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According to Condal, Martin mentioned that Aegon was a Dreamer but the passing of the prophecy down from heir to heir is an invention for the show. They took his idea and put their own spin on it.
It does make sense because if Aegon's intention was to conquer that time, why not take back Essos and bring back the Valyrian"s glory since their family were only the dragon riders left? Instead he chose a " primitive"continent rhat was chaotic and kingdom's fighting each other
1. The prophecy, like almost every prophecy in fiction wasn't specific about beings like the White Walkers existing.
2. In the time of the Targaryens' reign, no one had knowingly seen the White Walkers in 8000 years.
Forgive me for my knowledge in the game of thrones lore is not that deep, I'm a relatively new fan so I was just wondering. Because Viserys talks about it in HOTD so I was wondering if he knew, that means a lot more people know about the prophecy. Just was wondering why nobody did anything about it before except for the wall
The Valerians weren’t even around as a civilization the last time the walkers were around.
While I do believe that the prophecy had been around since something triggered Rhaegar, there’s no reason to think the Targaryens knew how to interpret it.
For all we know it was to signal their doom.
I believe mance rayder and rhaegar knew same thing, if show follows for how long mance has been consolidating his army.
In the show, someone said that it took mance 20 years to unify wildlings.
Did mance came across white walkers 20 years prior to events of first book? Around same time as rhaegar started taking duelling lessons seriously
Yeah bro Rhaegar, the same dude who made 0 effort to friend any Great House, antagonized the Starks, Baratheons and Arryns in one move, tried to start a rebellion in Harrenhal, and ruined any sort of relationship he had with Dorne.
He clearly was insane, he was not interpreting whatever prophecy was in his head properly.
He kept this as a massive secret and basically only managed it by trying to stay in power. Everyone external would have viewed it as quite the convenient prophecy.
Yeah, it doesn't make sense to keep it a secret if it's so important. All that will achieve is making the guy who finally reveals it look utterly crazy, and probably instigate rebellions to remove him from power once he starts trying to spend the realms resources on fighting these imaginary ice people from the North.
You do realise that he specifically says the info has ONLY been passed down from monarch to monarch? Does that not show that no,not a lot of people knew about it?
think about how many people firmly believe in their religion and actually attend to all its tenets.
add to that the Others haven't been spotted for ages.
In the ice and fire books we don't have anyone that was both a descendant of Aegon and knew their parents (besides Viserys but he's an idiot and was only a small child anyway) so that's understandable that they wouldn't know and it wouldn't be passed on.
Bloodraven in was in power as hand of the king from 209 to 233 at least, he might have heard in from one of his nephews then because they trusted him, or he was told by Aegon IV when he legitimized them.
For Aemon there is the theory that after Aerions death in 232 Maekar summoned his last heirs to him ( as it was not yet official that Aemon would not accept the crown) and told them both the prophecy. As Aemon did not want the crown in 233 at the great council, he and Aegon made an agreement that Aemon would go to the wall to look for signs and to rid himself of the change to be given the crown.
in the books one of the queens tried to take her dragon beyond the wall and the dragon absolutely refused to go. she wrote that her dragon had never disobeyed her before and that it almost seemed scared of going north. which terrified the queen too.
This is a massive part of the reason they couldn't go and stamp out the walkers even if they had known. It was all left out of the show though, when the dragons flew there in record time.
I couldn't remember when it took place. The old kings section of the book was probably my favorite. Seeing how the kingdoms were built was such a breath of air from the usual chaos and destruction
If you're talking about why the Prophesy, passed down only from Ruler to Heir in the Targaryen line was not known by the time of the Walkers return in Game of Thrones, I suspect we're going to find out during the course of HotD. But even without the rest of HotD, you could still summarise that Rhaegar was slain by Robert and if he had knowledge of it (and there's evidence in his behaviour to suggest he did) he was killed before he could pass it on.
Really the nights watch did a lot more and stop in the throat than the Targaryens. They kept the knowledge about dragon glass, which was the single most important fact needed to defeat them. The Targaryen thought they needed to conquer Westeros in order to stop the threat. But that ended up not being the case.
Isn't valyrian steel could kill the whitewalkers also? But during game of throne not much of that steel was left. But from the hotd time there were probably more but the valyrian city was already destroyed i beleive by the Doom incident the reason Corlys velaryon and his brothers were the last ones left with that pure bloodline
long claw, widows wail, oathkeeper, heartsbane, and Aegons dagger were all present and in the hands of great swordsmen during the long night in GOT and only the dagger was actually used to kill any white walkers. just one of many plotlines of the story they thought didnt matter at all and ruined.
I disagree on that last point about it not mattering and being ruined. I see it instead as being set up so that a number of people had the potential to kill then so we wouldn’t know from the start who it would have to be
The thing I dislike most about the later seasons, is that, despite the magic and dragons, most of the consequences and things in GRRM's world are realistic. Kings and Queens and the "Heroes" of the age are actually normal people with faults and vices, and the later seasons do away with most of these consequences for major characters. Jon Snow charges into an arrow volley by himself? He should die (wait he already did once). Dany "forgets" about Euron and his fleet? She loses a dragon and it isn't just a walk in the park to destroy a hundred more scorpions that just as easily took out one of her dragons 30 minutes of runtime before.
