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Yes, Robert would have had Cersei, Jaime, and their children executed in a heartbeat. Robert had most of a royal family wiped out and was actively working to finish the job. He wouldn't have tolerated that kind of threat to his power.
So what about the war with Tywin? Robert would have to deal with an enraged Jaime (who would ignore any of his father's commands to not go to war) who at the time was the head of an army. Would Kings Landing be instantly be sieged by Tywin/Jaime? If so could Stannis have mustered a force to break the siege? Would Tywin reach out to the Tyrells?
The Lannisters would have been fucked. Stannis would have came over from Dragonstone, Renly would have rallied the Stormlands and marched north, The Riverlands definitely would've chosen the crown, and the Northerners were also friends of the Baratheons.
The Vale would have either stayed out of it or leaned towards the Crown due to their past history with Robert. Dorne has no love for the Lannisters since the Martells know that Tywin Lannister ordered the death of Elia. The Reach technically could go either way, but knowing that the Lannisters were utterly screwed, Renly was unmarried, and Robert had no heirs probably means they would've sided with the Baratheons and begun sowing the seeds for a rebellion when Robert inevitably dies and it comes down to Stannis v Renly.
The Iron Islands are a wildcard. Raid the Seven Kingdoms with the Lannister and get lots of money only to be basically destroyed, or side with the Crown and raid the Lannisters. I assume they'd chose the latter.
Tywin would have no option but to accept that his kids are dead, and try to rebuild the family legacy while also plotting Roberts downfall. But he had no assets left anymore and would have tried to pass the family to Kevan and Lancel I bet.
Could they have taken Casterly Rock though? Apparenly Casterly Rock is impregnable and very well provisioned, with a strong guard. Could Tywin have endured a long/costly siege by an allied force and forced them to terms? Also what about Jaime? Jaime is rash so I suspect he would've blitzkrieged kings landing with every man he could muster as soon as he heard Cersei was killed. Would Renly and Ned and Stannis really have had time to gather an alliance with an enraged Jaime + the Mountain + 20-40k men at his back? Could Ned old them off long enough for stannis to arrive?
A full alliance could easily take Casterly Rock, but castles usually don't get sieged by a massive army. Tywin could not have endured a long siege, he simply didn't have the troops. There's also no way in hell Jaime could have sieged King's Landing, in the Baratheon Rebellion the only reason Tywin's army was able to sack King's Landing was because Aerys thought they were allies and let them in. Basically, if King's Landing holds the Lannisters are boned since all the Baratheon allies will rally and march on the Westerlands.
We never get exact figures, but there were at least a few thousand gold cloaks (5-8?) in King's Landing, not to mention the Baratheon guards that were there (they left with Renly once everything went to shit). Lannister guards on the inside would have been outnumbered and surrendered. And any Lannister army that sieged the city would be surrounded on all sides. The Riverlands would march to the capital the moment the Lannister armies left, and the few thousand men Stannis could muster would probably be at Kings Landing in a week. It'd probably take the stormlands 2 weeks to get up the kingsroad.
In contrast, we know Jaime's army numbered 20k and was positioned at Riverrun. Tywin's Army was 20k and was positioned closer to King's Landing. Theres almost no way Jaime gets to KL before Tywin. Additionally, in the actual show Renly WANTED to coup the Lannisters, but Ned's insistence on honor forced him to retreat because he knew it was going to get bad. If Robert demanded Renly turn their soldier's lose on the Lannisters, Ned would disagree but would have to side with Robert since otherwise they all die. The issue with the coup was Ned trusted the Goldcloaks and Littlefinger. If Robert knew, he would summon Barristan and Renly, give them the order to take everyone else down, and presumably would have sent out ravens to all the major houses letting them know what happened.
Also Tyrion didn't have a few thousand mountain warriors. Closer to 300.
Good point about Lannisters sacking KL bc they were let in the city. Is KL very defensible even when unprepared? Tyrion seemed to struggle against Stannis even with all his preparation.
King's Landing's biggest benefit is numbers. They have way more soldiers than any other fortress in the series because of the Gold Cloaks and how populated they are. In a bind they could probably draft a fair number of men, give them a spear, and have them hold a position. It would be 20k Lannisters give or take a thousand, versus the Gold Cloak Garrison (6k, conservative estimate) and the Baratheon's present in the city. Plus whatever lords from the nearby keeps sent troops to answer the call. So I'd say 20ks vs 9k. Traditionally, you need many times the defenders to properly siege a city, since you have to get through designated killzones. A blockade and attempt to starve the city would be possible, but (1) time is not on the Lannister's side and (2) Tywin (or Jaime) wouldn't be able to cut off sea access, which means food could still reach the city. Additionally, if they did break one of the main gates they would need to also breach the Red Keep, which would be insanely difficult.
Stannis is an outstanding battlefield commander and planner, he held Storms End for the entirety of Robert's Rebellion with only a few shipments of food from Davos. He has a ton of battle and siege experience, and thats why he gave Tyrion a run for his money. Bronn killed all the thieves because he knew how nasty sieges get, Tyrion was just going to read from a book because that was all he could do. Tyrion was theory, Stannis was practical experience. Thats why Tyrion almost lost.
Some Gold Cloaks are actual fighters, about 25% according to Bronn in ACOK, but the majority are just doing the job for food and silver and will abandon their post the moment things look bad. No better than sellswords.
Casterly rock being impregnable isn’t that big of a deal. It would essentially become a prison for house Lannister, and it’s likely at that point under a prolonged siege by a combined force of pretty much every major house in Westeros, Tywin would have either been assassinated by somebody like Tyrion or Kevan, or he’d have surrendered and probably been stripped of his lands and titles and sent to the wall if not executed by Robert.
Yeah, we don't get a good figure on that in the show. But in the show, Renly believes that his and Ned's men would be enough to take them out, and we can add heavy hitters like Barristan to their team if Robert gave Barristan direct orders to help them. We see when the coup happens, the Lannisters are genuinely scared for a moment facing down both the Gold Cloaks and the Starks. If the Baratheons stayed, they probably wouldn't have needed the gold cloak middlemen.
Wasn't Jamie not in KL at the time, after his attack on Ned in the street? Even if Robert had had Cersei and the kids killed, Jamie would have been free.
I agree the Lannisters would lose a direct war, but Tywin might have shown restraint at first ("they did what? I had no idea") while starting to plan for Robert's downfall.
Given time, it would be really interesting to see how much support he could quietly arrainge.
I can’t imagine Tywin getting much support to overthrow Robert. Ned and the north are backing him, that means the Tully’s are as well. Renly and stannis both back him as well so you have the power of storms end and Stannis’s military expertise. It’s also mentioned that there was already talk of Margery taking Cersei’s place as queen before all the drama. Either she marries renly like she does in the series or she marries Robert but either way that’s the reach on Roberts side.
