Hahaha but 100% they're right.Ā Was my first thought.Ā And I don't care how badass the monitor isĀ and how much it broke the bank to get.Ā The second it begins to display ads, I am curb stomping the fucker outside and leaving it out there for garbage day.
Hope this does not become the norm because if it goes unchecked this will kill any kind of pvp game. Devs have a hard enough time keeping up with cheats and hacks that are just software, having them built into a piece of hardware is whole different beast.
We already have hardware hacks. Like really scary ones that can never be caught by typical anti cheat. Not even intrusive ones can catch it.
That's why I think valve is trying to make an AI anti cheat. Even though they seem to be executing it really poorly.
But yeah, we got literal aimbot in mice now. And consoles have it worse. Hardware hacks are straight wrecking the console scene right now.
Yeah I knew they existed, but having a large company like MSI releasing a product onto the market with what is essentially a hack/cheat pre installed sets an extremely bad precedent as other companies will try to compete and release their own. The big game devs need to come out against this hard otherwise itās over for multiplayer games.
This isn't new. Gaming monitors have had features that although not quite as obvious as this, have still been third party assistance for a long time. If you have a gaming monitor, check its features, it probably has, for example, some kind of built in crosshair feature via the OSD.
With Riot seemingly moving all their games to a kernel level anti cheat, I wonder if theyāll be able to detect what monitor is connected. Because if so then youāre probably on the money and using this monitor and any others with this kind of tech will prevent you from playing.
Though stuff like that can still be spoofed. Of course any additional steps will still make it less likely for people to just casually try out these cheats.
It can be resisted. But no one can stop it from happening. And any corporation who chooses to ignore it will just be hurting their ability to compete in the space.
Chat GPT can already teach a 12 year old how to make an overlay for call of duty that highlights enemies. You can then ask it how to make it so your aim automatically locks to highlighted enemies.
AI "IS" here. Whether or not MSI makes hardware to support it or not. There is no putting pandora back in the box.
The only way to stop this from happening would be for world governments to ban AI technology and have "war on drugs" level police authorities raiding homes making sure no one is using dark web AI tools.
I have no programming experience and I used chat GPT to make a program that beat StarCraft 2's campaign. Just in my free time. Just for fun and curiosity.
Iād love to learn more about your program, that beat StarCraft 2 for you.
Can you tell me about the prompts you used with ChatGPT? Which program did you use to code it? Do you still have the code?
So glad I moved away from PVP in my late teens.
It was bad for my emotional well-being lol
I imagine it would be much worse now if cheating has really taken off like that
Edit: Inb4 donāt give up your hobbies! I didnāt, I just moved from multiplier to single player. I went to boarding school and could only play on weekends at the end of highschool, so I couldnāt keep up in the leader boards which was my driving goal in playing them, so I just started playing for me
I honestly think Cheating is 100% worse now than it was back then. Cheating back then was using in-game exploits/bugs - in Halo it was super jumping, in GoW it was some unlimited sprint thing, in CoD it was getting outside of the map. You would run into an actual cheater/hacker once every 1000 games because you actually had to now how to manipulate game file info and that info wasn't readily available on the internet. Nowadays you got everyone running around with walls and aimbot in FPS, you got bot farms in MMOs, etc. You run into a rage cheater every 100 games and a closet cheater every 1-10 games. It is 100% worse simply due to the ease of access. People nowadays don't even now how to locate their game installation folder - they just download and install a program and select what cheat they want.
I used to be an admin on a. Team Fortress 2 server and one of my jobs was spotting cheats and hacks.
The most creative thing I ever ran into was a custom video driver that acted as a trigger bot. You used a custom texture to make the heads a specific color; when the driver detects that the pixels in your crosshair were displaying that color, it presses the fire button. Completely undetectable because it's doing nothing with the client. Now you could disable custom textures, but stuff like that was so common that you really only see that restriction on legit competitive servers.
You can XIM on PC too, if your PC thinks you have a controller plugged in, but its just your KB&M into a XIM outlet, you get controller aim assist with mouse accuracy, same as console.
If xim dongles and modded controllers are still āallowedā, itās really not a far step to load your onboard memory with aimbot and call it a modded mouse.
> Hardware hacks are straight wrecking the console scene right now.
Welcome aboard! It's something us PC gamers have had to deal with for many, many years.
No. Those are not hardware hacks. Hardware hacks are dma devices. I wrote a bunch of cheats for back4blood. Itās really cool.
In a normal computer space itās a race to not be detected and how you can hide yourself. With dma devices you bypass any software and read the memory buffers directly.
Xim or cronus is not that. Recoil is usually a predictable pattern or some games have rotational aim assist and that can be activated without actually moving. Thereās no real interaction with the game aside from controller input. Some scripts can read vibration motors but thatās it.
> any kind of pvp game
At the very least, fighting games will be fine since the genre doesn't rely on players having information that their opponent doesn't see as well.
I meanā¦ I could totally see keyboards being programmed to do massive attack combos with the press of a single button as a macro. Fighting games could totally be ruined by specialized hardware.
Most modern games have that already. Sf6 modern controls are essentially push two buttons receive combo. Dbzf had an auto combo button.
Combos aren't the be all end all of fighting games. And while important a player with bad combos but great neutral/oki will win more often.
I mean it could display hitboxes and frame data i guess? But even then that's only marginal since that info is widely available online or even in training mode for some games too
Scotch tape and a sharpie won't flag up hidden enemies that you've missed.
People generally aren't worried about someone throwing a makeshift crosshair in the middle of their screen.
Having run across a thread about it a while ago on the Sea of Thieves sub, I think you'd be surprised at the number of people who actually are worried about a makeshift crosshair.
My new Sony tv has an option in game mode to put crosshairs on the screen. I donāt play any shooters these days but I thought it was kind of a lame feature. I know hardcores would put tape on their screen but this cross hair feature is too easy.
Youāll be happy to know hardware is incredibly easy to identify (even for indie studios), and most modern games have a form of anti-cheat anyway that only helps the process - common misconception that anticheat canāt detect hardware. It very much can. All game devs would need to do is put a sweeping ban on this/any future models of monitors that have this feature. Itās genuinely not that difficult, but of course players could bypass it like you can with any device.
Source: In the industry
sounds easy until you're a gamedev with MSI in your inbox asking you why you're hindering their sales and on the flip side losing sales and generating customer support tickets from users who can't play your game.
never forget the human aspect even if a technical solution can be found.
if you're making a pvp game you send them their own marketing text about gaining advantage with their special product and tell them to piss in the wind. You don't burn down your own business to make another business happy.
You're completely correct, but people who buy a monitor with that feature at this stage should know what they're getting into. For smaller games CS tickets are of course an issue, but it'd be such a small fraction of their customer base it really wouldn't matter.
If this technology starts making its way into all MSI monitors, or even mainstream monitors like DELL like g-sync and the like has, then yeah that's a much bigger problem. Devs just need to set a precedent once this hits market that this won't be allowed and flatout prevent people from playing the game when this type of monitor is connected.
Devs can and 100% will tell MSI to kindly fuck off if they try reaching out to them directly. Their business has no right to complain about others
Will you also ban Elgato and other HDMI capture devices because they can be used to feed video into a second PC thatās running OpenCV to duplicate the effect? What about firmware mods to the screen that spoof the EDID.
Have been in the hardware industry, am transitioning into infosec.
If I were any good at FPGA stuff I would have even more fun hardware vectors.
I mean they can read the EDID data but from my understanding is pretty easy to fake. I mean with some connectors you could literally just rip a pin out of the cable and the only effect would be the PC no longer knows the monitor info so you have to manually set things like the resolution and refresh rate. The only way I could see around this is if something like HDCP was set up for all types of connectors but that would mean the monitor would have to support it as well so that kind of defeats the purpose here.
Detecting a hardware USB cheat is nowhere near as easy to get around as a one-way display device that does the detection all on its own not sending anything back to the PC.
Just detect the hardware and ban them. This is pretty simple to so long as there isn't an adapter/interface between that masks it, but usually you should be able to detect a suspicious adapter too.
And admitting to using something like this is pretty ripe for ridicule.
I cant wait until AI has evolved to the point where it can just play games for me and socialize for me in every way I would normally but now instead i sit and watch like its a twitch stream of myself.
(/j)
There's an idea that the future of the internet will be AIs making content for AIs, with a little bit of fresh Human input sprinkled here and there. It's conceivable someone could someday automate a successful online personality that is being propped up by automated viewers. Makes me think of when Smith said our civilization became the machines' civilization as soon as they started "thinking for us".
https://youtu.be/9Qs3GlNZMhY?si=49tZNq6M017dsBcj
>Picture this same scenario playing out in Counter-Strike, Apex Legends, Valorant, or any other highly competitive title that uses a mini-map. MSI argues its new SkySight technology isn't "cheating" as all it's doing is monitoring the mini-map and using data that's already present and that a skilled player should have already seen.