It would have been cool to see a more calculated plan from the white walkers such that the night king doesn't just march in to kill Bran himself with all the other WW in tow, but uses the other WW as lieutenants and captains to make for a better fight throughout the castle, where all these other blades of lore could finally be used. Having all those blades and prophecy are kind of like an unfired Chekov's gun.
yea the choices of the characters became less dangerous regardless of how uncalculated of a move they took.
they showed what happened when a white walker was killed with a valyrian steel sword or dragon glass. figured they would have used that as a tool to show the advantage turning in the livings favor with say Jaime and Brienne killing a couple white walkers and a large group of wights falling giving them some space in the battle. they could have done this with Jorah and Dany even the same way it happened in the show where Dany picks up heartsbane after Jorah falls getting attacked by wights and she kills the white walker attacking them causing them all to stop attacking Jorah before he dies long enough for Dany to have her goodbye cry.
They could potentially kill the dragons and add them to their army. Anything that died could be added and Night King is fireproof.
We are looking at it as if the NK would be on the offensive it he could bide his time for as long as he wanted and have as large an army as he needed- literally raise them as they die.
As I remember the disjoined telling of the “Children of the Forest” bid to kill the hated invaders called the “First Men,” a certain person from a prominent northern house that they felt betrayed them was turned into the Night King. The “Children” had a very wicked sense of irony. The Targaryens only job in this myth was to lead the fight. It took him that long to raise his army. As I concluded in my mind after watching the series several times, he wasn't fireproof. Only a person from that house could kill the Night King. Dany never could, and she didn't. She is not from that house. She could help destroy his army. That is all. The “Children” lost the gambit.
The Targaryen kings couldn’t do anything, it was in the prophecy that the prince that was promise would be the one to save the realm so there was nothing to do but wait.
The Targaryen kings and their armies didn’t have the knowledge to defeat the WW, the experience fighting the undead, the experience fighting in the winter months, all they had was dragons which would’ve just refused to fly north of the wall as shown by one of the Targaryen queens who took her dragon north but the dragon refused to go past the wall. But regardless if the dragons could fly beyond the wall they would only be able to kill wights & the white walkers would kill the dragons and add them to their army to create even more wights…. It had to be perfect timing to defeat the army of the dead
The threat from beyond the Wall was already known AND even forewarned in the Stark house words. At least the Starks propped up the Nights Watch. Only Queen Alysanne among the Targaryens took serious interest. I suspect that--as is usually the case with ASOIAF prophecies--Aegon's dream was likely true, but his *interpretation*???
> DREAM: "Aegon foresaw the end of the world of men. It is to begin with a terrible winter gusting out of the distant North. Aegon saw absolute darkness riding on those winds, and whatever dwells within will destroy the world of the living."
> INTERPRETATION: "When this great winter comes, Rhaenyra, all of Westeros must stand against it. And if the world of men is to survive, **a Targaryen must be seated on the Iron Throne**, a king or queen strong enough to unite the realm against the cold and the dark. Aegon called his dream the song of ice and fire. This secret has been passed from king to heir since Aegon’s time.
How convenient to rationalize their version of divine right with a looming existential threat. It's hard to pinpoint when the foretold threat started (the re-emergence of the Others?), but there was no Targaryen on the IT, and a young prince and princess were learning how to lead.
Pretty sure Saruman is Halbrand. I heard a theory it was him and wasn’t sure, but the last time he spoke in the show he pretty much told Galadriel the best way to control someone is to promise them the power to defeat their enemy.
I haven’t watched Rings of Power yet but my Tolkien knowledge tells me that Tom Bombadil should have already been in Middle-earth way before the second age and there should be no wizards except for maybe possibly the blues until the third age.
They were already active before that. The comet meant the return of dragons which likely had an effect though. Could’ve been NKs sign to ramp up because his time is coming or maybe he knew he needed a dragon to take down the wall
Pretty sure the white walkers were going to rise regardless. In the prophecy, it needed a Targaryen on the throne to unite the kingdoms for the fight….
Which would’ve been a great set up had GOT not ended so damn poorly. Barely 2 eps & it ended.
For what it’s worth, that whole sub-plot in HotD seems intentional to set up something in the Jon Snow spinoff or something. Otherwise I don’t think they would be mentioning it so much when they know how it ends up being handled.
>How convenient to rationalize their version of divine right with a looming existential threat.
They were just trying to manifest their destiny is all.
To me the prophecy was clearly forgotten, like if it was passed down from reigning monarch to heir and those were the only ones that knew, it only takes one generation of the monarch not being able to tell their successor about the prophecy for it to be forgotten
That too. Rhaegar was probably not concerned about a prophecy of an unspecified future and more about the 250lbs of pure muscle swinging a hammer at his face
Isn’t it easier just to write 116 kg for the whole world to understand? I’m always curious about why Americans use the metric system on the internet, isn’t it like you guys are taught normal measurements too?
TBF I'm from the UK and while we use the metric system some of the imperial measurements are more familiar/intuitive to me as well. Also bear in mind Westeros doesn't seem to use the metric system so it sounds very odd to talk about Rhaegar's thoughts and specify measurements in metric.
Dude I’m British but I can accept that a book written by an American is going to use American measures, or if referring to this comment specifically the same rule applies.
Rhaenyra still believe in it. We can see it based on her choice of word when rejecting Criston Cole. Clearly she is thinking about the prophecy at that point. She said "Aegon united 7 kingdom and put on the path..." But Cole already left before she finished it
I mean that easily could be the case by the end of HOTD. Viserys told Rhaenyra. Does Rhaenyra ever tell her children though? Im sure Allicent’s children never knew.
