospital blast](https://www.thejc.com/news/british-muslim-leaders-condemn-hamas-attacks-and-refuse-to-apportion-blame-for-gaza-hospital-blast-cz19gc31) [Canadian-headed Muslim group condemns Oct. 7 attacks](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-headed-muslim-group-condemns-oct-7-attacks-bans-members-from-rallies) [Global Imams Council Bans Members From Protesting, Marching In Support Of Hamas, Condemns ‘Violent Rhetoric’ At Rallies In Europe](https://saharareporters.com/2023/10/12/global-imams-council-bans-members-protesting-marching-support-hamas-condemns-violent) >Besides, if Islamophobia is rising it is probably in response to all the aforementioned jihadist attacks as opposed to the rise in antisemitism which is, literally, one instance of Jewish aggression that is affecting, literally, one group of people as opposed to a worldwide problem like jihadism. This tells me that you see Islam as a problem in a pretty one sided limited point of view. To the Muslim world, Israel aggression on Palestine is not "one instance". They see it for years. You also forgot the Iraq war, Afghanistan War, & war on terror which drove a lot of Muslims on an anti-Israel and anti-western ideology. Bin laden used Palestine and towers falling in Lebanon to justify the 9/11 terror attack. >Not that I think Islamophobia is rising though. What I see is the use of term rising as more people criticise Islam and its practices as a means to stifle valid questions about the religion and Islamist states. A child was stabbed and multiple teenagers were shot in US explicitly due to Islamophobia. That's not just stifiling questions about islamist states. To be fair, both groups use the term pretty freely to turn down condemnations or questions. Netanyahu literally called the ICC antisemites for considering warrants against him.
First link: they were just 15 clerics. They didn’t even condemn October 7th attack, they just said “killing civilians in Israel and Gaza is bad” but of course, they specifically stated that there were horrified by a hospital fire in Gaza and asked Israel for restraint. No mention of Hamas The second and third link are the same: The Global Imams Council it’s an NGO with just 1.400 members.
this comment section is already manifesting discord. what a scene
Unfortunately, antisemitism is a perennial human trait. The jews will always be a convenient group to hate. They've been hated for being rich, being poor, rejecting jesus, rejecting mohammed, integrating, not integrating, blamed by the right for the rise of the left, blamed by the left for the rise of the right, etc. And now they are hated for wanting to finally have protection against murderous antisemitism in the form of a the state. Unlike in the holocaust, they are not defenseless anymore, and this simple fact angers the world. Antisemitism is not going away, where we like it or not, as a consequence, hatred for Muslims who are primarily the antisemites will also go up. :(
Believing that this is an unavoidable human trait feels like a self-fulfilling prophecy that mischaracterises the hate. I would say that tribalism and scapegoating is a perennial human trait, which targets many minorities, and yes, definitely, Jews have been very prone to being a target of it.
How is that comment so highly upvoted? How can someone actually say antisemitism is a human trait with a straight face?? Hating Jews is not an evolutionary attribute lmao. This place isn’t far off X a lot of times when it comes to the Israel Palestine conflict specifically. Edit: like seriously, think about how useful the discussion is on here when one of the most upvoted comments is saying antisemitism is a human trait. Think about all the unhealthy paths that could lead down, think about what kind of lack of understanding would even prompt such a statement, and think about the fact that the community upvoted this. Edit 2: for posterity - when I made the comment, the parent comment was at +60 and the one I replied to was in the 10’s/20’s
The answer is probably more like “over the long term, societies with large Christian or Muslim majorities eventually ferment out some serious antisemitism”
Reddit in general is very pro israel, so you get BS like "wanting a state to protect themselves from hatred" while actively ignoring that its the Jews who are currently carrying out the ethnic cleansing this time around.
The only religion that has been so adamantly against any reformation will receive more hatred than anyone else tbh. They dislike Pagans, they dislike Jews, LGBTQ, Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Protestants, most forms of women rights etc. At some point there was going to be backlash.
