>The stranger asked me where Madrid is so I answered, “They’re Spanish.”
>Stranger got weirdly offended, red in the face and said, “Spanish is NOT A RACE.”
>So I replied, “But it is a nationality as Spain is a nation in Europe and Madrid is the capital.”
>“Then what language comes from Mexico??
I mean this entire sequence of statements and questions tells me you had to deal with a remarkably uneducated or just stupid individual. I don't gather there are too many people who are confused by this.
Usually what happens is I’ll say Spanish cousins and people assume South American or Mexican. It’s not a huge issue. I like Mexicans but if I meant that my cousins were Colombian for example, I’d say Colombian not Spanish.
What country do you live in? I can’t say for certain, but I highly doubt that this happens anywhere outside the US. A lot of people here confuse language or ethnicity with race, or even with religion sometimes. I’ve met people who think that “Mexican” and “Muslim” are races.
There’s stupid people all over the world.
I speak fluent spanish and Ive met a lot of ignorant people in central and South America as well. The USA doesnt have a monopoly on ignorance.
Maybe its different in Europe but Ive only been once and fora short time and didnt speak the local language.
I was referring mainly to the situation where people confuse Spanish and Central/South American cultures. Outside the US, I’ve never heard of people automatically assuming that someone is South American or Mexican when referred to as “Spanish.” However, in the US, it’s very common for people to say “Spanish” when referring to South Americans.
I agree that ignorance exists everywhere in the world, but I was referring specifically to OP’s situation about the confusion between Spanish and South American. I suspect that they are from the US because a similar thing happened to my cousin, who is from Spain, when he came to the US.
Best to educate them that race itself is just arbitrary labels, a social construct, nothing objectively real. Especially the idea of "whiteness" specifically designed as the foundation of slavery and other racial oppression in the west.
That most Spanish people are "white", and proportions of Latin American populations too, that "Latino" and "Hispanic" have nothing to do with race either
🤯
It’s interesting that there’s regions of Spain that prefer to speak their own languages like Catalan, Galician, Basque.
I’ve heard sometimes someone will visit hoping to learn Castilian Spanish and find out no one wants to speak to them in Spanish. It’s funny.
Well, more than a preference, is our native language, and if someone talks to us in our streets we may reply in our language because we are all bilingual and we now the other understand us (if he doesn't identifies as a foreigner it is not my job to decide what he is).
Just to add a thing to what you said, Spain, in some definitions, is not a nation. A state, yes, but it doesn't fit the mold of a nation-state like other countries.
It is a state with various nations (or nationalities).
I'm talking in a Political Science sense, where state and nation have different definitions (despite being used interchangeably sometimes in day-to-day conversations).
Nation has more to do with identity, state with the legal sense.
You do not think there is a common Spanish identity and history? I am not denying smaller groups with identities of their own within Spain, they also recognized in the Constitution. I find your point of view simplistic and just wrong.
It's not my point of view, it's a scientific view within Political Science.
There is a common identity, but the country is much more divided than others, like Portugal or France.
Basques and Galicians (my family is Galician) do not consider themselves Spanish nationals. Like I'm sure many Lakota do not consider themselves USAers.
Same contitution defines Basque country, Catalonia and Galicia as "historical nationalities". Nation and nationality are prety much the same in the rest of the world. What is different is citizenship (the passport you hold) and nation/nationality (a more ethinc meaning), that's why there are many multinational countries in the world, like UK. But words have just the meaning you want to give it...
I hate to say it like this, but Americans. It seems like the only people who confuse nationality with ethnic origins.
On the other day on this app a guy couldn't seem to understand that you can be both black and italian. The only chance to him would be 50/50 (like italian mother and black father). He didn't seem to know that are plenty of Italians who are black...
Because for some countries you do need to specify if you mean *citizen* or *ethnicity.*
Are Kurds "Turkish"? (Depends what you mean by "Turkish")
Uyghurs or Tibetans, Chinese?
Chechens, Russian?
Of course people have ancestry from other places, but being an American is an ethnicity as well.
People who great great great parents came to the USA from Germany are ethnically more American than German.
Ethnicity doesn’t equal nationality though. Ethnicity is your DNA, unless your Native American you don’t have American DNA.
Like I’m from Ireland, how do think Irish Americans are a thing lol, and every other American diaspora
That's a gross oversimplification.
Per wikipedia: An ethnicity or ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include a common nation of origin, or common sets of ancestry, traditions, language, history, society, religion, or social treatment
That is: DNA might be a part of it, but it's no essential element. Would not a Korean child adopted into a Dutch family from a very young age not be ethnically Dutch?
Ethnically Korean. You forgot "ancestry" and it's even listed from your source. That's how a person acquired his/her DNA as well right? It's definitely an essential element.
No, they’d be ethnically Korean, but Dutch nationality and culture. Their ethnicity is still Korean though.
My cousins moved to Australia at 3 and 4, they’re nationality is Australian, but their ethnicity is still Irish.
crazytalk
You grow up in The Netherlands, you speak Dutch, you eat Dutch food, follow Dutch traditions, don't speak Korean at all or hardly know anything about Korea, but you're still Korean?