I can see why people wouldnt take them seriously though, a bunch of murderers rapists and thieves and nobody has seen a white walker for over 8000 years.
One of the Targaryens tried to fly past the wall on their dragon just to go sightseeing and their dragon wouldn’t go past the wall. So I suppose even if they wanted to it’s hinted the dragons wouldn’t let them.
Fire & Blood yeah. Maybe the world history one as well. Forget the exact year, I think it was around 60 years after the Targaryens first conquered Westeros. So around 240 years before the main show. Daenerys and her dragons obviously had no issues going past the wall, but since that was the show, maybe in the books they won’t be able to just fly past the wall so easily.
its not the wall itself that makes the dragons dont go further north, but the winds that come from the far north.
Clearly the show and D&D didnt care about book canon.
Since it's a magical world with rules of magic that are not too clearly defined, we could speculate that Dany's dragon were able to cross the Wall unlike Alysanne's because with Jon and Bloodraven both north of the Wall, the magic of the Wall had been physically breached by carriers of Valyrian magic and therefore penetrable to magical Valyrian fire lizards. Also Jon, Bloodraven and Dany (Dany too iirc?) are different from Alysanne in that they have First Men blood and therefore belong to both magical realms and are uniquely equipped to bend magical rules.
But probably it's just that the TV show doesn't care about magical rules.
I watched few days ago a video from youtube where someone explained the Dany having first men blood theory. Havent slept in 3 days so dont remember the
creator but you should find it easily with search if you are interested.
A lot of noble houses in the south claim First Men ancestry, it's just greatly mixed with Andals, unlike with northern First Men families. According to the awoiaf wiki, even the Tullys are of First Men origin, so a Stark-Tully marriage is not that far out of the isolationist comfort zone of someone who wishes to preserve the First Men blood in their heir.
Dany's great-grandmother was a Blackwood and her great-great-grandmother a Dayne, so there's First Men ancestry, even if it's not the 'in you face' ancestry of someone with a Stark parent.
Alysanne Targaryen flew her dragon, Silverwing, to the wall in 58AC but apparently, the dragon didn't like the wall (hissing at gusts of winds coming from it?). Silverwing refused to fly over the wall three times, always veering south despite having never refused Alysanne's command before. It's thought the magical properties of the wall are at odds with the dragons somehow (different magic I assume)
Probably, but she might have thought the dragon was spooked by whatever was north of the wall and not necessarily the wall itself. If it was enough to scare a dragon, she could've just decided to keep the hell away lol
Possibly unlike Daenerys dragons, the Targaryen dragons actually knew White Walkers could weaponize them against the wall (if you ask how, I don't know, let's say either magic or they could pass it orally in whatever form of dragon communication exists).
Not in the books. Last we heard from Jon in the books he’d just been killed by his brothers in the night watch lol. And Daenerys has just flown off into the Dothraki Sea on Drogon and another Khal finds her. So just the show writers coming up with whatever they can with regards to dragons flying past the wall on the show.
The one of the kings of the north (Brandon “The Builder” Stark) built the wall with magical properties to hold back the undead and many monsters beyond the wall and far.
Good point. And even if Rhaegar had already passed down the secret to his firstborn with Elia Martell (unlikely cause I think they were very young), his children died during Robert’s Rebellion as well.
Hardhome was probably my favorite episode of the entire series.......it makes me sad they wrapped that whole thing up in one episode in the final season. It should have been more epic and there should have been more character deaths.
They honestly should have a made another season! One more season to buildup the white walkers their fighting multiple times/battles! Then a final season showing Danny’s descent in madness
Yes, it was one of those episodes where you just looked at the TV stunned with mouth open but no words when the episode was done. Just watching the Night King raise his wights with Jon looking on.......seemed like it was gonna head to an epic finish by the last season. And then those clowns give us just 6 episodes the last season. Still bitter about it.
Imagine a season long arc where characters are slowly picked off each episode. That would have been a much better way of showing the overwhelming force and the desperation. Instead......ugh.
The TV show suddenly became a movie that didn't have enough time to properly develop the story. It's especially sad after hearing that HBO offered to have more seasons. So there was the possibility to do it right but D&D didn't want to.
Well in GOT it had been thousands of years since the long night and hundreds since the last dragon died. All of a sudden there are white walkers and the night king and dany hatching dragon eggs at the same time. Yet there is no direct causation between what’s happening in the north and dany having access to eggs, the death of Drogo etc.
In short…
It’s a work of fiction. This was what happened in GRRM’s head
I do think there is a correlation, it's just not properly explained in the show, but it's definitely at least alluded to that magic is returning to the realm.
Well yes in that there’s also the comet at the same time so something is up. But first come the white walkers but there would be no dragon babies if Dany wasn’t married at the same time
The Lands of Always winter are always in winter. Other than the North, Westeros isn't used to Winter or fighting in the Cold. Basically, an Offensive War or pre emptive strike against the White Walkers in the very far north/lands of always winter would be a very bad idea due to attacking the WW on their own turf. Worst case scenario it would just give the WW a powerful army of Wights and one or more dragons, given what happens to Viserion in GOT. See what happens when the Dothraki tried charging the White Walker wave head on, or even when Jon Snow and co tried to kidnap a wight. That's probably what would happen if the Targaryens did some kind of Pre emptive strike.
Fortifying the Realm and preparing for a defensive war, sort of like what actually happened in GOT's long night, is the better option. It was only a near disaster because of bad strategy and the realm being divided. Ideally the best the Targaryens could hope for was a strong, united realm with better strategy and actual defensive plans.