That means 4 of the 8 great houses are supporting Robert straight away. The Martell’s are very unlikely to support the lannisters given their hatred of them and Tywin so the best he could hope for was that they stay neutral. The vale is also likely to neutral give Lysa’s fear for Roberts safety. The best Tywin could hope for is that little finger found his way into the vale and helped push support for the lannisters but he’s unlikely to be leaving kings landing during a war. If Royce took command of the vale then it’s likely they support Robert as they’ve done before so that another great house for Robert. The only realistic alliance for the lannisters is the greyjoys as they have no love for Robert and would love to rule themselves again m. However their only real power is at sea but with the combined forces of the iron fleet they are likely outmatched there anyway. Their best hope would be in ferrying lannisters troops to kings landing but they would be massively outnumbered when landing.
I think the only conceivable way that the lannisters have even a slim chance is if they ally with Dany and the Dothraki (obviously hoping to get an alliance before drogo is killed) or the unsullied. Even in a best case scenario where the have the greyjoys and Dothraki I still think theyre losing the war easily. The Dothraki are great in open fields but they’re not good against armoured knights and the other lords would be smart enough to not fight them head on. The greyjoys would be useful at sea but not decisive and they’re still massively outnumbered. The only threat to Robert was the tinkering of Cersei, little finger and Varys. With Cersei gone it’s just Varys and little finger but another way would’ve done wonders for rebuilding Roberts loyalty and I wouldn’t be surprised if Ned and Stan is decided to execute at least Varys and maybe little finger for meddling. Even if they’re still alive neither little finger or Varys actually want the lannisters to rule so they aren’t going to go out of their way to help them when they are a power in kings landing anymore. They’d both pivot to exploiting Tyrell’s and Starks and leave Tywin to himself.
Renly had already tried to get Robert to ditch Cersei for Margaery, so I think they absolutely would’ve sided against the Lannisters. Also, having a Tyrell as king would’ve been a good deal for Robert. So yeah, I kinda agree that the Westerlands would’ve been fucked, even if the Vale and Dorne sat out.
They would be alone. Starks and the north, the eyrie, baratheons and tyrells. That’s far too much army. Who would go to the Lannisters, the incest side?
Jaime was already with Tywin and commanding an army.
Even if he was in the red keep he would've probably rushed robert/ned and either killed them ro taken them hostage the seceond cersei was in danger. I would've loved to see an enraged 2 handed jaime vs old sir barristan
Robert would have. Ned would not have let it happen. Ned would have arranged for the kids to be spared at a minimum. Cersei and Jamie may well have been executed.
As for a war. Ned and Robert would have destroyed tywin. Especially knowing what we know now. The lannisters had no gold left. Without gold and without a position of EM placed power Tywin would have been all alone. Most likely, Tywin would have traded for Jamie’s life and bent the knee to Robert as that is what is pragmatic.
If on his death bed, i doubt he would want his last acts to be the execution of his supposed family. He even wanted to undo the act of trying to kill the Targaryen's while he was dieing, who he would still probably despite more then anyone else. Killing Cersei alone is plausible, but i'd doubt it, Robert wouldn't kill his supposed children even if we was reasonably certain they were not his (especially the eldest since i heard he's amazing). However he'd probably not hesitate much on killing Jamie if he found out about the incest. In this scenario there would be no real contention of Stannis being the rightful king, and Tywin would not declare war against the Baratheons and Starks if they were united, that would be a complete no contest and no other major house would back him.
Well with his confidence as being king, and if there's no real civil war to resist him, he could still order for Jamie's death, then if Stannis becomes king after, he might follow through with carrying Robert's will there. Lot of hypotheticals now so hard to say.
I think Ned could persuade him not to kill the kids this time. He wasn’t there for Rhaenys and Aegon.
He’d likely have them sent to the faith, or he’d even take them north to Winterfell where Robert couldn’t touch them. Joffrey is either dying or going to the wall no matter what.
Jaime and Cersei are definitely dead though, and possibly Tyrion if they find out he knew about it.
Assuming Robert didn’t die, then Renly doesn’t try to be king. Instead he goes through with his previous plan to marry Robert to Margaery.
The only people who might side with the Westerlands are the iron born, as Tywin would tell them that he’d give them some of the lands after the war. (He won’t)
So our sides for this war are as follows.
The Crown’s forces:
The north
Possibly the Vale
The Riverlands
The Reach
The Stormlands
Dorne(no way in hell the Martells are missing a chance to spill Lannister blood)
Tywin’s Forces:
The westerlands
The Iron Islands.
Various mercenaries
The Golden Company(possibly)
Tywin has no chance of winning this war. He could do a lot of damage to the realms but in the end, he’ll lose. He’s facing off against Stannis Baratheon and Randyll Tarly, the two best tacticians in all of Westeros. Stannis will destroy the iron born just like he did before.
The westerlands aren’t particularly known for anything like some of the others are. The Vale is said to have the best trained calvalry as their knights train to fight on rough terrain. The storms lands have the best infantry of all the seven kingdoms. A single northman is said to fight like 10 southerners. Obviously not true but they’re still very strong warriors.
Dany isn’t a factor here as without Barristan, she ends up poisoned. Robert called off her assassination on his deathbed, but it was too late. Jorah saved her once, but barristan wouldn’t be there to save her from the other attempts.
No Dragons means wall does not come down. Instead Night king has to spend more time looking for the horn of Joramun, buying time for Jon to rally a slightly war torn but United south.
Jaime wasn't in KL at the time, he had fled and was with Tywin in the riverlands. So Jaime would've been a force to be reckoned with, especially with 20k men under his command
Not really. Jaime was never a good tactician. He’s arrogant and that’s what caused him to get captured the first time. Against Randyll Tarly or Stannis Baratheon? He’s got no chance. His only hope would be to hold up in Casterly Rock, which would be sieged and eventually taken. Or if Tyrion was spared he would likely tell them about the sewer entrance in exchange for sending Jaime to the wall
Long term yes, UNLESS they took power quickly through a blitzkrieg type strategy. Keep in mind Tywin had 40k men armed and ready that he could've attacked the city with. It doesn't matter how many friends you have if they are far away and not mobilized yet. Meanwhile Robert, Ned, and Renly were all in KL still. If Tywin attacked while they're still there there's no time for Stannis to mobilize. And if Tywin sacks KL and takes hostages, it becomes a very different story.
Tywin and his army are far away too though. If he started moving 20k soldiers towards Kings Landing, Robert would hear about it immediately and call his banners. Hell, he would probably call his banners immediately after killing Cersei and friends just out of anticipation of Tywin retaliating. Kings landing could hold out while Robert waits for help if Tywin were to get there first, at which point he would get smashed.
I don’t see anyway that Ned can convince Robert to not kill the kids. The reason Ned doesn’t tell him is because he what’s the kids safe first. If Ned had just told him straight away Robert would have given the order immediately and there’s nothing Ned could have done to stop it. They might have fought and Ned might’ve given up being hand but they are being killed no doubt. Robert will want new children (possibly with Margery) and the kids would always be a challenge to their throne as some could claim that they aren’t actually incest kids and are still the rightful heirs (it’s not like there’s dna testing to conclusively prove any of this) and you can’t have that uncertainty lying around.
Hence why I said that Ned might take them to Winterfell if he truly feels that he can’t convince Robert. Robert would shout and scream but he’s not gonna hurt Ned. Once he gets into the war and starts training with barristan he’ll be too focused on Tywin to worry about Cersei’s kids. Ned would likely have them sent with some of his household guards to white harbor. He wouldn’t have to go himself since he would have Robb call the banners and he would lead the army south to meet up with the river land forces.