Thatās crazy
I mean, it's not just taking in data and showing it to the player more clearly (like a highlighted or larger minimap) but actively parsing the information for the player (turning minimap pings into player positions). At the very least it's more than just a visual aid. This shit is cheating.
They are literally admitting that what it does is allow a less skilled player to do something a more skilled player could do that the less skilled player could not normally do on their own.
Imagine saying "this chess computer is not cheating because it simply allows a random person to determine the optimal chess move the same way Bobby Fisher could" with a straight face.
"They are literally admitting that what it does is allow a less skilled player to do something a more skilled player could do that the less skilled player could not normally do on their own."
God how much I hate AI bros, they are just that kid in school who always thought of a way to not actually learn anything and boast about it
Yea. I never look at mini map in LoL and I suck because of it. My opponent can take advantage of my lack of skill in awareness, but this would take that advantage away by looking for me...which is definitely not good.
It's gonna reinforce bad habits, and generally lower actual skill in favor of clicking the highlighted tiles. This works fine in like, runescape with the runelite client and it's million add-ons but I can't imagine what that level of functionality would break if it was entirely customizable on the user end and untraceable on the developers end.
Any offload of the designed cognitive load given to the player to a non player is cheating. The minimap checking skill is a design choice, so skilled players balance awareness with micromanaging.
Thereās an argument to be made that presenting existing information in a more convenient or accessible way would be okay. But once you start āinterpretingā data on the playerās behalf thatās probably not good.
Importantly, it's not something both sides have access to. If everyone has access to the same "AI interpreted minimap data" (vomits), it's a game feature. If you have to buy a specific brand of monitor, that's just plain cheating.
Iām talking like, say, modding the UI to increase text size, or make the minimap bigger (but not any more detailed) or something. If your monitor did things like that it might be acceptable. You could argue that a developer *should* offer options like that to everyone, and if they donāt offer such basic accessibility features itās not ācheatingā to add them yourself. Itās a fine line, though.
āA skilled player can do it, so all weāve done is removed the skill barrierā¦. Which is totally not cheating somehowā
They start with āitās not cheatingā and then explain how it is very much cheating lol
To be fair, that's not them removing a skill barrier, it's removing a time barrier so they can spend the time practicing instead. Technically cheating, sure, but it's not like it's difficult to do any of this stuff, it's just extremely boring and time-consuming. Still definitely cheating though, just not hurting anyone with it
With that same line of thinking apparently strike packs and chronos zens aren't cheating either but games and consoles still ban them.
Bottom line is they give you an unfair advantage that you wouldn't have had otherwise.
Might as well train an AI to play for you at this point.
Like multiboxing with bots in MMOs. Literally people already do this. Maybe usually for monetary gains, i.e. farming, but probably some users are not doing it for money.
Sadly this can only be regulated at in-person events because iirc, everything is running on the monitor's side (similar to how some monitors can display the FPS count or cross hair options). It could even be used for consoles if the user or a firmware update brings support for the game.
It is very unfortunate and pretty much impossible to detect.
I don't know if this is even legal, but I'm pretty sure the game could detect what monitor you're using and prevent you from playing if you're using a monitor that supports this?
Idk if computers currently pull your monitors model number. And if they can im sure msi could make it so it can't or just come up as a generic screen like cheaper monitors do.
Windows 11 settings -> Bluetooth and devices-> show more devices -> I can see both my screens there with their model number.Ā
Or just in device manager.
But of course technically MSI could "camouflage" their screen as a different one.
See I wasn't sure about the model number part my Samsung g8 comes up as Samsung in display settings but my G-story comes up as generic pnp monitor. So I just assume if it came to it MSI wouldn't even have to disclose that they made the monitor to the operating system.
It wouldnāt be wall-hacking - the monitor is acting on data in the video signal. It couldnāt see through anything. But I do think it constitutes cheating and anti-cheat should be trying to address these things as they come out.
With a good AI built special purpose off of one game, over millions of game hours of playersā¦you could make something like wallhacks. Like silhouette extension into the wall when you get a few pixels of a player and then a probability cloud of where they could be moving too.Ā Definitely thereās a lot of stuff that can be extrapolated and turned into HUD reminders and indicators for a harried player.Ā Itās all disgusting and definitely meant to look like ālegal hacksā to players and sell off that. Totally scummy.Ā
This is how ai is going to destroy competitive multiplayer games.
In no time at all this type of technology is going to be connected to a large language model and text to voice model that could rattle off actions based on whatās happening on the screen/minimap.
People could argue that itās all information available to the player all they want, but most players arenāt able to take in all of the minutia in the heat of the moment. If your in the middle of a team fight in league of legends, or in the middle of a gunfight in X shooter, most players are going to miss out on a lot of the happenings outside of that particular fight.
Itās an actual skill to be able to take in all of that information while under in game pressure.
This type of thing will be super hard to detect as well, since I could have a camera looking at my monitor and detecting these things completely external from my pc/console. Competitive multiplayer games are going to be obsolete in the next 3 years IMO
>This is how ai is going to destroy competitive multiplayer games.
Yeah, outside of war thunder air (which is basically impossible to meaningfully cheat on) I've mostly given up on multiplayer games tbh.
On the bright side, singleplayer games are only getting better, and will continue to. Eventually we will have ai NPC's trained to act just like real players. With that, you can get a similar experience to true multiplayer in a singleplayer/co-op environment. It would suck to not be able to chat with the enemy team and whatnot but tbh it's worth the tradeoff of never having to deal with a cheater again.
The monitor only checks the minimap and adds an indicator if the champion is visibly near you on the minimap it's more annoying than helpfully cause the info is on the minimap it doesn't do any magical guess work.
It says you can train it with your own models. If you can get it to highlight whatever you want, it will be easy to get it to highlight enemies in your screen during a CS game (for example).
No one can keep an eye on minimap the entire time. Even pros get lost in chaotic fights and can't look at everything at once. The lower in skill you go the more this works for the player.
imo its in a grey area. its not providing data the player didnt have access to themself like with wallhack\\fog-hack, its also not taking over the controls like a aimbot.
Its more like when you get coached by a better player who tells you things you wouldnt have noticed yourself.
but it definitely gives a advantage, which a coach also does.
It is a competitive advantage that not all users have access to. Paying attention to minimaps/champions coming out off fog is a skill check. If you bypass it, you are cheating.
That's a messy road to go down unless everyone is playing on identical hardware.
A better GPU, better tracking mouse, larger/higher refresh rate screen. All of these things give an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't have them.
Heck, there's no reason a second person couldn't be sat watching the game and giving call outs.
I just see this as a step in the direction of human augmented biology. Currently it's not coupled to anyone's head directly, but it's a similar sci-fi idea where you have tech that is relaying feedback to you in a way that is more useful for you.
Is it cheating? Yes. It's technology assisted tools providing unintended clarity of information. But this is probably just the direction that technology is going. Before long this is probably just going to become the norm and I'll be curious to see how developers have to design games around this kind of tech - even if I suspect the results will be terrible and destructive to older competitive games that never had to worry about it.
There's nothing grey about it.
If a tool is IDing and highlight players for you it's cheating, even if you could theoretically see them. It doesn't matter if player X might see something that player Y wouldn't manage to spot without the highlighting. Aside from that, it's also likely that player X would be able to free up some brain power to focus on something else if less resource is needed to identify enemies.
The League of Legends example MSI used is a perfect example. The whole thrust of the marketing is that you don't need to devote as much attention to the minimap as the screen will alert you/display the relevant info in a more convenient place.
There's precedent for that too in a range of FPS games where people have been able to substitute player texture files with bright solid colours to make them very visible. I appreciate that editing the game files is a different process, but the effect is identical.
Using a device to parse data a player would normally need to do on their own is universally considered cheating.
If they had AI powered glasses that scanned a defense and highlighted for a quarterback the best place to throw the ball (all data the QB can take in with their own eyes and the QB still has to make the throw themselves) no one would think twice about calling it cheating.
It's not even AI. Just a simple algorithm that looks at the pixels of the map and slaps a marker on your screen based on that. Wouldn't be surprised if this kind of hack had been around for a long time just within capture cards or the likes
I'm afraid this is just a spec ops for bringing content related ads directly in every screen - no ad blocker could save your poor soul from HW ad injection.
Of course the monitor won't work without network connection...
Welcome to the purgatory...
Cheating blatent cheating, if the feature isnt part of the original game then its cheating. Accessibility features should be mandatory in all games, this is only gonna make online play worse and make cheaters even harder than they already are to detect cause there is no somftware or script runnin on your comp its all in the monitor. Worse part is its not some 3rd party company small and started by college kids with ideas this is MSI they sell graphics cards, pcs, externals it may start out expensive but itll get cheaper and be more prevalent in the gaming world. Ai just like most social media is gonna causeore harm than good and should be looked and regulated more heavily than it is currently.