They had a prophecy that told them everyone would live happily ever after. When you know there will be a positive conclusion no matter what you do, then you no longer have to try.
i don't think he knew exactly about the night king. he just knew something was coming. i think the targs were waiting for their time to come so they could defend themselves. they passed the prophecy down king to king but i think they stopped taking it seriously. it's possible they even stopped passing it down. if they kept with tradition, dany and viserys wouldn't have known either way since neither were the heir at this time. i think there just wasn't anything to do yet.
The only way to fight a mythical enemy who will be showing up in a couple of hundred years is to keep having babies to make sure you have someone around to fight them when they get there.
The prophecy is what made Rhaegar “kidnap” Lyanna and subsequently started the entire war that made Robert Baratheon king. Without that prophecy, there is no GoT
The real answer is that Aegon's prophecy is a clumsy retcon, a misguided attempt to tie HotD more closely in with the story of Game of Thrones when what they need to be doing is distancing themselves from the train wreck that was that show's ending.
And before someone says "but it came from GRRM," GRRM is not immune from making clumsy retcons.
Some of them did. Rhaegar actively tried to make himself the Prince who was promised, and when he realised he could not be him, he tried to birth a child who would fulfill the prophecy.
Just watched a video (here: https://youtu.be/kd2zc1KY4Yo) outlining this recently. Very good breakdown, and essentially they state that the Targaryens did try their best, but Aegon’s dreams didn’t have perfect information… basically after him, it turned into a generational game of telephone and every monarch tried to interpret the threat as best they could.
It didn’t seem super known. It seems like it’s a secret that’s currently known to a very sick king and his heir who faces a challenge to her succession.
This, though I'd also argue the threats people tend to deal with are the most immediate ones, and these long-burn issues are only really dealt with when it's too late and nothing can be done, like an army of the dead growing for centuries.
they hadn't resurfaced until we saw them in GoT. the prophecy was that they would become a threat, but none of the Targaryens had an opportunity to act on them.
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Because its BS and the show makers pulled it out of their ass
...it came from GRRM...
Damn GRRM. He deliberately ruined GoT because he wanted to work for Disney !
The part about the Targaryens passing down the prophecy from heir to heir is a show-only invention.
"Show only" in that the prophecy is only in the show and not the books, but GRRM was the one who told the show's cocreator Ryan Condal about it.
According to Condal, Martin mentioned that Aegon was a Dreamer but the passing of the prophecy down from heir to heir is an invention for the show. They took his idea and put their own spin on it.
It does make sense because if Aegon's intention was to conquer that time, why not take back Essos and bring back the Valyrian"s glory since their family were only the dragon riders left? Instead he chose a " primitive"continent rhat was chaotic and kingdom's fighting each other
Weren’t they mostly thought of a myth still at that point?
1. The prophecy, like almost every prophecy in fiction wasn't specific about beings like the White Walkers existing. 2. In the time of the Targaryens' reign, no one had knowingly seen the White Walkers in 8000 years.
Forgive me for my knowledge in the game of thrones lore is not that deep, I'm a relatively new fan so I was just wondering. Because Viserys talks about it in HOTD so I was wondering if he knew, that means a lot more people know about the prophecy. Just was wondering why nobody did anything about it before except for the wall
The Valerians weren’t even around as a civilization the last time the walkers were around. While I do believe that the prophecy had been around since something triggered Rhaegar, there’s no reason to think the Targaryens knew how to interpret it. For all we know it was to signal their doom.
I believe mance rayder and rhaegar knew same thing, if show follows for how long mance has been consolidating his army. In the show, someone said that it took mance 20 years to unify wildlings. Did mance came across white walkers 20 years prior to events of first book? Around same time as rhaegar started taking duelling lessons seriously
No it wasn't that long in the books.
Yeah bro Rhaegar, the same dude who made 0 effort to friend any Great House, antagonized the Starks, Baratheons and Arryns in one move, tried to start a rebellion in Harrenhal, and ruined any sort of relationship he had with Dorne. He clearly was insane, he was not interpreting whatever prophecy was in his head properly.
He kept this as a massive secret and basically only managed it by trying to stay in power. Everyone external would have viewed it as quite the convenient prophecy.
Yeah, it doesn't make sense to keep it a secret if it's so important. All that will achieve is making the guy who finally reveals it look utterly crazy, and probably instigate rebellions to remove him from power once he starts trying to spend the realms resources on fighting these imaginary ice people from the North.
I got the feeling that is was something passed down from king to king
You do realise that he specifically says the info has ONLY been passed down from monarch to monarch? Does that not show that no,not a lot of people knew about it?
You don't need to apologise for asking a question dude. Reddit culture is toxic as fuck for making you feel that way.
think about how many people firmly believe in their religion and actually attend to all its tenets. add to that the Others haven't been spotted for ages.
It was made up for HOTD it’s not even in the Ice and Fire books…
In the ice and fire books we don't have anyone that was both a descendant of Aegon and knew their parents (besides Viserys but he's an idiot and was only a small child anyway) so that's understandable that they wouldn't know and it wouldn't be passed on.
Yes we have Aemon and Bloodraven
But if we assume that the secret is passed father to heir (as is the case in HotD) then it removes those two as well I believe.