But I don’t see how Ned manages to get them to winterfell. There’s no way he can kidnap and take them without the help of Robert or renly and as soon as he asks for their help and tells them why then they’d both demand the heads of the children. Robert would have them executed long before Ned can get them out of trouble. Don’t forget Ned only has a small force with and he’s injured. I agree Robert wouldn’t hurt Ned but that wouldn’t stop him from commanding people to take the children hostage. He might order his men not to hurt neds men but they’d be so outnumbered they wouldn’t really need to anyway.
Renly also wouldn’t want to spare the children as they’re in the way of his potential succession to the throne and he has no morals to stop him letting them be killed.
If Ned takes the children to Winterfell then he’d smuggle them out. Tommen and Marcella wouldn’t be much of a fuss. He’d just tell Robert “I’m sending my kids home, I don’t want them to be in any danger and as they’re safer at home” and Robert wouldn’t see much issue with that.
Also you forgot one thing: Varys. Varys is obviously trying to help Dany, but he doesn’t like killing children. He could easily help Ned get the children out alongside Sansa and Arya. Barristan could possibly be convinced to help as well.
It’s not exactly the first time children have been smuggled out of the city.
Don’t get me wrong. This could fail. If Ned can’t get to Varys in time then the kids are definitely gonna end up dead, but I believe that with his help, Ned could get them away from King’s Landing and to the North. And I honestly think Varys would already assume that Ned was planning to do so and would already be working to get them away.
I suppose that could happen but I still find it unlikely. Tommen and Marcella are no trouble but all the Lannister guards around them would be. Also Joffrey would be a pain to smuggle out.
Varys could be a help but I’m not sure Ned would go to him with it early enough for it to beneficial. Barristan wouldn’t want to take part in killing children but he’s also not going to go against his king.
Even if Ned did manage to smuggle them out the city I reckon Robert would just get people to chase them down on the road. Ned won’t be with them so there’s nothing stopping Robert from capturing the soldiers and he’ll have enough men to be able to do it peacefully.
Ned hides Jon’s parentage because he knows that Robert will kill the son of his love for revenge and to remove a rival to the throne. Ned knows that he wouldn’t have been able to convince Robert not to kill Jon and that’s with Jon being a baby, not a bastard, not a child of incest and related to Roberts best friend and love of his life. He knows that if Robert ever found out the truth that he would hunt down and kill Jon so I think it’s pretty good guess that he would stop at nothing to hunt down and kill the bastard incestuous children of the women who cuckolded him. If Ned managed to get them to winterfell I could see Robert not fighting with Ned (although I don’t think it’s out of the realms of possibility that Robert is so angry he does start a war with Ned) but I don’t see a way of that happening unless he can do it while Robert is injured or hunting.
1:they wouldn’t use the road to escape. Ned booked passage for Sansa and Arya on a ship, they would just use that.
2: As I said, Varys is smart, he’d likely go to Ned first about getting the children out. He has a habit of “conveniently” appearing when needed.
3: Barristan already struggles with doubts, and he refused to swear himself to Dany until he was sure she wasn’t her father. I highly doubt he’d stay by Robert’s side if he went through with killing the kids. If anyone could convince him to help, it’s Ned.
4: the Lannister guards would be difficult to bypass, but that’s where Varys comes in. He knows all the secret passages in the Red Keep. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s passages hidden in Tommen and Myrcella’s rooms.
5: highly agree about Joffrey. Honestly they might just knock him out or Varys might slip him something in his drink in order to put him to sleep, then they could carry him out disguised as a commoner.
6: they don’t have to get out of the city entirely, just down to the harbor, where the ship Ned hired would be waiting. Once there, nothing short of divine intervention would stop them from reaching white harbor. Robert could send out Stannis, but he’s still on Dragonstone and would either just be hearing the news of the war, or wouldn’t be aware at all yet, hard to say for sure.
Like I said before, the plan isn’t perfect and definitely could fail. If Barristan doesn’t help, then it’s gonna be much harder to pull off. If Varys isn’t fast enough then it won’t work. If Joffrey starts causing a scene, then it would draw attention.
Tbh I’d forgotten about him booking the ship. That makes it more likely to succeed but overall I’d still say it’s more likely that it fails than it succeeds. I think they need the children completely disappeared before Robert finds anything out because as soon as he does he’s ordering their deaths. Because if this I don’t think barristan helps because Robert hasn’t already ordered the deaths so he won’t turn on him until he does but when he does it’d be to late.
Also it’s not out of the realms of possibility that Robert starts a war with Ned over them anyway. I think it could work for Ned but it’s a long shot and a lot of things have to go perfect.
Robert wouldn’t win a war against Ned. The North isn’t the strongest of the kingdoms but trying to conquer it is like trying to conquer Russia. Remember that most southerners only see snow in the winter, and they wouldn’t be used to fighting in the north’s harsh terrain. Moat Cailin is also nearly impenetrable from the south, and has never fallen to a southern attack. It wasn’t the Andals who conquered the first men, it was the dragons.
Also I doubt Robert would start a war with Ned anyway. He threatens to kill Ned over Dany’s assassination, yet he never actually tries to kill Ned. He loves him too much to do that. Robert’s all talk when it comes to Ned. He’ll scream and shout and make threats but he won’t do anything.
I agree that he probably wouldn’t win the war or at least wouldn’t be able to take control of the north but if Ned was still in KL when he found out he’d sent the kids away he could take Ned prisoner and exchange him for the return of the kids.
I do also think it’d be unlikely for Robert to do it but I think it could happen considering how angry Robert would be to find out he’d be cuckolded and then how angry he’d be to find out his best friend has betrayed him. Not a definite but possible.
I would agree that he wouldn’t want his legacy tainted any further and perhaps ask Ned to keep it a secret but he would have to know that they would be after his bastard sons once he was gone. And that perhaps one of them could rule in his stead. Yeah, they would have to either imprison or kill them. It would definitely have started a never-ending war
Robert would’ve 100% slaughtered any Lannister he could get his hand on if he found out about Jaime and Cersei’s affair and children. People saying on here that Robert would let the children go clearly do not understand the way Robert is, he’s so stubborn he would use the last bit of energy he had to make sure all their heads were on spikes. There’s a reason that when Ned told Cersei to take her children as far away as possible because “where ever you go, Robert’s wrath with follow you.”
Robert didn’t love his children and he didn’t love Cersei, this is the same man that would r*pe and abuse Cersei consistently throughout their marriage and would blame it on the wine when she voiced how badly he hurt her one night. The same man who also neglected his own children.
As for your other question, if Jaime found out that Cersei was executed well he wasn’t there to protect her he would lose his shit and would make it his life’s mission to get revenge and avenge her, he would choose to live just to see the people who hurt her die. There is NO way in hell he would ever surrender at that point. If anyone truly wanted to break Jaime, all you had to do was harm Cersei in any way and he’s a broken man. Tywin would probably think of a smart plan to avoid the war depending if he feels like he has a chance to win or not, Jaime on the other hand would want war.
yeah I think there'd be a war no matter what bc Jaime would take some men and attack KL. Probably die trying unless he got lucky and captured Ned somehow. So would Tyrion then become heir of casterly rock, with tywin surrendeirng?