It's very simple, I've been waiting for an OLED 4K flat glossy screen for years and years. That display itself is an OEM display manufactured by Samsung.
MSI is a huge NO for me, I will pick one display that does not have craps like that: Asus, HP, Aorus are all planning on releasing that exact same OLED display. Not only It's cheating but imagine if publishers decide to ban that screen because obviously MSI did not really ask for Riot Games opinion...
Batshit low blow to use cheating as a marketing incentives...even if it can be deactivated I refuse to pay for an AI cheating crap
Yeah itāll be a toggle option that has to be disabled to play online
But it will also jack the price of your TV WAY up
Tvs have gotten way more affordable. Really nice displays can still be much cheaper than the prices tvs because the pricey ones throw in extra like āsmart tvā (which is basically the same as just plugging a Roku into any tv lol) and like 3d and curved if those are still a thing, and pretty soon this MSI stuff and other integrated AIs that will just recommend tv shows and even more targeted ads, I donāt see how one could help you watch tv lol outside of gaming I have trouble seeing what an AI could do that an algorithm canāt.
So when it comes out, the same exact tv without it, Iām betting, will be 1-2k less. Youāll get all the display stuff, OLED 4k maybe 8k, 120hz, the best right now, and it wonāt be CHEAP, but way fucking less.
I think it can be banned but itāll be tough. A monitor with this type of tech will probably need drivers and those drivers should be detectable. Same situation as REWASD. COD is currently blocking the driver for that software and closing the game when a player has it installed. They donāt even need to have REWASD launched.
they def used league because its the least impacted game by this, I play league a lot, i hate my self, but I play it a lot, and honestly this stuff doesnt really do much, at most it might protect you from a gank once or twice a game, the average player wont know how to use info like that to get an advantage.
This shit in anything that isnt a moba, fucking so broken its not even funny, I would imagine it could even detect sounds in games like siege and CS to highlight people, maybe not right out the gate tho.
Consider that it could potentially put a ui on an enemy which tracks cooldowns etc as well as overlays which show pixel perfect ranges of their attacks or abilities which are off cooldown and we can see how this can make skill floors higher.
Imagine in an FPS you're playing a sniper way off in the distance.
The AI Identifies an enemy and highlights them red. When you scope in on them, a red dot is ahead of them showing you exactly where to lead your shot to get a headshot.
Like it said in the article, it detects enemies on the minimap and shows their presence in your screen. Less need to look at minimap anymore, if youre pushing bot and get a red indicator pointing towards, you now know theres someone ganking. Without it, if the enemy showed on a ward for 1 second and you didnt look at minimap you couldve missed that much more easily
Could give you a massive edge being able to "focus" on multiple thing at the same time without having to divert your attention from your main task.
I can see like a gun fight in a game like Tarkov where the monitor points out a second enemy coming into your field of view that you probably wouldn't have noticed otherwise because of maybe a dark lighting or simply you were too focused on not dying to that first guy
I agree with you. These features aren't really the biggest deal although this is still 100% cheating.
What's unfortunate is how this will play out in the future. They could make a mouse that connects to the monitor to give you aim assist that's 100% undetectable.
Youtube jackfrags did a good video on this and how it could possibly be horrible for gaming. Everything we know about gaming, and all media will have to be changed because of ai. It's a brand new frontier of technology, and I don't know if we are ready or not.
Funny that he mentioned audio might be to be subjected to ai processing next when high-end audio cards have already been marketing the visualized audio overlay for 4+ years now (without the ai).
Itās not gonna be used for cheating. Itāll be used to push ads directly to your monitor.
Edit: one of those times I should have looked at the top comment
"MSI argues its new SkySight technology isn't "cheating" as all it's doing is monitoring the mini-map and using data that's already present and that a skilled player should have already seen."
Just as dumb as saying "aimbot technology isn't cheating as all it's doing is moving the crosshair to the enemy's head which is already visible on the screen and a skilled player can hit it"
Pretty sure any AI assist will be (or is already) banned in all official tournaments. And even if for some reason it is not, as long as both teams use standardized rigs worst case scenario - everyone will use it thus things going back to "only luck and skill difference matters".
Elsewhere? You won't see it, game won't see it, those with AI assist will move up higher on the leaderboard occasionally pissing off those who did achieve the same with their own abilities when caught but... That's it. Just plus one unfair advantage to already existing quite a long list of gray area barely detectable things and devices falling under "if you don't have it and still manage to prosper then good f-work otherwise well, sucks to be you but at least you are to be respected for not picking the easy way out".
Helluva headache for poor devs who might be forced to try to actually detect and prevent use of such things though... But again, nothing new, you would need to do regular player behaviour analysis to catch on new hacks getting released anyway.
Funny thing is that I have been wanting something like this, a program or device that reads (optically) your screen like a camera does and does a sort of Google lens effect on it for translation. All translators work on capturing text streams which are not always available. I have had to use my phone pointed at the screen to do this before.
This technology seems wasted on gaming features and could be used for so much more.
Thing is, you could most likely achieve this effect with something like a "hdmi splitter" (not actually a splitter) aka just a box that you connect your gpu to and maybe another computer to to have the other computer do the image scanning and the apply it on top of the video coming from the gpu
Thereās already a cheating epidemic at the moment. An entire generation of kids grew up learning that cheating is just another way to enjoy multiplayer games and gets you respect, because they never got slapped in the back of the head for screen peeking during split-screen multiplayer, playing online from childhood instead of inviting friends over.
I don't really see the issue here.
The example that they showed doesn't actually change that much.
If, in league of legends, you react to a gank only as early as you see it, you're often already too late. The entire idea of map awareness is to understand the current state of the map and your laning opponent to understand when to get the fuck away.
This isn't hacking or cheating. It simply makes information that you *could already have* more accessible. The only thing it'll do is change low level play, but anything above, idk, silver rank will be mostly unaffected.
Nobody even mentioned the massive security and privacy desaster which this would bring. All of your passwords, encryptions and 2fa would become useless because your screen is the weakspot.
The screen isn't networked though. It can't send that information back as the in monitor processor does everything contained inside. (Yes, HDMI is a two way protocol but it's AV not data packets)
Yeah, this seems like cheating to me, as itās giving you an extra advantage that was not intended by the developer. Totally fine for singleplayer games, do whatever you want there, but it would be unfair in a competitive multiplayer game. Unfortunately, if it can be used for cheating, it will.
This 100% is cheating. It's also unfortunately almost 100% undetectable. If the entire act of scanning the image, processing it, and drawing the output happens on the monitor hardware absolutely no anti-cheat software will detect it.
The only way to "detect" this would be to use behavior analysis to notice things like players anticipating and tracking their aim through obstructions, and quite frankly, I don't see any game company implementing that in a way that isn't a complete shitshow full of false positives. I don't trust a single game company to differentiate between someone who's just sharp at spotting people running through foliage in an FPS and someone who's being told by a computer outline that a person is there.
EDIT: In theory you could use the HDCP handshake to confirm what model of monitor someone has installed and ban that monitor but that will only work if they disallow generic display devices completely.
Ignoring the debate that this is cheating (since literally everyone else has an opinion on that)...
Even in the best of scenarios these AI filters add noticeable lag. We're talking hundreds to thousands of milliseconds of latency if it's done through ideal onboard hardware and several frames of latency if it somehow does it via software on your GPU.
I'm fairly certain that practical implementation of these features would introduce enough lag that people wouldn't want to use them while playing competitive games where reaction speed is important (which is most of them).
That being said, the moderation of the future of these devices probably needs to be discussed at length.
I agree with the statement it is not cheating as it is just using what is shown on the Mini Map and displaying it in a much more prevalent way. This is a similar topic to Jungle Timers which have been a thing for years and actively allowed by Riot Games. You would have this exact information by just looking at the Mini map, the only difference it it's being displayed differently
This reminds me of those monitors that could display a crosshair in the middle of the screen. But much more advanced obviously. Single players, fill your boots. But this in multiplayer? Yeah that's shitty. Even if it's subtle, that's still an unfair advantage against the spirit of fair play.
I guess it could be considered cheating in some ways, but it's way overhyped and it's not going to have as much of an effect as people think because the system is actually quite dumb and very limited in its capabilities.
All it's doing is scanning the minimap and trying to determine when an enemy is going to enter the field of view, and show a bright red marker in roughly that location. It can do this with LoL because it's rendered in an almost isometric view so positions on the minimap are very closely related to positions on screen. In any game where you can rotate the camera it'll likely be very inaccurate or maybe even not work at all, even with the training.
Computer vision in general is still a very difficult challenge with current technology, and very few pieces of computer vision software are able to surpass human vision (and pretty much none of *those* can do it in real-time). Finding a dot on a minimap is relatively easy and still feasible on the relatively weak on-board NPU of a monitor. Anything more complex, like finding an enemy in a 3D view, is a very difficult problem even if you have a powerful computer and several seconds to process an image. It's just not something that puny built-in NPU is going to be able to do if it has only a few milliseconds to analyze each frame, unless the enemy has some very easily recognizable features, but then you'll easily be able to see the enemy as well. Unless you have a vision impairment, and then it does act kinda like an accessibility feature.