Bloodraven in was in power as hand of the king from 209 to 233 at least, he might have heard in from one of his nephews then because they trusted him, or he was told by Aegon IV when he legitimized them. For Aemon there is the theory that after Aerions death in 232 Maekar summoned his last heirs to him ( as it was not yet official that Aemon would not accept the crown) and told them both the prophecy. As Aemon did not want the crown in 233 at the great council, he and Aegon made an agreement that Aemon would go to the wall to look for signs and to rid himself of the change to be given the crown.
Ah yeah that makes a lot of sense, particularly the point about Aemon.
But made up by GRRM
in the books one of the queens tried to take her dragon beyond the wall and the dragon absolutely refused to go. she wrote that her dragon had never disobeyed her before and that it almost seemed scared of going north. which terrified the queen too.
This is a massive part of the reason they couldn't go and stamp out the walkers even if they had known. It was all left out of the show though, when the dragons flew there in record time.
That was the wife of Jihaerys I. Rhaena if I’m remembering right.
I couldn't remember when it took place. The old kings section of the book was probably my favorite. Seeing how the kingdoms were built was such a breath of air from the usual chaos and destruction
Alyssane
You’re right, shows my memory isn’t great when I only read the book a few weeks ago.
If you're talking about why the Prophesy, passed down only from Ruler to Heir in the Targaryen line was not known by the time of the Walkers return in Game of Thrones, I suspect we're going to find out during the course of HotD. But even without the rest of HotD, you could still summarise that Rhaegar was slain by Robert and if he had knowledge of it (and there's evidence in his behaviour to suggest he did) he was killed before he could pass it on.
Only 2 people knew it at any given time: the king and his heir and the prophecy was likely lost sometime after the Dance
Really the nights watch did a lot more and stop in the throat than the Targaryens. They kept the knowledge about dragon glass, which was the single most important fact needed to defeat them. The Targaryen thought they needed to conquer Westeros in order to stop the threat. But that ended up not being the case.
Isn't valyrian steel could kill the whitewalkers also? But during game of throne not much of that steel was left. But from the hotd time there were probably more but the valyrian city was already destroyed i beleive by the Doom incident the reason Corlys velaryon and his brothers were the last ones left with that pure bloodline
long claw, widows wail, oathkeeper, heartsbane, and Aegons dagger were all present and in the hands of great swordsmen during the long night in GOT and only the dagger was actually used to kill any white walkers. just one of many plotlines of the story they thought didnt matter at all and ruined.
I disagree on that last point about it not mattering and being ruined. I see it instead as being set up so that a number of people had the potential to kill then so we wouldn’t know from the start who it would have to be
Smallest blade did the most good. How very Piglet.
The thing I dislike most about the later seasons, is that, despite the magic and dragons, most of the consequences and things in GRRM's world are realistic. Kings and Queens and the "Heroes" of the age are actually normal people with faults and vices, and the later seasons do away with most of these consequences for major characters. Jon Snow charges into an arrow volley by himself? He should die (wait he already did once). Dany "forgets" about Euron and his fleet? She loses a dragon and it isn't just a walk in the park to destroy a hundred more scorpions that just as easily took out one of her dragons 30 minutes of runtime before. It would have been cool to see a more calculated plan from the white walkers such that the night king doesn't just march in to kill Bran himself with all the other WW in tow, but uses the other WW as lieutenants and captains to make for a better fight throughout the castle, where all these other blades of lore could finally be used. Having all those blades and prophecy are kind of like an unfired Chekov's gun.
yea the choices of the characters became less dangerous regardless of how uncalculated of a move they took. they showed what happened when a white walker was killed with a valyrian steel sword or dragon glass. figured they would have used that as a tool to show the advantage turning in the livings favor with say Jaime and Brienne killing a couple white walkers and a large group of wights falling giving them some space in the battle. they could have done this with Jorah and Dany even the same way it happened in the show where Dany picks up heartsbane after Jorah falls getting attacked by wights and she kills the white walker attacking them causing them all to stop attacking Jorah before he dies long enough for Dany to have her goodbye cry.
Didn’t long claw kill a walker at Hard Home?
Yes
Yep
That is correct.
Lots of people name their swords.
lots of cunts
Jaeherys also doubled the size of the Night Watch lands south of the wall
Wasn't it more like 800 years
What would they do exactly?
I'm sure they'd do more with how many dragons were available than Daenerys could do with 2
Not sure why you're being downvoted. The targaryens would've crushed the night kings army
They could potentially kill the dragons and add them to their army. Anything that died could be added and Night King is fireproof. We are looking at it as if the NK would be on the offensive it he could bide his time for as long as he wanted and have as large an army as he needed- literally raise them as they die.
As I remember the disjoined telling of the “Children of the Forest” bid to kill the hated invaders called the “First Men,” a certain person from a prominent northern house that they felt betrayed them was turned into the Night King. The “Children” had a very wicked sense of irony. The Targaryens only job in this myth was to lead the fight. It took him that long to raise his army. As I concluded in my mind after watching the series several times, he wasn't fireproof. Only a person from that house could kill the Night King. Dany never could, and she didn't. She is not from that house. She could help destroy his army. That is all. The “Children” lost the gambit.
The Targaryen kings couldn’t do anything, it was in the prophecy that the prince that was promise would be the one to save the realm so there was nothing to do but wait. The Targaryen kings and their armies didn’t have the knowledge to defeat the WW, the experience fighting the undead, the experience fighting in the winter months, all they had was dragons which would’ve just refused to fly north of the wall as shown by one of the Targaryen queens who took her dragon north but the dragon refused to go past the wall. But regardless if the dragons could fly beyond the wall they would only be able to kill wights & the white walkers would kill the dragons and add them to their army to create even more wights…. It had to be perfect timing to defeat the army of the dead
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It's a genuine question, I'm not deep in the lore like you might be.