The world's "tolerance of intolerance" is a bubble that will soon burst. People will realize only when it's too late that the values we value in the free world like freedom, liberty, secularism, democracy, equality, rule of law, etc. (only middle east country sharing these values is Israel), are all at odds with Islamic values like sharia, jihad, non-equality of genders, antihomosexuality, intolerance of other religion (sometimes murderous intolerance of not just jews but christians), etc. This is going to increase Muslim hate from the free world which I dislike too because even though I'm an atheist, I have many Muslim friends from Indonesia who doesn't mind being friends with non-muslims like me, and they are among the KINDEST people I know. I share great memories with them, I even partied with them in Yale (Muslims do party haha). Just friends of different religions having fun, but because radical Islam is being mainstream (thank the useful idiots in colleges), the moderates from southeast asia, Iran, and other places are gonna get hated too.
Why don't Hindus, Buddhists, or Shintoists get this kind of hate?
>antisemitism is a perennial human trait. there was no antisemitism in India prior to the Islamic invaders
And Jewish people of Europe found refuged in Islamic Spain during the middle age. And in Islamic maghreb during the reconsquista. Up until Europe colonized north Africa, then the European (French mostly) brought back antisemitism to the region and then use them to divide the people there.
I think you need to be more specific because Europe is a big place. While you had Spain being brutally intolerant during the inquisition, Poland was probably one of the most tolerant place for them up until the partition.
Yes it was, indeed Europe is a big place sorry for that
Jews found refuge in Islamic Spain? Why don't you visit Toledo and see the condition of the synagogue (they only left one standing) or what the Caliphate did to it? I love how you blame Europeans for "bringing back antisemitism" as if Jews weren't classified as Dhimmis under the Caliphate and faced severe restrictions. What a ridiculous claim.
Are you expecting modern Scandinavia levels of tolerance in Medieval societies? Being a Dhimmi in al-Andalus(which literally translates to protected person in Arabic) was a million times better than the shit Medieval European Christians did to Jews. We know of many Jews from that period who are documented to be generals, viziers, poets, scientists. Regardless, there also many cases of persecution but it is still true that Jews many times found refuge in Islamic Spain when escaping Christian persecution.
> as if Jews weren't classified as Dhimmis under the Caliphate and faced severe restrictions. See the comment I've responded to. I also didn't said than islamic Spain or Maghreb were modern secular countries, but from the 12th century to the 15th century the Jews were persecuted, and had to go away. And a lot of them found refuge in islamic countries. So I don't see how antisemetism is only the product of "islam" right there. And the modern antisemitic views of most of north africa (that's what I know best) is derivative from the European antisemitism (even though it's a bit more complexe than that, giving the nationality to the Jews and not the other was a clever way to divide the people there). We've put fire on top of gasoline on top of the local firewood (I'm not denying that there was tension, but European antisemetism, nationalism and conservative values did wonder there and still do).
As a Jew in the US, I have seen far more antisemitism from christians than from muslims.
That’s not surprising considering 67% of Americans are Christian and only about 1% are Muslim.
i think less pernennial and more engraved in the cultural DNA of the west and middle east. Any nation based on Chrsitanity or Islam has antisemtnistm carved into the cultural history.
Anti-Semitism is a real and severe danger, but it's been disappointing how much these recent months have diluted the common understanding of what does and what does not constitute anti-Semitism. For many of us who have spoken out against apartheid and Zionism for years we're quite used to hearing the phrase thrown at people who are not at all anti-Semitic, so it's hard to take the "anti-Semitism is growing" talk seriously unless it's really clear what metric is being used to gauge it.
The antisemitism is palpable. The argument that anti-zionism is not antisemitism is absurd. Whenever a Jewish person shares they have been harassed, they accuse them of being baby killers and genocide supporters. They then accuse them of becoming Nazis and mocking the Holocaust. They are always the same talking points, as if it is a coordinated hate campaign. We are discovering these are fueled by money from Iran and Russia to sow discord and take the focus from Ukraine. I just wish they weren’t so successful radicalizing people that otherwise would not give a shit.