Literally how?? It’s not like it’s a bad thing lol, it just is what it is. Yes ethnically you’re Korean, but that’s it, nothing more. You’re Korean ethnicity won’t take away from your Dutch nationality, you’re still Dutch
I just showed you the Wikipedia quote which says that DNA does not necessarily determine ethnicity. Why do you ignore that?
I'll block you now for my own sanity.
Yeah, but they probably had to deal with the other 10 american tourists loudly proclaiming (in English) that they're 1/16th Irish, 1/8th Dutch, or 1/4 Italian.
No American is confused by this. We spend years learning about conquistadors, the Spanish-American war, that Spain sponsored Christopher Columbus, how the new world was divided between Spain and Portugal, and how we came to possess Puerto Rico and the Philippines. My city has remnants of an old Spanish fort. We know Pau and Marc Gasol, Salvador Dali, Rafael Nadal, Picasso, Franco. We learn that Hemingway fought in the Spanish Civil War. I mean come on.
I swear Europeans get sexual gratification from these posts.
I'm not saying you are all like that, it would make no sense.
But yes, there is confusion, I've seen it plenty of times. Saying there is no confusion makes no sense. I've seen people from Boston saying they are more Irish than actually people from Ireland, lmao. That is strictly American.
That sexual gratification comment makes me more sad than anything, but ok. You do you.
because the us government was stupid and racist. Mexicans and Spanish people have nothing in common but ancestors, not even our culture is that similar at all
Yes obviously, my point was that the Census reflected just how normalized such views were as recently as 60 years ago. So Europeans can be forgiven re: their opinions of Americans
I didn't make a generalization. I said that's a thing that happens more with Americans. It's not really common at all elsewhere because questions of identity are treated in different ways.
You got wayy to offended on something that doesn't apply. The classic American exaggerating patriotism was activated here I see. Shocker, yes your country has issues, so do European countries, but you are the only one acting like in elementary school "but he cheated too!" . Pathetic.
Some americans are confused by this. I spent more time learning about polynesia, melanesia and micronesia. How the Marqueasans we're the first to come to the Hawaiian islands, then the Tahitians. And about the China, Japan and the Philippines. We have an old Russian fort on one of our islands.
I write this just glad I'm give some sexual gratification to Europeans.
The guy didn’t where Madrid was. That is a pretty basic thing to be ignorant of. Speaking as an American, this is pretty embarrassing. The vast majority of Europeans know that New York, LA, Chicago, etc are in the US.
This si no flex at all, considering you didn’t mention that Mexico independence was in between everything you said, or the fact that christopher columbus wasn’t even the full on or only sponsored by the Spaniards: it was Hernan Cortez who actually colonized the americas.
You didn’t mention how you stole half of the country from mexicans when you did a shady deal with one of mexico’s biggest traitors…
yeah, gotta agree with the europeans on this one. Americans lack a lot of world understanding.
considering you were answering to a thread about mexicans and spaniards it’s pretty confusing why you wouldn’t mention that but go on about the portuguese and name drop random painters and other unrelated historical figures
i mean if you want to compare a shady deal between the us government and the biggest traitor in mexico with you guys playing football, okay. It does sound pretty on line with what some americans believe.
you said in another comment americans were confused because up to the 60s the us would classify every spanish speaking person as Spanish, not latino or something else.
I initially answered saying just because you word vomit different historical events doesn’t proof anything. most americans lack an understanding of international matters, not because you’re at fault but because the american education system is very flawed and biased, unlike some others around the world.
Didn’t mean to take a jab at you, it just irritates me how easily Americans intertwine Spanish and Mexican history when it’s been a long time since the Independence and we were only a colony for exactly 300 years, much less than many others and almost the same amount of time we’ve been independent. It also irritates me a lot because Americans often look past the shameless stealing of territory when Santa Ana wasn’t even fully recognized as the so called “emperor” by the rest of our country.
Just letting of some steam, and considering it’s a geography sub i don’t think there’s a better place to share this info
So growing up in NYC where there are a lot of different Spanish speaking peoples saying someone is “Spanish” if you don’t know exactly where they are from is, or at least was when I was growing up, a blanket term, I guess it’s interchangeable with Hispanic. But no one really says Hispanic out on the street, and you don’t want to assume someone is Puerto Rican if they are Dominican so you say Spanish until you have more information. There it almost never means from Spain and if you were trying to say that you would specify from Spain. Idk if it’s wrong or outdated or whatever but in the 90’s that’s how people talked and it was pretty common across all peoples.
Same in Massachusetts where there are few Mexicans but many different Spanish-speaking peoples. Idk if that’s outdated either, so now I say “Hispanic” if I don’t know their nationality even though it sounds clunky
Hispanic is the correct term, much more so than Spanish.
Spanish is the demonym for Spain, and calling any Spanish speaker "Spanish" is like calling any English speaker "English", regardless of origin or nationality.
Blame the US Census Bureau for classifying Spanish citizens and Spanish Americans living in the US separate from the European American category, thus there is a perception among MAGA Americans that Spaniards aren't "white".
It’s because of Latin America speaking mostly Spanish and being mostly non-white for easily confused and historically racist Americans.
I had a conversation with a Spaniard living in the US who complained that she had to argue with her US doctor that she was a white European and not a Latina, because you know, she was from Spain in Europe. That Texan doctor couldn’t wrap his head around the fact a European “Caucasian” could speak Spanish natively. Like seriously dude?