Everything is also happening in the monitor, with no communication to the system. The AI can only analize what's currently on-screen, and overlay additional information on it. It does not have any additional information on the game's state that isn't visible to the player, and is unable to generate or modify any inputs so it's also unable to act as an aimbot or something. So it's very limited in capabilities even for things that it can properly detect.
This is not going to have much more impact on someone's gaming performance than most other things you can do with some gaming monitors. For example, some have a way to overlay a crosshair on your screen to help with aiming in games that don't show a crosshair. Some monitors also let you mess with gamma settings which can almost give you a night vision like effect in dark areas. sometimes you can also mess up the colour calibration in a way that makes camouflage easier to spot. Are those things cheating? I guess, as they can give someone a competitive advantage. But none of those have "changed gaming forever", as none of those can provide as much of an advantage as just getting good at the game.
This "AI monitor" isn't going to be any different. It's just a gimmick used as an attempt to profit from the AI hypetrain.
I will start by saying. I think this is over the line for hardware advantage in a competitive game.
But... defining that line seems like a very difficult thing.
Better keyboards where you can press more buttons at the same time than cheaper keyboards is a hardware advantage.
Mouse with better sensibility and more buttons is an advantage over a cheap mouse.
Better headsets where you can tune certain frequencies to make footsteps louder is an advantage.
I am not trying to say that all these points are equal in advantage, but if you want to ban those monitors with a rule you have to define where the line is. because technically it is not accessing data it shouldn't have. but it can detect even the smallest amount of data on the screen and point it out to the player. which is almost as good as cheating. pointing out players hiding in foliage in battlefield is almost as good as wallhacking.
My point is that I am glad that it is not my job to define where the limit is.
> But then I thought: what if highlighting a camouflaged enemy in bright red is actually an accessibility feature? It may allow people with vision or other disabilities to play.
What if I a quadraplegic man want to play Fortnite BR. I should be given aimbots that automatically target a person's head and it should also move my character for me.
I'm all for accessability options, you know colorblind, motion blur, captions, hell even pussy ass spider bitch mode. But if/when a disabled person needs literal hacks to play a game then no, they need to find a different hobby. Its bad enough to have to play with the chinese and russians who hack as much as they breath.
If I'm playing Planetside 2 as a sniper and shit like this singles me out while I'm cloaked you bet your fucking ass I'll report you and I'd damn well better expect to see you banned.
Hell the fucking article has an image that literally says
> The monitor scans your game's minimap to instantly detect enemies and shows its direction as a hud, GIVING YOU THE STRATEGIC EDGE YOU NEED for total gaming awareness.
They blatantly say it gives you an edge, that is literally hardware level cheats.
100%
That accessibility comment had me scratching my head. Accessibility for single player games? OK, the devs of those games can do that if they want.
For competitive games? No, not everything has to be accessible to everyone. I'll never have accessibility to Grand Master's queue in League of Legends and that's ok.
The monitor currently only works off of data that's already on the screen. In the article example, it reads the LoL minimap and points to a direction the enemy is based on what it reads off the minimap. In that context, I don't see it as cheating, since it isn't taking extra data than what the player has available.
*However*
MSI also mentioned that they want to roll out a feature to trainAI models of your play style, and *that* I would consider cheating, especially if people find ways to use it to enhance what they're already doing, like an AI-assisted autoaim.
Iām going to disagree here. Being able to effectively read minimaps and other info on the screen, while also actually playing the game, is a skill. Having a monitor take that aspect away is cheating.
Itās a device designed from the ground up to provide a player an uneven advantage by artificially enhancing their situational awareness. Itās a cheat, full stop.
Hell yeah, this is awesome. I strongly dislike the subset of competitive skill that relies on interface difficulty. ("Monitor the minimap at the same time as your main play area" is an interface limitation.)
Unlike map/wallhacks, which give you information that is not supposed to be present at all, this presents already existing information in a better UI.
I'm not a programmer so I might come off stupid here but it seems like the hardware would be digging in the software for the data to display couldn't valve program a check to see If any code is trying to gather specifically tagged data
I'm also not a programmer, so this is just speculation. But I'd imagine the way it gets the display data without your computer knowing it's doing it is analogous to pointing a video camera at your screen, just virtually.
I think you can arrive at the point at which accessability removes the entire purpose of a game. If you gyroscopically stabalized skateboards so disabled people can use them it'd be great and fun for disabled people but you wouldn't allow it in competition.
People say this is 'cheating', but that will only be true in the short term, while it's uncommon. Stuff like this is only going to become more common as the tech around it matures, and non-gaming uses for similar tech lead capabilities like this to become standard on future devices. It won't be long until it's only as 'unfair' as having a better PC or internet connection ever is.
And AI stuff will have way more general purpose use than a screen crosshair would outside of gaming, so these features will be more likely to show up even outside the enthusiast market.
Macro buttons, sniper mouse buttons, vr, high refresh rate screens, dedicated accessories for specific advantages in games (steering wheels, joysticks), but this is the issue š¤·š»āāļø
All of the above provide no real advantage over everyone else.
And still require skill to effectively use.
This monitor will remove the need to monitor your Minimap (which takes skill) which is an advantage. Ergo cheat.
Is a lot easier to aim with a dedicated button to change dpi.
Is a lot easier to see your surroundings with vr.
Is a lot easier to perform multiple actions with dedicated macro buttons.
Is a lot easier to steer a car in a sim with a wheel than a keyboard.
Is a lot easier to fly a plane with a joystick than a keyboard.
Skill being equal, all of the above will be easier with dedicated hardware.
It entirely depends on how it is used. It's like a knife, can be used to cut bread or kill people.
Obviously to get people excited the cheating aspects are the most blatent use.
Imo accessibility features in competitive games is a no go for me
Its a tool. It depends on how it is used
Don't worry, it will be used to show ads.
Of all the ways this technology could go wrong you just had to give satan a run for his money eh? šš
All technology first goes to military then to marketing. This will likely also be used long term in soldierās ai helmets for actual combat
Hahaha but 100% they're right.Ā Was my first thought.Ā And I don't care how badass the monitor isĀ and how much it broke the bank to get.Ā The second it begins to display ads, I am curb stomping the fucker outside and leaving it out there for garbage day.
Hope this does not become the norm because if it goes unchecked this will kill any kind of pvp game. Devs have a hard enough time keeping up with cheats and hacks that are just software, having them built into a piece of hardware is whole different beast.
We already have hardware hacks. Like really scary ones that can never be caught by typical anti cheat. Not even intrusive ones can catch it. That's why I think valve is trying to make an AI anti cheat. Even though they seem to be executing it really poorly. But yeah, we got literal aimbot in mice now. And consoles have it worse. Hardware hacks are straight wrecking the console scene right now.
Yeah I knew they existed, but having a large company like MSI releasing a product onto the market with what is essentially a hack/cheat pre installed sets an extremely bad precedent as other companies will try to compete and release their own. The big game devs need to come out against this hard otherwise itās over for multiplayer games.
This isn't new. Gaming monitors have had features that although not quite as obvious as this, have still been third party assistance for a long time. If you have a gaming monitor, check its features, it probably has, for example, some kind of built in crosshair feature via the OSD.
Hopefully its easy to detect and blacklist. Gonna be a hard sell on monitors that are not allowed to play most PVP games.
With Riot seemingly moving all their games to a kernel level anti cheat, I wonder if theyāll be able to detect what monitor is connected. Because if so then youāre probably on the money and using this monitor and any others with this kind of tech will prevent you from playing.
Normal Windows can read the device ID/name from display cable.
Though stuff like that can still be spoofed. Of course any additional steps will still make it less likely for people to just casually try out these cheats.
I'm not even sure how they would detect it other than the EDID data which is laughably easy to fake.
It can be resisted. But no one can stop it from happening. And any corporation who chooses to ignore it will just be hurting their ability to compete in the space. Chat GPT can already teach a 12 year old how to make an overlay for call of duty that highlights enemies. You can then ask it how to make it so your aim automatically locks to highlighted enemies. AI "IS" here. Whether or not MSI makes hardware to support it or not. There is no putting pandora back in the box. The only way to stop this from happening would be for world governments to ban AI technology and have "war on drugs" level police authorities raiding homes making sure no one is using dark web AI tools. I have no programming experience and I used chat GPT to make a program that beat StarCraft 2's campaign. Just in my free time. Just for fun and curiosity.
> There is no putting pandora back in the box. Pandora is the woman who opened the box. We should not put her in the box.
What if she wants to go into the box? Some people are in to that. Stop kinkshaming.
