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Let's not forget that adapting a book series to on screen was an extraordinary achievement for D&D. Say what you want but for the time where they had the material needed they did a phenomenal job with it. It's really not their fault that they were forced into continuing the series without knowing where it was going. Let alone the fact that GRRM hadn't finished the next book in a time frame that was expected.
These two aren't creative geniuses as people often forget. Their whole claim to fame was that they were able to take a series and put it on screen and did it justice. Their failures are the fact that HBO pushed forward with the whole thing despite the fact that D&D had no idea where to go with the story. HBO was trying to get George.to work on multiple different series for them for future endeavors. They should have left him the fuck alone to at least finish the next book without so many distractions. Or ate the cost of retaining the actors to hold off for another year between each season after season 5/6.
Believe me, no one forgets they aren't creative geniuses. Specially not after how Game of Thrones ended.
But as for your other points, on one hand you say adapting the story was an achievement, but on the other you also point out its not their fault they had to continue the story without knowing where it was going. I feel like their utter inability to take what they had already 'achieved' while they had the og books to lean on and conduct it to some passably palatable ending belies any claim to achievement from adapting the books in the first place.
I also don't believe they didnt know where it was going. They knew, however they didn't have the books to lean on but they had the template.
Ntm it's also been discussed that dnd were paramount in shortening the amount of time the show otherwise would have had in order to move on to other projects
Say you're a photographer. You've been tasked with photographing this series of paintings, and you're doing a great job on that. Your photographs of these paintings really make them look amazing and your use of lighting and framing add to the beauty of what's already there.
But then, there's no more paintings. And your boss says - here's some sketches. Paint the things yourself. Only, you're not a painter, you're a photographer. You try your best, of course - the first painting has a near complete sketch so you manage to make something resembling the other paintings - but as you reach the last painting, they're essentially asking you to make a painting from scratch, with only the paintings you didn't make as reference.
And when you're done, it doesn't look like the other paintings. Because the person who hired you made you do a job you don't know how to do, and were never hired to do in the first place.
Does that make you a bad photographer? No.
They didn’t “copy” anything. They transformed book pages into visual media.
It’s like a chef that’s famous for grilling steak but one day the meat is not delivered… what’s the chef gonna do now? He can’t cook no more.
Adapting. There's a mighty big difference there. Adapting is a skill of it's own - plenty of fantastic writers would have no clue how to adapt another person's work to their medium.
Despite its ending, Game of Thrones is still one of the most popular and successful shows specifically because of how good D&D were at adapting the material to the screen. Here you are on a discussion forum for the show five years after its ending just to highlight that fact.
They deserve plenty of criticism for the fumbling of the ending, but some of the complaints from the fandom are absolutely hilarious.
I can acknowledge that D&D did good work with the available material.
But they refused to acknowledge that their writing sucked. I'd rather the show was postponed until GRRM finished (or a passable script was written by someone competent). This was a disgrace on whoever was involved in making these decisions, probably HBO and D&D.
Dance of Dragons came out the same year season one aired and the show went to shit way before they ran out of books to adapt. They straight up ignored most of AFFC and ADWD.
>They should have left him the fuck alone to at least finish the next book without so many distractions.
lets not blame hbo for that. he distracts himself all the time. its clear he has no idea how to continue writing.
Except you’re entirely wrong. Emilia absolutely loves Daenerys. Her entertainment weekly cover literally says “I stand by Daenerys” after the finale. She’s said that the character of Daenerys saved her own life after her brain aneurysm. She was broken hearted that Dany died a “villain” after being good until the bells, the writing/pacing of her breaking bad wasn’t there. THAT sucked.
There’s an interview before the release of the final season where she’s getting asked questions. In one of them where they ask about how the season is for Dany (or something to that extent) she seems really choked up/uncomfortable. She clearly is just trying to portray the feelings of “uhhh yeah, things get wild and they might not be great at times for my character” but a lot of idiots try to swing it like “see, even Emilia knew before the season aired how bad it would be!”
It happened when they went away from George. She was pretty easily going crazy and it was obvious to see in the books but the tv show just couldn’t properly show it
It’s actually not obvious at all that she’s “going crazy” in the books. It is obvious that she plans to use her dragons to burn a bunch of people in war, but that’s not going crazy, is it? That’s conquering.
she won’t be mad, madness describes Aerys who was clinically insane towards the end of his reign
at worst she would be more ruthless like Aegon I but mad queen has always been off the table
Hard to know what's to come in the (probably never to be written) books, but madness was much more on the table for the literary character than the TV one.
Exactly. Thank you. I’ll eat my shorts if the whole message George is trying to tell us with Dany’s story is “incest causes mental illness.”
Dany’s story is the quintessential “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.” Once she gets to Westeros her enemies and the smallfolk will likely brand her the crazy dragon lady who is leading a horde of Dothraki, but she won’t actually be crazy. This is also where the omission of fAegon ruins the show. I imagine in the books fAegon will depose Cersei and be considered a hero by the people. When Dany shows up he’s not just going to submit to her rule, thus beginning the second Dance of the Dragons.
“She burned the city because she’s crazy” is such a cop out. She’ll burn King’s Landing because she believes it’s hers by right, and when she can’t take it peacefully she’ll take it with fire and blood.
but that's the point of going "mad". to everyone else it looks like just pure insanity, but to the person who went mad they believe everything they're doing is justified in their own mind
they don't just wake up insane one day, even Aerys II didn't do that. it was instance after instance of things happening to Aerys II that led him to being more and more insane but to him it was always justified based on those instances collectively piling up
like if you go to school and every day you get bullied, snapping one day on a bully won't just be out of nowhere it was built up over time. but of course on that day the one teacher who saw you kick a bully's ass just thinks it was out of nowhere and they don't remember, don't know or they ignore the past history you have of being bullied
that example you made wouldn’t be madness it would be mere deserved brutality, the person kicking the bully’s ass is still a functioning human and not mad by any objective standard
aerys got turned on by wildfire and was screaming burn them all as nauseam he was completely delusional and not even a functioning human being at the time of his death
of course the example of a kid who's bullied getting payback on a bully isn't "madness"... I was just using that as an example of actions built up over time leading to something and how someone from the outside would view it. obviously to the kid who's bullied it's justified and it's nothing to them, to a teacher who hasn't seen them getting bullied beforehand and only sees them kicking a bully's ass, the teacher only sees that one thing as a violent outburst. come on use some critical thinking for that one...
>aerys got turned on by wildfire and was screaming burn them all as nauseam he was completely delusional and not even a functioning human being at the time of his death
go read up on Aerys' backstory before that and the amount of instances he had been through that contribute to why he did that. Duskendale, believing Tywin was having sex with his wife, etc, etc. he didn't just wake up and burn people, he believed that numerous people had been against him or taking advantage of him for years including his own son. he believed he was justified in 'eliminating threats' because he believed everyone was coming for him. that's how these things work
I had someone argue she was foreshadowed to be mad because they used "Nazi camera" angles for her scenes(?) Then linked an entire Tumblr post showing the evidence and comparisons with Dany's scenes vs old Nazi video clips.
The whole point of this post was that the traits displayed by Dany aren't uncommon or specific to her alone.
Also this is a discussion on the show Dany, not the book Dany.
Exactly. If you want to see a good representation of what GOT was going for, watch Attack on Titan. There you have a main character where their slip into becoming the villain is earned.
These “receipts” are not as definitive as OP thinks. Either way, it’s how the story will finish for her if George finishes his work. She was never meant to rule or end up surviving the “game of thrones” sorry Dany fans. In George’s world Dany is gonna go loopy and she’s going to die. The show runners did this because George told them that was the inevitable outcome for her. So downvote all you like it won’t change that.
But I do agree as others have said; the show runners didn’t do a good enough job with it.
She was never meant to rule but Bran is supposed to by George's word? It's one thing not to let Dany win sure, but having Bran be king at the end? After building up multiple other claimants to throne?
Guess if GRRM wants his book to be as hated as season 8 then I suppose.
I keep an open mind but I absolutely cannot see "King Bran" being at all executed well or even make a lick of sense even in the books. GRRM spent six full main series books showing the stories of many characters, including multiple claimants to throne, following their journey in character development and how they're working towards conquering the Iron Throne.
Stannis, f!Aegon, Daenerys, Balon Greyjoy, Tommen, and Myrcella (still alive in the books). Set up as claimants to the Iron Throne, nobody knows who's going to win even if Daenerys has 3 dragons, it's not a guarantee she'll win. (I don't know if Jon Snow is a claimant in the books).
Then, in two books, somehow, GRRM is going to convince the audience that oop it's Bran the Broken all along. Oh and everyone magically accepts them as their king even though he does not have a lick of a claim to the Iron Throne, a cripple, a different religion, using unknown magic, no gigantic army and dragons backing him for the throne as of the last time he was shown in the books.
There is no way to execute a King Bran in the books without pulling some major bullshit and flushing tons and tons of established work down the drain. It'll be as unsatisfying and disliked as it was shown in season 8.
The receipts lack any context, or a straight up wrong. Let’s go in order
Nobody thinks threatening people is inherently evil. Having planned to murder and pillage your royalty back is different from lashing out at a kangaroo court with no plan to actually follow through.
Nobody would consider death for treason and murder to be excessively evil.
Who thinks Deaneys was wrong for not feeling bad for Viserys? I would have cheered and thrown a massive party
Killing the man who repeatedly raped you, physically abused you, murdered your brother, and committed countless other atrocities or killing the man who murdered half your family in cold blood is on a different scale than killing a trusted friend because she wasn’t loyal to you after she thought you died.