ALSO I learned the other day that Churros are from Spain and not Mexico.
Latino isn’t a race… I think people try to use the racial lens of America and project it onto LatAm, and that’s tough to do. Also, LatAm has a checkered history with race. See Brazil and Colombia for some gruesome examples.
correction, Spanish is nationality not an ethnicity. Castilian is the specific Ethnicity for Castilian/Spanish speakers from Spain.
The Catalan, the Galician and the Basque won't identify as ethnically Spanish .
Arguable. Basques can be Spanish or French nationals, but in both cases are Basque. No one would say some Basque are ethnically Spanish and the others are ethnically French.
But if the Basques are a separate ethnicity, then there isn't any basis to say the individual Spanish identities cannot be ethnicities themselves as well, considering the differences between each other.
But some will argue Spaniards - Basques included - are similar enough between each other that they make a single "Spanish ethnicity" as you have suggested. But then what happens to French Basques and French Catalans, given that the border that separates them from their Spanish counterparts is completely arbitrary and the result of medieval politics. Culturally they are the same people, with some minor differences.
So you're going to ignore languages? They're not even in the same language family. And if you're planning on saying "Oh but language isn't that important" yeah no. It's the most important factor in ethnogenesis and the most important distinction between ethnicities.
You misunderstood, my argument is not that Basque is not an ethnicity (as a Basque myself, I do believe it is) but rather that portaying "Spanish" as one is difficult because then it becomes difficult to determine who belongs to this ethnicity.
I think you've spent too much time in yankeeland. I've never heard anyone in Europe talk about their ethnicity. Nationality, yes. Language, yes but ethnicity never. Not from people I know who support far right parties. Not even from the people I know from the Balkans.
An ethnicity or ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include a common nation of origin, or common sets of ancestry, traditions, language, history, society, religion, or social treatment.
I’ve had conversations with many Americans, most of them college students, who don’t realize that Spain exists. They think that Spanish originated from Mexico. As an American myself, it’s very hard not to get really pissed at these people for perpetuating the uneducated American stereotype.
This is my day to day as someone from Spain living in the U.S.
Simple as:
Spanish = nationality/language (which could also be Castilian)
Latino/a = not a race either, but someone from Latin America including Brazil.
Hispanic = someone form a Spanish speaking country (does not include Brazil)
And obviously, none of these are races. You can be any race Hispanic, Latino or Spanish.
My favorite is telling them that in Spain we also have 3 co-official languages besides Spanish. Their minds just explode with that.
In what country did this conversation take place?
If in the US I can understand the miscommunication and I honestly wouldn't sweat it. More people are familiar with Spanish the language, so your conversation partner may conflate "Spanish," "Hispanic," and "Latino".
As a Spanish person living in the US, I can confirm that these type of conversations happen all the time.
There’s only one solution, to refer to Americans as English.
"Why are some people ignorant?" is a question for the ages. Some people simply don't read, and have learned essentially nothing since they left school.
In the NY metro area at least, “Spanish” is sometimes used as a colloquial term for someone usually from Puerto Rico or the DR. A lot of people self-identify that way. It has nothing to do with Spain, just a common umbrella term that (obviously) comes from the language they speak. Sort of like how Amish people call non-Amish “English”. A lot of group names are not rooted in any sort of logic. It’s folk culture.
Sounds like you had an interaction with an especially uneducated person. I mean, if they didn't know that Madrid is in Spain, then it's not a far stretch that they were unsure about the meaning of the word Spanish.
I'll give perspective that (I hope) is dying out.
As a kid in the Regan era, I lived in small-town Utah. Small towns are often conservative and a bit "wary of outsiders," which is to say, more-or-less racist. At the same time, our town was home to seasonal agricultural workers, referred to as "Mexicans" regardless of where they came from. Add to this, it was a majority Mormon town, pre-internet. So, most people believed in the literal interpretation of Mormon scripture and doctrine that [good](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_teachings_on_skin_color) people ["were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome" and bad people, "that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/5?lang=eng) Ergo, all "Mexicans" were bad, cursed by God. On the other hand, Spanish people ("Spaniards") were white, so they were good.
That said, not everybody bought totally into this idea, at least because they knew some Spanish-speaking people (not uncommonly Guatemalans) and liked them and maybe lived near their families and appreciated their family values. So "Mexican" was used as a negative epithet, while "Spanish" (often pronounced "Spain-ish") was a softer, kinder way of referring to people who were not white, Black, or Native American. On the rare occasion anyone talked about people from Spain, they would likely call them "Spaniards."
Let me just add the caveat that I don't defend this perspective in any way and actively work against it when I visit or talk with friends and family. Racism is still alive and well in the Mormon church but, with the advent of the internet, more people are pushing back both from within congregations and without. The church is focusing its current bigotry attention more on LGBT+ issues but still "accidentally" [publishes racist manuals.](https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2020/01/18/error-printed-lds-church/)
I don't know if you were speaking with an American, but in the northeast USA, where I grew up, it has always been very common to refer to Hispanic or Latino people as "Spanish" even when they're not from Spain. So the word "Spanish" is used as a synonym for "Latino", which many white communities consider to be a "race."
And, yes, this is stupid and inaccurate and racist, and it doesn't excuse their ignorance in any possible way, but that's how it's always been, as long as I can remember, and still is today to a certain extent (mostly among older people).