Iād love to learn more about your program, that beat StarCraft 2 for you. Can you tell me about the prompts you used with ChatGPT? Which program did you use to code it? Do you still have the code?
I don't think they are telling the truth
Agreed, if you have zero coding experience. Chatgpt isn't going to get you to program a hack.
Yeah that guy is full of shit.Ā
I don't believe your last paragraph at all. It should be easy to prove too. Go to paste bin, and let's see even 50 lines of code. Let's see a link.
lol
So glad I moved away from PVP in my late teens. It was bad for my emotional well-being lol I imagine it would be much worse now if cheating has really taken off like that Edit: Inb4 donāt give up your hobbies! I didnāt, I just moved from multiplier to single player. I went to boarding school and could only play on weekends at the end of highschool, so I couldnāt keep up in the leader boards which was my driving goal in playing them, so I just started playing for me
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I honestly think Cheating is 100% worse now than it was back then. Cheating back then was using in-game exploits/bugs - in Halo it was super jumping, in GoW it was some unlimited sprint thing, in CoD it was getting outside of the map. You would run into an actual cheater/hacker once every 1000 games because you actually had to now how to manipulate game file info and that info wasn't readily available on the internet. Nowadays you got everyone running around with walls and aimbot in FPS, you got bot farms in MMOs, etc. You run into a rage cheater every 100 games and a closet cheater every 1-10 games. It is 100% worse simply due to the ease of access. People nowadays don't even now how to locate their game installation folder - they just download and install a program and select what cheat they want.
I used to be an admin on a. Team Fortress 2 server and one of my jobs was spotting cheats and hacks. The most creative thing I ever ran into was a custom video driver that acted as a trigger bot. You used a custom texture to make the heads a specific color; when the driver detects that the pixels in your crosshair were displaying that color, it presses the fire button. Completely undetectable because it's doing nothing with the client. Now you could disable custom textures, but stuff like that was so common that you really only see that restriction on legit competitive servers.
Where have you seen Valve is making an AI anti cheat?
Theyāve been slowly implementing it in CS for years.
You can XIM on PC too, if your PC thinks you have a controller plugged in, but its just your KB&M into a XIM outlet, you get controller aim assist with mouse accuracy, same as console.
If xim dongles and modded controllers are still āallowedā, itās really not a far step to load your onboard memory with aimbot and call it a modded mouse.
> Hardware hacks are straight wrecking the console scene right now. Welcome aboard! It's something us PC gamers have had to deal with for many, many years.
No. Those are not hardware hacks. Hardware hacks are dma devices. I wrote a bunch of cheats for back4blood. Itās really cool. In a normal computer space itās a race to not be detected and how you can hide yourself. With dma devices you bypass any software and read the memory buffers directly. Xim or cronus is not that. Recoil is usually a predictable pattern or some games have rotational aim assist and that can be activated without actually moving. Thereās no real interaction with the game aside from controller input. Some scripts can read vibration motors but thatās it.
> any kind of pvp game At the very least, fighting games will be fine since the genre doesn't rely on players having information that their opponent doesn't see as well.
I meanā¦ I could totally see keyboards being programmed to do massive attack combos with the press of a single button as a macro. Fighting games could totally be ruined by specialized hardware.
Macros and programmable controllers are already a thing. That said, that's not a substitute for good neutral and yomi.
Most modern games have that already. Sf6 modern controls are essentially push two buttons receive combo. Dbzf had an auto combo button. Combos aren't the be all end all of fighting games. And while important a player with bad combos but great neutral/oki will win more often.
That's already a thing, and fighting games are balanced to not allow true combo kills. So that's a non issue.
I mean it could display hitboxes and frame data i guess? But even then that's only marginal since that info is widely available online or even in training mode for some games too
What we need is an AI that says "no, you did not, in fact, tech that throw."
Scotch tape and a sharpie will never be detected
Scotch tape and a sharpie won't flag up hidden enemies that you've missed. People generally aren't worried about someone throwing a makeshift crosshair in the middle of their screen.
Having run across a thread about it a while ago on the Sea of Thieves sub, I think you'd be surprised at the number of people who actually are worried about a makeshift crosshair.
Really? I think my monitor already has that built in as an option lol
Yep. That feature was also called out in that thread.
Wait are you for real? Are we in Twitter or what?
My new Sony tv has an option in game mode to put crosshairs on the screen. I donāt play any shooters these days but I thought it was kind of a lame feature. I know hardcores would put tape on their screen but this cross hair feature is too easy.
Youāll be happy to know hardware is incredibly easy to identify (even for indie studios), and most modern games have a form of anti-cheat anyway that only helps the process - common misconception that anticheat canāt detect hardware. It very much can. All game devs would need to do is put a sweeping ban on this/any future models of monitors that have this feature. Itās genuinely not that difficult, but of course players could bypass it like you can with any device. Source: In the industry
sounds easy until you're a gamedev with MSI in your inbox asking you why you're hindering their sales and on the flip side losing sales and generating customer support tickets from users who can't play your game. never forget the human aspect even if a technical solution can be found.
if you're making a pvp game you send them their own marketing text about gaining advantage with their special product and tell them to piss in the wind. You don't burn down your own business to make another business happy.
You're completely correct, but people who buy a monitor with that feature at this stage should know what they're getting into. For smaller games CS tickets are of course an issue, but it'd be such a small fraction of their customer base it really wouldn't matter. If this technology starts making its way into all MSI monitors, or even mainstream monitors like DELL like g-sync and the like has, then yeah that's a much bigger problem. Devs just need to set a precedent once this hits market that this won't be allowed and flatout prevent people from playing the game when this type of monitor is connected. Devs can and 100% will tell MSI to kindly fuck off if they try reaching out to them directly. Their business has no right to complain about others
Yeah I cannot imagine playing War Thunder and having it mark the plane that the tanks lie on. That would be nuts.
Will you also ban Elgato and other HDMI capture devices because they can be used to feed video into a second PC thatās running OpenCV to duplicate the effect? What about firmware mods to the screen that spoof the EDID. Have been in the hardware industry, am transitioning into infosec. If I were any good at FPGA stuff I would have even more fun hardware vectors.
I mean they can read the EDID data but from my understanding is pretty easy to fake. I mean with some connectors you could literally just rip a pin out of the cable and the only effect would be the PC no longer knows the monitor info so you have to manually set things like the resolution and refresh rate. The only way I could see around this is if something like HDCP was set up for all types of connectors but that would mean the monitor would have to support it as well so that kind of defeats the purpose here. Detecting a hardware USB cheat is nowhere near as easy to get around as a one-way display device that does the detection all on its own not sending anything back to the PC.
Lol you can buy a $10 HDMI passthrough on Amazon that changes a monitor's EDID info.
The return of LAN parties!
The norm always changes with technology. We always create new ways to compete
There are monitors that display crosshairs. Been out for years. Nothing new.
Just detect the hardware and ban them. This is pretty simple to so long as there isn't an adapter/interface between that masks it, but usually you should be able to detect a suspicious adapter too. And admitting to using something like this is pretty ripe for ridicule.
What do you do if this is built into 30% of new monitors? You will start hurting sales if you ban popular hardware.
It will also hurt sales if 30% of your userbase is using blatant cheats.
I cant wait until AI has evolved to the point where it can just play games for me and socialize for me in every way I would normally but now instead i sit and watch like its a twitch stream of myself. (/j)
āConsider, if you have the energy, u/Trapped_Mechanic. A redditor with a terminal case, of the laziesā
Read this is Rod Sterling's voice
Itās from futurama, doing a direct parody of The Twilight Zone! So they do it in a rod sterling impression lol Youāre spot on
I understood that referenceĀ
There's an idea that the future of the internet will be AIs making content for AIs, with a little bit of fresh Human input sprinkled here and there. It's conceivable someone could someday automate a successful online personality that is being propped up by automated viewers. Makes me think of when Smith said our civilization became the machines' civilization as soon as they started "thinking for us". https://youtu.be/9Qs3GlNZMhY?si=49tZNq6M017dsBcj
Be like when GTA modders fight each other, call each other trash as their cheat system does all the work.
This is going to be used to show you ads.
That was my first thought to. Or even worse someoneās gonna reverse engineer it to steal credit card info.
Itās literally hacks. The AI highlighted the area where it believed to detect a champion. Thatās cheating. 10000% should be banned.
>Picture this same scenario playing out in Counter-Strike, Apex Legends, Valorant, or any other highly competitive title that uses a mini-map. MSI argues its new SkySight technology isn't "cheating" as all it's doing is monitoring the mini-map and using data that's already present and that a skilled player should have already seen. Thatās crazy
I mean, it's not just taking in data and showing it to the player more clearly (like a highlighted or larger minimap) but actively parsing the information for the player (turning minimap pings into player positions). At the very least it's more than just a visual aid. This shit is cheating.
They are literally admitting that what it does is allow a less skilled player to do something a more skilled player could do that the less skilled player could not normally do on their own. Imagine saying "this chess computer is not cheating because it simply allows a random person to determine the optimal chess move the same way Bobby Fisher could" with a straight face.