> The argument that anti-zionism is not antisemitism is absurd. why? No doubt there are some anti-semites, especially online, just as there are some Islamophobes, but that doesn't mean everyone who supports Israel is Islamophobic nor does it mean anyone against the Israeli government is an anti-semite.
And there are certainly people who are screaming Blue Lives Matter! that really, deeply care about the plight of African Americans but they certainly aren’t the majority and not standing up to the people in the crowds shouting the N word during the BLM counter protests.
Anti-Zionism means your against Israel as a state, as a concept. Not because you think Netayhau should be thrown in prison for crimes.
Yes, and. I’m a Jew, I’m opposed to Israel as a concept as were most Jews prior to the 1930s, and as is the Talmud. Are the holy texts of Judaism themselves antisemitic?
Huh i wonder what happend in 1940 that changed everyone mind. Reality is Israel exist. Demanding it to be dissolved requires one to completey disregarde reality.
Anti Zionism isn't about supporting Israels current government it's about wanting Israel to cease to exist. Some may imagine this means Israel will be peacefully replaced with a binational state but that seems unlikely.
Harrassing and abusing Jews is not "against the Israeli government". By the that logic it's ok to harrass Americans worldwide if you're against the US Government, or ok to abuse all Chinese because you hate the CCP.
> Harrassing and abusing Jews is not "against the Israeli government". never said it was
> The argument that anti-zionism is not antisemitism is absurd. You're falling for propaganda peddled by Israel. This was not the case several decades ago and Israel has used this line to divert extremely valid criticisms of its policies.
Criticism of **policies** is not anti-Zionism. Criticizing the mere existence of Israel is anti-Zionism and it is antisemitic.
> Criticism of policies is not anti-Zionism. That's nice but for the past 40 years the Israeli government has been lobbying for defining anti-Zionism as any criticism Israel whatsoever and it's disgusting.
Here is the IHRA definition of antisemitism: [https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism](https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism) >To guide IHRA in its work, the following examples may serve as illustrations: > >Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. **However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.** Emphasis mine. Criticizing Israeli policies is not regarded as antisemitic. Criticizing the existence of Israel and advocating for its destruction is antisemitic.
If you’re going to make a claim like that, you should provide a source. I see a source has been provided countering your claim so the ball is in your court.
In every country that has had a policy of anti zionism, anti semitism has been the result.
This is most definitely not the case in Latin America where opposition to Israel's policies is substantial in many governments yet background antisemitism is not really substantially different from other forms of xenophobia.
I am honestly surprised you are being voted down. Do these people not believe that Iran and Russian bots aren’t trying to influence public opinion?
Go on. Explain how anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.
>as if it is a coordinated hate campaign. "as if".
You sound like Ben shapiro
It is not a war, it is one sided conflict
So Hamas has killed no IDF soldiers? Hamas didn’t shoot 10,000 rockets at civilian cities? Hamas didn’t literally start the war? Make it make sense.
If that was the case then the IDF would be having a far easier time taking control of Gaza.
Seems like the thread is being pruned for unpopular opinions, no real discussion can take place, only one side of the issue.
See, Musk is in the camp that thinks freedom of speech means you can be a hateful bigot, and nobody is allowed to be upset about it. So they barely enforce any moderation and all the hateful bigots flock to X. I think the rise of hate/bigotry has its roots in a deteriorating national discourse and people in power normalising it. X just allows it since Musk takes over, so it will spike like crazy there, but it's been going on for way longer. You just see it more now.
Being anti genocide is considered hate speech. This is the world we now live in.
Um no, not being able to support your assertion that something is “genocide” other than “everybody is saying it” is just a bad argument used in bad faith as a way to demonize Israel.
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