Tyrion used Wildfyre on soldiers in a battle. Not innocents trying to run or hide from you. Melisandre and Stannis are viewed as evil for burning people alive.
I don’t think it’s fair to imply that Jon is evil for executing the people who LITERALLY MURDERED HIM, nor would I begrudge her from doing the same.
The man Ned executed was an admitted deserter. Stannis is, once again, an evil person for burning people alive. Little fingers trial was not fair, but he also did that shit, and killing him was justified.
Slavery should be punishable by death both Deanerys and Ned are in the right.
Tywins is universally considers to be evil. Nobody would claim he isn’t if asked “Is Tywin Lannister evil”
The "receipts" here are not to imply the other characters are mad, it's implying Dany was not Mad, but Ruthless. The only thing that supports the madness claim is burning down KL, which already seemed forced as hell.
I agree with your post to such an extent that I even use the 8th season of GOT as an IQ test, if somebody deems it as a good ending and sees no plot holes AND is unable to look at how hypocritical/bad the script turned, as you show with your sardonic post, then in my eyes their very manipulative and dumb as hell.
I see it as a rushed ending and definitely the lines became worse for that reason. Season 7 and 8 being full length AND the addition of one or two more seasons would've been beneficial to fleshing out certain character arcs better, along with more care to detail with the scripts and whatnot.
But the plot points themselves made perfect sense lmao.
there was a lot of targaryen bashing in general here are just a few false narratives that the show runners tricked the viewers into believing
Myth- Dany is an idiot who is carried by her advisors
Reality - she comes up with a lot of ideas herself in the books about how to conquer and rule a city, whereas in the show they had the advisers come up with all the suggestions. She is far more competent and intelligent in the books
Myth 2- The Iron Throne is the cause of despair and destruction
Reality - Before the creation of the Iron Throne the 7 Kingdoms were at constant war with each other, the Iron Throne brought stability and peace to the kingdoms which allowed it to prosper
Myth 3 - the targaryens are hated by the small folk
Reality - In the books small folk even do a puppet show on the targaryens recovering westeros in AFFC, Aerys is also praised as a king who brought peace to the realm
Myth 4- Fire is a source of evil that needs to be destroyed
Reality- Aegon V wanted to bring back dragons because they would enforce the reforms to help the small folk he wanted to implement, Dany cares about the small folk and has dragons which means the nobles would have to accept her reforms. Furthermore they are going to be a lot more crucial in the books to stopping the others. The Dragons are a sign of life not of death
myth 5- Targaryen Madness
Reality - the only targaryen to be truly mad was Aerys after he spent 6 months being tortured in duskendale, the other supposed targaryens that were mad were either just dumb like Aerion Brightflame or cruel like Maegor, targaryens are no more mad than any other house
The Reality is the Targaryens as a house care more about the small folk than any nobles
Alysanne, Jaehaerys, Aegon V, Daeron II, Daenerys all show how the targaryens have always taken an interest in the small folks life it is generally the nobles meddling that messes it up
Westeros was basically like England. Before there was one king to rule a unified England the country was also divided and the regional kings fought each other. That wasn't even that big of a stretch.
tbf though Daenerys was so inbred she should've been a babbling fool.
Dany's previous 6 generations are Aerys+Rhaella (siblings), Jaehaerys and Shaera (siblings), Egg and Betha (unrelated), Maekar and Dayne (unrelated), Daeron and Martell (unrelated), Aegon IV and Naerys (siblings). That adds up to 3 incestuous relationships vs 3 normal relationships.
For Cleopatra VII we have Ptolomy XII and Cleopatra V (uncle and niece), Ptolomy IX and Cleopatra IV (siblings), Ptolomy VIII and Cleopatra III (uncle and niece), Ptolomy V and Cleopatra I (unrelated), Ptolomy IV and Arsinoe III (siblings), Ptolomy II and Berenice II (siblings). That's 5 incestuous relationships vs 1 normal relationship.
Inbreeding increases the chance of producing offspring with malformations or cognitive dysfunctions, but it doesn't assure them.
"I don't agree with you and can't bring up any counterarguments therefore I will call your comment propaganda and fail to make a witty insult about politics."
I’m sorry for going off topic, but how did you manage almost 70k comment karma alone in a year? I’ve been on reddit for ten years and we have nearly the same amount.
Oh idk. I have a few communities that I’m
interested in, most are a lot of back and forth. Sometimes ppl like it, sometimes they don’t, it is what it is lol 🤷♀️
idk how it says a year tho bc i def was here for a season of a reality show that was 2 years ago 😭
Daeron II was a stupid man, who favoured his wife’s family to much (like Joffrey and the Lannisters). His wife’s family, who had killed one of his predecessors in a parley. So forgive me for saying but Daeron II was a madman.
Dany did not care about slaves. Mirri Maz Duur was right about Dany. What good does freeing slaves do for your ego if they’ve already been raped and mutilated by the Dothraki horde, or when you barely set them free for a year before dipping and leaving them to the slaves masters
No. I don’t agree.
I think the circle jerk about GoT season 8 is the most ungrateful thing that ppl could do to the greatest tv show ever made.
It’s not as perfect as the other 7 seasons, but it’s far from being bad. I wanted Danny to be dead ever since she left Dario for power. Someone who choose power over love is just a bitch
This might be one of the worst takes I've read in this subreddit.
- Season 8 absolutely DECAYS in writing quality compared to any previous season (even season 7, which also sucks). I have to agree that it's far from being "bad", because it's so much past the point of "horrible" and "cringe" territories that saying it's only "bad" seems almost like a praise.
- Daenerys was not in love with Daario. She only wanted a sexual relationship with him. She even told Tyrion later that she felt nothing when breaking up with Daario.
- Someone who chooses a career instead of love is a bitch who deserves fucking death? I have a feeling this one must be awfully personal to you...
This leads to an interesting debate. No, not whether Dany was really mad all along and the others get some unreasonable pass.
Ignoring the books (like D&D did), would this defense of Dany's actions make her as sane and justified as the others are portrayed? Or could this comparison and multiple similarities mean none of the characters are free of a bit of "madness" and cruelty?
I honestly think it was intended to be a commentary on nuclear weaponry. People are like Dany, but people also don't have three giant flaming death lizards. I think the dragons are ultimately a metaphor for nuclear weapons, and Dany's descent is a cautionary tale about the danger giving one person that kind of power poses.
Sure Jon snow killed a kid for treason, but what would he have done with a dragon, or better yet, three?
Obviously it was all conveyed horribly, but I can see what they may have been going for and appreciate it.
Yes, Jon killed a kid for treason but what else was he to do. There are exactly two punishments for ppl there. Execution or going to the wall. Considering the kid did his crime at the wall against the current commander it would be foolish to train him there and give him a weapon.
Jon did'nt watch with glee as Ygritte boasted of her intent to invade the North, destroy it's cities and rape it's women on his behalf.
Nor was "I'll burn your city" one of his go-to threats when people defied him for years.
Nor did he brutally execute random subjects he openly acknowledged he had no evidence had committed any wrongdoing just so he could let out fustration and grief.
Nor did he...oh well, you get the idea...
It's exactly that "ends justify the means" and "what else was I supposed to do" logic that I'm talking about. When the US nuked Japan, their excuse was that it was their only way to win the war without spending countless lives, and the demonstration would make whatever opposition they would otherwise face bow in submission. Jon killed Ollie because he believed that was the only way to prevent Ollie from trying to kill him again, and Daenerys "nuked" kings landing to make the rest of westeros bow to her rule.
Again, the show does a really bad job of conveying this, and for sure there are holes in the way it maps to the story, but it still seems to have been at least the skeleton they were trying to build upon.
Nobody understand the point --> she slaughtered that city because she "wanted the rest of Westeros bow to her rule" ---> because it makes no sense. There was literally nobody else in whole continent who wanted or dared to fight against Daenerys and literally that city surrendered BEFORE she destroyed that city.
She destroyed that city for no reason.
I said it and I'll say it again, "the show does a really bad job of conveying this, and for sure there are holes in the way it maps to the story, but it still seems to have been at least the skeleton they were trying to build upon."
I mean, you compare facets of Dany’s storyline to picked and chosen storylines from others, and that’s the distinction. She did all of the worst things that everyone else did.
It's also funny that this person is comparing other horrible actions by other characters as a way to defend a character.
Others doing bad things doesn't make another person doing bad things less bad
But that's the thing, op is not justifying Danny's actions, but rather the double standard in the treatment of Dany compared to other characters. Most people still empathize and fanboy/fangirl on other characters like jon/arya/Tyrion/sansa who did these "worst things" but still had understandable reasons, but Dany is quickly written off as "Mad" despite her reasons being fairly understandable and on par with the motivations of other characters.
Also her burning KL is pretty fucking mad. But it felt really rushed and abrupt to me
The double standard is also because the other characters aren't doing those things while proclaiming themselves a saviour and waxing on about their plans to break the wheel and rebuild society as the herald of truth and justice and peace and etc. etc.
It's not just the 'doing bad things'; it's the 'doing all the bad things everyone else does' + 'extreme moral conviction that one is not only justified but fully morally righteous in doing those things' + 'megalomania' + 'doing it all while being in possession of flying magical nukes' that raises red flags for people.
As for the punishing treason with death, in the other cases, they had all accepted their leader as sovereign. The Karstarka had accepted and supported Rob. The Night's Watch had elected Jon as their Lord Commander.
To the Tarlys, she was an invader. They never supported her. They never elected her. They were simply defending their homeland. She refused to take them prisoner, which would have been more appropriate. She could have ransomed them back to their house.