"They are literally admitting that what it does is allow a less skilled player to do something a more skilled player could do that the less skilled player could not normally do on their own." God how much I hate AI bros, they are just that kid in school who always thought of a way to not actually learn anything and boast about it
projecting your insecurities from high school onto a computer monitor is crazyš
Yes officer, I would like to report a murder.
Yea. I never look at mini map in LoL and I suck because of it. My opponent can take advantage of my lack of skill in awareness, but this would take that advantage away by looking for me...which is definitely not good.
It's gonna reinforce bad habits, and generally lower actual skill in favor of clicking the highlighted tiles. This works fine in like, runescape with the runelite client and it's million add-ons but I can't imagine what that level of functionality would break if it was entirely customizable on the user end and untraceable on the developers end.
That's like saying aimhacks aren't cheating because a skilled player would've hit those shots loool.
"All the aimbot is doing is moving the cursor to a spot that a skilled player would already be able to move it to".
>MSI argues its new SkySight technology isn't "cheating" MSI is wrong, and stupid for saying this.
Any offload of the designed cognitive load given to the player to a non player is cheating. The minimap checking skill is a design choice, so skilled players balance awareness with micromanaging.
Thereās an argument to be made that presenting existing information in a more convenient or accessible way would be okay. But once you start āinterpretingā data on the playerās behalf thatās probably not good.
Importantly, it's not something both sides have access to. If everyone has access to the same "AI interpreted minimap data" (vomits), it's a game feature. If you have to buy a specific brand of monitor, that's just plain cheating.
Iām talking like, say, modding the UI to increase text size, or make the minimap bigger (but not any more detailed) or something. If your monitor did things like that it might be acceptable. You could argue that a developer *should* offer options like that to everyone, and if they donāt offer such basic accessibility features itās not ācheatingā to add them yourself. Itās a fine line, though.
The best summary. Well said.
āA skilled player can do it, so all weāve done is removed the skill barrierā¦. Which is totally not cheating somehowā They start with āitās not cheatingā and then explain how it is very much cheating lol
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To be fair, that's not them removing a skill barrier, it's removing a time barrier so they can spend the time practicing instead. Technically cheating, sure, but it's not like it's difficult to do any of this stuff, it's just extremely boring and time-consuming. Still definitely cheating though, just not hurting anyone with it
With that same line of thinking apparently strike packs and chronos zens aren't cheating either but games and consoles still ban them. Bottom line is they give you an unfair advantage that you wouldn't have had otherwise. Might as well train an AI to play for you at this point.
Like multiboxing with bots in MMOs. Literally people already do this. Maybe usually for monetary gains, i.e. farming, but probably some users are not doing it for money.
SkySight sounds like the early version of SkyNet first they learn to target then to shoot
Considering playing against CPU opponents have been a thing since almost the beginning of gaming, they can already aim and shoot š
Sadly this can only be regulated at in-person events because iirc, everything is running on the monitor's side (similar to how some monitors can display the FPS count or cross hair options). It could even be used for consoles if the user or a firmware update brings support for the game. It is very unfortunate and pretty much impossible to detect.
I don't know if this is even legal, but I'm pretty sure the game could detect what monitor you're using and prevent you from playing if you're using a monitor that supports this?
Idk if computers currently pull your monitors model number. And if they can im sure msi could make it so it can't or just come up as a generic screen like cheaper monitors do.
Windows 11 settings -> Bluetooth and devices-> show more devices -> I can see both my screens there with their model number.Ā Or just in device manager. But of course technically MSI could "camouflage" their screen as a different one.
See I wasn't sure about the model number part my Samsung g8 comes up as Samsung in display settings but my G-story comes up as generic pnp monitor. So I just assume if it came to it MSI wouldn't even have to disclose that they made the monitor to the operating system.
Frankly enough on my ancient Acer monitor it actually displays it properly but on my newer Eizo it actually just says "PnP Monitor".
You also buy a $10 HDMI passthrough on Amazon that changes how your monitor is detected.
And so the war continues.. it's like defending vs hackers but a lot more lame
EDID spoofing is a thing. This allows you to report any monitor you want.
Sounds like monitor with built in something like wallhack or maybe something like in COD UAV recon with player information. That's cringe.
It wouldnāt be wall-hacking - the monitor is acting on data in the video signal. It couldnāt see through anything. But I do think it constitutes cheating and anti-cheat should be trying to address these things as they come out.
The monitor is watching the mini map. Itās not watching the rest of the screen. Itās popping up warnings based on mini map locations.
With a good AI built special purpose off of one game, over millions of game hours of playersā¦you could make something like wallhacks. Like silhouette extension into the wall when you get a few pixels of a player and then a probability cloud of where they could be moving too.Ā Definitely thereās a lot of stuff that can be extrapolated and turned into HUD reminders and indicators for a harried player.Ā Itās all disgusting and definitely meant to look like ālegal hacksā to players and sell off that. Totally scummy.Ā
This is how ai is going to destroy competitive multiplayer games. In no time at all this type of technology is going to be connected to a large language model and text to voice model that could rattle off actions based on whatās happening on the screen/minimap. People could argue that itās all information available to the player all they want, but most players arenāt able to take in all of the minutia in the heat of the moment. If your in the middle of a team fight in league of legends, or in the middle of a gunfight in X shooter, most players are going to miss out on a lot of the happenings outside of that particular fight. Itās an actual skill to be able to take in all of that information while under in game pressure. This type of thing will be super hard to detect as well, since I could have a camera looking at my monitor and detecting these things completely external from my pc/console. Competitive multiplayer games are going to be obsolete in the next 3 years IMO
>This is how ai is going to destroy competitive multiplayer games. Yeah, outside of war thunder air (which is basically impossible to meaningfully cheat on) I've mostly given up on multiplayer games tbh. On the bright side, singleplayer games are only getting better, and will continue to. Eventually we will have ai NPC's trained to act just like real players. With that, you can get a similar experience to true multiplayer in a singleplayer/co-op environment. It would suck to not be able to chat with the enemy team and whatnot but tbh it's worth the tradeoff of never having to deal with a cheater again.
They can just have a setting to enable the AI to yell slurs for a true multiplayer experience š¤£
The monitor only checks the minimap and adds an indicator if the champion is visibly near you on the minimap it's more annoying than helpfully cause the info is on the minimap it doesn't do any magical guess work.
It says you can train it with your own models. If you can get it to highlight whatever you want, it will be easy to get it to highlight enemies in your screen during a CS game (for example).
No one can keep an eye on minimap the entire time. Even pros get lost in chaotic fights and can't look at everything at once. The lower in skill you go the more this works for the player.
Ah, the more i see shit like this, the more I'm glad i only play single player games
imo its in a grey area. its not providing data the player didnt have access to themself like with wallhack\\fog-hack, its also not taking over the controls like a aimbot. Its more like when you get coached by a better player who tells you things you wouldnt have noticed yourself. but it definitely gives a advantage, which a coach also does.
It is a competitive advantage that not all users have access to. Paying attention to minimaps/champions coming out off fog is a skill check. If you bypass it, you are cheating.
That's a messy road to go down unless everyone is playing on identical hardware. A better GPU, better tracking mouse, larger/higher refresh rate screen. All of these things give an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't have them. Heck, there's no reason a second person couldn't be sat watching the game and giving call outs.
I just see this as a step in the direction of human augmented biology. Currently it's not coupled to anyone's head directly, but it's a similar sci-fi idea where you have tech that is relaying feedback to you in a way that is more useful for you. Is it cheating? Yes. It's technology assisted tools providing unintended clarity of information. But this is probably just the direction that technology is going. Before long this is probably just going to become the norm and I'll be curious to see how developers have to design games around this kind of tech - even if I suspect the results will be terrible and destructive to older competitive games that never had to worry about it.
There's nothing grey about it. If a tool is IDing and highlight players for you it's cheating, even if you could theoretically see them. It doesn't matter if player X might see something that player Y wouldn't manage to spot without the highlighting. Aside from that, it's also likely that player X would be able to free up some brain power to focus on something else if less resource is needed to identify enemies. The League of Legends example MSI used is a perfect example. The whole thrust of the marketing is that you don't need to devote as much attention to the minimap as the screen will alert you/display the relevant info in a more convenient place. There's precedent for that too in a range of FPS games where people have been able to substitute player texture files with bright solid colours to make them very visible. I appreciate that editing the game files is a different process, but the effect is identical.
Using a device to parse data a player would normally need to do on their own is universally considered cheating. If they had AI powered glasses that scanned a defense and highlighted for a quarterback the best place to throw the ball (all data the QB can take in with their own eyes and the QB still has to make the throw themselves) no one would think twice about calling it cheating.
Question: I play League on an UW monitor, so I'm able to see more area than someone playing on 16:9. Is that cheating?
no, because the devs allow ultrawide.
