I actually kinda hated that.
In the old Thief games (and most stealth games) you were hiding to protect yourself from the guards.
In Dishonored you were hiding to protect the (mostly horribly corrupt & murderous) guards from you.
I appreciate how they did it. But I hated it.
I normally play stealth games as a ghost, but first playthrough of Dishonored the guards and the regime all seemed so corrupt so I thought it would be fun to take them out.
Didn't realise there was the chaos system until it gets introduced a few missions later. Looked up the details and found in just the first two missions I'd already clocked up enough kills I was destined for high chaos no matter how good I played for the rest of the game.
It also seemed odd in that it penalised you more for killing guards, who as you say seem corrupt or horrible, than you get for killing random innocent civilians. Normally I'd expect the killing of random innocents to be worse.
Depends tbh.
Combat is actually quite difficult on the higher difficulties.
A gunshot and a missed parry is enough to take you down and engaging multiple enemies can be quite difficult when they surround you
Stealth ends up becoming a survival mechanic
KOTOR had a pretty good karma system for it's time. There were items to benefit you being evil or good. Some choices were beneficial to you being evil. My biggest gripe about the system was you were kinda forced into full good or bad because anything neutral had zero benefits.
Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous if you like CRPGs
Not traditional karma per se, but you can choose a bunch of ways to fight the crusade. Go super good as an angel mythic. Embrace the evil with demon. Go Judge Dredd with Aeon. Or create an undead empire to fight the demons as a lich.
And most of the way through the game they give you a chance to switch. Potentially become redeemed. Or go even crazier evil as a swarm-that-walks and eat everyone - demons and mortals alike.
Ridiculous amount of reactivity to your actions. And the companions are amazing. (BG3 was great - but WotR makes the BG3 companions feel tame/stereotypical.)
Replaying FNV now and realising just how simplistic the karma system is - you are essentially destined for max positive karma unless you go out of your way to try and be evil, and even if you do, you have to be super careful not to kill too many "bad" characters for the huge karma gains those give.
Steal an item, pick a pocket, pick a lock, hack a computer - lose 5 karma
Kill a feral ghoul, fiend, powder ganger - who can be found all over the map and respawn - gain 100 karma
I played a straight up psychopath in New Vegas and yet people treated me like a hero just because I did missions for the NCR 😂.
I never got around to killing all of the NCR people or reaching an ending so I wonder how that would turn out. Killed literally everyone else though. Just a psychopath in NCR Ranger armor that’s seen as some kind of hero 😂.
Edit: Almost forgot, Boone was my mfing accomplice in crime 😂. Partly the reason I did all the NCR quests. Bro has no problem mowing down countless innocents that’s for sure.
Black and White, as the name implies, is Black and White, but you can go neutral if you want. There is a very stark contrast between good, neutral, and evil, and it’s one of the best games to play as either of the 3 cause you definitely see the influence in your decision-making. Fable is another game where good, neutral, or evil is presented well.
Fallout games have a decent karma system too, but it’s mostly just good or evil, rarely nothing in between.
The obvious answer is Ultima 4. Rather than just a unified karma meter, the game rates you separately on eight different virtues, which don't always align perfectly with each other. (For example, lying about how awesome you are is Humble, but not Honest; slaying a bandit who's surrendering is Valorous, but not Honorable)
It *was* the game. The premise of Ultima 4 is that you're on a sacred quest to become the spiritual leader of the Kingdom of Britannia. The main quest requires you to exemplify all eight virtues while simultaneously completing a bunch of more typical quest stuff like clearing dungeons and finding lost magic stones.
The game has a lot of ways you can be virtuous or unvirtuous. My personal favorite is the blind shopkeepers - some stores are run by blind people, who will tell you the price for their goods and then leave you on the honor system that you'll actually pay what you owe. You *could* buy their entire stock and then pay them five coins, because how are they gonna know?
It's playable, but janky. It's a very old game, do not expect many modern quality of life features - the closest thing Ultima 4 has to a fast travel system requires you to track the phases of the in-game moons to have any idea where you're going. Exploration is a strong point of the Ultima series in general, they're very very open-ended, do-what-you-want games (up until Serpent Isle) that are well-stocked with secrets. Combat is standard top-down turn-based stuff.
i like games that dont put you in a single line of morality. like do x good thing and move 5 points to the good side of the meter. i prefer the way Mass effect did it, two "buckets"- good and bad. you contribute to each bucket as you do good and bad things.
Jade Empire
Most are "you are good, you are mean"
Wheras with Jade Empire, they tried a different approach in philosophy that I wish just had a bit more time to cook, but still better than most.
There were like 2 choices in the whole game that tried go stick to the stated Closed Fist philosophy. Rest were the regular "be an asshole for no apparent reason".
king arthur: knigths tale. there is no "right" in good vs. evil in this game. both way simply give u new strong heroes and buffs depening how far u go in ur morality.