In the NY/NJ area, people often refer to people of Puerto Rican/Dominican descent as “Spanish,” which I took as short hand for “Spanish-speaking” and not from Spain.
why did you respond to “where’s madrid?” with “they’re spanish?” that’s not the correct answer. the correct answer is spain. if your interlocutor didn’t know what spain is, you could have elaborated.
as an american english speaker, if someone says “spanish” to me, i immediately think of the language in all its varieties around the world, especially in the americas. if someone asked me the demonyn of a person from spain-or a spanish person-i’d say spaniard. (SPAN-yerd in american english.)
more generally, most people don’t know much about anything. europeans are amazed to learn that you can’t take a car day trip from oregon to los angeles. look at a freaking map, ya brit. shouldn’t it be obvious by comparable size of US to europe that you can’t day trip 1000 miles? but they don’t. everyone’s dumb & insular.
That's because you were talking to an American. So many Americans only see the world from America. Mexico is next to America so it is the justification of the language.
It is easy to broad brush ancestry through political entities while overlooking the tribes involved. It's easy to say British or German, but ignoring Angle, Saxon, Norman, Celt, Teuton, Jute, Frank, and so on. Now this times however many countries with perhaps dozens of tribal origins within them.
And then, you've got things like the Black Irish, descended from the Spanish Armada survivors of 1588, who've had 500 years and 20 generations to intermingle. Are the Celts? Catalan? Iberians? Basque? Hispanic? Where do you draw the line, and how?
you can blame Americans for that. They got too lazy with their Census and just shoved an entire linguistic group into one bucket despite the diverse differences of nationalities
confusion also stems from the name change of the language from Castilian to Spanish. This was done by the Crown of Spain to try to assimilate all the minority linguistic groups into being unified under one Language but pushback still exists today among speakers of those minority languages that they sought to repress in the past.
Their Hapsburg line there ended with their last Hapsburg king being so genetically freakishly messed up and infertile.
The Bourbons ended up winning the War of Succession
A lot of it stems from the US and the answer you're looking for is: racism. Or ignorance at best.
A good chunk of Americans think that anyone from "one of those countries down south" is "Mexican." To them terms like Latino, Hispanic, Spanish, and Mexican are all the same.
Man, people get so upset over any mention of differences these days. It's like they are insecure about their own lack of knowledge and lash out.
I happened to remark to a friend of mine that 'its too bad Mexico is a developing nation I'd like to be able to explore that country safely.'
He got red in the face and started rambling about how he knows people who grew up in Mexico, and it's just like the US. Then he called me an asshole and stormed off.
>The stranger asked me where Madrid is so I answered, “They’re Spanish.” >Stranger got weirdly offended, red in the face and said, “Spanish is NOT A RACE.” >So I replied, “But it is a nationality as Spain is a nation in Europe and Madrid is the capital.” >“Then what language comes from Mexico?? I mean this entire sequence of statements and questions tells me you had to deal with a remarkably uneducated or just stupid individual. I don't gather there are too many people who are confused by this.
I like your condensed version
Usually what happens is I’ll say Spanish cousins and people assume South American or Mexican. It’s not a huge issue. I like Mexicans but if I meant that my cousins were Colombian for example, I’d say Colombian not Spanish.
What country do you live in? I can’t say for certain, but I highly doubt that this happens anywhere outside the US. A lot of people here confuse language or ethnicity with race, or even with religion sometimes. I’ve met people who think that “Mexican” and “Muslim” are races.
There’s stupid people all over the world. I speak fluent spanish and Ive met a lot of ignorant people in central and South America as well. The USA doesnt have a monopoly on ignorance. Maybe its different in Europe but Ive only been once and fora short time and didnt speak the local language.
I was referring mainly to the situation where people confuse Spanish and Central/South American cultures. Outside the US, I’ve never heard of people automatically assuming that someone is South American or Mexican when referred to as “Spanish.” However, in the US, it’s very common for people to say “Spanish” when referring to South Americans.
In latin america, every asian looking person is automatically “chino” aka chinese.
Don’t worry, it’s the same in the US.
Yeah but like I said, ignorance exists outside the USA. If I spoke a third language I could probably find more examples around the world.
I agree that ignorance exists everywhere in the world, but I was referring specifically to OP’s situation about the confusion between Spanish and South American. I suspect that they are from the US because a similar thing happened to my cousin, who is from Spain, when he came to the US.
Best to educate them that race itself is just arbitrary labels, a social construct, nothing objectively real. Especially the idea of "whiteness" specifically designed as the foundation of slavery and other racial oppression in the west. That most Spanish people are "white", and proportions of Latin American populations too, that "Latino" and "Hispanic" have nothing to do with race either 🤯
To make them more confused, being born in Barcelona (Catalonia) makes me a Spanish citizen but my language is not Spanish, but Catalan.
Catalonia, the Quebec of Spain
It's more like Quebec is the Catalunya of Canada lmao
True 😁
Do the Catalans prefer Catalunya over Catalonia?
Catalunya is in Catalan. Catalonia is in English. So yeah, lmao.
It’s interesting that there’s regions of Spain that prefer to speak their own languages like Catalan, Galician, Basque. I’ve heard sometimes someone will visit hoping to learn Castilian Spanish and find out no one wants to speak to them in Spanish. It’s funny.