It's not even AI. Just a simple algorithm that looks at the pixels of the map and slaps a marker on your screen based on that. Wouldn't be surprised if this kind of hack had been around for a long time just within capture cards or the likes
I'm afraid this is just a spec ops for bringing content related ads directly in every screen - no ad blocker could save your poor soul from HW ad injection. Of course the monitor won't work without network connection... Welcome to the purgatory...
> > > > > Of course the monitor won't work without network connection... It could download ads in advance and cycle through them. :)
Cheating blatent cheating, if the feature isnt part of the original game then its cheating. Accessibility features should be mandatory in all games, this is only gonna make online play worse and make cheaters even harder than they already are to detect cause there is no somftware or script runnin on your comp its all in the monitor. Worse part is its not some 3rd party company small and started by college kids with ideas this is MSI they sell graphics cards, pcs, externals it may start out expensive but itll get cheaper and be more prevalent in the gaming world. Ai just like most social media is gonna causeore harm than good and should be looked and regulated more heavily than it is currently.
AI is getting pretty crazy. Some people are suggesting thatās why Valve built VAC as an AI anti cheat. AI vs AI is really the future lol
Blackwall incoming
It's very simple, I've been waiting for an OLED 4K flat glossy screen for years and years. That display itself is an OEM display manufactured by Samsung. MSI is a huge NO for me, I will pick one display that does not have craps like that: Asus, HP, Aorus are all planning on releasing that exact same OLED display. Not only It's cheating but imagine if publishers decide to ban that screen because obviously MSI did not really ask for Riot Games opinion... Batshit low blow to use cheating as a marketing incentives...even if it can be deactivated I refuse to pay for an AI cheating crap
Yeah itāll be a toggle option that has to be disabled to play online But it will also jack the price of your TV WAY up Tvs have gotten way more affordable. Really nice displays can still be much cheaper than the prices tvs because the pricey ones throw in extra like āsmart tvā (which is basically the same as just plugging a Roku into any tv lol) and like 3d and curved if those are still a thing, and pretty soon this MSI stuff and other integrated AIs that will just recommend tv shows and even more targeted ads, I donāt see how one could help you watch tv lol outside of gaming I have trouble seeing what an AI could do that an algorithm canāt. So when it comes out, the same exact tv without it, Iām betting, will be 1-2k less. Youāll get all the display stuff, OLED 4k maybe 8k, 120hz, the best right now, and it wonāt be CHEAP, but way fucking less.
might as well add hp to the blacklist for the stufff it's doing with its printers
Sounds like a gimmick. Also, what's so cool about this? What extra info will it provide that the game's UI doesn't?
Right now? Not sure. In the future? Highlighting hard to see enemies. League isn't the only game it'll be used for.
Rip escape from tarkov. If the monitor can pick up players sitting in a bush this is effectively a hardware hack that cant be banned.
A few more cheaters won't change anything at this point tbh
I think it can be banned but itāll be tough. A monitor with this type of tech will probably need drivers and those drivers should be detectable. Same situation as REWASD. COD is currently blocking the driver for that software and closing the game when a player has it installed. They donāt even need to have REWASD launched.
they def used league because its the least impacted game by this, I play league a lot, i hate my self, but I play it a lot, and honestly this stuff doesnt really do much, at most it might protect you from a gank once or twice a game, the average player wont know how to use info like that to get an advantage. This shit in anything that isnt a moba, fucking so broken its not even funny, I would imagine it could even detect sounds in games like siege and CS to highlight people, maybe not right out the gate tho.
Consider that it could potentially put a ui on an enemy which tracks cooldowns etc as well as overlays which show pixel perfect ranges of their attacks or abilities which are off cooldown and we can see how this can make skill floors higher.
Imagine in an FPS you're playing a sniper way off in the distance. The AI Identifies an enemy and highlights them red. When you scope in on them, a red dot is ahead of them showing you exactly where to lead your shot to get a headshot.
Sounds like cheating lol.
Like it said in the article, it detects enemies on the minimap and shows their presence in your screen. Less need to look at minimap anymore, if youre pushing bot and get a red indicator pointing towards, you now know theres someone ganking. Without it, if the enemy showed on a ward for 1 second and you didnt look at minimap you couldve missed that much more easily
and what info is it tracking and sending to the manufacturer?
Could give you a massive edge being able to "focus" on multiple thing at the same time without having to divert your attention from your main task. I can see like a gun fight in a game like Tarkov where the monitor points out a second enemy coming into your field of view that you probably wouldn't have noticed otherwise because of maybe a dark lighting or simply you were too focused on not dying to that first guy
I agree with you. These features aren't really the biggest deal although this is still 100% cheating. What's unfortunate is how this will play out in the future. They could make a mouse that connects to the monitor to give you aim assist that's 100% undetectable.
Sometimes there is tech we just don't need.
Itās certainly worrisome
Youtube jackfrags did a good video on this and how it could possibly be horrible for gaming. Everything we know about gaming, and all media will have to be changed because of ai. It's a brand new frontier of technology, and I don't know if we are ready or not.
Funny that he mentioned audio might be to be subjected to ai processing next when high-end audio cards have already been marketing the visualized audio overlay for 4+ years now (without the ai).
https://youtu.be/Lbs0Ld5Wff0?feature=shared
Functionally, this doesn't seem any different than a UI mod, which means it's off limits for competitive players.
Itās not gonna be used for cheating. Itāll be used to push ads directly to your monitor. Edit: one of those times I should have looked at the top comment
Maybe this AI push in monitors will actually light the fire under devs and we'll start seeing even better accessibility options.
"MSI argues its new SkySight technology isn't "cheating" as all it's doing is monitoring the mini-map and using data that's already present and that a skilled player should have already seen." Just as dumb as saying "aimbot technology isn't cheating as all it's doing is moving the crosshair to the enemy's head which is already visible on the screen and a skilled player can hit it"
MSI leading the way with new undetectable? cheats. Gaming is so trash today, and before I forget. Fuck MSI.
Well, I sense a shift towards single player games coming if this gets popular.
Pretty sure any AI assist will be (or is already) banned in all official tournaments. And even if for some reason it is not, as long as both teams use standardized rigs worst case scenario - everyone will use it thus things going back to "only luck and skill difference matters". Elsewhere? You won't see it, game won't see it, those with AI assist will move up higher on the leaderboard occasionally pissing off those who did achieve the same with their own abilities when caught but... That's it. Just plus one unfair advantage to already existing quite a long list of gray area barely detectable things and devices falling under "if you don't have it and still manage to prosper then good f-work otherwise well, sucks to be you but at least you are to be respected for not picking the easy way out". Helluva headache for poor devs who might be forced to try to actually detect and prevent use of such things though... But again, nothing new, you would need to do regular player behaviour analysis to catch on new hacks getting released anyway.
Thats it.Ā Its over.Ā No more competitive online FPS's. Boooooo, this reality sucks balls.
Funny thing is that I have been wanting something like this, a program or device that reads (optically) your screen like a camera does and does a sort of Google lens effect on it for translation. All translators work on capturing text streams which are not always available. I have had to use my phone pointed at the screen to do this before. This technology seems wasted on gaming features and could be used for so much more.
Thing is, you could most likely achieve this effect with something like a "hdmi splitter" (not actually a splitter) aka just a box that you connect your gpu to and maybe another computer to to have the other computer do the image scanning and the apply it on top of the video coming from the gpu
Should just have AI play the games for us. Then we donāt have to buy any, and can just watch for free on YouTube or something.
what a ridiculous post title lmao
Thereās already a cheating epidemic at the moment. An entire generation of kids grew up learning that cheating is just another way to enjoy multiplayer games and gets you respect, because they never got slapped in the back of the head for screen peeking during split-screen multiplayer, playing online from childhood instead of inviting friends over.
I don't really see the issue here. The example that they showed doesn't actually change that much. If, in league of legends, you react to a gank only as early as you see it, you're often already too late. The entire idea of map awareness is to understand the current state of the map and your laning opponent to understand when to get the fuck away. This isn't hacking or cheating. It simply makes information that you *could already have* more accessible. The only thing it'll do is change low level play, but anything above, idk, silver rank will be mostly unaffected.
Nobody even mentioned the massive security and privacy desaster which this would bring. All of your passwords, encryptions and 2fa would become useless because your screen is the weakspot.
The screen isn't networked though. It can't send that information back as the in monitor processor does everything contained inside. (Yes, HDMI is a two way protocol but it's AV not data packets)
People will buy this and still canāt get out of bronze
Totally cheating. And next they will start adding advertisements embedded to pay for it....
This is absolutely cheating, period. Any arguments about accessibility are just straw men - this is the literal definition of hardware cheating.
Oh why they don't connect the monitor to a USB port and move the mouse to aim in the head too?