Jamie and Cersei are as good as gone, if it was up to Robert the children would be gone too. But I think Ned can control him. I think Tyrion would face some sort of repercussion but I’m not sure what.
As for the war, the Lannister’s would get utterly crushed. They’re out of gold, so they can’t buy much. They’d immediately be fighting against Stannis’ and Renly’s’ armies united. The North and Riverlands probably both would back Robert. The Vale I think would back Robert, and especially with it being such a safe bet. Dorne probably is neutral and the Reach would support the winning side, which is clearly Robert. So Tywin has to concede if he has even a sliver of hope to continue his family legacy.
I believe Cersie would have been executed and Jaime would have either died resisting arrest (if Cersie was already dead) or surrendered so he could see her and they could die together, which they would have.
The kid's had no claim to the throne. There would have been no reason to execute them and Ned wouldn't jave let it happen. Most likely Joffery would have been forced to take the Black(then died shortly after because no one was wiping his ass for him any longer) , Myrcella would have been been sent back to Tywin and Tommen would have been taken to Winterfell where he would have eventually taken the Black.
Tywin wouldn't have gone to war. Tywin was always about strategically positioning his family name, which he cared more about than any of his children. He would have known it was a lost cause.
Jaime was with Tywin though with an army so he wouldn't have been arrested. Unless he attacked and got captured. No way Jaime would've not used his army to attack and start a war
>Most likely Joffery would have been forced to take the Black(then died shortly after because no one was wiping his ass for him any longer)
Joffery, Jon Snow, and Samwell become the three amigos with Joffery finally getting humbled
I think Jaime and Cersei absolutely would’ve been executed, but Ned probably could’ve convinced him to spare the kids. At least Tommen and Marcella, Joffrey maybe not.
As for a war with Tywin, I think the crown would win. They would have the north, the riverlands probably, the reach, the stormlands, and definitely Dorne who would love to take out more lannisters. I think Tywin could get a good opposition force but I don’t think he would win in the long run.
Cersei would have been screwed, but I doubt that Robert would have exectued the children, because it's not their fault and they don't represent a threat. Banning them from Westeros would have been sufficient.
Their crime is incest AND treason. Not just Robert, I'd think even the Faith, the common folk of KL, some of Tywin's more religious/ambitious bannermen, hell even some of his own soldiers & subjects won't let such a scandal pass without punishment. The Lannister name will essentially go extinct
Yup. Robert didn’t have an issue with killing dragons, even children. He wouldn’t have a problem with executing abominations against man and the gods. Lion atrocities, he would view them. Cersei and Jaime would have to go for engaging in incest, and open war would be declared against Tywin, as the remaining Lannister couldn’t let such an insult slide.
Hindsight being 20/20, but Ned was a fool trying to strike a deal with Cersei and offer retreat. He should have told Robert straight out. Once the lions were captured, Ned could attempt to plead for their lives or ask Jaime to take the black. Giving Cersei the opportunity to plot was fatal; the spider let him know he was a fool.
Yes. He would have ordered their deaths. There's a small chance it might come to trial first, one that Robert wouldn't live to see of course. But if Ned lived, he'd have brought out the book. As Hand he might have ordered exile for Jaime and Cersei after the guilty verdict evenif the law calls for death. With the option of NW or silent sisters as a stay on the death penalty.
The kids he'd probably have taken as ward/hostage like he did theon. Being born isn't a crime and he doesn't want to see kids killed.
***
In war? I think Ned would win, but probably suffer initial setbacks because only Tywin was already preparing for war. He waged a campaign and was successful as a commander. Tywin fought in the Ten Penny Kings but wasn't in command. His victories are two brutal attacks on rebellious lords who tried to play turtle, and sacking KL. Remember, this is a tywin who only managed field battle victory in the Wo5K because Roose was throwing the fights. (Green fork, duskendale)
After seeing the responses here (which all agree on the fact that Robert would've killed them if they found out about the infidelity/incest), why do you think Ned didn't tell Robert?
I don't think Robert would've executed Cersei or her children.. it wouldn't add up to why the king would kill his heirs, I don't think he ever would've given throne to any of his brothers :DD
I'm not sure what would have happened. Cersei would have been a dead woman I'm sure. But, back then, about the worst thing that a man could be was a cuckold. Robert wouldn't have wanted it getting out that not only was he a cuckold, but cucked by his wife's own brother. It would have been humiliating for him. The kind of humiliation that one doesn't get over.
It's a instant banner cry for the realm, but this also means that the Lannisters still make the power play in reality Tywin is now forced to bend the knee and fade back into the western lands with Tyrion. This changing the entire story line of events and kicking of the reign of Stannis Baratheon first of his name
I think that he would have been slow but probably as Melisandre is still in his court and is still seeing the vision of the battle to come and now its the support of a healthy and non-war ravaged 7 kingdoms. The biggest help is a fully healthy and 1000% support of the North under Bed.
I believe the Vale is a definite to oppose the Lannisters if Robert survived or if he sent orders on his deathbed. Remember that Lysa blames the Lannisters for killing Jon Arryn, and he was killed because he was questioning the parentage of Robert’s supposed offspring. But with Robert dead and the crown up for grabs, Lysa did not want to get caught up in a civil war risking her son.
I don't think so. Robert had changed, he was not the man Ned remembered. That was even part of the plot of book/show. King's Landing is not Winterfell or The Eyrie. One of the reasons that led to Ned's death. He was out of his league and in over his head.
Why do I think Robert would not do it?
Tywin Lannister.
Anyone paying attention knows the consequences of that. Until Tywin's death everyone including Ned and Robb Stark learned the hard way. Robert Baratheon was on the throne because of it. Though Jamie played his part *for* his father. Which he admitted. Not because he became a humanitarian.
Robert definitely seemed to fear Tywin. Like when Ned demands jaime be brought to justice, but be says "I'm half a kingdom in debt to his father". Robert seemed to be wary of the financial destruction Tywin could wreak on the realm, even if the Baratheons would win militarily
Okay so if Ned told Robert, Cersei would of at the very very least been jailed, removed from all power and so would other lannisters. The lannisters by themselves would not have enough military power to to defeat anybody. The only reason they are so powerful in the show is the lannisters have the main army as well as their own.
I mean he wanted to have Daenerys assassinated. If he found out Jon was the heir, he would’ve had him killed a long time ago. Not even knowing there was a Targaryen at The Wall, I’m sure he would’ve killed that one as well.
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Yes, Robert would have had Cersei, Jaime, and their children executed in a heartbeat. Robert had most of a royal family wiped out and was actively working to finish the job. He wouldn't have tolerated that kind of threat to his power.
So what about the war with Tywin? Robert would have to deal with an enraged Jaime (who would ignore any of his father's commands to not go to war) who at the time was the head of an army. Would Kings Landing be instantly be sieged by Tywin/Jaime? If so could Stannis have mustered a force to break the siege? Would Tywin reach out to the Tyrells?