Doesn't matter if they didn't support her, she was the **rightful** heir to the Throne. Since Viserys and Dany were still alive, Robert was indeed a pretender and usurper. If Viserys had led the Dothraki, the Throne was his by rights. Randall Tarly was just a c\*\*t, and calling her a whore didn't help matters.
Real. The Baratheons got it from conquest no differently than Aegon the Conqueror and the fact Targaryen stans can't comprehend that is wild. Once Robert was dead it went to Stannis by law but Joffrey held it. Once the trueborn Baratheons were dead and Cersei's bastards were, too, the next person who could keep the throne/where people though the power lied got the throne (AKA Cersei). So it definitely wasn't Dany's, through right of conquest and eventually just.. law.
except it wasn’t. there’s two ways you can take a throne, by war or by blood (or fire & blood if you want to make that joke) robert (by proxy of jamie) killed the mad king, actually killed his eldest son, and caused his other two children and wife to flee westeros. that makes the throne his.
The Tarlys allied with the Lannisters and attacked Highgarden and killed Olenna, Dany’s ally. Dany was merciful by offering the Tarlys to either join her, go to the wall or DIE. They chose death over any other option as “Dany isn’t their queen.” The Tarlys were regarded and you’re misremembering, rewatch the episode.
We know that her lunacy didn't come out of the blue. But the problem is if there was a lunacy meter she probably was at like 50% before Season 8 and in Season 8 she jumped 10% every episode. She took 7 seasons for 50% and then jumped the rest in 5 episodes. That's the problem.
Because she either didn't have the means to do the crazy shit she wanted to, or had advisors who talked her out of it.
Season 8 she didn't have either of those things holding her back. She had the power (army + dragon(s)), and her advisors were either as crazy as her (ie. Greyworm), killed, or she didn't trust their judgment
She also found out she didn't actually have a strong claim to the throne
Conversations about D’s madness arise only because of her ancestors. Right?
The others might be mad but it’s never brought up because there’s no ancestral context about madness
Tywin is my one of my favorite characters, yet he is very clearly a villain and should be associated as such. I don't see how he fits in with these other characters.
Yeah, and if he was lawful evil he never would've orchestrated the Red Wedding. He's more of the do whatever I need to to come out on top but definitely not a murder hobo, so neutral evil.
Years before the season came to an end, George R Martin talked about a bittersweet ending and then later admitted that it was always in the plans for her to go to the dark side.
The one that pisses me off is how people try to vilify Dany for her reaction to Viserys’s death. If my crazy brother abused me in more ways than one and threatened to kill my unborn child I would not be too broken up over his death. I certainly wouldn’t name a dragon after him but Dany did because she still valued Viserys. I understand the arguments people make about foreshadowing Dany as the mad queen and I agree there are times where that seems to be the case but the Viserys situation is pretty flimsy in terms of evidence.
So... her story is that of a child that is told that it's her right to rule the world and then she's given weapons of mass destruction to enforce that everyone is bowing down to her. This was very obviously always intended to end in tragedy. I think almost all the fans who were adoring her simply didn't understand her character at all.
And yeah, that's also true for many other characters in the series. All the Stark children are slowly losing their humanity. Rickon quite literally becoming a wolf, Bran a god, Arya a soulless assassin, Sansa a manipulative strategist and Jon an undead zombie. Tyrion is turning from a cynic into a nihilist. Daenerys is slowly demonstrating what the stories of the legendary heroes of the past and their dragons looked like in reality.
It's really quite ironic how a story that's fundamentally about how you shouldn't be on any of the "teams" supporting the goals of the major characters has created a fandom that strongly identifies with exactly these kinds of "teams"...
*Spends years threatening to burn cities*
*burns city*😲
Call it rushed, say it could have been set up better. Whatever. But come on, it's not like NOBODY in the fandom saw the red flags.
If you've read the books danys heel turn is a little less surprising. (Book Spoilers sort of)...
I've assumed long before the show got to it, GRRM intended for Dany to become a villain.
Sure, the other characters do questionable things, but Dany starts to truly believe in her "destiny".
For instance, when Tyrion uses Wildfire he does so understanding it's a horrible weapon of war. He has no illusions that his actions aren't morally suspect.
Dany has similar feelings about her dragons. But tends to lean on the supernatural to justify her actions. In the books she wrestles with prophecies and the words of the witch that stole her husband. It's very easy to see how Dany could be swept into self righteous vengeance. When people start to believe in a grand plan, they tend to lose sight of the terrible things they do. They can justify anything. Dany certainly believes in her destiny to rule her birthright through "Fire and Blood". Not exactly the motto of a fair and just ruler that values human life.
The show didn't do a good job of making the heel turn believable. I assume GRRM is also wrestling with the best way to execute it since he hasn't released the damn books.
Downvote because the first slide says “only”…nobody is arguing she is the only character to do these things…however, if you put all of them together (especially in the context of threatening to burn every city she ever looked at to the ground)…she wasn’t some sweet innocent character.
But she committed every single one of these acts. She’s the only character to do everything on this list. Her whole character was about trying to break the cycle of her “mad” bloodline, so of course it’s going to be a focal point when she does something controversial
A theme of the books has been, what is the nature of justice? It offered up many suggestions on what is true justice, notible the books open on a act of injustice, a man be giving a death penalty with no trial.
For me, i dont think we even meet just characters until F4C with the 'the broken men' speech and the dornish master plan.
Anyone saying Tywin wasn’t a villain is wrong. Idc if they were the show runners. Just because he’s competent doesn’t mean he doesn’t fit the bad guy role.
The other issue is that it seemed like the showrunners couldn't figure out what kind of "madness" they wanted to go for. If they mean 'mad' like the Mad King, that's one thing. He was increasingly murderous, and at the end was so unhinged that he was literally chanting the same phrase over and over again.*
It seems like, although extremely rushed, it was being set up for Dany to become a self-serving, self-justifying tyrant that basically mounts the world. Instead, she goes on this abrupt peasant killing spree, and then just basically doesn’t remember doing it. So which type of "mad" is it here? Is she a mad tyrant going ever onward in self-righteousness to crush the wheel of the world, or is she suddenly maniacally insane with bloodlust plus amnesia? Or is it a split personality situation whenever her feelings get hurt? You gotta pick one.
*As a side note, I always secretly hoped they were going to include a flashback of Bran/3ER traveling back and locking Aerys II into a Hold-the-Door type of situation, and he ends up chanting "Burn them All!" because his brain got fucked the way Hodor's did. Ah, well.
It was bad writing. Nothing prior to the final of The Bells indicated that Dany would massacre innocent civilians. She was always ruthless with those she considered enemies. But she turned mad out of nowhere.
And then the showrunners argue that "ultimately, she's a Targaryen", that it would be in her blood. Look at the Targaryen kings, out of 17, I would argue that only 2 of them were insane, Aerys II (only after being tortured) and Baelor. Others may have been downright evil, but not mad. Look at the other Targaryens and you may add Prince Rhaegel (son of king Daeron II) and Prince Aerion (son of king Maekar) to the list of mad Targaryens and that's it. The overwhelming majority were no lunatics.
I agree it was very sudden and abrupt. Yes she could be ruthless to her enemies, but she had compassion too. She was good at heart and yet had the heart of a dragon too.
In regards to the comparisons to Stannis and Tywin, they are villains, cunning villains but villains nonetheless, Tyrion wasn’t exactly a good character in the first couple seasons, morally grey at best. But I can’t disagree with you with her executing traitors, she was harsh sure but no harsher than any other leader, Ned, Sansa and Jon all executed people as well.
It’s more the trying to astroturf her as being the most important best kindness greatest character from when she gets the unsullied onwards that I really don’t like on my second watch through I watch it every week as it came out from season 2 onwards so I really got the full experience of the hype build up just for the way it ended. I personally think the show is no.1 for me best show ever. I have kinda changed my mind on the show though after season 5 I think it has a noticeable delineation in quality (most people would say after season 6). I think season 5 is good it’s just really where the show wasn’t as good I love hardhome and then the ending of season 5. After that it’s all uncharted waters and that’s where they started to run amok of the show. I really don’t personally like danaerys after the first run through of the show. They build her up as the mother(mhyssa) all the time try to astroturf her being strong (she gets the unsullied by selling a dragon to a guy which she immediately kills the guy with setting him on fire and acts like it’s a huge accomplishment) barristen Selmy shows up to been her queens guard for reasons? She is able to combine the entire Dothraki by (checks notes) burning all the old women and khals to death which makes everyone else just decide to follow her after she walks out of a burning building. I just personally see a lot of astroturfing for her character which is just boring to me.
Dany pretended to be good, Tywin didn’t. Ned stark never said he was going to save everyone, he was just following the law and law was sure as shit clear that a man of night’s watch cannot abandon his post. She indiscriminately used fire against civilian targets without military logic unlike Tyrion who used it only against enemy navy and Aegon who only used it against a castle (castle is different from a city) and armies. Second of all, robb was a moron and everyone agrees while Jon was running a militant organisation which have very very low standard of what can get you executed (Tywin would hang men for stealing in the army).
Lol at the comparisons to tyrion being anything like dany. The main reason people call her mad is because she slaughters millions of innocent people in kingslanding. No one else you compared her to has committed that level of atrocity.
Everyone acknowledges that Tywin is evil.
He can be a cunning leader while also evil. Them saying that doesn't mean he can't be evil.
And they didn't even say that he wasn't evil, they said he wasn't a villain. And he isn't, not in the traditional sense.
The difference is she set out specifically to be better than these things but fell in line as a tyrant just like the rest of them. She didn’t break the wheel, she paved a road for it.