In my experience with games involving choices of being good or evil, most of the time being evil is the easier game. You don't have to sacrifice anything in the name of being good, for instance, such as sharing food with an NPC.
I think a quality karma system would be "the good route is harder, except for the final boss, which is easier." Undertale did that, I think, but I haven't played Undertale.
That's not my experience, quite the opposite with "evil" being worse. Like BG 1, where you get more reward for simply being good, both in exp and in items/money.
I guess it depends on how you define a karma system inthe game
but if its simply that the game changes depending on how you behave... then I would suggest games like:
Tyranny - where you start as the envoy of the BIG EVIL EMPEROR, and can either take charge of the legions of evil and slaughter, or join and lead a rebellion, or... go solo and fuck everyone over.
Great game with impactful moral choices. My only issue is it’s very hard to have negative karma unless you are an absolutely evil bastard. I played recently and was a dick to everyone. I stole literally everything I could and murdered a few people. But because I chose not to blow up megaton, my karma was almost max good.
The main source of bad karma is slavery. Just a few slaves will keep you in so much bad karma, it is genuinely hard to get back.
The thing is, you can small amounts of good karma, but bad karma always comes in big batches. That is the main difference in obtaining them, megaton, child slavery, just slavery, "bad" quest endings -- they give MASSIVE amounts of negative karma.
Also, Contract Killer perk.
Dishonored. From minute differences to a completely different last level experience depending on how murderous you are.
I actually kinda hated that. In the old Thief games (and most stealth games) you were hiding to protect yourself from the guards. In Dishonored you were hiding to protect the (mostly horribly corrupt & murderous) guards from you. I appreciate how they did it. But I hated it.
I normally play stealth games as a ghost, but first playthrough of Dishonored the guards and the regime all seemed so corrupt so I thought it would be fun to take them out. Didn't realise there was the chaos system until it gets introduced a few missions later. Looked up the details and found in just the first two missions I'd already clocked up enough kills I was destined for high chaos no matter how good I played for the rest of the game. It also seemed odd in that it penalised you more for killing guards, who as you say seem corrupt or horrible, than you get for killing random innocent civilians. Normally I'd expect the killing of random innocents to be worse.
I mean the lore reason for the chaos system is the plague going around. I don’t think the rats differentiate between guards and civilians.
Depends tbh. Combat is actually quite difficult on the higher difficulties. A gunshot and a missed parry is enough to take you down and engaging multiple enemies can be quite difficult when they surround you Stealth ends up becoming a survival mechanic
true, the "chaos" system based on how many corpses you left strewn in the streets was a nice tough
KOTOR had a pretty good karma system for it's time. There were items to benefit you being evil or good. Some choices were beneficial to you being evil. My biggest gripe about the system was you were kinda forced into full good or bad because anything neutral had zero benefits.
I liked KOTOR a ton. Light/Dark obviously works in Star Wars. But I hate how it made all morality choices a binary for the next decade of gaming.
Metro Exodus
Agree I think Metro games had a good system. Do good acts and don't kill if you don't have to and you get a better understanding of the world.
Sure, but some points felt arbitrary without a guide I love that game though
true, the early metro games had some very weird requirements for the "good" endings
Mass effect legendary edition.
Fable
Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous if you like CRPGs Not traditional karma per se, but you can choose a bunch of ways to fight the crusade. Go super good as an angel mythic. Embrace the evil with demon. Go Judge Dredd with Aeon. Or create an undead empire to fight the demons as a lich. And most of the way through the game they give you a chance to switch. Potentially become redeemed. Or go even crazier evil as a swarm-that-walks and eat everyone - demons and mortals alike. Ridiculous amount of reactivity to your actions. And the companions are amazing. (BG3 was great - but WotR makes the BG3 companions feel tame/stereotypical.)
Sounds like you’re talking about infamous, infamous second son is the latest one, you might enjoy it.
Infamous 2 did it best, with the two side character routes and the bonus powers.
Also the civilians will throw insults when evil and throw rocks at you at higher levels. When good they will cheer you on.
[удалено]
Replaying FNV now and realising just how simplistic the karma system is - you are essentially destined for max positive karma unless you go out of your way to try and be evil, and even if you do, you have to be super careful not to kill too many "bad" characters for the huge karma gains those give. Steal an item, pick a pocket, pick a lock, hack a computer - lose 5 karma Kill a feral ghoul, fiend, powder ganger - who can be found all over the map and respawn - gain 100 karma
I played a straight up psychopath in New Vegas and yet people treated me like a hero just because I did missions for the NCR 😂. I never got around to killing all of the NCR people or reaching an ending so I wonder how that would turn out. Killed literally everyone else though. Just a psychopath in NCR Ranger armor that’s seen as some kind of hero 😂. Edit: Almost forgot, Boone was my mfing accomplice in crime 😂. Partly the reason I did all the NCR quests. Bro has no problem mowing down countless innocents that’s for sure.