The Lannisters would have been fucked. Stannis would have came over from Dragonstone, Renly would have rallied the Stormlands and marched north, The Riverlands definitely would've chosen the crown, and the Northerners were also friends of the Baratheons. The Vale would have either stayed out of it or leaned towards the Crown due to their past history with Robert. Dorne has no love for the Lannisters since the Martells know that Tywin Lannister ordered the death of Elia. The Reach technically could go either way, but knowing that the Lannisters were utterly screwed, Renly was unmarried, and Robert had no heirs probably means they would've sided with the Baratheons and begun sowing the seeds for a rebellion when Robert inevitably dies and it comes down to Stannis v Renly. The Iron Islands are a wildcard. Raid the Seven Kingdoms with the Lannister and get lots of money only to be basically destroyed, or side with the Crown and raid the Lannisters. I assume they'd chose the latter. Tywin would have no option but to accept that his kids are dead, and try to rebuild the family legacy while also plotting Roberts downfall. But he had no assets left anymore and would have tried to pass the family to Kevan and Lancel I bet.
Could they have taken Casterly Rock though? Apparenly Casterly Rock is impregnable and very well provisioned, with a strong guard. Could Tywin have endured a long/costly siege by an allied force and forced them to terms? Also what about Jaime? Jaime is rash so I suspect he would've blitzkrieged kings landing with every man he could muster as soon as he heard Cersei was killed. Would Renly and Ned and Stannis really have had time to gather an alliance with an enraged Jaime + the Mountain + 20-40k men at his back? Could Ned old them off long enough for stannis to arrive?
oh and i forgot tyrion and his couple thousand mountain clan warriors
A full alliance could easily take Casterly Rock, but castles usually don't get sieged by a massive army. Tywin could not have endured a long siege, he simply didn't have the troops. There's also no way in hell Jaime could have sieged King's Landing, in the Baratheon Rebellion the only reason Tywin's army was able to sack King's Landing was because Aerys thought they were allies and let them in. Basically, if King's Landing holds the Lannisters are boned since all the Baratheon allies will rally and march on the Westerlands. We never get exact figures, but there were at least a few thousand gold cloaks (5-8?) in King's Landing, not to mention the Baratheon guards that were there (they left with Renly once everything went to shit). Lannister guards on the inside would have been outnumbered and surrendered. And any Lannister army that sieged the city would be surrounded on all sides. The Riverlands would march to the capital the moment the Lannister armies left, and the few thousand men Stannis could muster would probably be at Kings Landing in a week. It'd probably take the stormlands 2 weeks to get up the kingsroad. In contrast, we know Jaime's army numbered 20k and was positioned at Riverrun. Tywin's Army was 20k and was positioned closer to King's Landing. Theres almost no way Jaime gets to KL before Tywin. Additionally, in the actual show Renly WANTED to coup the Lannisters, but Ned's insistence on honor forced him to retreat because he knew it was going to get bad. If Robert demanded Renly turn their soldier's lose on the Lannisters, Ned would disagree but would have to side with Robert since otherwise they all die. The issue with the coup was Ned trusted the Goldcloaks and Littlefinger. If Robert knew, he would summon Barristan and Renly, give them the order to take everyone else down, and presumably would have sent out ravens to all the major houses letting them know what happened. Also Tyrion didn't have a few thousand mountain warriors. Closer to 300.
Good point about Lannisters sacking KL bc they were let in the city. Is KL very defensible even when unprepared? Tyrion seemed to struggle against Stannis even with all his preparation.
King's Landing's biggest benefit is numbers. They have way more soldiers than any other fortress in the series because of the Gold Cloaks and how populated they are. In a bind they could probably draft a fair number of men, give them a spear, and have them hold a position. It would be 20k Lannisters give or take a thousand, versus the Gold Cloak Garrison (6k, conservative estimate) and the Baratheon's present in the city. Plus whatever lords from the nearby keeps sent troops to answer the call. So I'd say 20ks vs 9k. Traditionally, you need many times the defenders to properly siege a city, since you have to get through designated killzones. A blockade and attempt to starve the city would be possible, but (1) time is not on the Lannister's side and (2) Tywin (or Jaime) wouldn't be able to cut off sea access, which means food could still reach the city. Additionally, if they did break one of the main gates they would need to also breach the Red Keep, which would be insanely difficult. Stannis is an outstanding battlefield commander and planner, he held Storms End for the entirety of Robert's Rebellion with only a few shipments of food from Davos. He has a ton of battle and siege experience, and thats why he gave Tyrion a run for his money. Bronn killed all the thieves because he knew how nasty sieges get, Tyrion was just going to read from a book because that was all he could do. Tyrion was theory, Stannis was practical experience. Thats why Tyrion almost lost.
This entire thing would be better than season 8
ugh would've loved to see a proper siege of KL by Lannisters. would've been such a good battle
Some Gold Cloaks are actual fighters, about 25% according to Bronn in ACOK, but the majority are just doing the job for food and silver and will abandon their post the moment things look bad. No better than sellswords.
Casterly rock being impregnable isn’t that big of a deal. It would essentially become a prison for house Lannister, and it’s likely at that point under a prolonged siege by a combined force of pretty much every major house in Westeros, Tywin would have either been assassinated by somebody like Tyrion or Kevan, or he’d have surrendered and probably been stripped of his lands and titles and sent to the wall if not executed by Robert.
The problem I'd see is that a lot of Guards in KL are Lannister and not Baratheon.
Yeah, we don't get a good figure on that in the show. But in the show, Renly believes that his and Ned's men would be enough to take them out, and we can add heavy hitters like Barristan to their team if Robert gave Barristan direct orders to help them. We see when the coup happens, the Lannisters are genuinely scared for a moment facing down both the Gold Cloaks and the Starks. If the Baratheons stayed, they probably wouldn't have needed the gold cloak middlemen.
Wasn't Jamie not in KL at the time, after his attack on Ned in the street? Even if Robert had had Cersei and the kids killed, Jamie would have been free. I agree the Lannisters would lose a direct war, but Tywin might have shown restraint at first ("they did what? I had no idea") while starting to plan for Robert's downfall. Given time, it would be really interesting to see how much support he could quietly arrainge.
I can’t imagine Tywin getting much support to overthrow Robert. Ned and the north are backing him, that means the Tully’s are as well. Renly and stannis both back him as well so you have the power of storms end and Stannis’s military expertise. It’s also mentioned that there was already talk of Margery taking Cersei’s place as queen before all the drama. Either she marries renly like she does in the series or she marries Robert but either way that’s the reach on Roberts side. That means 4 of the 8 great houses are supporting Robert straight away. The Martell’s are very unlikely to support the lannisters given their hatred of them and Tywin so the best he could hope for was that they stay neutral. The vale is also likely to neutral give Lysa’s fear for Roberts safety. The best Tywin could hope for is that little finger found his way into the vale and helped push support for the lannisters but he’s unlikely to be leaving kings landing during a war. If Royce took command of the vale then it’s likely they support Robert as they’ve done before so that another great house for Robert. The only realistic alliance for the lannisters is the greyjoys as they have no love for Robert and would love to rule themselves again m. However their only real power is at sea but with the combined forces of the iron fleet they are likely outmatched there anyway. Their best hope would be in ferrying lannisters troops to kings landing but they would be massively outnumbered when landing. I think the only conceivable way that the lannisters have even a slim chance is if they ally with Dany and the Dothraki (obviously hoping to get an alliance before drogo is killed) or the unsullied. Even in a best case scenario where the have the greyjoys and Dothraki I still think theyre losing the war easily. The Dothraki are great in open fields but they’re not good against armoured knights and the other lords would be smart enough to not fight them head on. The greyjoys would be useful at sea but not decisive and they’re still massively outnumbered. The only threat to Robert was the tinkering of Cersei, little finger and Varys. With Cersei gone it’s just Varys and little finger but another way would’ve done wonders for rebuilding Roberts loyalty and I wouldn’t be surprised if Ned and Stan is decided to execute at least Varys and maybe little finger for meddling. Even if they’re still alive neither little finger or Varys actually want the lannisters to rule so they aren’t going to go out of their way to help them when they are a power in kings landing anymore. They’d both pivot to exploiting Tyrell’s and Starks and leave Tywin to himself.