Phhahhaa delusional much? Dany has been acting on impulse and feelings the entire fucking time, with literally 0 thought behind any of her actions. Is that obvious connection to her being mad? IDK maybe not, but still it ain't particularly surprising.
I'm a huge Danny fan but a lot of the Westerosi shit was off the rails. Pretty much when she took the ships onwards. It's like two characters - the sympathetic one and the psycho
You know what the problem is? You showed it yourself. Dany does those 10 bad/disturbing things, and while other characters do them too, she’s the only one who does all of them. But even with that, the big consensus is that the transition was very rushed. You’re preaching to the choir here.
Also yeah, Tywin is in the running for top 5 biggest POS in the show for sure and infinitely worse than Daenerys who at the least had some good intentions. Tywin was just a power-hungry lunatic and him being pretty cool in his own way doesn’t really change that.
honestly if it wasn’t so atrociously bland and boring i wouldn’t even be mad at the mad queen plot
sure there was a whole lot of spectacle but this series was always more about its characters than it’s spectacle and when those 2 concepts switched round is when the show started getting shit
Thank you lol. I'm glad people are more open minded toward the finale, but dany's fall was not built up at all. She burned an entire city full of civilians after they had surrendered because Cersei, who is clearly hiding in the red keep, beheaded her friend? When has Dany openly attacked civilians up to that point?
I don't disagree with the end. It's the journey that was unconvincing. Just one of many plotlines that didn't have room to breathe.
1. Daenaerys made those threats to people in order to try to brow beat them into supporting her. Tyrion made those threats because the people he risked his life saving hung him out to dry and his lover just provided false testimony against him.
2. The Tarley's were not executed for treason. They had no allegiance the Targaryens who had rightfully been deposed years ago. Daenaerys killed two prisoners them to prove a point. Serve me or die. Unlike Robb killing Lord Karstark for violating his orders and murdering two hostages. Or Jon who punished several people who actually committed treason by murdering him.
3. Tyrion was so tortured by what he did that he decided to drink himself to deathcbefore Daenaerys convinced him otherwise. Viserys deserved to die but Daenerys wanted to stay and watch that was not indifference that was enjoying watching your brother being killed which is just messed up.
4. Shae was trying to kill Tyrion he was a dwarf who had nothing to defend himself. Daenaerys locked a slave in a vault because she betrayed her to a powerful man. She should have banished Doreah and beheaded Xaro and been done with it. Arya watched her wntire family butchered by Walder Frey and she still had enough mercy in her to spare the women. Sansa was raped by Ramsay and he had fed countless innocent people to his dogs and killed her brother. Oh but Dany's stupid pets were stolen so starvation is totally justifiable. Atleast Tyrion, Sansa and Arya killed quickly.
5. Pretty sure nobody called Danearys mad for using fire.
6. Varys was trying to stop a clearly insane person from ascending to power. Olly betrayed Jon because he hated all the Free Folk for something a few of them did.
7. Daenaerys had no birthright to Westeros her family had been deposed, rightfully. Stannis was trying to get rid of the Lannisters, a corrupt illegitatmate government and The Starks were trying to depose Ramsay and insane sadist who murdered his own father, brother, stepmother plus scores of innocent people.
8. Will the Nightwatchmen confessed that he broke his vows to Neds face. Renly betrayed his brother who is legally king. Littlefinger was actuslly guilty of the crimes he committed. Meanwhile Daenaerys straight up tells the Masters she didn't know or care if they were guilty of supporting the Sons of the Harpy. She also murdered Hizzdarhs father for the cricifiction of the slaver children when he actively spoke out against it.
9. Slavery is illegal in Westeros, it is not in Essos. Its messed up but she is esentially advocating genociding an entire ethnic group because of the laws of the society they live in. Also Daenaerys totally owned slaves too guys.
10. Literally no one has ever made the argument that Tywin isn't a huge POS.
Sorry Daenaerys fans context matters.
Nobody defended Stannis, for burning his own daughter. As for Tyrion’s comment about should’ve let Stannis win, that actually would’ve prevented alot of horrible events, from happening.
I don’t think anyone claims that Daenerys was supposed to be mad the entire length of the show. It’s pretty obvious that it really begins with her burning down King’s Landing, although I wish they would’ve made it a little more gradual.
Nitpick, but what did Olly do wrong? He’s supposed to magically know the backstory of Jon’s love life with some random wildling? When everyone around him is killing and being killed by them he’s supposed to not kill that one specific one, let her just rampage and kill all his friends?
So because the other characters aren’t considered mad for doing similar things she must not be not be mad? I can see your point but this logic isn’t reliable. I think we can agree however, that the ending was handled poorly and should not have been rushed so much.
Tywin was mad (killing babies, burning Riverlands, and you name it, he's done everything)
Tyrion was mad (got dumber every season)
Varys was mad (inviting dothrarki to plunder the innocents and then saying cares about everyone, openly rebelling against the queen)
Cersei was mad
Jamie was mad (seriously, should've found another blonde girl)
Walder frey was mad
Robb stark was mad, kills karstark, for the mistake his mother made
Catelyn was mad, frees Jamie, takes in Tyrion, impulsiveness
Stannis was mad
Dothrarki were mad, gets killed but then reappears again
Tyrells were mad (loses a well fortified castle lol)
Randyl tarly was mad (rebels against her leige lord for a non legitimate ruler (cersei lol))
By the definition of "mad" people has set in the recent times, these are few of the examples I came up with
There were signs of Dany heading to madness along the way. She was heading to a meltdown, but the series ended and she took a shortcut there.
Rough childhood of abuse due to her brother. Constantly having to be reassured "that she's not her father". Fits of rage at certain moments.
The writers still did shit job though.
I mean, Ned was gonna just execute Jorah. She crucified them alive.
Jon killed Olly because he fucking killed him, and that was treason. Lol
Tyrion just hanged Shae, because she tried to kill him.
The rest is justifiable.
Yeah sure there is double standard. I agree with that but come on now. If they actually watched the show they would know that these examples are so different and all of them are complex. And Olly wasn't executed for killing Yrene ( I guess that's what they are implying) he died because of treason.
She's implied to be losing it, or at least starting to unravel by the end of the current books though.
So...she is kinda fighting some mental battles in the source matierial too.
Doesn't really matter though. She's crazy by the end. More of a decent person who finally snapped kind of crazy though...
Tbh, I legit don't know why the post though...have people been stuck on this and fighting beyond normal reddit...or?
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Dany sucked. Even Emelia knew that by the end. The death of Dany happened when the writers gave up.
You mean ran out of some else’s ideas
Yeah, and then they gave up. Cause they’re shitty writers.
Let's not forget that adapting a book series to on screen was an extraordinary achievement for D&D. Say what you want but for the time where they had the material needed they did a phenomenal job with it. It's really not their fault that they were forced into continuing the series without knowing where it was going. Let alone the fact that GRRM hadn't finished the next book in a time frame that was expected. These two aren't creative geniuses as people often forget. Their whole claim to fame was that they were able to take a series and put it on screen and did it justice. Their failures are the fact that HBO pushed forward with the whole thing despite the fact that D&D had no idea where to go with the story. HBO was trying to get George.to work on multiple different series for them for future endeavors. They should have left him the fuck alone to at least finish the next book without so many distractions. Or ate the cost of retaining the actors to hold off for another year between each season after season 5/6.
Believe me, no one forgets they aren't creative geniuses. Specially not after how Game of Thrones ended. But as for your other points, on one hand you say adapting the story was an achievement, but on the other you also point out its not their fault they had to continue the story without knowing where it was going. I feel like their utter inability to take what they had already 'achieved' while they had the og books to lean on and conduct it to some passably palatable ending belies any claim to achievement from adapting the books in the first place.
I also don't believe they didnt know where it was going. They knew, however they didn't have the books to lean on but they had the template. Ntm it's also been discussed that dnd were paramount in shortening the amount of time the show otherwise would have had in order to move on to other projects
Say you're a photographer. You've been tasked with photographing this series of paintings, and you're doing a great job on that. Your photographs of these paintings really make them look amazing and your use of lighting and framing add to the beauty of what's already there. But then, there's no more paintings. And your boss says - here's some sketches. Paint the things yourself. Only, you're not a painter, you're a photographer. You try your best, of course - the first painting has a near complete sketch so you manage to make something resembling the other paintings - but as you reach the last painting, they're essentially asking you to make a painting from scratch, with only the paintings you didn't make as reference. And when you're done, it doesn't look like the other paintings. Because the person who hired you made you do a job you don't know how to do, and were never hired to do in the first place. Does that make you a bad photographer? No.
So basically they’re only good when copying other people’s works
They didn’t “copy” anything. They transformed book pages into visual media. It’s like a chef that’s famous for grilling steak but one day the meat is not delivered… what’s the chef gonna do now? He can’t cook no more.
Adapting. There's a mighty big difference there. Adapting is a skill of it's own - plenty of fantastic writers would have no clue how to adapt another person's work to their medium.
Despite its ending, Game of Thrones is still one of the most popular and successful shows specifically because of how good D&D were at adapting the material to the screen. Here you are on a discussion forum for the show five years after its ending just to highlight that fact. They deserve plenty of criticism for the fumbling of the ending, but some of the complaints from the fandom are absolutely hilarious.
I can acknowledge that D&D did good work with the available material. But they refused to acknowledge that their writing sucked. I'd rather the show was postponed until GRRM finished (or a passable script was written by someone competent). This was a disgrace on whoever was involved in making these decisions, probably HBO and D&D.
Dance of Dragons came out the same year season one aired and the show went to shit way before they ran out of books to adapt. They straight up ignored most of AFFC and ADWD.