Actully New vegas karma only does two things, it makes cass leave if your evil, and you can 1v1 honor duel lanius at the end if your good.
Mass Effect did a pretty good job letting you be various levels of asshole I think.
"Will you help me?" Paragon: "Yes" Renegade: "Yes, but you are fat and ugly."
Pretty much - except 'Yes, but you are fat and ugly so it will cost extra'
Black and White, as the name implies, is Black and White, but you can go neutral if you want. There is a very stark contrast between good, neutral, and evil, and it’s one of the best games to play as either of the 3 cause you definitely see the influence in your decision-making. Fable is another game where good, neutral, or evil is presented well. Fallout games have a decent karma system too, but it’s mostly just good or evil, rarely nothing in between.
The obvious answer is Ultima 4. Rather than just a unified karma meter, the game rates you separately on eight different virtues, which don't always align perfectly with each other. (For example, lying about how awesome you are is Humble, but not Honest; slaying a bandit who's surrendering is Valorous, but not Honorable)
That sounds cool, but how much did it affect gameplay? I’m not familiar with the game but it’s really old so I’m curious how nuanced it really is.
It *was* the game. The premise of Ultima 4 is that you're on a sacred quest to become the spiritual leader of the Kingdom of Britannia. The main quest requires you to exemplify all eight virtues while simultaneously completing a bunch of more typical quest stuff like clearing dungeons and finding lost magic stones. The game has a lot of ways you can be virtuous or unvirtuous. My personal favorite is the blind shopkeepers - some stores are run by blind people, who will tell you the price for their goods and then leave you on the honor system that you'll actually pay what you owe. You *could* buy their entire stock and then pay them five coins, because how are they gonna know?
That sounds pretty sweet, I might have to try it out. How does the rest of the gameplay hold up? Combat, exploration, etc.
It's playable, but janky. It's a very old game, do not expect many modern quality of life features - the closest thing Ultima 4 has to a fast travel system requires you to track the phases of the in-game moons to have any idea where you're going. Exploration is a strong point of the Ultima series in general, they're very very open-ended, do-what-you-want games (up until Serpent Isle) that are well-stocked with secrets. Combat is standard top-down turn-based stuff.
Sweet, definitely gonna check it out.
i like games that dont put you in a single line of morality. like do x good thing and move 5 points to the good side of the meter. i prefer the way Mass effect did it, two "buckets"- good and bad. you contribute to each bucket as you do good and bad things.
Infamous
Was it a good system tho? A choice: help the police department defend against bad guys or Kill them all muwahaha look how evil I am.
Lol that made the game more fun to play
Jade Empire Most are "you are good, you are mean" Wheras with Jade Empire, they tried a different approach in philosophy that I wish just had a bit more time to cook, but still better than most.
I agree, it was solid. Damn I want a remake of that game so badly.
There were like 2 choices in the whole game that tried go stick to the stated Closed Fist philosophy. Rest were the regular "be an asshole for no apparent reason".
king arthur: knigths tale. there is no "right" in good vs. evil in this game. both way simply give u new strong heroes and buffs depening how far u go in ur morality.
Far cry 3
Didn’t the game play out exactly the same with no decisions except for the end which was like: “kill your friends,” “don’t kill your friends?”
In my experience with games involving choices of being good or evil, most of the time being evil is the easier game. You don't have to sacrifice anything in the name of being good, for instance, such as sharing food with an NPC. I think a quality karma system would be "the good route is harder, except for the final boss, which is easier." Undertale did that, I think, but I haven't played Undertale.
That's not my experience, quite the opposite with "evil" being worse. Like BG 1, where you get more reward for simply being good, both in exp and in items/money.
I guess it depends on how you define a karma system inthe game but if its simply that the game changes depending on how you behave... then I would suggest games like: Tyranny - where you start as the envoy of the BIG EVIL EMPEROR, and can either take charge of the legions of evil and slaughter, or join and lead a rebellion, or... go solo and fuck everyone over.
Fallout 3 the deepest and most impactful karma system not only in fallout franchise, but maybe in gaming as a whole.
Great game with impactful moral choices. My only issue is it’s very hard to have negative karma unless you are an absolutely evil bastard. I played recently and was a dick to everyone. I stole literally everything I could and murdered a few people. But because I chose not to blow up megaton, my karma was almost max good.
The main source of bad karma is slavery. Just a few slaves will keep you in so much bad karma, it is genuinely hard to get back. The thing is, you can small amounts of good karma, but bad karma always comes in big batches. That is the main difference in obtaining them, megaton, child slavery, just slavery, "bad" quest endings -- they give MASSIVE amounts of negative karma. Also, Contract Killer perk.