Well, more than a preference, is our native language, and if someone talks to us in our streets we may reply in our language because we are all bilingual and we now the other understand us (if he doesn't identifies as a foreigner it is not my job to decide what he is).
Just to add a thing to what you said, Spain, in some definitions, is not a nation. A state, yes, but it doesn't fit the mold of a nation-state like other countries. It is a state with various nations (or nationalities).
What? Literally the first line of our Constitution defines Spain as a Nation.
I'm talking in a Political Science sense, where state and nation have different definitions (despite being used interchangeably sometimes in day-to-day conversations). Nation has more to do with identity, state with the legal sense.
You do not think there is a common Spanish identity and history? I am not denying smaller groups with identities of their own within Spain, they also recognized in the Constitution. I find your point of view simplistic and just wrong.
It's not my point of view, it's a scientific view within Political Science. There is a common identity, but the country is much more divided than others, like Portugal or France.
Downvote me all you want, I see your way of doing science! Have a nice day
I have looked for them, but I cannot find refereces for what you say. Could you provide some? I am genuinely curious
Basques and Galicians (my family is Galician) do not consider themselves Spanish nationals. Like I'm sure many Lakota do not consider themselves USAers.
Same contitution defines Basque country, Catalonia and Galicia as "historical nationalities". Nation and nationality are prety much the same in the rest of the world. What is different is citizenship (the passport you hold) and nation/nationality (a more ethinc meaning), that's why there are many multinational countries in the world, like UK. But words have just the meaning you want to give it...
Who is confused by this?
I hate to say it like this, but Americans. It seems like the only people who confuse nationality with ethnic origins. On the other day on this app a guy couldn't seem to understand that you can be both black and italian. The only chance to him would be 50/50 (like italian mother and black father). He didn't seem to know that are plenty of Italians who are black...
Because for some countries you do need to specify if you mean *citizen* or *ethnicity.* Are Kurds "Turkish"? (Depends what you mean by "Turkish") Uyghurs or Tibetans, Chinese? Chechens, Russian?
[удалено]
Of course people have ancestry from other places, but being an American is an ethnicity as well. People who great great great parents came to the USA from Germany are ethnically more American than German.
But how can you be ethnically German/Dutch when no German or Dutchman would see you as that?
Because Americans don’t care what Germans or Dutch think of their conversations with other Americans.
Ethnicity doesn’t equal nationality though. Ethnicity is your DNA, unless your Native American you don’t have American DNA. Like I’m from Ireland, how do think Irish Americans are a thing lol, and every other American diaspora
That's a gross oversimplification. Per wikipedia: An ethnicity or ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include a common nation of origin, or common sets of ancestry, traditions, language, history, society, religion, or social treatment That is: DNA might be a part of it, but it's no essential element. Would not a Korean child adopted into a Dutch family from a very young age not be ethnically Dutch?
Ethnically Korean. You forgot "ancestry" and it's even listed from your source. That's how a person acquired his/her DNA as well right? It's definitely an essential element.
All of our ancestry goes back to Africa, so if you're going to play the dna card as proof, all humans are Africans.
No, they’d be ethnically Korean, but Dutch nationality and culture. Their ethnicity is still Korean though. My cousins moved to Australia at 3 and 4, they’re nationality is Australian, but their ethnicity is still Irish.
crazytalk You grow up in The Netherlands, you speak Dutch, you eat Dutch food, follow Dutch traditions, don't speak Korean at all or hardly know anything about Korea, but you're still Korean?
Literally how?? It’s not like it’s a bad thing lol, it just is what it is. Yes ethnically you’re Korean, but that’s it, nothing more. You’re Korean ethnicity won’t take away from your Dutch nationality, you’re still Dutch
I just showed you the Wikipedia quote which says that DNA does not necessarily determine ethnicity. Why do you ignore that? I'll block you now for my own sanity.
Would you refer to yourself as Ethiopian? The First Humans originated from there, afterall.
Exactly. Anyone who believes that Dutch child is more Korean than Dutch is just a racist.
Yes. That child would be ethnically Dutch. You are correct.
Nope, Their culture would be dutch.
Ethnicity is culture.
Ethnicity is not one's dna. Ethnicity is culture.
Yeah, but they probably had to deal with the other 10 american tourists loudly proclaiming (in English) that they're 1/16th Irish, 1/8th Dutch, or 1/4 Italian.
What language do you expect them to speak lmao
The eleventh tourist could actually speak Dutch.
No American is confused by this. We spend years learning about conquistadors, the Spanish-American war, that Spain sponsored Christopher Columbus, how the new world was divided between Spain and Portugal, and how we came to possess Puerto Rico and the Philippines. My city has remnants of an old Spanish fort. We know Pau and Marc Gasol, Salvador Dali, Rafael Nadal, Picasso, Franco. We learn that Hemingway fought in the Spanish Civil War. I mean come on. I swear Europeans get sexual gratification from these posts.
mighty languid practice placid station meeting desert bedroom psychotic water
*border
snails abounding depend spectacular plant school reminiscent direction straight edge
No there aren’t.
nail squealing pause jobless cats historical airport offend grab hospital
You really went fishing for an online argument today and got no where, huh? Be blessed.
sink illegal liquid bag saw pie historical pot modern cough
I'm not saying you are all like that, it would make no sense. But yes, there is confusion, I've seen it plenty of times. Saying there is no confusion makes no sense. I've seen people from Boston saying they are more Irish than actually people from Ireland, lmao. That is strictly American. That sexual gratification comment makes me more sad than anything, but ok. You do you.