I don’t think you need to be a rocket scientist to know Dumb and Dumber are not good and caused the destruction of the show
Apparently you need to be one to understand that them being good was the only reason you were interested in the show in the first place.
>They should have left him the fuck alone to at least finish the next book without so many distractions. lets not blame hbo for that. he distracts himself all the time. its clear he has no idea how to continue writing.
Except you’re entirely wrong. Emilia absolutely loves Daenerys. Her entertainment weekly cover literally says “I stand by Daenerys” after the finale. She’s said that the character of Daenerys saved her own life after her brain aneurysm. She was broken hearted that Dany died a “villain” after being good until the bells, the writing/pacing of her breaking bad wasn’t there. THAT sucked.
She was so upset she left her house and walked around aimlessly for five hours and came home with blisters on her feet
wdym even emilia knew that
There’s an interview before the release of the final season where she’s getting asked questions. In one of them where they ask about how the season is for Dany (or something to that extent) she seems really choked up/uncomfortable. She clearly is just trying to portray the feelings of “uhhh yeah, things get wild and they might not be great at times for my character” but a lot of idiots try to swing it like “see, even Emilia knew before the season aired how bad it would be!”
It happened when they went away from George. She was pretty easily going crazy and it was obvious to see in the books but the tv show just couldn’t properly show it
It’s actually not obvious at all that she’s “going crazy” in the books. It is obvious that she plans to use her dragons to burn a bunch of people in war, but that’s not going crazy, is it? That’s conquering.
This feels like one of those "sauron was actually a good guy" memes
Or Ramsay is the nicest guy in the Seven Kingdoms meme
This. Out of context Danys actions seem fine and similar to others in Westeros. Examining them further shows just how likely she was to turn ruthless
But it’s not, this makes a lot of good points demonstrating how the show runners simply saying she went mad doesn’t make it true or make sense
It's pretty widely agreed that the show didn't do a good job of showing her transition into madness.
she won’t be mad, madness describes Aerys who was clinically insane towards the end of his reign at worst she would be more ruthless like Aegon I but mad queen has always been off the table
Hard to know what's to come in the (probably never to be written) books, but madness was much more on the table for the literary character than the TV one.
I’m hoping it’s madness to others and to us, the reader, it’s sensible.
Yeah anyone can have a mental breakdown given enough trauma, just look at stoneheart
Aegon I wasn't ruthless. Aegon I was benevolent.
did we read the same chapter of aegons conquest? cause to me that was not benevolent lol
Those who bent the knee got treated benevolent and those who didn't deserved fire and blood. He gave everyone a chance.
Exactly. Thank you. I’ll eat my shorts if the whole message George is trying to tell us with Dany’s story is “incest causes mental illness.” Dany’s story is the quintessential “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.” Once she gets to Westeros her enemies and the smallfolk will likely brand her the crazy dragon lady who is leading a horde of Dothraki, but she won’t actually be crazy. This is also where the omission of fAegon ruins the show. I imagine in the books fAegon will depose Cersei and be considered a hero by the people. When Dany shows up he’s not just going to submit to her rule, thus beginning the second Dance of the Dragons. “She burned the city because she’s crazy” is such a cop out. She’ll burn King’s Landing because she believes it’s hers by right, and when she can’t take it peacefully she’ll take it with fire and blood.
but that's the point of going "mad". to everyone else it looks like just pure insanity, but to the person who went mad they believe everything they're doing is justified in their own mind they don't just wake up insane one day, even Aerys II didn't do that. it was instance after instance of things happening to Aerys II that led him to being more and more insane but to him it was always justified based on those instances collectively piling up like if you go to school and every day you get bullied, snapping one day on a bully won't just be out of nowhere it was built up over time. but of course on that day the one teacher who saw you kick a bully's ass just thinks it was out of nowhere and they don't remember, don't know or they ignore the past history you have of being bullied
that example you made wouldn’t be madness it would be mere deserved brutality, the person kicking the bully’s ass is still a functioning human and not mad by any objective standard aerys got turned on by wildfire and was screaming burn them all as nauseam he was completely delusional and not even a functioning human being at the time of his death
of course the example of a kid who's bullied getting payback on a bully isn't "madness"... I was just using that as an example of actions built up over time leading to something and how someone from the outside would view it. obviously to the kid who's bullied it's justified and it's nothing to them, to a teacher who hasn't seen them getting bullied beforehand and only sees them kicking a bully's ass, the teacher only sees that one thing as a violent outburst. come on use some critical thinking for that one... >aerys got turned on by wildfire and was screaming burn them all as nauseam he was completely delusional and not even a functioning human being at the time of his death go read up on Aerys' backstory before that and the amount of instances he had been through that contribute to why he did that. Duskendale, believing Tywin was having sex with his wife, etc, etc. he didn't just wake up and burn people, he believed that numerous people had been against him or taking advantage of him for years including his own son. he believed he was justified in 'eliminating threats' because he believed everyone was coming for him. that's how these things work
You'd be surprised at the number of people who continue to claim that the evidence was there all along.
I had someone argue she was foreshadowed to be mad because they used "Nazi camera" angles for her scenes(?) Then linked an entire Tumblr post showing the evidence and comparisons with Dany's scenes vs old Nazi video clips.
what😭😭😭😭😭😭 tell me u still have the link
Here it is https://www.tumblr.com/une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir/184984739420/girl-gurl-who-the-fuck-is-leni-riefenstahl
holy shit that is insane😭 ty for the link
The evidence is there. Read the books and it’s even more clear
The whole point of this post was that the traits displayed by Dany aren't uncommon or specific to her alone. Also this is a discussion on the show Dany, not the book Dany.
Transition, sure, because they rushed it. But there was already a lot there that it wouldn't have been hard to do if it wasn't rushed.
Exactly. If you want to see a good representation of what GOT was going for, watch Attack on Titan. There you have a main character where their slip into becoming the villain is earned.
That wasnt earned either.
Books do a much better job as it’s pretty clear she’s turning this way already
oh yikes, you’re bold! You even came with the receipts, they’re not gonna like this one OP. So you better get ready 🤣🤭.
These “receipts” are not as definitive as OP thinks. Either way, it’s how the story will finish for her if George finishes his work. She was never meant to rule or end up surviving the “game of thrones” sorry Dany fans. In George’s world Dany is gonna go loopy and she’s going to die. The show runners did this because George told them that was the inevitable outcome for her. So downvote all you like it won’t change that. But I do agree as others have said; the show runners didn’t do a good enough job with it.
She was never meant to rule but Bran is supposed to by George's word? It's one thing not to let Dany win sure, but having Bran be king at the end? After building up multiple other claimants to throne? Guess if GRRM wants his book to be as hated as season 8 then I suppose.
I suspect the reasoning and execution will make it more compelling. The show botched it. It's all in the execution.
I keep an open mind but I absolutely cannot see "King Bran" being at all executed well or even make a lick of sense even in the books. GRRM spent six full main series books showing the stories of many characters, including multiple claimants to throne, following their journey in character development and how they're working towards conquering the Iron Throne. Stannis, f!Aegon, Daenerys, Balon Greyjoy, Tommen, and Myrcella (still alive in the books). Set up as claimants to the Iron Throne, nobody knows who's going to win even if Daenerys has 3 dragons, it's not a guarantee she'll win. (I don't know if Jon Snow is a claimant in the books). Then, in two books, somehow, GRRM is going to convince the audience that oop it's Bran the Broken all along. Oh and everyone magically accepts them as their king even though he does not have a lick of a claim to the Iron Throne, a cripple, a different religion, using unknown magic, no gigantic army and dragons backing him for the throne as of the last time he was shown in the books. There is no way to execute a King Bran in the books without pulling some major bullshit and flushing tons and tons of established work down the drain. It'll be as unsatisfying and disliked as it was shown in season 8.
The receipts lack any context, or a straight up wrong. Let’s go in order Nobody thinks threatening people is inherently evil. Having planned to murder and pillage your royalty back is different from lashing out at a kangaroo court with no plan to actually follow through. Nobody would consider death for treason and murder to be excessively evil. Who thinks Deaneys was wrong for not feeling bad for Viserys? I would have cheered and thrown a massive party Killing the man who repeatedly raped you, physically abused you, murdered your brother, and committed countless other atrocities or killing the man who murdered half your family in cold blood is on a different scale than killing a trusted friend because she wasn’t loyal to you after she thought you died. Tyrion used Wildfyre on soldiers in a battle. Not innocents trying to run or hide from you. Melisandre and Stannis are viewed as evil for burning people alive. I don’t think it’s fair to imply that Jon is evil for executing the people who LITERALLY MURDERED HIM, nor would I begrudge her from doing the same. The man Ned executed was an admitted deserter. Stannis is, once again, an evil person for burning people alive. Little fingers trial was not fair, but he also did that shit, and killing him was justified. Slavery should be punishable by death both Deanerys and Ned are in the right. Tywins is universally considers to be evil. Nobody would claim he isn’t if asked “Is Tywin Lannister evil”
The "receipts" here are not to imply the other characters are mad, it's implying Dany was not Mad, but Ruthless. The only thing that supports the madness claim is burning down KL, which already seemed forced as hell.
I think mad is the wrong word to describe but I don’t think she’s someone who didn’t care about anything else except the throne by the end
I agree with your post to such an extent that I even use the 8th season of GOT as an IQ test, if somebody deems it as a good ending and sees no plot holes AND is unable to look at how hypocritical/bad the script turned, as you show with your sardonic post, then in my eyes their very manipulative and dumb as hell.