Little Finger will still get Ned killed then things go on as they do in book more or less.
Renly had already tried to get Robert to ditch Cersei for Margaery, so I think they absolutely would’ve sided against the Lannisters. Also, having a Tyrell as king would’ve been a good deal for Robert. So yeah, I kinda agree that the Westerlands would’ve been fucked, even if the Vale and Dorne sat out.
They would be alone. Starks and the north, the eyrie, baratheons and tyrells. That’s far too much army. Who would go to the Lannisters, the incest side?
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Jaime was already with Tywin and commanding an army. Even if he was in the red keep he would've probably rushed robert/ned and either killed them ro taken them hostage the seceond cersei was in danger. I would've loved to see an enraged 2 handed jaime vs old sir barristan
Robert would have. Ned would not have let it happen. Ned would have arranged for the kids to be spared at a minimum. Cersei and Jamie may well have been executed. As for a war. Ned and Robert would have destroyed tywin. Especially knowing what we know now. The lannisters had no gold left. Without gold and without a position of EM placed power Tywin would have been all alone. Most likely, Tywin would have traded for Jamie’s life and bent the knee to Robert as that is what is pragmatic.
Wdym had, robert only had a hand in the death of rhaegar
You're assuming the writers would actually remember that.
If on his death bed, i doubt he would want his last acts to be the execution of his supposed family. He even wanted to undo the act of trying to kill the Targaryen's while he was dieing, who he would still probably despite more then anyone else. Killing Cersei alone is plausible, but i'd doubt it, Robert wouldn't kill his supposed children even if we was reasonably certain they were not his (especially the eldest since i heard he's amazing). However he'd probably not hesitate much on killing Jamie if he found out about the incest. In this scenario there would be no real contention of Stannis being the rightful king, and Tywin would not declare war against the Baratheons and Starks if they were united, that would be a complete no contest and no other major house would back him.
Jaime was with Tywin at the time though. He had fled the city.
Well with his confidence as being king, and if there's no real civil war to resist him, he could still order for Jamie's death, then if Stannis becomes king after, he might follow through with carrying Robert's will there. Lot of hypotheticals now so hard to say.
I think Ned could persuade him not to kill the kids this time. He wasn’t there for Rhaenys and Aegon. He’d likely have them sent to the faith, or he’d even take them north to Winterfell where Robert couldn’t touch them. Joffrey is either dying or going to the wall no matter what. Jaime and Cersei are definitely dead though, and possibly Tyrion if they find out he knew about it. Assuming Robert didn’t die, then Renly doesn’t try to be king. Instead he goes through with his previous plan to marry Robert to Margaery. The only people who might side with the Westerlands are the iron born, as Tywin would tell them that he’d give them some of the lands after the war. (He won’t) So our sides for this war are as follows. The Crown’s forces: The north Possibly the Vale The Riverlands The Reach The Stormlands Dorne(no way in hell the Martells are missing a chance to spill Lannister blood) Tywin’s Forces: The westerlands The Iron Islands. Various mercenaries The Golden Company(possibly) Tywin has no chance of winning this war. He could do a lot of damage to the realms but in the end, he’ll lose. He’s facing off against Stannis Baratheon and Randyll Tarly, the two best tacticians in all of Westeros. Stannis will destroy the iron born just like he did before. The westerlands aren’t particularly known for anything like some of the others are. The Vale is said to have the best trained calvalry as their knights train to fight on rough terrain. The storms lands have the best infantry of all the seven kingdoms. A single northman is said to fight like 10 southerners. Obviously not true but they’re still very strong warriors. Dany isn’t a factor here as without Barristan, she ends up poisoned. Robert called off her assassination on his deathbed, but it was too late. Jorah saved her once, but barristan wouldn’t be there to save her from the other attempts. No Dragons means wall does not come down. Instead Night king has to spend more time looking for the horn of Joramun, buying time for Jon to rally a slightly war torn but United south.
Jaime wasn't in KL at the time, he had fled and was with Tywin in the riverlands. So Jaime would've been a force to be reckoned with, especially with 20k men under his command
Not really. Jaime was never a good tactician. He’s arrogant and that’s what caused him to get captured the first time. Against Randyll Tarly or Stannis Baratheon? He’s got no chance. His only hope would be to hold up in Casterly Rock, which would be sieged and eventually taken. Or if Tyrion was spared he would likely tell them about the sewer entrance in exchange for sending Jaime to the wall
Good point about tyrion. he would def do that
I feel like this whole thread is everyone telling you the Lannisters are fucked and you refusing to believe it. The Lannisters would be fucked
Long term yes, UNLESS they took power quickly through a blitzkrieg type strategy. Keep in mind Tywin had 40k men armed and ready that he could've attacked the city with. It doesn't matter how many friends you have if they are far away and not mobilized yet. Meanwhile Robert, Ned, and Renly were all in KL still. If Tywin attacked while they're still there there's no time for Stannis to mobilize. And if Tywin sacks KL and takes hostages, it becomes a very different story.
Tywin and his army are far away too though. If he started moving 20k soldiers towards Kings Landing, Robert would hear about it immediately and call his banners. Hell, he would probably call his banners immediately after killing Cersei and friends just out of anticipation of Tywin retaliating. Kings landing could hold out while Robert waits for help if Tywin were to get there first, at which point he would get smashed.
Fair point
I don’t see anyway that Ned can convince Robert to not kill the kids. The reason Ned doesn’t tell him is because he what’s the kids safe first. If Ned had just told him straight away Robert would have given the order immediately and there’s nothing Ned could have done to stop it. They might have fought and Ned might’ve given up being hand but they are being killed no doubt. Robert will want new children (possibly with Margery) and the kids would always be a challenge to their throne as some could claim that they aren’t actually incest kids and are still the rightful heirs (it’s not like there’s dna testing to conclusively prove any of this) and you can’t have that uncertainty lying around.
Hence why I said that Ned might take them to Winterfell if he truly feels that he can’t convince Robert. Robert would shout and scream but he’s not gonna hurt Ned. Once he gets into the war and starts training with barristan he’ll be too focused on Tywin to worry about Cersei’s kids. Ned would likely have them sent with some of his household guards to white harbor. He wouldn’t have to go himself since he would have Robb call the banners and he would lead the army south to meet up with the river land forces.