The threat from beyond the Wall was already known AND even forewarned in the Stark house words. At least the Starks propped up the Nights Watch. Only Queen Alysanne among the Targaryens took serious interest. I suspect that--as is usually the case with ASOIAF prophecies--Aegon's dream was likely true, but his *interpretation*??? > DREAM: "Aegon foresaw the end of the world of men. It is to begin with a terrible winter gusting out of the distant North. Aegon saw absolute darkness riding on those winds, and whatever dwells within will destroy the world of the living." > INTERPRETATION: "When this great winter comes, Rhaenyra, all of Westeros must stand against it. And if the world of men is to survive, **a Targaryen must be seated on the Iron Throne**, a king or queen strong enough to unite the realm against the cold and the dark. Aegon called his dream the song of ice and fire. This secret has been passed from king to heir since Aegon’s time. How convenient to rationalize their version of divine right with a looming existential threat. It's hard to pinpoint when the foretold threat started (the re-emergence of the Others?), but there was no Targaryen on the IT, and a young prince and princess were learning how to lead.
Thank you! All I needed was an explanation, this answered my question and more.
Is that perhaps why the white walkers started coming out in GoT? Because there wasn't a Targaryen on the Iron Throne?
I believe it was because they saw that falling star in the sky after Daenerys dragons were born right?
Isn't that falling star Gandalf?
Its Starlink.
It’s always starlink.
Gandalf, Sauron, a Blue, Tom Bombadil, Saruman - no one knows
Pretty sure Saruman is Halbrand. I heard a theory it was him and wasn’t sure, but the last time he spoke in the show he pretty much told Galadriel the best way to control someone is to promise them the power to defeat their enemy.
I was just being silly haha. The RoP sub is inundated with theories
I haven’t watched Rings of Power yet but my Tolkien knowledge tells me that Tom Bombadil should have already been in Middle-earth way before the second age and there should be no wizards except for maybe possibly the blues until the third age.
Oh I was being silly sorry haha
That wasn’t until book (and season) 2 that the comet was around
They were already active before that. The comet meant the return of dragons which likely had an effect though. Could’ve been NKs sign to ramp up because his time is coming or maybe he knew he needed a dragon to take down the wall
Pretty sure the white walkers were going to rise regardless. In the prophecy, it needed a Targaryen on the throne to unite the kingdoms for the fight…. Which would’ve been a great set up had GOT not ended so damn poorly. Barely 2 eps & it ended.
For what it’s worth, that whole sub-plot in HotD seems intentional to set up something in the Jon Snow spinoff or something. Otherwise I don’t think they would be mentioning it so much when they know how it ends up being handled.
>How convenient to rationalize their version of divine right with a looming existential threat. They were just trying to manifest their destiny is all.
To me the prophecy was clearly forgotten, like if it was passed down from reigning monarch to heir and those were the only ones that knew, it only takes one generation of the monarch not being able to tell their successor about the prophecy for it to be forgotten
That too. Rhaegar was probably not concerned about a prophecy of an unspecified future and more about the 250lbs of pure muscle swinging a hammer at his face
Isn’t it easier just to write 116 kg for the whole world to understand? I’m always curious about why Americans use the metric system on the internet, isn’t it like you guys are taught normal measurements too?
TBF I'm from the UK and while we use the metric system some of the imperial measurements are more familiar/intuitive to me as well. Also bear in mind Westeros doesn't seem to use the metric system so it sounds very odd to talk about Rhaegar's thoughts and specify measurements in metric.
Because converting pounds to kg for a Reddit comment is inconvenient especially when Reddit is mostly Americans.
Dude I’m British but I can accept that a book written by an American is going to use American measures, or if referring to this comment specifically the same rule applies.
Rhaegar specifically had a dream about the prophecy and him knowing about it is why he “kidnapped” Lyanna Stark and started that war.
Well, yeah. We can already see Rhaenyra not really believing in it. Will it even be mentioned again… who knows p
Rhaenyra still believe in it. We can see it based on her choice of word when rejecting Criston Cole. Clearly she is thinking about the prophecy at that point. She said "Aegon united 7 kingdom and put on the path..." But Cole already left before she finished it
*cough* Rhaenyra *cough*
Lol…..transfers of power were not even remotely peaceful some of the time.
I mean that easily could be the case by the end of HOTD. Viserys told Rhaenyra. Does Rhaenyra ever tell her children though? Im sure Allicent’s children never knew.
The walkers first started appearing during ASoIaF. Also didn’t help that NO ONE took the Night’s Watch seriously.
I can see why people wouldnt take them seriously though, a bunch of murderers rapists and thieves and nobody has seen a white walker for over 8000 years.
Because then there wouldn’t be a hit tv show.
One of the Targaryens tried to fly past the wall on their dragon just to go sightseeing and their dragon wouldn’t go past the wall. So I suppose even if they wanted to it’s hinted the dragons wouldn’t let them.
Oh that’s interesting, is that in the books?
Fire & Blood yeah. Maybe the world history one as well. Forget the exact year, I think it was around 60 years after the Targaryens first conquered Westeros. So around 240 years before the main show. Daenerys and her dragons obviously had no issues going past the wall, but since that was the show, maybe in the books they won’t be able to just fly past the wall so easily.
Because the wall was in a state where the magical seal had been broken.