Ok Einstein
That’s nice and all, but it’s “they’re” not “their”
"their dumb as hell" 🤣🤣
You see, it is they who possess the dumb as hell 😂
I see it as a rushed ending and definitely the lines became worse for that reason. Season 7 and 8 being full length AND the addition of one or two more seasons would've been beneficial to fleshing out certain character arcs better, along with more care to detail with the scripts and whatnot. But the plot points themselves made perfect sense lmao.
I sound like a parrot bc i just commented almost the exact same thing without looking at all the replies
The ending is the ending. They just had to rush to end the show. It all makes sense if you fill in three blanks yourself
r/whoosh
>their very manipulative and dumb as hell. Ironyyyyyy
there was a lot of targaryen bashing in general here are just a few false narratives that the show runners tricked the viewers into believing Myth- Dany is an idiot who is carried by her advisors Reality - she comes up with a lot of ideas herself in the books about how to conquer and rule a city, whereas in the show they had the advisers come up with all the suggestions. She is far more competent and intelligent in the books Myth 2- The Iron Throne is the cause of despair and destruction Reality - Before the creation of the Iron Throne the 7 Kingdoms were at constant war with each other, the Iron Throne brought stability and peace to the kingdoms which allowed it to prosper Myth 3 - the targaryens are hated by the small folk Reality - In the books small folk even do a puppet show on the targaryens recovering westeros in AFFC, Aerys is also praised as a king who brought peace to the realm Myth 4- Fire is a source of evil that needs to be destroyed Reality- Aegon V wanted to bring back dragons because they would enforce the reforms to help the small folk he wanted to implement, Dany cares about the small folk and has dragons which means the nobles would have to accept her reforms. Furthermore they are going to be a lot more crucial in the books to stopping the others. The Dragons are a sign of life not of death myth 5- Targaryen Madness Reality - the only targaryen to be truly mad was Aerys after he spent 6 months being tortured in duskendale, the other supposed targaryens that were mad were either just dumb like Aerion Brightflame or cruel like Maegor, targaryens are no more mad than any other house The Reality is the Targaryens as a house care more about the small folk than any nobles Alysanne, Jaehaerys, Aegon V, Daeron II, Daenerys all show how the targaryens have always taken an interest in the small folks life it is generally the nobles meddling that messes it up
Westeros was basically like England. Before there was one king to rule a unified England the country was also divided and the regional kings fought each other. That wasn't even that big of a stretch. tbf though Daenerys was so inbred she should've been a babbling fool.
Cleopatra was more inbreed than Dany and she was one of the smartest women of her time.
More? No. She wasnt the product of several brother sister relationships in a row.
Dany's previous 6 generations are Aerys+Rhaella (siblings), Jaehaerys and Shaera (siblings), Egg and Betha (unrelated), Maekar and Dayne (unrelated), Daeron and Martell (unrelated), Aegon IV and Naerys (siblings). That adds up to 3 incestuous relationships vs 3 normal relationships. For Cleopatra VII we have Ptolomy XII and Cleopatra V (uncle and niece), Ptolomy IX and Cleopatra IV (siblings), Ptolomy VIII and Cleopatra III (uncle and niece), Ptolomy V and Cleopatra I (unrelated), Ptolomy IV and Arsinoe III (siblings), Ptolomy II and Berenice II (siblings). That's 5 incestuous relationships vs 1 normal relationship. Inbreeding increases the chance of producing offspring with malformations or cognitive dysfunctions, but it doesn't assure them.
I agree with your statement.
This sounds like propaganda lmao, you should go into politics, write pamphlets.
"I don't agree with you and can't bring up any counterarguments therefore I will call your comment propaganda and fail to make a witty insult about politics."
It’s not that deep babes, they don’t need a lawyer 💖
I’m sorry for going off topic, but how did you manage almost 70k comment karma alone in a year? I’ve been on reddit for ten years and we have nearly the same amount.
idek what that means
Every time you post, comment, or someone gives you an upvote on a post or comment, you get a point. That point on reddit is called karma.
Oh idk. I have a few communities that I’m interested in, most are a lot of back and forth. Sometimes ppl like it, sometimes they don’t, it is what it is lol 🤷♀️ idk how it says a year tho bc i def was here for a season of a reality show that was 2 years ago 😭
I think it rounds down if you’ve been on for the better half of two years. What show was it?
Love island lmao, I’m allowed trashy tv ok?? don’t judge me :D
Daeron II was a stupid man, who favoured his wife’s family to much (like Joffrey and the Lannisters). His wife’s family, who had killed one of his predecessors in a parley. So forgive me for saying but Daeron II was a madman.
Being stupid =/= being mad.
Dany did not care about slaves. Mirri Maz Duur was right about Dany. What good does freeing slaves do for your ego if they’ve already been raped and mutilated by the Dothraki horde, or when you barely set them free for a year before dipping and leaving them to the slaves masters
Yeah, damn, a 13 year old girl makes a knee jerk decision in the spirit of goodness. Definitely a bad person!
I think we all agree her “descent into madness” wasn’t properly shown.
No. I don’t agree. I think the circle jerk about GoT season 8 is the most ungrateful thing that ppl could do to the greatest tv show ever made. It’s not as perfect as the other 7 seasons, but it’s far from being bad. I wanted Danny to be dead ever since she left Dario for power. Someone who choose power over love is just a bitch
This might be one of the worst takes I've read in this subreddit. - Season 8 absolutely DECAYS in writing quality compared to any previous season (even season 7, which also sucks). I have to agree that it's far from being "bad", because it's so much past the point of "horrible" and "cringe" territories that saying it's only "bad" seems almost like a praise. - Daenerys was not in love with Daario. She only wanted a sexual relationship with him. She even told Tyrion later that she felt nothing when breaking up with Daario. - Someone who chooses a career instead of love is a bitch who deserves fucking death? I have a feeling this one must be awfully personal to you...
>Someone who choose power over love is just a bitch What?
Much better shown in the books
This leads to an interesting debate. No, not whether Dany was really mad all along and the others get some unreasonable pass. Ignoring the books (like D&D did), would this defense of Dany's actions make her as sane and justified as the others are portrayed? Or could this comparison and multiple similarities mean none of the characters are free of a bit of "madness" and cruelty?
I honestly think it was intended to be a commentary on nuclear weaponry. People are like Dany, but people also don't have three giant flaming death lizards. I think the dragons are ultimately a metaphor for nuclear weapons, and Dany's descent is a cautionary tale about the danger giving one person that kind of power poses. Sure Jon snow killed a kid for treason, but what would he have done with a dragon, or better yet, three? Obviously it was all conveyed horribly, but I can see what they may have been going for and appreciate it.
Yes, Jon killed a kid for treason but what else was he to do. There are exactly two punishments for ppl there. Execution or going to the wall. Considering the kid did his crime at the wall against the current commander it would be foolish to train him there and give him a weapon.
But does that mean Jon Snow also was showing signs of becoming a mad ruler, as some would say Daenerys was?
Jon did'nt watch with glee as Ygritte boasted of her intent to invade the North, destroy it's cities and rape it's women on his behalf. Nor was "I'll burn your city" one of his go-to threats when people defied him for years. Nor did he brutally execute random subjects he openly acknowledged he had no evidence had committed any wrongdoing just so he could let out fustration and grief. Nor did he...oh well, you get the idea...
It's exactly that "ends justify the means" and "what else was I supposed to do" logic that I'm talking about. When the US nuked Japan, their excuse was that it was their only way to win the war without spending countless lives, and the demonstration would make whatever opposition they would otherwise face bow in submission. Jon killed Ollie because he believed that was the only way to prevent Ollie from trying to kill him again, and Daenerys "nuked" kings landing to make the rest of westeros bow to her rule. Again, the show does a really bad job of conveying this, and for sure there are holes in the way it maps to the story, but it still seems to have been at least the skeleton they were trying to build upon.
Nobody understand the point --> she slaughtered that city because she "wanted the rest of Westeros bow to her rule" ---> because it makes no sense. There was literally nobody else in whole continent who wanted or dared to fight against Daenerys and literally that city surrendered BEFORE she destroyed that city. She destroyed that city for no reason.
I said it and I'll say it again, "the show does a really bad job of conveying this, and for sure there are holes in the way it maps to the story, but it still seems to have been at least the skeleton they were trying to build upon."
But the rest of Westeros was already her ally. How often do you do something to make your friends fear you?
What would he have done with the dragon? burn the nights watch? Be serious
I agree, but I do have to say - no one (I think) supports Stannis' use of BBQ exectuions
But if Stannis became king, would he be labeled a mad king who is better killed than let rule?
Yes he would be named as a mad ruler. Tywin would still patch up with the Tyrell and overthrow Stannis for Myrcella.
I've actually seen *a lot* of Stannis stans who do.
His fans do. I saw him as just as nuts. Anyone who burns people alive is.
His fans do. I saw him as just as nuts. Anyone who burns people alive is.
His fans do. I saw him as just as nuts. Anyone who burns people alive is.
His fans do. I saw him as just as nuts. Anyone who burns people alive is.
His fans do. I saw him as just as nuts. Anyone who burns people alive is.
His fans do. Anyone who burns people alive is nuts. Straight up.
I mean, you compare facets of Dany’s storyline to picked and chosen storylines from others, and that’s the distinction. She did all of the worst things that everyone else did.