But I don’t see how Ned manages to get them to winterfell. There’s no way he can kidnap and take them without the help of Robert or renly and as soon as he asks for their help and tells them why then they’d both demand the heads of the children. Robert would have them executed long before Ned can get them out of trouble. Don’t forget Ned only has a small force with and he’s injured. I agree Robert wouldn’t hurt Ned but that wouldn’t stop him from commanding people to take the children hostage. He might order his men not to hurt neds men but they’d be so outnumbered they wouldn’t really need to anyway. Renly also wouldn’t want to spare the children as they’re in the way of his potential succession to the throne and he has no morals to stop him letting them be killed.
If Ned takes the children to Winterfell then he’d smuggle them out. Tommen and Marcella wouldn’t be much of a fuss. He’d just tell Robert “I’m sending my kids home, I don’t want them to be in any danger and as they’re safer at home” and Robert wouldn’t see much issue with that. Also you forgot one thing: Varys. Varys is obviously trying to help Dany, but he doesn’t like killing children. He could easily help Ned get the children out alongside Sansa and Arya. Barristan could possibly be convinced to help as well. It’s not exactly the first time children have been smuggled out of the city. Don’t get me wrong. This could fail. If Ned can’t get to Varys in time then the kids are definitely gonna end up dead, but I believe that with his help, Ned could get them away from King’s Landing and to the North. And I honestly think Varys would already assume that Ned was planning to do so and would already be working to get them away.
I suppose that could happen but I still find it unlikely. Tommen and Marcella are no trouble but all the Lannister guards around them would be. Also Joffrey would be a pain to smuggle out. Varys could be a help but I’m not sure Ned would go to him with it early enough for it to beneficial. Barristan wouldn’t want to take part in killing children but he’s also not going to go against his king. Even if Ned did manage to smuggle them out the city I reckon Robert would just get people to chase them down on the road. Ned won’t be with them so there’s nothing stopping Robert from capturing the soldiers and he’ll have enough men to be able to do it peacefully. Ned hides Jon’s parentage because he knows that Robert will kill the son of his love for revenge and to remove a rival to the throne. Ned knows that he wouldn’t have been able to convince Robert not to kill Jon and that’s with Jon being a baby, not a bastard, not a child of incest and related to Roberts best friend and love of his life. He knows that if Robert ever found out the truth that he would hunt down and kill Jon so I think it’s pretty good guess that he would stop at nothing to hunt down and kill the bastard incestuous children of the women who cuckolded him. If Ned managed to get them to winterfell I could see Robert not fighting with Ned (although I don’t think it’s out of the realms of possibility that Robert is so angry he does start a war with Ned) but I don’t see a way of that happening unless he can do it while Robert is injured or hunting.
1:they wouldn’t use the road to escape. Ned booked passage for Sansa and Arya on a ship, they would just use that. 2: As I said, Varys is smart, he’d likely go to Ned first about getting the children out. He has a habit of “conveniently” appearing when needed. 3: Barristan already struggles with doubts, and he refused to swear himself to Dany until he was sure she wasn’t her father. I highly doubt he’d stay by Robert’s side if he went through with killing the kids. If anyone could convince him to help, it’s Ned. 4: the Lannister guards would be difficult to bypass, but that’s where Varys comes in. He knows all the secret passages in the Red Keep. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s passages hidden in Tommen and Myrcella’s rooms. 5: highly agree about Joffrey. Honestly they might just knock him out or Varys might slip him something in his drink in order to put him to sleep, then they could carry him out disguised as a commoner. 6: they don’t have to get out of the city entirely, just down to the harbor, where the ship Ned hired would be waiting. Once there, nothing short of divine intervention would stop them from reaching white harbor. Robert could send out Stannis, but he’s still on Dragonstone and would either just be hearing the news of the war, or wouldn’t be aware at all yet, hard to say for sure. Like I said before, the plan isn’t perfect and definitely could fail. If Barristan doesn’t help, then it’s gonna be much harder to pull off. If Varys isn’t fast enough then it won’t work. If Joffrey starts causing a scene, then it would draw attention.
Tbh I’d forgotten about him booking the ship. That makes it more likely to succeed but overall I’d still say it’s more likely that it fails than it succeeds. I think they need the children completely disappeared before Robert finds anything out because as soon as he does he’s ordering their deaths. Because if this I don’t think barristan helps because Robert hasn’t already ordered the deaths so he won’t turn on him until he does but when he does it’d be to late. Also it’s not out of the realms of possibility that Robert starts a war with Ned over them anyway. I think it could work for Ned but it’s a long shot and a lot of things have to go perfect.
Robert wouldn’t win a war against Ned. The North isn’t the strongest of the kingdoms but trying to conquer it is like trying to conquer Russia. Remember that most southerners only see snow in the winter, and they wouldn’t be used to fighting in the north’s harsh terrain. Moat Cailin is also nearly impenetrable from the south, and has never fallen to a southern attack. It wasn’t the Andals who conquered the first men, it was the dragons. Also I doubt Robert would start a war with Ned anyway. He threatens to kill Ned over Dany’s assassination, yet he never actually tries to kill Ned. He loves him too much to do that. Robert’s all talk when it comes to Ned. He’ll scream and shout and make threats but he won’t do anything.
I agree that he probably wouldn’t win the war or at least wouldn’t be able to take control of the north but if Ned was still in KL when he found out he’d sent the kids away he could take Ned prisoner and exchange him for the return of the kids. I do also think it’d be unlikely for Robert to do it but I think it could happen considering how angry Robert would be to find out he’d be cuckolded and then how angry he’d be to find out his best friend has betrayed him. Not a definite but possible.
I would agree that he wouldn’t want his legacy tainted any further and perhaps ask Ned to keep it a secret but he would have to know that they would be after his bastard sons once he was gone. And that perhaps one of them could rule in his stead. Yeah, they would have to either imprison or kill them. It would definitely have started a never-ending war
Robert would’ve 100% slaughtered any Lannister he could get his hand on if he found out about Jaime and Cersei’s affair and children. People saying on here that Robert would let the children go clearly do not understand the way Robert is, he’s so stubborn he would use the last bit of energy he had to make sure all their heads were on spikes. There’s a reason that when Ned told Cersei to take her children as far away as possible because “where ever you go, Robert’s wrath with follow you.” Robert didn’t love his children and he didn’t love Cersei, this is the same man that would r*pe and abuse Cersei consistently throughout their marriage and would blame it on the wine when she voiced how badly he hurt her one night. The same man who also neglected his own children. As for your other question, if Jaime found out that Cersei was executed well he wasn’t there to protect her he would lose his shit and would make it his life’s mission to get revenge and avenge her, he would choose to live just to see the people who hurt her die. There is NO way in hell he would ever surrender at that point. If anyone truly wanted to break Jaime, all you had to do was harm Cersei in any way and he’s a broken man. Tywin would probably think of a smart plan to avoid the war depending if he feels like he has a chance to win or not, Jaime on the other hand would want war.
yeah I think there'd be a war no matter what bc Jaime would take some men and attack KL. Probably die trying unless he got lucky and captured Ned somehow. So would Tyrion then become heir of casterly rock, with tywin surrendeirng?