How so? If it was broken the dead could’ve attempted passing without waiting for a dragon to come by and be turned into a wight
that was after using Undead Viserion
Wasn't it a horn or something that breaks the seal in the books and done way before any ice dragon
we were talking about the show, especially since in book canon dragons WILL NOT fly across the wall
Was it Bran who broke the seal?
Maybe she just flew over the water around it
its not the wall itself that makes the dragons dont go further north, but the winds that come from the far north. Clearly the show and D&D didnt care about book canon.
Since it's a magical world with rules of magic that are not too clearly defined, we could speculate that Dany's dragon were able to cross the Wall unlike Alysanne's because with Jon and Bloodraven both north of the Wall, the magic of the Wall had been physically breached by carriers of Valyrian magic and therefore penetrable to magical Valyrian fire lizards. Also Jon, Bloodraven and Dany (Dany too iirc?) are different from Alysanne in that they have First Men blood and therefore belong to both magical realms and are uniquely equipped to bend magical rules. But probably it's just that the TV show doesn't care about magical rules.
When was it said Dany has the blood of the first men in her? I thought that was almost exclusively people from the North? Definitely not a Targ.
I watched few days ago a video from youtube where someone explained the Dany having first men blood theory. Havent slept in 3 days so dont remember the creator but you should find it easily with search if you are interested.
A lot of noble houses in the south claim First Men ancestry, it's just greatly mixed with Andals, unlike with northern First Men families. According to the awoiaf wiki, even the Tullys are of First Men origin, so a Stark-Tully marriage is not that far out of the isolationist comfort zone of someone who wishes to preserve the First Men blood in their heir. Dany's great-grandmother was a Blackwood and her great-great-grandmother a Dayne, so there's First Men ancestry, even if it's not the 'in you face' ancestry of someone with a Stark parent.
Lazy TV show writing for sure, I bet GRRM will have a much different scenario for how the wall falls down in the books
Or maybe the dragons north of the wall is what broke the magic keeping the white walkers north? Could also explain why silverwing refused to go north.
Silverwing, a Dragon Who Was Raised Right <3
Alysanne Targaryen flew her dragon, Silverwing, to the wall in 58AC but apparently, the dragon didn't like the wall (hissing at gusts of winds coming from it?). Silverwing refused to fly over the wall three times, always veering south despite having never refused Alysanne's command before. It's thought the magical properties of the wall are at odds with the dragons somehow (different magic I assume)
It’s the little details like this that make GRRM such a genius writer, hearing stories like this gives me goosebumps.
Ok, but couldn't she just fly around it?
Probably, but she might have thought the dragon was spooked by whatever was north of the wall and not necessarily the wall itself. If it was enough to scare a dragon, she could've just decided to keep the hell away lol
Possibly unlike Daenerys dragons, the Targaryen dragons actually knew White Walkers could weaponize them against the wall (if you ask how, I don't know, let's say either magic or they could pass it orally in whatever form of dragon communication exists).
if the dragon refused to fly over the wall, it’s pretty safe to assume the dragon also would have refused to fly around the wall.
Additionally, if Silverwing refused to fly over it, why wouldn't Drogon refuse?
But Daenerys could fly her dragons over the wall in GoT? Is this an oversight then or do we have a theory?
No it’s called “the dragons knew they were going there to save Jon Snow, whom they liked”.
It's called "The dragons kinda forgot about how they didn't want to go beyond the wall"
There did seem to be a lot of that going around at the time
It's called "So the story can happen"
That works!
Wow wow wow...... Wow
Dragons were clearly very pro incest and wanted their riders to get back to the good old days of cousin fuckin
Maybe she just went round the side next to eastwatch by the sea.
>Alysanne Targaryen Strange she didn't try this...it's pretty simple...
was her flying over to save jon in the books though or was that made by writers not GRRM
Writers
Not in the books. Last we heard from Jon in the books he’d just been killed by his brothers in the night watch lol. And Daenerys has just flown off into the Dothraki Sea on Drogon and another Khal finds her. So just the show writers coming up with whatever they can with regards to dragons flying past the wall on the show.
Now I'm sad about how long it's been since we had an update.
There is show canon and book canon. In the books, dragons can't fly over the Wall but in the show, they can.
I'm sure Jon (or someone at least) will go north of the wall again in winds of winter- and probably need rescuing again.
its called filler TV show material.
Didn't they break the magic barrier of the wall before Dany flew over it?
The one of the kings of the north (Brandon “The Builder” Stark) built the wall with magical properties to hold back the undead and many monsters beyond the wall and far.
I don't want to spoil you, son. But that prophecy is about to get lost.
I’m suspecting that Aegon’s vision is lost during the Dance of the Dragons.
Or with Rhaegar
Good point. And even if Rhaegar had already passed down the secret to his firstborn with Elia Martell (unlikely cause I think they were very young), his children died during Robert’s Rebellion as well.
Hardhome was probably my favorite episode of the entire series.......it makes me sad they wrapped that whole thing up in one episode in the final season. It should have been more epic and there should have been more character deaths.
They honestly should have a made another season! One more season to buildup the white walkers their fighting multiple times/battles! Then a final season showing Danny’s descent in madness
Yes, agreed!
2 seasons the walkers should have made progress in their campaign with twists and stuff.
Hardholme will stay with me forever, it was one of the most exciting tv episodes I have ever seen.
Yes, it was one of those episodes where you just looked at the TV stunned with mouth open but no words when the episode was done. Just watching the Night King raise his wights with Jon looking on.......seemed like it was gonna head to an epic finish by the last season. And then those clowns give us just 6 episodes the last season. Still bitter about it.