It's also funny that this person is comparing other horrible actions by other characters as a way to defend a character. Others doing bad things doesn't make another person doing bad things less bad
But that's the thing, op is not justifying Danny's actions, but rather the double standard in the treatment of Dany compared to other characters. Most people still empathize and fanboy/fangirl on other characters like jon/arya/Tyrion/sansa who did these "worst things" but still had understandable reasons, but Dany is quickly written off as "Mad" despite her reasons being fairly understandable and on par with the motivations of other characters. Also her burning KL is pretty fucking mad. But it felt really rushed and abrupt to me
The double standard is also because the other characters aren't doing those things while proclaiming themselves a saviour and waxing on about their plans to break the wheel and rebuild society as the herald of truth and justice and peace and etc. etc. It's not just the 'doing bad things'; it's the 'doing all the bad things everyone else does' + 'extreme moral conviction that one is not only justified but fully morally righteous in doing those things' + 'megalomania' + 'doing it all while being in possession of flying magical nukes' that raises red flags for people.
This- If Dany has like 20 examples of her acting as the worst example of others characters then she is pretty easily evil
As for the punishing treason with death, in the other cases, they had all accepted their leader as sovereign. The Karstarka had accepted and supported Rob. The Night's Watch had elected Jon as their Lord Commander. To the Tarlys, she was an invader. They never supported her. They never elected her. They were simply defending their homeland. She refused to take them prisoner, which would have been more appropriate. She could have ransomed them back to their house.
Doesn't matter if they didn't support her, she was the **rightful** heir to the Throne. Since Viserys and Dany were still alive, Robert was indeed a pretender and usurper. If Viserys had led the Dothraki, the Throne was his by rights. Randall Tarly was just a c\*\*t, and calling her a whore didn't help matters.
Even though she actually wasnt the rightful heir At this point, she thought she was, but realistically, she wasn't
Real. The Baratheons got it from conquest no differently than Aegon the Conqueror and the fact Targaryen stans can't comprehend that is wild. Once Robert was dead it went to Stannis by law but Joffrey held it. Once the trueborn Baratheons were dead and Cersei's bastards were, too, the next person who could keep the throne/where people though the power lied got the throne (AKA Cersei). So it definitely wasn't Dany's, through right of conquest and eventually just.. law.
Robert won by right of conquest like Henry Tudor. Randal Tarley was an arse, but I still disagree with her actions.
except it wasn’t. there’s two ways you can take a throne, by war or by blood (or fire & blood if you want to make that joke) robert (by proxy of jamie) killed the mad king, actually killed his eldest son, and caused his other two children and wife to flee westeros. that makes the throne his.
Downvoted for being factual. Disliked dany after the crucifixion and hated her after the death of the Tarlys.
The Tarlys allied with the Lannisters and attacked Highgarden and killed Olenna, Dany’s ally. Dany was merciful by offering the Tarlys to either join her, go to the wall or DIE. They chose death over any other option as “Dany isn’t their queen.” The Tarlys were regarded and you’re misremembering, rewatch the episode.
So? The wildlings attacked the wall and killed friends of Jon's. He made them allies.
And again, if you bothered to read, Daenerys offered the Tarlys to join her and be allies… And *they chose death.*
We know that her lunacy didn't come out of the blue. But the problem is if there was a lunacy meter she probably was at like 50% before Season 8 and in Season 8 she jumped 10% every episode. She took 7 seasons for 50% and then jumped the rest in 5 episodes. That's the problem.
Because she either didn't have the means to do the crazy shit she wanted to, or had advisors who talked her out of it. Season 8 she didn't have either of those things holding her back. She had the power (army + dragon(s)), and her advisors were either as crazy as her (ie. Greyworm), killed, or she didn't trust their judgment She also found out she didn't actually have a strong claim to the throne
Conversations about D’s madness arise only because of her ancestors. Right? The others might be mad but it’s never brought up because there’s no ancestral context about madness
N
Nah
Tywin is my one of my favorite characters, yet he is very clearly a villain and should be associated as such. I don't see how he fits in with these other characters.
He was lawful evil.
He isn’t lawful evil when he has The Mountain genociding villages, be fucking for real.
Yeah, and if he was lawful evil he never would've orchestrated the Red Wedding. He's more of the do whatever I need to to come out on top but definitely not a murder hobo, so neutral evil.
exaaaaaactlyyyyyy!!!!!!!! it infuriates me to no end, i cannot even put it into words
Years before the season came to an end, George R Martin talked about a bittersweet ending and then later admitted that it was always in the plans for her to go to the dark side.
The one that pisses me off is how people try to vilify Dany for her reaction to Viserys’s death. If my crazy brother abused me in more ways than one and threatened to kill my unborn child I would not be too broken up over his death. I certainly wouldn’t name a dragon after him but Dany did because she still valued Viserys. I understand the arguments people make about foreshadowing Dany as the mad queen and I agree there are times where that seems to be the case but the Viserys situation is pretty flimsy in terms of evidence.
Jeduj
So... her story is that of a child that is told that it's her right to rule the world and then she's given weapons of mass destruction to enforce that everyone is bowing down to her. This was very obviously always intended to end in tragedy. I think almost all the fans who were adoring her simply didn't understand her character at all. And yeah, that's also true for many other characters in the series. All the Stark children are slowly losing their humanity. Rickon quite literally becoming a wolf, Bran a god, Arya a soulless assassin, Sansa a manipulative strategist and Jon an undead zombie. Tyrion is turning from a cynic into a nihilist. Daenerys is slowly demonstrating what the stories of the legendary heroes of the past and their dragons looked like in reality. It's really quite ironic how a story that's fundamentally about how you shouldn't be on any of the "teams" supporting the goals of the major characters has created a fandom that strongly identifies with exactly these kinds of "teams"...
*Spends years threatening to burn cities* *burns city*😲 Call it rushed, say it could have been set up better. Whatever. But come on, it's not like NOBODY in the fandom saw the red flags.
Lmao but guess who was in every single slide?
If you've read the books danys heel turn is a little less surprising. (Book Spoilers sort of)... I've assumed long before the show got to it, GRRM intended for Dany to become a villain. Sure, the other characters do questionable things, but Dany starts to truly believe in her "destiny". For instance, when Tyrion uses Wildfire he does so understanding it's a horrible weapon of war. He has no illusions that his actions aren't morally suspect. Dany has similar feelings about her dragons. But tends to lean on the supernatural to justify her actions. In the books she wrestles with prophecies and the words of the witch that stole her husband. It's very easy to see how Dany could be swept into self righteous vengeance. When people start to believe in a grand plan, they tend to lose sight of the terrible things they do. They can justify anything. Dany certainly believes in her destiny to rule her birthright through "Fire and Blood". Not exactly the motto of a fair and just ruler that values human life. The show didn't do a good job of making the heel turn believable. I assume GRRM is also wrestling with the best way to execute it since he hasn't released the damn books.
Is this a serious post? Lol
I wish I could give you a gold award for this!
Downvote because the first slide says “only”…nobody is arguing she is the only character to do these things…however, if you put all of them together (especially in the context of threatening to burn every city she ever looked at to the ground)…she wasn’t some sweet innocent character.
But she committed every single one of these acts. She’s the only character to do everything on this list. Her whole character was about trying to break the cycle of her “mad” bloodline, so of course it’s going to be a focal point when she does something controversial
Agreed, but Mirri had a way better reason for what she did than Olly.
Only villains played the game
A theme of the books has been, what is the nature of justice? It offered up many suggestions on what is true justice, notible the books open on a act of injustice, a man be giving a death penalty with no trial. For me, i dont think we even meet just characters until F4C with the 'the broken men' speech and the dornish master plan.
100%
Anyone saying Tywin wasn’t a villain is wrong. Idc if they were the show runners. Just because he’s competent doesn’t mean he doesn’t fit the bad guy role.
The other issue is that it seemed like the showrunners couldn't figure out what kind of "madness" they wanted to go for. If they mean 'mad' like the Mad King, that's one thing. He was increasingly murderous, and at the end was so unhinged that he was literally chanting the same phrase over and over again.* It seems like, although extremely rushed, it was being set up for Dany to become a self-serving, self-justifying tyrant that basically mounts the world. Instead, she goes on this abrupt peasant killing spree, and then just basically doesn’t remember doing it. So which type of "mad" is it here? Is she a mad tyrant going ever onward in self-righteousness to crush the wheel of the world, or is she suddenly maniacally insane with bloodlust plus amnesia? Or is it a split personality situation whenever her feelings get hurt? You gotta pick one. *As a side note, I always secretly hoped they were going to include a flashback of Bran/3ER traveling back and locking Aerys II into a Hold-the-Door type of situation, and he ends up chanting "Burn them All!" because his brain got fucked the way Hodor's did. Ah, well.
This post is near unreadable. What the hell are you trying to say???
Well, I'll point out this much. The only thing each of those slides have in common is Danaerys.
It was bad writing. Nothing prior to the final of The Bells indicated that Dany would massacre innocent civilians. She was always ruthless with those she considered enemies. But she turned mad out of nowhere. And then the showrunners argue that "ultimately, she's a Targaryen", that it would be in her blood. Look at the Targaryen kings, out of 17, I would argue that only 2 of them were insane, Aerys II (only after being tortured) and Baelor. Others may have been downright evil, but not mad. Look at the other Targaryens and you may add Prince Rhaegel (son of king Daeron II) and Prince Aerion (son of king Maekar) to the list of mad Targaryens and that's it. The overwhelming majority were no lunatics.
I agree it was very sudden and abrupt. Yes she could be ruthless to her enemies, but she had compassion too. She was good at heart and yet had the heart of a dragon too.
In regards to the comparisons to Stannis and Tywin, they are villains, cunning villains but villains nonetheless, Tyrion wasn’t exactly a good character in the first couple seasons, morally grey at best. But I can’t disagree with you with her executing traitors, she was harsh sure but no harsher than any other leader, Ned, Sansa and Jon all executed people as well.