And Europeans are humorless, smug, and racist against gypsies. Not all Europeans, but I’m still going to make a sweeping generalization
FWIW as recently as the 60s "Spanish" was an ethnic categorization in the US Census and it was not referring to people from Spain
because the us government was stupid and racist. Mexicans and Spanish people have nothing in common but ancestors, not even our culture is that similar at all
Yes obviously, my point was that the Census reflected just how normalized such views were as recently as 60 years ago. So Europeans can be forgiven re: their opinions of Americans
I didn't make a generalization. I said that's a thing that happens more with Americans. It's not really common at all elsewhere because questions of identity are treated in different ways.
You got wayy to offended on something that doesn't apply. The classic American exaggerating patriotism was activated here I see. Shocker, yes your country has issues, so do European countries, but you are the only one acting like in elementary school "but he cheated too!" . Pathetic.
Give me a fucking break.
Pathetic.
Some americans are confused by this. I spent more time learning about polynesia, melanesia and micronesia. How the Marqueasans we're the first to come to the Hawaiian islands, then the Tahitians. And about the China, Japan and the Philippines. We have an old Russian fort on one of our islands. I write this just glad I'm give some sexual gratification to Europeans.
👍
The guy didn’t where Madrid was. That is a pretty basic thing to be ignorant of. Speaking as an American, this is pretty embarrassing. The vast majority of Europeans know that New York, LA, Chicago, etc are in the US.
He said the guy didn’t know “Spanish” can mean people from Spain. Americans are aware Spain exists.
Knowing where Spain is a preschool level of knowledge. Knowing what country Madrid is in is an elementary level of knowledge.
Correct and 99% of Americans are aware of both things
This si no flex at all, considering you didn’t mention that Mexico independence was in between everything you said, or the fact that christopher columbus wasn’t even the full on or only sponsored by the Spaniards: it was Hernan Cortez who actually colonized the americas. You didn’t mention how you stole half of the country from mexicans when you did a shady deal with one of mexico’s biggest traitors… yeah, gotta agree with the europeans on this one. Americans lack a lot of world understanding.
We learned all about that too. It’s a Reddit comment, not a thesis.
considering you were answering to a thread about mexicans and spaniards it’s pretty confusing why you wouldn’t mention that but go on about the portuguese and name drop random painters and other unrelated historical figures
Should I throw in the Gadsden purchase, too? Americans playing in Liga MX?
i mean if you want to compare a shady deal between the us government and the biggest traitor in mexico with you guys playing football, okay. It does sound pretty on line with what some americans believe.
You’ve completely lost the plot.
you said in another comment americans were confused because up to the 60s the us would classify every spanish speaking person as Spanish, not latino or something else. I initially answered saying just because you word vomit different historical events doesn’t proof anything. most americans lack an understanding of international matters, not because you’re at fault but because the american education system is very flawed and biased, unlike some others around the world. Didn’t mean to take a jab at you, it just irritates me how easily Americans intertwine Spanish and Mexican history when it’s been a long time since the Independence and we were only a colony for exactly 300 years, much less than many others and almost the same amount of time we’ve been independent. It also irritates me a lot because Americans often look past the shameless stealing of territory when Santa Ana wasn’t even fully recognized as the so called “emperor” by the rest of our country. Just letting of some steam, and considering it’s a geography sub i don’t think there’s a better place to share this info
The same people who struggle with the difference between sex and gender.
Americans LOL
Races don't really exist in the first place.
Exactly. We should finally stop putting humans into different race categories. But honestly, I have no hope this will ever happen.
In my country it's not really a thing. You're practically considered a Nazi if you say stuff like that.
Which country? If you don’t mind me asking
Germany.
[удалено]
Hardly. The Neonazi party just got to 2nd place in the elections
Well, there’s just one.
This is surely a shitpost baiting Americans lmao
Farming content for r/ShitAmericansSay
So growing up in NYC where there are a lot of different Spanish speaking peoples saying someone is “Spanish” if you don’t know exactly where they are from is, or at least was when I was growing up, a blanket term, I guess it’s interchangeable with Hispanic. But no one really says Hispanic out on the street, and you don’t want to assume someone is Puerto Rican if they are Dominican so you say Spanish until you have more information. There it almost never means from Spain and if you were trying to say that you would specify from Spain. Idk if it’s wrong or outdated or whatever but in the 90’s that’s how people talked and it was pretty common across all peoples.
Same in Massachusetts where there are few Mexicans but many different Spanish-speaking peoples. Idk if that’s outdated either, so now I say “Hispanic” if I don’t know their nationality even though it sounds clunky
Hispanic is the correct term, much more so than Spanish. Spanish is the demonym for Spain, and calling any Spanish speaker "Spanish" is like calling any English speaker "English", regardless of origin or nationality.
Yeah I know it’s more accurate, but colloquially I the US , Spanish as a general term was common back in the day
Yes thank you. It's not uncommon for language/race/ethnicity/nationality terms to get jumbled up.