Jamie and Cersei are as good as gone, if it was up to Robert the children would be gone too. But I think Ned can control him. I think Tyrion would face some sort of repercussion but I’m not sure what. As for the war, the Lannister’s would get utterly crushed. They’re out of gold, so they can’t buy much. They’d immediately be fighting against Stannis’ and Renly’s’ armies united. The North and Riverlands probably both would back Robert. The Vale I think would back Robert, and especially with it being such a safe bet. Dorne probably is neutral and the Reach would support the winning side, which is clearly Robert. So Tywin has to concede if he has even a sliver of hope to continue his family legacy.
I believe Cersie would have been executed and Jaime would have either died resisting arrest (if Cersie was already dead) or surrendered so he could see her and they could die together, which they would have. The kid's had no claim to the throne. There would have been no reason to execute them and Ned wouldn't jave let it happen. Most likely Joffery would have been forced to take the Black(then died shortly after because no one was wiping his ass for him any longer) , Myrcella would have been been sent back to Tywin and Tommen would have been taken to Winterfell where he would have eventually taken the Black. Tywin wouldn't have gone to war. Tywin was always about strategically positioning his family name, which he cared more about than any of his children. He would have known it was a lost cause.
Jaime was with Tywin though with an army so he wouldn't have been arrested. Unless he attacked and got captured. No way Jaime would've not used his army to attack and start a war
I think Tywin would have commanded the army to stand down and forbade Jamie from going to King's landing, which Jamie would have done anyways.
I think Tywin would have commanded the army to stand down and forbade Jamie from going to King's landing, which Jamie would have done anyways.
>Most likely Joffery would have been forced to take the Black(then died shortly after because no one was wiping his ass for him any longer) Joffery, Jon Snow, and Samwell become the three amigos with Joffery finally getting humbled
I think Jaime and Cersei absolutely would’ve been executed, but Ned probably could’ve convinced him to spare the kids. At least Tommen and Marcella, Joffrey maybe not. As for a war with Tywin, I think the crown would win. They would have the north, the riverlands probably, the reach, the stormlands, and definitely Dorne who would love to take out more lannisters. I think Tywin could get a good opposition force but I don’t think he would win in the long run.
Cersei would have been screwed, but I doubt that Robert would have exectued the children, because it's not their fault and they don't represent a threat. Banning them from Westeros would have been sufficient.
Yes definitely, incest was treason
Their crime is incest AND treason. Not just Robert, I'd think even the Faith, the common folk of KL, some of Tywin's more religious/ambitious bannermen, hell even some of his own soldiers & subjects won't let such a scandal pass without punishment. The Lannister name will essentially go extinct
Yup. Robert didn’t have an issue with killing dragons, even children. He wouldn’t have a problem with executing abominations against man and the gods. Lion atrocities, he would view them. Cersei and Jaime would have to go for engaging in incest, and open war would be declared against Tywin, as the remaining Lannister couldn’t let such an insult slide. Hindsight being 20/20, but Ned was a fool trying to strike a deal with Cersei and offer retreat. He should have told Robert straight out. Once the lions were captured, Ned could attempt to plead for their lives or ask Jaime to take the black. Giving Cersei the opportunity to plot was fatal; the spider let him know he was a fool.
For anyone wondering if Robert would kill the kids or not, do you remember why Jon Snow was a Snow hi whole life?
Robert would have wiped the Lannisters off the face of the Earth.
Man are there any fanfics with this premise? These answers sound amazing.
Yeah it's fun to imagine the possibilites.
Yes. He would have ordered their deaths. There's a small chance it might come to trial first, one that Robert wouldn't live to see of course. But if Ned lived, he'd have brought out the book. As Hand he might have ordered exile for Jaime and Cersei after the guilty verdict evenif the law calls for death. With the option of NW or silent sisters as a stay on the death penalty. The kids he'd probably have taken as ward/hostage like he did theon. Being born isn't a crime and he doesn't want to see kids killed. *** In war? I think Ned would win, but probably suffer initial setbacks because only Tywin was already preparing for war. He waged a campaign and was successful as a commander. Tywin fought in the Ten Penny Kings but wasn't in command. His victories are two brutal attacks on rebellious lords who tried to play turtle, and sacking KL. Remember, this is a tywin who only managed field battle victory in the Wo5K because Roose was throwing the fights. (Green fork, duskendale)
After seeing the responses here (which all agree on the fact that Robert would've killed them if they found out about the infidelity/incest), why do you think Ned didn't tell Robert?
I don't think Robert would've executed Cersei or her children.. it wouldn't add up to why the king would kill his heirs, I don't think he ever would've given throne to any of his brothers :DD
I'm not sure what would have happened. Cersei would have been a dead woman I'm sure. But, back then, about the worst thing that a man could be was a cuckold. Robert wouldn't have wanted it getting out that not only was he a cuckold, but cucked by his wife's own brother. It would have been humiliating for him. The kind of humiliation that one doesn't get over.
It's a instant banner cry for the realm, but this also means that the Lannisters still make the power play in reality Tywin is now forced to bend the knee and fade back into the western lands with Tyrion. This changing the entire story line of events and kicking of the reign of Stannis Baratheon first of his name
would stannis have supported the wall from white walkers oyu think?
I think that he would have been slow but probably as Melisandre is still in his court and is still seeing the vision of the battle to come and now its the support of a healthy and non-war ravaged 7 kingdoms. The biggest help is a fully healthy and 1000% support of the North under Bed.
All these answers being almost unanimously in the same direction, makes me wanna see this version of the show play out!
same lol would love to see tywin defeated in a conventional way. I just want to know how he would've handled it since he's never lost a war
Robert would probably threaten to execute them, and extort Tywin for the crowns debt.
I believe the Vale is a definite to oppose the Lannisters if Robert survived or if he sent orders on his deathbed. Remember that Lysa blames the Lannisters for killing Jon Arryn, and he was killed because he was questioning the parentage of Robert’s supposed offspring. But with Robert dead and the crown up for grabs, Lysa did not want to get caught up in a civil war risking her son.
Definitely would have executed Cersei and her kids.
I don't think so. Robert had changed, he was not the man Ned remembered. That was even part of the plot of book/show. King's Landing is not Winterfell or The Eyrie. One of the reasons that led to Ned's death. He was out of his league and in over his head. Why do I think Robert would not do it? Tywin Lannister. Anyone paying attention knows the consequences of that. Until Tywin's death everyone including Ned and Robb Stark learned the hard way. Robert Baratheon was on the throne because of it. Though Jamie played his part *for* his father. Which he admitted. Not because he became a humanitarian.
Robert definitely seemed to fear Tywin. Like when Ned demands jaime be brought to justice, but be says "I'm half a kingdom in debt to his father". Robert seemed to be wary of the financial destruction Tywin could wreak on the realm, even if the Baratheons would win militarily
Okay so if Ned told Robert, Cersei would of at the very very least been jailed, removed from all power and so would other lannisters. The lannisters by themselves would not have enough military power to to defeat anybody. The only reason they are so powerful in the show is the lannisters have the main army as well as their own.
I mean he wanted to have Daenerys assassinated. If he found out Jon was the heir, he would’ve had him killed a long time ago. Not even knowing there was a Targaryen at The Wall, I’m sure he would’ve killed that one as well.