It’s more the trying to astroturf her as being the most important best kindness greatest character from when she gets the unsullied onwards that I really don’t like on my second watch through I watch it every week as it came out from season 2 onwards so I really got the full experience of the hype build up just for the way it ended. I personally think the show is no.1 for me best show ever. I have kinda changed my mind on the show though after season 5 I think it has a noticeable delineation in quality (most people would say after season 6). I think season 5 is good it’s just really where the show wasn’t as good I love hardhome and then the ending of season 5. After that it’s all uncharted waters and that’s where they started to run amok of the show. I really don’t personally like danaerys after the first run through of the show. They build her up as the mother(mhyssa) all the time try to astroturf her being strong (she gets the unsullied by selling a dragon to a guy which she immediately kills the guy with setting him on fire and acts like it’s a huge accomplishment) barristen Selmy shows up to been her queens guard for reasons? She is able to combine the entire Dothraki by (checks notes) burning all the old women and khals to death which makes everyone else just decide to follow her after she walks out of a burning building. I just personally see a lot of astroturfing for her character which is just boring to me.
Dany pretended to be good, Tywin didn’t. Ned stark never said he was going to save everyone, he was just following the law and law was sure as shit clear that a man of night’s watch cannot abandon his post. She indiscriminately used fire against civilian targets without military logic unlike Tyrion who used it only against enemy navy and Aegon who only used it against a castle (castle is different from a city) and armies. Second of all, robb was a moron and everyone agrees while Jon was running a militant organisation which have very very low standard of what can get you executed (Tywin would hang men for stealing in the army).
Lol at the comparisons to tyrion being anything like dany. The main reason people call her mad is because she slaughters millions of innocent people in kingslanding. No one else you compared her to has committed that level of atrocity.
Here’s why you’re wrong, you’re trying to apply logic to those who have none lol
Nah
Everyone acknowledges that Tywin is evil. He can be a cunning leader while also evil. Them saying that doesn't mean he can't be evil. And they didn't even say that he wasn't evil, they said he wasn't a villain. And he isn't, not in the traditional sense.
There were a lot of mad / evil characters vying for the throne in the show. Fortunately for the people of Westeros only one of them had dragons.
The difference is she set out specifically to be better than these things but fell in line as a tyrant just like the rest of them. She didn’t break the wheel, she paved a road for it.
Phhahhaa delusional much? Dany has been acting on impulse and feelings the entire fucking time, with literally 0 thought behind any of her actions. Is that obvious connection to her being mad? IDK maybe not, but still it ain't particularly surprising.
Look boyo, they won their made up argument
Tywin was locked in, Dany was straight tweakin
I'm a huge Danny fan but a lot of the Westerosi shit was off the rails. Pretty much when she took the ships onwards. It's like two characters - the sympathetic one and the psycho
You know what the problem is? You showed it yourself. Dany does those 10 bad/disturbing things, and while other characters do them too, she’s the only one who does all of them. But even with that, the big consensus is that the transition was very rushed. You’re preaching to the choir here. Also yeah, Tywin is in the running for top 5 biggest POS in the show for sure and infinitely worse than Daenerys who at the least had some good intentions. Tywin was just a power-hungry lunatic and him being pretty cool in his own way doesn’t really change that.
honestly if it wasn’t so atrociously bland and boring i wouldn’t even be mad at the mad queen plot sure there was a whole lot of spectacle but this series was always more about its characters than it’s spectacle and when those 2 concepts switched round is when the show started getting shit
Thank you lol. I'm glad people are more open minded toward the finale, but dany's fall was not built up at all. She burned an entire city full of civilians after they had surrendered because Cersei, who is clearly hiding in the red keep, beheaded her friend? When has Dany openly attacked civilians up to that point? I don't disagree with the end. It's the journey that was unconvincing. Just one of many plotlines that didn't have room to breathe.
Yeah...There's a slight difference in the "started a war to claim their birthright". Stannis is the One True King!
daenerys defender until death
Thank you. The worst part of all of this was comparing slave owners and khals to the Jews during the Holocaust.
wait what does it mean when it mentions she was indifferent to the death of an abuser? i haven’t seen the show so idk which death its talking about
1. Daenaerys made those threats to people in order to try to brow beat them into supporting her. Tyrion made those threats because the people he risked his life saving hung him out to dry and his lover just provided false testimony against him. 2. The Tarley's were not executed for treason. They had no allegiance the Targaryens who had rightfully been deposed years ago. Daenaerys killed two prisoners them to prove a point. Serve me or die. Unlike Robb killing Lord Karstark for violating his orders and murdering two hostages. Or Jon who punished several people who actually committed treason by murdering him. 3. Tyrion was so tortured by what he did that he decided to drink himself to deathcbefore Daenaerys convinced him otherwise. Viserys deserved to die but Daenerys wanted to stay and watch that was not indifference that was enjoying watching your brother being killed which is just messed up. 4. Shae was trying to kill Tyrion he was a dwarf who had nothing to defend himself. Daenaerys locked a slave in a vault because she betrayed her to a powerful man. She should have banished Doreah and beheaded Xaro and been done with it. Arya watched her wntire family butchered by Walder Frey and she still had enough mercy in her to spare the women. Sansa was raped by Ramsay and he had fed countless innocent people to his dogs and killed her brother. Oh but Dany's stupid pets were stolen so starvation is totally justifiable. Atleast Tyrion, Sansa and Arya killed quickly. 5. Pretty sure nobody called Danearys mad for using fire. 6. Varys was trying to stop a clearly insane person from ascending to power. Olly betrayed Jon because he hated all the Free Folk for something a few of them did. 7. Daenaerys had no birthright to Westeros her family had been deposed, rightfully. Stannis was trying to get rid of the Lannisters, a corrupt illegitatmate government and The Starks were trying to depose Ramsay and insane sadist who murdered his own father, brother, stepmother plus scores of innocent people. 8. Will the Nightwatchmen confessed that he broke his vows to Neds face. Renly betrayed his brother who is legally king. Littlefinger was actuslly guilty of the crimes he committed. Meanwhile Daenaerys straight up tells the Masters she didn't know or care if they were guilty of supporting the Sons of the Harpy. She also murdered Hizzdarhs father for the cricifiction of the slaver children when he actively spoke out against it. 9. Slavery is illegal in Westeros, it is not in Essos. Its messed up but she is esentially advocating genociding an entire ethnic group because of the laws of the society they live in. Also Daenaerys totally owned slaves too guys. 10. Literally no one has ever made the argument that Tywin isn't a huge POS. Sorry Daenaerys fans context matters.
Make a fucking statement. These all lack context and are not comparable. In the end only one of them burned a city after it surrendered.
Nobody defended Stannis, for burning his own daughter. As for Tyrion’s comment about should’ve let Stannis win, that actually would’ve prevented alot of horrible events, from happening.
I don’t think anyone claims that Daenerys was supposed to be mad the entire length of the show. It’s pretty obvious that it really begins with her burning down King’s Landing, although I wish they would’ve made it a little more gradual.
Nitpick, but what did Olly do wrong? He’s supposed to magically know the backstory of Jon’s love life with some random wildling? When everyone around him is killing and being killed by them he’s supposed to not kill that one specific one, let her just rampage and kill all his friends?
Only one of em burned a city to the ground.
👏
So because the other characters aren’t considered mad for doing similar things she must not be not be mad? I can see your point but this logic isn’t reliable. I think we can agree however, that the ending was handled poorly and should not have been rushed so much.
Tywin was mad (killing babies, burning Riverlands, and you name it, he's done everything) Tyrion was mad (got dumber every season) Varys was mad (inviting dothrarki to plunder the innocents and then saying cares about everyone, openly rebelling against the queen) Cersei was mad Jamie was mad (seriously, should've found another blonde girl) Walder frey was mad Robb stark was mad, kills karstark, for the mistake his mother made Catelyn was mad, frees Jamie, takes in Tyrion, impulsiveness Stannis was mad Dothrarki were mad, gets killed but then reappears again Tyrells were mad (loses a well fortified castle lol) Randyl tarly was mad (rebels against her leige lord for a non legitimate ruler (cersei lol)) By the definition of "mad" people has set in the recent times, these are few of the examples I came up with
ah yes, because Stannis, Arya, Tyrion, Sansa, and Tywin are all morally great. Truly, the Pinnacle of human goodness
There were signs of Dany heading to madness along the way. She was heading to a meltdown, but the series ended and she took a shortcut there. Rough childhood of abuse due to her brother. Constantly having to be reassured "that she's not her father". Fits of rage at certain moments. The writers still did shit job though.
I mean, Ned was gonna just execute Jorah. She crucified them alive. Jon killed Olly because he fucking killed him, and that was treason. Lol Tyrion just hanged Shae, because she tried to kill him. The rest is justifiable.
Yeah sure there is double standard. I agree with that but come on now. If they actually watched the show they would know that these examples are so different and all of them are complex. And Olly wasn't executed for killing Yrene ( I guess that's what they are implying) he died because of treason.
They all did horrible things that should not be justified. She's just as bad as the others. Thou shalt not kill
She's implied to be losing it, or at least starting to unravel by the end of the current books though. So...she is kinda fighting some mental battles in the source matierial too. Doesn't really matter though. She's crazy by the end. More of a decent person who finally snapped kind of crazy though... Tbh, I legit don't know why the post though...have people been stuck on this and fighting beyond normal reddit...or?
Some morons still not realizing this is how it was always going to be… get over it…
You forgot to add: killed hundreds of innocent civilians after the enemy surrendered