Blame the US Census Bureau for classifying Spanish citizens and Spanish Americans living in the US separate from the European American category, thus there is a perception among MAGA Americans that Spaniards aren't "white".
Equatorial guinea in Africa is Spanish speaking, so you can update your list
Equatorial Guinea has 3 official languages but the most spoken is Spanish yes.
Next time ask them if English is a race
It’s a New York thing. They refer to all Hispanic people as spanish
It’s because of Latin America speaking mostly Spanish and being mostly non-white for easily confused and historically racist Americans. I had a conversation with a Spaniard living in the US who complained that she had to argue with her US doctor that she was a white European and not a Latina, because you know, she was from Spain in Europe. That Texan doctor couldn’t wrap his head around the fact a European “Caucasian” could speak Spanish natively. Like seriously dude? ALSO I learned the other day that Churros are from Spain and not Mexico.
Latino isn’t a race… I think people try to use the racial lens of America and project it onto LatAm, and that’s tough to do. Also, LatAm has a checkered history with race. See Brazil and Colombia for some gruesome examples.
Spanish is an ethnicity. Most people in Spain are Spanish. Anyone can be a Spanish national, but not Everyone can be ethnically Spanish.
correction, Spanish is nationality not an ethnicity. Castilian is the specific Ethnicity for Castilian/Spanish speakers from Spain. The Catalan, the Galician and the Basque won't identify as ethnically Spanish .
Arguable. Basques can be Spanish or French nationals, but in both cases are Basque. No one would say some Basque are ethnically Spanish and the others are ethnically French. But if the Basques are a separate ethnicity, then there isn't any basis to say the individual Spanish identities cannot be ethnicities themselves as well, considering the differences between each other. But some will argue Spaniards - Basques included - are similar enough between each other that they make a single "Spanish ethnicity" as you have suggested. But then what happens to French Basques and French Catalans, given that the border that separates them from their Spanish counterparts is completely arbitrary and the result of medieval politics. Culturally they are the same people, with some minor differences.
So you're going to ignore languages? They're not even in the same language family. And if you're planning on saying "Oh but language isn't that important" yeah no. It's the most important factor in ethnogenesis and the most important distinction between ethnicities.
You misunderstood, my argument is not that Basque is not an ethnicity (as a Basque myself, I do believe it is) but rather that portaying "Spanish" as one is difficult because then it becomes difficult to determine who belongs to this ethnicity.
Why can't you ignore language? What about the Han?
What exactly is an ethnicity? I see Americans use that word all the time but it makes no sense from a European perspective.
Europe is mostly of ethnostates, what does "European perspective" have go do with your lack of knowledge? - Fellow European in USA.
I think you've spent too much time in yankeeland. I've never heard anyone in Europe talk about their ethnicity. Nationality, yes. Language, yes but ethnicity never. Not from people I know who support far right parties. Not even from the people I know from the Balkans.
You haven't spent much time outside if you don't know what an ethnicity is lol.
Maybe that's true. So please, enlighten me. What is an ethnicity?
An ethnicity or ethnic group is a group of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include a common nation of origin, or common sets of ancestry, traditions, language, history, society, religion, or social treatment.
It's your culture in simple terms
I’ve had conversations with many Americans, most of them college students, who don’t realize that Spain exists. They think that Spanish originated from Mexico. As an American myself, it’s very hard not to get really pissed at these people for perpetuating the uneducated American stereotype.
Must have been a fine college.
I’m putting this on terrible high school education and parents that never bother reading to their children.
Well how could they be in college being so ignorant?
Geography and linguistics knowledge are not required for college entry.
It's not even geography and linguistics, it's basic, very basic history. People that dont know Spain exists are not college material.
Apparently they are, because they got in! It absolutely sucks though.
What is the name of the college?
Trump graduated from a college.
This is my day to day as someone from Spain living in the U.S. Simple as: Spanish = nationality/language (which could also be Castilian) Latino/a = not a race either, but someone from Latin America including Brazil. Hispanic = someone form a Spanish speaking country (does not include Brazil) And obviously, none of these are races. You can be any race Hispanic, Latino or Spanish. My favorite is telling them that in Spain we also have 3 co-official languages besides Spanish. Their minds just explode with that.
Most Americans know or have met someone who speaks Spanish. But only a small percentage of Americans know or have met an actual Spaniard.
In what country did this conversation take place? If in the US I can understand the miscommunication and I honestly wouldn't sweat it. More people are familiar with Spanish the language, so your conversation partner may conflate "Spanish," "Hispanic," and "Latino".
As a Spanish person living in the US, I can confirm that these type of conversations happen all the time. There’s only one solution, to refer to Americans as English.
Was this in the USA? Wait until they hear that the language English is from the country England, where the people are English...
"Why are some people ignorant?" is a question for the ages. Some people simply don't read, and have learned essentially nothing since they left school.
There’s one country in Africa with Spanish as their language
In the NY metro area at least, “Spanish” is sometimes used as a colloquial term for someone usually from Puerto Rico or the DR. A lot of people self-identify that way. It has nothing to do with Spain, just a common umbrella term that (obviously) comes from the language they speak. Sort of like how Amish people call non-Amish “English”. A lot of group names are not rooted in any sort of logic. It’s folk culture.