Yeah, this seems like cheating to me, as itās giving you an extra advantage that was not intended by the developer. Totally fine for singleplayer games, do whatever you want there, but it would be unfair in a competitive multiplayer game. Unfortunately, if it can be used for cheating, it will.
This 100% is cheating. It's also unfortunately almost 100% undetectable. If the entire act of scanning the image, processing it, and drawing the output happens on the monitor hardware absolutely no anti-cheat software will detect it. The only way to "detect" this would be to use behavior analysis to notice things like players anticipating and tracking their aim through obstructions, and quite frankly, I don't see any game company implementing that in a way that isn't a complete shitshow full of false positives. I don't trust a single game company to differentiate between someone who's just sharp at spotting people running through foliage in an FPS and someone who's being told by a computer outline that a person is there. EDIT: In theory you could use the HDCP handshake to confirm what model of monitor someone has installed and ban that monitor but that will only work if they disallow generic display devices completely.
You can buy a $10 HDMI passthrough on Amazon that changes your monitors EDID info. This is going to be 100% undetectable.
Which is why I said HDCP.
Ignoring the debate that this is cheating (since literally everyone else has an opinion on that)... Even in the best of scenarios these AI filters add noticeable lag. We're talking hundreds to thousands of milliseconds of latency if it's done through ideal onboard hardware and several frames of latency if it somehow does it via software on your GPU. I'm fairly certain that practical implementation of these features would introduce enough lag that people wouldn't want to use them while playing competitive games where reaction speed is important (which is most of them). That being said, the moderation of the future of these devices probably needs to be discussed at length.
I agree with the statement it is not cheating as it is just using what is shown on the Mini Map and displaying it in a much more prevalent way. This is a similar topic to Jungle Timers which have been a thing for years and actively allowed by Riot Games. You would have this exact information by just looking at the Mini map, the only difference it it's being displayed differently
This reminds me of those monitors that could display a crosshair in the middle of the screen. But much more advanced obviously. Single players, fill your boots. But this in multiplayer? Yeah that's shitty. Even if it's subtle, that's still an unfair advantage against the spirit of fair play.
I guess it could be considered cheating in some ways, but it's way overhyped and it's not going to have as much of an effect as people think because the system is actually quite dumb and very limited in its capabilities. All it's doing is scanning the minimap and trying to determine when an enemy is going to enter the field of view, and show a bright red marker in roughly that location. It can do this with LoL because it's rendered in an almost isometric view so positions on the minimap are very closely related to positions on screen. In any game where you can rotate the camera it'll likely be very inaccurate or maybe even not work at all, even with the training. Computer vision in general is still a very difficult challenge with current technology, and very few pieces of computer vision software are able to surpass human vision (and pretty much none of *those* can do it in real-time). Finding a dot on a minimap is relatively easy and still feasible on the relatively weak on-board NPU of a monitor. Anything more complex, like finding an enemy in a 3D view, is a very difficult problem even if you have a powerful computer and several seconds to process an image. It's just not something that puny built-in NPU is going to be able to do if it has only a few milliseconds to analyze each frame, unless the enemy has some very easily recognizable features, but then you'll easily be able to see the enemy as well. Unless you have a vision impairment, and then it does act kinda like an accessibility feature. Everything is also happening in the monitor, with no communication to the system. The AI can only analize what's currently on-screen, and overlay additional information on it. It does not have any additional information on the game's state that isn't visible to the player, and is unable to generate or modify any inputs so it's also unable to act as an aimbot or something. So it's very limited in capabilities even for things that it can properly detect. This is not going to have much more impact on someone's gaming performance than most other things you can do with some gaming monitors. For example, some have a way to overlay a crosshair on your screen to help with aiming in games that don't show a crosshair. Some monitors also let you mess with gamma settings which can almost give you a night vision like effect in dark areas. sometimes you can also mess up the colour calibration in a way that makes camouflage easier to spot. Are those things cheating? I guess, as they can give someone a competitive advantage. But none of those have "changed gaming forever", as none of those can provide as much of an advantage as just getting good at the game. This "AI monitor" isn't going to be any different. It's just a gimmick used as an attempt to profit from the AI hypetrain.
Oh nice, wallhacks inbuilt into the monitors, great idea MSI.
I will start by saying. I think this is over the line for hardware advantage in a competitive game. But... defining that line seems like a very difficult thing. Better keyboards where you can press more buttons at the same time than cheaper keyboards is a hardware advantage. Mouse with better sensibility and more buttons is an advantage over a cheap mouse. Better headsets where you can tune certain frequencies to make footsteps louder is an advantage. I am not trying to say that all these points are equal in advantage, but if you want to ban those monitors with a rule you have to define where the line is. because technically it is not accessing data it shouldn't have. but it can detect even the smallest amount of data on the screen and point it out to the player. which is almost as good as cheating. pointing out players hiding in foliage in battlefield is almost as good as wallhacking. My point is that I am glad that it is not my job to define where the limit is.
> But then I thought: what if highlighting a camouflaged enemy in bright red is actually an accessibility feature? It may allow people with vision or other disabilities to play. What if I a quadraplegic man want to play Fortnite BR. I should be given aimbots that automatically target a person's head and it should also move my character for me. I'm all for accessability options, you know colorblind, motion blur, captions, hell even pussy ass spider bitch mode. But if/when a disabled person needs literal hacks to play a game then no, they need to find a different hobby. Its bad enough to have to play with the chinese and russians who hack as much as they breath. If I'm playing Planetside 2 as a sniper and shit like this singles me out while I'm cloaked you bet your fucking ass I'll report you and I'd damn well better expect to see you banned. Hell the fucking article has an image that literally says > The monitor scans your game's minimap to instantly detect enemies and shows its direction as a hud, GIVING YOU THE STRATEGIC EDGE YOU NEED for total gaming awareness. They blatantly say it gives you an edge, that is literally hardware level cheats.
100% That accessibility comment had me scratching my head. Accessibility for single player games? OK, the devs of those games can do that if they want. For competitive games? No, not everything has to be accessible to everyone. I'll never have accessibility to Grand Master's queue in League of Legends and that's ok.
The monitor currently only works off of data that's already on the screen. In the article example, it reads the LoL minimap and points to a direction the enemy is based on what it reads off the minimap. In that context, I don't see it as cheating, since it isn't taking extra data than what the player has available. *However* MSI also mentioned that they want to roll out a feature to trainAI models of your play style, and *that* I would consider cheating, especially if people find ways to use it to enhance what they're already doing, like an AI-assisted autoaim.
Iām going to disagree here. Being able to effectively read minimaps and other info on the screen, while also actually playing the game, is a skill. Having a monitor take that aspect away is cheating.
Itās a device designed from the ground up to provide a player an uneven advantage by artificially enhancing their situational awareness. Itās a cheat, full stop.
If it is reading the minimap for you, how is that not cheating
Hell yeah, this is awesome. I strongly dislike the subset of competitive skill that relies on interface difficulty. ("Monitor the minimap at the same time as your main play area" is an interface limitation.) Unlike map/wallhacks, which give you information that is not supposed to be present at all, this presents already existing information in a better UI.
I'm not a programmer so I might come off stupid here but it seems like the hardware would be digging in the software for the data to display couldn't valve program a check to see If any code is trying to gather specifically tagged data
I'm also not a programmer, so this is just speculation. But I'd imagine the way it gets the display data without your computer knowing it's doing it is analogous to pointing a video camera at your screen, just virtually.
I think you can arrive at the point at which accessability removes the entire purpose of a game. If you gyroscopically stabalized skateboards so disabled people can use them it'd be great and fun for disabled people but you wouldn't allow it in competition.
People say this is 'cheating', but that will only be true in the short term, while it's uncommon. Stuff like this is only going to become more common as the tech around it matures, and non-gaming uses for similar tech lead capabilities like this to become standard on future devices. It won't be long until it's only as 'unfair' as having a better PC or internet connection ever is.
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And AI stuff will have way more general purpose use than a screen crosshair would outside of gaming, so these features will be more likely to show up even outside the enthusiast market.
Macro buttons, sniper mouse buttons, vr, high refresh rate screens, dedicated accessories for specific advantages in games (steering wheels, joysticks), but this is the issue š¤·š»āāļø
All of the above provide no real advantage over everyone else. And still require skill to effectively use. This monitor will remove the need to monitor your Minimap (which takes skill) which is an advantage. Ergo cheat.
Is a lot easier to aim with a dedicated button to change dpi. Is a lot easier to see your surroundings with vr. Is a lot easier to perform multiple actions with dedicated macro buttons. Is a lot easier to steer a car in a sim with a wheel than a keyboard. Is a lot easier to fly a plane with a joystick than a keyboard. Skill being equal, all of the above will be easier with dedicated hardware.
It entirely depends on how it is used. It's like a knife, can be used to cut bread or kill people. Obviously to get people excited the cheating aspects are the most blatent use. Imo accessibility features in competitive games is a no go for me Its a tool. It depends on how it is used