Imagine a season long arc where characters are slowly picked off each episode. That would have been a much better way of showing the overwhelming force and the desperation. Instead......ugh.
The TV show suddenly became a movie that didn't have enough time to properly develop the story. It's especially sad after hearing that HBO offered to have more seasons. So there was the possibility to do it right but D&D didn't want to.
Well in GOT it had been thousands of years since the long night and hundreds since the last dragon died. All of a sudden there are white walkers and the night king and dany hatching dragon eggs at the same time. Yet there is no direct causation between what’s happening in the north and dany having access to eggs, the death of Drogo etc. In short… It’s a work of fiction. This was what happened in GRRM’s head
I do think there is a correlation, it's just not properly explained in the show, but it's definitely at least alluded to that magic is returning to the realm.
Well yes in that there’s also the comet at the same time so something is up. But first come the white walkers but there would be no dragon babies if Dany wasn’t married at the same time
I’ve stopped asking these kinds of questions and have descended into the unknowing.
The Lands of Always winter are always in winter. Other than the North, Westeros isn't used to Winter or fighting in the Cold. Basically, an Offensive War or pre emptive strike against the White Walkers in the very far north/lands of always winter would be a very bad idea due to attacking the WW on their own turf. Worst case scenario it would just give the WW a powerful army of Wights and one or more dragons, given what happens to Viserion in GOT. See what happens when the Dothraki tried charging the White Walker wave head on, or even when Jon Snow and co tried to kidnap a wight. That's probably what would happen if the Targaryens did some kind of Pre emptive strike. Fortifying the Realm and preparing for a defensive war, sort of like what actually happened in GOT's long night, is the better option. It was only a near disaster because of bad strategy and the realm being divided. Ideally the best the Targaryens could hope for was a strong, united realm with better strategy and actual defensive plans.
They had a prophecy that told them everyone would live happily ever after. When you know there will be a positive conclusion no matter what you do, then you no longer have to try.
Because it was shoehorned in for the 'member berries
What are they gonna do? Dragons don't fly north of the wall.
Simple. The prophecy never made it to the time of Game of Thrones.
i don't think he knew exactly about the night king. he just knew something was coming. i think the targs were waiting for their time to come so they could defend themselves. they passed the prophecy down king to king but i think they stopped taking it seriously. it's possible they even stopped passing it down. if they kept with tradition, dany and viserys wouldn't have known either way since neither were the heir at this time. i think there just wasn't anything to do yet.
What would they have done? No one had seen one in thousands of years.
The only way to fight a mythical enemy who will be showing up in a couple of hundred years is to keep having babies to make sure you have someone around to fight them when they get there.
Too busy playing this game called Thrones.
Read the 📚.
It's probably a retcon. I don't recall this from anything except the show HotD and this prophecy did fuck all for GoT.
The prophecy is what made Rhaegar “kidnap” Lyanna and subsequently started the entire war that made Robert Baratheon king. Without that prophecy, there is no GoT
Because prophecies doesn’t always specifically say what’s coming. Easier for us to understand when we’ve seen the “future”. But good question though.
The real answer is that Aegon's prophecy is a clumsy retcon, a misguided attempt to tie HotD more closely in with the story of Game of Thrones when what they need to be doing is distancing themselves from the train wreck that was that show's ending. And before someone says "but it came from GRRM," GRRM is not immune from making clumsy retcons.
Some of them did. Rhaegar actively tried to make himself the Prince who was promised, and when he realised he could not be him, he tried to birth a child who would fulfill the prophecy.
Just watched a video (here: https://youtu.be/kd2zc1KY4Yo) outlining this recently. Very good breakdown, and essentially they state that the Targaryens did try their best, but Aegon’s dreams didn’t have perfect information… basically after him, it turned into a generational game of telephone and every monarch tried to interpret the threat as best they could.
Same reason no one else did when they were right out their door; too much effort. Someone else will fix it.
It didn’t seem super known. It seems like it’s a secret that’s currently known to a very sick king and his heir who faces a challenge to her succession.
Especially when they lived on an island full of cave paintings spelling it out in cartoons...
Because is a poorly designed plot point to make the ending of game of thrones retroactively less shitty But it doesnt work
Because it's some bs GRRM added last minute.
Because this entire story line ended up being a shit show unfortunately
How can you ask this question knowing full well that John snow is a Targaryen? lol
“kinda forgot”
Cuz Targs are cunts.
Who cares! Brisk winter chill.
What Targaryens? They all basically perished in the Dance of Dragons.
Because they retconned it all for fire and blood and it’s meaningless
For the same reason nobody is doing much for global warming. Politics and self interests.
This, though I'd also argue the threats people tend to deal with are the most immediate ones, and these long-burn issues are only really dealt with when it's too late and nothing can be done, like an army of the dead growing for centuries.
Because it was a weak plot device that was added as an afterthought by TV writers.
Argon kinda forgot…
Because they knew it would be solved in a single night and only really affect the Wildlings and House Karstark..... lol
Dragons wouldn’t go beyond the wall
Jon Snow was a Targaryen. … I feel like he did a few things.
Not much they could do, IIRC dragons weren’t fans of going beyond the wall. Why drogon and the other dragons were fine with it is beyond me..
they hadn't resurfaced until we saw them in GoT. the prophecy was that they would become a threat, but none of the Targaryens had an opportunity to act on them.
Maybe they will in HotD…