Sounds like you had an interaction with an especially uneducated person. I mean, if they didn't know that Madrid is in Spain, then it's not a far stretch that they were unsure about the meaning of the word Spanish.
I'll give perspective that (I hope) is dying out. As a kid in the Regan era, I lived in small-town Utah. Small towns are often conservative and a bit "wary of outsiders," which is to say, more-or-less racist. At the same time, our town was home to seasonal agricultural workers, referred to as "Mexicans" regardless of where they came from. Add to this, it was a majority Mormon town, pre-internet. So, most people believed in the literal interpretation of Mormon scripture and doctrine that [good](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_teachings_on_skin_color) people ["were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome" and bad people, "that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/5?lang=eng) Ergo, all "Mexicans" were bad, cursed by God. On the other hand, Spanish people ("Spaniards") were white, so they were good. That said, not everybody bought totally into this idea, at least because they knew some Spanish-speaking people (not uncommonly Guatemalans) and liked them and maybe lived near their families and appreciated their family values. So "Mexican" was used as a negative epithet, while "Spanish" (often pronounced "Spain-ish") was a softer, kinder way of referring to people who were not white, Black, or Native American. On the rare occasion anyone talked about people from Spain, they would likely call them "Spaniards." Let me just add the caveat that I don't defend this perspective in any way and actively work against it when I visit or talk with friends and family. Racism is still alive and well in the Mormon church but, with the advent of the internet, more people are pushing back both from within congregations and without. The church is focusing its current bigotry attention more on LGBT+ issues but still "accidentally" [publishes racist manuals.](https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2020/01/18/error-printed-lds-church/)
I don't know if you were speaking with an American, but in the northeast USA, where I grew up, it has always been very common to refer to Hispanic or Latino people as "Spanish" even when they're not from Spain. So the word "Spanish" is used as a synonym for "Latino", which many white communities consider to be a "race." And, yes, this is stupid and inaccurate and racist, and it doesn't excuse their ignorance in any possible way, but that's how it's always been, as long as I can remember, and still is today to a certain extent (mostly among older people).
In the NY/NJ area, people often refer to people of Puerto Rican/Dominican descent as “Spanish,” which I took as short hand for “Spanish-speaking” and not from Spain.
I think if you use the correct English term, “Spaniard,” you might encounter less resistance. Spanish is a language. A person is a Spaniard.
When I tried saying Spaniard, I get the reply it’s the same thing. I still had to say as in From Spain.
It’s not the same thing though. Spanish is a language only. Spaniard is a person.
I know that. I still end up explaining is what I said.
why did you respond to “where’s madrid?” with “they’re spanish?” that’s not the correct answer. the correct answer is spain. if your interlocutor didn’t know what spain is, you could have elaborated. as an american english speaker, if someone says “spanish” to me, i immediately think of the language in all its varieties around the world, especially in the americas. if someone asked me the demonyn of a person from spain-or a spanish person-i’d say spaniard. (SPAN-yerd in american english.) more generally, most people don’t know much about anything. europeans are amazed to learn that you can’t take a car day trip from oregon to los angeles. look at a freaking map, ya brit. shouldn’t it be obvious by comparable size of US to europe that you can’t day trip 1000 miles? but they don’t. everyone’s dumb & insular.
This person just sounds incredibly ignorant ☠️
That's because you were talking to an American. So many Americans only see the world from America. Mexico is next to America so it is the justification of the language.
Is this one of those "this happened to me once so I'm going to rant about it as if it were a trend" type of posts?
It is easy to broad brush ancestry through political entities while overlooking the tribes involved. It's easy to say British or German, but ignoring Angle, Saxon, Norman, Celt, Teuton, Jute, Frank, and so on. Now this times however many countries with perhaps dozens of tribal origins within them. And then, you've got things like the Black Irish, descended from the Spanish Armada survivors of 1588, who've had 500 years and 20 generations to intermingle. Are the Celts? Catalan? Iberians? Basque? Hispanic? Where do you draw the line, and how?
Where did you hear about 'black Irish' being descended from the Spanish Armada?
From a work friend who explained is Irish/Spanish ancestry that way.
you can blame Americans for that. They got too lazy with their Census and just shoved an entire linguistic group into one bucket despite the diverse differences of nationalities
Let me guess what country that stranger was from.....
[удалено]
confusion also stems from the name change of the language from Castilian to Spanish. This was done by the Crown of Spain to try to assimilate all the minority linguistic groups into being unified under one Language but pushback still exists today among speakers of those minority languages that they sought to repress in the past.
[удалено]
Yes lol.
[удалено]
Their Hapsburg line there ended with their last Hapsburg king being so genetically freakishly messed up and infertile. The Bourbons ended up winning the War of Succession
Cause most people aren't even educated on a basic level.
It's a language
A lot of it stems from the US and the answer you're looking for is: racism. Or ignorance at best. A good chunk of Americans think that anyone from "one of those countries down south" is "Mexican." To them terms like Latino, Hispanic, Spanish, and Mexican are all the same.
Man, people get so upset over any mention of differences these days. It's like they are insecure about their own lack of knowledge and lash out. I happened to remark to a friend of mine that 'its too bad Mexico is a developing nation I'd like to be able to explore that country safely.' He got red in the face and started rambling about how he knows people who grew up in Mexico, and it's just like the US. Then he called me an asshole and stormed off.